segovia & barrios
nos...@invalid.nospam
Did he ever play his works in concert or privately?
Murray Lang
Barrios' music because it was "instinctive" and not the work of a musical
scholar (I'm paraphrasing here). It seems that Segovia was very insecure
about the stature of the classical guitar repertoir. It's the insecure who
are the worst snobs.
Murray
<nos...@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:0tj77ss701lfit6oo...@4ax.com...
Blue O'Connell
>Did he ever play his works in concert or privately?
I think back in those times Segovia was trying to evevate the reputation of the guitar beyond that of a gypsy instrument. Barrios was looked upon as a gypsy in those days which now is quite acceptable and even popular but it was not then. It seemed Segovia chose music that was already highly respected (Bach for example) among scholars and classical aficiandos to have transcribed and sought out composers who came from the same school of thought so to speak as the old masters. So Segovia may have been a bit of a snob as Murray said and yet he may have come upon this honestly since the mainstream was pretty snobby in regards to classical music. If you recall, his first concert in Carnegie Hall in NYC was considered pretty outrageous by some people then. To think of someone playing the music of Bach on the guitar was unheard of then! We have come a very very long way since then.
Perhaps Barrios could be seen as someone like Vincent Van Gough....someone who was scorned and not accepted and misunderstood during his lifetime but who now is seen as kind of a genius.
Blue
Blue O'Connell
>I think back in those times Segovia was trying to evevate the reputation of >the guitar beyond that of a gypsy instrument..
oops the word I meant to type is elevate....
Blue
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> >Why did Segovia never record any Barrios compositions?
> >Did he ever play his works in concert or privately?
>
> was looked upon as a gypsy in those days which now is quite acceptable
> and even popular but it was not then. It seemed Segovia chose music
> that was already highly respected (Bach for example) among scholars
> and classical aficiandos to have transcribed and sought out composers
> who came from the same school of thought so to speak as the old
> masters. So Segovia may have been a bit of a snob as Murray said and
> yet he may have come upon this honestly since the mainstream was
> pretty snobby in regards to classical music. If you recall, his first
> concert in Carnegie Hall in NYC was considered pretty outrageous by
> some people then. To think of someone playing the music of Bach on the
> guitar was unheard of then! We have come a very very long way since
> then.
>
> Perhaps Barrios could be seen as someone like Vincent Van
> Gough....someone who was scorned and not accepted and misunderstood
> during his lifetime but who now is seen as kind of a genius.
>
> Blue
>
>
I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his
lifetime. Maybe not in Carnegie Hall, but since when did U.S. become
the center of classical guitar world? Barrios's work may not have been
played by Segovia, but many very famous guitarists played his works. I
wonder if Doc can add some facts here, and shed some light on this
subject. I was told by a very knowledgeable guitarist that Barrios'
work was even popular among some guitarists (no Segovia students among
them). Oh, and by the way! I bet that the Old man felt INFERIOR to
Barrios...lets face it, Barrios was a VERY good composer, but he also
was a hell of a good gitarist -- I bet Segovia saw Barrios as
competition (nobody objected to Barrios' work there except Segovia).
Oh, and by the way, Barrios was not a gypsy in ANY sense of the word.
Konstantin
Blue O'Connell
lifetime. Maybe not in Carnegie Hall, but since when did U.S. become
the center of classical guitar world? Barrios's work may not have been
played by Segovia, but many very famous guitarists played his works. I
wonder if Doc can add some facts here, and shed some light on this
subject. I was told by a very knowledgeable guitarist that Barrios'
work was even popular among some guitarists (no Segovia students among
them). Oh, and by the way! I bet that the Old man felt INFERIOR to
Barrios...lets face it, Barrios was a VERY good composer, but he also
was a hell of a good gitarist -- I bet Segovia saw Barrios as
competition (nobody objected to Barrios' work there except Segovia).
Oh, and by the way, Barrios was not a gypsy in ANY sense of the word.
Konstantin
First of all, I never said U.S. WAS the center of classical guitar...I
was talking about when Segovia first started performing in U.S. It was
pretty new to U.S. and the classical community here in U.S. viewed people
in Paraguay and those countries as gypies...I'm not saying this is true
that Barrios was a gypsy but he did dress up like an Indian and was quite
outlandish and maybe was too much for the U.S. snobs. Segovia undoubltely
did see Barrios as a threat since he was a very accomplished player and
composer. But I also thought he did not play his music because he was trying
to educate the
American public that classical music as in Bach can be played on the
guitar. If you will look in your dictionary....at least some years ago,
the guitar was considered a folk, gypsy instrument and not at all viewed
in the same respect that the violin or piano was. Segovia was trying to
change this and that is just how he went about it. Now--times have changed
greatly and for the better cause the most of the best and most progressive
music written for the guitar is from Latin America--it always has been
this way. Also, when I said Barrios was a gypsy I am not meaning this in
a derogatory way...gypsy music is great! I think of Barrios as kind of
a gypsy in that he was a bit wild and on the edge and ahead of his time.
He was very sophisticated in a very different way but not in a way that
American gringos could appreciate 30-40 years ago. It shows that times
have changed a lot and for the better that these views are no longer held
here.
Michael Barre
(which
at $40/seat was a total ripoff). After the concert, Chris granted told
us he was asked to answer a few questions about the maestro. I raised my
hand and told him that I had read Richard Stover's book about Barrios
titled,
"Six Silver Moonbeams," and that the author had suggested that Segovia had
treated Barrios as less than an equal, while Barrios was kind and gracious
to
Segovia. I asked Parkening to comment on this and Segovia's relationship
with Segovia. Parkening (in characteristic fashion, based on my previous
experience with him) received the question perfunctorily, and acknowledged
that he was familiar with Barrios, but said he couldn't comment on Segovia's
relationship with Barrios. This remark, along with the mediocre concert,
convinced me to never again waste my time or money on another Parkening
concert.
<nos...@invalid.nospam> wrote in message
news:0tj77ss701lfit6oo...@4ax.com...
DTuttle996
>relationship with Barrios.
Why should he HAVE to comment on this?
(Esp. if he has no info.)
Theresa Dunnington
intelligent questio I have seen on the net yet. I do not know. I think
Segovia was just in love with alot of Bach's stuff. I love Segovia and
then Parkening's cover of Bach's "Cello Suite #1" transcribed for
guitar. Absolutely one of the most beautiful songs. Perhaps no time to
do Barrios. SPanish guitar can get kind of pretentous. P
git...@webtv.net
But what if we allready know "cello suite #1"?
Please, tell me!! I'm lost here!!!!!
I have this sudden urge to play spanish music
and I don't know what to do!!
Gordon Bradley
BBC radio 3. Michael Jesset asked Segovia two interesting questions: What
do you think of the Concierto de Aranjuez. and What did you think of
Barrios?
In reply to the second question Segovia said that he had met Barrios several
times and that he regarded him as a very good player ( and judging from the
seriousness of his voice, he really meant it ). Segovia had tried to get
Barrios to switch from steel strings to gut strings - without success, and
this had irritated Segovia. From what I can remember of the interview
Segovia went on to discuss Barrios's protruding lip and how it had a very
negative effect on Barrios's self-confidence. Segovia described how he
once pulled his own lower lip over his top lip, and said to Barrios "so
what?".
I think that Segovia really liked the guy - a lot! The interview gave the
impression that Segovia regarded Barrios as more of a popular musician than
a serious classical one, and I think that is why Segovia steered away from
Barrios's music. For that reason I suppose you could say that the great
man was a bit of a snob at times.
I suppose some of you are now wondering what Segovia said about the
Aranjuez. His words were something like this: Rodrigo gave his concerto to
the trombone, the oboe, etc. but anyway he later wrote for me the delicious
Fantasia para un gentilhombre. He went on to say that although the Aranjuez
had been written with him in mind, he had been in South America at the time
of its completion, and that the concerto was eventually dedicated to his
compatriot Regino Sainz De La Maza. I got the distinct feeling that
Segovia didn't like it very much.
Gordon
nos...@invalid.nospam
<gor...@bradl7868.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Wow that's really neat, do you know if there is a copy
of this interview lying around BBC archives or whatnot?
Gordon Bradley
nos...@invalid.nospam wrote in message
<0oql7ssaoc8nio85k...@4ax.com>...
>On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 22:27:37 -0000, "Gordon Bradley"
><gor...@bradl7868.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Wow that's really neat, do you know if there is a copy
>of this interview lying around BBC archives or whatnot?
>
>>>>
of obtaining a copy of the interview, or maybe getting a chance to listen to
it again privately. I received a quick reply, and have been advised to
write to BBC Sound Archives, Broadcasting House, London, W1A 1AA. I will
let you know the outcome. If possible, I will ask the BBC to broadcast the
interview again. I might then be able to post a transcript on the
newsgroup.
It is possible that the interview is not in the archives - that would be a
great shame.
Gordon
William Jennings
Konstantin Litovsky wrote:
"
I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his
lifetime. Maybe not in Carnegie Hall, but since when did U.S.
become
the center of classical guitar world? Barrios's work may not have been
played by Segovia, but many very famous guitarists played his works.
I
wonder if Doc can add some facts here, and shed some light on this
subject."
Hi Konstantin,
You are very correct in this. I have a list of some of the guitarist who played his works. I only concerned myself with collecting his works and learning the techniques, specifics of the interpretations and what others ( who knew him and those times ) could tell me about him.
There is misinformation, which just because it is published, lends a certain credence to the authors notwithstanding it's accuracy.
K L wrote:
"Perhaps Barrios could be seen as someone like Vincent Van
> Gough....someone who was scorned and not accepted and misunderstood
> during his lifetime but who now is seen as kind of a genius.
I like this but remember la gente loved him and he was widely accepted
in the Latin countries notwithstanding Segovia and his
devoted followers.
I am making an arrangement of " Vincent " ( Don Mclean song known as Starry, Starry Night )
"Starry, starry night
Flaming flowers that brightly blaze
Swirling clouds in violet haze
Reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue
Colors changing hue
Morning fields of amber grain
Weathered faces lined in pain
Are soothed beneath the artist's loving hand..
And,
Starry, Starry night
Portraits hung in empty halls
Frameless heads on nameless walls
With eyes that watch the world and can't forget
Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes
The silver thorn, a bloody rose
Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think of Barrios in these words and sure wish I could find the exact vibrations to express it. Sometimes I work on these for years. Things Barrios might have tossed off in a lesson.
Barrios will be remembered for the next few hundred years for what he left us, beneath those loving hands.
IMO, that's all that counts. I think you may turn out to be a very good guitarist.
doc
Blue O'Connell wrote:
>
> >Why did Segovia never record any Barrios compositions?
> >Did he ever play his works in concert or privately?
>
> I think back in those times Segovia was trying to evevate the
> reputation of the guitar beyond that of a gypsy instrument. Barrios
> was looked upon as a gypsy in those days which now is quite acceptable
> and even popular but it was not then. It seemed Segovia chose music
> that was already highly respected (Bach for example) among scholars
> and classical aficiandos to have transcribed and sought out composers
> who came from the same school of thought so to speak as the old
> masters. So Segovia may have been a bit of a snob as Murray said and
> yet he may have come upon this honestly since the mainstream was
> pretty snobby in regards to classical music. If you recall, his first
> concert in Carnegie Hall in NYC was considered pretty outrageous by
> some people then. To think of someone playing the music of Bach on the
> guitar was unheard of then! We have come a very very long way since
> then.
>
> Perhaps Barrios could be seen as someone like Vincent Van
> Gough....someone who was scorned and not accepted and misunderstood
> during his lifetime but who now is seen as kind of a genius.
>
> Blue
>
>
I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
"OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a _long_
list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where and what.
Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?"
OK Mo. This reminds me of being in deposition. The rules are you can answer
the questions, say you don't recall or don't know. I won that case by
refusing to answer a question and yes they took me before a judge where I
answered that question
to their absolute dismay..........documented forever. How about for starters
Llobet, A. Diaz and Godoy....just a taste.
Before I go further:
By Juan C. Anido. In "La Guitarra", Buenos Aires, Year I, No. 2, December
1923. Page 27.
AGUSTIN BARRIOS. Tres conciertos tenía anunciados el señor
Agustín Barrios, en el salón "La Argentina", de los cuales sólo realizó uno.
El distinguido guitarrista paraguayo ha tenido, pues, poca
fortuna.
Y ello, en gran parte, puede deberse al concepto artístico
moderno que en nuestro público existe de la guitarra. El señor
Barrios, que se presenta a la vez como ejecutante, compositor y
folklorista, no es, en realidad, un verdadero exponente de
ninguno de los tres aspectos aludidos. Como guitarrista no carece de interés,
pues tiene temperamento,
pero en ningún caso puede
admitirse su figuración entre los concertistas de nota, malgrado una
innovación que retende introducir en el
arte guitarrístico.
Esta innovación consiste en substituir las tres cuerdas de
registro agudo, (prima, segunda y tercera) que en la guitarra
clásica son de tripa, por otras de alambre de acero. Pero el
señor Barrios, al incurrir en tan trave falta contra la cultura
artística y el buen gusto, no tiene siquiera el mérito de la
novedad: la tan desdichada modificación es utilizada por los
«tocadores» italianos, y por la mayoría de los «tocadores» de
francachelas populares. Como compositor, tampoco ofrece el señor Barrios
características salientes. No
puede admitirse, ni
remotamente, que sus obras lleguen a formar parte del buen
repertorio guitarrístico. Carecen de valor musical y hasta de
originalidad. Junto a brevísimos destellos que anuncian ideas de relativo
interés, aparecen, apagándolos,
períodos vulgarísimos
que se prolongan con exceso. Y como folklorista, pensamos que el cancionero
ibero-americano espera a
otro investigador de mayor
enjundia y conocimientos. Todo lo escrito no pretende, ni mucho
menos, indicar la carencia de cualidades innatas en el señor
Barrios: quiere significar que éstas de poco sirven si no las
sustenta la preparación superior.
