Best Living Player? - Survey
Michael Stevens
Mike Stevens
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Michael Stevens wrote:
> In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
>
> Mike Stevens
OK, the smart-ass answers start here. Best at what?
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
John Wasak
news:IQuqb.204$6c3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
>
> Mike Stevens
>
Historically, THIS group never comes to a consensus of opinion.
jw
John Wasak
news:3FAA7B9D...@dentaltwins.com...
>
> Michael Stevens wrote:
>
> > In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical
guitarist?
> >
> > Mike Stevens
>
> OK, the smart-ass answers start here. Best at what?
>
> Steve
>
Best at being the "Best".
i.e, "Queen of All Guitardom", "Crown Prince of PIMA", "Royal Family of
Recuerdos", "King of Koyunbaba & All That Rot", "Duke of The Same Old Same
Old", "Princess of Pallid Musical Pabulum", "Count of the High Ticket
Price", "Lord of The Lengthy Legacy", etc., etc....
jw
Robert Crim
wrote:
Just use the list of the greatest of all time and eliminate the dead
ones. Simple.
1 Jimi Hendrix
2 Duane Allman of the Allman Brothers Band
3 B.B. King
4 Eric Clapton
5 Robert Johnson
6 Chuck Berry
7 Stevie Ray Vaughan
8 Ry Cooder
9 Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin
10 Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones
11Kirk Hammett of Metallica
12 Kurt Cobain of Nirvana
13 Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead
14 Jeff Beck
15 Carlos Santana
16 Johnny Ramone of the Ramones
17 Jack White of the White Stripes
18 John Frusciante of the Red Hot Chili Peppers
19 Richard Thompson
20 James Burton
21 George Harrison
22 Mike Bloomfield
23 Warren Haynes
24 The Edge of U2
25 Freddy King
26 Tom Morello of Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave
27 Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits
28 Stephen Stills
29 Ron Asheton of the Stooges
30 Buddy Guy
31 Dick Dale
32 John Cipollina of Quicksilver Messenger Service
33 & 34 Lee Ranaldo, Thurston Moore of Sonic Youth
35 John Fahey
36 Steve Cropper of Booker T. and the MG's
37 Bo Diddley
38 Peter Green of Fleetwood Mac
39 Brian May of Queen
40 John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival
41 Clarence White of the Byrds
42 Robert Fripp of King Crimson
43 Eddie Hazel of Funkadelic
44 Scotty Moore
45 Frank Zappa
46 Les Paul
47 T-Bone Walker
48 Joe Perry of Aerosmith
49 John McLaughlin
50 Pete Townshend
51 Paul Kossoff of Free
52 Lou Reed
53 Mickey Baker
54 Jorma Kaukonen of Jefferson Airplane
55 Ritchie Blackmore of Deep Purple
56 Tom Verlaine of Television
57 Roy Buchanan
58 Dickey Betts
59 & 60 Jonny Greenwood, Ed O'Brien of Radiohead
61 Ike Turner
62 Zoot Horn Rollo of the Magic Band
63 Danny Gatton
64 Mick Ronson
65 Hubert Sumlin
66 Vernon Reid of Living Colour
67 Link Wray
68 Jerry Miller of Moby Grape
69 Steve Howe of Yes
70 Eddie Van Halen
71 Lightnin' Hopkins
72 Joni Mitchell
73 Trey Anastasio of Phish
74 Johnny Winter
75 Adam Jones of Tool
76 Ali Farka Toure
77 Henry Vestine of Canned Heat
78 Robbie Robertson of the Band
79 Cliff Gallup of the Blue Caps (1997)
80 Robert Quine of the Voidoids
81 Derek Trucks
82 David Gilmour of Pink Floyd
83 Neil Young
84 Eddie Cochran
85 Randy Rhoads
86 Tony Iommi of Black Sabbath
87 Joan Jett
88 Dave Davies of the Kinks
89 D. Boon of the Minutemen
90 Glen Buxton of Alice Cooper
91 Robby Krieger of the Doors
92 & 93 Fred "Sonic" Smith, Wayne Kramer of the MC5
94 Bert Jansch
95 Kevin Shields of My Bloody Valentine
96 Angus Young of AC/DC
97 Robert Randolph
98 Leigh Stephens of Blue Cheer
99 Greg Ginn of Black Flag
100 Kim Thayil of Soundgarden
Robert
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
John Wasak wrote:
>
> Best at being the "Best".
>
> i.e, "Queen of All Guitardom", "Crown Prince of PIMA", "Royal Family of
> Recuerdos", "King of Koyunbaba & All That Rot", "Duke of The Same Old Same
> Old", "Princess of Pallid Musical Pabulum", "Count of the High Ticket
> Price", "Lord of The Lengthy Legacy", etc., etc....
This reminds me of a year-end survey that Esquire magazine did (perhaps
they still do). They had a head-to-head smack-down elimination contest for
person of the year. This was 5 or so years ago, and the winner was Michael
Flatley, the then "Lord of the Dance" who was described as "wet-chested
twinkletoes bent on world domination".
Steve
>
>
> jw
>
> > Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
> > Brooklyn, NY
> > 718-258-5001
> > http://www.dentaltwins.com
> >
> >
--
Richard Spross
Amen.
Richard Spross
Jacques
Jacques Mercier
That should be an easy concesus?
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kRvqb.12686$Oo4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Michael Stevens
"Robert Crim" <frit...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0t2lqvk2dmblnuopa...@4ax.com...
William D Clinger
> > Historically, THIS group never comes to a consensus of opinion.
>
Our consensus is that we never come to a consensus.
Doh!
Will
Robert Corcoran
>
> Mike Stevens
John Williams
12th post, first answer.
Roman Turovsky
RT
______________
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
> From: robcor...@hotmail.com (Robert Corcoran)
Steve Perry
Michael Stevens <michaelhow...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
>
> Mike Stevens
I'd be more interested in knowing who the best dead classical guitarist
is -- how often does he practice? Once the flesh and nails are gone,
will a pure bone attack sound better? Is there a rattle when the radius
and ulna vibrate against the lower bout?
If he's only recently dead, is he still composing or simply ...
decomposing ... ?
Kind of reminds me of the old "Live Girls on Stage" poster. Certainly
not as novel as the alternative ...
--
Steve
Edward Bridge
"sw" <ste...@msnm.com> wrote in message
news:perlqvos7agn0c48a...@4ax.com...
>> >
>
> Come on guys this is an easy one...it's Neo.
>
I don't think so . .007 is the best living player . . :>) .
Sam Culotta
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kRvqb.12686$Oo4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
And I think you'll find full consensus on this one.
Sam
Tim Panting
TP
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> wrote in message
news:BBD131AF.1E40C%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net...
