Action Height Survey
David Schramm
like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
This is how we'll do it. Take a straight edge that is graduated in
either inches, millimeters, or decimals and measure from the top of the
12th fret to the bottom of the 6th and 1st strings. Do not depress the
strings in any way when you take this measurement. For the more
ambitious take a reading on all 6 strings.
For those who want to take things one step further, try measuring the
set up for the nut. This is how you do it. For each string depress it
to the right(the bridge side) of the 2nd fret. Take a feeler gauge and
slip it under the string and first fret. There should be just a slight
amount of drag when you have found the right feeler gauge. Do this for
each string.
Let us know what type of guitar you have and a little about yourself
ie. professional, student, teacher...etc. and the music you play.
I'll post my standard set up for my handcrafted guitars after we have
several participants here in the newsgroups.
Thanks for your participation.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
Fresno, CA
Sam
My GV Rubio 2a measures 4mm at 12th fret..I'm quite comfortable with it
there.
Sam
David Schramm wrote in message <3793D2CE...@juno.com>...
GuitarsWeB
Aaron Shearer talks about this in his book one. Now don't everyone out there
tell me that's a flamenco action. It's not! I've seen tons of flamencos much
lower..well, lower anyway. I call it my restaurant action. It's for playing
three to fours at a time.
Paul McGuffin (elevator music specialists)
doug jones
1983 Dale Foye 1/8 at both
1997 Burguet 1a 5/32 at both
Now I think I know why I like playing the Foye best. Being hand made
and well broke in it also has the best sound.
At one time I had lowered the string action of the Takamine but put the
original saddle back in about 3 months ago for greater volume.
Doug
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Bob Ashley
> Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
> like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
>
> This is how we'll do it. Take a straight edge that is graduated in
> either inches, millimeters, or decimals and measure from the top of the
> 12th fret to the bottom of the 6th and 1st strings. Do not depress the
> strings in any way when you take this measurement. For the more
> ambitious take a reading on all 6 strings.
Mine is 5/32" minus one pubic hair. Guitar: Olivo Chiliquinga (Brazil,
'88). Sometimes this action results in a little LH fatigue especially
hours of practising something with lots of barring. Other than that, I'm
happy with it.
David Schram wrote:
> For those who want to take things one step further, try measuring the
> set up for the nut. This is how you do it. For each string depress it
> to the right(the bridge side) of the 2nd fret. Take a feeler gauge and
> slip it under the string and first fret. There should be just a slight
> amount of drag when you have found the right feeler gauge. Do this for
> each string.
I did this. I don't have feeler gauges but I could slip a regular sheet of
typing paper in the space without obstruction.
My aim is to do what Paul McGuffin does--restaurant stuff. I might take on
a student or three in the fall. Not sure. Paul mentions Shearer; I'll be
using Shearer's 'Learning the Classic Guitar' 3-volume program.
David, do you have a specific aim for your survey or is this item of
action more of a general curiosity?
Regards,
Rib
Murray Adelman
>
> Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
> like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
>
I have a shade over 5mm at the 12th fret for all strings on my
LaPatrie with standard tension nylon strings. I keep my steel-string
Maton at 3mm at the 12th fret with light strings.
Murray
--
Change xxx to murray in the email address when replying.
David Schramm
Bob Ashley wrote:
>
> Mine is 5/32" minus one pubic hair.
Ouch!!! I hope you didn't have to pluck one to use it as a gauge. I think that
is a topic for some other news group.
>
>
> David, do you have a specific aim for your survey or is this item of
> action more of a general curiosity?
Yes to both. I wanted to show that action is a preference. The results seem
to be quite interesting so far, ranging from 3 to 5mm. I'll give the group 5
more days before I post my standard set up so we have more interesting
results. Thanks for your participation.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
Richard Childress
<schramm...@juno.com> wrote:
>Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
>like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
On my 1983 Ramirez 1a (664mm scale), the 6th string is about 5.5mm and
the 1st string is about 4mm. A pamplet from Ramirez that GSI sent me
when I bought the guitar recommends 4.5mm for the 6th string and 3 mm
for the 1st. The long scale and slightly higher action made it a bit
tough on the left hand until I got used to it, but the sound is
exquisite.
Richard Childress | "Truth gains more even by the errors of one who,
Austin, Texas | with due study and preparation, thinks for himself,
| than by the true opinions of those who only hold
| them because they do not suffer themselves to
rchl...@io.com | think." - John Stuart Mill
David Schramm
Richard Childress wrote:
> On my 1983 Ramirez 1a (664mm scale), the 6th string is about 5.5mm and
> the 1st string is about 4mm. A pamplet from Ramirez that GSI sent me
> when I bought the guitar recommends 4.5mm for the 6th string and 3 mm
> for the 1st.
