Villa-Lobos a Cubist?
Bob Ashley
knew Picasso or Braque or if he was familiar with, or influenced by,
cubist art?
I wonder since my impressions of Villa-Lobos' etudes remind me not of the
Impressionist painters at all, but certainly they do of cubist art. It may
be the preponderance of parallel chord progressions and/or arpeggios, like
so many cubist 'shards'. Analytic. Like analytic cubism. Inviting multiple
viewing (listening) perspectives too.
Other elements of HVL's music seem more like cubist's montage or
'synthetic' phase. Well defined, almost 'cut out' phrases are 'pasted up'
to form larger intriguing musical shapes. Too, the guitar itself, was one
of Picasso's most enduring subjects.
Does this HVL/Picasso association of mine register at all for anyone
else, or is it rather simply an example of a Freudian dream of wish
fulfillment? Why do I love both artists as if they might have been soul
brothers?
Regards,
Rib
William Jennings
Italian Musica Classica has an essay on the life an music of Villa-Lobos by
Adriano Bassi:
.http://www.cesil.com/0998/enbass09.htm
wdj
.............................................................................................................................................................................
dave payne
Bob Ashley wrote:
> Villa Lobos spent some time in Paris, didn't he? Does anyone know if he
> knew Picasso or Braque or if he was familiar with, or influenced by,
> cubist art?
>
> I wonder since my impressions of Villa-Lobos' etudes remind me not of the
> Impressionist painters at all, but certainly they do of cubist art. It may
> be the preponderance of parallel chord progressions and/or arpeggios, like
> so many cubist 'shards'. Analytic. Like analytic cubism. Inviting multiple
> viewing (listening) perspectives too.
>
> Other elements of HVL's music seem more like cubist's montage or
> 'synthetic' phase. Well defined, almost 'cut out' phrases are 'pasted up'
> to form larger intriguing musical shapes. Too, the guitar itself, was one
> of Picasso's most enduring subjects.
>
> Does this HVL/Picasso association of mine register at all for anyone
> else, or is it rather simply an example of a Freudian dream of wish
> fulfillment? Why do I love both artists as if they might have been soul
> brothers?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rib
Way-back-when I used to exercise to Bream's 20th Century Guitar. I must have
listened to it a thousand times. When HVL's #5 came around it always reminded
me of Picasso. #7 did as well, but not as much. Yepes didn't give me the same
impression however. When Bream released his version of all 12 etudes the
Picasso
feeling was still there, but more subdued, even for #5.
Dave Payne
the...@interlog.com
Vivienne McLaughlin
bend, and leads me to visualize the cooly distant Mondrian and Malevich rather
than figurative geometric reduction of Leger / Braque, if I may. Also, a bit
of quirkiness in his style leads me to think he may have been influenced in
part by the Dada / Duchampian progeny. This movement seems to have had its
initial shock, and blossomed in coincidence with the time of VL's
establishment circa 1920 as a recognized composer.
Cubism reached its summit in the mid teens, and was reinvented by Picasso with
Les Demoiselles', whose stylistic hybrids with figurative expressionism
subsequently became his personal stamp. The Cubist / analytic trend gave way
to a surrealist, abstract / reductionism, whose impetus was set in motion by
Cubism, but quickly eclipses its popularity toward the end of the war. At VL's
rise to fame, the Cubist shards became the short lived Futurist's flat planes.
But the movement to greater reduction, both structurally and analytically, has
moved the subjects / themes in artwork into a more powerful entropy.
All this on the one hand, but I notice comoposers tend to be ten to twenty
years behind the rest of the artistic / literary community in terms of
expressing the zietgeist en vogue. Just look at Debussy and the so-called
"Impressionist" composers, who followed a tradition which peaked in the
1870's. The chief components of the Impressionist movement, save for Monet,
had drifted into the corner by the 1890's when Post Impressionism and German
Expressionsim began to take hold. This may explain why you may "hear" the
cubist structural philosophy echoed in the skeleton of Villa Lobos
compositions, although a more appropriate setting for VL would be among the
young existentialist writers and the surrealist / post-cubist crowd.
