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Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 1:54:30 AM8/31/04
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Prestige and fame, titles and position have nothing to do with genuine
happiness.

Who is truly great? The person who strives the hardest and lives the most
earnestly. The person who follows his chosen path in life with the utmost
dedication and commitment.

It's not a matter of your profession, how much money you have, how well
known you are, your personal appearance, or your social position.


Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 2:09:14 AM8/31/04
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Oh Wise Alain, Sir, perchance you can answer me this question: are those that
are truly great always living with genuine happiness? I think I agree with
both your first sentence, and the rest, I'm just not sure these two premises
always co-exist.

Scott, truly ungreat :-)

Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 2:31:32 AM8/31/04
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Me wise! Only when I post incognito quotations from books I am reading! {;o)
Anyway ... to reply to your question ... I would say ... I hope so!

I thought you would have jump into the Op. 6#6 thread. I still think of you
each time I play that passage in third in Giuliani's first Rossiniane! [it's
getting better!]

Alain

Remember, Art is a struggle!

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
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Matti Partonen

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Aug 31, 2004, 6:11:44 AM8/31/04
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"Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote in message
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As for happiness, yes. Absolutely.

If somebody prefers research and more words, here is one link:
http://63.135.115.158/article.asp?ID=866

As for greatness, I do not know.

A few times in my life I have felt to be in touch with greatness. Some of your
characterizations seem to fit; about striving hard I am not so sure. Somehow in
this context I am reminded of Alan Watts' expression "sailing skillfully instead
of rowing strenuously". But truly I do not know.

Matti P.


Carlos Barrientos

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Aug 31, 2004, 8:00:58 AM8/31/04
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Row, row, row

YOUR boat,

GENTLY,

DOWN the stream,

MERRILY, MERRILY, MERRILY,

Life is but a dream...

(tee hee hee)


Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (229)-438-1087

"Recommend virtue to your children; it alone, not money,
can make them happy. I speak from experience."
-- Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827), German composer

Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 8:40:08 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:31:32 GMT, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:

>Me wise! Only when I post incognito quotations from books I am reading! {;o)
>Anyway ... to reply to your question ... I would say ... I hope so!

Me too! But I do know some I consider having 'musical genius', and in some
cases the efforts and sacrifices they have made have been costly in a personal
sense.

In a very recent email, someone I respect very much wrote this: "I really love
and admire the fact that you have held on to what is most important in
yourself against all the attempts of life to take this from you. I guess some
would say that Life is the furnace that tempers steel: it makes that
achievement fully yours."

So maybe I am not great, this is not news to me, but still there is some
recognition that striving to be the best you can be, to follow your path, is
not always easy. We would like to dream, in a romantic sense, that if you have
chosen the "right" path then the Universe will clear all the brush for you and
it will be like a walk in the park. I think we must question this or else we
may be tempted to assume it is not our fate when we hit the serious obstacles,
and sometimes personal pain. For some the path may be easier but we all walk a
very different distance thru very different terrain.

I also believe personal experience is one difference between a player that
"gets it" emotionally when interpreting music, and one that doesn't.

Few things in life bring genuine happiness without corresponding pain. Even
ethics have a heavy price. Following ethics is the 'right' thing to do, but
often not the least painful path and sometimes very costly.


>
>I thought you would have jump into the Op. 6#6 thread. I still think of you
>each time I play that passage in third in Giuliani's first Rossiniane! [it's
>getting better!]

Oh no! I must say I forget, completely, what I might have said about the
Giuliani. If you say it was helpful then I feel flattered!

I was soooo tempted to enter the Sor Op.6 #6 thread. I downloaded the piece
right, after Angelo suggested hell (this, to one like me, is simply an
invitation to get burned!), from the Ribs site. I immediately took to it and
it was maybe fifteen minutes to get 'most' of it to speed, a few small
exceptions, but generally it felt easy. But this is likely not what you want
to hear :-) So many years of rock and jazz, this to me was really just another
exercise in double-stops. Angelo's advice was right here, the LH needs not
lift most of the time and the pressure of the LH fingers remains almost
perfectly constant. I don't understand why he suggested displacing the accent
to the effect of making the third beat of each measure become the first beat
in a musical sense, resulting in the thumb notes being played on beat 2 as it
were. I can play this no problem (you know jazz, learning to accent
anywhere...) but I haven't a clue why this would be more musically
appropriate. My knowledge of interpretation is so weak I rely often on
intuition as I trod along, slowly learning a little more about epochs, style,
form (!) and 'proper' interpretation. If you haven't sent Op.6 #6 to the Very
Hot Southern States and I can be of any assistance, please Alain, feel free to
ask.

Are you going to travel east for the GFA? I live not far away, I would hope to
visit you if you come.

Always a pleasure with you mon frère,
Scott

Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 9:06:40 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:thq8j01j5qrbarffo...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:31:32 GMT, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:

I don't understand why he suggested displacing the accent
> to the effect of making the third beat of each measure become the first
beat
> in a musical sense, resulting in the thumb notes being played on beat 2 as
it
> were.

