Weiss and my children
Richard F. Sayage
I was gratified and somewhat surprised to see my daughters jumping, clapping
and dancing to the music of the Musette and then the Paysane. Big smiles on
their faces, and a larger one on my own.
Rich
--
Richard F. Sayage
www.savageclassical.com
Remove ZEROSPAM to reply...thx
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
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Steven Bornfeld
Richard F. Sayage wrote:
> Playing thru Weiss' L'Infidele Lute Sonata, and the process of editing,
> I was gratified and somewhat surprised to see my daughters jumping, clapping
> and dancing to the music of the Musette and then the Paysane. Big smiles on
> their faces, and a larger one on my own.
>
> Rich
I play just about anything, my daughter tells me to can it.
Steve
>
Carlos Barrientos
<dentaltw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Richard F. Sayage wrote:
>> Playing thru Weiss' L'Infidele Lute Sonata, and the process of editing,
>> I was gratified and somewhat surprised to see my daughters jumping, clapping
>> and dancing to the music of the Musette and then the Paysane. Big smiles on
>> their faces, and a larger one on my own.
>>
>> Rich
Nice Rich, I envy you!
>
> I play just about anything, my daughter tells me to can it.
>
>Steve
TOUGHHHH ROOM!!!
;)
>
>>
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (229)-438-1087
"The guitar is the ideal instrument for anyone who
is able to love loneliness." -- Angelo Gilardino
sycochkn
Bob
"Steven Bornfeld" <dentaltw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:411F6ECA...@earthlink.net...
Steven Bornfeld
sycochkn wrote:
> My wife calls my guitar obscene names. I am probably next.
>
> Bob
My wife might think my guitar safer to kick, but she could be wrong.
Steve
>
richard c. spross
his children enjoy Weiss.
Richard Spross.
p.s. The last thing that danced to my playing was Ms. Kitty
who while she was visiting as a house guest, would leap around
the living room wildly up in the air as I played Bach's gm fuge.
Richard F. Sayage
had just taken notice of my children dancing, realized it was because of
what I was playing, smiled and thought to share it immediately. I mean the
notebook is sitting right there, on a big table/desk in my studio. Maybe I
should move it to a different room!? :-)
I should point out that I was sight-reading some tough stuff last night
and was doing a miserable job of it. This is kind of new for me. Used to
pride myself on great sight-reading skills. All this tells me is I need to
re-work on it. Being in the key of Db was no excuse. I was punching thru
Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, the 3 movements, and it was just plain ugly in
the 2nd. I was playing with a good friend of mine, him on Bass, and it was
putrid because of me. I should point out that my children were not dancing
and my wife was not smiling. My friend left disgusted, and my cat peed on
me. A good morning, not a good night. :-)
Rich
"Richard F. Sayage" <rsay...@ZEROSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:mSITc.1847$5b4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> Well, you guys sure cracked me up a few times. When I wrote this, I
> had just taken notice of my children dancing, realized it was because of
> what I was playing, smiled and thought to share it immediately. I mean the
> notebook is sitting right there, on a big table/desk in my studio. Maybe I
> should move it to a different room!? :-)
>
> I should point out that I was sight-reading some tough stuff last night
> and was doing a miserable job of it. This is kind of new for me. Used to
> pride myself on great sight-reading skills. All this tells me is I need to
> re-work on it. Being in the key of Db was no excuse.
I dunno. To me, that's a great excuse! ;-)
Steve
I was punching thru
> Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, the 3 movements, and it was just plain ugly in
> the 2nd. I was playing with a good friend of mine, him on Bass, and it was
> putrid because of me. I should point out that my children were not dancing
> and my wife was not smiling. My friend left disgusted, and my cat peed on
> me. A good morning, not a good night. :-)
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
> "Richard F. Sayage" <rsay...@ZEROSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
> news:mSITc.1847$5b4.5...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
>
>> Playing thru Weiss' L'Infidele Lute Sonata, and the process of
>
> editing,
>
>>I was gratified and somewhat surprised to see my daughters jumping,
>
> clapping
>
>>and dancing to the music of the Musette and then the Paysane. Big smiles
>
> on
>
>>their faces, and a larger one on my own.