In the book "Things About the Guitar," by Jose Ramirez III, page 153, he
recommends 3mm on the 1st string and 4.5mm to 5.5mm on the 6th string. With the
higher action that you have I bet the guitar has a powerful sound. 4mm is rather
high for a 1st string in my opinion.
Peter Inglis
Peter Inglis http://www.migman.com.au/aes
David Schramm wrote in message <3793D2CE...@juno.com>...
>Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
>like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
<snip>
steve ganz
High E: 2.5 to 3mm
Low E: 3 to 3.5
--
Steve Ganz sganz_...@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2242/
Have you hugged your guitar today?
Michael P. Burns
My guitar is a flamenco but I thought I post just for contrast
with the classicals. String 6 = 2.5mm, string 1 = 2mm.
--
Michael P. Burns
Cleveland, Ohio USA
ak...@Cleveland.Freenet.edu
George Graham
>Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
>like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
>
Howdy Dave,
Thanks for your participation in this group. Having found your
input useful in the past, I always download your posts.
My Takamine 134S has open 12th fret measurements of
High E: 3.5mm
Low E: 4.8mm
Clearance at 1st fret following your instructions:
High E: much smaller than my thinest auto feeler of 0.008ins.
Low E: just right for 0.008in.
Current music:
I'm working on a combo of Carcassi and Sor studies (20, edited by
Segovia). A person afflicted with music in my head, I sometime
capture some of the tunes drifting by by trapping them in songs.
I find the timber, resonance, and spark of a classical guitar to
be the perfect catalyst for song-writing. Unfortunately, ideas
and lyrics cannot keep up with the flow of new melodies escaping
from my git-box.
In the past I followed Country and Western ( Hank Williams
vintage), then folk (Nancy Whisky, etc), now any meaningful song
and classical guitar music. The guests at the enhanced apartments
annex of a nursing home where my mom lives (she's paralyzed on one
side yet manages to live semi-independantly with her two finches,
Winter and Spring) also like to gather and sing the old songs
whenever we and the Takamine come calling.
I've only semi-memorized two performable little classical pieces,
though, both from Carcassi's method. His waltz that employs "the
principal positions," according to him i.e., 9th, 7th, 5th, 4th
and 2nd , and his "Rondo to Exercise all the Positions." Both are
my kind of tunes. Playing them with those awful "walking through
a plowed field" Augustine strings though, is like walking on
gravel in bare feet, toughens the soul and builds character.
Okay, I apologize: that quality of pun is verboten in public
correspondance.
Actually my complaint about the playability of Augustine strings
mostly alludes to the right hand, and here, to be fair, such
cumbersome difficulty must be good for building right-hand
strength and dexterity. Ne'er the less, when is my next shipment
of La Bella 2001's coming in? Has the ox-cart from California
reported in at the Ohio River ford yet? (actually I suspect
customs delays at the Beaver border)
Looking forward to your results and hoping this helps.
Cheers,
gg
George Graham
Annapolis Valley, Nova Scotia, Canada
JamieWG
Humphrey Millenium:
6th string at 12th fret: 3.7mm
1st string at 12th fret: 2.9mm:
Benjamin Garcia spruce (set very low and used only with amplification):
6th string at 12th fret: 3.2mm
1st string at 12th fret: 2.8mm:
Benjamin Garcia cedar:
6th string at 12th fret: 3.5mm
1st string at 12th fret: 2.8mm:
Ana Espinosa Rodriguez:
6th string at 12th fret: 3.5mm
1st string at 12th fret: 3.1mm:
Jamie
Jamie W. Grossman
Intermediate Classical Guitar Repertoire Favorites Homepage:
http://www.maui.net/~rtadaki/intcgrep.html
Larry Deack
way.
6 = 5mm
1 = 3.5mm
I should measure my gig guitar because I know it's lots lower. Those 3-4
hour gigs can be killer with a high action.
Currently working on Spencer Doidge's transcription of Carioca by Ernesto
Nazareth - What a FUN piece but more difficult than Spencer let on. Has
anybody else on the list worked on this piece? Highly recommended >Also
Barrios' Choro da Saudade - man I love the stretches in this one. I guess
I've been bitten by the south American bug :-)
Paul Homchick
<schramm...@juno.com> wrote:
>Let's have a little fun here. Here is a little survey. What do you folks
>like to have your action at the 12th fret set at?
1999 Lucio y Tomas (Nunez, Blackshear) 650mm scale
12th fret measures
6th string = 3.0 mm
1st string = 2.2 mm
1st fret clearance, fretted at 2nd fret (saddle side)
1 .002 in.
2 .003 in.
3 .004 in.
4 .005 in.
5 .005 in.
6 .005 in.
JamieWG
In article <3794BA6A...@juno.com>, David Schramm
<schramm...@juno.com> writes:
> I'll give the group 5
>more days before I post my standard set up so we have more interesting
>results.
