Ravel
Reza (www.rezamusic.com)
Bolero which I know you don't like.
Many thanks
Reza
snoops...@hotmail.com
I'm not the Maestro and excuse me for answering the question, but
anybody who can write beautiful works the likes of Daphnis et Chloe,
Jeux d'eau, Gaspard de la nuit (what kind of mind dreams up a piece like
Scarbo) Valses Nobles et Sentimentales, the lovely String Quartet in F,
Miroirs, Ma mere l'oye (Mother Goose Suite), Le tombeau de Couperin, La
Valse, Tzigane, Piano Concerto for the Left Hand and Piano Concerto in G
Major, Violin Sonata, Piano Trio
etc.. has got to be one of the greatest creative minds that ever lived
in any field, not just music. Word has it that he himself didn't like
Bolero either, but I think it's one of the great lessons in
orchestration and dynamics. Speaking of orchestration, Ravel wrote the
book on this with his orchestration of Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an
Exhibition". One look at the score to that or to Daphnis et Chloe
(especially Suite #2) is a mind-boggling experience. Then you have to go
hear them performed in a great hall by a great orchestra and a great
conductor. A good recording and a very good stereo is a decent
substitute if you can't do that.
Greg M. Silverman
Snoop,
Me no Mastro either, but you left off Ma Mere l'Oye, Le Tambeau de
Couperin and Valse nobles et sentimentales all for both piano and
orchestra. He also did as great job with that staple of the Jewish
liturgy, the Kaddish, for soprano and orchestra. And his song cycle
Shaharazade is to die for! And, lets not forget the Pavane pour une
infante de'funte. I do love Daphnis and Chloe though, I have an
absolutely mind bogglingly perfect performance of this by the USSR
Symphony as directed by Gennadij Roshdestwenskij...
gms--
--
Greg Silverman
g...@umn.edu
EOH Health Studies
UofMN
Greg M. Silverman
sorry... I didn't read your post thoroughly enuf... mea culpa!
but, do add, the string qurtet in F major, and probably just about
everything he ever wrote. heck, I even like the Bolero. Best version
features Larry Adler on chromatic harmonica... I guess even Ravel was
impressed when Larry played it with Ravel at the piano..
gms--
Matanya Ophee
> Speaking of orchestration, Ravel wrote the
>book on this with his orchestration of Mussorgsky's "Pictures at an
>Exhibition".
Another book he wrote at the same time is how to misunderstand a
Russian composer and completely distort his music. The Ravel
orchestration is only played these days by Pops or Promenade
orchestras. Serious conductors prefer the Ashkenazy orchestration.
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
snoops...@hotmail.com
Hi Greg, If you read my post carefully enough you'll notice that I
included The Mother Goose Suite, The Tombeau de Couperin and The Valse
Nobles Et Sentimentales. You're right, the Kaddish is lovely, as is the
Sheherazade. Do you know his L'enfant et les sortileges (Lyric Fantasy)?
I have a wonderful recording coupled with the most sensuous account of
the Mother Goose Suite with Andre Previn and The London Symphony
Orchestra on a CD from Deutsche Grammophon DG 457 589-2 (It's got
some charming cartoon artwork by Chuck Jones on the CD covers)
The last movement of Mother Goose, "Apotheose-Le Jardin feerique" (The
Fairy Garden) is played and recorded so sumptuously you'll think you've
visited Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory all over again.
About that Daphnis et Chloe recording, could it possibly be better than
Charles Dutoit's 1980 recording with the Montreal Symphony on Decca?
Also, have you ever heard Jessye Norman's album of Ravel songs with
Pierre Boulez? (Grammy winner 1984) Fantastic!!
I once saw Boulez conduct Ravel's Le tombeau de Couperin several years
ago at Carnegie Hall. The man just waved his hands gently and out came
all this exquisitely played music.
snoops...@hotmail.com
"Greg M. Silverman" <g...@mail.cccs.umn.edu> wrote:
I already listed the String Quartet in F. And yeah, everything he wrote
was great. I like Larry, have you seen that Gershwin special with him? I
think Toots Thielemans is a better improviser though. Who's that other
guy,something Bonfiglio, plays all these super hard harmonica concertos.