>>
>>Rich
>>
>>--
>>Richard F. Sayage
>>www.savageclassical.com
>>
>>Remove ZEROSPAM to reply...thx
>>
>>http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
>>http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
Richard F. Sayage
"Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS" <bornfe...@dentaltwins.com> wrote in message
news:2od0e2F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Richard F. Sayage wrote:
>
> > Well, you guys sure cracked me up a few times. When I wrote this,
I
> > had just taken notice of my children dancing, realized it was because of
> > what I was playing, smiled and thought to share it immediately. I mean
the
> > notebook is sitting right there, on a big table/desk in my studio.
Maybe I
> > should move it to a different room!? :-)
> >
> > I should point out that I was sight-reading some tough stuff last
night
> > and was doing a miserable job of it. This is kind of new for me. Used
to
> > pride myself on great sight-reading skills. All this tells me is I need
to
> > re-work on it. Being in the key of Db was no excuse.
>
>
> I dunno. To me, that's a great excuse! ;-)
>
> Steve
Well, that's just cuz you're a nice guy, Steve. :-)
Rich
GIMME
played the Moonlight Sonata flawlessly. Mr. Parkening opined
that it's not a good idea to work on a piece which is closely
associated with being played on another instrument. In this case
solo piano. He also said you'd never here a piece like that played
by a solo guiar player in Lincoln Center.
I think that ended up bumming out the performer. Later when
he played it he seemed tensed up and later complained that
he felt he hadn't played well.
Richard F. Sayage
say that everyone has a different take on things. Funny, but I get a lot of
offers to play my stuff on the outside. Now what's that about?
I think "my" simple take on music is this....new, original, different,
but for chrissakes, let it be musical. Then there's the "How many great
recordings of "pick a famous piece" can we hear" thing. Great, it's part
of the repertoire. Fantastic....Yes, we got that...anything new? No.
Hmmm, moving on. Next customer! Move aside, please...
My point is, I just don't buy into it. But, I've been around a long
time, played all the accepted stuff (well mostly anyway), and I figured
there was a different way to go. I spend more time writing than anything.
That was the whole point. I spent one decade studying, three decades
playing, writing and arranging the whole way, and I've determined that I
don't know anything but what I hear. What rocks my soul. What's that I'm
humming kind of thing. I wake up in the middle of the night, and jot
something down. Funny, I dream music. I think I'm lucky this way.
Then again, some will point out "new" music. Sorry, but I've been
reading quite a bit of new music, contemporary guitar and all. I'm not
thrilled. I've come across a few good things, including selections from our
ever gracious Angelo Gilardino. There are some others that are cool, but
the list is likely to be short, and well, I'm gonna piss a whole bunch of
people off. Hmmm, think I did already. But I'm no expert in contemp music,
as I've stated many times.
Then there's undiscovered guitar music, or "not so" discovered. Well,
I'm sure there are gems within those folds. I just found a few by way of
friends and some archives of music within my large library, that went
neglected for over 10 years! Christ, can't imagine holding a Ramirez and
sitting in Matanya's library or Doc's storage house. I'd be there for
weeks, guests come over, "who's that"?, some guy that I can't get to leave,
where's my shotgun kind of thing...
My point is I know a lot, but I don't know everything, so take all the
above with a bag of saltines coming from me.
Here's something I do know, and I think we can all agree....Music, good
music stands on its own. Doesn't really matter what you use to play it, not
IMHO. For my taste, the Baroque masters had a certain purity. The music
that begot the rules as it were...this is where I like to live. It's my own
taste. Apparently, quite a few share it. I'm a Mozart and Bach man.
Beethoven, Chopin, and then of course assorted pieces by many great
composers. Funny thing about Mozart. His music is very instrument
specific. On the other hand, Bach translates universally. But we've
discussed this at some previous time. And I see that I'm moving far away
from what you commented on, which was very interesting, but in a round about
way, I think I addressed it. My apologies. I feel for your buddy at the
class.
