Julian Arcas

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Angelo Gilardino

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May 24, 2003, 6:00:33 AM5/24/03
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I have just finished to read the fresh book "El guitarrista Julian Arcas
(1832-1882)/Una biografia documental" written by Javier Suarez-Pajares and
Eusebio Rioja Vazquez.
A fine example of how a rather dark time in the history of the guitar can be
illuminated by the results of a thorough research, scholarly written. All
those who are interested to understand who actually was Arcas and what he
did, and how he did it, will find in this book a clear path through a series
of documents and news. I strongly recommend the volume.

Incidentally - a minor point. So far, it was believed that Tarrega copied
from Arcas the "Jota Aragonesa",, but with adding an introduction of his
own. The authors have discovered that also such an introduction was
plagiarized by Tarrega from another work and author: "Recuerdos de Palma" by
José Viñas (1886-1888).

AG

Antuco

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May 24, 2003, 12:10:42 PM5/24/03
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Angelo:

Sounds very interesting. Where can we purchase this book ?
Who is the publisher ? I presume that it is written in Spanish. Therefore is
the publisher in Spain?

Regards,

Antuco


"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote in message
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Angelo Gilardino

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May 24, 2003, 11:10:25 AM5/24/03
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"Antuco" <ant...@bellsouth.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> Angelo:
>
> Sounds very interesting. Where can we purchase this book ?
> Who is the publisher ? I presume that it is written in Spanish. Therefore
is
> the publisher in Spain?
>
> Regards,
>
> Antuco

Yes, it is written in Spanish. The Publisher is: Instituto de Estudios
Almerienses, Diputacion de Almeria, ISBN 84-8108-273-2.

AG


Matanya Ophee

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May 24, 2003, 12:32:50 PM5/24/03
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote:

>
>Incidentally - a minor point. So far, it was believed that Tarrega copied
>from Arcas the "Jota Aragonesa",, but with adding an introduction of his
>own. The authors have discovered that also such an introduction was
>plagiarized by Tarrega from another work and author: "Recuerdos de Palma" by
>José Viñas (1886-1888).

The plot thickens!


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com

Arturo

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May 24, 2003, 6:54:54 PM5/24/03
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote in message news:<5pHza.237964$K35.5...@news2.tin.it>...

> Incidentally - a minor point. So far, it was believed that Tarrega copied
> from Arcas the "Jota Aragonesa",, but with adding an introduction of his
> own. The authors have discovered that also such an introduction was
> plagiarized by Tarrega from another work and author: "Recuerdos de Palma" by
> José Viñas (1886-1888).
>
> AG

Interesting, so, you're saying that the book states this incidence of
plagiarism by Tarrega? This is not the first time I've heard it
claimed that Tarrega was a plagiarist -- there was a thread here, a
few weeks ago, questioning the origin of "Recuerdos", etc -- What are
your views on the subject of Tarrega being a plagiarist? Is there
evidence of other instances? Should we just assume that Tarrega was a
thief, with no real talent for composing his own pieces, then?
Arturo

Tony Morris

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May 25, 2003, 12:16:01 AM5/25/03
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Gm...@AOL.com (Arturo) wrote in message news:<923968f5.0305...@posting.google.com>...

One of Tarrega's students/patrons was a British guy, a Dr. Leakey
(sp?), who paid Tarrega money for his music and his arrangements of
pieces that Tarrega performed. Tarrega wrote down what he thought that
Dr. Leakey would like. One of these pieces was "Grand Jota", which had
long been thought to have been a Tarrega composition, but is actually
a Julian Arcas piece.

Did Tarrega intend to "steal" Julian Arcas' music by writing down an
arrangement for a student? - a piece that was not intended for
publication, but rather for the eyes of one person only?

Doubtful.

But, we tend to judge people of the past by current standards.
Therefore, right or wrong, poor Francisco Tarrega is now held
accountable by 21st Century standards of copyright law, and is
admonished for being a scoundrel.- For supposedly "stealing" Julian
Arcas's music. It's sort of like the local guitar teacher writing out
the tablature to "Stairway to Heaven", and then some scholar two
centuries from now asserting the the guitar teacher was claiming to
have composed the piece.

Hardly.

{Disclaimer: while this may appear to be common sense, it is only my
opinion}

Tony Morris
Classical Guitar Alive!
Coming to PBS television stations nation-wide!

Angelo Gilardino

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May 25, 2003, 12:22:10 AM5/25/03
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"Arturo" <Gm...@AOL.com> ha scritto nel messaggio

> Interesting, so, you're saying that the book states this incidence of
> plagiarism by Tarrega?

Yes, the book does this, and it is not a statement, it is a demostration.