snoops...@hotmail.com
Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
What's "these days"? I heard Jimmy Levine (surely you consider him a
serious conductor and The Met Orchestra, well, they can make Berg's
"Wozzeck" sound enjoyable) and The Met Orchestra do Ravel's orch. at
Carnegie maybe four or five years back, it was a performance I'll never
forget, they nearly blew the roof off ! I have the CD on Deutsche
Grammophon coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and it's a very
exciting performance with incredible sonics. I always have to remember
to turn down the amp a bit before "The Hut of Baba Yaga" or I may blow
my expensive KEF speakers. I heard Masur do his favorite orchestration,
Alexander Gorchakov's, last year at Lincoln Center but I wasn't
impressed at all, maybe it was the dry acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall. I
have Ashkenazi's version, I'll give it a closer listen. I think there's
like 30 something orchestrations of this piece.
Maybe the original piano is the way to go. I like Horowitz's classic
performance, itself an exploration of the orchestral colors one can draw
out of the piano with a gifted touch and attack.
Angelo Gilardino
"Reza (www.rezamusic.com)" <gan...@dtc.ch> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3e46f3b6$1...@news.tiscalinet.ch...
Ravel is a great composer and I like his music very much, as showed in my
own music: Studio n. 6 "Alborada" (Omaggio a Maurice Ravel), Studio n. 24
"Suite" (Tombeau de Maurice Ravel).
A curiosity: I never saw a photo of Ravel smiling, except a private one,
where the composer is sitting at the piano with Vaslav Nijinskji: both are
smiling.
AG
Terlizzi
The Chanson Madecasses and The Sonata for violin and cello!
mark
Greg M. Silverman
>I already listed the String Quartet in F.
>
oops, sorry!
>And yeah, everything he wrote was great.
>
there you go!
>I like Larry, have you seen that Gershwin special with him? I
>think Toots Thielemans is a better improviser though.
>
I agree about Toots being better improvising wise, buut Larry was quite
a character, well so is Toots, who's still going strong way into his
late 80s.
>Who's that other guy,something Bonfiglio, plays all these super hard harmonica concertos.
>
He should be known as Robert Vibratofiglio... he's also quite a dick-for
and full opf himslef to the point of thinking he's Dog's gift to music!
:-) I preferred the late Tommy Reilly... no schmaltz and quite
incredible. He started as a violinist too.. gave the Villa Lobo concerto
a much more authentic reading than Mr. Vibratofiglio!
But, that's just me...
gms--
Paul Magnussen
> A curiosity: I never saw a photo of Ravel smiling, except a private one,
Hmm. Leonard Cohen must have studied with him.
Paul Magnussen
To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
Matanya Ophee
>What's "these days"? I heard Jimmy Levine (surely you consider him a
>serious conductor
Of course I do. His Verdi Requiem that I heard in Boston so many years
ago, with Scotto and Pavarotti, was perhaps the most emotionally
drenching concert I have ever attended, before, or since.
> and The Met Orchestra, well, they can make Berg's
>"Wozzeck" sound enjoyable) and The Met Orchestra do Ravel's orch. at
>Carnegie maybe four or five years back, it was a performance I'll never
>forget, they nearly blew the roof off ! I have the CD on Deutsche
>Grammophon coupled with Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and it's a very
>exciting performance with incredible sonics.
I am sure it was. There is always an exception to any generalization.
> I always have to remember
>to turn down the amp a bit before "The Hut of Baba Yaga" or I may blow
>my expensive KEF speakers. I heard Masur do his favorite orchestration,
>Alexander Gorchakov's, last year at Lincoln Center but I wasn't
>impressed at all, maybe it was the dry acoustics of Avery Fisher Hall.
Or it could be Masur...
> I
>have Ashkenazi's version, I'll give it a closer listen. I think there's
>like 30 something orchestrations of this piece.
>Maybe the original piano is the way to go.
Now you are talking!
You see, this was the required piece for my wife's graduation from the
Leningrad Conservatory. I trust her judgement on this question
implicitly.
JonLor Pro
>From: "Reza \(www.rezamusic.com\)"
>Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003
> ...what do you think of other Ravel music / Ravel as a composer...
Ravel is the greatest. Of course, one of my definitions of a great composer
is that one is convinced, while listening to the works of a proffered subject
composer, that he is the greatest. Hence my subjective definition of a great
composer- to be convincing beyond raproach.