So, ummmm.....wouldn't that be Sunday the 25th, not Thursday the 22nd? Perhaps
many, like me, thought they'd have more time to respond.
I've been very surprised by how high the action is on the majority of the
guitars whose owners have posted. Those of you whose action is more than .5mm
or so above Dave's 'ideal' setup that he posted may want to consider a visit to
your local luthier before you wind up with tendonitis. Please, do yourselves
this favor. Your hands will be forever grateful.
Larry Deack
>Perhaps many, like me, thought they'd have more time to respond.
Me too. I also do too many things on the deadline :-)
>Those of you whose action is more than .5mm
> or so above Dave's 'ideal' setup that he posted may want to consider a
visit to
> your local luthier before you wind up with tendonitis. Please, do
yourselves
> this favor. Your hands will be forever grateful.
Hmmm, I guess I'm lucky since I've been playing at around 5mm for 20+
years. Don't you think it's more a matter of the guitar matching the person?
If you are 6'2" 185lbs like me then maybe it's not so tough but for you it
may be different. I do have lower action on my gig guitar and let the
amplifier do most of the work since 3-4 hour gigs are killer on the hands.
Rather than everybody running to a luthier, how about trying a guitar with
lower action first to see if it works for you? If you don't feel that the
high action is a problem for your hands then why switch? You can really get
a lot of sound out of the instrument if the action is a bit high. I agree
that my guitar is about as high as most would want to go but telling
everyone that their hands WILL get tendonitis is not true since I know
several people with high action who have played for many years without
problems.
As for tendonitis, if you are careful you should be able to avoid it. It's
mostly people who don't listen to what their bodies tell them that have
these problems in music and sports. Your body can give you lots of
information if you listen.
JamieWG
<lar...@zeno.com> writes:
>Don't you think it's more a matter of the guitar matching the person?
>If you are 6'2" 185lbs like me then maybe it's not so tough but for you it
>may be different.
Dear Larry,
You are right that I have no idea what it's like to be 6'2" and 185 lbs. and
have a high-action, long-scale instrument that feels easy to play, so it is
indeed hard for me to imagine why anyone would want to take a difficult and
demanding instrument like the classical guitar and make it even _more_
difficult and demanding. It is not something I'd ever recommend to any student
of mine.
A guitar's action changes over time, especially in the first few years. Some
people, after their initial purchase, never have their instruments readjusted.
They may be surprised to find how much the action has changed over time.
Because this change is gradual, it often goes unnoticed until someone else
plays the guitar and says, "This is a killer!" I stand by my comment that those
whose action measures well above Dave's standard should have their instrument
checked out, especially amateur players who are less likely to be aware that
something may be amiss.
I haven't met anyone yet, students nor teachers, who had abnormally high action
readjusted who weren't glad they had done so. But of course, you could be the
first! How many players have you met who try a guitar and say, "Wow! I love
this instrument! It's so stiff and hard to play, and the action is soooooo nice
and high!" I'd venture to guess it's not many. Most of us want it
all----volume, beautiful tone _and_ easy to play.
I do have lower action on my gig guitar and let the
>amplifier do most of the work since 3-4 hour gigs are killer on the hands.
What about when you practice for hours at a time? How come that's not a killer
on your hands, but the gig hours are?
> You can really get
>a lot of sound out of the instrument if the action is a bit high.
There is a point at which no matter how much you raise the action, the sound
doesn't get much louder, even if you pound on the strings. It becomes a case of
diminishing returns. Different instruments vary on where that point is, but
attempting to play past the instrument's natural upper limit does not result in
much additional volume, and causes a deterioration of the tone quality, once
you reach that point.
Lower action can result in faster, cleaner playing and the ability to practice
for more hours without fatigue. Obviously, everyone must make his/her own
decision. This can be dependent on how many hours you practice, how much your
left hand speed and clarity are affected by action height, the subtlety of your
attack, and your concern over the preventive maintenance of your hands.
BTW, Larry, the action on your first string isn't all that high. If you can't
lower the 6th a little bit without it buzzing when you play loudly, you may
have a fret problem somewhere.
Larry Deack
JamieWG wrote:
> why anyone would want to take a difficult and
> demanding instrument like the classical guitar and make it even _more_
> difficult and demanding.
Why not go real low like flamenco if ease of playing is so important? Where
are the diminishing returns in that direction? I've played many instruments
that are so low that the bass notes buzz all the time but the owners just
doesn't seem to care or the owner play with almost no volume.
> A guitar's action changes over time, especially in the first few years.
Odd, mine has been the same since I bought it. Are you saying the change is
always in the direction of higher action? Are you sure this is true for all
luthiers. I saw that thread on the other list about how Ramirez stiffens the
neck with the ebony and I wonder if that also resists the change in action.