Tim Panting
TP
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> wrote in message
news:BBD131AF.1E40C%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net...
Tim Panting
hear her live, an emerging talent of immense ability.
TP
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> wrote in message
news:BBD131AF.1E40C%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net...
Tim Panting
A player with a really sweet tone.
Ahem
Tim
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> wrote in message
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Tim Panting
more than most classical guitar operators do.
Speedy West & Jimmy Bryant.
Oh, Pat Metheny.
Egberto Gismonti, Pierre Bensusan, John Williams, Bireli Lagrene....not all
'classical' but brilliant musicians.
The difference between a painting and a piece of music is that it's a lot
easier to walk away from a painting than it is to walk out of a
recital....you have to sit there and endure it, every plink-plonky moment,
with the ultra-serious-faced perpetrator giving something for the greater
good of mankind etc. A simplistic notion for sure, but a lot of what was
avant-garde in painting, sculpture etc. has become the 'musak' of the
artworld. Look at what happened to abstract expressionism. A lot of the
material covering the seats of trains or decorating the walls of a bank has
designs that appear to have floated in from the old cutting edge.
It's harder with music. Ligetti will never become Musak. But will it ever
become pleasurable music? I know taste is rearing its ugly head here.
Music has to be an uplifting experience. What's the point in creating an art
that is anything less than inspirational.
Even chillout music, designed for a generation of designer-drug-taking
ravers, is come down but is there to help.....
What is the purpose of music? I believe it can be boiled down to some very
simple points.
But then I would say that......wouldn't I nurse?
TP
If Napoleon liked guitar music, imagine where we'd be now!
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net> wrote in message
news:BBD131AF.1E40C%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Tim Panting wrote:
(snip)
>
> If Napoleon liked guitar music, imagine where we'd be now!
I've read that the Empress Marie-Louise knew and liked Giuliani.
Steve
--
Steve Carl
"Sam Culotta" <culot...@gte.invalid> wrote in message
news:fy_qb.12686$n6....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
>
> > Historically, THIS group never comes to a consensus of opinion.
> >
> >
> > jw
> >
> And I think you'll find full consensus on this one.
>
> Sam
>
>
I beg to differ....
Steve Carl
john....@alumni.pitt.edu
> In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
It's a tie between Julian Bream and John Williams.
So there!
Regards,
John E. Golden
Matt McNabb
"Michael Stevens" <michaelhow...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:IQuqb.204$6c3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Mike Stevens
>
>
That's a really immature question to ask.
And it's John Williams.
William Jennings
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:boiikd$adi$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
Excellent and entertaining for this early Sunday morning hour.
We have some genuis guitarist and many contemporary wizards these
days.... and we have enough.
Why in the name of Dog are lesser guitarist still trying to inflict
their lastest and best efforts in yet another
recital or vanity cd? It's as though there's a huge K-Mart store
somewhere making discount,
off-the-rack guitarist with nothing to say but....... buy me.
Classical guitar operators, I like that. That's right in there with
back-hoe, telemarketing and elevator operators.
My question also... what's the point if it's not inspirational.....to
what purpose? It's rare to have a Florante Aguilar
walk in out of the blue, just rapping away.
One small point, you said "every plink-plonky moment" which ought to
read " every plink-fucking-plonky moment."
Much so called "art music" is a term used to lend some kind of
legitimacy to stuff that's really fucking boring.
I'm not interested in searching for universal symbols that vibrate at
unconscious levels to use their significance to reach the soul and
thereby facilitate universal understanding. SEE:
http://hca.gilead.org.il/emperor.html
What interest me is vitality and a passion that is rendered almost as
tangible as wild monkey sex.
There are many excellent musicians who make music for themselves or
their immediate friends, usually without recognizing themselves as
artists, at least until some aficionado comes along to inform that they
are artist. You know it the instant you hear it's quality, naivete or
innocence ( Ida Presti), unpretentiousness, freedom from formal
constraints, ingenious use of tech., left-field creativity (South
American folk guitarist) or subject matter as the The Art of Harana -
Philippine Guitar Music or some combination of these qualities.
Art is about folks that can look further around the corner than most,
and not the elitest who are so willing to share their enlightened
self-interest... imo. There is a good read an articulate damnation of
contemporary art and the people who control it in a very short book by
Tom Wolfe entittled "The Painted Word".
Great post Tim.
Che' Iconoclast Petadoggy
Ulgy music is a mercy fuck.
___ I said that.
John Wasak
news:boiikd$adi$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> easier to walk away from a painting than it is to walk out of a
> recital....
Not if you're sitting in the last row! ;-) But more seriously:....
>you have to sit there and endure it, every plink-plonky moment,
> with the ultra-serious-faced perpetrator giving something for the greater
> good of mankind etc.
The difference between a painting and a piece of music is that a painting is
a creation and a piece of music, at least classical music as it is mostly
delivered, is a re-creation. Painters don't bring blank canvases out on a
stage and then paint while the audience looks on. Painters can fix
mistakes, makes changes and corrections before an audience encounters the
Art. Same usually goes for poets.... And that, as Robert Frost once told
us, has made all the difference.
> A simplistic notion for sure, but a lot of what was
> avant-garde in painting, sculpture etc. has become the 'musak' of the
> artworld. Look at what happened to abstract expressionism. A lot of the
> material covering the seats of trains or decorating the walls of a bank
has
> designs that appear to have floated in from the old cutting edge.
>
What happened to Abstract Expressionism? It is still with us in its
original form in museums, in private collections, in numerous reproductions
in Art books. The power of its expression, its Art, is still inherent in
the paintings - that hasn't disappeared. That some of the ideas of Abstract
Expressionism have bled into the greater culture should be no surprise.
This happens with all Art movements. Todays' "Revolutionary" is tomorrow's
"Old Hat". Happens everytime. Great Art always balances between those two
prime tenets of the Universe - stasis and change. The stable and the
unstable. Art always seeks change in the new, always acknowledges the past
in its traditions and techniques.
> It's harder with music. Ligetti will never become Musak. But will it ever
> become pleasurable music? I know taste is rearing its ugly head here.
>
To say Ligeti will not become Muzak suggests that you have a crystal ball of
unusual clarity. We, today, have no way of knowing if Ligeti will ever even
be remembered by a future musical humanity, or if he will become the
Beethoven of the mid-22nd century. Today, Beethoven is considered, by most
of the music listening public to be 'old hat', but in his day, many had a
problem with LvB's modernity.
> Music has to be an uplifting experience. What's the point in creating an
art
> that is anything less than inspirational.