> This is not the first time I've heard it
> claimed that Tarrega was a plagiarist -- there was a thread here, a
> few weeks ago, questioning the origin of "Recuerdos", etc --

Nobody has so far demonstrated that this is not an original composition by
Tarrega. I have never suggested it is not, and I have discouraged those who
maintained it was derivated from Bizet romanza (from "Les pecheurs de
perles"), because there is only a similarity in the first measures of the
melody.


> What are
> your views on the subject of Tarrega being a plagiarist? Is there
> evidence of other instances?

My views are obvious. Tarrega used some pieces he took from other authors.
He copied those pieces by his own hand for his own use and for the use of
his students and aficionados, and it is out of question that on those
manuscripts he missed to report the name of their authors. After his death,
some of his followers - who were not cultivated musicians - sent to print
everything found in Tarrega's handwriting as an original work of his, thus
making much heavier the consequences of his behaviour toward the authorship
of those works which he copied. These are unquestionable facts, and
unquestionable are also the damages that composers like Arcas, Schumann,
Garcia Tolsa, Vinas, have reported from Tarrega's and his student's action.
The fact that Tarrega did not publish the Jota Aragonesa or the Fantasia on
La Traviata under his own name does not make him free from responsibility,
because he performed those works in his concerts under his own autorship,
whilst they were Arcas' products.

> Should we just assume that Tarrega was a
> thief, with no real talent for composing his own pieces, then?

We should assume that in order to achieve merits as a composer one does
enough with writing and publishing his own works - as Tarrega unquestionably
did with composing his own nice pieces - and that he has no need of using
other composer's works with missing the names of their authors - as Tarrega
unquestionably and regrettably did.

AG

Angelo Gilardino

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May 25, 2003, 12:31:31 AM5/25/03
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"Tony Morris" <TonyMor...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> One of Tarrega's students/patrons was a British guy, a Dr. Leakey
> (sp?), who paid Tarrega money for his music and his arrangements of
> pieces that Tarrega performed. Tarrega wrote down what he thought that
> Dr. Leakey would like. One of these pieces was "Grand Jota", which had
> long been thought to have been a Tarrega composition, but is actually
> a Julian Arcas piece.
>
> Did Tarrega intend to "steal" Julian Arcas' music by writing down an
> arrangement for a student? - a piece that was not intended for
> publication, but rather for the eyes of one person only?

> But, we tend to judge people of the past by current standards.
> Therefore, right or wrong, poor Francisco Tarrega is now held
> accountable by 21st Century standards of copyright law, and is
> admonished for being a scoundrel.- For supposedly "stealing" Julian
> Arcas's music. It's sort of like the local guitar teacher writing out
> the tablature to "Stairway to Heaven", and then some scholar two
> centuries from now asserting the the guitar teacher was claiming to
> have composed the piece.

This is untrue. Tarrega used to perform the Jota Aragonesa, as well as other
Arcas' works, in his own concerts, with giving them his own autorship in the
programs. No matter by which standard of which epoque such a behaviour is
judged, it is unacceptable.


AG


Sarn Dyer

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May 25, 2003, 10:38:02 AM5/25/03
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Angelo Gilardino wrote:

> This is untrue. Tarrega used to perform the Jota Aragonesa, as well as other
> Arcas' works, in his own concerts, with giving them his own autorship in the
> programs. No matter by which standard of which epoque such a behaviour is
> judged, it is unacceptable.
>

It does seem to be looking bad for the reputation of Pujol's 'Saint
Francisco'. Certainly, Tárrega's, erm...unrestrained 'Variations on
Carnival of Venice' are sufficiently of the same genre to make his
authorship of the Gran Jota appear seemingly plausible. To have stolen
Arcas' music would have been extraordinarily disrespectful to another
composer whom Tárrega must have admired and who was only 22 years his
senior. Was Arcas still alive when Tárrega was performing the piece
under his own name? What are the facts of the Arcas m.s.? Presumably
Daniel Benko worked from this for his edition.

Tárrega's first appearance in public is said to have been a performance
of a guitar concerto by Arcas. I've never seen an edition of this and
wonder if it is mentioned in this new book.

Best wishes,

Sarn Dyer

Matanya Ophee

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May 25, 2003, 12:06:28 PM5/25/03
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Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:

>Presumably
>Daniel Benko worked from this for his edition.

He did? I have been to his house in Budapest many times, and he never
mention this and never showed me anything along these lines. At one
point he gave me a free access to his entire music library from which
I copied a lot of materials. Never saw this. I'll have to ask him
about that.


>
>Tárrega's first appearance in public is said to have been a performance
>of a guitar concerto by Arcas. I've never seen an edition of this and
>wonder if it is mentioned in this new book.

Said where? I must have missed this one. I ordered the new book, but
it has not arrived yet.

Matanya Ophee

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May 25, 2003, 12:20:08 PM5/25/03
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TonyMor...@hotmail.com (Tony Morris) wrote:

>
>One of Tarrega's students/patrons was a British guy, a Dr. Leakey
>(sp?),

Strange fellow. Walter Ja. Leckie. A British military doctor who spent
a considerable amount of time in South America and India. Moser gives
quite a bit of information about him, including a copy of the entry
for him in the British medical records.