As for what I was reading, well it was for simply that, reading. I like
to throw open orchestral scores and read the parts. Old habits die hard.
It's why I was so good at it. Jeez, I wonder what happened? Oh yeah...the
gotdam lute music and its inherent tablature! I thinks it ruined me...Roman
will probably blame it on me drinking Corona's! What can one say, once in
the gutter, well, the sewer just feels like home...
BTW, I was just playing Fugue #3 from the Well Tempered Clavier. I'll
be recording it soon. Looking and listening from the outside, I don't care
what no one says, this stuff plays and for people who are interested, they
would love to see this played. That's not a plug, it's a simple observation
as it refers to the top. Technical wizardry and music that just moves you
(you just can't believe what you can make your fingers do). I'm sorry, but
I just don't see anything wrong with that.
Writing on the top of messages seems weird btw....I always figured it
was a context thing. Oh christ, another thread...doh! peace...
Rich
--
Richard F. Sayage
www.savageclassical.com
Remove ZEROSPAM to reply...thx
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"GIMME" <gimme_this...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f12b4fb.04081...@posting.google.com...
Richard Yates
> played the Moonlight Sonata flawlessly. Mr. Parkening opined
> that it's not a good idea to work on a piece which is closely
> associated with being played on another instrument.
Well, if he did say this then he essentially invalidated the majority of his
own career.
Richard Yates
John Wasak
>
> Then again, some will point out "new" music. Sorry, but I've been
> reading quite a bit of new music, contemporary guitar and all. I'm not
> thrilled. I've come across a few good things, including selections from
our
> ever gracious Angelo Gilardino. There are some others that are cool, but
> the list is likely to be short, and well, I'm gonna piss a whole bunch of
> people off. Hmmm, think I did already. But I'm no expert in contemp
music,
> as I've stated many times.
>
Rich, Rich, Rich,.... without new music, music would die!
Why should this Art form of music be any different than any other? Imagine
if there were no new paintings after Piero della Francesca. Imagine if
there were no new novels after Dickens. Imagine if Rock music never went
beyond Elvis.
No, no, no....Art must always be a part of it's time, not apart from it's
time.
It is such a terrible sadness to see in a most regular fashion in this NG
how the music written today by living composers is so ignored. This is the
great tragedy of what gets said around here. Not that we insult each other,
not that we banter, not that some stuffy professionals might not post a few
tidbits, but that the music that is living and breathing as we speak is so
ignored, so little understood, so little accepted. _That_ is the great
tragedy of our musical time.
jw
John Wasak
news:10i852j...@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe he's changed his mind?
jw
Richard F. Sayage
John. I buy it, I look at it, I find a few good within. Just as the boys
back then must have felt about "their" contemporary music. I'm just
spoiled I guess :-)
Rich
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Z6VUc.27398$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Richard F. Sayage
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Z6VUc.27398$9Y6....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Richard F. Sayage <rsay...@ZEROSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
> news:BNTUc.25977$vc4.10...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
> >
> > Then again, some will point out "new" music. Sorry, but I've been
> > reading quite a bit of new music, contemporary guitar and all. I'm not
> > thrilled. I've come across a few good things, including selections from
> our
> > ever gracious Angelo Gilardino. There are some others that are cool,
but
> > the list is likely to be short, and well, I'm gonna piss a whole bunch
of
> > people off. Hmmm, think I did already. But I'm no expert in contemp
> music,
> > as I've stated many times.
> >
>
> Rich, Rich, Rich,.... without new music, music would die!
Again, I agree, but can it please be musical. Also, I'm no expert in
contemporary guitar music, as I said. But I am a compositional and
theoretical music expert in general. What I'm going to say may piss a whole
bunch of people off, but that's gonna have to be okay.
This is not simply a taste issue. I'm a rule breaker as much as the
next man, but contemporary composers fall very short in their construction.
