New Tornavoz guitar.... this one blew my mind!

[dewach...@gmail.com]

The effect of a tornavoz, is three fold, and similar to the concept of a Helmholtz resonator. When you pluck a string, air is forced in and out of the sound hole, the speed of the air moving in and out determines the frequency of the the air mode of the body of the guitar. The tornavoz acts like the throat of a beer bottle, and if you blow across the top of the bottle you will get a certain note or frequency. The slower the air moves in and out the lower the note or frequency, the faster it moves in and out the higher the note. The second effect is it eliminates the percussive airy attack by inhibiting the speed of the air. On a very light or thin guitar you invariably get a airy percussive attack, and the tornavoz works very well with lightly constructed guitars, the effect is less noticeable and perhaps even detrimental if used on thicker more rigid modern guitars. Third effect is, it rings slightly and give a very pleasant metallic color to the over all tone. Kinda a dark and bright sound all in one. Here is a video of the incomparable Gary Stewart playing a Tornavoz guitar I made for him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVZr_T8dnbU&feature=plcp

http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... C_0330.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... C_0311.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... C_0313.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... C_0305.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa3 ... 0295_2.jpg

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Sorry here are some links that work.
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0330.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0323.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0313.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0309.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0305.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/MichaelThames/DSC_0325.jpg

[Cactus Wren]

Mike, does a lightly built guitar usually put out more sound for a given attack? That is, less work to get out sound?

On Sunday, November 18, 2012 10:21:38 AM UTC-7, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:

[dewach...@gmail.com]

It seems to give a more pleasing fundamental attack, not a bunch of transient noise. You also get a more bouncy rich bass, along the lines of a Torres. The tornavoz is a little deceptive, it projects much more than you hear playing it. I'll try and dig up some quotes about the Tornavoz from Pujol, and his piers. Those guitarists that played Torres guitars with a Tornavoz are...... Julian Arcas, Tarrega, Migel Llobet, Pujol, just to name a few.

[John Nguyen]

Hey, stop posting these enticing pictures, will you? My wife looked
over the shoulder and said "What??? Looking for another guitar??"

[Jonathan]

That sounds amazing!

[Charlie]

It sounded muted to my ear.

Charlie

[Matt Faunce]

On 11/18/12 6:55 PM, Charlie wrote:
> It sounded muted to my ear.
>
> Charlie

Tashi recorded it too hot for YouTube. When I had my improvisations up
on YouTube the levels were good on my computer but too hot for YouTube.
YouTube already kills many subtleties like the reverb tails, but
recording it hot will kill the tails even more.

--
Matt

[dsi1]

On 11/18/2012 1:55 PM, Charlie wrote:
> It sounded muted to my ear.
>
> Charlie
>

I would use the word "choked." It has a sound which reminds me of a
resonator guitar.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I didn't record that a friend of Gary's did. It does have some digital distortion, but you get the idea. This is an old recording.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Both you and Jonathan are not refined listeners.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Sorry, I meant Charlie not Jonathan!

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I've noticed women tend to be jealous over guitars more than other women.

[Ch...@rudeguitar.com]

Very cool! Check out my new tornavoz comparison video on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAyRNfr7tW8&feature=gp-n-y

[Matt Faunce]

On 5/7/14, 9:40 AM, Ch...@rudeguitar.com wrote:
>
>
> Very cool! Check out my new tornavoz comparison video on YouTube:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAyRNfr7tW8&feature=gp-n-y
>

'No tornavoz' wins, easily. But if your guitar behaves anything like
mine the tornavoz might help attenuate the wolf tones which really howl
when the barometer is high.

Christopher, compare the sound of your guitar with one of the tornavozes
in with the sound of your guitar with some foam stuck inside the guitar
at the heal and without the tornavoz. I bet it's very similar. And I bet
it's a hell of a lot easier to put in and take out.

When the barometer is high my wolf tones are a big problem, especially
when amplifying (at gigs), so I attenuate them by sticking a piece of
closed cell foam, 4"x10"x3/8", into the guitar at the heal. I use closed
cell foam because it doesn't flake of when sticking through the strings,
but open cell works just as well. I first tried this with a foam ball
about 7" diameter, which I found in the toy section of a supermarket,
which I cut in half to be able to stick through the strings.