Angelo Gilardino

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May 26, 2003, 2:10:06 AM5/26/03
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"Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> Angelo Gilardino wrote:
>
> > This is untrue. Tarrega used to perform the Jota Aragonesa, as well as
other
> > Arcas' works, in his own concerts, with giving them his own autorship in
the
> > programs. No matter by which standard of which epoque such a behaviour
is
> > judged, it is unacceptable.
> >
>
> It does seem to be looking bad for the reputation of Pujol's 'Saint
> Francisco'. Certainly, Tárrega's, erm...unrestrained 'Variations on
> Carnival of Venice' are sufficiently of the same genre to make his
> authorship of the Gran Jota appear seemingly plausible. To have stolen
> Arcas' music would have been extraordinarily disrespectful to another
> composer whom Tárrega must have admired and who was only 22 years his
> senior. Was Arcas still alive when Tárrega was performing the piece
> under his own name? What are the facts of the Arcas m.s.? Presumably
> Daniel Benko worked from this for his edition.

The works by Julian Arcas - with the exception of some of them which are
missed, perhaps and regrettably for ever - are published in a volume by
Ediciones Soneto, Madrid.
This book containes reproduction of the 19th century publications.

> Tárrega's first appearance in public is said to have been a performance
> of a guitar concerto by Arcas. I've never seen an edition of this and
> wonder if it is mentioned in this new book.

Arcas did not write any Concerto - I mean, a Concerto for Guitar and
Orchestra. I am planning to write a version for Guitar and Orchestra of his
solo guitar piece entitled "El punto de la Habana/Fantasia sobre el Paño",
based upon the song employed by Manuel de Falla in the first of his "Siete
Canciones" for voice and piano, and used also by Mikhail Glinka.

AG

Matteo Contaldi

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May 26, 2003, 1:44:19 PM5/26/03
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At the End.......
What is original by Tarrega?

Thank You.

MATTEO


Angelo Gilardino

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May 26, 2003, 2:15:24 PM5/26/03
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"Matteo Contaldi" <mcon...@libero.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
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Several - not many - good pieces and a powerful legend.

AG


Sarn Dyer

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May 26, 2003, 4:13:59 PM5/26/03
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Matteo Contaldi wrote:
> At the End.......
> What is original by Tarrega?

I'm finding this question regarding the true authorship of the Gran Jota
rather confusing. Although I don't have the Arcas score and this is
hardly the best way to conduct research,there is a c.6 minute midi
(seemingly described as a fragment) of the Arcas piece at:

http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid

Assuming that this is the piece referred to, it appears to have little
or nothing in common with the Tárrega work other than the folk music of
Aragon which, of course, has endless variations on the Jota. It's also a
comparatively inferior work.

Would anyone else having the Tárrega score like to compare it with this
midi?

Sarn Dyer

Angelo Gilardino

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May 26, 2003, 4:49:59 PM5/26/03
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"Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
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No confusion, all is clear. A comparative reading of the two scores shows
that Arcas was the author of the setting of the "Jota Aragonesa" which
Tarrega used as a basic reference for his own setting, which is richer and
larger, but unquestionably in a debt toward Arcas. Here it is not a matter
of which version is better, but of how fair and correct Tarrega has been
toward Arcas - the man who revealed the guitar to him! We learn now, from
the book written by Suarez-Pajares and Rioja, that not even the introduction
(not existing in Arcas) is a fruit of Tarrega's pen, because it is taken
from Viñas. It is surprising: I announced the publication of a major study
which makes justice to the work of an author - Arcas - whose importance in
the history of the guitar has been so far underestimated or ignored at all,
and only incidentally I referred the observations the writers did about
Tarrega, but all the discussion here goes on about Tarrega. God, for having
written two dozens of short guitar pieces he has got more literature than
Brahms!

AG


Sarn Dyer

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May 26, 2003, 5:31:02 PM5/26/03
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Angelo Gilardino wrote:

> "Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio

>>I'm finding this question regarding the true authorship of the Gran Jota
>>rather confusing. Although I don't have the Arcas score and this is
>>hardly the best way to conduct research,there is a c.6 minute midi
>>(seemingly described as a fragment) of the Arcas piece at:
>>
>>http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid
>>
>>Assuming that this is the piece referred to, it appears to have little
>>or nothing in common with the Tárrega work other than the folk music of
>>Aragon which, of course, has endless variations on the Jota. It's also a
>>comparatively inferior work.
>>
>>Would anyone else having the Tárrega score like to compare it with this
>>midi?

> No confusion, all is clear. A comparative reading of the two scores shows


> that Arcas was the author of the setting of the "Jota Aragonesa" which
> Tarrega used as a basic reference for his own setting, which is richer and
> larger, but unquestionably in a debt toward Arcas.

