Hardest classical guitar song to play?
Davey
to only be played by someone who has been playing for a very long time?
I am not referring to a song that requires a lot of speed but hard
fingerings or very hard rhythms. (hell, practically any song can be
made very hard if you want to double the tempo or play it in a
different medium; say SRV's little wing on a 12 string)
Paul Burdett
Paul
"Davey" <Mr_J...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106017176....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
William Jennings
his "Variations on a Theme by Tarrega (Lagrima)" defeated me. I worked
on it off and on for years as technique but never quite mastered it or
played it in public. Most of what many consider difficult with Barrios
is technique and fingerings, imo. The Dyen's "French Songs" can be very
difficult.
"Paul Burdett" <pbur...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:41ec8df7$0$2625$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Ashby
Benjamin Britten's Nocturnal has some parts that are real knuckle benders
and some other parts that are downright impossible. In one instance he calls
for E and F# together in the bass. But you can't play 2 notes on the same
string. Also, some of the variations are polytonal, they are written on 2
staves, with the top one in one key and the bottom one in another.
Ashby
PBM
"Ashby" <asha...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WKadnQfI59F...@comcast.com...
Rodrigo's Invocación y Danza seems pretty tough to me, though I haven't
looked at the score in a few years. Also, isn't David Russell's Handel
transcription legendary for its difficulty?
Rewviolao
Good Luck!
Klaus Heim
"Davey" <Mr_J...@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1106017176....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
To put the previous answers into perspective, use the search at BMIC
(http://www.bmic.co.uk/collection/searchform.asp) to look up score samples
to these pieces:
- Sam Hayden "Axe(s)"
- Brian Ferneyhough "Kurze Schatten II"
- James Erber "Am Grabe Memphis Minnies" (complete score available for free
download)
- Michael Finnissy "Nasiye" (complete score available for free download)
- Alwynne Pritchard "Nostos Ou Topos II" (complete score available for free
download)
Klaus
William Jennings
"Rewviolao" <rewv...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20050118095127...@mb-m03.aol.com...
> Try MOST of Carlos Barbosa-Lima's arrangements.
>
> Good Luck!
Carlos has his own style and a very good left hand. I have always paid
close attention to his work. You have to study with Carlos with his own
stuff to grasp his technique. I don't have his kind of hands but took
some master classes with him years ago. I went to that first master
class in Pittsburgh with a piece of his I had a lot of questions about.
I played the worst of anyone in that class.... not for long. :-) I
didn't care what anyone thought I wanted to know stuff. :-) Carlos knew
stuff!
It's really silly to take polished things to a master class. It's
esp.silly, imo, to take music that teacher is not right on top of or
doing himself. When you take sometime they (master-teacher) do, and you
can't figure it out, they can open some doors for you. I had clearly
documented my questions in a notebook Carlos took each question and
explored the what and why's to the class. We all learned a great deal.
Che'
Sam Culotta
>Benjamin Britten's Nocturnal has some parts that are real knuckle benders
> and some other parts that are downright impossible. In one instance he
calls
> for E and F# together in the bass. But you can't play 2 notes on the same
> string. <
So, what did you do? What is intended? Or was it just a typo?
Sam
John Andrews
said to be beside himself with embarrassment at having made this solecism -
but after all he never played the guitar and wrote this fiendish piece from
Bream's diagram of the fingerboard.
John Andres
"Sam Culotta" <culot...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:NxdHd.10534$Os6.8022@trnddc08...
Sam Culotta
"John Andrews" <jo...@anti-spamjohnpandrews.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:csjt5t$g7m$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Britten told Bream to play one note while thinking of the other! Britten
was
> said to be beside himself with embarrassment at having made this
solecism -
> but after all he never played the guitar and wrote this fiendish piece
from
> Bream's diagram of the fingerboard.
>
> John Andres
Ah...that's good. At least he had a sense of humor about it. He probably
also suggested a dry martini was made by setting the glass of gin next to
the vermouth bottle.
Sam
Horace A. 'Kicker' Vallas, Jr.
and different times as well if memory servs :-)
but a really nice piece!!