One particular moment comes to mind- in the midst of one of his piano pieces,
a particularly bluesy moment- one of a set of works whose collective title
escapes me at the right now, but whos individual title transalates as " a boat
on the ocean"- Oh, to play guitar yet have pianistic parameters within ones
grasp! (even my eleven strings are insufficient)
Quote Berlioz all you want; there are times when the piano/guitar
juxtoposition makes one despair.
JonLorPro@aol
Greg M. Silverman
>
> >Subject: Ravel
> >From: "Reza \(www.rezamusic.com\)"
> >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003
>
> > ...what do you think of other Ravel music / Ravel as a composer...
> One particular moment comes to mind- in the midst of one of his piano pieces,
> a particularly bluesy moment- one of a set of works whose collective title
> escapes me at the right now, but whos individual title transalates as " a boat
> on the ocean"-
are you quite sane?
gms--
JonLor Pro
>From: "Greg M. Silverman"
>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>are you quite sane?
>
Yes, I believe I am. What do you question from what I wrote? I wouldn't have
thought that my re-entry into this group, innocuous though I had thought it
was, would have so immediately ocassioned controversy.
JonLorPro@aol
Greg M. Silverman
Mea cupla! As Larry would say "I didn't mean any harm!" I just thought
your comment was funny in an ironic way: having said your favorite
Ravcel moment and not being able to recall what it was. I didn't mean
anything negative from it, bad choice of question on my part. Perhaps
meant somehting more like "great Alzheimer's moment" or less innocuous
like "so rgeat you can't remember the title" or something equally
sophomoric and silly... anyway, about your re-entry: I didn't even know
you left. Anyway, I'll just shut up for now and go slink off in the
corner with my guitar for a while.
gms--
Bob Ashley
Greg Silverman wrote:
> >are you quite sane?
> Yes, I believe I am. What do you question from what I wrote? I wouldn't have
> thought that my re-entry into this group, innocuous though I had thought it
> was, would have so immediately ocassioned controversy.
You're so badly out of practice, JonLor, my goodness! In your absence, a
couple of wiley veterans, the two Johns, Sloan and Wasak, have developed a
few special strategies for controversy control.
Either of the two Johns are much better equipped to name and explain than
I. I think one of them goes something like, "I think I'll tend to skip
this thread..." Help me out here John(s)! Learning them is rather more
involved than this cursory look would imply.
One or the other may be available for private lessons.
:-)
***
rib
snoops...@hotmail.com
jonl...@aol.com (JonLor Pro) wrote:
> >Subject: Ravel
> >From: "Reza \(www.rezamusic.com\)"
> >Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2003
>
>
> One particular moment comes to mind- in the midst of one of his piano
> pieces,
> a particularly bluesy moment- one of a set of works whose collective title
> escapes me at the right now, but whos individual title transalates as " a
> boat
> on the ocean"-
> JonLorPro@aol
I believe you're speaking of "Une barque sur l'ocean" which is part of
a larger work called "Miroirs" (1904) and yes , there's that bluesy
Gershwinesque melody abut 2/3 rds of the way thrugh. One of Ravel's
great "water" pieces along with "Ondine" from "Gaspard de la nuit"
and his first masterpiece, "Jeux d'eau". There's an orchestral version
of Una barque but the piano is much better somehow, the percussiveness
of the keys coupled with the sustain pedal give it the raindrop watery
sound. Speaking of Gershwin and Ravel, does everybody know that Gershwin
asked Ravel for lessons to which he supposedly replied "Why be a second
rate Ravel when you can be a first rate Gershwin" And that he asked
Stravinsky too for lessons and Stravinsky asked him (Gershwin) how much
money he made and after Gershwin told him Stravinsky replied "Then I
should be taking lessons with you"
JonLor Pro
> "Greg M. Silverman"
>Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>JonLor Pro wrote:
>>
>> >Re: Ravel
>> >From: "Greg M. Silverman"
>> >Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>>
>> >are you quite sane?
>> >
>>
>> Yes, I believe I am. What do you question from what I wrote? I wouldn't
>have
>> thought that my re-entry into this group, innocuous though I had thought it
>> was, would have so immediately ocassioned controversy.