I'm almost positive I read somewhere of VL meeting / hanging with Picasso,
although you can't quote me on it. I've forgotten more facts than most will
ever learn, and have come to rely on synthesis rather than analysis as a code
of conduct. As far as the notion of similarities between painting and guitar,
its quite obvious. As musicians we paint the invisible and the sublime with
sketches, portraits and works regulated by a sort of temporal mortality. As a
painter, one paints the same ideal, expressed through the logic of rhythm and
melody, tonics and tone - as line, color, form and theme. The difference is
purely biological - one is heard and one is seen, yet they both produce the
satisfaction of tension and release.
Vivienne
John Wasak
>
> All this on the one hand, but I notice comoposers tend to be ten to twenty
> years behind the rest of the artistic / literary community in terms of
> expressing the zietgeist en vogue.
>
I have to disagree here. When the artistic vogue turned to Abstraction,
it wasn't until the late 1940's led by Jackson Pollock, who freed the
line from its traditional role of defining forms or silhouettes. He
used his lines and blobs to create a pure form of visual experience.
Abstract Expressionism became the dominant form of art throughout the
1950's. In literature the Beats made a push to turn the traditional
fictional form on it's head, with works like Kerouac's "On The Road" and
in poetry, Ginsberg's "Howl". This also was a post-war movement.
Freedom from traditional musical form was born much earlier with
Schoenberg and the twelve tone method by the early 1920's, leading to
the rise of total Serialism. (again, the search for a purer form) Most
serious composers of classical music came to embrace the extreme
dissonance and atonality of these ideas.
Regards,
John Wasak
-----------------------------------------
John Wasak Photography
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Museum/6026
-----------------------------------------
John Philip Dimick
> A little help here. Didn't Picasso do some ballet sets for
>Pulcinella or other Sravinsky ballet?
Maybe you're thinking of Satie's ballet, "Parade."
Apropos of whatever, here are some thoughts from Satie's "Day In
The Life Of A Musician"
"An artist must regulate his life.
"Here is a time-table of my daily acts. I rise at 7:18; am
inspired from 10:23 to 11:47. I lunch at 12:11 and leave the
table at 12:14. A healthy ride on horse-back round my domain
follows from 1:19 pm to 2:53 pm. Another bout of inspiration
from 3:12 to 4:07 pm. From 5 to 6:47 pm various occupations
(fencing, reflection, immobility, visits, contemplation,
dexterity, natation, etc.)
"Dinner is served at 7.16 and finished at 7:20 pm. From 8:09 to
9:59 pm symphonic readings (out loud). I go to bed regularly at
10:37 pm. Once a week (on Tuesdays) I awake with a start at 3:14
am.
"My expression is very serious; when I laugh it is
unintentional, and I always apologise very politely."
--
John Philip Dimick
j...@guitarist.com
www.guitarist.com
William Jennings
wdj
Peter Inglis
Bob Ashley wrote in message ...
>Villa Lobos spent some time in Paris, didn't he? Does anyone know if he
>knew Picasso or Braque or if he was familiar with, or influenced by,
>cubist art?
Ahhhh.... ahem..... probably.....
My qualifications as an expert on modern art are unassailable BTW...
proof at http://www.migman.com.au/aes/bio.htm
.... been there, got the hat ; < )
>I wonder since my impressions of Villa-Lobos' etudes remind me not of the
>Impressionist painters at all, but certainly they do of cubist art. It may
>be the preponderance of parallel chord progressions and/or arpeggios, like
>so many cubist 'shards'. Analytic. Like analytic cubism. Inviting multiple
>viewing (listening) perspectives too.
As Constant Lambert pointed out, comparing Impressionism
in the visual arts, where they use _less_ literalism and in music where
they use _more_ literalism....... is a really weird thing to do!
>Other elements of HVL's music seem more like cubist's montage or
>'synthetic' phase. Well defined, almost 'cut out' phrases are 'pasted up'
>to form larger intriguing musical shapes. Too, the guitar itself, was one
>of Picasso's most enduring subjects.
As a musically 'learned' friend pointed out when he heard
Villa-Lobos' Guitar concerto....... "it's a pastiche! ... and he hasn't
welded the parts together too welll... was he in a hurry"
.... and according to accounts I've read of him watching soccer on
TV (radio?), smoking cigars, having a conversation, eating a meal
and composing all at once... probably!
