Barrios' Un sueno en la floresta
Francis Minhthang Bui
Hi all,
I'm working on Barrios' Un sueno en la floresta and would like some advices
on playing.
There is a passage which has a high C. This requires playing the note
on the 20th fret -- except there isn't one on my guitar! I think I read
somewhere that Barrios had guitars made for him with an additional fret
to be able to play the high C.
For now, I play the high C on the missing fret anyway but it sounds
very distracting -- kinda like a let-down and not the climax like
it's supposed to be.
In "The Seville Concert", J. Williams seemed to play this passage without
any glitches so I'm convinced it's not humanly impossible :)
(too bad they didn't have a closeup view of this passage in the video)
So how did you handle this problem when you practiced this piece?
Preferably an answer that does not require buying a new guitar please :)
On an unrelated question. While working on Sakura I noticed that Williams
omitted a variation in his recording (compared to the sheet music I have
which says Sakura arranged by Yuquijiro Yocoh). On the contrary, Angel
Romero seemed to play additional variations in his recording "A touch
of Class". My understanding is that Sakura is a Japanese folksong. But was
Yocoh the first composer to arrange this for the guitar i.e. were all
the variations originally composed by him?
Thanks for all comments.
Happying guitar'ing :)
--Francis Bui
b...@enel.ucalgary.ca
William Jennings
There are two arrangements of Sakura. The full arrangement is only available
in Japan.
wdj
Vivienne McLaughlin
>
>I'm working on Barrios' Un sueno en la floresta and would like some advices
>on playing.
>
>There is a passage which has a high C. This requires playing the note
>on the 20th fret -- except there isn't one on my guitar! I think I read
>somewhere that Barrios had guitars made for him with an additional fret
>to be able to play the high C.
Have you tried adding an artificial harmonic by fretting (1) 8 and plucking
at the octave? This may not help if its in the tremolo section (I personally
do not play that piece, but I've seen Williams do it on the tape). If you
_must_ hit it on time, its not illegal to bend the string at the 19th fret
up a half step and pluck it, you know. I see CG do this every now and again.
>any glitches so I'm convinced it's not humanly impossible :)
He's got a Smallman and it has only 19 frets, so he's improvising.
>On an unrelated question. While working on Sakura I noticed that Williams
>omitted a variation in his recording (compared to the sheet music I have
>which says Sakura arranged by Yuquijiro Yocoh). On the contrary, Angel
>Romero seemed to play additional variations in his recording "A touch
>of Class". My understanding is that Sakura is a Japanese folksong. But was
>Yocoh the first composer to arrange this for the guitar i.e. were all
>the variations originally composed by him?
>
Performers and composers will often adapt a piece by taloring it to their
liking. I would suggest you do the same. I found from studying pieces by
Bream, Parkening and Williams on CD that
1) I should listen to a great many different recordings of the piece by
different performers, especially "lesser" named folks, to get a better
perspective of how it _can_ and _should_ be played. I used to think Asturias
should be played lightening quick until I listened to others besides Bream
and Williams play it. Since then, Iv'e slowed it down considerably and it
has worked wonderfully.
2) I should adapt it to my personal playing style. In other words, I
shouldn't try to sound like Williams or Romero or Bream, but instead sound
like Vivienne.
When I play Barrios, I find this is essential, because his music has a
"folk" quality which sounds powerful when played from the heart, as opposed
to reliance on stylistic interpretations of other players. In addition,
Williams IMO does not do justice to the soulful quality of Barrios, so I'd
be careful. As far as YY's Sak. Variations, you might want to study and
listen to more Japanese folk melodies, as this piece was written to evoke
the feeling of the traditional Sakura melody - a very tricky maneuver. Once
you get a feeling for the traditional melody, you may want to add your own
"variations."
Vivienne
Dwmustoe
He uses a bit of match stick and says so in the liner notes to the CD LATIN
AMERICAN GUITAR MUSIC BY BARRIOS AND PONCE.