I did not mean that, Scott. I meant to group the first four measures in just
one long measure and to play the resulting long measure as it were off the
beat (then, no accent for 12/8) with respect to the following long
measure...Sorry for the misunderstanding, surely my guilt. In Italian, I can
be clear.
Listening to great interpreters (conductors and pianists, mainly) you can
clearly perceive that they re-bar the works, either grouping measures or
dividing them into smaller measures, depending from the situation.

AG


Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 9:29:05 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:06:40 GMT, "Angelo Gilardino"
<angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote:

>
>"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:thq8j01j5qrbarffo...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:31:32 GMT, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> I don't understand why he suggested displacing the accent
>> to the effect of making the third beat of each measure become the first
>beat
>> in a musical sense, resulting in the thumb notes being played on beat 2 as
>it
>> were.
>
>I did not mean that, Scott.

Then I should in the least apologize, it was not my intention to misrepresent
you thru my poor understanding.

>I meant to group the first four measures in just
>one long measure and to play the resulting long measure as it were off the
>beat (then, no accent for 12/8) with respect to the following long
>measure...Sorry for the misunderstanding, surely my guilt. In Italian, I can
>be clear.

I think I understand this a little better now, but maybe not completely. This
is indeed a difficult medium for this type of discusion - you cannot simply
sing, perform, or dictate an example, surely the best demonstrations, ones
that touch the ears before the brain.

>Listening to great interpreters (conductors and pianists, mainly) you can
>clearly perceive that they re-bar the works, either grouping measures or
>dividing them into smaller measures, depending from the situation.

Perhaps this might also have relevance to the Carlevaro discussion on the
Chaconne? On a more relevant note, I will continue to listen for this just as
I continue to follow your advice concerning the study of form. If I fail to
understand your comments it is often my poor background in such matters and
for this I have no reasonable apology.

Thanks for trying Angelo,
Scott

William Jennings

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Aug 31, 2004, 9:25:10 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:thq8j01j5qrbarffo...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:31:32 GMT, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net>
wrote:
>
> to hear :-) So many years of rock and jazz, this to me was really just
another
> exercise in double-stops. Angelo's advice was right here, the LH needs
not
> lift most of the time and the pressure of the LH fingers remains
almost
> perfectly constant.

I didn't think too much of Abel Carlevaro as a composer but for
technical insight he was a wizard. If you think the fingers need not
lift most of the time and the pressure remains almost perfectly
constant, you deserve what you get.

It's not too difficult to figure out for yourself. Read: Able
Carlevaro's Guitar Masterclass Volume 1, Technique, Analysis and
Interpretation of: Fernando Sor 10 Studies. Chanterelle 711 Copyright
1993.

Che'


Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:04:05 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:npu8j0lio8fc3nk0b...@4ax.com...

Scott, do not feel intimidated and shake the bottle. You can drink all of it
contents, if you like, right now.
Measures are like stairs in a staircase, an ordered, logical division of the
space, which can be reasonably walked one stairs at a time.
But when you run a staircase with a special purpose and feel, you may group
three or four stairs in a jump, can't you?

The same with music, if doing this works for a result which you like more
than the ordinary one.

Rules are just tools, it is a pity not knowing how to use them, but even a
greater pity to use them only according to the instruction book.

AG


Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:08:58 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 08:25:10 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:

>
>"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
>news:thq8j01j5qrbarffo...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 06:31:32 GMT, "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net>
>wrote:
>>
>> to hear :-) So many years of rock and jazz, this to me was really just
>another
>> exercise in double-stops. Angelo's advice was right here, the LH needs
>not
>> lift most of the time and the pressure of the LH fingers remains
>almost
>> perfectly constant.
>
>I didn't think too much of Abel Carlevaro as a composer but for
>technical insight he was a wizard. If you think the fingers need not
>lift most of the time

When playing the two note chords the fingers need not make the general effort
they do to lift, it is not only physically unneccessary but also musically
less desirable to myself since lifting and releasing the pressure will relieve
the leggiero that can achieved.

>and the pressure remains almost perfectly
>constant, you deserve what you get.

What I get is a smooth consistant sound with an absolute minimum of LH effort,
an extremely legato effect. In this situation Angelo's advice was quite sound
regardless of what Carlevaro might suggest.

As this was Angelo's suggestion of technique, why on earth would you choose to
attempt to debate this with myself instead of Angelo (hmmmm..)? This makes no
sense: Angelo is here in this forum, you go tell this to him and suggest he
should instead defer such matters to Carlevaro. I think this might be more
productive, don't you?

>
>It's not too difficult to figure out for yourself. Read: Able
>Carlevaro's Guitar Masterclass Volume 1, Technique, Analysis and
>Interpretation of: Fernando Sor 10 Studies. Chanterelle 711 Copyright
>1993.

