what's the deal with pizzicato
arys
method or a matter of tone color?
Can I just play a pizzicato passage with normal technique if I think
it sounds better, maybe using heavy staccato instead, or is it
comparable to changing a note or wildly ignoring dynamic markings?
Or, to the contrary, can I just throw in some pounding orchestral
pizzicato if I just feel like it? There are places in the final fourth
movement of Martelli's piece that so just beg for it. (Actually it's
the first piece with I use it!)
And, of course, I'm not talking about any crazy effect-centered
contemporary music here.
-Matti Karjalainen
Dicerous
David Russell uses his nose sometimes.
David
agil
"arys" <mil...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:6918613f-24ef-4ef7...@z14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Pizzicato is a strange definition, when used in guitar music.
Actually, and broadly speaking, all guitar sounds are the result of a
"pizzicato" action, and in Italian guitar is classifies among instruments "a
pizzico". Then, "pizzicato" is a properly given instruction when applied to
string instruments normally played with a bow: violin, viola, cello,
doublebass, and it orders to players to produce notes with plucking the
strings. In fact, when returning to the ordinary tone production, the word
"arco" (bow) is added by the composer. Pizzicato is, then, an effect
employed to make bow-instruments sounding like a guitar (it is famous the
example given in Debussy "Iberia", where violins, besides playing pizzicato,
should be hold like guitars). When used in guitar music, pizzicato designs a
guitar imitating violins or cellos which imitate guitars: Victor Victoria.
Some composers of guitar music prefer the French etouffé, or the Spanish
apagado. Fernando Sor instructs in his Method to produce etouffé not with
covering strings with r.h., but with placing l.h. fingers upon the frets,
and not close to them. It's an effective technique, though I can't see how
applying it to some passages marked etouffé in Sor's music (see for instance
a whole variation in his Fantasia op. 7). Pujol makes subtle
discriminations among various categories of etouffé, and gives detailed
instructions about how producing them. When active as a guitarist, I used to
produce etouffé with muting strings, very close to the bridge, with r.h.
little finger used barrè-like, and plucking muted strings with p-i-m.
I believe it is a useful resource, and staccato is not at all the same
thing.
ag
Dicerous
> "arys" <miln...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggionews:6918613f-24ef-4ef7...@z14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
You didn't answer Matti's question AG, but thank you for *sharing your
brain* and *professing*.
David
David Raleigh Arnold
LOL!
This is not really ambiguous, because effects or special sounds are always
specific to particular groups of instruments, so it is not really a
practical problem. Guitar music is pizzicato, so when you mark it
pizzicato it doesn't mean 'without bow' in guitar music. Nevertheless,
many people are bothered by that and would like to have a better term.
Richard Pick, was of Italian descent. "Pick" was originally short
for something else which M. 0. no doubt can recall. I don't know
how much Italian he could speak. He thought that "sordamente" would be
better for guitar, but "muting" can mean either made more quiet or
silenced altogether. Perhaps he was thinking "con sordino", but again
you are borrowing terms from another instrument. Etouffe' was used by
Carcassi to mean silenced altogether, and he gives clear instruction to
do it by replacing fingers on strings. IMO pizzicato is the best term
for the guitar effect. It is unambiguous for the very reason that some
have objected to it!
>
> Some composers of guitar music prefer the French etouffé, or the Spanish
> apagado.
Again, flamenco writers use "A" for an ultra staccato, laying the 4th
finger of the LH on all of the strings, silencing the chord altogether.
Fernando Sor instructs in his Method to produce etouffé not
> with covering strings with r.h., but with placing l.h. fingers upon the
> frets, and not close to them. It's an effective technique,
It's usually difficult and treacherous in its execution, but very nice as
in Torroba's Fandanguillo
though I
> can't see how applying it to some passages marked etouffé in Sor's music
> (see for instance a whole variation in his Fantasia op. 7).
I think he gave up on the idea and used it earlier and later to mean
staccato, more or less, like Giuliani and others.
Pujol makes
> subtle discriminations among various categories of etouffé, and gives
> detailed instructions about how producing them. When active as a
> guitarist, I used to produce etouffé with muting strings, very close to
> the bridge, with r.h. little finger used barrè-like, and plucking muted
> strings with p-i-m.
I think most players mute with the side of the hand on the strings and
on the bridge. Another nice effect is to play a note pizzicato and
quickly remove the RH. It produces a sound very close to the sound
of a harmonic, which can be especially useful on notes below mi below
middle do, where no harmonic is possible. Segovia recorded it in Turina's
"Garrotin".
>
> I believe it is a useful resource, and staccato is not at all the same
> thing.