--
Matt

[Tony Done]

I thought that the best sound was the non-Tornavoz. The poor sound of
the cardboard in the bass and low-mids makes me wonder how well the
O-Port performs, since it uses flexible plastic.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Andrew Schulman]

Instead of waterboarding Dick Cheney should have used the first 2 minutes and 50 seconds of this video on an endless loop. They probably would have gotten some real intel and would have saved a lot of water.

[Tony Done]

LOL

I know that O-Ports have been done to death, but maybe their are some
new opinions........

[Andrew Schulman]

On Saturday, May 10, 2014 2:06:41 AM UTC-4, Tony Done wrote:
> LOL
>
> I know that O-Ports have been done to death, but maybe their are some
>
> new opinions........
>

> Tony Done
>
No, I wasn't referring to the thread, I really meant the video. I don't mean to disparage the player or his intention, it's just that listening to those slow chromatic scales over and over on an endless loop would assuredly drive someone crazy.

The O-Ports are sold by Planet Waves, a division of D'Addario. I'm a D'Addario endorsee from way back so when they first came out I got a few and was very enthusiastic at first. Over time I stopped using them, but got a lot of feedback from steel-string players, including my wife, that they are very effective on those guitars. With classical guitars there is much more variance. I think it's really a perfect example of personal preference, I don't think they're better or worse in some cases if they are made and fitted properly. Thames does the real deal, I think that's more effective than the kind that are not permanently installed. Even so, what I came to is that the Tornavoz sound is not my cup of java.

Andrew

[Tony Done]

Heh, I though you were referring to the tone in the first section.

I've had similar experiences, where something seems good at the time you
did it, then got less impressed as time went by. I think there is a
psychological thing - "I spent time/money/effort on this, it must be an
improvement" - so I'm a bit wary of user reviews.

I had the chance to get a steel-string O-Port fairly cheaply a few weeks
ago, but passed. I'm happy with the sound of my steel strings, and I
wasn't in the mood for that kind of experimenting.

[Andrew Schulman]

On Saturday, May 10, 2014 3:01:29 PM UTC-4, Tony Done wrote:
> I've had similar experiences, where something seems good at the time you
>
> did it, then got less impressed as time went by. I think there is a
>
> psychological thing - "I spent time/money/effort on this, it must be an
>
> improvement"
>

I think that's it.

Andrew

[thomas]

The technical term is confirmation bias.

[Andrew Schulman]

On Saturday, May 10, 2014 3:49:38 PM UTC-4, thomas wrote:
> The technical term is confirmation bias.

Good term, as I get older and wiser(?) I'm more aware of it and that can save a lot of time.

Andrew

[dsi1]

Your perception of the tornavoz sound makes you a member of the non-refined listeners club, of which, I am the president. Welcome to the party pal!

[Tony Done]

>> Tony Done

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
>
> Your perception of the tornavoz sound makes you a member of the non-refined listeners club, of which, I am the president. Welcome to the party pal!
>

<g> Ya play like me, ya need to be a little insensitive to tone, timing,
melody etc........

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I saw your video, and while it was a good attempt, simply sticking a cardboard tube inside the sound hole doesn't really do much other than mute the sound in a rather unflattering way. There is far more to it than that. The tornavoz must be attached firmly to the top to offer some dampening as well as additional stiffness.

The tornavoz must be free to vibrate as well, as it offers a slight but noticeable color cast to the tone.

Tornavoz guitars sound much better when they are made in the style of Torres, meaning very lightly made. Personally, I would not stick a tornavoz in a heavy modern guitar it really does nothing good for the sound.

These days I prefer a tornavoz made from Carbon fibre over brass. Many very good makers are perplexed by the tornavoz as well, and try the same thing that you did making a case against the tornavoz based on cardboard sleeves. Al Carruth did the same thing.

Unless you get your hands dirty and make a number of guitars designed from the ground up around the tornavoz you will learn nothing.

Here are a couple videos I made with guitars featuring a tornavoz. The first one is Doug Seth's guitar which has a carbon fibre T. The second one is me playing and features a brass T. These guitars I consider amongst my best, and is the reason I keep getting more and more orders for tornavoz guitars. I don't hear any muted sound in these guitars at all. In fact to my ear they have a very elegant open sound, quite the opposite of what your video suggests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBQTAq7_tU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsxmepa_jn0

Here is Michael Chapdelaine playing a Tornavoz guitar, recorded on a little Sony hand held recorder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbMm4rdvu9c

[dewach...@gmail.com]

What qualifies you for president? Most politicians only pay lip service, an boast about things they know nothing about.