Now I'm going to have dinner and chew on this a bit.
doc
> William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Konstantin Litovsky wrote:
> >
> >"
> >I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his
> >lifetime. Maybe not in Carnegie Hall, but since when did U.S. become
> >the center of classical guitar world? Barrios's work may not have been
> >played by Segovia, but many very famous guitarists played his works. I
> >wonder if Doc can add some facts here, and shed some light on this
> >subject."
> >
> >Hi Konstantin,
> >
> >You are very correct in this. I have a list of some of the guitarist who
> >played his works.
>
> OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
> _long_ list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where
> and what. Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?
> Sinopoli? Prat? Sagreras? Terzi? Albert? Robledo? Yupanqui? Brondi?
> Mozzani? The operative word in Konstantin's statement above is that he
> knows for a fact that it was "well performed." What does that supposed
> to mean?
>
> Several years ago, I posted here a review of a Barrios concert in
> Buenos Aires in 1925, written by Juan Anido (father of Maria Luisa)
> and published in the first issue of his Guitarra magazine. I don't
> have it archived on this machine, and the floppies (and the original
> magazine from which it was scanned) is 17 steps away in the basement.
> Not easy with crutches, so it will have to wait, unless someone can
> lay their hands on it in cyberspace someplace. But believe me, in
> 1925, in Buenos Aires, Barrios' impact on his contemporaries was
> negligible. Actually, the general tenor of the Anido review, was not
> all that far from my own recent review of you know who. Of course,
> things may have changed from 1925 until his death, but the mere fact
> that few of his compositions were published during his life time,
> indicates to me that he was not exactly a house hold word in those
> days.
>
> Matanya Ophee
> Editions Orphée, Inc.,
> 1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
> Columbus, OH, 43235-1226
> Phone: 614-846-9517
> Fax: 614-846-9794
> Check out the Orphée Catalogue at:
> http://www.orphee.com
> Including the on-line guitar magazine titled: Guitar And Lute Issues
Matanya Ophee
>
>
>Konstantin Litovsky wrote:
>
>"
>I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his
>lifetime. Maybe not in Carnegie Hall, but since when did U.S. become
>the center of classical guitar world? Barrios's work may not have been
>played by Segovia, but many very famous guitarists played his works. I
>wonder if Doc can add some facts here, and shed some light on this
>subject."
>
>Hi Konstantin,
>
>You are very correct in this. I have a list of some of the guitarist who
>played his works.
OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
_long_ list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where
and what. Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?
Sinopoli? Prat? Sagreras? Terzi? Albert? Robledo? Yupanqui? Brondi?
Mozzani? The operative word in Konstantin's statement above is that he
knows for a fact that it was "well performed." What does that supposed
to mean?
Mo, I will return to the above later ( important girlfriend stuff in a few minutes.)
Several years ago, I posted here a review of a Barrios concert in
Buenos Aires in 1925, written by Juan Anido (father of Maria Luisa)
and published in the first issue of his Guitarra magazine
The operational fact _published in the first issue of his
Guitarra magazine
< Snip unrelated data>
But believe me, in
1925, in Buenos Aires, Barrios' impact on his contemporaries was
negligible.
As the analogy of Konstantin so aptly demonstrated.
As I relate to " Like the strangers that you've met
The ragged men in ragged clothes. "
As I recall, doc didn't say anything about the "impact on his contemporaries". No, not a mumbling word did I say about the impact the gallant Barrios had on his contemporaries.
Actually, the general tenor of the Anido review,
So excruciatingly detailed and totally ignorant as history
has proven Jaun Anido, famous arbiter of
acceptability and musical worth of the Great Barrios we so
well know as truth. Is this authenticity that you so crave? Well
he did write it, this is true but was there any merit in this, his first
issue of his own publishing.
Hell you don't know, appears that he had very strong feelings.
Maybe he stole Jauns' girlfriend or his daughter
was attracted to Barrios. What ever his reason, history has
proven him dead wrong as to musical worth !
He is a nobody, a pimple in the history of the guitar. Not
unlike that other arbiter of good taste who wrote about
a guitarist from Japan who played in Toronto for Guitar Review in
the 80's. An arbiter assuming the guise of a concert guitarist, a
five year Segovia student.
I said his countrymen loved him! The countrymen of Barrios
were not the classical guitarist of Argentina.
This is a fact. I am a guitarist, not a Prover of Facts.
A guitarist who pokes fun at the conventions
and pretensions of classical performance in equal doses of irreverence
and seriousness.
You wrote:
"the mere fact that few of his compositions were published during his life time, indicates to me that he was not exactly a house hold word in those days." ( Mo, I think you might be showing the initial signs of Sometimer's disease).Barrios was not very concerned about writing them down Mo because he already knew them. Friends sometimes had to lock him up on their ranches and force him to write them down. What did Barrios care about writing them down, he could always write something new for himself.
I Shall Return,Wm. David Jennings
Master of the Useless
Cosmic Cowboy
Defender of Barrios, Flores & Godoy
aka doc Pinkomon
In the Cowboy Capital of the World
jou...@texas.net
http://ww2.thehoipolloi.com
Visit my Home Page for docs' remedy " Mojo Gold Tone Oil " and " Whose Your Daddy" Pink Stuff. ;-)
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
_long_ list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where
and what. Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?
Sinopoli? Prat? Sagreras? Terzi? Albert? Robledo? Yupanqui? Brondi?
Mozzani?
Yoo Hoo Hey Mo,
Wanna' play? Hope you aren't afraid I might be too rough for you.
O.K you directed me to ONE documented article.
I will counter with that document referenced on this NG
this past year ( while you were sleeping ) regarding
Pio Augstin Barrios, provided my myself to Larry Deack.
It was published on his web site, like you said " someone
can lay their hands on it in cyberspace someplace".
Here is documentation , guitarist programs a few words
from Llobet and some interesting observations regarding
Segovias' tonal color change after meeting The Greater Artist and primitive,
Barrios. When we listen to those old recording of his we need to
listen through and transcend the problems with recording, poor strings
and one takes, of those days. He was from the backwaters of
a remote quarter of the continent not a polished
concert performer from one of the strongest musical cultures in
the world at that time.
I dislike the term artist but I believe Great Artist are the antenna of the race. Many times they are not recognized in their time, the truly great artist have kept going and working notwithstanding the opinions and flavors of the month of academia. In spite of obloquy, derision and delay we rediscover our affection for them. I do not believe Sir Barrios wrote the highest quality music, Ponce is far superior but that it not the point, I love them both.
Mo, think about it, how many guitarist on this
NG know the names of the comprehending guitarist of that era
and the various parts they played: Mario
Parodi, Julio Martinez Oyanguren, Julio Iglesias, Domingo Pratt,
Abel Fleury, Adolfo V. Luna, Gimenez Manjon,
M. Llobet, teacher of Consuelo Mallo López, teacher of Sila
Godoy. You know I've only touched the surface of names. Of
these guitarist of who is on the concert programs, Cd's and publishers
top sellers today? Whose name appears most often on this NG.
Whose your Daddy, come on Mo whose your Daddy.
Now doc directs you toward the referenced documentation
of the Great Artist. One who had the vision but not the strings,
for the music guitarist large and small around the round globe, love
to play. Gut strings just didn't suit
the climate of Paraguay plus his hands perspired profusely.
He kept working and improving and wrote what some
call the most beautiful guitar music they ever heard before he died.
Much of his music is lost or in a few cases remains in private hands.
Have you heard all three of the " Divagacions" played well?
Your move,
doc
Matanya Ophee
>
>Whose your Daddy, come on Mo whose your Daddy.
Wrong question.
>
> Now doc directs you toward the referenced documentation of the Great
>Artist. One who had the vision but not the strings, for the music
>guitarist large and small around the round globe, love to play. Gut strings
>just didn't suit
>the climate of Paraguay plus his hands perspired profusely.
All of which may be true, all of which may be a moving testimony to
your committment to this music, and all of which is irrelevant to the
present discussion.
Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."
You said that: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
And I asked you to show us this list. So far, nothing.
Your insinuation that there must be some mutual exclusion between
one's being a "guitarist" and a "Prover of Facts," flies in the face
of the most basic requirement of human discourse--knowing that of
which you speak. I am not asking you to become a musicologist. I am
only asking you to tell us HOW DO YOU KNOW that which you claim to be
true.
Matanya Ophee
>As I recall, doc didn't say anything about the "impact on his
>contemporaries". No, not a mumbling word did I say about the impact the
>gallant Barrios had on his contemporaries.
Actually, you did. Let me remind you again:
Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."
You repsonded: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
That is a statment of support of Konstantin's claim to know for a fact
that Barrios work WAS well performed during his lifetime, IOW, had an
impact on his contemporaries. All I am trying to find out is what kind
facts Konstantin is talking about and you are supporting. Sila Godoy
playing a Barrios piece here and there, publicly, even if you could
document it, is still far from supporting a claim that the music was
"well performed during his lifetime."
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
> performed during his lifetime."
>
Hello, MO,
I was referring to the late thirties and forties, when I said "during
his lifetime" (dont be a pest -- the guy who told me may have been
mistaken my a few years here and there). What if his work was also
performed during the fifties? Is that too late for you?
Konstantin
Matanya Ophee
>Matanya Ophee wrote:
>>
>> Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
>> performed during his lifetime."
>>
>Hello, MO,
>I was referring to the late thirties and forties, when I said "during
>his lifetime" (dont be a pest -- the guy who told me may have been
>mistaken my a few years here and there). What if his work was also
>performed during the fifties? Is that too late for you?
Not too late for me, since I doubt, not having any real facts to deal
with, if this music was played by anybody who is anybody during the
50s. But now the cat is out of the bag. Someone told you whatever, and
you assumed, for whatever reason, that the guy who told you whatever
he did, really knew what he was talking about. This was enough for you
to say that you knew iut "for a fact." I am sorry, you did not know it
for a fact. You knew it for an interesting legend, nothing else.
To make a fact out of this, I will be a pest and ask you to provide
names, dates and supporting evidence. (Copies of programs, newpaper
reviews, etc.) Short of this, we are dealing with mythology and blind
beliefs, not with facts.
In this sense, your proclamations in defence of Barrios, are no better
nor worse of Blue's proclamations in support of Segovia. Same kind of
poppycock. Of course Barrios was not a gypsy. I don't think Blue would
ever recognize a true gypsy if he sat in her lap. You and I might.
Sergei Orekhov was one hell of a gypsy. Good friend of mine too.
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> To make a fact out of this, I will be a pest and ask you to provide
> names, dates and supporting evidence. (Copies of programs, newpaper
> reviews, etc.) Short of this, we are dealing with mythology and blind
> beliefs, not with facts.
>
Ok, MO, you are the one with all the facts here -- the people I know,
(who by the way know you, supposedly...does the name Dmitri Goryachev
mean anything to you?) dont have any of their archives here, so they
cant provide me with references. Next time I see him, I will ask for
more detail, if you wish, but I'm sure you are more than able to find
that for yourself.
Konstantin
P.S. I am not here in search of the ultimate truth -- for that matter, I
don't really care whether anybody performed Barrios. All that matters
is that we now know who he is, and we have his music.
William Jennings
I am using bold print so I can see the screen and no other reason.
I have noticed errors on my part in other messages because I just couldn't
see clearly. Also, you know I'm not taking this as seriously as it
may appear.
I do think this is important but not worth a pissing match.
doc
Matanya Ophee wrote:
. I am only asking you to tell us HOW DO YOU KNOW that which you claim
to be
true.
Proof on demand!
OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
_long_ list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where
and what. Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?
Sinopoli? Prat? Sagreras? Terzi? Albert? Robledo? Yupanqui? Brondi?
Mozzani?
I intend to disabuse you of this notion slowly, as Defender
of Barrios, since you demanded it be
fully documented. "Mimita", Juan Anidos' daughter
Maria Luisa Anido, performed Barrios
many time in concert. In 1963 she recorded Danza
Paraguay. Proof of documentation can
be provided instantly should you contest this.
You know her father studied with D. Prat while she studied
with Llobet.
Does her request for my playing of Barrios count also, while exiled?
It's going to be a long slow hanging for you Mr. Mo
Do you not recall I told you about meeting " old girlfriends
of Segovia who also knew Barrios".
Silas' older sister was a very close friend of
Segovia. The stories decorum keeps hushed. Same thing today
What's her name L. Boyd (21) and A. Lagoya a youthful
55 with another girlfriend in Paris. If you really want to know what
a man is like ask an old girlfriend and don't take at face value that stuff
in the newspapers and libraries.
Do you think her Daddy turned over in his grave when she did that ? I can hear him right now " that hussy recorded that indians music."
doc
P.S. I knew Mimita and have nothing but respect for
her memory.
Matanya Of wrote:
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>Whose your Daddy, come on Mo whose your Daddy.
Wrong question.
>
> Now doc directs you toward the referenced documentation of the Great
>Artist. One who had the vision but not the strings, for the music
>guitarist large and small around the round globe, love to play. Gut strings
>just didn't suit
>the climate of Paraguay plus his hands perspired profusely.
All of which may be true, all of which may be a moving testimony to
your committment to this music, and all of which is irrelevant to the
present discussion.
Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."You said that: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
And I asked you to show us this list. So far, nothing.
Your insinuation that there must be some mutual exclusion between
one's being a "guitarist" and a "Prover of Facts," flies in the face
of the most basic requirement of human discourse--knowing that of
which you speak. I am not asking you to become a musicologist. I am
only asking you to tell us HOW DO YOU KNOW that which you claim to be
true.
Matanya Ophee
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
"I am only asking you to tell us HOW DO YOU KNOW that which you claim to be"
Mo, have you not found that documentation I referred to earlier?
I have a lot of stuff but don't know how or have the equipment to
scan things and send them by e-mail. All kinds of stuff. At
the moment I have in my hands an article by Dr. Jose Roberto Bracamonte
B. I obtained in San Salvador, July
1977.