--
Horace ...once known as "Kicker" :-)
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Ashby
news:csjt5t$g7m$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
was
> said to be beside himself with embarrassment at having made this
solecism -
> but after all he never played the guitar and wrote this fiendish piece
from
> Bream's diagram of the fingerboard.
>
> John Andres
>
Right. Britten told Bream, who is the dedicatee of the Nocturnal, to play
the E and "think" the F#. That's one of the things that makes this piece so
difficult: How do you convey to the audience that you're playing one note
while thinking of another?
I'm not so sure about the extent of Britten's embarassment. According to
Bream, he could have changed it before publication but never bothered to do
so.
Ashby
William Jennings
> "John Andrews" <jo...@anti-spamjohnpandrews.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message
> news:csjt5t$g7m$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Britten told Bream to play one note while thinking of the other!
Britten
> was
> > said to be beside himself with embarrassment at having made this
> solecism -
> > but after all he never played the guitar and wrote this fiendish
piece
> from
> > Bream's diagram of the fingerboard.
> >
> > John Andres
> >
>
> Right. Britten told Bream, who is the dedicatee of the Nocturnal, to
play
> the E and "think" the F#. That's one of the things that makes this
piece so
> difficult: How do you convey to the audience that you're playing one
note
> while thinking of another?
How do they do that on stage..... we do it all the time. You can do
that with a instant look, a turn of the head, a smile. I'm with this
one but I'm thinking of the other.
You will not like this answer. We will it to happen! Your conviction
is what counts, imo. > Sometimes having just the right kind of room
helps you with this. If in that right room you can find a faint trace
of that sound.... work on it. Once you get the feel for it.... you can
do it almost anywhere. Nocturnal needs a certain kind of live room to
work, imo. It's hard to get angry
have an angst, with wall to wall carpet, drapes, stuffed chairs and
couch. We need a certain kind of space to really make it suffer...
Of course we know who's opinion this is... other's may vary.
Che'
Ashby
news:BdGdnY2TzIu...@texas.net...
I pose the question rhetorically, and I do like your answer. I think Britten
would, too.
> Sometimes having just the right kind of room
> helps you with this. If in that right room you can find a faint trace
> of that sound.... work on it. Once you get the feel for it.... you can
> do it almost anywhere.
>
Yes. The room is an instrument, too. It becomes part of the music.
> Nocturnal needs a certain kind of live room to
> work, imo. It's hard to get angry
> have an angst, with wall to wall carpet, drapes, stuffed chairs and
> couch. We need a certain kind of space to really make it suffer...
>
Agreed. One of the early masters (was it Giuliani or Sor?) said the guitar
should be played in a rectangular room. I've always lived in old buildings
with high ceilings and hardwood floors because the acoustics are so good.
Andrea Palladio, the Italian architect, had it right: A room with proper
proportions has harmony. I would add that this harmony contains a certain
energy. You can mold it to suit the music. The sound can be far away, or it
can come crashing out of the walls, or it can do any of a million things,
whatever you want. Bream seemed to understand Britten's remark that he
should play one note and "think" another. And I think I understand why
Britten didn't change the score before publishing it. I believe he wanted to
keep it that way. And why not?
> Of course we know who's opinion this is... other's may vary.
>
Maybe so. To each his own.
Ashby
Erik
Ashby wrote:
> Right. Britten told Bream, who is the dedicatee of the Nocturnal, to
play
> the E and "think" the F#. That's one of the things that makes this
piece so
> difficult: How do you convey to the audience that you're playing one
note
> while thinking of another?
That's interesting that he told him to leave out the F#. That's the
melody note while the E is part of the ostinato (even with the absence
of the E, the ostinato part continues with the open D.)
David Schramm
ass-kicker. Keys of Eb/Cmi and Bb/G minor with drop D. It is no wonder it
isn't played very often. I'm going on tour with our college choir palying
this piece in central California. I must be nuts to keep playing this thing.
--
David Schramm
Clovis, CA
http://schrammguitars.com
http://onlineapprentice.com
David Raleigh Arnold
>
> "Rewviolao" <rewv...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20050118095127...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>> Try MOST of Carlos Barbosa-Lima's arrangements.
>>
>> Good Luck!