The ear has guided the basic rules throughout history. Breaking those
basics is not going to ever work. Our ears tell us this. But this takes
time for the composing community to learn. It's my opinion that we should
go back and start again. Experimentation is one thing, but to do it again
and again, is unbearable. I mean, it is supposed to be music, right?
Facetious but true. Bear in mind this is in my opinion, which is also and
probably unbearable :-)
One thought: Could you imagine if movie scorers decided to compose
along the same misguided line? Hmmm, care to see an industry disappear?
Might answer some relevant questions....
>
> Why should this Art form of music be any different than any other?
Imagine
> if there were no new paintings after Piero della Francesca. Imagine if
> there were no new novels after Dickens. Imagine if Rock music never went
> beyond Elvis.
>
> No, no, no....Art must always be a part of it's time, not apart from it's
> time.
>
> It is such a terrible sadness to see in a most regular fashion in this NG
> how the music written today by living composers is so ignored. This is
the
> great tragedy of what gets said around here. Not that we insult each
other,
> not that we banter, not that some stuffy professionals might not post a
few
> tidbits, but that the music that is living and breathing as we speak is so
> ignored, so little understood, so little accepted. _That_ is the great
> tragedy of our musical time.
>
If it's good, it won't be ignored. Then again, it takes time for music
to be discovered, in my experience. But this take on it all is just going
to start some kind of war. Ah, probably too late. Well, I like what I
like, and that's all there is to it.
Rich
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> At Parkening's Master Class this year one of the performers
> played the Moonlight Sonata flawlessly. Mr. Parkening opined
> that it's not a good idea to work on a piece which is closely
> associated with being played on another instrument. In this case
> solo piano. He also said you'd never here a piece like that played
> by a solo guiar player in Lincoln Center.
Ya know, I've seen Parkening live once--I believe about 1993 at Alice
Tully Hall (in Lincoln Center). I'm going to have to see if I can dig
out the program and see if in fact there are no transcriptions on it.
I agree with Richard Yates that this has a wee smell of hypocrisy about it.
Steve
>
> I think that ended up bumming out the performer. Later when
> he played it he seemed tensed up and later complained that
> he felt he hadn't played well.
>
>
>
>>I was punching thru
>>Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata, the 3 movements, and it was just plain ugly in
>>the 2nd.
Sam Culotta
I thought the same thing when I read this. It's either out of context or CP
just wasn't thinking.
I'm thinking of the Gymnopedie's, the Bach Cello suites, the Bach violin
partita, the Ravel Pavanne, the Poulenc Pastourelle, to name a few from his
'The Artistry of Christopher Parkening " CD.
Or, maybe he means the opprobrium for students only..
but I'll bet he was working on some when he was learning.
I'd be interested to know what he actually meant, or the context in which he
said it.
Sam
>
>
John Wasak
Howdy, Rich. I hope you realize I wasn't only directing this to only you.
And of course, everyone is free to like or dislike what they want. As for
rule breaking, well, I think that's what most great Art is all about. The
"rules" of Paleolithic Art are not the rules of Renaissance Art, are not the
rules of Impressionist Art, are not the rules of Abstract Expressionist Art,
are not the rules of Pop Art, are not the rules of.....etc. I don't think
great Art is about playing by the rules but about making us think and have
us feel whatever might be evoked by those thoughts. It needs to have an
impact, like a slap in the face. If one needs to break the rules to do that
then why not?... if not, then fine too.
Let's also add that just because music is "new", that is, it is music by
contemporary composers, it doesn't mean that it all follows one particular
style or way of composition. There are plenty of melodious pieces around in
the way of contemporary music that are artful and, I would guess, "musical".
Definitions of 'musical', I think, are like those of beauty - variable to
the beholder.
> One thought: Could you imagine if movie scorers decided to compose
> along the same misguided line? Hmmm, care to see an industry disappear?
> Might answer some relevant questions....