Title: Mangore, la tecnica y la musica de guitarra
I'm sure you know about the Venezuelan guitarist who performed his
music. I have this article
I got there by A. Lara which I can't lay my hands on this moment.
I will locate it in my disorder around here.
I can fax it to you tomorrow or anyone who can post it to the NG.
doc
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>Whose your Daddy, come on Mo whose your Daddy.
Wrong question.
>
> Now doc directs you toward the referenced documentation of the Great
>Artist. One who had the vision but not the strings, for the music
>guitarist large and small around the round globe, love to play. Gut strings
>just didn't suit
>the climate of Paraguay plus his hands perspired profusely.
All of which may be true, all of which may be a moving testimony to
your committment to this music, and all of which is irrelevant to the
present discussion.
Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."You said that: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
And I asked you to show us this list. So far, nothing.
William Jennings
I understand what Mo is doing and it is nothing less than that rigor
we use daily with the guitar, he is distinguishing fact from opinion.
His work is no different than ours, ritual purification. I for one
am amazed he has been so genteel in this little discussion and was prepared
to hunker down in the trenches for thermonuclear attacks. We are
supposed to question everything and take nothing at face value. It
takes some critical thought many
are not trained for including myself. However with Barrios
I feel I have not done too badly and made many notes, collected his music
in original copies some hand copied by myself and others I purchased.
In large part Barrios was forgotten by the classical guitar world in general. Not a great deal of documentation exist to my knowledge however I do have things I have never heard anyone else speak of to include Sila Godoy. Almost everything is in Spanish and I want to present the original documents, not translations and open that can of worms.
I have no qualms with Mos rigor. This is as it ought to be and he is very good at this.
I also think your heart is in the right place and those students may do as I did with some teacher. I would go to lessons with a sheet of paper taper to the back of my guitar. Down the center of the page I drew a line dividing it in half. On the right side I wrote down the facts ( as I perceived them), on the left side I just made a mark for the:
1. Opinions
2. Speculations ( sometimes intense )
3. Little stories about so and so.
4. What he didn't know ( in my estimation )
5. So and So.'s method
6. How much of my time was wasted by his not being prepared.
In a short time you can see what you are getting and it took me a
while to find good
and effective teachers. One of the first was J. Morel of Argentina
who lived in New York.
A very new and effective experience for me. Here was a man
more than prepared for the task. My first lesson lasted some three
hours and I was brain dead at the end.
He considered that a long hour lesson and would only accept the nominal fee.
The quality of teachers is determined by you. In these days one is stuck with a un. chair regardless. Some are excellent like Phillip Hii and S. Yates ( only two who come to mind this moment and known here). Others, have other agendas which do not concern you as much as economics and the bottom line. Some are just lazy and others just found a warm place to sit. It's a jungle out there and I would have been the kind that they would have just escorted out the doors with campus security. :-0
doc
Thomas F Brown
>
Mo's a historian, not a genealogist.
William Jennings
" Sila Godoy playing a Barrios piece here and there, publicly, even if you could document it, is still far from supporting a claim that the music was "well performed during his lifetime."
Doc, who has been heavily engaged in going though boxes today was simply shocked to hear this.
Sila Godoy gave complete concerts consisting of the music of Barrios
and himself. He recorded many records
thought central and south america in the old style used there.
A matrix would be made and pressings were issued
at various record manufactures in the 3rd world countries on a per
copy rate.
In 1978 one was recorded in Dallas, Texas with Turtle Records as I recall with several Barrios works.
Larry Deack has a copy of some five or six concert guitarist in various
latin countries performing complete
concerts of Barrios music which I sent him and can't seem to find
right now. This was posted to his web site.
What about the Barrios Festival's held every year in Mexico, El Salvador
and Paraguay. Have you ever attend
one of these?
Mo claimed:
Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed during his lifetime."
This is a logical fallacy; it begs the question of whether it is, in fact, necessary to have the specific facts on hand in order to comment on such things. Like a lot of people who tend to bristle at anything resembling a stereotype, you appear to have a bit of difficulty with the concept of generalizations.
I've never been to the North Pole, but I doubt you'd insist
that I had no business talking about Santa Claus just because I'd
never seen him with my own eyes. Let's be realistic here. ;-)
Here is something you may find interesting with more to follow.
CLARA CAMPESE INTERVISTA MARIA LUISA ANIDO
Di passaggio a Napoli, in occasione del Festival
"Classica e
Dintorni" (Ottobre 1989), Maria Luisa Anido si è rivelata una
persona disponibilissima al
dialogo con noi che già la conoscevamo da
tempo. Abbiamo
ritrovato la grande musicista ed una persona di qualità umane
meravigliose.
C. Campese : "Signora, Lei è entrata in contatto
con la
musica in tenera età; vuole raccontarci i suoi primi passi con
la
chitarra ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Mi sono avvicinata alla chitarra
a circa 7
anni, grazie a mio padre. Amava l'arte, era infatti un buon
pittore e si dilettava con la chitarra.
Allora ero molto piccola e quando papà riceveva
lezioni dal
Maestro Vincenzo Caprino, un italiano che si trovava a Buenos
Aires, adoravo ascoltarlo,
ma non volevo che mi vedesse e così mi nascondevo
dietro uno
scrittoio. Una volta, al termine di queste lezioni, presi la
chitarra in mano e suonai ciò
che avevo sentito. Avevo paura che a mio padre non
piacesse
per niente, invece fu contentissimo e cominciò egli stesso ad
insegnarmi la musica.
Quando avevo già imparato un po' di teoria
e suonavo appena,
mi presentò al maestro Domingo Prat, catalano, il primo che
aveva
portato la scuola
spagnola in Argentina. All'età di 11 anni
Prat mi presentò
ufficialmente al pubblico in due concerti." -
C. Campese : "Poi è diventata allieva prediletta
del Maestro
Miguel Llobet ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Sì, poco dopo, presi lezioni
da Llobet." -
C. Campese : "Lei ha formato anche un duo con Llobet.
Cosa
ricorda ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Llobet mi ascoltò e gli piacqui
molto, allora
avevo 13 o 14 anni. Poi mi mandò molta musica, appositamente
trascritta da lui per due
chitarre. In seguito con papà e Llobet, girai
tutta
l'Argentina e l' Uruguay. Lì, in duo, tenemmo numerosi concerti.
Purtroppo, a quei tempi, non si
usava che le ragazze viaggiassero da sole, come
al giorno
d'oggi, e quindi non potei seguire Llobet in Europa: mio padre,
infatti, a causas di impegni
di lavoro, non poté accompagnarmi." -
C. Campese : "Oltre a Llobet ha conosciuto anche
Villa-Lobos
e Barrios ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Villa-Lobos no, Barrios sì.
Ero molto piccola,
avevo 10 anni ed in casa si facevano riunioni musicali con molti
chitarristi. Una volta
venne anche Agustin Barrios, però, data la
mia età, non diedi
grande importanza all'evento. Soltanti in seguito me ne resi
conto e mi dispiacque, visto
che adoro la musica di Barrios!" -
C. Campese : "E di Segovia cosa ricorda ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Lo conobbi ad un mio concerto. Alla
fine,
quando venne a complimentarsi, scrutava meravigliato le mie mani,
minuscole rispetto alle
sue notevolmente grasse. Forse a questo era dovuto
il suo
mitico suono ... comunque da quel giorno mi chiamò sempre <la
piccolina>." -
C. Campese : "Sappiamo che Lei, oltre ad essere
un'eccellente
chitarrista, si è dedicata anche alla composizione..." -
M. L. Anido : "Studiai in conservatorio solfeggio,
armonia,
piano ed anche un po' di composizione. Ma la teoria della
composizione non mi ha mai
attratto molto. Non mi ritengo una compositrice,
non riesco a
comporre senza lo strumento alla mano. E' necessaria per me una
comunicazione
diretta con lo strumento, mentre il vero compositore
compone
sulla carta." -
C. Campese : "E la sua musica è ispirata
all'Argentina ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Sì, in un certo qual modo.
Però, quando
cominciai a viaggiare composi i < Preludios Nostalgicos > e la <
Cancion de Cuna >che già
non erano più di ispirazione argentina. Certamente
non perché
ho dimenticati la mia patria..." -
C. Campese : "Signora, girando un po' tutto il mondo,
ha
avuto modo di conoscere giovani chitarristi di tutti i paesi. Che
ne pensa della nuova
generazione ? " -
M. L. Anido : "E' straordinaria. Quando io ero giovane,
con
Llobet ridevamo, perché , se qualcuno riusciva a suonare lagrima
di Tarrega senza errori,
era già una cosa straordinaria. Ora vedo
che ovunque si suona
molto bene, a Cuba, per esempio e qui in Italia. In Spagna
stranamente il livello é più
basso. Penso comunque che qui in Italia ci sia una
quantità
di ottimi chitarristi." -
C. Campese : "E dei nuovi didatti ?" -
M. L. Anido : "Ora ce ne sono molti, differentemente
dalla
mia epoca. La chitarra ha avuto un esplosione e questo lo si deve
ad Andres Segovia, che
ha suonato nelle migliori sale di tutto il mondo
ed ha
lottato per creare la cattedra di chitarra nei conservatori.
Quando entrai nel Coservatorio
Nazionale e lì nacque la cattedra di chitarra,
qualcuno
diceva che era molto meglio studiare violino, piano o arpa. Però,
stranamente, agli esami c' era
sempre un "mondo" di chitarristi e pochissimi pianisti,
violinisti o arpisti ! Oggi la chitarra é uno strumento che
piace
anche al pubblico, perché parla
al cuore." -
C. Campese : "Forse per questo il popolo sud-americano
è più
vicino alla chitarra ? " -
M. L. Anido : "Ma ! Penso che ormai la chitarra
sia popolare
in tutto il mondo, da Cuba al Giappone, alla Russia. Ormai ci
sono chitarristi in ogni
parte del mondo forse anche in qualche igloo del
plo nord...!
La chitarra è lo strumento più amato nel mondo, forse
perchè é
molto intimo ed è come
la prolungazione sonora dell'anima umana : quello
che non si
può dire a parole lo si può esprimere con la chitarra."
-
C. Campese : "Cosa consiglierebbe, dunque ad un
giovene
chitarrista, che vuole intraprendere la carriera del concertista
? -
M. L. Anido : " Io credo che il consiglio più
utile per un
giovane sia sempre quello di rispettare il suo io interiore e la
sua personalità. I giovani devono
sì ascoltare i consigli altrui, ma devono
suonare a secondo
del proprio sentire. Penso che l'artista che si impone nel tempo
sia quell dalla personalità
ben distinta. Prendiamo ad esempio Andres Segovia
: é
inconfondibile. E lo stesso vale per la pittura ed ogni arte. Ho
ragione o torto ? Bisogna
essere sinceri con se stessi per poterlo essere
con gli
altri. Se uno non é sincero non può far musica perché
trasforma
quest' ultima in qualcosa di
falso." -
C. Campese : "Può adesso dirci qual'é
il suo rapporto con il
pubblico ? " -
M. L. Anido : "Io sono una persona che non ha paura
di
niente, nenche di morire, ma l'unica cosa che temo è il pubblico.
Ricordo che a Leningrado
dovevo suonare in un teatro enorme, esaurito fino
all'ultimo
ordine di posti. Mentre mi dirigevo verso la sedia la mia intima
volontà era quella di
ritornare indietro. Poi mi rassenerai, pensando
che certo non
mi avrebbero ucciso." -
C. Campese : " Ma nel momento in cui inizia a suonare
Lei
dimentica la presenza del pubblico ? " -
M. L. Anido : "Bene l'impatto con il pubblico diventa
un'abitudine al terzo i quarto concerto consecutivo. Se passa
invece molto tempo allora é diverso
ed allora é sempre come se fosse la prima
volta.
C. Campese : "Un' ultima domanda: se tornasse indietro,
a
sette, otto anni, rifarebbe tutto quello che ha fatto? " -
M. L. Anido : "Ma ! Io ho un desiderio tutto particolare
:
essere astronauta...o eploratore, ma forse quest'ultimo é un
po'
pericoloso, si incontrano tigri
e leoni ! Invece navigare nello spazio é
molto bello e per me
non é rischioso : non ho paura del cielo né di volare.
Comunque,
per quanto riguarda la
chitarra, non ho alcun rimpianto. Ripercorerei il
cammino
nello stesso e identico modo." -
C. Campese : " Signora, La ringrazio dell' intervista
e spero
di riascoltarla al più presto in concerto, qui a Napoli." -
Napoli, 22 ottobre 1989
Additionally, you stressed _ well performed . This is easy,
of course Sila Godoy and Signora Anido
performed it well. ;-) Did you harbor the deep suspicion it
was _Unwell performed_. I think not.
Dr. Pinky Pokemon
Messycoligist
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source
of mind- boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it."
Matanya Ophee wrote:
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>As I recall, doc didn't say anything about the "impact on his
>contemporaries". No, not a mumbling word did I say about the impact the
>gallant Barrios had on his contemporaries.
Actually, you did. Let me remind you again:
Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."You repsonded: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
That is a statment of support of Konstantin's claim to know for a fact
that Barrios work WAS well performed during his lifetime, IOW, had an
impact on his contemporaries. All I am trying to find out is what kind
facts Konstantin is talking about and you are supporting. Sila Godoy
playing a Barrios piece here and there, publicly, even if you could
document it, is still far from supporting a claim that the music was
"well performed during his lifetime."
Matanya Ophee
Konstantin Litovsky
>
> Mo claimed:
>
> Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
> performed during his lifetime."
>
Allright already! Doc: even if I was misled by my source, doesn't
mean mo can just rub it in. So I thought that Barris lived into the
sixties, so what? I just realized that he died in 1940's, and I was
told that his music was performed in the fifties. I think this settles
the argument.