>
Inspirational to whom? If the Artist is inspired by something to create,
is that not also inspirational?...at least to the artist? In order to be
receptive to any Art, one needs the eyes to see with and/or the ears to hear
with. Art, combined with properly receptive eyes and/or ears will always
be inspirational.
jw
> Even chillout music, designed for a generation of designer-drug-taking
> ravers, is come down but is there to help.....
>
> What is the purpose of music? I believe it can be boiled down to some very
> simple points.
>
> But then I would say that......wouldn't I nurse?
>
> TP
>
> If Napoleon liked guitar music, imagine where we'd be now!
>
jw
John Wasak
news:tocrb.8$_s2.82...@news.netcarrier.net...
See!
jw
Tim Panting
"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:nbWdnay4Zfe...@texas.net...
Wild Monkey Sex!
That made me lol.
Your post was great.
Freedom of formal constraints etc.
It's these elements that are missing from the 'vanity projects' most of the
time.
Tim
Tim Panting
Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport) successful in UK for over 40 years, and
apparently voted most famous living artist in the world in 1997 (some silly
survey), made his carrer with the catchphrase 'can you see what it is yet?'
Like Paint along with Nancy only much more fun, he'd paint big pictures of
all sorts, in big daubs which would eventually become a recogniseable
picture.
It was painting 'live' really.
So, it can be done. But then what do they say about watching paint dry?
TP
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1vBrb.20747$9M3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Tim Panting
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1vBrb.20747$9M3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
True. It would be fusty of me to suggest that art should be instantly
accessible and understandable, and loved, by all.
But I imagine, and have no real idea, nor does anyone else living in the
21st century, that when Beethoven unleashed his revolutionary ideas they did
not have the disruptive, iconoclastic imapct of say the second Vienese
school. Musicians could not afford to be such challengers. Music served a
purpose and composers were not so independant.
I'm sure his music caused more than a stir but people quickly came round
within his lifetime and loved his music for what it was.
Ligetti's music is disturbing but beautiful. But, as with most music coming
from a non tonal, multi-whatsit, bipolar etc. the greatest contribution to
the public psyche in the 20/21st century has been in film music, usually
horror films or sci-fi.....2001 Space Oddessy e.g. , which mixed J Strauss
with Ligetti.
>
>
> > It's harder with music. Ligetti will never become Musak. But will it
ever
> > become pleasurable music? I know taste is rearing its ugly head here.
> >
>
> To say Ligeti will not become Muzak suggests that you have a crystal ball
of
> unusual clarity. We, today, have no way of knowing if Ligeti will ever
even
> be remembered by a future musical humanity, or if he will become the
> Beethoven of the mid-22nd century. Today, Beethoven is considered, by most
> of the music listening public to be 'old hat', but in his day, many had a
> problem with LvB's modernity.
>
>
> > Music has to be an uplifting experience. What's the point in creating an
> art
> > that is anything less than inspirational.
> >
>
> Inspirational to whom? If the Artist is inspired by something to create,
> is that not also inspirational?...at least to the artist? In order to be
> receptive to any Art, one needs the eyes to see with and/or the ears to
hear
> with. Art, combined with properly receptive eyes and/or ears will always
> be inspirational.
>
>
> jw
>
>
You're right.
You could then say that anyone who puts pen to paper, paint to canvas, clay
to armature is producing art, and that they are inspired. And that what they
are producing is art.
Even thinking up a good idea is art.
I'd like to know when a person feels ready for the title of 'artist' to be
bestowed upon them. Or if indeed they need any confirmation of this other
than self belief.
On a personal basis I feel that the individual 'knows' when they are ready
to create and offer up their inspirations and they don't need others telling
them that they're not a 'proper' artist/composer because of such and such.
My crystal ball. Just like the one the wicked witch of the West has.
Only it needs a dusting.
Now where was that Birtwhistle recording...........
TP
My dad was a sculptor, definitely abstract. So I grew up with oxy acetelene,
fibre-glass(glass-fibre), and lots of other gunk.
And it was he who loved the classical guitar.
William Jennings
> Wild Monkey Sex!
>
> That made me lol.
Tim, please be advised......... never utter those words to a lady
friend.
I paid dearly for ever having said that. The gorilla suit I had to rent
Halloween was itchy, hot and some of the fur rubbed off on Blonde. I
set myself on fire while we were watching King Kong while Blonde laughed
so hard she was crying, as I ran to the shower putting the fire out.
Blonde did "do" my wet fur with her hair dryer, not exactly what I had
in mind......you understand?
In e-mails from work, Blonde dreams of Smokin' Wild Monkey Sex. Santa
might leave a Can-o-Crickets and Monkey Chow under her tree this year.
You have been warned,
Che'
Tim Panting
their ape world by $*&^ing the living daylights out of each other almost
every waking hour.
Tim
"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:UrGdnUullp0...@texas.net...
William Jennings
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:bonta2$h56$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> But then there are the Bonobo chimps, who seem to settle all disputes
in
> their ape world by $*&^ing the living daylights out of each other
almost
> every waking hour.
Mr. Panting,
Please address my most poignant question. How did we morph from the
inspirational, the banal and mediocrity in the art of classical
guitar, to frog-marching the Bonobo chimps out the front door of
Victoria's Secret?
Thank you in advance for your prompt attention to this urgent matter.
Che'
Tim Panting
I could morph until the cows came home.
As I desperately search for further inspiration......
Tim
"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> wrote in message
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Philip Smith
According to
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_816410.html?menu=news.quirkies
an art collector splashed out £95,000 on a painting by Rolf Harris -
without even knowing who he is. The woman collector paid the money for
his Impressionistic Flower Seller at the Elephant and Castle. Amazing!
Philip
Tim Panting wrote:
> The painter Rolf Harris, Australian TV personality, singer (Two Little Boys,
> Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport) successful in UK for over 40 years, and
> apparently voted most famous living artist in the world in 1997 (some silly
> survey), made his carrer with the catchphrase 'can you see what it is yet?'
>
> Like Paint along with Nancy only much more fun, he'd paint big pictures of
> all sorts, in big daubs which would eventually become a recogniseable
> picture.
>
> It was painting 'live' really.
>
> So, it can be done. But then what do they say about watching paint dry?
>
> TP
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1vBrb.20747$9M3....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
>>Tim Panting <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
>>news:boiikd$adi$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>
>>>The difference between a painting and a piece of music is that it's a
>>
> lot
>
>>>easier to walk away from a painting than it is to walk out of a
>>>recital....
<cut>
Tim Panting
He also used to have a programme called cartoon time where he introduced all
the great cartoons, Tex Avery etc.
He also pretty much introduced 'world music' to Britain with his wobble
board and digeridoo. Back at a time when the most exotic music on TV was the
Black and White Minstrel Show.