Gek Siong Low
> Have you tried adding an artificial harmonic by fretting (1) 8 and plucking
> at the octave? This may not help if its in the tremolo section (I personally
> do not play that piece, but I've seen Williams do it on the tape). If you
> _must_ hit it on time, its not illegal to bend the string at the 19th fret
> up a half step and pluck it, you know. I see CG do this every now and again.
It's the tremolo section he's talking about. I don't think tremolo works
well with pitch bending. I have the tape too and I don't think that's how
Williams do it. He didn't play the 20th fret anyway in the Seville
recording.
The only recording I have where he plays the 20th fret is an old
recording. I think it's called "Latin American Music" or something, I
don't have the CD with me right now.
> He's got a Smallman and it has only 19 frets, so he's improvising.
Yes, that's right. There's no way I'm going to stick a toothpick or
matchstick or whatever at the end of the fretboard to play the original
version, there just isn't enough real estate on my guitar for that. Most
guitars have only 19 frets, not just the Smallman. Count them. Barrios'
guitar was different.
> 1) I should listen to a great many different recordings of the piece by
> different performers, especially "lesser" named folks, to get a better
> perspective of how it _can_ and _should_ be played. I used to think Asturias
> should be played lightening quick until I listened to others besides Bream
> and Williams play it. Since then, Iv'e slowed it down considerably and it
> has worked wonderfully.
Have you heard Segovia's version of Asturias? It is very different in
rhythm from the way most people play it. It sounds weird to me when I
first heard it, but I'm starting to like it more and more.
> 2) I should adapt it to my personal playing style. In other words, I
> shouldn't try to sound like Williams or Romero or Bream, but instead sound
> like Vivienne.
It's generally good advice, but first I'll have to know what you sound
like. :-)
Gek
Vivienne McLaughlin
> It's the tremolo section he's talking about. I don't think tremolo works
> well with pitch bending. I have the tape too and I don't think that's how
> Williams do it. He didn't play the 20th fret anyway in the Seville
> recording.
I've just recalled that the recording of Barrios on the Seville Concert is
actually from his Barrios CD from the jungles of Paraguay, I believe. I haven't
played the piece, but if I ever do, there are ways to get around anything. My
favorite is to write bits and pieces into a composition by saying "Yeah, Rodrigo
would have wanted it that way."
> > 1) I should listen to a great many different recordings of the piece by
> > different performers, especially "lesser" named folks, to get a better
> > perspective of how it _can_ and _should_ be played. I used to think Asturias
> > should be played lightening quick until I listened to others besides Bream
> > and Williams play it. Since then, Iv'e slowed it down considerably and it
> > has worked wonderfully.
>
> Have you heard Segovia's version of Asturias? It is very different in
> rhythm from the way most people play it. It sounds weird to me when I
> first heard it, but I'm starting to like it more and more.
>
Yes. It sounds like Spain distilled and bottled for my drinking pleasure. Careful,
too much and you'll get drunk and sick, then you'll be puking up chunks of Madrid,
Andaluza, and bits and pieces of Spanish castle mortar.
> > 2) I should adapt it to my personal playing style. In other words, I
> > shouldn't try to sound like Williams or Romero or Bream, but instead sound
> > like Vivienne.
>
> It's generally good advice, but first I'll have to know what you sound
> like. :-)
Hire a Idaho farmer from Bellevue Mental Hospital to beat a small child with a
household pet.. I sound like the opposite of that.
Vivienne (for the record, I do not advocate corporal punishment, unless youv'e
been a bad corporal . . .)
William Jennings
version, there just isn't enough real estate on my guitar for that"
Barrios did. Yes, he had a guitar made with a 20th. fret but that was after the
fact. I am sure you can find someone to
make a clip on fret. I did, it's not illegal.... and if it is in your state, do
it anyway, just tell them I said it was o.k.