I'd love to hear about this from some luthiers since it's something I've
never heard before. On a new mountain bike you have to true the wheels after
a bit of riding because they get out of whack and there are adjustments made
in the shifters and brakes because the cables stretch. Anybody who sells you
a mountain bikes gives a free tune up and will true your wheels also. If
ones action on the guitar changes like you say, why don't luthiers and
guitar sellers tell people to come in for a tune up in a year or 2 just like
they do for mountain bikes?
> Some people, after their initial purchase, never have their instruments
readjusted.
Perhaps because luthiers aren't telling them they should.
> I stand by my comment that those whose action measures
> well above Dave's standard should have their instrument
> checked out, especially amateur players who are less likely
> to be aware that something may be amiss.
Well, a lot of folks don't have the money to have a luthier lower the
action because the THINK it's too high for them. I had one luthier put on
oversized frets when those were in vogue and I couldn't stand them but he
said he couldn't undo it without charging me even though I did it on his
recommendation. That was the last time I took a luthiers word as the final
say so on what was good for my guitars.
> I haven't met anyone yet, students nor teachers, who had abnormally high
action
> readjusted who weren't glad they had done so. But of course, you could be
the
> first!
Then I'm the first for you. I have high low and medium and the high is my
favorite guitar.
> How many players have you met who try a guitar and say, "Wow! I love
> this instrument!
Many. Many do think the action is too high but they love the guitar.
> It's so stiff and hard to play
It's not stiff, just high. What makes you say stiff? Most people don't even
notice until they go up to the 9th fret and above on the bass notes.
>Most of us want it
> all----volume, beautiful tone _and_ easy to play.
There I agree. In fact I can't see anybody saying they don't want all of
this so you don't need the *most* qualifier.
> What about when you practice for hours at a time? How come that's not a
killer
> on your hands, but the gig hours are?
Maybe you practice differently than me but 3-4 hour gigs are killer since
there's very little break during that time. When I practice I don't play 50
minutes - 10 minutes break - 50 minutes for 3- 4 hours.
> There is a point at which no matter how much you raise the action, the
sound
> doesn't get much louder, even if you pound on the strings. It becomes a
case of
> diminishing returns.
Obviously, but where is that point?
> Different instruments vary on where that point is
Exactly. Perhaps it's your instrument(s). (I thought you had more than one
but like me you only listed one)
> but attempting to play past the instrument's natural upper limit does not
result in
> much additional volume, and causes a deterioration of the tone quality,
once
> you reach that point.
Again, where is that point on _your_ guitar. It's a lot different for my gig
instrument than either of my concert instruments.
> Lower action can result in faster, cleaner playing
Not sure cleaner since so many players with low action buzz the bass notes
all the time. I also hear many players with small volume who don't seem to
care.
> and the ability to practice
> for more hours without fatigue.
For me it's mental fatigue not physical. I don't know how you practice but
I don't just sit there and play for hours and hours and I would recommend
that one NOT do this since it can be very bad for your hands and back. Get
up and take lots of little breaks. Stretch you body and do something
completely unrelated to change your mindset like a sip of fine wine
refreshes the palette before another bite.
> Obviously, everyone must make his/her own
> decision. This can be dependent on how many hours you practice, how much
your
> left hand speed and clarity are affected by action height, the subtlety of
your
> attack, and your concern over the preventive maintenance of your hands.
This I agree with completely but your original statement implied that it
was NOT and individual choice which is why I recommended playing a guitar
with lower actions to see if it's what you want BEFORE having the action
lowered.
> BTW, Larry, the action on your first string isn't all that high. If you
can't
> lower the 6th a little bit without it buzzing when you play loudly, you
may
> have a fret problem somewhere.
I don't think so. Perhaps you don't hear the buzzing that so many have on
their bass notes. I can list dozens of top name players who buzz bass
strings in concert. It's extremely common.
You also didn't tell this NG that you have a smaller guitar and lower
action than anybody else who posted here (except Paul with the flamenco
action :-). Dave mentioned "Jose Ramirez III, page 153, recommends 3mm on
the 1st string and 4.5mm to 5.5mm on the 6th string". And guess what...
that's what my Ramirez is, almost. Maybe you and Mr. Ramirez disagree but I
don't think either of you is right of wrong, rather it is a matter of the
guitar and the person not some arbitrary rule for what it *should* be.
David Schramm
JamieWG wrote:
> On July 20, you wrote:
>
> In article <3794BA6A...@juno.com>, David Schramm
> <schramm...@juno.com> writes:
>
> > I'll give the group 5
> >more days before I post my standard set up so we have more interesting
> >results.
>
> So, ummmm.....wouldn't that be Sunday the 25th, not Thursday the 22nd? Perhaps
> many, like me, thought they'd have more time to respond.