Tim
"Philip Smith" <psm...@mordent.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3FB0244...@mordent.demon.co.uk...
Tim Panting
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Paul Magnussen
HREF="mailto:Timpa...@btopenworld.com">Timpa...@btopenworld.com</A> wrote:
I think [Rolf Harris] is great.
As a kid, I found his programme's really enjoyable, and he seems to be a
charming person (I met him once).
But I've never really forgiven him for discovering Manitas de Plata.
Paul Magnussen
To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
Paul Magnussen
Tim Panting
I remember seeing MDP almost every other week on TV in England. He was one
of the original Gypsy Creams. Light entertainment shows Like the Val
Doonican Show, The Two Ronnies and the Morecambe and Wise show, gave many
musicians breaks, including of course John Williams. The demise of such
shows has robbed the musical world of a large and reliable audience. Shows
don't run long enough to establish an artist such as John Williams in the
public eye.
Having said that, there are Pop Idol-style programmes that are putting bands
together. Maybe they'll do one for aspiring concert artists. Could make for
great viewing.
Here we have a group of budding classical guitarists and by the end of six
weeks one of them will have recording contract with Sony, a guaranteed world
tour and ...and....oh well.
Tim
"Paul Magnussen" <maj...@aol.comspamless> wrote in message
news:20031111114952...@mb-m01.aol.com...
John Wasak
> The painter Rolf Harris, Australian TV personality, singer (Two Little
Boys,
> Tie me Kangaroo Down Sport) successful in UK for over 40 years, and
> apparently voted most famous living artist in the world in 1997 (some
silly
> survey), made his carrer with the catchphrase 'can you see what it is
yet?'
>
> Like Paint along with Nancy only much more fun, he'd paint big pictures of
> all sorts, in big daubs which would eventually become a recogniseable
> picture.
>
> It was painting 'live' really.
>
> So, it can be done. But then what do they say about watching paint dry?
>
> TP
Sure it can be done. The thing is though, that's not how it's usually done.
Since Abstract Expressionism has been brought up in this thread, it's
probably worth mentioning what I think is the best example I can think of
watching someone paint - the Hans Namuth documentary film on Jackson Pollock
made in the early 1950's shows Pollock creating his painting at his studio
on Long Island. It's actually very interesting, but that has everything to
do with Pollock's particular style of painting. Abstract Expressionism was
also called "Action Painting" and you realize it's the perfect name when you
see Pollock in action. He goes around the painting flinging paint from
brushes that never touch the canvas, moving and bending like a cat after its
prey...could even be mistaken for modern dance!
jw
Tim Panting
AE is so stimulating anyway, but actually seeing Pollock paint really made
you think of the tracks left by a living thing/person/animal whatever.
It's amazing but sometimes what appears to be frenzied marks, lines etc. in
a painting or a sculpture can actually conjure up something completely
differently in a musical way in my mind.
Often music of the same period does not appear to be connected to it's
visual equivalent.
But maybe that's because of the subliminal influence of soundtracks from
films and how we perceive visual images.
Hmmmm.
Tim
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:R1asb.21540$Oo4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
John Wasak
> Yes. That film is remarkable.
>
> AE is so stimulating anyway, but actually seeing Pollock paint really made
> you think of the tracks left by a living thing/person/animal whatever.
>
Yeah, some painting seems too antiseptic - a seeming cold hand that holds
the brush and touches the canvas. With Pollock you get the full thrust of
personality of thought. Very "of the moment". And real.... It could be
blood from his vein that pours out over those paintings....
> It's amazing but sometimes what appears to be frenzied marks, lines etc.
in
> a painting or a sculpture can actually conjure up something completely
> differently in a musical way in my mind.
>
> Often music of the same period does not appear to be connected to it's
> visual equivalent.
>
Well, of the Abstract Expressionists, musically, I always thought (and
think) that there is a sort of symbiotic relationship between the "classic"
paintings of Mark Rothko and the later music of Morton Feldman. Of course,
for those, the time periods aren't synchronous, but still, something like
Feldman's 'Rothko Chapel' evokes a silently serene, yet rhapsodic, beauty,
which is what I think Rothko's paintings possess.
> But maybe that's because of the subliminal influence of soundtracks from
> films and how we perceive visual images.
>
The Horror Movie syndrome!
> Hmmmm.
Hmmmm indeed! ;-)
>
> Tim
Regondi
aural.
ds
Tim Panting
I find his music very beautiful. Streamlined.
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:xyesb.21861$Oo4....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
David Raleigh Arnold
>
>
> Michael Stevens wrote:
>
>> In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
>>
>> Mike Stevens
>
> OK, the smart-ass answers start here. Best at what?
You beat me to it. daveA
--
When you've dug yourself into a hole, the first thing you should
do is not to call for more shovels, but to *stop digging*.
Western "leaders" have had 12 years to figure Iraq out. I did.
Why couldn't they? Never ever lift a finger to defend despots.
D. Raleigh Arnold dra@ http://www.openguitar.com darn...@cox.net
Jeff Gower
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> Morton Feldman is an exception.
>
> I find his music very beautiful. Streamlined.
Any suggestions for listening, Tim? I especially enjoy chamber music,
so any recommended Feldman works/recordings for that setting?
Best wishes,
Jeff
elmcmeen
> >> In the opinion of THIS group,<snip>
ROFLMAO
EM
John Wasak
> Calder and Earle Brown offer even a closer symbiosis between the visual
and
> aural.
> ds
>
Yeah, that's true. And probably Brown and Pollock too, though my familiarity
with Brown is probably not what it should be. The really great thing about
that whole New York school of composers - Cage, Feldman,Wolff, Brown - was
that they had a finger to the pulse of the visual art that was going on
around them.
jw
John Wasak
> Morton Feldman is an exception.
>
> I find his music very beautiful. Streamlined.
>
Three cheers for Morty! ;-)
Tim Panting
Nonesuch.
Tim
"Jeff Gower" <jeffgowerN...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:jeffgowerNixThisPart-...@newsgroups.bellsouth.net...
Jeff Gower
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
> I think its a piano quintet, with the kronos quartet that I last heard, on
> Nonesuch.
Thanks, Tim - I will check this out. I've enjoyed several Kronos
recordings so far, especially their recording of the Schnittke quartets.
Jeff
Roman Turovsky
Music".....................
RT
> I think its a piano quintet, with the kronos quartet that I last heard, on
> Nonesuch.
> Tim
John Wasak
news:BBD8F0F4.1E83E%r.tur...@attSPAMLESS.net...
> Morton Feldman has earned the epithet "Grateful Dead of Classical
> Music".....................