>
Well, again, I think we're gonna' disagree about misguided lines. Now, I
don't pay much attention to what's going on in movies today so I can't speak
too much to that, but I've seen plenty of the great classics of cinema of
the 20th Century. If you mean that film music is only supposed to fall
into some category that a popular music listening public would consider
'musical' to be effective, then how do we explain something like Hermann's
screaming violins in the shower scene of 'Psycho'? I'd say that might just
be the epitome of the effectiveness of the marrriage betweeen music and
film. The whole score is a masterwork of what could be called a "black and
white" music that throbbed sonorously as often as it gnawed at the nerve
endings. Yet it might not be everyone's idea of the music they really want
to hear. How about the music in many parts of Kubrick's 'The Shining'?
There's Bartok, and Ligeti, and Penderecki. There's probably a lot more
people inhabiting this planet that don't want to hear these guy's music than
that do, but still, who can deny their effectiveness when synchronized to
the drama on the screen?
I think all Art has to consider effectiveness more than sticking some rules.
Of course, going against the rules is a risk, and the mere act of just going
against rules sure isn't any guarantee of making great Art.
>
> >
> > Why should this Art form of music be any different than any other?
> Imagine
> > if there were no new paintings after Piero della Francesca. Imagine if
> > there were no new novels after Dickens. Imagine if Rock music never
went
> > beyond Elvis.
> >
> > No, no, no....Art must always be a part of it's time, not apart from
it's
> > time.
> >
> > It is such a terrible sadness to see in a most regular fashion in this
NG
> > how the music written today by living composers is so ignored. This is
> the
> > great tragedy of what gets said around here. Not that we insult each
> other,
> > not that we banter, not that some stuffy professionals might not post a
> few
> > tidbits, but that the music that is living and breathing as we speak is
so
> > ignored, so little understood, so little accepted. _That_ is the great
> > tragedy of our musical time.
> >
>
> If it's good, it won't be ignored.
Would that this were true.
> Then again, it takes time for music
> to be discovered, in my experience.
It takes time also for many to develop an "ear" leading to the discovery but
it doesn't happen without having the experience. My feeling has always been
that if you just listen to contemporary music long enough it just might
"grow" on you! ;-)
> But this take on it all is just going
> to start some kind of war. Ah, probably too late. Well, I like what I
> like, and that's all there is to it.
>
> Rich
>
No war necessary. ;-)
jw
Richard F. Sayage
This is a thoughtful response, requiring time that I don't have at the
moment. Rest assured, I agree with much that you say, and that I'll do my
best to get back at you on some key points. Btw, I love Hitchcock. Have
his entire library collected over the last few years.
Rich
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3rtVc.8036$3O3....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
John Wasak
> This is a thoughtful response, requiring time that I don't have at the
> moment. Rest assured, I agree with much that you say, and that I'll do my
> best to get back at you on some key points.
No problem, Rich. I was a little short on time myself, which is why I
didn't get to a response myself till now.
>Btw, I love Hitchcock. Have
> his entire library collected over the last few years.
>
> Rich
>
Great stuff!
jw
Richard F. Sayage
Alrighty then, I'm gonna start, but probably not finish....also, I see
the danger of a circular debate, so let's try to ... well...I don't even
know, but whatever it is, let's try :-)
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3rtVc.8036$3O3....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
OK, it's all cool. I don't take stuff personal, I just speaks my mind.
That's gotta be good enough for me and everyone else.
Great art is not about rules, I agree. But!!!! music is a wee bit
different, imo.. thought evoking is good, slap in face not so good, and
good music (the kind you will listen to) doesn't do certain things. For
instance, slap the parallel fourths and fifths together and ram that down
your throat for 5 minutes. I've seen a lot of this and other poorish
examples, in what may be considered highly regarded modern scores, guitar or
otherwise? Another for instance is to make the percussive effect of the
guitar the thing, the theme, the whatever about the piece. The players
ability to beat their instrument versus play it. I'm probably not saying
this right, pressed for time and all. anyway....
Effect is one thing, even with contemporary music, movie scores or
whatever, but to constantly break the basic rules of harmony is a disastrous
road. Now bending!!! ah....most different...this may be the greyish area
of the "art".... and the path least taken by modern boys.