On the evidence of the midi in question, I must differ substantially
with Angelo's assessment. I have no doubt that Tárrega knew Arcas' Jota
but the two pieces are totally different.Is Angelo saying that there was
'a debt' or that Tárrega stole this work and fraudulently performed it
under his own name?

> We learn now, from
> the book written by Suarez-Pajares and Rioja, that not even the introduction
> (not existing in Arcas) is a fruit of Tarrega's pen, because it is taken
> from Viñas.

Well, let us deal with one thing at a time. If the same authors are
saying that Tárrega stole the Jota from Arcas, this is not, on the above
evidence, very re-assuring.

I wonder if Stanley Yates would like to give an opinion on the
similarities between the two pieces?

Sarn Dyer

Matanya Ophee

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May 26, 2003, 5:57:07 PM5/26/03
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Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:

>
>On the evidence of the midi in question, I must differ substantially
>with Angelo's assessment.

I just listened to the midi in question, with the original score in
hand, practicing Alain Reiher's sight reading exercise. For what it's
worth, Señor Jesus de Las Heras did a pretty good job of duplicating
the score in MIDI. Now what you need to do, is get the _score_
yourself, and compare it to the score of Tarrega.

> I have no doubt that Tárrega knew Arcas' Jota
>but the two pieces are totally different.Is Angelo saying that there was
>'a debt' or that Tárrega stole this work and fraudulently performed it
>under his own name?

That's exactly what he is saying and when you compare the two scores,
you will have to come to the same conclusion.

Angelo Gilardino

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May 26, 2003, 10:27:38 PM5/26/03
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"Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> Angelo Gilardino wrote:

> On the evidence of the midi in question, I must differ substantially
> with Angelo's assessment. I have no doubt that Tárrega knew Arcas' Jota
> but the two pieces are totally different.Is Angelo saying that there was
> 'a debt' or that Tárrega stole this work and fraudulently performed it
> under his own name?

I have not written a book about Arcas, I have reported of it and I would
have not referred to the Tarrega-Jota affair if I would not feel in tune
with the writers.
"...De hecho, como veremos mas adelante, la brillantisima y celebre
introduccion en Mi menor de la Jota atribuida generalmente a Tarrega - que
es poco de una expansion de la jota original de Arcas - tampoco es original
de Tarrega, sino un plagio de la introduccion del capricho guitarristico
"Recuerdos de Palma", un tremolo en La mayor publicado en 1868 por José
Viñas Diaz (1823.1888), contemporaneo y hombre cercano a Arcas". (pag. 29).

[Actually, as we will see in the following, not even the very brilliant and
celebrated introduction in E minor of the Jota generally assigned to
Tarrega - which is little more than an expansion of the Jota by Arcas - is
original by Tarrega, but it is a plagiarism of the introducion of the guitar
capricho "Recuerdos de Palma", a tremolo in A major published on 1868 by
José Viñas Diaz (1823.1868), a contemporary and a close person to Arcas".

Also "La Murciana - Fantasia de aires nacionales " by Arcas was copied by
Tarrega - with some adjustment in the form - and published under his name on
1927.

> Well, let us deal with one thing at a time. If the same authors are
> saying that Tárrega stole the Jota from Arcas, this is not, on the above
> evidence, very re-assuring.

Yes, of the fact that Tarrega and his band deserve shame for what they did
to Arcas and other authors. I wish to you - as to a composer - of never
passing by the same experience Arcas enjoyed thank to these gentlemen.

AG

Arturo

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May 26, 2003, 10:52:22 PM5/26/03
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"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote in message news:<X5vAa.255932$K35.6...@news2.tin.it>...

> and only incidentally I referred the observations the writers did about
> Tarrega, but all the discussion here goes on about Tarrega. God, for having
> written two dozens of short guitar pieces he has got more literature than
> Brahms!
>
> AG

I agree, but if his popularity is not deserved, then this is all the
more reason why it is important to discredit him (if, indeed, he is a
fraud) -- there is no more offensive crime, in my eyes, than stealing
the work of others (dead or alive). It is very important to get at
the truth.
Arturo

Angelo Gilardino

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May 27, 2003, 1:53:28 AM5/27/03
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"Arturo" <Gm...@AOL.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
> I agree, but if his popularity is not deserved, then this is all the
> more reason why it is important to discredit him (if, indeed, he is a
> fraud) -- there is no more offensive crime, in my eyes, than stealing
> the work of others (dead or alive). It is very important to get at
> the truth.
> Arturo

Arcas wrote his own works. Then, a few of them - either almost literally,
like the "Fantasia on La Traviata", or expanded, like the "Jota Aragonesa",
or modified in their form, like the "Murciana " ("Cartagenera" in Tarrega's
copy) - were played and published under the name of Francisco Tarrega.
Tarrega was also given author's credit for other pieces - like the Tango
"Maria" or the "Oremus" - which were written by other authors (Garcia Tolsa
and Schumann). We learn now that also the Introduction of his version of the
Jota Aragonesa was copied from Viñas. This is the truth, unquestionably
placed under our eyes.