>
Yes, you are correct. I guess I jumped the gun a few days. Sorry. On Sunday the
25th I'll post the suggested actions of other American luthiers.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
David Schramm
Larry Deack wrote:
> On a new mountain bike you have to true the wheels after
> a bit of riding because they get out of whack and there are adjustments made
> in the shifters and brakes because the cables stretch. Anybody who sells you
> a mountain bikes gives a free tune up and will true your wheels also. If
> ones action on the guitar changes like you say, why don't luthiers and
> guitar sellers tell people to come in for a tune up in a year or 2 just like
> they do for mountain bikes?
>
I'm glad you mentioned mountain bikes! I was in the Bicycle industry for over 15
years. I was one of the guys who built bikes and gave tech support for Team
Kahlua. That includes building custom wheels, my specialty. I averaged around
200 custom built wheels a year! Your absolutly right about cable stretch.
There is a trick so that you can minimized cable stretch so that the adjustment
holds for a longer period of time, same with wheel building.
As far as guitar adjustments are concerned, I let my guitars sit for a week
before I re-adjust the action. I find that it changes by a small amount usually
around .005-.010". That's the thickness of about 2 to 3 pieces of paper. After
the second adjustment it pretty much holds up for years to come. Sometimes I
will make the action slightly lower in anticipation of the changes that will
occur resulting in a higher action. I will usually make 2 different saddles for
my customers, one with a low action the other a normal to high action. What
ever the customer wants.
One thing is for sure all guitars will buzz when over played. The illusion of
volume can be created with tone colors and sound production by the performer.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
GuitarsWeB
it has nothing to do with the fact that the strings are higher over the frets.
It's the fact that the saddle bone is higher so the strings roll over, out of
the stringholes in the bridge, at a great angle, thus more evergy driven into
the soundboard . Everyone remember the post on the Newsgroup about strings
with ball in ties? This gives you a greater string angle also. This is why
the flamenco players like the ball end type string ties. You don't really need
much of a string angle anyway, so don't everyone look at their instruments and
panic. One luthier told me about fifteen degrees is enough.
Paul
GuitarsWeB
Ed Chait
Masaru Matano 1976 clase 600
6th string 5mm
1st string 3.5mm
La Patrie Etude
6th string 5mm
1st string 4.5mm
Takamine G126
6th string 4.5mm
1st string 2.5mm
Yamaha G65A
6th string 4.5mm
1st string 3.5mm
The Takamine and Yamaha belong to my son and my daughter. They were
handy, so I measured them as well.
Interestingly, these guitars all play the way they measure. Very
similar to one another. They don't at all sound the same, however.
The Matano is the least forgiving to play, but rewards accuracy with
IMO an ethereal tone. Hopefully, we'll grow old together.
Currently, I've been rumaging through my small collection of Argentine
folk music. "Recreaciones" by Bianqui Pinero and
"De Mi Patria" by Luis R. Sammartino.
I've come back to the CG after a 15 year hiatus, and I'm finding the
rhythms much less intimidating than I remember. Maybe it's that I now
have much more of a "damn the torpedos" attitude towards playing. I'm
actually making some pretty decent progress with this stuff, which is
quite cool since South American folk guitar is my favorite music.
Ed Chait
la...@my-deja.com
"Larry Deack" <lar...@zeno.com> wrote:
> Most people don't even notice until they go up to the 9th fret
> and above on the bass notes.
>
Even "Lagrima" will take you to the 12th fret right away.
And you do not need to press on bass notes to notice the difference
in actions. It is most obvious when you need to press the first
and the third strings at 9-12th frets while sounding the second
open string. It is very easy to have LH fingers in "wrong" position
when practicing with super low action guitar and only to find it out
after switching to another guitar with higher action. - lh
k...@bu.edu
>
> Dear Jamie,
>
> JamieWG wrote:
> > why anyone would want to take a difficult and
> > demanding instrument like the classical guitar and make it even _more_
> > difficult and demanding.
>
> Why not go real low like flamenco if ease of playing is so important? Where
> are the diminishing returns in that direction? I've played many instruments
> that are so low that the bass notes buzz all the time but the owners just
> doesn't seem to care or the owner play with almost no volume.
I gree with Jamie about the action. I had my action lowered, because my
guitar was a killer -
I could not play beyond the 5th fret without wrecking my hands. But the
reason I lowered my
action to about 4.4 mm is to play flamenco. The biggest misconception
among guitarists is that
the action on a flamenco guitar is much lower (the fact is, one won't be
albe to play clean, crisp and loud passages on
a very low action guitar). My friend, who is a flamenco professional,
actually
prefers a medium action well-balanced classical guitar (European made,
thought, which means it has a spruce top) to play flamenco.
For all those who are interested in a lot more than noisy pmp and
rasgueados, esp. those who play Paco De Lucia/Vicente Amigo/Gerardo
Nunez type stuff with lots of scales know what I am talking about. If
you get a CD of a professional flamenco guitarist,
you will not hear too many buzzes, except when playing pieces that
require this kind of sound. Take G. Nunez' Jucal --
there are less buzzes on it than on an average classical CD. The time
when guitarists played a very low action
guitars (Montoya, e.g.) is over. The new generation of guitarists
including Paco, Amigo, Nunez, Sanlucar, or at least the last two,
prefer good (i.e. "classical") sounding guitars.