You never have bought a true concert guitar in your life, never played a professional concert, and now you are president!

Critics like you are a dime a dozen. Try building a barn some time.

[dsi1]

Okay, this is one argument you win. You be the president - you're
certainly qualified.

[Tony Done]

On 5/14/2014 1:38 AM, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> These days I prefer a tornavoz made from Carbon fibre over brass.
> Many very good makers are perplexed by the tornavoz as well, and try
> the same thing that you did making a case against the tornavoz based
> on cardboard sleeves. Al Carruth did the same thing.
>
> Unless you get your hands dirty and make a number of guitars designed
> from the ground up around the tornavoz you will learn nothing.
>
> Here are a couple videos I made with guitars featuring a tornavoz.
> The first one is Doug Seth's guitar which has a carbon fibre T. The
> second one is me playing and features a brass T. These guitars I
> consider amongst my best, and is the reason I keep getting more and
> more orders for tornavoz guitars. I don't hear any muted sound in
> these guitars at all. In fact to my ear they have a very elegant
> open sound, quite the opposite of what your video suggests.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwBQTAq7_tU
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsxmepa_jn0
>
> Here is Michael Chapdelaine playing a Tornavoz guitar, recorded on a
> little Sony hand held recorder.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbMm4rdvu9c
>

I think there is a world of difference between incorporating a
particular feature into the design of a guitar and using it as a tone
modifying add-on. For example, Breedlove use a JLD flying brace in some
of their guitars and the top bracing is much lighter than in their
standard models. I'm wondering how your T guitars differ from your
standard models, <g> apart from having a T, that is.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I'm not running for anything.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

If you look into Torres, during the First Epoch half of his guitars had Tornavoz in them, out of those half they were the top end Torres, the rest were the cheaper Flamenco guitars. So the great master had a preference for the tornavoz. These Tornavoz guitars gave birth to the modern guitar as we know it today. Julian Arcas, Tarrega, Llobet, Pujol just to name a few played Torres Tornavoz guitars. Llobet himself was reputed to own 40 guitars, and his favorite one was his Torres FE-09 of course fitted with a T.

The guitars of Torres that had the T. were braced much different than his standard bracing, in particular they had no transverse brace, and the tornavoz was supported with sound post thus supporting the top. They were radically different than the standard guitars of today. That's why simply sticking a cardboard tube in the sound hole is a waste of time.

I base my T. guitars on Torres. However I am incorporating an access door in the back of the guitar because one has no access through the sound hole, in the case of future repair work. I believe the main reason the T. went out of fashion was the fact they could not be repaired so many people simply had them taken out.

Robert Bouchet removed a T. on a Torres and did a real butcher job on it. You can find many Tornavoz in antique shops in Spain.

[Jonathan]

I'm curious what material Torres used to make his Tornavozes.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Torres used Brass...... Hauser used wood.

[dsi1]

Your mother wears combat boots.

[Jonathan]

Which material do you prefer?

[Slogoin]

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:14:56 PM UTC-7, Jonathan wrote:
>
> > Torres used Brass...... Hauser used wood.
>
>
>
> Which material do you prefer?

From an earlier post.

[Jonathan]

Thanks. Perhaps some time I will get a chance to play a guitar with one.
Maybe I already have and didn't know it :)

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I was somewhat hesitant to make a guitar with a T. Then Gary Stewart ordered one, and it turned out great, had it turned out bad I probably would never have made another one.

[thomas]

Yeah, Mike for president! Because we want to see what conspiracy theories he comes up with after he wins!

[dsi1]

Ha ha, he chickened out and refused the presidency. Nobody wants to be
president! I thought I was sitting pretty like Clay but sadly, I flunked
on the basic requirements. My guess is that the Non-refined Listeners
Club is doomed without leadership. That's the breaks.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Thom yer without the most refined personality, and articulate commentators the apes here have ever heard type.

[thomas]

On Wednesday, May 21, 2014 3:25:00 PM UTC-4, dewach...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thom yer without the most refined personality, and articulate commentators the apes here have ever heard type.>

Which is exactly why I should be your campaign manager.