If it were so easy to figure out myself why would I need to read Carlevaro's
book? Having something explained to you is not "figuring it out for oneself"
now, is it?

I have been an advocate of Carlevaro since reading his technique book as well
as the Villa Lobos Masterclass series. When I have it, I will read it. Till
then you can either present a better explanation or suck it up, your choice.

Regards,
Scott

William Jennings

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:10:20 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:2p09j0t8rdann8t65...@4ax.com...

Angelo does not play the guitar!

This makes no
> sense: Angelo is here in this forum, you go tell this to him and
suggest he
> should instead defer such matters to Carlevaro.

I'm sure he already knows this.

I think this might be more
> productive, don't you?
>
> >
> >It's not too difficult to figure out for yourself. Read: Able
> >Carlevaro's Guitar Masterclass Volume 1, Technique, Analysis and
> >Interpretation of: Fernando Sor 10 Studies. Chanterelle 711
Copyright
> >1993.
>
> If it were so easy to figure out myself why would I need to read
Carlevaro's
> book? Having something explained to you is not "figuring it out for
oneself"
> now, is it?
>
> I have been an advocate of Carlevaro since reading his technique book
as well
> as the Villa Lobos Masterclass series

http://www.internet.com.uy/aescande/Obituary.htm

Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:37:05 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:10:20 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:

The fact he no longer plays guitar is of no relevance to the fact that it was
he who suggested the approach.

Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:49:50 AM8/31/04
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"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:kaidnbJUdrf...@texas.net...

>
> "Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
> news:2p09j0t8rdann8t65...@4ax.com...
> > As this was Angelo's suggestion of technique, why on earth would you
> choose to
> > attempt to debate this with myself instead of Angelo (hmmmm..)?
>
> Angelo does not play the guitar!

You are right, I do not play anymore (since 1981), and I have little or no
title to give tips about technique. I told that to Alain because he seemed
especially worried about that Sor study and I thought I might have been
helpful to a fellow.
Actually, since 1981 to March of this year I was active as a professor in a
conservatory and - even without giving concerts - I followed learning a lot
about guitar, due mainly to the excellence of students who have cooperated
with me. But, I confirm, you are right, I am no technician at all - my work
with players has developped in the area of interpretation. I have taught
people who could play much better than I did even when I was a concert
player. Namely, this technique of shifting with a uniform pressure when
playing double notes was offered to my attention, quite spontaneouly, as it
had been the most natural feature in the world, by a student who never
suspected those passages could have been played otherwise.


>
> This makes no
> > sense: Angelo is here in this forum, you go tell this to him and
> suggest he
> > should instead defer such matters to Carlevaro.
>
> I'm sure he already knows this.

Surely. Abel Carlevaro and me, we were good friends in spite of the
difference of age. I have all of his publications and he had all mine - an
exchange based upon mutual esteem and friendship. I have gone as deeply as I
could in understanding his approach to playing - something broader than a
technique in the traditional sense of the word. A great man.

AG


Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 10:52:23 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:10:20 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:


>> This makes no sense: Angelo is here in this forum, you go tell
>>this to him and suggest he should instead defer such matters to
>>Carlevaro.
>
>I'm sure he already knows this.

No, that makes no sense and you know better. If this were the case then Angelo
would have provided an answer that suggested Alain seek out Carlevaro's advice
instead of suggesting something else. This is obvious with some common sense.

S.

Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 11:01:01 AM8/31/04
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:49:50 +0200, "Angelo Gilardino"
<angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote:

>
>"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:kaidnbJUdrf...@texas.net...
>>
>> "Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
>> news:2p09j0t8rdann8t65...@4ax.com...
>> > As this was Angelo's suggestion of technique, why on earth would you
>> choose to
>> > attempt to debate this with myself instead of Angelo (hmmmm..)?
>>
>> Angelo does not play the guitar!
>
>You are right, I do not play anymore (since 1981), and I have little or no
>title to give tips about technique. I told that to Alain because he seemed
>especially worried about that Sor study and I thought I might have been
>helpful to a fellow.
>Actually, since 1981 to March of this year I was active as a professor in a
>conservatory and - even without giving concerts - I followed learning a lot
>about guitar, due mainly to the excellence of students who have cooperated
>with me. But, I confirm, you are right, I am no technician at all - my work
>with players has developped in the area of interpretation. I have taught
>people who could play much better than I did even when I was a concert
>player. Namely, this technique of shifting with a uniform pressure when
>playing double notes was offered to my attention, quite spontaneouly, as it
>had been the most natural feature in the world, by a student who never
>suspected those passages could have been played otherwise.

William is suggesting that this intuitive approach is not only incorrect but
has negative reults:


> If you think the fingers need not

>lift most of the time and the pressure remains almost perfectly


>constant, you deserve what you get.

He is suggesting the results are undesirable, that what your student taught
you and which you shared will in fact have negative results. Are you
suggesting you agree with this comment?