>Does this HVL/Picasso association of mine register at all for anyone
>else, or is it rather simply an example of a Freudian dream of wish
>fulfillment? Why do I love both artists as if they might have been soul
>brothers?
Maybe they were? We had the mind-body-spirit convention
in Sydney last weekwnd, you could have asked someone there......
Ask your 'inner dolphin' ; < )
Peter Inglis
gui...@migman.com.au
Find your Inner Japanese Tuna Fishing boat at
http://www.migman.com.au/aesu
JCBENFIELD
>Freedom from traditional musical form was born much earlier with Schoenberg
and the twelve tone method by the early 1920's, leading to the rise of total
Serialism. (again, the search for a purer form) Most
>serious composers of classical music came to embrace the extreme dissonance
and atonality of these ideas.
>
>Regards,
>
>John Wasak
I think John is closer to the truth here. For my ear and eye, Stravinsky is
closer to the cubist paintings of Picasso. I suggest l'Histoire du Soldat"
The Soldier's Tale. There is no abandonment of form here, and by the second
listening, the music is as accessible as Schubert lieder.
A little help here. Didn't Picasso do some ballet sets for Pulcinella or
other Sravinsky ballet?
Jim Benfield
Rogluthier
terms of Art Deco, at least those types of images come forth when I play them:
sleek, modern, cutting edge, geometric design reflecting light at specific
angles, a smooth sheen but disengaged, mass-produced (the printed editions).
Etude 9 conveys an Art Deco feeling to me.
Fretfully Yours,
Roger Thurman
Thurman Guitar & Violin Repair, Inc.
900 Franklin Ave.
Kent, OH 44240
330-673-4054
http://members.aol.com/rogluthier/index.html
25 years in repair, making and sales.
Martin Warranty Repair
Visa/MC Shipment on approval
Bob Ashley
> Way-back-when I used to exercise to Bream's 20th Century Guitar. I must have
> listened to it a thousand times. When HVL's #5 came around it always reminded
> me of Picasso. #7 did as well, but not as much. Yepes didn't give me the same
> impression however. When Bream released his version of all 12 etudes the
> Picasso
> feeling was still there, but more subdued, even for #5.
Ah, one fool speaks to another and lo! we speak the same language! A
Picasso/HVL fellowship of aesthetic innovation, no?
I feel vindicated. Moreso in that it has been a fool who set me
free/
Regards,
Rib
Bob Ashley
> Ahhhh.... ahem..... probably.....
> My qualifications as an expert on modern art are unassailable BTW...
> proof at http://www.migman.com.au/aes/bio.htm
> .... been there, got the hat ; < )
Such modesty! I feel so naked in its bright, bright lights.
Peter Inglis wrote:
> As Constant Lambert pointed out, comparing Impressionism
> in the visual arts, where they use _less_ literalism and in music where
> they use _more_ literalism....... is a really weird thing to do!
I think Lambert's out to lunch! Impressionism was as 'literal' as it
comes, at least in its attempt to paint what the eye saw. Monet says:
"When you go out to paint, try to forget what objects
you have before you--a tree, a house, a field, or whatever.
Merely think, Here is a little square of blue, here an oblong
of pink, here a streak of yellow and PAINT IT JUST AS IT LOOKS
TO YOU, THE EXACT COLOR AND SHAPE...of the scene before you."
To think of trees, houses, is to interpret the world, metaphoricalize it
in linguistic signs, but Monet is talking about impressionism as a
natural, naive child of the naturalist/realist tradition.
I'm not sure what to make of Lambert's claim to music's 'literalism',
first of all since music is, in the first place, not 'literary'.
'Literalism' denotes a one-to-one correspondence of meaning and word. I'd
like to hear more of his argument.
Peter wrote:
> As a musically 'learned' friend pointed out when he heard
> Villa-Lobos' Guitar concerto....... "it's a pastiche! ... and he hasn't
> welded the parts together too welll... was he in a hurry"
Yes, pastiche! Says it well.