>
> Carlos has his own style and a very good left hand. I have always paid
> close attention to his work. You have to study with Carlos with his own
> stuff to grasp his technique. I don't have his kind of hands but took
> some master classes with him years ago. I went to that first master
> class in Pittsburgh with a piece of his I had a lot of questions about.
> I played the worst of anyone in that class.... not for long. :-) I
> didn't care what anyone thought I wanted to know stuff. :-) Carlos knew
> stuff!
I audited a CBL class many years ago. The good thing was that he had
very clear concepts of how he himself played, and he was able to
communicate those concepts very well. Segovia OTOH taught almost
entirely interpretation, because he had unresolved issues in his own
playing. But I always say of CBL "Every time I see that [guy], he
has a different act." He has changed his right hand radically at
least two or three times but maybe he's settled down now.
CBL talked of how other players didn't use enough tone colors. They
only have two sounds, according to him. Hearing him play in concert
afterward, it was apparent that he just didn't understand contrast,
because all his stuff sounded the same. There is a middle ground, and
he wasn't on it. He was so subtle he was out of business. He also
made the mistake of playing old music with a bridge timbre to imitate
a harpsichord. That's a loser, because neither the harpsichord nor
the guitar lovers will like it.
> It's really silly to take polished things to a master class.
No it's not.
> esp.silly, imo, to take music that teacher is not right on top of or
> doing himself. When you take sometime they (master-teacher) do, and
> you can't figure it out, they can open some doors for you.
Only if you can play the damn thing--polished.
> documented my questions in a notebook Carlos took each question and
> explored the what and why's to the class. We all learned a great deal.
Exactly. He could do that because he had thought through his own
ideas thoroughly, and he had the ability and the inclination to
communicate them well. There was no trace of "Do as I say, don't do
as I do." Those are great and important qualities for a teacher to
have.
So, who's the best teacher I ever saw in a master class? It doesn't
matter to me because I am just as likely to learn something from a bad
one as a good one. I once could have cracked up an opinion. Not any
more. I learned nothing from CBL but I rate him A-1 as a teacher.
Others learned plenty I'm sure.
"Who's your teacher?" is a much more difficult question than it seems
to be. It's more like porpoises and potatoes than apples and oranges.
I suppose I could pick a bad one but I've been fortunate enough not to
have encountered or even seen movies or videos of any bad teachers of
master classes. One teacher may be just the guy/gal at one stage of
your development and no help at all at another. So, no dice. daveA
--
The only technical exercises for guitar which are worthy of the
instrument consist in "Dynamic Guitar Technique". I promise miracles.
Get it at: http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
William Jennings
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.01.19....@cox.net...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:54:27 -0600, William Jennings wrote:
I'm not trying to convince you. Do it your way.
Che'
David Raleigh Arnold
The hardest of Segovia's greatest hits is usually considered to be
Torre Bermeja. That's only from the ones he played a lot, mind.
Some of Tarrega's arrangements of Chopin are very difficult. The
hardest--? There are more coming all the time. daveA
David Raleigh Arnold
Both Segovia master classes that I was in were preceded by two weeks+
of nasty guard summer camp with no guitar, and I suffered for it. I
didn't see anyone come out ahead from lack of preparation. I had a
different experience is all. That's why I felt that your advice may
have been a bit dangerous? daveA
William Jennings
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.01.19....@cox.net...
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:02:09 -0600, William Jennings wrote:
>
>
> > "David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2005.01.19....@cox.net...
> >> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:54:27 -0600, William Jennings wrote:
> >
> > I'm not trying to convince you. Do it your way.
> >
> > Che'
>
> Both Segovia master classes that I was in were preceded by two weeks+
> of nasty guard summer camp with no guitar, and I suffered for it. I
> didn't see anyone come out ahead from lack of preparation. I had a
> different experience is all. That's why I felt that your advice may
> have been a bit dangerous? daveA<
I counted eight master classes I attended in various countries. I
happen to be taking master classes in another field at this time.
I don't go there to show her how much I know, how well I can dress, or
tell her how things ought to be done. She is a dictator and it will be
done exactly as she directs..... that's why I drive 145 miles one way to
study with her.