> RT
Do you mean because of compositions like 'For Christian Wolff' which runs
around three hours; 'For Philip Guston' which clocks in at over four, or
the 'String Quartet II' which monolithically expands for about six hours?
jw
Roman Turovsky
RT
______________
Roman M. Turovsky
http://turovsky.org
http://polyhymnion.org
John Wasak
> More specifically: great length, unsupported by any content.
> RT
I see. Well, Morty is not for everyone, and not everyone is for Morty.
jw
Richard Jernigan
winner of the GFA. He played the last movement of the Brouwer sonata
(ca 1990) to John Williams in his master class here at Merida.
Williams´ only response was "Do you do the other two?". He did them.
Williams´ _only_ comment after that was, "All I can say is that if Leo
Brouwer were here, he would be very, very happy. Does anyone in the
audience have questions for Cecilio?"
Someone asked how Cecilio solved the problem of making the frequent
return, in all the movements of the "fixed idea" novel each time.
Cecilio replied that he tried to vary dynamics and tone color.
Williams did add that the character of each return of the "fixed idea"
depended on the context. Cecilio muttered, in Spanish, "Yes. Of
course."
Cecilio´s playing of the Bach Prelude and Allegro from the Prelude,
Fugue and Allegro made Williams´ version of the Chaconne in his
concert sound like he was on autopilot. I have never heard Bach played
better on any instrument, and have heard it played or sung as well
only a few times in my 50-odd years of devotion to classical music.
The playing of the other 3 finalists was at a stratospheric level as
well, but Cecilo´s musicality was a very rare thing.
Okay, there´s no such thing as "the world´s best". But I had to get
that off my chest about Cecilio.
RNJ
"Michael Stevens" <michaelhow...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<IQuqb.204$6c3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
Tim Panting
But also here we go again....so and so plays the Brouwer so much better etc.
Like it's some kind of competition. (oh yes so it was)
You're always going to get fresh young talent straining at the bit and
wanting to show the world how well they can play.
What does it all mean?
TP
"Richard Jernigan" <rnjer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f5f4651.03111...@posting.google.com...
Richard Jernigan
sincerity and dedication to the music that radiates from his playing.
There was absolutely no effect of showing off. More than one person I
spoke to agreed with the idea that we seemed not to be hearing
Cecilio´s ideas about the pieces, rather that we were seeing and
hearing him live the music, and we liked the person we saw. Though his
playing was fantastically assured, there was no element of
display--all was in service to the music.
RNJ
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:<bpcu8t$bbs$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>...
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Richard Jernigan wrote:
> Cecilio Perera Villanueva, the 18-year old Yucatecan second place
> winner of the GFA. He played the last movement of the Brouwer sonata
> (ca 1990) to John Williams in his master class here at Merida.
> Williams´ only response was "Do you do the other two?". He did them.
>
> Williams´ _only_ comment after that was, "All I can say is that if Leo
> Brouwer were here, he would be very, very happy. Does anyone in the
> audience have questions for Cecilio?"
>
> Someone asked how Cecilio solved the problem of making the frequent
> return, in all the movements of the "fixed idea" novel each time.
> Cecilio replied that he tried to vary dynamics and tone color.
> Williams did add that the character of each return of the "fixed idea"
> depended on the context. Cecilio muttered, in Spanish, "Yes. Of
> course."
>
> Cecilio´s playing of the Bach Prelude and Allegro from the Prelude,
> Fugue and Allegro made Williams´ version of the Chaconne in his
> concert sound like he was on autopilot. I have never heard Bach played
> better on any instrument, and have heard it played or sung as well
> only a few times in my 50-odd years of devotion to classical music.
>
> The playing of the other 3 finalists was at a stratospheric level as
> well, but Cecilo´s musicality was a very rare thing.
>
> Okay, there´s no such thing as "the world´s best". But I had to get
> that off my chest about Cecilio.
>
> RNJ
Thanks, Richard. We'll have to keep an ear out.
Steve
>
>
> "Michael Stevens" <michaelhow...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<IQuqb.204$6c3...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> > In the opinion of THIS group, who is the best living classical guitarist?
> >
> > Mike Stevens
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Matanya Ophee
>The really arresting thing about Cecilio is the air of absolute
>sincerity and dedication to the music that radiates from his playing.
>There was absolutely no effect of showing off. More than one person I
>spoke to agreed with the idea that we seemed not to be hearing
>Cecilio´s ideas about the pieces, rather that we were seeing and
>hearing him live the music, and we liked the person we saw. Though his
>playing was fantastically assured, there was no element of
>display--all was in service to the music.
I beg to differ here, Richard. Anyone who demonstrates on-stage show
off mannerisms like lifting the right hand high in the air after every
large chord, turns me off instantly. And what really bothered me was
the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
Let us not forget that the first prize in this competition was
accorded to a Frenchman, Jeremy Jouve from Chambery, France. Third
Frenchman to win this competition. (Other two were Olivier Chassain
and Judicael Perroy). I have not heard him in the semi-finals and
finals, but I know the judges in these two rounds. They know what they
do and I trust their judgement completely.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
http://www.orphee.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
http://www.savageclassical.com/rmcg/album-rmcg/album.html
Matanya Ophee
>He sounds amazing. Really like to hear his playing live.
>
>But also here we go again....so and so plays the Brouwer so much better etc.
>Like it's some kind of competition. (oh yes so it was)
>
>You're always going to get fresh young talent straining at the bit and
>wanting to show the world how well they can play.
>
>What does it all mean?
Actually, nothing at all. The only good thing winning a second place
in the competition, was the $1000.- check the guy got. What will
happen to him next is still to be seen. Alieksey Vianna got that
second place several times. He was even on the list for this one, but
did not show up. Whatever he is doing now, has nothing to do with his
winning second places. Fan-chen Huang was one of the finalists in
Miami last year. She did not make it to the finals this time. Even
winning the first prize is not necessarily a free ticket to an instant
international career. Sure, Jeremy Jouve will get that Naxos
recording, but what else is there for him, depends on a lot more than
just this one win, or even several of them.
Sam Smith
"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:bpcu8t$bbs$1...@sparta.btinternet.com...
Carlos Barrientos
wrote:
>"Tim Panting" <Timpa...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>Even
>winning the first prize is not necessarily a free ticket to an instant
>international career. Sure, Jeremy Jouve will get that Naxos
>recording, but what else is there for him, depends on a lot more than
>just this one win, or even several of them.
>
Despite all of Denis Azabagic's success in competittions, his article
on winning the GFA in Sounboard Mqagazine is pretty interesting
reading...
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (229)-438-1087
A childlike man is not a man whose development has been arrested; on
the contrary, he is a man who has given himself a chance of
continuing to develop long after most adults have muffled themselves
in the cocoon of middle aged habit and convention. -- Aldous Huxley
Carlos Barrientos
wrote:
>rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
>
>>The really arresting thing about Cecilio is the air of absolute
>>sincerity and dedication to the music that radiates from his playing.