Konstantin
GuitarsWeB
classical. As I have stated, I play with the bass E string at 1/8th. of an
inch at the 12th fret. That's low by most of "your" standards on this
Newsgroup. I have played for over forty years in restaurants,weddings, etc. I
play with very good volume and very,very cleanly. As I stated in an earler
post. Aaron Shearer recommends this height. You adapt your playing to the
lower sction. Yes, I know flamenco players who play with a higher action,
Adam DelMonte for one. But, don't make blanket statements..[the fact is,one
won't be able to play clean,crisp and loud passages on a very low action
guitar] again, what's low to you and the Newsgroup might not be low to me or
others who know how to use it and work with it. This Newsgroup is not the
last word in guitars and music. It's just a Newsgroup. Not a Newsgroup of
experts, a group of players with opinions, some true some false some way out in
left (or right to be PC ) field. Most 'buzzes' I get are not my instrument,
they're ME!
Paul McGuffin
David Schramm
k...@bu.edu wrote:
> . My friend, who is a flamenco professional,
> actually
> prefers a medium action well-balanced classical guitar (European made,
> thought, which means it has a spruce top) to play flamenco.
Because a guitar is "European made" does NOT mean that it has a spruce top. That
is ridiculous and is false information. Sounds like you have been listening too,
and believing, the dealer hype.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
Larry Deack
> But aren't you the one who just said you like your action high and that
you
> would be the first who, given the option, would not prefer to play with
lower
> action?
Give me a break Jamie. That's so silly. Who would prefer higher action if
they could get the same sound with action like a Strat? I'm not sure why but
I get the feeling that you just don't like me so why don't we just not post
to each other any more, OK?
Have a good life Jamie.
David Schramm
JamieWG wrote:
>
> In any
> case, there was no reason for you to, since Dave requested action height specs
> and not string length.
That was my oversight. Scale length is very important and related to action
height. So the data is flawed.
> As for having the lowest action due to the string
> lengths of my instruments, I believe Dave S's action specs were even lower than
> many of mine, and if I remember correctly, he doesn't build short scale
> guitars.
>
I build all scale lengths. The shortest being 630mm and the longest 665mm. 653mm is
the one I sell the most of. I build what ever the customer wants. The sonority of
an instrument can be controlled by the scale length. A good example of this is the
piano.Personally I prefer the sonority of the longer scales over the shorter ones.
Neither one is better just different. I have found that the shorter scales can
have the action set very low without buzzing. Usually around 3/32 on the 6th and
slightly lower on the 1st.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
JamieWG
> Why not go real low like flamenco if ease of playing is so important? Where
>are the diminishing returns in that direction? I've played many instruments
>that are so low that the bass notes buzz all the time
Dear Larry,
You have answered your own question. Need I say more?
>
>> A guitar's action changes over time, especially in the first few years.
>
> Odd, mine has been the same since I bought it. Are you saying the change is
>always in the direction of higher action?
I have never seen the opposite effect, except in seasonal changes or if a
guitar develops structural problems. Many luthiers set their guitars slightly
low when they first set them up, knowing the action will come up a bit as the
soundboard and neck adjust to the tension. The length of time it takes for that
adjustment is dependent on the construction of the instrument, humidity, age of
wood, etc. I'm sure the luthiers can shed more light on this than I ever could.
> Are you sure this is true for all
>luthiers.
I do not know all luthiers, so I cannot say it is true for all luthiers;
however, I can't visualize how one could put all that string tension on the
neck and top of the guitar and have the action go _down_ unless the top is
collapsing or the neck backbows, in which case I'd be at my luthier's door real
fast.
> Well, a lot of folks don't have the money to have a luthier lower the
>action because the THINK it's too high for them.
One luthier who has made instruments for me has never charged me for action
adjustments in 19 years. In fact, last winter I was at his house visiting with
my guitar. He took it from me to play it for a few minutes, commented that the
action felt a little high, and took care of it on the spot. No charge, and I
didn't even ask for it to be done.
On another occasion, just a couple of days ago, I took my new Espinosa to Gila
Eban because I thought the first string felt too high and that the saddle or
frets needed adjustment. She took a couple of measurements and a good look,
identified the culprit as the nut, and worked her magic. Had I taken matters
into my own hands and adjusted the saddle to avoid paying a luthier (whose fee
was very reasonable, BTW), I would only have created new problems, plus I'd
need a new saddle and _still_ would need the nut adjusted professionally. I'd
say it was money very well spent. (Since the luthier who made the instrument is
in Granada, it would have been a little pricey to take it back for a free
adjustment.)