Regards,
Rib
Vivienne McLaughlin
> I have to disagree here. When the artistic vogue turned to Abstraction,
> it wasn't until the late 1940's led by Jackson Pollock,
Your kidding, or you seriously err. You need to review your facts here. What you
mean to say is "abstract expressionism", not "abstraction" because you have
characterized the latter as the former. Abstraction was in vogue, if not from
JMW Turner, then certainly from the 1910's with Duchamp's Nude Descending
Staircase and Picasso / Braque's collage still life series. The public refers to
this famous and formative movement as Cubism, although it is widely known as the
visible emergence of the notions of abstraction, presented in basic form with
the Fauves and Cezanne, the father of modern abstract art. All this occurred
well before HVL's establishment in Paris as a recognized modern composer.
Further, you should realize Kandinsky popularized non-cubist abstract
expressionism from World War I. (Follow the link: Kandisky (1914) to Gorky
(1930's) to Early Pollock (1940's) to De Kooning, et al.) But the expressionist
notion is irrelevant to the post at hand, for the discussion revolves around
analytical reduction - Cubism and the immediate heirs of cubism, as having an
effect on Villa Lobos' compositional style through the Parisian post world war I
avant garde.
> who freed the
> line from its traditional role of defining forms or silhouettes.
Again, this is too narrow. Pollock introduced a separate notion of "process
art", in which the dynamic process "action painting" created a product which was
poetic both in visual effect (as in the "drip" series) and representational of
the artist as heroic missionary and ritualistic shaman.
The difference is in the label "expressionist", in which poured paint (in
Pollock's case) followed rhythmic dances above his pre-stretched canvas. The
notion of abstraction, though, is macrocosmic in this artistic global order - it
was moving in a steady line of development since the Impressionists broke off to
form the independent salon in the latter half of the 19th century. Manet is
famous for his painting of the little uniformed boy who stands on a canvas
alone, "abstracted" from his surroundings, and hence, from traditional notions
of theme, setting and convenient points of reference. This philosophical
abstraction blossomed into a new language of painting with the likes of Cezanne,
Bonnard, the Fauves and later with Paul Klee, Braque and Wassily Kandinsky.
> used his lines and blobs to create a pure form of visual experience.
> Abstract Expressionism became the dominant form of art throughout the
> 1950's. In literature the Beats made a push to turn the traditional
> fictional form on it's head, with works like Kerouac's "On The Road" and
> in poetry, Ginsberg's "Howl". This also was a post-war movement.
>
Again, no mention was made to unify Villa Lobos, of the 1910's and 20's, with
abstract expressionism, nor to the vogue of the New York School of the 1940's
and 50's. I am refering in the post to Paris' WWI avant garde which centered
around "absraction", not "abstract expressionism", an entirely different
methodology. The abstraction of Leger, Braque and Picasso was a powerful force
in Villa Lobos' circles during his stay in Paris, and I recall the two giants,
HVL and Picasso met during the height of the latter's fame. As such, we cannot
escape from the notion that HVL must have been influenced by the revolutionary
spirit of the abstract movemement to which Cubism is the term generally, though
erroneously, applied.
> Freedom from traditional musical form was born much earlier with
> Schoenberg and the twelve tone method by the early 1920's, leading to
> the rise of total Serialism. (again, the search for a purer form) Most
> serious composers of classical music came to embrace the extreme
> dissonance and atonality of these ideas.
How this supports the theory of the rest of your post escapes me. The "freed
line" as you call it, was popularized by Kandinsky and taught at the Bauhaus in
Europe long before proponents of the abstract school gathered at Black Mountain
college in the US in the 40's and 50's. These compositional methods you mention
are European and distinctly evolve in line with the trends in philosophy and
literature which culminate with Sartre, Kafka and Heiddegger. This summation
seems to conclude more on the side of the two original posts - ie. that Villa
Lobos would have been exposed to the influence of the abstract painters and
writers of his day. Further, it does not support a claim that HVL, or composers
in general, were in tune or out of tune with their artistic contemporaries.
Vivienne
Vivienne McLaughlin
> I think John is closer to the truth here. For my ear and eye, Stravinsky is
> closer to the cubist paintings of Picasso. I suggest l'Histoire du Soldat"
> The Soldier's Tale. There is no abandonment of form here, and by the second
> listening, the music is as accessible as Schubert lieder.
>
He is in the second paragraph of his post, yet the first paragraph is
contradictory to the flow of history as a series of sequential events.
> A little help here. Didn't Picasso do some ballet sets for Pulcinella or
> other Sravinsky ballet?