>>There was absolutely no effect of showing off. More than one person I
>>spoke to agreed with the idea that we seemed not to be hearing
>>Cecilio´s ideas about the pieces, rather that we were seeing and
>>hearing him live the music, and we liked the person we saw. Though his
>>playing was fantastically assured, there was no element of
>>display--all was in service to the music.
>
>I beg to differ here, Richard. Anyone who demonstrates on-stage show
>off mannerisms like lifting the right hand high in the air after every
>large chord, turns me off instantly.
No Liberace for you either, I bet... Elias Barreiro comment on the
same mannerism.
And what really bothered me was
>the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
>which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
>semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
>even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
>local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
>international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
>audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
>GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
>competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
>was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
Ah, nationalist pride ... that kind of thing... well, that would be so
off topic...
Ultimatel, that's unfortunate.
Matanya Ophee
>
>And what really bothered me was
>>the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
>>which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
>>semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
>>even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
>>local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
>>international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
>>audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
>>GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
>>competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
>>was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>>for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
>
>Ah, nationalist pride ... that kind of thing... well, that would be so
>off topic...
It is very much ON Topic IMO. The entire venture, getting the GFA to
acknowledge the existence of our neighbors to the south, not only
those to the north, thus suffered one hell of a blow. Never mind that
only a small number of Americans could afford the extra stiff price
for air fare and avoided the event, thus insuring an overwhelming
majority of the local populace. Actually, even many of the GFA board
members did not come down for this. In contrast to this we have had
the several GFA events in Canada where no such disparity occurred.
What was really sad here, for me at least, was that this juvenile
enthusiasm for _one_ of the competitors was a slap in the face to all
the others. I had the same type of experience in the Tychy competition
in Poland, when this chauvinistic claque in support of the local boys,
was not only practiced by the audience, but also by some of the local
jury members, one reason I did not accept any more invitations from
them.
The nature of an international competition is that winning it must be
based on the musical quality of the performance, and not on the
nationality of the competitor. It is indeed a sad comment on the
Mexican organizers of this event that no effort was made to stop this
claque right from the very beginning. It could have been done, and it
wasn't.
I suspect it will be many years before the GFA will come again to
Mexico.
Alain Reiher
Vancouver next sunday ... playing a salon concert at 3 pm! Our Guitar luck
is improving! [The Assad brothers are comming too in february 2004, so is
Paco I have heard!]
Indeed very sad to consider that after the GFA/Naxos/tournée de concerts,
the question is : what's next? Maybe 25 years from now all the winner can
put together the GFA first prize winner's Orchestra?
Alain
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:83hkrvsnclu8k5np7...@4ax.com...
Matanya Ophee
>Indeed very sad to consider that after the GFA/Naxos/tournée de concerts,
>the question is : what's next?
Some make it further and become a regular fixture, and some disappear
into the wood works. Some others, let us not forget, make it big in
the world without ever winning any competition. Which is probably what
Alieksy finally realized....
Robert Firestone
> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
>
> >The really arresting thing about Cecilio is the air of absolute
> >sincerity and dedication to the music that radiates from his playing.
> >There was absolutely no effect of showing off. More than one person I
> >spoke to agreed with the idea that we seemed not to be hearing
> >Cecilio´s ideas about the pieces, rather that we were seeing and
> >hearing him live the music, and we liked the person we saw. Though his
> >playing was fantastically assured, there was no element of
> >display--all was in service to the music.
>
> I beg to differ here, Richard. Anyone who demonstrates on-stage show
> off mannerisms like lifting the right hand high in the air after every
> large chord, turns me off instantly. And what really bothered me was
> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
Matanya Ophee
>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<gofkrvc74i6bsgv16...@4ax.com>...
>> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
>> what really bothered me was
>> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
>> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
>> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
>> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
>> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
>> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
>> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
>> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
>> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
>> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
>
>Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
>not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma. One tries to be fair
to all, but when faced with what appears to be a well organized
claque, however spontaneous it may appear to be, it is difficult to
dissociate the competitor himself from his noisy promoters. By cutting
a few points for this uncalled for interference in the jury's work,
one hopes to strike a more balanced judgement of the _other_
competitors, those who did not bring with them from France a whole
contingent of ruffian fans, but simply played the music the best they
can. I don't really know if any of the judges reacted to this noise
any which way. I am only saying how _I_ would have reacted, based on
my reaction to similar outbursts in other competitions.
Jacques Moran
turn music performance into a sporting event somebody's going to have home
field advantage -- or disadvantage if the judges are inclined as you are.
Carlos Barrientos
wrote:
>Carlos Barrientos <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
Hear, hear - and yes, I agree... nationalism, IMHO, and in the long
run has not led to any great spiritual awakenings or humanitarian
expansions. Today it's rooting on the local boy/girl in a guitar
competition. Tomorrow - let's invade a country. That was what I was
clumsily trying to awaken.
In my view, I am a citizen of planet/spaceship earth! Gosh, I wish
other earthlings shared this view.
To the specifics of this particular microcosm, the GFA competition, I
believe that instruction to the audience that EMPHASIZED that
outrageous social behavior might actually HURT the particular
candidate's opportunity for a successful evaluation by the Jury panel
in the COMPETITION might have been a good idea (?) Save it for the
featured CONCERT ARTISTS!
That being said, as a man who was born Latino, I am embarrassed by the
described behaviour. And may help to explain one of many reasons why
artistically I left Honduras and sought a life elsewhere. Despite the
nature and excitement that competitions engender, I resolutely believe
that what we do is an ARTISTIC pursuit and not an ATHLETIC event. If
that were the case, I'd have continued to pursue being a soccer
goalie... (;-)
Que lastima, MO, que lastima...
Matanya Ophee
Not necessarily. In many competitions I have sat as a judge, the
public was clearly instructed not to engage in this kind of
demonstration. Allowing it to happen, does in fact turn the
competition into a sporting event, and this is sad. Imagine allowing
the public to demonstrate for or against the accused in a court of
law. The home field should not have any advantage or disadvantage in
an international guitar competition sponsored by a US organization in
Mexico. Or anywhere else for that matter.
Jacques Moran
Not being at this event, I can only imagine what you are describing. I'd
guess I'd have probably been pretty annoyed myself.
Comparing a guitar competition to a court of law? Given the current
political climate in the US and my personal experience on both ends of
competitions -- yeah, you might have something there.