Indeed. And I don't think that "pizz" is going to be replaced with
another term any time soon, or that replacing it would be a good idea.
What puzzles me is why it took such a long time to settle on pizzicato as
a name for the effect. Do you think that writers for guitar have tended
to use "pizz" more than staccato because there is more contrast
introduced by it?
Highest regards, daveA
--
Very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Intermediate guitar
solos, theory, banjo, harmonica. Free download of technical exercises
worth a lifetime of practice. Compare Segovia's scale set with DGT:
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html
Paul Magnussen
> What's the deal with wrist pizzicato, is it some sacred compositional
> method or a matter of tone color?
For a guitarist, all notes are pizzicato (plucked). The term you need
is étouffée (smothered).
Paul Magnussen
Matanya Ophee
>
> Richard Pick, was of Italian descent.
He was? that's interesting. He told me personally that he was of
Scottish descent, and that "Pick" was the surname of his adoptive
parents, not the name he was born with. But if you have other
information, I sure would like to know about it.
MO.
agil
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:MD0Hl.32699$Qh6....@newsfe14.iad...
Another nice effect is to play a note pizzicato and
> quickly remove the RH. It produces a sound very close to the sound
> of a harmonic, which can be especially useful on notes below mi below
> middle do, where no harmonic is possible. Segovia recorded it in Turina's
> "Garrotin".
The effect you describe (you are right, it's very special) has been employed
by the German composer Georg Kroll in his solo guitar piece "Estampida"
(Mainz, Ars Viva Verlag) and significantly notated with opened hairpins.
With such a notation, the author describes his perception of this effect as
a "crescendo" on a single note, otherwise obviously impossible on a guitar.
I fail to see, instead, how you can recognize it in Segovia's edition of
"Garrotin" (first of the two pieces of the "Hommage à Tarrega"). Segovia
wrote "sonorité voilée sans pizzicato", an instruction which refers to tone
color, yes, but with an ordinary attack, "without pizzicato". All the notes
of the scale have to be played (according to Segovia) with thumb, and also
with some l.h. slurs.
> Do you think that writers for guitar have tended
> to use "pizz" more than staccato because there is more contrast
> introduced by it?
Actually I do not know.
Best wishes.
ag
arys
Actually, he did, if you think about it.
-MK
David Raleigh Arnold
Thanks! I heard that back in my Papas days, but I have no inkling
from whom.
IAC, he wanted "sordamente" for that effect and he used it in
published music. Regards, daveA
David Raleigh Arnold
> "David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:MD0Hl.32699$Qh6....@newsfe14.iad...
> Another nice effect is to play a note pizzicato and
>> quickly remove the RH. It produces a sound very close to the sound of
>> a harmonic, which can be especially useful on notes below mi below
>> middle do, where no harmonic is possible. Segovia recorded it in
>> Turina's "Garrotin".
>
> The effect you describe (you are right, it's very special) has been
> employed by the German composer Georg Kroll in his solo guitar piece
> "Estampida" (Mainz, Ars Viva Verlag) and significantly notated with
> opened hairpins. With such a notation, the author describes his
> perception of this effect as a "crescendo" on a single note, otherwise
> obviously impossible on a guitar.
I have used that slightly differently in an arrangement, playing the note
before the beat and very quickly removing the RH on the beat. I have
described that as a note slurred to a note of the same pitch. It
is not really a crescendo in that case because it is sudden.
When imitating a harmonic it is necessary to remove the RH more slowly,
rolling off the string, soon enough for sustain but slowly enough
so that there is no suggestion of crescendo.
If you roll off the string a bit faster, you get Kroll's crescendo
effect. It really seems to be a crescendo.
The three effects are very similar, but nevertheless there is a
difference between them that is not really subtle at all.
> I fail to see, instead, how you can recognize it in Segovia's edition of
> "Garrotin"
It is *clearly* audible on his recording. I did not say it was in the
printed music, and if it were there I would not have found it so
remarkable. I described it here some years ago as an 'impossible'
harmonic.
(first of the two pieces of the "Hommage à Tarrega"). Segovia
> wrote "sonorité voilée sans pizzicato", an instruction which refers to
> tone color, yes, but with an ordinary attack, "without pizzicato". All
> the notes of the scale have to be played (according to Segovia) with
> thumb, and also with some l.h. slurs.
The example was a single note, not a scale passage. Perhaps an Eb?
It's been a long time. Regards, daveA
catpandaddy
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Or5Hl.78861$TD1....@newsfe18.iad...
>
> I have used that slightly differently in an arrangement, playing the note
> before the beat and very quickly removing the RH on the beat. I have
> described that as a note slurred to a note of the same pitch. It
> is not really a crescendo in that case because it is sudden.