A serious student has all kinds of questions. To have someone in a
master class play something that teacher hasn't performed or recorded
and has pretty well polished on his own is not very rewarding for that
student, the teacher or the class. This does not apply to a student who
has sincere questions about a piece that their are deeply engaged in.
A Segovia master class, in those times, was quite different. Yes, you
want polished pieces then. In most master classes I attended everyone
wanted to learn. It was those students that were struggling with
pieces, fingerings, technique and the why's of this that and the other
that I learned the mosr from. In America I noted sometimes there might
be one or two player's who came to show off their lastest composition
and see if the could put the teacher on the spot. I was a pretty hot
player an I've had that same kind of player want to critize the teacher,
on breaks or after class. I can't recall a mater class that wasn't good
for me. Anyone can tell if a player is struggling with a work.... the
best place to open up the problems is in a master class... I would have
two or three things I could select from and have done my homework,
listed my questions in advance.
This helps the teacher better understand your problem be it musical or
technical or both. It also allows the teacher to see your thinking
process.... to try an articulate in the chair, under pressure.... well
hell, some people just look ..........Duh!
That teacher can best help you if you have prepared a little paper on
your exact problems... whatever. In the class I mentioned, other
students got copies of my well prepared questions and CBL had me write
his answers on a blackboard for the class. Thereafter, I have always
used manuscript paper to figure out my own problems. CBL was so engaged
in that class none of us, including him, couldn't believe the time
passed so fast. I think everyone left recharged and content after that
class.
I said nothing about lack of preparation. I said bring what that
teacher knows best and you don't understand. That way you get the very
best out of the teacher. If I went to a Dyen's master class I damned
sure wouldn't take something by York. I would take something of Dyen's
and better understand my why's.... watch him do it and do it myself. I
haven't been to a master class in years. I think they are different now
from what I've heard.
Che' (typed in a hurry)
William Jennings
<Snip>
> Agreed. One of the early masters (was it Giuliani or Sor?) said the
guitar
> should be played in a rectangular room. I've always lived in old
buildings
> with high ceilings and hardwood floors because the acoustics are so
good.
> Andrea Palladio, the Italian architect, had it right: A room with
proper
> proportions has harmony. I would add that this harmony contains a
certain
> energy. You can mold it to suit the music. <
You might enjoy this : http://tinyurl.com/5dq67
Yes, I too have always been concerned with having the right kind of room
to play in.... and light. Light coming in from four sides of the room
really makes a difference to me.
Che'
Olof
> Britten told Bream to play one note while thinking of the other! Britten was
> said to be beside himself with embarrassment at having made this solecism -
> but after all he never played the guitar and wrote this fiendish piece from
> Bream's diagram of the fingerboard.
Composers writing for guitar without being guitarists themselves - I
think that's amazing. Ponce didn't play himself but worked closely with
Segovia and Segovia did some substantial changes to the music, as I
gather. I'm curious as to what was the case with Moreno-Torroba - did he
manage composing for the guitar without much of Segovias help? And then
there's Walton and Berkley, they didn't play neither, right? Wonder of
it's obvious in their music.
Olof
David Raleigh Arnold
You'll like this answer even less--play the F-sharp. daveA
David Raleigh Arnold
I'm glad we had this little talk. daveA
Norm Phlankist
"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:d4-dneds36v...@texas.net...
TonyMor...@hotmail.com
Norm Phlankist wrote:
> What a joke, try some Bach.
>
Bach always is a nice workout, and the payoff makes it worth the
effort. Some pieces are really difficult, and then you wonder why you
put yourself through that misery.
I once played a piece for guitar and tape at an electronic music
festival, and it was really hard to read- serialized rhythm and
pitches. Basically, it was sheer memorization of chaos. I put in a lot
of hours on that piece, just for one performance, but it was a good
challenge.
Eliot Carter's "Changes" is similar in that it is memorization of a
chaos in the shape of a huge arch form, but it is a much better piece.
I like David Starobin's first recording of that piece more than his
second recording of it, even though the second is a bit more accurate
to the score. But he captures the moment better in the first.