I don't look to John William's to approve or lend credence to anything I say and
neither did Barrios. ;-)
As always, you can take it or leave it. Mox nix.
wdj
Gek Siong Low wrote:
> On Wed, 5 May 1999, Vivienne McLaughlin wrote:
>
> > Have you tried adding an artificial harmonic by fretting (1) 8 and plucking
> > at the octave? This may not help if its in the tremolo section (I personally
> > do not play that piece, but I've seen Williams do it on the tape). If you
> > _must_ hit it on time, its not illegal to bend the string at the 19th fret
> > up a half step and pluck it, you know. I see CG do this every now and again.
>
> It's the tremolo section he's talking about. I don't think tremolo works
> well with pitch bending. I have the tape too and I don't think that's how
> Williams do it. He didn't play the 20th fret anyway in the Seville
> recording.
>
> The only recording I have where he plays the 20th fret is an old
> recording. I think it's called "Latin American Music" or something, I
> don't have the CD with me right now.
>
> > He's got a Smallman and it has only 19 frets, so he's improvising.
>
> Yes, that's right. There's no way I'm going to stick a toothpick or
> matchstick or whatever at the end of the fretboard to play the original
> version, there just isn't enough real estate on my guitar for that. Most
> guitars have only 19 frets, not just the Smallman. Count them. Barrios'
> guitar was different.
>
> > 1) I should listen to a great many different recordings of the piece by
> > different performers, especially "lesser" named folks, to get a better
> > perspective of how it _can_ and _should_ be played. I used to think Asturias
> > should be played lightening quick until I listened to others besides Bream
> > and Williams play it. Since then, Iv'e slowed it down considerably and it
> > has worked wonderfully.
>
> Have you heard Segovia's version of Asturias? It is very different in
> rhythm from the way most people play it. It sounds weird to me when I
> first heard it, but I'm starting to like it more and more.
>
> > 2) I should adapt it to my personal playing style. In other words, I
> > shouldn't try to sound like Williams or Romero or Bream, but instead sound
> > like Vivienne.
>
> It's generally good advice, but first I'll have to know what you sound
> like. :-)
>
> Gek
Peter Inglis
You mean you "re-compose" the piece!
Peter Inglis
gui...@migman.com.au
Re-composers welcomw at
http://www.migman.com.au/aes
Vivienne McLaughlin wrote in message <3730B709...@bellsouth.net>...
<snip>, there are ways to get around anything. My
>favorite is to write bits and pieces into a composition by saying "Yeah,
Rodrigo
>would have wanted it that way."
<snip>
John Saldivar
Peter Inglis wrote in message <37319...@pink.one.net.au>...
John Saldivar
really good guitar or a guitar that has enough fretboard to simply glue a
matchstick on. I actually did it for a few friends several years ago and my
old guitar still has the 20th fret I added specifically for Sueno en la
Floresta but also for a couple of Johann Kaspar Mertz pieces that require
it.
First you determine where the 20 fret would have to be in order to produce
the correct sound. (Remember the top C in Sueno is only played for two
measures). Next you go out and get some fret wire and some really light but
somewhat strong wood (I have to be carefully because me guitar maker
participates in these discussions all the time ). I used the wood from a
clothespin (the kind with the metal spring in the middle) because it is
light, strong and has plenty of porosity which I will explain the
significance of later. The fret wire I actually got from a friend who
repairs electric guitars and you should have no trouble finding one of these
guys in your area. OK, remove the top (1,2,3) three strings or loosen them
enough to have a comfortable workplace. Take half of the clothes pin and
break or cut the fat end off and place it in the area at the end of the
fingerboard where you want to extend it. Next take a pencil and mark out the
area of clothespin wood you would have to sand or in my case grind away.