Konstantin
P.S. The name Anido was mentioned...(Maria Luisa?). When did she play
Barrios?
William Jennings
María Luisa Anido interviewed by María Isabel Siewers
(Classical Guitar, August 1988)
MARIA LUISA ANIDO was 80 on 26 January 1987. Now in her 82nd year, she still
enjoys an active life,
appearing at many festivals and guitar events. She has spent much of her
time in Spain, where she was a pupil of
Domingo Prat and, later, of Miguel Llobet, but in 1987 she returned to her
native Argentine for several months. It
was there that María Isabel not only plays the guitar but also conducts
interviews. The talk was broadcast on 11
and 18 June 1987. Since this interview took place, María Luisa Anido has
gone to live in Havane at the invitation
of the Government of Cuba, who have generously provided her with a pleasant
apartment high up in a modern
block, with a balcony that gives a breathtaking view across old Havana and
the splendour of the bay. There she
receives her guitar students, and there I had the pleasure of meeting her
during the 4th Havana International
Guitar Festival. On the day I left Cuba she was made Doctor Honoris Causa at
the National Institute of Art, an
honour she was delighted to receive but which her long service to the guitar
surely entitles her to. María Luisa
Anido does not look her 81 years. We wish her very many more years of
perennial youth. CC (Colin Cooper, red.)
MARIA ISABEL SIEWERS: There is a surprise in our programme today, and we are
especially glad that María
Luisa Anido, the great and beloved Argentine guitarist ( 'Mimita', as we
know her), is here to talk with us.
MARIA LUISA ANIDO: Thank you, María Isabel. You shouldn't say those things
about me. I'm very happy to be
here with you, and to be in contact with the Argentine people, whom I love
so much.
I know that many people who are interested in the guitar and in music will
be grateful for being able to listen to
you. Before beginning to talk about you, Mimita, I would like to mention
that after the recording of the last
programme, Andrés Segovia died. As you had met him many times, I would like
you to tell us something about your
friendship with him, and your opinion of him as a musician and as a
guitarist.
Well, I could explain it in short by saying that all of us, guitarists and
luthiers, should erect a gold monument for all
he did for the guitar. He brought it to the most illustrious places and
penetrated them at the same level as pianists
or violinists. He stimulated many composers to write for the guitar and so
took on an enormous task. I revere him.
You were a child when you first met him, weren't you?
Yes. It was his first tour here. I was eleven, and went to listen to him. I
always remember one small detail: I was
very small for my age (you wouldn't think it, seeing me now!), very thin and
with small hands. Segovia said 'Hola,
pequeña!, and put my hand between his hands. They felt like two cushions,
they were so fleshy. Perhaps that was
part of the secret of the prodigious tone he got.
I remember that, and the fingers that tapered gradually towards the tips.
We used to say that all fat people have a good tone.
We should find a special diet for thin guitarists. When did you meet Segovia
again?
About 1950, when my mother died. I met him in Italy. He used to play a lot
there, and it's also the country I used to
visit most, every year. Segovia used to tell his disciples: 'If you are near
the place where I'm staying, come and see
me and I will give you lessons". I was staying at a hotel with a very dear
friend, Elena Padovani, who was a pupil of
Segovia, a colleague of John Williams and of Alirio Díaz. They had all
studied at the Accademia Chigiana. Elena
went to meet Segovia at his hotel. Suddenly the telephone rang, and a
strange voice asked me: 'Como te va?' I
wondered who it could be. It didn't sound like an Italian or an Argentine
accent, so I asked: 'Who is speaking?'
'Andrés Segovia' was the answer. I said: 'How are you, Maestro?' He told me:
'Please, call me Andrés, not
Maestro'. It was very difficult for me to approach him in that way.
During the last years, did you meet him again while you were living in
Spain?
No, I never met him there, I met him other times, in Italy or in Frankfurt,
the last time being in 1978.
Yes, the easiest way for artists to meet is while travelling....
...And a very pleasant way, of course.
Going back to your childhood - you began playing the guitar when you were
five, I believe?
People exaggerate a little. I began when I was about seven. My father was a
great aficionado of the guitar and of
music in general. He studied with an Italian teacher, Caprino, who had a
very special way of teaching the Tárrega
school. Later he studied with Domingo Prat. By that time I was taking his
guitar secretly and plucking the strings.
When he gave lessons, I used to hide under his desk, in order to listen.
When he discovered me, instead of getting
angry he understood that it was my vocation and began to teach me. When I
was more or less ready, he asked Prat
to give me lessons.
How old were you when you studied with Prat?
Seven years.
Had Prat arrived from Spain?
Yes, I'm almost sure he was the first to take the Spanish school to the Río
de la Plata. He had studied with Llobet
and Tárrega.
And he left a method that is still used here, and wrote a well-known
dictionary. When was your first concert?
There was a guitar society that my father had founded, and in the Salón
Argentina, which has a long history among
guitarists -everyone played there- I gave my first concert when I was
nine. I think I only played about eight
pieces. My 'debut' concert was after that. I was twelve when Prat presented
me in two concerts.
I am looking at two reviews here. One, about your first concert in
Argentina, was published in La Naçion, and
says: 'The nine-year old M.L.Anido has commendable promise, because of her
art, school, expression, and her
precise playing'. And La Prensa says after your next concert: 'Let us notice
her natural talent, her musical
intuition. M.L.Anido is a born artist; such talent is not to ba aquired by
study. Moreover, her love for the guitar is
perhaps the reason why she can dominate technique so easily, allied of
course to her discipline in practice'. I've
also heard that in your father's house there was a very interesting cultural
atmosphere.
That's true. Many artists, poets, painters and especially guitarists came to
the house. For example, Emilio Pujol
and his wife, who visited us many times, Regino Sainz de la Maza, Miguel
Llobet during all his visits he made to
Argentina, Josefina Rodeblo -
Tell me something about her.
She was Tárrega's last pupil, and had an excellent technique. She played
without nails. (Someone told me that in
the last years of his life, Tárrega suffered a kind of disease in his nails,
and therefore cut them short). Like Pujol,
Josefina studied with him during this period. However, she had a very strong
tone, in spite of her very thin hands.
She was a refined player. I still remember her magnificent tremolo.
You mentioned Llobet's visits to your home. What kind of teaching did you
receive from him?
I first met Llobet in 1918, soon after Segovia came to Argentina. He
listened to my playing (it seems he liked it),
and after returning to Barcelone he sent my father his transcriptions, for
guitar duo, of the pieces he wanted to play
with me. There were about 15 to 18 of them.That was enough to fill two
programmes. It was a varied repertoire,
including Julian Aguirre's 'Gato'. Llobet was a very amusing teacher; he had
a great sense of humour, and enjoyed
jokes a lot. One could think of him more as a companion than as a teacher.
We travelled a lot around Argentina,
with my father.
Did you and he work only with the duo pieces?
With the solo pieces also -
Can you describe his technique?
Above all he was a great musician. In the evenings, when he came home, he
used to play the piano - Rubinstein's
'Romance', some transcriptions of parts of 'La Bohème' -. As a guitarist he
practised very little. His practise was a
mental one. I sometimes observed him in trains during our travels; he kept
his eyes closed, and I knew he was
thinking about his music, because I could see his fingers moving.
Nobody, hearing him play, would think that he didn't practice a lot.
He was a virtuoso. He had a tremendous facility. But he didn't enjoy that
kind of musical 'sport' that many young
players like nowadays: speed just for the sake of speed, to see who runs the
fastest. He was very serious and
correct. The transcriptions he did, for example of Falla's El Amor Brujo,
were based on the orchestral score, and
he tried to imitate the orchestra's colours.
Did his tone have any special characteristics?
He played with nails, but filed rather short. He could play the fastest and
most difficult pieces, such as the Scherzo
Vals.
Do you know why he chose the guitar if he also played the piano?
Well, I don't want to deny the piano's beauty, but the guitar has a special
enchantment. As Berlioz said, it is a
'small orchestra', a surprise box. You never get to the end of the all the
different tones - honestly, without seeking
strange things, which sometimes happens nowadays. Perhaps that's the reason.
I have a review that appeared in 'La Guitarra', the magazine your father
founded. It's about the Cançiones
Catalan, and reads: 'Everyone knows the succes that Llobet gained in the
particular genre that he began,
harmonising for guitar the popular songs of his land. After listening to
them, the reviewers of the important
musical centres have expressed the most justified praise. And not only those
who know the rich folklore of
Catalunya but also those who are not acquainted with the popular lyrical art
of the beautiful Mediterranean
region. Mr Llobet has widened guitar literature with the edition of four of
these popular songs,'
He had another extraordinary talent: improvising. we were at a party (he
enjoyed the social life very much,
especially between friends and musicians), and he asked for suggestions:
three notes, and the type of piece.
Someone would suggest a mazurka, for example, or a theme and variations. He
would think a while, and then play
on his guitar a mazurka based on those three notes. But he hadn't got the
discipline to write it down. It would
remain only in his heart, head and guitar.
Listening to his recording of Coste's Study No. 22 Op .38, one might think
it was a trick of recording to make it
sound faster.
He played it like that. At that time you could not edit, you had to play
the way God would help you to!
How did you feel when you were recording?
Well, it was terrible. As soon as they said 'You should begin when the red
light comes on', I began to play nonsense.
Green would have been better, perhaps. Which records did you make abroad?
I made three in Japan, three in Russia, in the '60s ans '70s. Then I
recorded one in Italy and one in France. In fact
I haven't recorded that much.
In your brochure, Mimita, I see concert reviews up to 1925, then a long
silence until 1950, when a very intensive
period began. Why is that?
It's because my father helped me a lot, and we used to travel very much,
especially in Argentina and Urugay. In
1933 he died, and I was then alone in that sense. My mother, because of her
traditions, didn't like me to travel
alone. I didn't have a combative character, so I stayed at home, teaching,
also giving lessons at the Conservatorio
Nacional in Buenos Aires. And I was happy that way. My mother died at the
end of 1950. I was then completely
alone. I thought, 'As the world exists, and is big, I will try to get to
know it'. I had forgotten the little of foreign
languages I had learnt as a child, but I decided not to waste time, and
travelled 'en criollo'. I met Filipinos,
Japanese, Chines, and could always manage alone.
It seems to me that you enjoy travelling.
Yes, I do. It is very interesting. One should know the world in order to be
able to compare, to know one's own
measure.
You mentioned that you taught at the Conservatorio Nacional , but you were
also a teacher at three or four other
important conservatories in Argentina. Did you feel satisfied when you were
teaching?
I think so. You know my age. I have been teaching since I was 14, and I
still do it with the same love, with the same
interest. I don't take any notice of the time; I may stay two or three hours
with every student.
I still remember that - my own flesh! Time was infinite; concentrated in
your opportune advice.
I am still like that; exactly the same.
I also remember that when I mentioned to you how interesting or beautiful a
piece was, if it was not possible to get
the score you would spend a whole night writing it out for me. You have also
taught abroad. Do you find any
difference between foreign and Argentine guitarists?
Perhaps in temperament. Last year in Marseilles some French, Uruguayan and
Argentine guitarists played for me,
and I noticed the difference between the Europeans and the guitarists of the
Río de la Plata. There was more
expressive power in the way the Latin Americans played.
Some time ago, Colin Cooper mentioned the rhythmical sense of Latin American
players. I replied that of course
there was much rhythm in Latin-American music, but that there had been
Galliards and Almains in Europe. Do
you think there is something special in the Latin-American spirit?
I think they feel it as something fresh, something new. My Spanish students
love Argentine music, and Barrios an
Villa-Lobos.
That is something we learn when we travel and play abroad. We come back and
look for the valuable pieces in our
own country's repertoire.This reminds me that you have composed some works
for guitar. Did you study
compositon, or is it something intuitive?
I studied composition when I was young, but I felt tied to rules. Perhaps I
wasn't very lucky with my teachers.
Finally I thought, 'I'll compose what my guitar suggests to me'. My
knowledge would help me to correct it
afterwards. As I'll soon be alone in Havana, if I get the time, and if my
muses aren't still tired, I'll see if I can
compose again.
Havana - ?
It's a long time since they invited me to teach at the Conservatorio
Superior de Música. I know the atmosphere
there, the great enthusiasm for the guitar and the love they honour me with.
I'll feel very happy there, near the
Caribbean Sea.
Though we respect the freedom of the artist, it's painful that you're going
to leave us.
But we are near. For the moment, the contract is for a year. And at my age,
a year disappears in a moment.
Going back to composition - what do you feel about the music of this
century? About Henze, Ginastera, etc?
Don't forget that you are younger. It is logical for you to feel closer to
the avant-garde movements. I like
modernism up to a certain point, no more. I like Villa-Lobos, though he is
not modern today. Manuel de Falla,
others - There are some very modern compositions by which I am not moved.
Some time ago I was at a concert
where someone played and shook the guitar in the air. I think that is
nonsense. That music doesn't move; and it
even discourages people from attending concerts. Perhaps it is a matter of
period. My time wasn't like that.
Do you also find differences in the interpretation of music?
Yes, we were more romantic and sentimental in general.
The artist's image was also different. Some days ago I read an interview
with Régine Crespin. She mentioned the
rather monastic life of professional singer, and added that nowadays a
professional singer knows at 30 years of age
which opera he will be singing when he is 40. A career is programmed like a
computer; it lacks adventure, it lacks
any kind of romanticism.
Yes, on the creative side, and in all senses.
Perhaps we guitarists are more bohemian. We feel less tied, but even so
there is still a commercial influence.
Yes, and today people are more cerebral. You notice that. In my time we were
more intuitive. We liked to be moved
by music, as one is moved by a sunset. I remember a writer telling me: 'I
don't understand music. What can I do to
understand it?' I said, 'You shouldn't understand music; you should feel it.
When you look at a nice sunset, you
don't try to understand it; you are moved by it. 'A bit of romanticism is
necessary.