Just random "technically tough" pieces: Granados' "Valses Poeticos"
(at tempo), Sergio Assad's " Aquarelle", Koshkin's "Andante Quasi
Passacaglie e tocatta", Rak's "Homage to Sibelius". Rodrigo's
"Aranjuez" concerto is certainly up there, too. Bach's "Chaconne" is an
obvious choice, but I don't think it is as 'bone-crushingly difficult'
as other pieces- it's just that is the gold standard by which we judge
the musicianship of ourselves and others, so the stakes are higher.
Tony
PBM
> The hardest of Segovia's greatest hits is usually considered to be
> Torre Bermeja. That's only from the ones he played a lot, mind.
>
> Some of Tarrega's arrangements of Chopin are very difficult. The
> hardest--? There are more coming all the time. daveA
No one agrees with me that Invocacion y Danza by Rodrigo is extremely
difficult? Maybe I should go back to it!
Peter Inglis - TWG
It's difficult!
--
Regards,
Peter Inglis - www.thewholeguitarist.com
-- email: pe...@thewholeguitarist.com
-- Read "Guitar Playing and How it Works"...
-- A new terminology and approach to the guitar based
-- on principles of the Alexander Technique and dance.
-- Videos of my guitar playing at www.thewholeguitarist.com/listen.htm
Norm Phlankist
<TonyMor...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106205831....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Norm Phlankist
"William Jennings" <jou...@texas.net> wrote in message
news:BdGdnY2TzIu...@texas.net...
paul c
wrote:
I've read elsewhere that this particular Danza is considered
to be very difficult. Liona Boyd stated the most difficult piece for
her was the chaconne. Me I sometimes have a hard time with Adelita :)
paul
PBM
>
> paul
I bait you *nail* "Lágrima"!
PBM
Dick Grayson
>Are there any classical guitar songs that are extremely hard and able
>to only be played by someone who has been playing for a very long time?
>I am not referring to a song that requires a lot of speed but hard
>fingerings or very hard rhythms. (hell, practically any song can be
>made very hard if you want to double the tempo or play it in a
>different medium; say SRV's little wing on a 12 string)
Yes there are songs harder than others to play, but
I would offer this: A piece that is difficult
is no more difficult than the capacity to which you play
your easiest piece. That is, for one person their easy piece may
be an etude by Regondi, another would be a modest etude by
Sor. Different stages of learning invite different
stages of perceived difficulty. So perhaps you might want
to question "what pieces do I play the most natural?"in order to
achieve a starting point for your answer on this. And, most
importantly you learn different things from each easy & hard pieces,
both have their intrinsic values. Also there is the theory that the
piece you work on in the moment presents the most challenge, because
you are focusing all your energies upon it at that time.
Having said that, some pieces I know for the solo repertoire,
Castelnuovo-Tedesco's Caprichos de Goya and Wolfgang Lendle's
Carmen variations, or Paganini caprice transcriptions come to
mind as exceedingly challenging pieces for any student or master
to convey with sincerity. And do not discount the most deceptive,
the seemingly most simple pieces can present challenges in
ways one cannot conceive of when compared to a finger busting etude.
The important thing is to convey the music in every piece
irregardless of it's difficulties. Also, there are pieces
that present difficulties for different goals, variables like
you mentioned 12 strings, versus 6 or 7 or 10. Also right or
left hand studies, solo or accompanied repertoire, fast or slow
rhythms, etc. etc. The list is endless to the dedicated student
of the guitar. Finding a teacher who can help you with this can
be an important if not essential step to finding out what your
limitations may or may not be.
gimme_this...@yahoo.com
I enjoy reading intelligent posts.
Andrew Schulman
Andrew
John Oster
refer to instrumental music as a piece or work.
If one limits the discussion to original guitar pieces, there are numerous
20th/21st century pieces that are viciously difficult, such as Berio's
"Sequenza" and Maw's "Music of Memory," not to mention the works that Klaus
listed. If we include transcriptions, then any number of pieces occur to
me: Bach keyboard works, such as various partitas and The Goldberg
Variations, or absurd orchestral pieces such as Pictures at an Exhibition
or The Firebird Suite certainly stand out. And yes, Invocation Y Danza is
tough, too! (But it pales next to those other pieces I mentioned.)
Mark
But a fun thing.
Mark