I did some playing in this part of the world last summer. The people there
were very warm, appreciative, receptive and also--at the same time: rude,
noisy, vulgar, inattentive. etc. I was pretty vexed at times. Too bad the
poor sob's never had the privilege of a $100,000+ education like me to know
them how to really behave at erudite cultural events.
Robert Firestone
> rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
>
> >Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<gofkrvc74i6bsgv16...@4ax.com>...
> >> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
> >> what really bothered me was
> >> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
> >> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
> >> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
> >> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
> >> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
> >> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
> >> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
> >> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
> >> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
> >> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
> >> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
> >
> >Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
> >not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
>
> Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
> competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma.
Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
have to agree to disagree here!
Matanya Ophee
>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<bbqlrvgnsb30nm1t5...@4ax.com>...
>> rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
>>
>> >Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<gofkrvc74i6bsgv16...@4ax.com>...
>> >> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
>> >> what really bothered me was
>> >> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
>> >> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
>> >> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
>> >> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
>> >> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
>> >> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
>> >> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
>> >> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
>> >> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
>> >> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>> >> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
>> >
>> >Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
>> >not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
>>
>> Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
>> competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma.
>
>Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
>have to agree to disagree here!
What exactly are you disasgreeing with?
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Robert Firestone wrote:
>
> Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
> have to agree to disagree here!
Robert--
Isn't that just a bit disingenuous? Surely you don't think MO was endorsing unfair judging. I think it is
clear he is angry about how the partisan audience may have negatively impacted the other competitors.
Steve
Scott Daughtrey
>rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
>
>>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<bbqlrvgnsb30nm1t5...@4ax.com>...
>>> rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
>>>
>>> >Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<gofkrvc74i6bsgv16...@4ax.com>...
>>> >> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
>>> >> what really bothered me was
>>> >> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
>>> >> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
>>> >> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
>>> >> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
>>> >> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
>>> >> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
>>> >> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
>>> >> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
>>> >> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
>>> >> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>>> >> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
>>> >
>>> >Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
>>> >not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
>>>
>>> Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
>>> competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma.
"Not faced with", yet you alrealdy specified exactly how you would have
reacted to said dilemna...
>>Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
>>have to agree to disagree here!
>
>What exactly are you disasgreeing with?
Hunh...anything involving morality instantly loses poor MO.
The point was pretty obvious to me: "life is unfair" is not a justification to
act unfairly towards others. You, on the other hand, have already been
extremely implicit that you will act like childish, unfairly and quite
un-professionally for personal reasons :
> If I was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
> for this claque.
Clearly Robert doesn't see this as justifiable but you do. It's really retty
obvious what the disagreement is here...
I suppose you can list all the reasonable and responsible measures taken to
stop the claque, fair measures, that were completely exhausted _before_ you
decided you would personally reduce an innocent person's marks (translation:
years of hard work) given the opportunity, an unfair reactionary measure.
Scott Daughtrey
<born...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
>
>
>Robert Firestone wrote:
>
>>
>> Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
>> have to agree to disagree here!
>
>Robert--
>
> Isn't that just a bit disingenuous? Surely you don't think MO was endorsing unfair judging.
Steve: did MO say this or not:
> If I was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
> for this claque.
Scott
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Scott Daughtrey wrote:
Sure he did. My daughter also tells me she hates me on a regular basis. Thirty seconds later
she loves me again. It was clear to me that MO's statement was hyperbole, and a reaction to his
perception that the environment was already unfair.
Mo hardly needs my defense, but it is hard for me to ignore what seems obviously a distortion of
what he said.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Scott Daughtrey
<born...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
>
>
>Scott Daughtrey wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:27:26 -0500, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
>> <born...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Robert Firestone wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
>> >> have to agree to disagree here!
>> >
>> >Robert--
>> >
>> > Isn't that just a bit disingenuous? Surely you don't think MO was endorsing unfair judging.
>>
>> Steve: did MO say this or not:
>> > If I was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>> > for this claque.
>>
>> Scott
>
> Sure he did. My daughter also tells me she hates me on a regular basis. Thirty seconds later
>she loves me again. It was clear to me that MO's statement was hyperbole, and a reaction to his
>perception that the environment was already unfair.
I fail to see how using a child as a benchmark for "fair" adult behaviour is
reasonable. When that day comes I suspect the GFA will be maintained and
judged by children, not adults.
Clearly children are expected to react like children based on their limited
perception from experience. The same defense is hardly reasonable in the case
of an adult.
> Mo hardly needs my defense, but it is hard for me to ignore what seems obviously a distortion of
>what he said.
I see no distortion in a direct quote. And it's hard for to ignore three years
of reading distorted reactionary methods not to mention personal distortion of
facts (and your justification here is rather weak considering you ignored MO's
public claims, errr lies I mean, that I dismissed Lior's compositions without
feeling the need to comment, one of at least a dozen examples...I guess you
prefer to grease your nose in a specific hole).
Scott
Matanya Ophee
>
>>>> Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
>>>> competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma.
>
>"Not faced with", yet you alrealdy specified exactly how you would have
>reacted to said dilemna...
Not specified exactly. I could have cut 2 points, or 5 points or 20
points, or cut nothing from this one guy, bu add points to the others.
There is a wide margin in judging.
>The point was pretty obvious to me: "life is unfair" is not a justification to
>act unfairly towards others. You, on the other hand, have already been
>extremely implicit that you will act like childish, unfairly and quite
>un-professionally for personal reasons :
>> If I was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
>> for this claque.
What "personal reasons" are you referring to? my objection to
organized or even spontaneous claque? Yes, I do feel a very personal
appreciation for a guy who invested not only years of hard work, but
also a large sum of money in paying for the trip all the way from
France, only to be faced with an unruly audience rooting loudly for
the local boy who at best had to buy a bus ticket from home for 5
pesos. That Jeremy Jouve won the first prize in spite of that, is one
assurance that the system works.
>
>Clearly Robert doesn't see this as justifiable but you do. It's really retty
>obvious what the disagreement is here...
>
>I suppose you can list all the reasonable and responsible measures taken to
>stop the claque, fair measures, that were completely exhausted _before_ you
>decided you would personally reduce an innocent person's marks (translation:
>years of hard work) given the opportunity, an unfair reactionary measure.
You seem to misunderstand the nature of competition judging. By
cutting one person's points, the judge _increases_ the _other_
competitors points. We are assuming that ALL the competitors have
invested years of hard work in getting where they are. Therefore, it
would be the judge's obligation to insure that no one gets an unfair
advantage by a noisy local bunch. If need be, you make some trimming
here and there so as to balance the books so to speak. You can do that
by cutting one guy's points, or by adding some points to the others. I
usually accord a competitor 10 points (out of a total of 25), for
simply being able to sit down and hold the guitar in place. Some of
the additional points are given for musical aspects such as technique,
expression, choice of repertoire, dynamics and rhythmical control etc,
and some of the points are given, or taken away, for stage manners and
other non-musical aspects of a performance.