>
> When imitating a harmonic it is necessary to remove the RH more slowly,
> rolling off the string, soon enough for sustain but slowly enough
> so that there is no suggestion of crescendo.
>
> If you roll off the string a bit faster, you get Kroll's crescendo
> effect. It really seems to be a crescendo.
Are there any video clips of these techniques on the web?
agil
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:Or5Hl.78861$TD1....@newsfe18.iad...
>
>> I fail to see, instead, how you can recognize it in Segovia's edition of
>> "Garrotin"
>
> It is *clearly* audible on his recording. I did not say it was in the
> printed music, and if it were there I would not have found it so
> remarkable. I described it here some years ago as an 'impossible'
> harmonic.
>
thumb, and also with some l.h. slurs.
>
> The example was a single note, not a scale passage. Perhaps an Eb?
> It's been a long time. Regards, daveA
David, I'm really interested to that effect, but in spite of my search I
cannot find a Segovia's recording of "Garrotin".
Could you kindly tell me in which of his either 78, or 33, or Cds, you
listened to it? Molte grazie!
ag
agil
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:Or5Hl.78861$TD1....@newsfe18.iad...
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 19:38:57 +0200, agil wrote:
>
>
>> I fail to see, instead, how you can recognize it in Segovia's edition of
>> "Garrotin"
>
> It is *clearly* audible on his recording. I did not say it was in the
> printed music, and if it were there I would not have found it so
> remarkable. I described it here some years ago as an 'impossible'
> harmonic.
David, I have consulted Daniel Sanz, a Spanish scholar who dedicated years
in the search of Segovia's recordings ans who has just finished to compile
an exhaustive database of all of them.
Here his answer (published in the Spanish forum "Guitarra Artelinkado" as
well as my question):
Estimado Angelo:En toda la discografía que durante estos años he recopilado
y consultado para elaborar esta base de datos,no me he encontrado en ningun
momento con ninguna grabación del "Garrotín "de Turina por parte del
Maestro Segovia,no habiendo tampoco recogido ninguna información que ni
siquiera lejanamente se refiriese a ese registro.
Reciba un afectuoso saludo
Esteemed Angelo, in all the discography which during these years I have
rescued and collected in view of elaborating this database, I never met any
recording of Turina's "Garrotin" by maestro Andrés Segovia, and I haven't
found any information which - not even from afar - could be referred to such
a recording.
....
The recording with the "impossibile harmonic" must be, then, another one.
Segovia recorded "Fandanguillo" and "Fantasia Sevillana": maybe one of
these?
ag
David Raleigh Arnold
Not even as "Homage to Tarrega"? I really thought he recorded it, but I
did hear him play it in concert. IAC, which note it is should be obvious
looking at the music. I don't know where my copy is. Apologies, daveA
Sorry to be so slow. Computer/server problem. Regards, daveA
David Raleigh Arnold
Chet Atkins used to do it a lot on the bass notes. It's not
restricted to classical guitar, or even nylon/gut strings, so
I would be very surprised if there's no example on youtube. daveA
catpandaddy
"David Raleigh Arnold" <d...@openguitar.com> wrote in message
news:H%gIl.49951$g%5.4...@newsfe23.iad...
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 17:56:55 -0500, catpandaddy wrote:
>
>> "David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> wrote in message
>> news:Or5Hl.78861$TD1....@newsfe18.iad...
>>>
>>> I have used that slightly differently in an arrangement, playing the
>>> note before the beat and very quickly removing the RH on the beat. I
>>> have described that as a note slurred to a note of the same pitch. It
>>> is not really a crescendo in that case because it is sudden.
>>>
>>> When imitating a harmonic it is necessary to remove the RH more slowly,
>>> rolling off the string, soon enough for sustain but slowly enough so
>>> that there is no suggestion of crescendo.
>>>
>>> If you roll off the string a bit faster, you get Kroll's crescendo
>>> effect. It really seems to be a crescendo.
>>
>> Are there any video clips of these techniques on the web?
>
> Chet Atkins used to do it a lot on the bass notes. It's not
> restricted to classical guitar, or even nylon/gut strings, so
> I would be very surprised if there's no example on youtube. daveA
I'm sure there are somewhere, but my search parameters have failed to find
me any useful walkthroughs.
David Raleigh Arnold
Put the side of your hand on the bridge, so that some meat covers
the end of the string, and play it. Forget hand/finger position.
I like to start Asturias with all notes pizzicato, and then at the
repeat of the first phrase release the 2nd string, and then at the
end of that release the rest. Use tmtm for the pizz parts and titm
after that, starting ppp and crescendo. The whole thing sounds more like
rain that way. Try it, you'll like it. Regards, daveA