> Jim Benfield
Picasso is notorious for his "collaborations" with Stravinsky and figures of
the European musical literati. As a set designer he influenced modern masters
such as David Hockney. Unfortunately, I think Picasso's long, prolific life
underscores itself, and sometimes de facto eclipses lesser known masters who
have had a larger influence in modern aesthetic movements. Among whom are Paul
Cezanne and Paul Klee, the true fathers of modern art.
Vivienne
John Wasak
>
> John Wasak wrote:
>
> > I have to disagree here. When the artistic vogue turned to Abstraction,
> > it wasn't until the late 1940's led by Jackson Pollock,
>
> Your kidding, or you seriously err. You need to review your facts here. What you
> mean to say is "abstract expressionism", not "abstraction" because you have
> characterized the latter as the former.
>
You're right. What I should have said and was suggesting was "pure
abstraction" or the visual line reduced to it's most formless.
Certainly Abstractionism and Abstract Expressionism are different.
>
> Further, it does not support a claim that HVL, or composers
> in general, were in tune or out of tune with their artistic contemporaries.
>
I was never intending to link any of my comments with Villa Lobos. I
was merely disagreeing with your comment that "comoposers tend to be ten
to twenty years behind the rest of the artistic / literary community in
terms of expressing the zietgeist en vogue." Again, as I see it, the
Abstract Expressionist's pursuit of a pure form of abstraction happened
after Schoenberg's pursuit of similiar ideas in music.
Regards,
John
Bob Ashley
> Villa Lobos sounds a bit more toward the Futurist / subsequently Abstract
> bend, and leads me to visualize the cooly distant Mondrian and Malevich rather
> than figurative geometric reduction of Leger / Braque, if I may. Also, a bit
> of quirkiness in his style leads me to think he may have been influenced in
> part by the Dada / Duchampian progeny. This movement seems to have had its
> initial shock, and blossomed in coincidence with the time of VL's
> establishment circa 1920 as a recognized composer.
Interesting perspective Viv. To me, Mondrian is a stilled heart, though,
and HVT more dynamic?
Dada? I'm trying imagine this. Well, okay.
Vivienne wrote:
> All this on the one hand, but I notice comoposers tend to be ten to twenty
> years behind the rest of the artistic / literary community in terms of
> expressing the zietgeist en vogue. Just look at Debussy and the so-called
> "Impressionist" composers, who followed a tradition which peaked in the
> 1870's. The chief components of the Impressionist movement, save for Monet,
> had drifted into the corner by the 1890's when Post Impressionism and German
> Expressionsim began to take hold. This may explain why you may "hear" the
> cubist structural philosophy echoed in the skeleton of Villa Lobos
> compositions, although a more appropriate setting for VL would be among the
> young existentialist writers and the surrealist / post-cubist crowd.
>
> Yes, I agree roundly with your pointing to Debussy as a somewhat belated
> impressionist. I'm glad you are able to step into my perspective,
> suggesting why I "may hear the cubist...of Villa Lobos composition". I'm
> somewhat bewildered by the hypothesis that composers are latecomers when
> it comes to expressing an era's zeitgeist? I smell an social hierarchy
> here.
Luckily we have the rubric 'modernism', a useful catchall which I think
admits both your observations and mine.
Regards,
Rib
Bob Ashley
> Vivienne McLaughlin wrote:
> >
> > All this on the one hand, but I notice comoposers tend to be ten to twenty
> > years behind the rest of the artistic / literary community in terms of
> > expressing the zietgeist en vogue.
John Wasak wrote:
> I have to disagree here. When the artistic vogue turned to Abstraction,
> it wasn't until the late 1940's led by Jackson Pollock, who freed the
> line from its traditional role of defining forms or silhouettes. He
> used his lines and blobs to create a pure form of visual experience.
> Abstract Expressionism became the dominant form of art throughout the
> 1950's. In literature the Beats made a push to turn the traditional
> fictional form on it's head, with works like Kerouac's "On The Road" and
> in poetry, Ginsberg's "Howl". This also was a post-war movement.
> Freedom from traditional musical form was born much earlier with
> Schoenberg and the twelve tone method by the early 1920's, leading to
> the rise of total Serialism. (again, the search for a purer form) Most
> serious composers of classical music came to embrace the extreme
> dissonance and atonality of these ideas.