Scott

William Jennings

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Aug 31, 2004, 11:04:49 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:h049j0hbin5urr7cs...@4ax.com...

It makes no difference to me if you figure it out or not. It is simply
information you can choose to procees or not. By maintaining pressure in
shifts how do you account for the glissandos?


William Jennings

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Aug 31, 2004, 11:19:17 AM8/31/04
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message
news:2pjhgfF...@uni-berlin.de...

>
> "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:kaidnbJUdrf...@texas.net...
> >

> Surely. Abel Carlevaro and me, we were good friends in spite of the


> difference of age. I have all of his publications and he had all
mine -

Then you know exactly what I make reference to. It appears some of his
concepts have been misunderstood by teachers who may have attended a
masterclass or two and thought they understood Mr. Carlevaro's work. I
first attended one of his master classes at the "Y" YMCA in NYC. This
is the reason I left the U.S.A and went to South America to continue my
studies.

Che'

Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 11:39:43 AM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:0e49j0lkmj2kqc0bs...@4ax.com...

I agree with William's observation that I do not play guitar (anymore)
because it is true.
As for the kind of technique I suggested, it is practiced by a lot of
guitarists (and of course, since much before, violinists, cellists, etc.)
and my suggestion to Alain had no air of discovery (at least, I hope). This
does not mean that it works for - and should be appreciated by - every
guitarist. I have evidence that William David knows very well the art. If he
bothers to disagree with what I say about a specifical point of a technique,
I do not think there must be something wrong in the air. We are going along
our own, respective trails. The same you do.

AG


William Jennings

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Aug 31, 2004, 12:21:49 PM8/31/04
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message
news:2pjkdvF...@uni-berlin.de...

I avoided a public disagreement with you. I was providing Alain with
the best information to my knowledge to dominate the piece. I realized
the concept of allowing the hand to pick the fingers up as opposed to
individual finger movements, when possible, in what appears to be a 4
step process seems fussy. This aspect of technique is basic to
Carlevaro's teachings and becomes automatic and we never think about it.
I sent Alain the exact fingerings of Mr. Carlevaro which are documented
in my old Belwin score. I will not do that again.

It does not require genius to reason that the left hand fingers must
change configurations going from here to there. If one maintains
pressure and contact with the strings when moving, exactly where do the
fingers make the new configurations. The point, the new configurations
are formed in the air as we move from point to point. In addition, I
have a very specfic hand written note that A. Barrios wrote concerning
this exact thing. Barrios notes that in his "Danza Paraguaya", the left
hand must align itself and form the required configuations in the air in
order to aquire the velocitiy to play it. Once you look at the danza
with this in mind it immediately makes sense. It's up to the
student/guiatrist to decipher for him/herself. I am not attached to
technique. If anyone can provide better information I can assure you I
will look closely. We are all inclined to see what we wish to see
according to our preconceptions, prejudices, and what we have been
taught. I try to filter these misleading factors out of my thinking as
far as possible.

This was my interest in the Wallace Stevens poem "The Man With The Blue
Guitar"

To see things as they are, and not as we would prefer them to be.

I make no claims of being the musician/composer that Angelo is.

Che'

Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 1:08:35 PM8/31/04
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"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:thq8j01j5qrbarffo...@4ax.com...

Well ... I think it is not for us to decide if we are great or not! I am
usually very wary of people who project that "I am great" image.
but also some people goes into the other direction and constantly belittle
their efforts. I think that the guidance I post at the beginning of that
thread is pointing toward the direction of immersing yourself into action.
Not thinking about the envelop but being the essence itself without thinking
of its shape, colour, direction etc etc.
Reality is harsh! But we all end up in the same place at the very end. The
undescriptible, unfathomable, state of death ... of course this should be a
constant reminder that we ought to do our best!

When I revisited that study a couple of months ago I wanted to find a
different pathway for the first section. ( As I mentioned the Segovia
solution did not work for me in that section). And I did find more than one
solution! And of course that confuses me ... The discussion about it has
revived my interest and I am getting closer to make a definitive choice for
the passing of the thirds. ( My kids always laugh at me because I pronounce
"turd"). Of course you are right. If we were facing each other, guitar in
hand, it would be easier to discuss and exchange and understand ... eh! eh!
eh! what are you doing here? Show me that! Wow that's great!
I have been inspired by the summer olympic winner of the Marathon, Stephano
Baldini (and all the marathonian for that matter!), not to give up.

> Are you going to travel east for the GFA? I live not far away, I would
hope to
> visit you if you come.

Yes! Reservation and registration are made. Finally! {;o).
I am lucky to have relatives still living in Montréal so I can keep the
spending to a minimum ...
Looking forward to meet you!

I also have received through my registration to the GFA 2004 a one year
subscription to the soundboard magazine. It's very good! A great article an
analysis of André Jolivet's suite written for Segovia (heunfortunately never
got around to perform it) and the publication in the magazine of one of the
mvt. in small print, the Passacaille. Superb music.

Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 1:08:35 PM8/31/04
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"Matti Partonen" <matti.p...@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:A9YYc.24105$g4.4...@news2.nokia.com...
Eh! Matti!

Excellent article. Thanks!
Do I really need more music in my filling cabinet?
Man! were are we going?
D'oû venons nous? Que sommes nous? Oû allons nous? (Title of Gaugin's last
painting).
As for greatness ... Well I think the same. Truly I do not know. It seems
that the word that can summon that elusive concept is ... relativity.

{;o)

Alain


Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 1:22:21 PM8/31/04
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"Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ng2Zc.80189$X12.58080@edtnps84...


>
> I also have received through my registration to the GFA 2004 a one year
> subscription to the soundboard magazine. It's very good! A great article
an
> analysis of André Jolivet's suite written for Segovia (heunfortunately
never
> got around to perform it) and the publication in the magazine of one of
the
> mvt. in small print, the Passacaille. Superb music.

André Jolivet was very disappointed with Segovia's lack of interest in his
"Hommage à Robert de Visée".
The letters he wrote to Segovia are hard to read, and even more to believe.

AG


Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 2:22:00 PM8/31/04
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message
news:ht2Zc.225891$5D1.10...@news4.tin.it...

Well ... I do not know the details of that story.
The disappointment of the composer is reported in that article though. Now
that you mentioned the existence of letters ... I can imagine ...

I am an unconditional admire of Andres Segovia ... We can always be grateful
that he at least asked composers to write for the guitar in the 20 century
... even if he never play/performed those compositions. A musician, no
matter how great he is can only play that much pieces in his life time! The
fact that he did not play it do not diminished the greatness of that
passacaille. [This is the only mvt I know, thanks to my knew publication and
I am looking forward to see the other mvts!].

Alain

Angelo Gilardino

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Aug 31, 2004, 2:34:07 PM8/31/04
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"Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:cl3Zc.80211$X12.19664@edtnps84...

> >
>
> Well ... I do not know the details of that story.
> The disappointment of the composer is reported in that article though.
Now
> that you mentioned the existence of letters ... I can imagine ...
>
> I am an unconditional admire of Andres Segovia ... We can always be
grateful
> that he at least asked composers to write for the guitar in the 20 century
> ... even if he never play/performed those compositions. A musician, no
> matter how great he is can only play that much pieces in his life time!
The
> fact that he did not play it do not diminished the greatness of that
> passacaille. [This is the only mvt I know, thanks to my knew publication
and
> I am looking forward to see the other mvts!].
>
> Alain

Jolivet wrote magnificent works, several of which - if composed for guitar -
could have suited Segovia's tastes and skills much better than the "Homage à
de Visée". It's really amazing to see how a highly sophisticated musician
like Jolivet could expect from Segovia a performance of a piece which has
nothing, absolutely nothing, in common with the repertoire of the guitarist.

AG


Sam Culotta

unread,
Aug 31, 2004, 3:11:39 PM8/31/04
to

"Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:ng2Zc.80190$X12.43943@edtnps84...
Do not despair, Alain... nobody knows. Especially, nobody knows what
happiness means to anyone else,
It's just one of those things we continue to work at, and that working at is
what matters.. maybe.

Sam


> {;o)
>
> Alain
>
>


Alain Reiher

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Aug 31, 2004, 4:12:26 PM8/31/04
to

"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message
news:zw3Zc.176972$OR2.8...@news3.tin.it...

Exactly! This is why I think, In all humility (I am not a scholar of any
kind) that Segovia had a bigger vision for the instrument than his own
taste. The situation he had created for himself and the Guitar may not be
seen anymore. I mean the sense of mission and the high exposure and
recognition he had gain throughout the world. And the very positive impact
he had for the future of this instrument. Unfortunately, the tendency now is
to break away from "his" tradition and to denigrate, or point at his
weaknesses.
So many extraordinary talented guitarists that have emerged and continue to
emerge from the conservatory and University around the world
that one could think that playing classical guitar is more popular than the
popularity gained by the cellular phone!
Sunday at the Vancouver museum, was the last day of an exhibition of some of
the best work of our west coast artists. One work was a collage, in a giant
frame, thousand of small snap shots of guitarists of all type! (kids,
adults, electric, nude! young, old) Fascinating work indeed!
{:o)

Alain


richard c. spross

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Aug 31, 2004, 8:10:36 PM8/31/04
to

Carlos Barrientos wrote:

Don't laugh Carlos,

It is good advice.
If only mankind bothered to
follow it this existence would
be filled with happiness..
There is much hidden wisdom
in the little children's song.
Richard Spross

richard c. spross

unread,
Aug 31, 2004, 8:20:19 PM8/31/04
to

William Jennings wrote:

Is a small almost unnoticeable glissando acceptable?
imho it is way of achieving a smoother connection between whatever.

Of course it may not work and may not be adviseble all the time.
We may want that detached sound for what ever reason.