>
> Let's also add that just because music is "new", that is, it is music by
> contemporary composers, it doesn't mean that it all follows one particular
> style or way of composition. There are plenty of melodious pieces around
in
> the way of contemporary music that are artful and, I would guess,
"musical".
> Definitions of 'musical', I think, are like those of beauty - variable to
> the beholder.
Agreed. Style or way is beside the point. If a composer doesn't get it,
they never will. Doesn't matter what you're writing. There are acceptables
and non-acceptables. Trying to twist a melody with its harmonic or
accompaniment counterpart into something new or different for the sake of
such is hardly more than an exercise and a throwable one at that. Variable
to the beholder! yes...even some like Yoko (okay that was extreme...so
forgive)..
>
>
> > One thought: Could you imagine if movie scorers decided to
compose
> > along the same misguided line? Hmmm, care to see an industry disappear?
> > Might answer some relevant questions....
> >
>
> Well, again, I think we're gonna' disagree about misguided lines. Now, I
> don't pay much attention to what's going on in movies today so I can't
speak
> too much to that, but I've seen plenty of the great classics of cinema of
> the 20th Century. If you mean that film music is only supposed to fall
> into some category that a popular music listening public would consider
> 'musical' to be effective, then how do we explain something like Hermann's
> screaming violins in the shower scene of 'Psycho'? I'd say that might
just
> be the epitome of the effectiveness of the marrriage betweeen music and
> film. The whole score is a masterwork of what could be called a "black and
> white" music that throbbed sonorously as often as it gnawed at the nerve
> endings. Yet it might not be everyone's idea of the music they really want
> to hear. How about the music in many parts of Kubrick's 'The Shining'?
> There's Bartok, and Ligeti, and Penderecki. There's probably a lot more
> people inhabiting this planet that don't want to hear these guy's music
than
> that do, but still, who can deny their effectiveness when synchronized to
> the drama on the screen?
Yes, and then no....don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but I'm
looking at it more from an evocation point of view. This is where the great
screen composers shine. As you've pointed out. Hmmm, maybe we agree, and I
just didn't say it right the first time! :-)
And no, I didn't mean that film music falls into some category that a
popular music listening public would consider 'musical' as you said.
Clearly music, orchestration, and or electronic music (ugh) or anything else
can be used to various effectiveness and effect, from pure musical
consideration (meaning construction of movements, themes, development, etc.)
to those screeches you mention.
Also, I may know more of Bartok and others than I let on. Let's leave
it at that...at least for the time being.
>
> I think all Art has to consider effectiveness more than sticking some
rules.
> Of course, going against the rules is a risk, and the mere act of just
going
> against rules sure isn't any guarantee of making great Art.
Absolutely!
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Why should this Art form of music be any different than any other?
> > Imagine
> > > if there were no new paintings after Piero della Francesca. Imagine
if
> > > there were no new novels after Dickens. Imagine if Rock music never
> went
> > > beyond Elvis.
Well some would like to be stuck in one time, me for instance, but of
course, you are right.
I've listened to more than I care to admit. No growing on me is happening.
It's been twenty years and more to the date. Oh well... :-) Maybe I just
ain't growed up. Now that's the most accurate thing I might have said here
so far.
>
> > But this take on it all is just going
> > to start some kind of war. Ah, probably too late. Well, I like what I
> > like, and that's all there is to it.
> >
> > Rich
> >
>
> No war necessary. ;-)
Of course not...I was thinking maybe others will take some jabs....well let
'em jab away...I gots an iron jaw and a titanium fist. Thanks John, you've
got a great perspective. The danger of writing in this medium, and danger
is a strong word, but you know what I mean, well...it's that, given time
constraints, we're just not ever going to say it as completely as we would
like. This is a huge topic, Í Ahy of lingering discussion. As we have
time, no?
Rich
Richard F. Sayage
"Richard F. Sayage" <rsay...@ZEROSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
> Hey John,
>
This is a huge topic, อ Ahy of lingering discussion. As we have
> time, no?
>
Don't ask me, but that was supposed to read "worthy of lingering..." ???
The characters no translate I guess..