Depending on the thickness of your fingerboard and how it tapers at the end,
you might have quite a bit of wood to remove but the idea is to create and
extension to your fingerboard that is strong enough to support and extra
fret and that is not noticeably ugly in appearance. This is where you have
to be really creative but it pays off in the end. After you have carefully
shaped the extension you need to prepare the area where you will be applying
Super Glue to. I lightly sanded a small portion of the fingerboard that
would be making contact with the foreign wood in order to get better
contact. Before attaching the wood extension, I simply used a black
“Sharpie” magic marker to color the wood from the clothespin a similar color
to the fretboard. Once again, you can get a little more creative here and
perhaps dye it USMC black or something appropriate. Next, after the wood is
dry, sand it lightly once more to ensure good contact and then glue it to
the end of your fretboard. The porosity of the wood I mention earlier seemed
to help the wood absorb the glue really well and it actually dried really
fast. You should now have enough “Real Estate” to go with either a
matchstick, fretwire or whatever you would like to glue but I recommend real
fretwire since it will draw less attention to the area and look more
natural.
Making the fret is a little harder but it can be done. The electric guitar
fretwire (or rather heavy gauge fret) my friend gave me was about 4 inches
in length but I only used about an inch of it or less. It is a good idea to
keep it long and then cut it later because you will be grinding off the back
part of the fretwire that normally gets hammered into grooves that luthiers
saw out. I do not know exactly what that part of the fretwire is called but
it is not needed in this case since this is not a note we are playing in
every single piece anyway. After grinding the back part of the fret, put it
where it will eventually go and make some mental notes. Make sure it is not
too tall and that it is not lopsided. What I mean is, make sure that when
you play other notes like the high b (19th fret) in perhaps Sagreras’ El
Colibri or something, that the 20th fret will not cause others to buzz.
After you completely shape the fret perfectly and cut it down to the right
size with wire cutters, sand any left over sharp edges with a metal file
again to avoid sharp edges on wither side. Next glue the fretwire in the
appropriate spot with some super glue and wait for it to dry.
After everything dries, you should be ready to play on it.
To summarize everything above, the basic idea is to create enough space on
your fretboard so that you can add an extra note. Another alternative is to
get the Richard Stover edition of Sueno en La Floresta which has an
alternative passage for the setion that requires the top C or get a guitar
with 20 frets!
Hope this info helps. And feel free to modify and repost these instructions
to make them a bit clearer.
-John
William Jennings wrote in message <3730B77A...@texas.net>...
Francis Minhthang Bui
In article <7gsr95$p31$1...@hiram.io.com>, John Saldivar <craz...@io.com> wrote:
...good stuff on adding additional fret snipped...
>To summarize everything above, the basic idea is to create enough space on
>your fretboard so that you can add an extra note. Another alternative is to
>get the Richard Stover edition of Sueno en La Floresta which has an
>alternative passage for the setion that requires the top C or get a guitar
>with 20 frets!
Thanks for the detailed description on how to add the extra fret.
However, while my guitar isn't the best, I don't think I would want to
try this method just to play 2 measures of one piece -- no matter
how great it is :)
I will look for Stover edition for an alternative. For now,
I'm sort of cheating by playing the 19th fret instead of the 20th
and the difference is not even noticeable ... well not if you're
one of those perfectionists who look for these sort of mistakes :)
Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread.
--Francis Bui
b...@enel.ucalgary.ca
David Schramm
John Saldivar wrote:
> (I have to be carefully because me guitar maker
> participates in these discussions all the time ).
Who could that be?;-)
DS
John Saldivar
of the top C. I have a video of Williams playing it in 1976 in Australia
where he does this. Barrios did not always have a guitar with 20 frets on
hand. In fact the Di Giorgio was the only one I can think of. He played a
Jose Ramirez II for a while and I know it only had 19 frets. I do not think
it would be copyright infringement if I were to scan that measure of the
stover version and e-mail it to someone who is willing to post it on their
website for interested player to view. Just let me know.
-John
Francis Minhthang Bui wrote in message <7gt913$d...@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>...
>Hi,
>
>In article <7gsr95$p31$1...@hiram.io.com>, John Saldivar <craz...@io.com>
wrote:
>
>...good stuff on adding additional fret snipped...
>
>>To summarize everything above, the basic idea is to create enough space on
>>your fretboard so that you can add an extra note. Another alternative is
to
>>get the Richard Stover edition of Sueno en La Floresta which has an
>>alternative passage for the setion that requires the top C or get a guitar
>>with 20 frets!
>