There were some 40-50 participants in this competition. 12 made it to
the second round. I know of at least one guy, who is a very fine
guitarist indeed, who also invested years of hard work, who failed to
make it to the finals for something completely unrelated to his actual
performance. He argued with the judges about their choice of the
pieces he was to play. Were they fair to him?
It is open to debate. Personally, I think it was stupid of the guy to
open his mouth. Your job as a competitor is to play the guitar, not to
educate the jury on the finer points of repertoire choices. And the
judges were right to flunk him out, no matter how many years he has
invested, how many important concerts he played and how many
recordings already to his credit.
This whole discussion is irrelevant to the issue at hand. I was not a
judge, and the only thing I expressed was my personal annoyance. And
if you like to discuss morality, I think it would have been extremely
immoral to deny the first prize to the best player there, however good
the local kid was. As Carlos B. already pointed out, this is a
cultural thing in Latin America, as it is in other countries such as
Poland. I don't have to like it.
The next GFA festival will probably take place in Canada, as it
already did several times. The last one, in Montreal 1998, had one
Canadian performer, from Montreal, who, according to my own personal
preferences, was the best of the lot. The first prize went to someone
else. There was no such outburst of local demonstration, and I don't
expect it to occur again.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Scott Daughtrey wrote:
(snip)
Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Matanya Ophee
>
>I see no distortion in a direct quote. And it's hard for to ignore three years
>of reading distorted reactionary methods not to mention personal distortion of
>facts (and your justification here is rather weak considering you ignored MO's
>public claims, errr lies I mean, that I dismissed Lior's compositions without
>feeling the need to comment, one of at least a dozen examples
OK. Let's put this in perspective.
Scott Daughtrey
<born...@dentaltwins.com> wrote:
>
>
>Scott Daughtrey wrote:
>
>(snip)
>
> Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
No probs. So we'll see less nostril-greasing in the future then? Good stuff,
you've made me proud to be a human.
Scott
Alain Reiher
Hopefuly on the west coast!
UBC ? Victoria? or Edmonton?
Or will it be in Ottawa? or in rib's neck of the wood?
Who was this guy from montréal?
And what happen to him/
Alain
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in >
Matanya Ophee
>Ha! That would be great ...
>Hopefuly on the west coast!
>UBC ? Victoria? or Edmonton?
>Or will it be in Ottawa? or in rib's neck of the wood?
Nothing so remote. Rumor has it, it might be in Montreal, as before.
>Who was this guy from montréal?
>And what happen to him
Alive and well and prospering, even without the win.
http://www.patrickkearney.ca/english/
Pierre Tremblay
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:ur5orvko8o525fhmt...@4ax.com...
> "Alain Reiher" <rei...@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >Ha! That would be great ...
> >Hopefuly on the west coast!
> >UBC ? Victoria? or Edmonton?
> >Or will it be in Ottawa? or in rib's neck of the wood?
>
> Nothing so remote. Rumor has it, it might be in Montreal, as before.
That will be great!
Robert Firestone
> Robert Firestone wrote:
>
> >
> > Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
> > have to agree to disagree here!
>
> Robert--
>
> Isn't that just a bit disingenuous? Surely you don't think MO was endorsing unfair judging. I think it is
> clear he is angry about how the partisan audience may have negatively impacted the other competitors.
>
> Steve
Steve,
I think that it is unfair to judge the players on anything but their
playing. Call me ingenuous.
Ro
Robert Firestone
> rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
>
> >Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<bbqlrvgnsb30nm1t5...@4ax.com>...
> >> rof...@hotmail.com (Robert Firestone) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<gofkrvc74i6bsgv16...@4ax.com>...
> >> >> rnjer...@yahoo.com (Richard Jernigan) wrote:
> >> >> what really bothered me was
> >> >> the special treatment this guy got from his Mexican audience, one
> >> >> which they did not accord his fellow finalists and even
> >> >> semi-finalists. Loud applause every time he appeared in public, and
> >> >> even before he played a single note. I understand the enthusiasm of
> >> >> local chauvinism, but this was an international competition, and an
> >> >> international event. I never heard this kind of reaction from American
> >> >> audiences in GFA competitions in the US, or from Canadian audiences in
> >> >> GFA competitions in Canada. It was simply unfair to the other
> >> >> competitors, and more importantly, not fair to Cecilio himself. If I
> >> >> was a judge, I would have cut a few points from the guy's total just
> >> >> for this claque. Some judges probably did that.
> >> >
> >> >Would it be fair to him to judge him for what others did? Maybe I am
> >> >not hearing you right, but that in itself is profoundly unfair!
> >>
> >> Life is unfair, mostly, and luckily I was not a judge in this
> >> competition, so I was not faced with the dilemma.
> >
> >Therefore, since "life is unfair", "let's be unfair". Sorry, we'll
> >have to agree to disagree here!
>
> What exactly are you disasgreeing with?
The idea that you would alter your judgement based upon the behavior
of the audience, and that the statement "life is unfair" justifies
anything. As I said before, maybe I got you wrong, but that's what it
sounds like you are saying to me...
Ro
Matanya Ophee
>> What exactly are you disasgreeing with?
>
> The idea that you would alter your judgement based upon the behavior
>of the audience, and that the statement "life is unfair" justifies
>anything. As I said before, maybe I got you wrong, but that's what it
>sounds like you are saying to me...
No, you got me right. That is exactly what I said, and of course you
are entitled to disagree with this. But do let me remind you that a
judge in a competition is obliged to be fair to ALL the competitors,
and as you say, they all should be judged on the merits of their
performance and on nothing else. It seems to me that it would be
humanly impossible to maintain a perfect impartiality when faced with
a very noisy and provocative claque in support of the local boy. To be
fair to the _others_, compensating for this interference in the work
of the jury would be the right and moral thing to do. Let me know how
you react to this issue, next time _you_ are a member of the jury.
Alain Reiher
November again?
If that is so, I will have to find my way around that!
Alain
"Pierre Tremblay" <pie...@pierretci.com> wrote in message
news:snVub.1544$NB4....@news20.bellglobal.com...
Alain Reiher
to be held in Montréal!
Alain
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:ur5orvko8o525fhmt...@4ax.com...
Matanya Ophee
>Je dirais même plus! That would be great! But shnnoucks! That would be in
>November again?
None of that is known to me at this time. Just some rumors I heard. It
could be in Montreal, or in San Antonio, or (if I really go bonkers in
the next couple of weeks) in Columbus OH.
Robert Firestone
Steve,
Clarification can be found in message 20.
ro