You have been a jury member many times. What do you think about
competitions? Are they positive?
Young people have so few possibilities to build their careers - to play in
front of audiences - that they have to try
that possibility. It is like someone who doesn't have any money, and buys a
lottery ticket. Some doors may open
after winning a competition. And they are positive, because they create
interest, they oblige you to practise.
Were there more opportunities when you were young?
It was different.
And playing with an orchestra?
To think of playing with an orchestra was a 'summer night's dream'. You
didn't imagine that the limited volume of
the guitar would go together with the cascade of sound from an orchestra.
Neither Segovia, Llobet, Robledo nor
Pujol ever took part in a competition. They had opportunities, or they did
not have opportunities. Either they were
lucky - or they were not.
Mimita, we hope to see you again there -
If life allows me, I hope to return soon.
Hasta pronto!
I woul like to thank Ricardo Zavadivker for contributing with the copies of
'La Guitarra', and the reviews I
mentioned during this interview.
G.E.11 Maria Luisa Anido 1963 Classical Guitar
The selections are:
1.Granada ( I. Albeniz)
2.Tango (I. Albeniz)
3.Recuerdos de la Alhambra (F. Tarrega)
4.Moviento Perpetuo-Impromptu (M. Llobet)
5.Pastoral (J. Rodrigo)
6.Aire Norteña (M.L. Anido)
7.Procession Coya (M. L. Anido)
8.Danza Paraguaya (Augustin Barrios)
9.Siciliana (Galilei)
10.Salterello (Galilei)
11.Preludio (J.S. Bach)
12.Minueto (Rameau)
13.Sarabanda (Rameau)
Konstantin Litovsky wrote:
> William Jennings wrote:
> >
>
> > Mo claimed:
> >
> > Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
> > performed during his lifetime."
> >
>
Matanya Ophee
>
>Ok, MO, you are the one with all the facts here
If only this was true, but it isn't. I don't have all the facts. What
I do have is healthy understanding of the difference between fact and
fiction.
> -- the people I know,
>(who by the way know you, supposedly...does the name Dmitri Goryachev
>mean anything to you?)
You mentioned this fellow a couple of times before, but I am not
familiar with him personally.
>P.S. I am not here in search of the ultimate truth -- for that matter, I
>don't really care whether anybody performed Barrios.
However, you did make the statement you did, in order to counteract
Blue's contentions regarding Segovia. You cared enough about it to
come out with this unsupported statement. Actually, _caring_ about it
one way or the other is not the issue. Personally, I also do not care.
The issue here is to find out whether the statement is true or false.
If a lot of people played Barrios' music DURING HIS LIFE TIME, (got
that Doc?) and did so not only in the limited region of his activities
in South America, but also else where in the world, then we can fix
his place in history in a totally different manner than we would in
the case he renown was local in nature.
> All that matters
>is that we now know who he is, and we have his music.
That is an entirely different subject, surely worth it's own thread.
Matanya Ophee
>
>> OK Doc. Let's have it. needn't be a _complete_ list. Needn't be a
>> _long_ list, but a few names with full documentation of when, where
>> and what. Specifically: did Oynaguren ever play Barrios? did Llobet?
>> Sinopoli? Prat? Sagreras? Terzi? Albert? Robledo? Yupanqui? Brondi?
>> Mozzani?
>
> I intend to disabuse you of this notion slowly, as Defender of Barrios, since
>you demanded it be
> fully documented. "Mimita", Juan Anidos' daughter Maria Luisa Anido,
>performed Barrios
> many time in concert. In 1963 she recorded Danza Paraguay. Proof of
>documentation can
> be provided instantly should you contest this.
No need to. I'll take your word for it. But you seem to want to
digress from what we are talking about here. Changing the subject may
better fit your need to squirm out from under, but all of the above is
still besides the point. So here it is again, and I hope you can sit
still long enough to understand what it is we are actually talking
about here:
Konstantin said that "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well
performed during his lifetime."
You said that: "You are very correct in this. I have a list of some
of the guitarist who played his works."
DURING HIS LIFE TIME. Got it now?
> You know her father studied
>with D. Prat while she studied
> with Llobet.
Not exactly right. There was an interview with her published in
Gitarre & Laute in the mid 80s, in which there is a photograph of her
at the age of 11, studying with her teacher at the time: Domingo Prat.
In the interview itself, she said that Prat was trying to force her to
adopt playing with the right side of the nail, to comply with his
theories about using the little finger of the right hand. In the
photo, her hand position is clearly that of playing with the right
side of the nail. Later, she said in the interview, this was too
painful for her so she switched to studying with Llobet.
Incidentally, in 1934, Prat published a rather favorable review of
Barrios in his Diccionario, completely at odds with the opinions of
Juan Anido.
> Do you think her Daddy turned over in his grave when she did that ? I can
>hear him right now " that hussy recorded that indians music."
Which only proves my point: she recorded Barrios long afyer her
father's death and certainly long after the composer's death. IOW, NOT
during his lifetime, which is what we are talking about here.
Matanya Ophee
>
>Mo claimed:
>
>Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed
>during his lifetime."
>
>This is a logical fallacy;
Yet, only two keystrokes ago you told Konstantin that this statement
was very correct. Can't have both ways, not when the logic patrol is
out in force...
> it begs the question of whether it is, in fact,
>necessary to have the specific facts on hand in order to comment on such
>things. Like a lot of people who tend to bristle at anything resembling a
>stereotype, you appear to have a bit of difficulty with the concept of
>generalizations.
Not at all. But Konstantin's statement was not presented as a
generalization. He knew it for a fact, so he said.
> CLARA CAMPESE INTERVISTA MARIA LUISA ANIDO
>
[extensive interview of Clara Campese with Maria Lusia Anido, given by
Doc without quoting the Italian language source] The passage relevant
to Barrios is this:
> C. Campese : "Oltre a Llobet ha conosciuto anche Villa-Lobos
>e Barrios ?" -
> M. L. Anido : "Villa-Lobos no, Barrios sì. Ero molto piccola,
>avevo 10 anni ed in casa si facevano riunioni musicali con molti
>chitarristi. Una volta
> venne anche Agustin Barrios, però, data la mia età, non diedi
>grande importanza all'evento. Soltanti in seguito me ne resi
>conto e mi dispiacque, visto
> che adoro la musica di Barrios!"
Campese asked if besides Llobet, she also knew Villa-Lobos and
Barrios. No, she did not know V-L but once, when she 10 years old,
Barrios came to their house, but given her tender age at the time, she
did not give a great importance to the event. Only later --- soltanti
in seguito ---she realized who this man was and she was then upset
because she adores the music of Barrios.
Clear enough, but says absolutely nothing about the subject we are
dicussing here. Does not tell us if she ever played in concert a piece
by Barrios DURING HIS LIFE TIME.
William Jennings
I'm into the Tiny so deep right now I lost my internet connection.
I also need a
drink.
Before I put this in draft let me issue a fact:
Warning: Puns are inherently imparsible..... ( I know this is not a real word, but it works)
doc
Matanya Ophee wrote:
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>Mo claimed:
>
>Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed
>during his lifetime."
>
>This is a logical fallacy;
Yet, only two keystrokes ago you told Konstantin that this statement
was very correct. Can't have both ways, not when the logic patrol is
out in force...
> it begs the question of whether it is, in fact,
>necessary to have the specific facts on hand in order to comment on such
>things. Like a lot of people who tend to bristle at anything resembling a
>stereotype, you appear to have a bit of difficulty with the concept of
>generalizations.
Not at all. But Konstantin's statement was not presented as a
generalization. He knew it for a fact, so he said.
> CLARA CAMPESE INTERVISTA MARIA LUISA ANIDO
>[extensive interview of Clara Campese with Maria Lusia Anido, given by
Doc without quoting the Italian language source] The passage relevant
to Barrios is this:
> C. Campese : "Oltre a Llobet ha conosciuto anche Villa-Lobos
>e Barrios ?" -
> M. L. Anido : "Villa-Lobos no, Barrios sì. Ero molto piccola,
>avevo 10 anni ed in casa si facevano riunioni musicali con molti
>chitarristi. Una volta
> venne anche Agustin Barrios, però, data la mia età, non diedi
>grande importanza all'evento. Soltanti in seguito me ne resi
>conto e mi dispiacque, visto
> che adoro la musica di Barrios!"
Campese asked if besides Llobet, she also knew Villa-Lobos and
Barrios. No, she did not know V-L but once, when she 10 years old,
Barrios came to their house, but given her tender age at the time, she
did not give a great importance to the event. Only later --- soltanti
in seguito ---she realized who this man was and she was then upset
because she adores the music of Barrios.
Clear enough, but says absolutely nothing about the subject we are
dicussing here. Does not tell us if she ever played in concert a piece
by Barrios DURING HIS LIFE TIME.
Matanya Ophee
Matanya Ophee
>I'm getting a good lesson in historiography. It might appear you find me guilty
>before all the data is processed Mo. This requires intense speculation on your
>part. I need to have my evidence ready to present when you demand proof, do I
>not. I am being careful because I know you know much more about this process
>than myself.
I think you are making this process into something it is not. There is
no magic of special training needed to deal with historiography, no
matter what the advocates of college level education in musicology
pretend. I am a kindergarten dropout myself, but I have learnt
something very basic about this process. There are only two questions
to deal with, when one tries to find the difference between fact and
fiction. The first one is:
How do you know?
The second one is:
So what?
If you can answer both questions satisfactorily, then we can continue
the discussion knowing that we both talk about the same thing. In the
present discussion, I was trying to limit the debate to the specifics
annunciated by Konstantin in his initial message and to your response
to it. Your reaction was an emotional outburst in support of Barrios,
against what you perceived to be an attack on him. That was wrong,
since the thing I wish to attack is not Barrios himself and his music,
but rather the mythology created around him. I have serious doubts if
Richard Stover's characterizations of this music as something
inherently South American and thus, anti-European, can be sustained on
a close examination of the music. Quite the contrary. There is no
doubt in my mind that Barrios' music is firmly rooted in 19th century
European romanticism, and has very little native Paraguayan (Guarani
etc) elements in it. Thus, La Catedral is more related to Regondi's
Etude No. 6 than to anything South American. I can show you close
affinities between Barrios Etudes and those of Vasilii Stepanovich
Sarenko, exactly as I can show you similarities between various
passages in Villa-Lobos' guitar music and cognate sections in the
music of Andrei Sychra and Alexander Nemerovsky. (See the Russian
Collection Vol. I & II). And for the life of me, no one can explain
why a Brazilian folk song named Nesta Rua (on which Isaias Savio wrote
a beautiful set of variations) is exactly the same melody as a Russian
romance which dates from 1823 by Guriliov called Ne Brani Menia
Rodnaia.
I am not saying that there is anything untoward in this phenomenon or
that somebody stole anything from somebody else. All I am saying is
that much South American music is the product of Western European
influences, and Barrios, in spite of his theatrical shenanigans with
Indian costumes, was well familiar with these influences and they
played a major role in his work as a composer.
The subjects you raised in this discussion, i.e., Mimita, Godoy etc,
belong to another thread which should deal with the question of
whether today's Barrios Revival was initiated by Richard Stover, or if
he simply capitalized on something that was already in progress in the
1960s in South America. I will be happy to support your work in this
direction, if you so wish.
> Now before I
>continue, let me ask you, does the name Andres Chazarreta make you itch?
Does not make me itch, but rather makes me puke, sometimes. I have a
lot of stuff by Chazarreta, original editions etc,. Some of it is
pretty good. Some of it is down right embarrassing.
>I
>have more -names- but I am very slow in name dropping. ;-) O.k. I'll speed
>things up a bit, what about Antonio Gimenez Manjon?
That is another one of those names around which a semi-revival was
attempted, with the help of David Russell and others. My friend
Michael Macmeeken published the Complete Manjon, another fellow called
Brian Jeffery also published the Complete Manjon, both editions are of
a varied level of completeness. A couple of years ago I heard Raphaela
Smits play a whole recital of Manjon music on this gorgeous 8-string
guitar by Arias. She is a marvelous guitarist, one of my favorites
actually. But the music....SPOTC. Vividly. After about 10 minutes of
this, it all sounds the same.
Some practical matters:
Every time you change the Subject line, my Agent software places the
message in a different thread. This makes the conversation extremely
difficult to follow. DejaNews probably keeps it together, but I gave
up on that, since my ISP seems to do a pretty good job of keeping the
Usenet up-to-date. So please, do not change the subject line. Also,
you keep sending me e-mail copies of these messages. I have a tough
time deciding which are indeed private messages and which are just
copies. Do me a favor and separate the two.
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
>Konstantin said: "I know for a fact that Barrios' work WAS well performed
>during his lifetime."
>
>This is a logical fallacy;Yet, only two keystrokes ago you told Konstantin that this statement
was very correct. Can't have both ways, not when the logic patrol is
out in force...
Konstantins' English like many other posters here, including myself, is about as pure as a crib house whore. Most times we do not pursue them down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. Otherwise few of us would ever post to a News group.As Francis Bacon, the father of modern scientific method, expressed it in the sixteenth century:"The universe is not to be narrowed down to the limits of the understanding, which has been man's practice up to now; but the understanding must be stretched and enlarged to take in the image of the universe as it is discovered."
In the beginning was the words -well played-. Mark Twain said the difference between the almost right word and the right word is really a large matter---'tis the difference between the lightning bug and the lightning. In the Barnyard we are not often concerned with semantic niceties unless is suits our specific purposes. I shall come back to this
Konstantin requested a little " light be shed" on Barrios, he now has in his hands some original light. Is not the true purpose of art ( at least as I understand it ) the struggle towards the light? I have a little more to say about light in my next post.
I need another cup of coffee, I just woke up. Slept like a baby last night.
There's more to come; what's parsed is prologue.
doc's on a roll. ;-)
William Jennings
track of these.