But it seems to me that over the many past years there was a trend
for everything to be connected, smooth, warm. lush.

Then there followed a trend in which everything was to be articulated,
clear, and without any apparent connection, except the release of a tone.
Much like the sound of a harpsichord playing.

Now it may be prudent to realize that these generalities are a bit foolish
and it might serve us bettter to broaden our approach so that our
imagination
can be served with ideas which evolve from the score.

Richard Spross

Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 9:39:32 PM8/31/04
to
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:39:43 +0200, "Angelo Gilardino"
<angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote:

Yes, I agree. I also agree William has some very sound and well-earned advice
- he knows the art. While it is quite reasonable to have a differing opinion I
am not willing to concede to William's point that there is only one way the
Sor etude should be executed; I do not believe having such an opinion makes it
correct so I see no honesty or gain in suggesting that I agree Carlevaro's
options are the only valid ones.

Often we discuss the important connection between the technique and the music
itself. I have reason to believe that if the performance by the student who
demonstrated his approach to you had been unmusical, or contradicted a
reasonable interpretation to you, that you would not have suggested it to
Alain. If William chooses to discount the possibilty that your suggestion is a
reasonable one I an under no obligation to accept this as the truth. As you
say, our own respective trails.

Scott

Scott Daughtrey

unread,
Aug 31, 2004, 9:47:23 PM8/31/04
to
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:04:05 GMT, "Angelo Gilardino"
<angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote:

>
>"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>news:npu8j0lio8fc3nk0b...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 13:06:40 GMT, "Angelo Gilardino"
>> <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps this might also have relevance to the Carlevaro discussion on the
>> Chaconne? On a more relevant note, I will continue to listen for this just
>as
>> I continue to follow your advice concerning the study of form. If I fail
>to
>> understand your comments it is often my poor background in such matters
>and
>> for this I have no reasonable apology.
>
>Scott, do not feel intimidated and shake the bottle. You can drink all of it
>contents, if you like, right now.
>Measures are like stairs in a staircase, an ordered, logical division of the
>space, which can be reasonably walked one stairs at a time.
>But when you run a staircase with a special purpose and feel, you may group
>three or four stairs in a jump, can't you?
>
>The same with music, if doing this works for a result which you like more
>than the ordinary one.
>
>Rules are just tools, it is a pity not knowing how to use them, but even a
>greater pity to use them only according to the instruction book.

Points well taken, thank you again Angelo.

Scott

Scott Daughtrey

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Aug 31, 2004, 9:58:06 PM8/31/04
to
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:21:49 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:


>I avoided a public disagreement with you.

By instead deferring it to me? How sweet of you.

Scott

William Jennings

unread,
Aug 31, 2004, 10:25:51 PM8/31/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:kvaaj0tgpf74b1gq3...@4ax.com...

You have the two qualities most important to be my victim, arrogance and
inexperience. You are the musical equivalent of a mayonnaise sandwich.
Suck it up.

Che'


William Jennings

unread,
Aug 31, 2004, 10:32:20 PM8/31/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:n27aj014iplf685ek...@4ax.com...

> Yes, I agree. I also agree William has some very sound and well-earned
advice
> - he knows the art. While it is quite reasonable to have a differing
opinion I
> am not willing to concede to William's point that there is only one
way the
> Sor etude should be executed;

This is a non-event, I did not say that.... period!

I do not believe having such an opinion makes it
> correct so I see no honesty or gain in suggesting that I agree
Carlevaro's
> options are the only valid ones.

Another non-event!

>
I have reason to believe that if the performance by the student who
> demonstrated his approach to you had been unmusical, or contradicted a
> reasonable interpretation to you, that you would not have suggested it
to
> Alain.

I have reason to believe you're off your meds.


If William chooses to discount the possibilty that your suggestion is a
> reasonable one I an under no obligation to accept this as the truth.

Another non-event!

> As you say, our own respective trails.<

Warning "Shepole Crossing"

Che'


Carlos Barrientos

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 1:59:56 AM9/1/04
to

I laugh to keep from crying, Richard, what's that line from Auntie
Mame? Yes, The world is a banquet and half the people are starving to
death!

Bunches miss it! Glad you caught it!

Angelo Gilardino

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 2:04:49 AM9/1/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:n27aj014iplf685ek...@4ax.com...


> Often we discuss the important connection between the technique and the
music
> itself.

Yes, we should. Music is built up with a technique. Writing a piece is like
building up a house.
Firstly, it should stand up, and then it should be nice to see and to live
in. At the beginning, one learns a series of techniques which lead to build
up a house.
A good way of learning is copying. Copying literally, note by note, helps to
understand. Then, copying in a broader sense of the word: writing a Sonata
in the style of Scarlatti, with running along the same paths he used in his
Sonatas, or a Schubert Lied...These are very good times. They do not produce
anything valuable, but they are full of hopes. And then, finally, one begins
to write music of his own. Technique here is altogether a different thing.
You can see that, in order to have the music coming really from inside, you
have to forget the techniques you learnt with copying. There are "mistakes"
which you need in order to be yourself. They become your rules and, if you
have really a strong word to tell, the canons that will be copied by
generations of students. There are few rules in music which have not been
mistakes in the past.