How would have it been possible to avoid to damage the true authors of the
pieces which he copied? Simply, by doing as Arcas did: with mentioning the
author's name in the title of his work ("Sueno de Rosellen",) or Llobet
did when expanding Sor's Variations on "La Follia" (he entitled them:
Variaciones sobre un tema de Sor). I have expanded the "Gran Solo" by Sor in
a version for guitar and string trio and, more recently, the "Sonata
Romantica" by Ponce in a version for cello and guitar: all of this evidence
is given in the titles, of course! Shame to all those who violate autorship,
even if they are - as in the case of Tarrega - good composers of their own
good music.

AG


Sarn Dyer

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May 27, 2003, 7:09:13 AM5/27/03
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I can only repeat that it is simply not possible to claim that Tárrega's
Jota is an 'expansion' of Arcas' composition on the evidence of the midi at:

http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid

Does Angelo have any direct connection with the authors of the book he
has mentioned and from which he has quoted? Are we talking here of one
opinion or of three?

The Jota is Aragon's most famous folk dance. There are innumerable
versions of its accompaniment and many arrangements of it.

I will be happy to provide a full analysis of the two pieces. However,
this would be so entirely superfluous that there would be little point
other than to include it in a future article on the perils of going to
an extreme in revisionism.

>I wish to you - as to a composer - of never
>passing by the same experience Arcas enjoyed thank to these gentlemen.
>
>
>

Alas, this has already happened to me. I can very well imagine the
feelings of others who have suffered the same, but I do not see
plagiarism where none exists.

Sarn Dyer

Angelo Gilardino

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May 27, 2003, 7:32:28 AM5/27/03
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"Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
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> I can only repeat that it is simply not possible to claim that Tárrega's
> Jota is an 'expansion' of Arcas' composition on the evidence of the midi
at:
>
> http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid

I share the judgement of the authors of the book on Arcas upon the evidence
of the text of the two works, which I have from longtime, and not upon the
evidence of any midi file.

> Does Angelo have any direct connection with the authors of the book he
> has mentioned and from which he has quoted? Are we talking here of one
> opinion or of three?

I have a very good and a friendly connection with both the authors of the
book, even because of their previous contribution to the history of the
guitar. Javier Suarez-Pajares is a professor of musicology at Madrid
University (Complutense), and he is one of the few professional
musicologists all over the world to have also a background as a guitarist.
Eusebio Rioja is one of the most qualified scholars of the flamenco. I share
their judgement of what Tarrega did as a plagiarism. So, here we have
different sources for the same judgement. In what I have written here, I
have not confused their judgements with mine: it happens they coincide.


> The Jota is Aragon's most famous folk dance. There are innumerable
> versions of its accompaniment and many arrangements of it.
> I will be happy to provide a full analysis of the two pieces. However,
> this would be so entirely superfluous that there would be little point
> other than to include it in a future article on the perils of going to
> an extreme in revisionism.

Each reader of this ng and each reader all over the world has a chance to
pick up his/her own judgement: all the works in question (not only the Jota
Aragonesa) are available in print from longtime, and whether the Tarrega's
versions are the works of an original thought which deserves to be labelled
with his autorship, or not, is a question to which everybody here can
provide his/her own answer. I spoke for myself, and I added my witness to a
list of preceding judgements already expressed by other scholars about
Tarrega's integrity when coming to the use he did of other composer's works.
I have nothing against Tarrega, but I cannot tolerate the fact that a part -
even a minor one - of his glory is founded upon plagiarism. I share the
choice of Dr. Suarez-Pajares and of Dr. Rioja, to publish in their book a
list with the names of all those performers who have recorded Arcas'
Fantasia on La Traviata as a work of Tarrega.

AG


Sarn Dyer

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May 27, 2003, 8:35:54 AM5/27/03
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Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> "Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:3ED34759...@lineone.net...
>
>>I can only repeat that it is simply not possible to claim that Tárrega's
>>Jota is an 'expansion' of Arcas' composition on the evidence of the midi
>
> at:
>
>>http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid

Has Angelo verified that the midi file is of the Arcas Jota? If it is,
then Tárrega's version would not even qualify as 'an expansion'.

Has Angelo discussed his belief about Tárrega's plagiarism of Arcas'
Jota with these authors?

I'm rather disinclined to invest in Arcas' inferior composition to so
little point, and look forward to hearing others' views on the alleged
similarity between the two pieces.

Sarn Dyer

Angelo Gilardino

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May 27, 2003, 8:51:40 AM5/27/03
to

"Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3ED35BAA...@lineone.net...

> Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> > "Sarn Dyer" <sd...@lineone.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> > news:3ED34759...@lineone.net...
> >
> >>I can only repeat that it is simply not possible to claim that Tárrega's
> >>Jota is an 'expansion' of Arcas' composition on the evidence of the midi
> >
> > at:
> >
> >>http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid
>
> Has Angelo verified that the midi file is of the Arcas Jota? If it is,
> then Tárrega's version would not even qualify as 'an expansion'.

No need of doing this. I have the text, and this is enough.


>
> Has Angelo discussed his belief about Tárrega's plagiarism of Arcas'
> Jota with these authors?

No, I didn't, thought I could do this in any moment if I would see any
utility in such a discussion, but I do not: what they say is coincident with
what I believe.


>
> I'm rather disinclined to invest in Arcas' inferior composition to so
> little point, and look forward to hearing others' views on the alleged
> similarity between the two pieces.

Agree. Of course, Tarrega's behaviour can't be judged only from the reading
of one of his "uses" of Arcas' (or other composer's) pieces:
one has to consider all of his "uses": Traviata, Cartagenera, Oremus,
Introduction of Jota Aragonesa, Preludio (de Fossa), etc. etc.

Sorry to have missed from your preceding message the news of the plagiarism
you suffered: you have all my simpathy.

AG


Richard Yates

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May 27, 2003, 9:28:45 AM5/27/03
to
For those without the score and for convenient comparison, use this link to
the Tarrega version:

http://www.classicalguitarmidi.com/Tarrega_Gran_Jota.mid

>> http://aliso.cnice.mecd.es/~jheras1/laj-2.mid (Arcas)

Matanya Ophee

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May 27, 2003, 10:35:52 AM5/27/03
to
Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:

>
>I will be happy to provide a full analysis of the two pieces. However,
>this would be so entirely superfluous that there would be little point
>other than to include it in a future article on the perils of going to
>an extreme in revisionism.

Not at all. If nothing else, such an article would help you to
understand who did what, and with which, and to whom. Of course, I
assume you will be comparing not a score to a MIDI recording, but
three separate scores: those of Viñas, Arcas and Tarrega. Looking
forward to your analysis.

Matanya Ophee

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May 27, 2003, 10:58:07 AM5/27/03
to
Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:

>
>I'm rather disinclined to invest in Arcas' inferior composition to so
>little point, and look forward to hearing others' views on the alleged
>similarity between the two pieces.

You put the issue is perspective, by including _your_ personal
evaluation of the comparative worth of the two versions, as a factor
in deciding authorship. That is not how things work out in the real
world. There is no question that Luigi Mozzani's 1906 version of Feste
Lariane is a far better composition that either the 1906 version of
the same by Jose Sancho, or the 1889 Peruvian Air by Luis T. Romero.
You can evaluate all three versions right here:

http://www.orphee.com/festa/festa.htm

It is still plagiarism.

Consider that in today's legal situation, it is enough for a
plagiarist to take as little as four bars from a composition by
another, to be slapped with a law suit. Right now, I am confronted
with a wonderful composition for guitar which is based on a theme by
Alban Berg, and which, unfortunately, reproduces verbatim more than
four bars of the original. The only way I can do this legally, is by
obtaining a permission from the Berg estate to use the theme. The same
thing happened when I published M.D. Pujol's Variaciones Sobre un tema
de Atahualpa Yupanqui. I agreed to publish it, only after Maximo got
all four sons of Yupanqui to agree.

Obviously, copyright laws in Spain in the late 19th century were
different. But laws are based on the moral conditions of the time. If
we think, today, that it is immoral to quote more than four bars of
someone else's work and publish it as your own, than we have no other
choice but apply the same moral judgment to plagiarisms of the past.

yat...@apsu.edu

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May 27, 2003, 12:00:44 PM5/27/03
to
On Mon, 26 May 2003 22:31:02 +0100, Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net>
wrote:

>Well, let us deal with one thing at a time. If the same authors are
>saying that Tárrega stole the Jota from Arcas, this is not, on the above
>evidence, very re-assuring.
>
>I wonder if Stanley Yates would like to give an opinion on the
>similarities between the two pieces?

Comparing the two original editions, I would say that about a dozen of
Tarrega's 30 variations are clearly based on those of Arcas (whose
version has only about half as many variations). Listening to the midi
file, I can see that this may not be entirely obvious; the order of
events is different and many passages sound quite different to a real
performance. Looking at the scores, there's really no doubt about it.

I would characterize the version published under Tarrega's name as an
elaboration of the Arcas original in which an introduction was added,
and additonal variations were incoprarated. Some of Arcas variations
form the basis for an elaborated variation; some are almost
note-for-note quotes, often using specific fingering systems not
discernable from the midi file.

Ultimately, the two pieces are different works - with the Tarrega
version quite superior to the Arcas - but there's just too much of the
Arcas there (about 40%) for the attribution to be simply Tarrega.