I think you an I may be the only ones reading this thread but it's been a most
interesting one to
myself.
doc ( I'll stay with this subject line)
William Jennings
writing of history; especially: the writing
of history based on the critical examination of sources, the
selection of particulars from the authentic
materials, and the synthesis of particulars into a narrative that
will stand the test of critical methods; b: the
principles, theory, and history of historical writing (a course
in historiography) 2: the product of historical
writing: a body of historical literature" (Merriam-Webster’s
Collegiate Dictionary).
Alleged violations of historiography are commonly referred to as
"anachronisms" or "prolepses".
"Anachronism" is defined by Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate
Dictionary as "1 : an error in chronology;
especially: a chronological misplacing of persons, events,
objects, or customs in regard to each other 2: a
person or a thing that is chronologically out of place;
especially: one from a former age that is
incongruous in the present." "Prolepsis" is defined as "a: The
anachronistic representation of something
as existing before its proper or historical time or b: The
assignment of something, such as an event or a
name, to a time that precedes it."
In the case of Barrios there are significant problems which I'm sure
we both can agree on.
Barrios didn't always write down his compositions. He seldom
stayed long in one place.
He was somewhat secretive about how he did things, until the
last years of his life.
The music of Barrios was very advanced in technique for most guitarist
of that time.
Concerning his music, it has unique elements of baroque and
romantic mixed with his own
sound. He is thought to be the first guitarist to record the
Bach lute suites.
It is very difficult to know the truth, my notes most often
begin with; According to-------- ( these were
conversations with people that knew him or saw him play. Most
of these people are long dead now.
One of these was Joe Mayo from Havana, Cuba. He was about
76 years old when I first met him
some 25 years ago. I know his name sound Irish but he was
a native Cuban. He had spent some time with
both Barrios and Hemingway. I met him in West Palm Beach,
Fla. We spent many days and nights discussing guitar and Barrios
long before Stovers publications were published. Mr. Mayo could still
play but there was some difficulty for him with his old worn hands.
He was not a well know guitarist but something of a famous engineer in
Cuba. He was awarded a medal of some kind from the Queen of England
I forget what it was.
I did not demand proof or facts from this old gentleman, I was just
eager to listen. Mr. Mayo recounted those
times (1938) with Barrios, as old men sometimes do,
I listened. Last night I sent a copy of the only autographed
and dated ( 28-1-38) "Preludio No. 2" to Konstantin Litovsky,
that is extant to my knowledge. Mr. Mayo gave me his music when I
left West Palm Beach for south america. That was the last time I
saw him. He was nowhere to be found when I returned.
I have countless recollections of; According to ------------, that shed light on Barrios. The same mirror used to reflect a rattlesnake down in its hole can be flashed in the eyes to temporarily blind someone else.
My list may be in the safety deposit box and banks are closed today.
I will check in the morning. In the end
nothing I provide, or you say, will impact the legacy of Augstin
Barrios.
What is truth? What is proof? ( more to follow)
doc
"Have faith; in the fullness of time this too shall parse" ;-)
Matanya Ophee
>
>In the case of Barrios there are significant problems which I'm sure we both can
>agree on.
>Barrios didn't always write down his compositions.
But he did record them. There is this new (couple of years ago?)
English edition which is strictly based on the recordings. I haven't
seen it, so I don't know how reliable it is.
>The music of Barrios was very advanced in technique for most guitarist of that time.
Here we go again. A generalization which can easily be proven wrong.
>Concerning his music, it has unique elements of baroque and romantic mixed with his
>own
>sound. He is thought to be the first guitarist to record the Bach lute suites.
That may be true, but so far, the 3 CDs set of Barrios' own playing
does not include any complete lute suites, let alone all of them. Is
there anything else which is not included in this set?
>It is very difficult to know the truth, my notes most often begin with; According
>to-------- ( these were
>conversations with people that knew him or saw him play. Most of these people are
>long dead now.
I am not about to belittle the value of eye witness reports. Quite the
contrary. Assuming your report is an accurate rendition of what the
witness told you, you bothered to cite precisely when and where this
interview took place, and you have not embellished the witness'
testimony in any way, then the narrative may yield important
information, which, although it would not be supported by a precise
bibliography, could still be used. For example, your witness reported
that in 1935 he heard Barrios play a Bach Lute Suite in a concert in
Bahia Blanca (fictitious data to illustrate the argument). Now you go
and check further and find out if, in 1935, Barrios was in Bahia
Blanca. If he did, you want to know if he played any public concerts.
If yes, is there an extant program or newspaper review? if yes, does
it list a Bach Lute Suite?
If Barrios was nowhere near Bahia Blanca in 1935, or if he did not
play a public concert there, or if he did but the program does not
list a Bach Lute Suite, it means one of two things:
1. Your witness made it all up
2. He did in fact hear a performance as he describes, but the affair
was not recorded publicly.
It is up to you now to judge to what extent the witness was giving you
a factual report or an embellished account.
>My list may be in the safety deposit box and banks are closed today. I will check in
>the morning. In the end
>nothing I provide, or you say, will impact the legacy of Augstin Barrios.
You are probably right, in a generalized diffused sort of vagueness.
My own personal feeling is that once this music was stripped of the
bullshit mythology that surrounds it, once its eclectic nature was
more transparent, more evident, Barrios would disappear from the
standard repertoire as an interesting fad which held its sway on CG
repertoire for a while. Then we could finally clear the air and look
at South American music in a more realistic manner and find out the
true gems in there: Sinopoli, Sagreras, Esnaola, Luna, Guastavino,
Falu, Fleury, Ayala, Gomez Crespo, Santorsola, Cruz Cordero, Yupanqui
to drop a few names.
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
>In the case of Barrios there are significant problems which I'm sure we both can
>agree on.
>Barrios didn't always write down his compositions.
But he did record them. There is this new (couple of years ago?)
English edition which is strictly based on the recordings. I haven't
seen it, so I don't know how reliable it is.
Perhaps you refer to "The Barrios Anniversary Editions" by Chris Dumigan
Published by: Aston Music Productions ( Paul Fowles)
9 Aston House, Westgate Avenue, Bolton BL1 4RF,
England
Tel: 01204-394401 Fax: 01204-361819
pfo...@gina.win-uk.net
Chris Dumigan an I were in touch for awhile but both
of our lives are rather hectic, and we have lost touch.
IMO, Chris has done a great service to guitarist everywhere
and is rather brilliant in his work. When I learned
this work, I couldn't get it fast enough.
My experience with Mr. Fowles was no less sterling. That all
publishing firms were this effective, is a dream.
By the way Mo, "Lagos" do you have a good address for them.
>The music of Barrios was very advanced in technique for most guitarist of that time.
This was often heard by myself. It is an opinion widely shared by less than comprehending guitarist.Here we go again. A generalization which can easily be proven wrong.
Never-the-less this is what I heard over and over.
>Concerning his music, it has unique elements of baroque and romantic mixed with his
>own
>sound. He is thought to be the first guitarist to record the Bach lute suites.
That may be true, but so far, the 3 CDs set of Barrios' own playing
does not include any complete lute suites, let alone all of them. Is
there anything else which is not included in this set?
It is thought by the generalist they may be 10 or more recording to be found.
>It is very difficult to know the truth, my notes most often begin with; According
>to-------- ( these were
>conversations with people that knew him or saw him play. Most of these people are
>long dead now.
I am not about to belittle the value of eye witness reports. Quite the
contrary. Assuming your report is an accurate rendition of what the
witness told you, you bothered to cite precisely when and where this
interview took place, and you have not embellished the witness'
testimony in any way, then the narrative may yield important
information, which, although it would not be supported by a precise
bibliography, could still be used. For example, your witness reported
that in 1935 he heard Barrios play a Bach Lute Suite in a concert in
Bahia Blanca (fictitious data to illustrate the argument). Now you go
and check further and find out if, in 1935, Barrios was in Bahia
Blanca. If he did, you want to know if he played any public concerts.
If yes, is there an extant program or newspaper review? if yes, does
it list a Bach Lute Suite?If Barrios was nowhere near Bahia Blanca in 1935, or if he did not
play a public concert there, or if he did but the program does not
list a Bach Lute Suite, it means one of two things:1. Your witness made it all up
2. He did in fact hear a performance as he describes, but the affair
was not recorded publicly.It is up to you now to judge to what extent the witness was giving you
a factual report or an embellished account.
Mo, at that time there was no one in the USA I knew who sounded like that old man.
That Moorish Iberian aching sound in those old hands, I was transfixed ! I never questioned
his authentic, I heard it. We both liked to fish and he had known E.H. I believe his accounts where
as objective as the old mans' dreams, of lions on the beach in Africa ( Old Man and the Sea).
Mr. Mayo also knew Segovia, he preferred Barrios. Mo, there
was nothing very unusual about all this
at that time. Who knew or cared anything for Barrios?
It was just a hot and humid summer in WPB. I was studying
with Ms. Luisa Fluents of Havana, daughter of the famous Cuban composer
of the same name. Old Joe and I ate a lot of " Mariscos", drank coffee,
fished a bit and he enjoyed my playing of those early lessons. He
helped me a lot in details, that have manifested themselves in my
life. It was a taste of the guitar from the latter part of the 19th.
century. That those times would have turned out to be as important
in some way as they have, was a thought that never occurred to me, at the
time, I just listened.
Life was not so cut and dried as today, not as hurried. Mo,
I just remembered !!!!! I had a girlfriend who was Cuban also.
She was a guitarist and studied with Ms. Fluentes also. The last
I heard she was playing at Disney World in
Fla. .............. I don't recall her name but maybe some
one out there knows of her. I would think she would be in the south
Fla. area. I introduced her to Mr. Mayo and she visited with us several
times at his house. I would recall her name if I heard it.
Strange is it not, I remember in great detail about old Joe and not
even the name of my girlfriend. I had gone back to see Mr. Mayo to
show him the Barrios, he was gone ( dead?) I looked her up.
Shortly there-after she got that job a Disney World. For whatever
it's worth, and that girl will recall, I had a drug problem then.
( Mo, I've written this super fast...may be errors. Please excuse....duty calls)
!!!Mo, I just recalled !!! Your tango friend Jim Sherry was the one
that sent me to Ms. Fluentes from Chicago.
I to this day recall what he said to me " Anyone can technique Ms.
Fluentes will help you to understand music"
Jim Sherry may even remember all the guitars I bought from him at
that time, M. Barberos. I could resell them easy.....that old man,
gave me, some of that sound!!!!! ;-) Jim Sherry will recall Ms. Fluentes!
doc
"On completing this message, doc suddenly parsed out"
Mo, I stuck this in drafts and left it there before I played.
I find it a little astonishing..... writing this is not unlike
playing the guitar for me. The intensive thought over the
past few days, into the Tiny, as I like to call it, has recalled those
old memories clearly. I can see my little apartment and the details,
the flowers and palm trees
this time of year. Things Joe, and that girl said, return
to me now. Often I have thought of that old man and what happened
to him, but never as clearly as I do now. Writing does something
I haven't quite put my fingers on, yet.
Keep in mind, that was just one summer, I traveled through Mexico, all the central american countries and south america, a guitar bum. I knew other guitarist who lent their experience and knowledge of Barrios, and often the music. It never occurred to me to sell that music or edit ( give me a break) what Barrios wrote.
Doc,
" Needs to watch his grammar; help stamp out slips that parse in
the night" ;-(
>My list may be in the safety deposit box and banks are closed today. I will check in
>the morning. In the end
>nothing I provide, or you say, will impact the legacy of Augstin Barrios.
You are probably right, in a generalized diffused sort of vagueness.
My own personal feeling is that once this music was stripped of the
bullshit mythology that surrounds it, once its eclectic nature was
more transparent, more evident, Barrios would disappear from the
standard repertoire as an interesting fad which held its sway on CG
repertoire for a while. Then we could finally clear the air and look
at South American music in a more realistic manner and find out the
true gems in there: Sinopoli, Sagreras, Esnaola, Luna, Guastavino,
Falu, Fleury, Ayala, Gomez Crespo, Santorsola, Cruz Cordero, Yupanqui
to drop a few names.
Matanya Ophee
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
>
> That may be true, but so far, the 3 CDs set of Barrios' own playing
> does not include any complete lute suites, let alone all of them. Is
> there anything else which is not included in this set?
>
AGUSTÍN PÍO BARRIOS
Vasta Discografía (x)
por: César
González Páez
Hoy hablaremos de un gran guitarrista, Agustín Pío Barrios (Mangoré) (1885-1944), cuya
trayectoria es la más
sólida que se conoce de un artista paraguayo, por el hecho de que su musicalidad suele
escucharse en los serios
salones clásicos y en las vertientes populares.Ya hemos hablado en esta sección de él,
pero iremos conociéndolo
un poco más.
Hoy nos ocuparemos de su discografía. Según sostiene Luis Szarán en su Diccionario de la
Música en el
Paraguay, "Barrios como intérprete fue el primer concertista de guitarra en el mundo en
realizar grabaciones". Se
debe tener en cuenta que a partir de 1910, y hasta los últimos días de su vida (falleció
en 1944), grabó
numerosos discos. Señala el investigador que Mangoré grabó para los sellos Atlanta y
Artigas de Uruguay. Entre
1910 y 1913 grabó: Tango No.2, Tango Don Pérez
Freire, Vals Pepita, Vidalita con variaciones, Jota, Milonga (estilo criollo), A mi madre
(sonatina), Divagación, La
bananita (tango), Aires criollos, Oro y Plata; entre los temas figura
incluso La marcha de San Lorenzo.
Entre 1922 a 1929 grabó para el sello Odeón, hoy EMI, de Buenos Aires y de San Pablo. El
catálogo incluye temas
como Danza Paraguaya, Acomquija de la suite andina, Madrigal, y la hermosa melodía de La
Catedral. También
abordó a grandes clásicos como el Minueto de Beethoven, el Capricho Arabe de F.Tárrega y
Traumerei de R.