I admit that Vivienne's suggestion of 'Johnny-Come-Lately' composers
startled me a little. Still, the example she pointed to, John, you did not
address--Debussy. The inductive move, however, from this one example to
the generalization that composers are a belated group is stretching it,
sure.
But then, with these cogent examples you cite, we seem swing in our
dialectic from thesis to antithesis. One might get a vague impression that
in your camp it is composers who are the standard-bearers of progress.
Perhaps an expression of an era, its zeitgeist, must remain
tidal, ebbing and flowing. One minute we look and see Schoenberg on a neap
wave and the next Debussy is receding on an ebb.
One last idea: we here are all privileging the aesthetic even while
zeitgeist would embody everything from fashion to foreign policy.
Regards,
Rib
Peter Inglis
>
>> Ahhhh.... ahem..... probably.....
>> My qualifications as an expert on modern art are unassailable BTW...
>> proof at http://www.migman.com.au/aes/bio.htm
>> .... been there, got the hat ; < )
>
>Such modesty! I feel so naked in its bright, bright lights.
I was joking you know!!!!!! (Note smiley with
wink... indicating 'tongue in cheek')
>
>Peter Inglis wrote:
>> As Constant Lambert pointed out, comparing Impressionism
>> in the visual arts, where they use _less_ literalism and in music where
>> they use _more_ literalism....... is a really weird thing to do!
>
>I think Lambert's out to lunch! Impressionism was as 'literal' as it
>comes, at least in its attempt to paint what the eye saw. Monet says:
> "When you go out to paint, try to forget what objects
> you have before you--a tree, a house, a field, or whatever.
> Merely think, Here is a little square of blue, here an oblong
> of pink, here a streak of yellow and PAINT IT JUST AS IT LOOKS
> TO YOU, THE EXACT COLOR AND SHAPE...of the scene before you."
>To think of trees, houses, is to interpret the world, metaphoricalize it
>in linguistic signs, but Monet is talking about impressionism as a
>natural, naive child of the naturalist/realist tradition.
>
>I'm not sure what to make of Lambert's claim to music's 'literalism',
>first of all since music is, in the first place, not 'literary'.
>'Literalism' denotes a one-to-one correspondence of meaning and word. I'd
>like to hear more of his argument.
Fair enough... still he's an entertaining writer (Lambert) ....
so that's gotta count for something! ; < )
Peter Inglis
gui...@migman.com.au
http://www.migman.com.au/aes
Peter Inglis
>On Mon, 10 May 1999, Peter Inglis wrote:
>
>> Ahhhh.... ahem..... probably.....
>> My qualifications as an expert on modern art are unassailable BTW...
>> proof at http://www.migman.com.au/aes/bio.htm
>> .... been there, got the hat ; < )
>
>Such modesty! I feel so naked in its bright, bright lights.
What I meant was that my qualifications were that
I wore a silly hat once!
Childbloom
me. I have always heard two conflicting themes running through his music: a
(crypto?)romanticism and what Vivienne accurately called "futurism." Bob
Ashely's recognition of the paralellism - almost mechanistic (assembly-line?)
approach to harmony reflect a characteristic of the futurist. However, when his
autographs are examined (Preludes and etudes) his original conceptions are
often a simple two part texture: the upper-voice and lower voice in
conventional harmony and voice leading. This texture is then completed in his
characteristic mechanistic ways. Nowhere does this unresolved conflict between
romanticism and this strain of impressionism show itself better than in the
pretty Mazurca in A minor, which uses conventional tertiary harmony throughout
except for the rediculous and anomolous quartal coda. Is the Brazilian VL
simply paying homage (or lip service) to his French hosts? Stanley Yates has
done much work on VL and I would like to know his opinion. The cubist label is
very interesting, but lacking the synaesthetic abilities of others on this
newsgroup, I find it difficult to translate that visual style into music. I see
many similarities between VL's style and Satie's, though VL reached
profundities that Satie eschewed or was not able to reach due to his innate
lack of depth. I do appreciate the opinions in this string. They are all very
interesting.
Kevin Taylor
Vivienne McLaughlin
> Where to place Villa-Lobos on the style and period scale has always interested
> me. I have always heard two conflicting themes running through his music: a
> (crypto?)romanticism and what Vivienne accurately called "futurism."