In the case of the Traviata Fantasie, I would say the the Tarrega
piece is %95 Arcas!

One caveat, the early edition of Tarrega's Jota variations - published
by Ildefonso Alier in 1909, the year of Tarrega's death - is
attributed:

Por Fco. TARREGA / (Revisanda por su discipulo Daniel Fortea)

I don't suppose we know what Tarrega actually played in his concerts.

All the best,

Stanley


Stanley Yates
http://www.StanleyYates.com

Doug Cummings

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May 27, 2003, 1:23:49 PM5/27/03
to
Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<18u6dv8pmqpt64au1...@4ax.com>...
> Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
<<Snip.. lot's of good stiff>>
>
> Obviously, copyright laws in Spain in the late 19th century were
> different. But laws are based on the moral conditions of the time. If
> we think, today, that it is immoral to quote more than four bars of
> someone else's work and publish it as your own, than we have no other
> choice but apply the same moral judgment to plagiarisms of the past.
>
>
MO,
Is this last statement true? As people doing historical research
should we judge those we study by the morals of their time or ours? In
our time Thomas Jefferson would have been a child molester in his time
he was a gentleman exercising his property rights. Does anyone in the
thread or NG know what was considered moral for the use of another's
music, in the manner described above, in 19th century Spain?

Regards,
Doug

Sarn Dyer

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May 27, 2003, 1:40:52 PM5/27/03
to
yat...@apsu.edu wrote:
> I would characterize the version published under Tarrega's name as an
> elaboration of the Arcas original in which an introduction was added,
> and additonal variations were incoprarated. Some of Arcas variations
> form the basis for an elaborated variation; some are almost
> note-for-note quotes, often using specific fingering systems not
> discernable from the midi file.

As I stated at the start, a midi file is certainly not ideal for making
a comparison and similarities may indeed, be more evident from the
score. The problem with Stanley's assessment for me, is that *all* the
very numerous versions of the traditional Jota are elaborations of each
other, essentially improvisations on a simple rhythm and chordal
structure. This is very common in Spanish folk music and with such a
simple basis, it seems unlikely that accusations of plagiarism would
ever arise. The musical structure of a Jota usually consists of
contrasting variations, some more static, some more running, some in
semiquavers, some in triplets etc.. Comparing, for example, Larregla's
famous concert Jota 'ĄViva Navarra!' there are many similarities to both
Tárrega's and Arcas' pieces, but with such a simple structure, Larregla
had no need to plagiarise them, or anyone else.

There are also numerous Jota songs, Las flores de Zaragoza, La Fematera,
Ansotana, La Fiera and so on.

Perhaps we now need an expert in the Jota to give an opinion!

Sarn Dyer

Matanya Ophee

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May 27, 2003, 2:24:05 PM5/27/03
to
dcum...@yahoo.com (Doug Cummings) wrote:

>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<18u6dv8pmqpt64au1...@4ax.com>...
>> Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:
>>
><<Snip.. lot's of good stiff>>

Who's that?

>>
>> Obviously, copyright laws in Spain in the late 19th century were
>> different. But laws are based on the moral conditions of the time. If
>> we think, today, that it is immoral to quote more than four bars of
>> someone else's work and publish it as your own, than we have no other
>> choice but apply the same moral judgment to plagiarisms of the past.
>>
>>
>MO,
>Is this last statement true? As people doing historical research
>should we judge those we study by the morals of their time or ours?

As one who is doing historical research all the time, the question is
very relevant. The only reason people were able to plagiarize at the
time, is not because it was an OK thing to do, but because they could
get away with it. By the time Tarrega died in 1909, there were
probably no descendants of Julian Arcas who could do anything about
it, or if they were, that cared enough about the issue to kick up a
fuss. If you want to get an idea of what copyright was like in the
18th century, read Berlioz' Les Soirées de l'Orchestre and look up his
discussion of Charles de Marescot, the Guitaromanie guy.

The great majority of the guitar works of Tarrega were published
posthumously. As Stanley pointed out, this one was "revised" by Daniel
Fortea. Do we know exactly what kind of revision was made by Fortea?
and what was the material he was revising?

I am afraid we do not. As point of reference: the Chanterelle
facsimile of this is a reproduction of the original Ildefonso Alier
edition which comes from _my_ collection. In his edition, Melchor
Rodriguez gives two versions, based as he says, on two separate
mansucripts, which he does not identify. For all I know, he could have
made the whole thing up, as so could Fortea. In short, it does not
matter if the theft was made by Tarrega himself or by any of his
followers and apologists. The reputation of Julian Arcas was damaged
either way.

When is the last time you heard in concert music by Arcas?

> In
>our time Thomas Jefferson would have been a child molester in his time
>he was a gentleman exercising his property rights.

Irrelevant. In our time genocide is a great evil. But we do look the
other way whehn it is more convenient, and we treat the several
genocides described in the Bible as the Word of God.