Schuman
En el libro mencionado de Luis Szarán los interesados en estudiar la discografía completa
de Mangoré encontrarán
un extenso artículo que justicieramente se hace de este gran hombre de la guitarra.
El guitarrista australiano John Williams, que le dedicó un disco completo, señaló que
Barrios fue el más grande
compositor para la guitarra de todos los tiempos. Por su parte, la guitarrista Berta
Rojas, en virtud de la misma admiración, le dedicó un compacto titulado Intimate Barrios,
que fue muy bien
receptado en nuestro país y auditorios estadounidenses. Szarán apunta que en 1942 se
hicieron grabaciones por
Crosley en El Salvador; Invocación a la Luna, Sueño de la muñequita y Diana Guaraní. En
nuestro país también
han grabado sus obras Sila Godoy, Felipe Sosa, Luz María Bobadilla.
(x) Del diario ÚLTIMA HORA (El Correo Semanal), 27-28 de Febrero de 1999 (Asunción,
Paraguay).
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
You are probably right, in a generalized diffused sort of vagueness.
The term is " constructive ambiguity "
My own personal feeling is that once this music was stripped of the
bullshit mythology that surrounds it, once its eclectic nature was
more transparent, more evident, Barrios would disappear from the
standard repertoire as an interesting fad which held its sway on CG
repertoire for a while.
When pigs fly!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agustín Pío Barrios en la década del 30.
Fue nuestro guitarrista máximo, un talento excepcional. Virtuoso
de la guitarra como el mejor y - un mérito mucho superior - un
gran compositor. Fue cronológicamente el primer compositor
de la música culta en el Paraguay. Sus obras merecen mayor
difusión.
Su exquisito gusto artístico, sus armonías atrayentes,
su técnica de compositor lo colocan a Barrios como uno de los ases
de
nuestra música. Antes que Villalobos en el Brasil,, ya
vio la posibilidad - y la ejecutó- de escribir algo así como
las "Bachianas"
para la guitarra.
Trataba constantemente de superarse, trabajaba, estudiaba. No
le interesaba lo material, así también murió pobre.
Todos los
que lo conocieron guardan un grato recuerdo de su cautivante personalidad.
Lo recuerdo allá por 1922 en una noche de luna de San Bernardino,
él con su guitarra embrujada deleitándonos horas enteras.
Su hermano -el poeta- recitaba una poesía "Oyendo a Beethoven"
y él ejecutaba como música de fondo el Claro de Luna, en
una adaptación propia. Basualdo dice de él que
era afable, bondadoso, amable, de locuacidad amena, siempre interesante.
Físicamente era musculoso, un orangután,
no era hermoso, pero su trato lo transformaba, su guitarra lo divinizaba.
Le gustaba la
cultura física. Era gran atleta, trabajaba en la barra. Diariamente
hacía su gimnasia sueca.
Sus compañeros del Colegio Nacional lo llamaban "Agüi-mi".
Se ha querido decir que Barrios no era paraguayo. Sila Godoy
(el maestro de la guitarra, Cayo Sila Godoy, gran reivindicador
de Barrios.), me proporcionó el certificado de bautismo que se transcribe:
"Yo infrascripto Vicario Cooperador de esta parroquia de SAN JUAN
BAUTISTA DE LAS MISIONES, certifico
que: en el libro II de Bautismo en este archivo parroquial al
folio 48 se halla registrada la partida que íntegra y
literalmente dice así: el veintitres de Mayo de 1885, yo el
infrascripto Cura de esta parroquia de San Ignacio de las
Misiones bauticé solemnemente a Agustín Pío
que nació el cinco del corriente, hijo legítimo de Doroteo
Barrios y
Martina Ferreira. Fue padrino Ceferino Leguizamón de que doy fé.
Firmado: Nicolás Pésolo. "
Desde muy niño mostró interés por
la música. Sosa Escalada lo oyó no solo tocar la guitarra,
sino que pudo apreciar los
esbozos de composiciones del joven. En diversas oportunidades
Sosa Escalada le dió lecciones. A su consejo Agustín Barrios
fue enviado a Asunción, donde cursó el Colegio
Nacional hasta el bachillerato. Fue muy buen alumno. Se dedicó al
periodismo
y al dibujo!. Destacándose en matemáticas, en filosofía
y en literatura.
Escribe Sila Godoy: " En el año 1910 sale por primera
vez del Paraguay. Se dirige a Corrientes para dar unos conciertos,
piensa regresar a la semana, pero el éxito y su
afán de conocer otros horizontes, lo llevan a recorrer varias veces
Brasil,
Uruguay, Argentina y Chile. Así fue que saliendo por
ocho días, regresaba al Paraguay 14 años después.
En ese transcurso
completa su formación artística y descubre el mundo
sonoro de Juan Sebastián Bach, a quien toma como maestro y guía
para
sus composiciones. A este período pertenecen
sus obras más notables:" La Catedral", "Allegro Sinfónico"
"Estudios y
Preludios", "Las Abejas", "Estudio de Concierto",
"Vals No.3 y 4", "Mazurca apassionata", "Invocación a mi madre",
"Madrigal", "Contemplación", "Un Sueño en
la Floresta", "Confesión; romanza", "Oración", "Danza Paraguaya",
"Jha che
Valle", etc…-
"La multiple creación de Barrios abarca varios estilos: clásico, romántico y popular..".
"Su vida de intérprete lo llevó a viajar definitivamente
del Río de la Plata, su itinerario es desde entonces el camino de
todos los
pueblos de América Latina. Entre 1934 y 1936 viaja por
Europa:España, Alemania, Bélgica. Su triunfo es definitivo
en todos
los escenarios donde actúa, los críticos
más exigentes lo comparan a Segovia como intérprete y como
creador lo juzgan
precursor, comparándolo con Chopin, introduce en la guitarra
un virtuosismo que le acerca a Paganini. En el año 1936 regresa
de Europa, viene directamente a Venezuela, donde da más de veinte
conciertos, éxitos que no ha sido superados hasta hoy por
otro guitarrista. Después viaja por Centro América.
En México, su corazón ya enfermo sufre una recaída.
Vuelve entonces
sobre sus pasos, y se dirige a Costa Rica, donde tiene
amigos que lo invitan a radicarse en aquel país. De paso por San
Salvador, donde tiene fanáticos admiradores, recibe la invitación
del propio presidente de la República, General Martínez,
para
quedarse a descansar hasta recobrar su resentida salud. Muy
pronto Barrios es ganado por el cariño y la generosa atención
que le brindan los salvadoreños. Es nombrado profesor
de guitarra del Conservatorio Nacional de Música de San Salvador,
donde durante cinco años, de 1939 a 1944, vive una vida
de paz, rodeado del cariño de sus amigos y alumnos, y venerado
como un ser legandario.Hasta hoy nadie olvida su figura
de elegante bohemio y su extraordinaria personalidad de artista.
Todos exclamaban a su paso: "Allá va el gran Mangoré!".
Sin que nadie presagiara su fin, un día sufre un ataque al corazón,
del
cual se repone aparentemente. Unos días después,
el 7 de Agosto de 1944, rodeado de sus alumnos, reclama la presencia de
un sacerdote, con quien habla largamente, mientras en la casa
se hacía música de guitarra. Barrios entonces les dice: "
No temo
al pasado, pero no sé, si podré superar el misterio de la
noche".
"Al promediar la tarde deja de latir su corazón,
y su vida se refugia en el sueño eterno. Así rodeado de sus
alumnos y su
esposa Gloria, muere uno de los más grandes
artístas que tuvo América.El sacerdote que lo acompañó
hasta el último
momento, dijo: "Es la primera vez que veo morir a un Santo".
"Sus restos descansan en el Cementerio de los Ilustres, y en el
Museo de San Salvador hay una vitrina que guarda su guitarra,
un albúm, una medalla de oro, un diploma y una cabeza
tallada de madera. La veneración y el culto a su nombre que profesan
los salvadoreños merecen el eterno reconocimiento de todo paraguayo".
Hasta aquí Sila Godoy (220).
El certificado defunción que debo a la gentileza de Sila,
expedido en El Salvador, a la página 737 del libro de Partidas de
Defunciones, el día 7 de Agosto de 1944, Partida No. 2197, dice:
"Agustín Barrios Mangoré, de cincuenta y ocho años
de edad, guitarrista, casado con Gloria de Barrios Mangoré,
originario de la población Misiones, Rep.del Paraguay,
y de este domicilio, hijo de padres ignorados, falleció de
insuficiencia cardíaca a la diez horas de hoy,
en la casa número veintitrés de la primera Avenida Norte
de esta
Ciudad, con asistencia
médica del Dr. Ricardo Zaldívar. No deja bienes…-. Pedro
Escalante A.
Alcalde Mu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then we could finally clear the air ( current environmental air pollution reports indicate otherwise) and look
at South American music in a more realistic manner and find out the true gems in there: Sinopoli, Sagreras, Esnaola, Luna, Guastavino, Falu, Fleury, Ayala, Gomez Crespo, Santorsola, Cruz Cordero, Yupanqui
to drop a few names.
Hector Ayala, Adolfo V. Luna, Sosa Escalada Mario Parodi and the humble, Pinky Pinkomon. ;-)
doc
I went this far with him: "Sir, allow me
to ask you one question. If the Church were to say to you, 'two and three
make ten,' what would you do?" "Sir," said he, "I should believe it, and
I should count like this: one, two, three, four, ten." I was now fully
satisfied. --Boswell's Journal for 31st May, 1764
Matanya Ophee
>
>
>Matanya Ophee wrote:
>
>>
>> That may be true, but so far, the 3 CDs set of Barrios' own playing
>> does not include any complete lute suites, let alone all of them. Is
>> there anything else which is not included in this set?
>>
>Hoy nos ocuparemos de su discografía. Según sostiene Luis Szarán en su Diccionario de la
>Música en el
>Paraguay, "Barrios como intérprete fue el primer concertista de guitarra en el mundo en
>realizar grabaciones".
That point of view [Barrios was the first guitarist ever to make a
sound recording] has been expressed numerous times before, but the
data provided does not tell us exactly where, on which disks or tubes
or wax rolls or whatever, Barrios recorded anything in 1910 to 1913.
Do you know for a fact that such recordings actually survived, and if
so, where are they? or are we dealing here with a legend that cannot
be susutained by documentation?
Nothing in this lengthy newpaper article tell us if Barrios ever
recorded a Bach Lute Suite as you said he did.
Matanya Ophee
>
>
>Matanya Ophee wrote:
>> My own personal feeling is that once this music was stripped of the
>> bullshit mythology that surrounds it, once its eclectic nature was
>> more transparent, more evident, Barrios would disappear from the
>> standard repertoire as an interesting fad which held its sway on CG
>> repertoire for a while.
>
> When pigs fly!
Bravo! Spoken like a true believer. As an observer of the guitar scene
for the last 45 years, I learned to treat these things with a healthy
dose of skepticism. Some things (RdlA, Asturias, Romanza etc) seems to
have stuck with us forever. Other things have come and gone. I could
mention a few, but I don't want to diffuse your attention. Let's look
at this issue 10-20 years from now (I'll be around, I assure you...)
and check the skies for any flying pigs.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Agustín Pío Barrios en la década del 30.
[extende Barrios biography snipped]
Tell me, Doc: does this unsigned biography published (when? where?)
includes any biographical data not given by Stover iun his Six Silver
Beams book?
Matanya Ophee
Matanya Ophee
>
>
> By the way Mo, "Lagos" do you have a good address for them.
Ediciones LAGOS
TALCAHUANO 638-P.B. "H"
(1013) BUENOS AIRES,
Phone: 541-374-5528
Fax: 371-3746/374-5528
William Jennings
Matanya Ophee wrote:
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Agustín Pío Barrios en la década del 30.[extende Barrios biography snipped]
Tell me, Doc: does this unsigned biography published (when? where?)
includes any biographical data not given by Stover iun his Six Silver
Beams book?
Sir, there are Spanish speaking guitarist in those empty
quarters of the planet who have Internet access
but not the referenced book, nor can many read
it in English. Readers of this thread have contacted
me in private e-mails requesting additional data and
thanked me for posting those documents in the original
language. I will provide you with the source
of this information and much more. ( It seems like everyone
promises that _much more_ these days but doc will deliver!)
Now, my very learned Master, if I
were a student of yours in a course you gave in historiography, would you
sir, give doc a passing grade? Would you fail me as a serious embarrassment
in the service of music,
based on our discussions up to this point and those efforts I made
as an uninformed young man.
doc
"In art as in science there is no delight without the detail,
and it is on details that I have tried to fix the reader's attention. Let
me repeat that unless these are thoroughly understood and remembered, all
"general ideas" (so easily acquired, so profitably resold) must necessarily
remain but worn passports allowing their bearers short cuts from one area
of ignorance to another.'
--Vladimir Nabokov
William Jennings
"Nothing in this lengthy newpaper article tell us if Barrios ever recorded a Bach Lute Suite as you said he did."
>
>Matanya Ophee wrote:
Pardon me, I do not recall making
this statement. Correct me if I am in error ( you will not hesitate
)
but I do not believe I made this
assertion.
doc
"Error is a hardy plant: it flourisheth in every soil."
--Martin Farquhar Tupper, Proverbial
Philosophy [1838-1842]. Of Truth in Things False.
>
>>
>> That may be true, but so far, the 3 CDs set of Barrios' own playing
>> does not include any complete lute suites, let alone all of them. Is
>> there anything else which is not included in this set?
>>
>Hoy nos ocuparemos de su discografía. Según sostiene Luis Szarán en su Diccionario de la
>Música en el
>Paraguay, "Barrios como intérprete fue el primer concertista de guitarra en el mundo en
>realizar grabaciones".
That point of view [Barrios was the first guitarist ever to make a
sound recording] has been expressed numerous times before, but the
data provided does not tell us exactly where, on which disks or tubes
or wax rolls or whatever, Barrios recorded anything in 1910 to 1913.