AG

John Wasak

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Sep 1, 2004, 3:15:21 AM9/1/04
to
Angelo Gilardino <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message
news:2pl742F...@uni-berlin.de...


In all the years I have been in this NG (and that other mail list) Angelo's
is that voice in the desert.

Listen to it.


jw

Now Playing:
"Different Trains" by Steve Reich

(has there ever been a more 'filmic'/'cinematic' piece of music?..)


John Wasak

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Sep 1, 2004, 3:22:20 AM9/1/04
to
William Jennings <jou...@texas.net> wrote

>You are the musical equivalent of a mayonnaise sandwich.
>

Very original. At least in its respects to this NG.

Well done.


jw


William Jennings

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Sep 1, 2004, 5:25:10 AM9/1/04
to

"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:g7paj0h595ii40gtm...@4ax.com...

> >> Row, row, row
> >>
> >> YOUR boat,
> >>
> >> GENTLY,
> >>
> >> DOWN the stream,
> >>
> >> MERRILY, MERRILY, MERRILY,
> >>
> >> Life is but a dream...
> >>
> >> (tee hee hee)
> >
>> I laugh to keep from crying, Richard, what's that line from Auntie
> Mame? Yes, The world is a banquet and half the people are starving to
> death!
>

Dear Carlos, real men do not say "tee hee hee" or say merrily. It's
the same old story, "Row -vs- Wade" get out of that damned boat, quite
that sissy crying and fish like a man.

Che'


Carlos Barrientos

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Sep 1, 2004, 5:47:36 AM9/1/04
to

Doc<

Methinks thou doth protest too much... Come out, come out wherever you
are! (Childhood call to come out . . . of your hiding place!)

William Jennings

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 5:58:23 AM9/1/04
to

"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:rj6bj0tuhe3t8ja1e...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 04:25:10 -0500, "William Jennings"
> <jou...@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >Dear Carlos, real men do not say "tee hee hee" or say merrily. It's
> >the same old story, "Row -vs- Wade" get out of that damned boat, quit
> >that sissy crying, and fish like a man.

> >
> >Che'
> >
> Doc<
>
> Methinks thou doth protest too much... Come out, come out wherever you
> are! (Childhood call to come out . . . of your hiding place!)
> Carlos Barrientos

That's what you get for thinking. Find me.

Che'

Scott Daughtrey

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 10:01:15 AM9/1/04
to
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:25:51 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:


>You have the two qualities most important to be my victim, arrogance and
>inexperience.

Well, look at this - one doesn't have to go scuba diving to see a Blowfish.

Scott

Scott Daughtrey

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Sep 1, 2004, 10:18:33 AM9/1/04
to

Another Fug-u. I didn't realize Puffers swim in pairs.

William Jennings

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 10:33:43 AM9/1/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:p0lbj0t80knrc8m24...@4ax.com...

I tried seeing it your way - just doesn't work for me.

Che'


Alain Reiher

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Sep 1, 2004, 12:48:05 PM9/1/04
to

"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dGeZc.16$N4...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

A nice "pensée" John! It matches the original intent of this OT like a
glove. As for the OB (Opinion Bullying ...) it will follow any thread, at
any chosen time and probably for ever ? It seems to be acting as rmcg
shadow. The shadow of our non-community. I-n-é-v-i-t-a-b-l-e.
But as you point out by writing so gently "listen to it", this reply by
Amgelo is the most important thing I have read here concerning the Art of
music since a long time. Suddenly I find myself thinking about strengthening
my foundation.
I am not very good at asking questions.

Alain

Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 11:26:13 AM9/1/04
to
a very true and profound observation

"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message

news:AJ_Yc.223846

> Listening to great interpreters (conductors and pianists, mainly) you can
> clearly perceive that they re-bar the works, either grouping measures or
> dividing them into smaller measures, depending from the situation.
>

Reza Ganjavi (www.rezamusic.com)

unread,
Sep 1, 2004, 11:19:53 AM9/1/04
to
This is so interesting. Angelo wrote Canzoni Dimenticate (variants on the
theme of Romance as recorded on my first CD) for amusement, almost every
performer that I gave the notes to, and these were top notch performers
playing with major symph orchestras (some as soloists) they said, this note
is wrong, it needs to be this note. I said, no, please, stick to what Angelo
wrote note by note with precision. Guess what, after a while, they started
appreciating the piece and the very "mistakes" suddenly sounded fabulous.

"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@aliceposta.it> wrote in message

news:2pl742F...@uni-berlin.de...

John Wasak

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Sep 1, 2004, 4:29:27 PM9/1/04
to
Scott Daughtrey <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:vfmbj010nubl6pvnr...@4ax.com...