> Does anyone in the
>thread or NG know what was considered moral for the use of another's
>music, in the manner described above, in 19th century Spain?

Why Spain alone? In his Variations on Nel Cor Piu, Nikolai Petrovich
Makarov included one variation, complete with no changes, from the set
of Variations by Johann Kaspar Mertz. I published the Makarov in
Soundboard in 1982.

In 1817, Mauro Giuliani published a set of six preludes, his Op. 83,
which are a direct rip-off of the Six Excercises op. 27 by Antoine de
Lhoyer, published earlier, in 1812, for the 5 string guitar.

In 1817, Lhoyer was back in France, and an officer in the French Army.
The Giuliani rip-off must have been known to him, since it was
republished in France by Richault. Did he do anything about it at the
time? Was he paid and asked to shut up? did his military career
prevent him from pursuing a civil suit? who knows?

A few years earlier, one fellow named Marechal did go to court and
sued both Ignac Pleyel and Jean-Baptiste Phillis for stealing from him
the design of the lyre guitar. You can read in the Devriès-Lesure
Dictionary of French publishers about the many law suits for
plagiarism and other offences ion the publishing trade that were
conducted in France in the 19th century. There is no reason to believe
that in other countries in Europe the situation was much different,
and there may be many different reasons why we do not know about it
today.

Matanya Ophee

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May 27, 2003, 4:57:46 PM5/27/03
to
Sarn Dyer <sd...@lineone.net> wrote:

>
>As I stated at the start, a midi file is certainly not ideal for making
>a comparison and similarities may indeed, be more evident from the
>score. The problem with Stanley's assessment for me, is that *all* the
>very numerous versions of the traditional Jota are elaborations of each
>other, essentially improvisations on a simple rhythm and chordal
>structure. This is very common in Spanish folk music and with such a
>simple basis, it seems unlikely that accusations of plagiarism would
>ever arise.

Except that in this case, as stanley already pointed out, what is
plagiarized is not the tune or the rhythmical structure, but actual
entire variations, including their fingerings. And as long as the
Tárrega piece includes the _Introduction_ which is ripped off from
Viñas, and which has nothing to do with the Jota per se, and as long
as we are faced with all the _other_ rip offs practiced by Tárrega and
promoted by his disciples, there is no way of spin doctoring this out
of here.


>Perhaps we now need an expert in the Jota to give an opinion!

The Jota entry in the new Diccionario de la Musica Española is 8.5
pages long and contains many musical examples, none of which look like
the theme of the Jota as used by Arcas and Tárrega. But they do
mention that the first use of the Jota in a classical composition was
its use by Mikhail Glinka, where, indeed, it is the same theme.
Glinka, as is well known, took it from some street musician named el
Murciano in 1845 or so.

But Glinka's elaboration of the same theme, done _before_ Arcas and
Tárrega, is not at all similar to them, which leaves us with the
notion that as far as the documental evidence tells us, the
_variations_ and they way they were fingered, plus all the special
effects of tambora, Imitacion Fagot, Tremolo, mano izquierda sola etc,
were lifted off from Arcas by Tárrega and presented as his own. case
closed.

Arturo

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May 27, 2003, 9:12:32 PM5/27/03
to
Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<b297dvcn6n6evc0h6...@4ax.com>...


> In 1817, Mauro Giuliani published a set of six preludes, his Op. 83,
> which are a direct rip-off of the Six Excercises op. 27 by Antoine de
> Lhoyer, published earlier, in 1812, for the 5 string guitar.
>
> In 1817, Lhoyer was back in France, and an officer in the French Army.
> The Giuliani rip-off must have been known to him, since it was
> republished in France by Richault. Did he do anything about it at the
> time? Was he paid and asked to shut up? did his military career
> prevent him from pursuing a civil suit? who knows?
>
> Matanya Ophee

Ha -- I find this really intriguing -- I've actually been
wondering why Giuliani's 6 preludes in Op. 83 stood out as
surprisingly good, in comparison to his other work (which I consider
to be mostly "crap"), and really had no compositional relation to his
other work -- Now, I know why ! He didn't write it -- he stole it!
This is very funny (actually, it's sad, for the real composer) --
these guys were wandering around ripping each other off, like crazy,
in the 19th century -- I've often wondered about a few other pieces of
other composers, that stand out as being "uncharacteristically good"
in comparison to their other work -- (we've already discussed
"Recuerdos", which is one of the suspect works) -- another one I find
suspect is Sor's Op.6, # 11 (the ever-popular Segovia Study # 17)--
it's too "uncharacteristically good" to be Sor's -- I suspect he
bought (or stole) it from Carcassi -- it is very much in the Carcassi
style -- just one of my "pet theories".
I'm finding this all very interesting.
Arturo

Arturo

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May 27, 2003, 9:39:52 PM5/27/03