I completely agree - it is a quircky romantic quality he has that I may have
associated with Dada, though. This movement comes at the end of the romantic
period, and on the surface seems to reject it - but as a painter who engages in
painting arbitrary symbols with heavy "meaninglessness", I have found Dada to be a
deeply "inward", hence romantic journey. Of course, the Futurists and their
philosophy was emerging in Paris during HVL's stay. It seems their penchant for
grasping the beauty of the machine age could have been reflected by other artists,
particularly composers. However, an undercurrent of surrealism and fantasy (De
Chirico, Klee) began its march in rejection of the Futurists and soon eclipsed it.
So the question is which movement would have influenced HVL more, if at all? Can we
discern this from knowing who travelled in his circles? Did Picasso, whose Rose
period would coincide with his meeting HVL, have an effect on him toward composing
a poetic "audial" surrealism? On this I will have to admit my ignorance. Perhaps,
too, I am guilty of putting painters on a higher ground than composers, as it is
tradition that the visual arts are more, well, visible <smirk>.
Yet in truth, among the arts, poetry and literature has had a greater effect on
painting and music than the two would have had on each other, so we may all be
missing one element.
> Nowhere does this unresolved conflict between
> romanticism and this strain of impressionism show itself better than in the
> pretty Mazurca in A minor, which uses conventional tertiary harmony throughout
> except for the rediculous and anomolous quartal coda. Is the Brazilian VL
> simply paying homage (or lip service) to his French hosts?
I wonder, too, if the entire atonal / anomolous movement was'nt spawned as a
musical answer to Duchamp and De Chirico? Or at least the physicists would remind
me that when such movements occur, they occur in concurrent events in different,
seemingly isolated sets. But I'm sure there exists a link in that the proximity of
these musical and painterly circles makes it seem obvious.
Vivienne
Vivienne McLaughlin
> I admit that Vivienne's suggestion of 'Johnny-Come-Lately' composers
> startled me a little. Still, the example she pointed to, John, you did not
> address--Debussy.
Perhaps it is a bias from years of studying and living as a fine artist - Il
pittore pazzo. I have always recognized a sort of food chain in which politics and
social change fuel literature, which becomes the sharkbait for painters and
sculptors, and lastly, the composer who synthesizes all of the above as it is made
available into his musical Gesamtkunstwerk.
> The inductive move, however, from this one example to
> the generalization that composers are a belated group is stretching it,
> sure.
Not a strectch as much as a slight tug.
> One last idea: we here are all privileging the aesthetic even while
> zeitgeist would embody everything from fashion to foreign policy.
Yes, but nowhere is the time ghost more chronicled than in the ticking of the
artistic community. We are the Timex of the culture, with a short and long hand.
Vivienne
JCBENFIELD
Where do you hang out ? If it's any where near New York, I have some friends
up there whose company I'm sure you'd enjoy -- artists and lute player, to be
precise.
Are you a guitarist, or just a lover of its music. I used to play a lot, but
now fall into the latter category.
Jim Benfield
Vivienne McLaughlin
> Vivienne,
> Where do you hang out ? If it's any where near New York, I have some friends
> up there whose company I'm sure you'd enjoy -- artists and lute player, to be
> precise.
Actually, I'm in Bal Harbor, Florida - an NYC expatriot, if you will. I was born
and raised in Manhattan and the Island. I manage a real estate partnership here,
and as such its difficult to get around. We operate in Miami Dade and Broward
counties, so you can imagine the amount of time I have to spend down here in this
cultural desert. I thirst for the quenching juices of New York - the Julliard,
Lincoln Center, Soho, West 57th, Brooklyn Heights. But I've got a little family
nest down here so I won't be back anytime soon. <sigh>
> Are you a guitarist, or just a lover of its music. I used to play a lot, but
> now fall into the latter category
I am a professional cultural dilettante. As such, I would make a great candidate
for president or head of the European Union. But yes, I have played guitar for more
than ten years and am now focused more than ever. Paul Klee is my role model - a
painter and violinist who painted music and played fine art. The two are
inseparable.
Vivienne
df...@publiclibraries.ab.ca
on a rec.music.classical newsgroup in a _long_ time!