Much less original. Keep trying.


John Wasak

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Sep 1, 2004, 4:36:11 PM9/1/04
to
Alain Reiher <rei...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:93nZc.84782$X12.23459@edtnps84...

Yes, but I don't mean only this reply.

>Suddenly I find myself thinking about strengthening
> my foundation.
> I am not very good at asking questions.
>
> Alain
>

I'm not too bad at asking questions, it's coming up with answers that can
trip me up. ha-ha! ;-)


jw

Scott Daughtrey

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Sep 7, 2004, 9:37:09 PM9/7/04
to
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:33:43 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:

>
>"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
>news:p0lbj0t80knrc8m24...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:25:51 -0500, "William Jennings"
><jou...@texas.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >You have the two qualities most important to be my victim, arrogance
>and
>> >inexperience.
>>
>> Well, look at this - one doesn't have to go scuba diving to see a
>Blowfish.
>>
>> Scott
>
>I tried seeing it your way - just doesn't work for me.
>
>Che'

My Way?

(No, that's not an invitation to break into song, but feel free if so
inclined).

Scott

William Jennings

unread,
Sep 7, 2004, 9:26:55 PM9/7/04
to

Tell you what son, I'll let you have the last word if I can have the
best lines!

Does that work for you?

Che'

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message

news:mgosj0t3kv1j2bsfa...@4ax.com...

Scott Daughtrey

unread,
Sep 7, 2004, 10:00:09 PM9/7/04
to
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:26:55 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:

>
>Tell you what son,

Flattery will get you everywhere! I think I'll cancel that wrinkle-cream I
have on order.

>I'll let you have the last word if I can have the
>best lines!
>
>Does that work for you?
>
>Che'


No. You can have both, I'm no glory hound.

Scott

P.S. This message was written in full compliance of the "William Gets The Last
Word" Bill with the expressed knowledge a response from William is required to
complete the intellectual transaction.

William Jennings

unread,
Sep 7, 2004, 11:12:13 PM9/7/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:3ipsj0hkqfallp8up...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:26:55 -0500, "William Jennings"
<jou...@texas.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Tell you what son,
>
> Flattery will get you everywhere! I think I'll cancel that
wrinkle-cream I
> have on order.

Cowboys around here use Preparation-H. In Canada you can get it with
Bio-Dyne®.


>
> >I'll let you have the last word if I can have the
> >best lines!
> >
> >Does that work for you?
> >
> >Che'
>
>
> No. You can have both, I'm no glory hound.

I never go into anything with the idea of losing. Exactly where is the
glory you're talking about?


>
> Scott
>
> P.S. This message was written in full compliance of the "William Gets

The Best
> Lines" Bill with the expressed knowledge a response from William is
pleased to
> complete the intellectual transaction.

Scott Daughtrey

unread,
Sep 8, 2004, 1:40:11 AM9/8/04
to
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:12:13 -0500, "William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net>
wrote:

>
>"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
>news:3ipsj0hkqfallp8up...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:26:55 -0500, "William Jennings"
><jou...@texas.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Tell you what son,
>>
>> Flattery will get you everywhere! I think I'll cancel that
>wrinkle-cream I
>> have on order.
>
>Cowboys around here use Preparation-H. In Canada you can get it with
>Bio-Dyne®.
>
>
>>
>> >I'll let you have the last word if I can have the
>> >best lines!
>> >
>> >Does that work for you?
>> >
>> >Che'
>>
>>
>> No. You can have both, I'm no glory hound.
>
>I never go into anything with the idea of losing.

I didn't realize all discussions had winners and losers. So do I win or lose,
having learned something?

> Exactly where is the
>glory you're talking about?

Your wit is surely your crowning glory. Now let's have one of those glorious
best lines so we can put this thread to rest.

Scott

William Jennings

unread,
Sep 8, 2004, 10:02:05 AM9/8/04
to

"Scott Daughtrey" <p...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:pi5tj0tf8csfji05t...@4ax.com...

> >I never go into anything with the idea of losing.
>
> I didn't realize all discussions had winners and losers. So do I win
or lose,
> having learned something?

This was never a discussion. It was a controled pissing match.


>
> > Exactly where is the
> >glory you're talking about?
>
> Your wit is surely your crowning glory. Now let's have one of those
glorious
> best lines so we can put this thread to rest.
>
> Scott
>

I've been thinking a lot about dying lately. Here is my most recent
poems to a girlfriend:

Now the roses are wilting',
The violets feel dread.
The ice chest is empty,
Your fisherman's ....dead!

Roses are red,
Green is the grass,
Three words on his tombstone:
Kiss my .___ !

The Sun is Yellow,
The Sky is Blue,
Che's taking a dirt nap,
And waitting on you.

Roses were Red,
And violets were Blue,
But ____ still Blonde,
Please flush the toilet
after you're through!

Che'


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