Do you know for a fact that such recordings actually survived, and if
so, where are they? or are we dealing here with a legend that cannot
be susutained by documentation?
Nothing in this lengthy newpaper article tell us if Barrios ever
recorded a Bach Lute Suite as you said he did.
Matanya Ophee
William Jennings
>> >Matanya Ophee wrote:
>
> "Nothing in this lengthy newpaper article tell us if Barrios ever recorded a Bach Lute
>Suite as you said he did."
>
> Pardon me, I do not recall making this statement. Correct me if I am in error ( you
>will not hesitate )
> but I do not believe I made this assertion.
You did. Here it is:
[snip]
The music of Barrios was very advanced in technique for most guitarist
of that time. Concerning his music, it has unique elements of baroque
and romantic mixed with his own sound. He is thought to be the first
guitarist to record the Bach lute suites.
And this sir, is just what I did say: He is thought to be the first guitarist to record the Bach lute suites.==============================================end of quote
I trust you understand that any further discourse is
counter-productive if you cannot recall what you said only yesterday.
No sir, it does not correspond the newspaper article, did I say that? No sir, I did not.
The person that made this statement: " He is thought
to be the first guitarist to record the Bach lute suites."
is John Williams The Guitarist. I sir,
said there was thought to be 10 records to be found of Barrios recordings.
It is thought the Bach is in those lost recordings.
If push comes to shove, I'll try and contact Mr. Williams,
I do have is London address from the letters
he wrote to Sila, before he make that first recording of Barrios.
Perhaps he may even remember doc from the Guitar
Festival in Asuncion.
I trust sir, you know Five Stud Poker? I am rasing and calling your hand, on this detail.If you require Mr. Williams confirmation please inform me, I will attend to that task at once.
If you take my assertion at face value and in the next few days or months find I was in error, I sir,
will express mail you a new $100.00 US$ bill. You have more than enough witnesses I think.
You may not have remembered another thread sir, " Guardames las Vacas ". I haven't forgot you stealing
my damn cows sir, yes, walking them backwards so I couldn't track them. Like Hermes, a thief in the night
who stole cattle. Perhaps you will recall I mentioned Cortez who " Once he took a step forward would not
retreat". I sir, have you lined up in my cross hairs, the plains fall dark, I have murder in my heart.
I am a very patient hombre but the time has come sir, Where is the Beef?
Now shall we continue?
doc
In the Cowboy Capital of the World
By a small sample we may judge of the whole
piece.
--Miguel de Cervantes, Don Quixote
Matanya Ophee
>
>
>
>>
>> >
>> >Matanya Ophee wrote:
>
> "Nothing in this lengthy newpaper article tell us if Barrios ever recorded a Bach Lute
>Suite as you said he did."
>
> Pardon me, I do not recall making this statement. Correct me if I am in error ( you
>will not hesitate )
> but I do not believe I made this assertion.
You did. Here it is:
From: William Jennings <jou...@texas.net>
Reply-To: jou...@texas.net
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.guitar
Subject: Re: segovia & barrios *Le calembour est la fiente de l'esprit
qui
vole.* V. Hugo
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 15:58:47 CST
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:00:58 -0600
Xref: news rec.music.classical.guitar:5545
--------------6769D613BCC4042924696A33
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
[snip]
In the case of Barrios there are significant problems which I'm sure
we both can agree on. Barrios didn't always write down his
compositions. He seldom stayed long in one place.
He was somewhat secretive about how he did things, until the last
years of his life.
The music of Barrios was very advanced in technique for most guitarist
of that time. Concerning his music, it has unique elements of baroque
and romantic mixed with his own sound. He is thought to be the first
guitarist to record the Bach lute suites.
==============================================end of quote
I trust you understand that any further discourse is
counter-productive if you cannot recall what you said only yesterday.
William Jennings
My documentation is among three different people on this NG at this
moment.
One of them being Chiara Latini who kicked your ass badly on that
other List.
I say she will cut you again, in a heartbeat. Care to tangle
with that Italian?
I have never been one to show on demand or explain, unless I chose
to.
To see a card you pay your money here.
Mo can handle himself without help from the peanut galley.
I said it would be slow and I want something.
doc
John Sloan wrote:
Doc, you've got more excuses than a one-legged man in
an ass-kicking contest.... but, it's fun listening to them.
:)
John Sloan
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
William Jennings
I found out what I needed to know about you in the "Blind Date" thread.
You will note I have not responded
to you since that time. The real mud you speak of, the hypocrisy
in a certain subject, I may address at another time
or may leave lie. I was only interested to know for myself,
if you were like other sheriffs, presenting one face to the
community and another behind closed doors.
Since you jumped into to that post regarding John Williams statement, I say put your money where your mouth is. I raise that proposition to $1,000.00. Put up or shut up and get out of my way.
That's how we kill bullfrogs, ain't that right, John Sloan.
I suggest we three express mail our checks to an independent third party. This will keep in check pointless, inconclusive verbal exchanges, flames on the NG and let everyone see the color of your money. It will also illuminate the color of the stripe that runs down your back.
You brought a jack knife to a gunfight, whimpering Sloan.
doc
John Sloan wrote:
William Jennings wrote:
>
> My documentation is among three different people on this NG at this moment.
> One of them being Chiara Latini who kicked your ass badly on that other List.
> I say she will cut you again, in a heartbeat. Care to tangle with that Italian?
Hmmm, I don't recall a Chiara Latini. I'm sure, though, that if I
keep pointing out that you haven't answered Matanya's simple
questions you'll dredge up whatever mud you can find on me in the
hopes of driving me away. Ain't that right, doc?John Sloan
William Jennings
I have a constructive solution to this quagmire. A student I know
is going to Italy for advanced studies and can use all the money he can
get. We can all mail our checks to this student. I am quite
sure he can verify the words of John Williams in short order
with his contacts there. John Williams known a thing or two about
Barrios, imho.
The statement you are putting your money on:
" It is thought Barrios was the first to record a Bach lute suite."
It ought to be easy to confirm this statement with his contacts there.
I say he can have my share of that money.
My only interest is in driving in the point, deeply. He can
certainly put your money to good use and we can all
contribute to the history of Barrios. I can send my check
now. What say you?
doc
" Money talks while B.S. walks"
William Jennings
doc
John Sloan wrote:
William Jennings wrote:
>
> The real mud you speak of, the hypocrisy in a certain
> subject, I may address at another time
> or may leave lie. I was only interested to know for myself, if you were like other
> sheriffs, presenting one face to the
> community and another behind closed doors.
Post it or shut up.
John Sloan
William Jennings
Blue Velvet
> You brought a jack knife to a gunfight, whimpering Sloan.
He should have come equipped with a straight-jacket. What I can't
understand is why you're getting any serious responses to your
psychotic ranting.
It's amazing to watch you go through this process over and over again.
First you make some inane remark. Then when you're asked for supporting
evidence you act indignant and try and turn the debate into some
machismo pissing contest. You're obviously one of those momma's boy
types that wets his bed well into adulthood and then devotes his entire
life to proving that he isn't the pussy that he secretly knows himself
to be.
Folks, don't waste your time on this freak. He's never going to admit
he's wrong about this or any other subject. That would be a sign of a
big man and this guy is obviously just a piss-ant quivering mass of
insecurity.
Jennings, why not take your own advice and put your money where your
mouth is so we no longer have to hear you talk?
Blue
P.S. Can't wait to see what numbskull logic you use to blame the wrong
person for my posts this time around.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matanya Ophee
>I have a constructive solution to this quagmire.
I have one too. It is this: think before you type.
>The statement you are putting your money on:
>
>
> " It is thought Barrios was the first to record
>a Bach lute suite."
>
>It ought to be easy to confirm this statement with his contacts
>there.
This is truly the sound of BS talking. Let's analyze the statement:
It is thought....
Someone, JW or whoever, makes no difference, is reporting that someone
else, someplace, sometimes, thought that Barrios recorded a Bach lute
suite. (No such record is known to exist, and no literary reference to
the existence of such records is known to exist). Clearly, the person
or persons who did the original thinking, had no clue whether their
thinking was correct or not, since if they had any concrete knowledge
of the matter, they would say so and not restrict their ideas to mere
thinking. By the same token, the person who is quoted here to have
reported this, (JW or whoever else, makes no difference) is also
totally ignorant of the facts of the matter. It is further alleged,
that this person who was doing the thinking on which JW (or whoever
else, makes no difference) commented, also thought that no one else
had recorded a Bach lute suite before Barrios did.
So even if JW did say what you say he said, and even considering your
inability to recall yesterday that you said that the day before
yesterday, it is still a bullshit statement that tell us absolutely
nothing about Barrios and his experience with the music of Bach.
My suggestion to you is to forget the whole thing. Better spend your
money on a good dinner with your girl friend. She might be convinced
that you know what you are talking about. I am not.
William Jennings
Other people have significant documentation in there procession, I have more. It is time to put your cards on the table, where is your check? It's money time!
The only further discussion we have concerns the money. I call for a decision on this by midnight tonight. If you have not addressed the money you can just fold up your jack-knife and go home. If neither of you can produce, I'm going fishing in South Tropical Texas and forget you. Put your money where your mouth is instead of parsing commas. That sounds like little girl talk to me.
It is very simple now by my own design, What problem do you
have with back up your mouth with cold hard cash?
You act as though you have called some kind of bluff, O.k.
where is your check. It is very, very, simple now.
I repeat for the last time, the check.... There is no need for any more talk!
doc
" You can't run with the big dogs if you pee like a puppy, John Sloan!"
John Sloan wrote:
Let's accept for a moment that John Williams actually
made this statement. In fact, I never doubted that he did.The point is this: by itself, even if he did say it, this
statement is not evidence that Barrios actually recorded
any of the Lute Suites. It's just John Williams' *opinion,*
and needs corroboration.John Sloan
William Jennings wrote:
>
> I have a constructive solution to this quagmire. A student I
> know is going to Italy for advanced studies and can use all the
> money he can get. We can all mail our checks to this student. I
> am quite sure he can verify the words of John Williams in short
> order
> with his contacts there. John Williams known a thing or two
> about Barrios, imho.
>
> The statement you are putting your money on:
>
> " It is thought Barrios was the first to record
> a Bach lute suite."
>
> It ought to be easy to confirm this statement with his contacts
John Philip Dimick
>The statement you are putting your money on:
>
>
> " It is thought Barrios was the first to record
>a Bach lute suite."
Um, is the bet on whether JW actually said that, or is the bet on whether he
was correct? 'Cuz if it's the latter, I'll take some of that action right now!
**JPD thinks real hard: "Barrios was the first to record a Bach lute
suite...Barrios was the first to record a Bach lute suite...Barrios was the
first to record a Bach lute suite...." **
--
John Philip Dimick
j...@guitarist.com
www.guitarist.com
Matanya Ophee
>In article <3885FF48...@texas.net>, jou...@texas.net wrote:
>
>>The statement you are putting your money on:
>>
>>
>> " It is thought Barrios was the first to record
>>a Bach lute suite."
>
>Um, is the bet on whether JW actually said that, or is the bet on whether he
>was correct? 'Cuz if it's the latter, I'll take some of that action right now!
In every bet, there are two people. One is a fool, the other one is a
crook. Doc is looking for a bet, but seeing his way of moving targets
so quickly, one never knows what one is betting on. It's a shell game.
Matanya Ophee
>
>
>Matanya Ophee Folds his cards and fades, changing targets didn't work, he
>has no point other than dinner suggestions. I'm surprised, from the way
>you have talked in the past I thought you where a Player and Game man.
This is not a game, silly. This the very fabric of what I deal
with--historical truth. I don't mind the flippancy of some of your
posts, but when you start providing me with a constantly moving
target, I can't tell which side of your mouth you are talking from.
That kind of game might amuse you, but it is one you are going to have
to play with yourself, not with me.
Thomas F Brown
winning a Usenet debate over an arcane historical question.
This is a rather innovative business model. However, the
terms of the wager he wants to make are not at all well-specified,
and so it's no wonder no one's taken him up on it. A secondary
motivation seems to be to take MO apart in his own house, but
now Jennings is walking away from that one. Maybe he really is
a wimp.
In article <865gcv$tdi$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Matanya Ophee
>My reading is that the Jennings wants to make some money from
>winning a Usenet debate over an arcane historical question.
As JPD pointed out, it is a losing proposition for Jennings. Not an
arcane historical question, but rather a vague statement made by
somebody which means absolutely nothing at all.
>This is a rather innovative business model. However, the
>terms of the wager he wants to make are not at all well-specified,
>and so it's no wonder no one's taken him up on it. A secondary
>motivation seems to be to take MO apart in his own house, but
>now Jennings is walking away from that one. Maybe he really is
>a wimp.
Not a wimp, but simply not having the necessary tools, i.e., the
clinching evidence that he knows what he is talking about. So far, all
I have seen from him is some deep seated need to worship the hallowed
name of Agustin Barrios Mangore, and dragging out whatever obscure
references he can, whether they are germane to discussion or not.
William Jennings
and went fishing. I had a great time and met a Mexican vet who knows snook
better that I do. He has invited me to fish some of his special lagoons
just north of Tampico and you can bet I'm going. Amid that blue water and
lush tropical vegetation this NG has no meaning whatsoever. The
Presidential suite was only 150 U$D and it had it's own swimming pool and
helicopter landing pad on the roof. My kind of self-destruction.
doc
John Sloan wrote:
> Matanya Ophee wrote:
> >
> > Not a wimp, but simply not having the necessary tools, i.e., the
> > clinching evidence that he knows what he is talking about. So far, all
> > I have seen from him is some deep seated need to worship the hallowed
> > name of Agustin Barrios Mangore, and dragging out whatever obscure
> > references he can, whether they are germane to discussion or not.
>
> I like doc. It was sad watching him self-destruct yesterday.
>
> John Sloan