The question of Villa-Lobos' modernism is intriguing. When VL left
Paris at the end of the 20's to go home to Brazil, he was ready to
write some of his best music (the entire Bachianas Brasileiras series
and some of his best string quartets) and to create his image of "Villa-
Lobos is Brazil". At the same time, in the next 15 years he was pretty
well out of touch with the rest of the world, and the 12-tone
revolution passed him by.
So he left the greater world as a leading member of the avante-garde,
and came back to it, after WWII, seen as a neo-romantic musical
conservative, ready to become the pastiche-maker of the late concertos
and the stage and movie works.
His avante-garde credentials are pretty good: he was very close with
Varese and Messiaen, and in touch with pretty well everybody in Paris
(what a great time that must have been!) What's really interesting is
to look back now to the music VL wrote in the teens and 20's (pieces
like the Sextuor Mystique, the Quator Symbolique and especially the
Choros series - and let's not forget the etudes for guitar!)
and to see how avante garde it really is.
Philip Glass notes this in his notes to his 2nd Symphony:
"Harmonic language and melodic language can coexist closely or at some
calculated distance, and their relationship can be worked out in terms
of either coexisting harmonies or ambiguous harmonies. Honegger,
Milhaud, and Villa-Lobos--to name a few prominent polytonalists--pushed
two tonalities together at the same time."
[The quote is from http://www-lsi.upc.es/~jpetit/pg/symph2.html]
As post-modernists at the end of the century, we can see the
development of more than only one stream of modernism (i.e.
Schoenberg's) as a legitimate one in the 20th century. I agree it's
certainly not the mainstream, and it tends to be full of musical
eccentrics like Ives and Messiaen as well as Villa-Lobos.
Glass, by the way, chose the Barbara Hendricks/Enrique Batiz/RPO
recording of Bachianas Brasileiras as one of his 5 recommended CDs in a
Classical Insites feature:
http://www.classicalinsites.com/live/fountain/recommen/glass/
I'm intrigued by the cross-the-arts discussions in this thread as well,
and looking forward to more discussion...
Dean
**********
Dean Frey, Webmaster
Heitor Villa-Lobos Website
http://www.rdpl.red-deer.ab.ca/villa
In article <Pine.GSO.3.95.iB1.0.990509005335.13856C-
100...@halifax.chebucto.ns.ca>,
Bob Ashley <ax...@chebucto.ns.ca> wrote:
> Villa Lobos spent some time in Paris, didn't he? Does anyone know if
he
> knew Picasso or Braque or if he was familiar with, or influenced by,
> cubist art?
>
> I wonder since my impressions of Villa-Lobos' etudes remind me not of
the
> Impressionist painters at all, but certainly they do of cubist art.
It may
> be the preponderance of parallel chord progressions and/or arpeggios,
like
> so many cubist 'shards'. Analytic. Like analytic cubism. Inviting
multiple
> viewing (listening) perspectives too.
>
> Other elements of HVL's music seem more like cubist's montage or
> 'synthetic' phase. Well defined, almost 'cut out' phrases are 'pasted
up'
> to form larger intriguing musical shapes. Too, the guitar itself, was
one
> of Picasso's most enduring subjects.
>
> Does this HVL/Picasso association of mine register at all for anyone
> else, or is it rather simply an example of a Freudian dream of wish
> fulfillment? Why do I love both artists as if they might have been
soul
> brothers?
>
> Regards,
>
> Rib
>
>
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Larry Deack
> Villa-Lobos a Cubist?
> I thought he was from Brazil.
Nope, he's from kooobaah just like every good guitarist :-)
I can't believe that you posted this awful pun.... <g>
Spencer Doidge
I thought he was from Brazil.
Spencer Doidge
---------------------------------------------------
CDs and MP3s at
http://www.mp3.com/spencer_doidge
plus downloadable arrangements and compositions
for classical and fingerpicking guitar at
http://www.teleport.com/~spencerd
---------------------------------------------------
Rogluthier
>I thought he was from Brazil.
>
>Spencer Doidge
No, he's considered rather square by today's standards.
Cynthia L. Carter
(Rogluthier) writes:
>>Villa-Lobos a Cubist?
>>I thought he was from Brazil.
>>
>>Spencer Doidge
>
>
>No, he's considered rather square by today's standards.
I have always considered him a well-rounded composer.
Cindy Carter
CCart...@aol.com