Good luthiers are well worth the price of their work, and sometimes a
higher-than-normal action is indicative of another problem that a luthier can
spot, or a combination of factors that must be dealt with individually. Saying
that it's not worth paying a luthier to check out an overly high action problem
is like saying that it's not worth it to investigate that rattle in your car
engine as long as the car is still running, or that it's not worth replacing
worn tires if you don't have a flat.
> I have high low and medium and the high is my
>favorite guitar.
You say it's your favorite guitar, but you don't say it's your favorite action!
What I'm trying to say is that players _can_ have it _all_----low action, lots
of volume, beautiful tone. But it is true that Ramirez guitars often require
high setups in order to avoid buzzing, and have a reputation for being
difficult to play. (I played a Ramirez 1a exclusively from 1973-1980.). As long
as you're willing to pay the price for the high action, all is well.
>> How many players have you met who try a guitar and say, "Wow! I love
>> this instrument!
>
>Many. Many do think the action is too high but they love the guitar.
You took my comment out of context, since the full quote refers to the _feel_
of an instrument and not the sound. Also, I was not referring to your guitar
per se, but "a guitar", that is, any guitar, a hypothetical guitar. I'm sure
your guitar has the beautiful, warm, full, powerful sound for which the maker
is known, and for that, has many admirers.
I wrote:
>
>>Most of us want it
>> all----volume, beautiful tone _and_ easy to play.
>
And you replied:
>There I agree. In fact I can't see anybody saying they don't want all of
>this so you don't need the *most* qualifier.
But aren't you the one who just said you like your action high and that you
would be the first who, given the option, would not prefer to play with lower
action?
Here are the quotes:
I said:
>> I haven't met anyone yet, students nor teachers, who had abnormally high
>action
>> readjusted who weren't glad they had done so. But of course, you could be
>the
>> first!
And you replied:
>
>Then I'm the first for you.
>
>Maybe you practice differently than me..........When I practice I don't play
50
>minutes - 10 minutes break - 50 minutes for 3- 4 hours.
Between taking care of my kids, husband, and home, and my teaching schedule,
when there's a big block of time, I'll take it gladly and be grateful!
Fortunately, I've never had a problem with my hands and long stretches of
playing.
> Perhaps it's your instrument(s). (I thought you had more than one
>but like me you only listed one)
I listed four.
>> attempting to play past the instrument's natural upper limit does not
>result in
>> much additional volume, and causes a deterioration of the tone quality,
>once
>> you reach that point.
>
You answered:
>Again, where is that point on _your_ guitar.
Well, Larry, it's something one has to hear and not something that can be
described in an email. That point is where I no longer get out of it what I'm
putting into it.
> Not sure cleaner since so many players with low action buzz the bass notes
>all the time.
And so many players (especially amateurs with less finely-tuned instruments)
with too-high action buzz all over the place because they can't hold all the
notes down, or are merely struggling more than they need to. Many of them
aren't aware that an action adjustment could take care of all that, or that
their instruments may have more serious problems.
> I also hear many players with small volume who don't seem to
>care.
Guitars with both low and high action can produce inadequate volume, which is
often the result of faulty technique or a poor instrument rather than action
height.
>> Obviously, everyone must make his/her own
>> decision.
>
> This I agree with completely but your original statement implied that it
>was NOT and individual choice
Larry, of course it is an individual choice. I can tell you what I like, what I
tell my students, and what I think is best for players, which is what Dave S.
initially asked for, but I'm certainly not going to come over there and issue
you a summons to appear in Guitar Court for having high action! That has a high
enough price tag already. Besides, by Ramirez standards, your guitar doesn't
qualify. I had forgotten that their specs require significantly higher action
than most.
> You also didn't tell this NG that you have a smaller guitar and lower
>action than anybody else who posted here (except Paul with the flamenco
>action :-).
As you know, I'm not exactly shy about the fact that I play a slightly shorter
than standard scale. But you didn't comment about your guitar being longer than
standard either, did you? (Or is it one of the 650mm Ramirez models?) In any
case, there was no reason for you to, since Dave requested action height specs
and not string length. I was merely following instructions, not attempting to
hide some deep dark secret. As for having the lowest action due to the string
lengths of my instruments, I believe Dave S's action specs were even lower than
many of mine, and if I remember correctly, he doesn't build short scale
guitars.
Jamie
GuitarsWeB
action to stop the _back buz_ . The longer the scale, the more problems you
have with back buz. Dave Schramm talked about this on an earler post when he
mentioned barring at the seventh fret caused the neck to drop [so to speak]
.010" Many luthiers don't understand this. This is the reason for neck
relief. Ramirez took the easy way out with the long scale, just raise the
strings to the top of the flag pole. How many of you own Spanish guitars with
no set back in the string length? They don't seem to understand that over
there..YET! And, how long have they been building guitars. Try and tell a
Spanish luthier anything about guitar building.This is why so many of your
Spanish guitars have intonation problems. Even the cheap guitars from Japan
have a compensation built in. And I don't mean a skewed saddle bone!
Paul McGuffin
JamieWG
(GuitarsWeB) writes:
>How many of you own Spanish guitars with
>no set back in the string length?
Dear Paul,
Could you please define "set back" for me?
JamieWG
<schramm...@juno.com> writes:
>
>
>That was my oversight. Scale length is very important and related to action
>height. So the data is flawed.
So, Dave, are the action specs you listed for your guitars correct for only
your 650 guitars?
>> if I remember correctly, he doesn't build short scale
>> guitars.
>>
>
>I build all scale lengths. The shortest being 630mm and the longest 665mm.
I'm sorry, Dave. My error.
David Schramm
JamieWG wrote:
> So, Dave, are the action specs you listed for your guitars correct for only
> your 650 guitars?
>
No, the specs are my standard (starting point) set up for all scale lengths.
Before I build a guitar I need to know what the action and string height at the
saddle are before I begin construction. The string height at the saddle is the
distance from the face to the bottom of the 1st string at the saddle. The guitar
is built around these measurements. On my classical guitars my string height at
the saddle is .400". On flamenco guitars it is .250". The action and string
height at the saddle determines the neck angle. This is why I build my neck and
body separately. I can have total control of the neck angle. Something that is
very difficult if you build in the spanish style of construction. Which btw is
the weakest way to build a guitar. I can control this angle to a tolerance of
.005" or better.
Dave Schramm
Schramm Guitars
GuitarsWeB
scale length[no string length] the distance from the fingerboard side of the
nut[inside] should be 325mm. to the top of the 12th. fret. Now the distance
from the top of the 12th. fret to the top of the bone saddle, or pin in the
Gilbert style bridge, schuld measure about 326mm or 327mm. So, you need to add
about one or two millimeters to the scale sength
GuitarsWeB
But, you get the idea. Some Spanish builders[most] don't put any set back for
intonation.
Paul
JamieWG
steve
Contreras classical, Valdez flamenco, Pimentel flamenco all 4 mm low,
3 mm high. I set these up by feel and eyeball, so surprised they
turned out identical
I hadn't checked before side by side. Amazing that these all play
very differently! The relief in the 4th - 8th fret domain seems to
the area that I feel most in everyday playing and where I tend to work
towards getting the feel of the strings the way I want it. Scale
length seems to have an impact on the feel a bit as well, as does
construction. A couple of my guitars seem to have very stiff tops;
I've ended up with normal tension strings and fairly low actions
compared to the 5mm/4mm setups I played years ago with younger hands.
I've also got a cedar-top rather limber guitar out on loan that I
suspect is more like 5.x and 4.5 mm. Feels high on landing on the
string, but depresses easily and controllably. I had it lower and
didn't like it!
Now the concept of 2mm flamenco setup is interesting. Maybe I'll try
that and see if I can still find the strings!
Steve Perry in TN.
Richard Childress
<schramm...@juno.com> wrote:
>Thanks for your participation Richard!
>
>Richard Childress wrote:
>
>> On my 1983 Ramirez 1a (664mm scale), the 6th string is about 5.5mm and
>> the 1st string is about 4mm. A pamplet from Ramirez that GSI sent me
>> when I bought the guitar recommends 4.5mm for the 6th string and 3 mm
>> for the 1st.
>
>In the book "Things About the Guitar," by Jose Ramirez III, page 153, he
>recommends 3mm on the 1st string and 4.5mm to 5.5mm on the 6th string. With the
>higher action that you have I bet the guitar has a powerful sound. 4mm is rather
>high for a 1st string in my opinion.
>
Oop! I measured again and discovered that I had mis-read the ruler
the first time. The 1st string is 3mm (not 4). I was correct the
first time on the 6th string - 5.5mm.
Richard Childress | "Truth gains more even by the errors of one who,
Austin, Texas | with due study and preparation, thinks for himself,
| than by the true opinions of those who only hold
| them because they do not suffer themselves to
rchl...@io.com | think." - John Stuart Mill
Art Lim
I missed the survey, because I just picked up my guitar after about 30
years. I have a Marcelino Lopez (Madrid), 1963. I never had a clue about
what the heights should be, so I measured them. This is what I got:
Length: 660mm, Height at bridge: 10.0 and 9.3 (6th & 1st), Height at
12th fret: 4.7 and 4.3. I've always thought that the height of the
nylon strings was too high, and your survey seems to confirm this.
Thanks.
Art Lim
David Schramm
Art Lim wrote:
Art,
For a 660mm scale the 6th string looks pretty good, but a tad on the high
side. The first string should be brought down to at least 3mm. or lower.
Dave Schramm
SchrammGuitars