>
>Mea cupla! As Larry would say "I didn't mean any harm!" I just thought
>your comment was funny in an ironic way: having said your favorite
>Ravcel moment and not being able to recall what it was..... Anyway, I'll just
shut up for now and go slink off in the
>corner with my guitar for a while.
gms--
>
Nah, don't do that- looking at my own post I still maintain I'm not insane,
but do admit to being in an temporary and ill-advised state of mind when I
wrote the first post and when I responded to yours. Otherwise I would have
been able to determine that what I had in mind was indeed "Une barque sur
l'ocean" from "Miroirs", as snoopsdog25 correctly ascertained elsewhere in the
thread.
I also should have cited one of Berlioz's well known castigations of the
piano that guitarists are fond of quoting ("when I utter the name of this dread
instrument my feet come upon volcanic ground..." or something like that) in
order to clarify the reference to him at the end.
Thanks to Larry, MO, and Barney Ribble for your salutations.
JonLorPro@aol
Terlizzi
Salvatore Sciarrino called "Anamorfosi" that superimposes Ravel's "Jeaux
d'eau" and the song 'Singing in the Rain" . The piece ends with a quote
of "Une barque sur l'ocean"
Terlizzi
mark
Bob Ashley
> Nah, don't do that- looking at my own post I still maintain I'm not insane,
> but do admit to being in an temporary and ill-advised state of mind when I
> wrote the first post and when I responded to yours. Otherwise I would have
> been able to determine that what I had in mind was indeed "Une barque sur
> l'ocean" from "Miroirs", as snoopsdog25 correctly ascertained elsewhere in the
> thread.
> I also should have cited one of Berlioz's well known castigations of the
> piano that guitarists are fond of quoting ("when I utter the name of this dread
> instrument my feet come upon volcanic ground..." or something like that) in
> order to clarify the reference to him at the end.
> Thanks to Larry, MO, and Barney Ribble for your salutations.
Okay, what's the deal here, JonLor?
Larry gets summoned by his real name.
MO stands for some highfalutin latinate phrase, 'modus operandi'.
And I live in a megalithic bungalow next to the Flinstones?
What's the deal here?
:-)
***
rib
Greg M. Silverman
>I probably should have mentioned that "Anamorfosi is a piano piece
>mark
>
>
well, we know, unfortuantely, that he, Ravel that is, never wrote for
guitar. Sigh.... :-(
gms--
Greg M. Silverman
>>Re: Ravel
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>"Greg M. Silverman"
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>JonLor Pro wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Re: Ravel
>>>>From: "Greg M. Silverman"
>>>>Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>are you quite sane?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Yes, I believe I am. What do you question from what I wrote? I wouldn't
>>>
>>>
>>have
>>
>>
>>>thought that my re-entry into this group, innocuous though I had thought it
>>>was, would have so immediately ocassioned controversy.
>>>
>>>
>>Mea cupla! As Larry would say "I didn't mean any harm!" I just thought
>>your comment was funny in an ironic way: having said your favorite
>>Ravcel moment and not being able to recall what it was..... Anyway, I'll just
>>
>>
>shut up for now and go slink off in the
>
>
>>corner with my guitar for a while.
>>
>>
>
>gms--
>
>
>
> Nah, don't do that- looking at my own post I still maintain I'm not insane,
>but do admit to being in an temporary and ill-advised state of mind when I
>wrote the first post and when I responded to yours.
>
Insane, ill-advised or just plain whatever, I did sit in the corner last
night and read through several of the "Valses Poeticas" by Granados.
Some very awkward fingerings, but this is piano music, with some very
nice chordal voicings, that really does work on guitar. So, my penance
for being a first-class-loser-of-a-jerk was not too bad. ;-)
>Otherwise I would have
>been able to determine that what I had in mind was indeed "Une barque sur
>l'ocean" from "Miroirs", as snoopsdog25 correctly ascertained elsewhere in the
>thread.
>
well, whatever the case, from yours and Snoops' description, this is a
must hear piece. any recommended recordings?
> I also should have cited one of Berlioz's well known castigations of the
>piano that guitarists are fond of quoting ("when I utter the name of this dread
>instrument my feet come upon volcanic ground..." or something like that) in
>order to clarify the reference to him at the end.
>
I like that one...
gms--
Matanya Ophee
>> Thanks to Larry, MO, and Barney Ribble for your salutations.
>
>Okay, what's the deal here, JonLor?
>
>Larry gets summoned by his real name.
>
>MO stands for some highfalutin latinate phrase, 'modus operandi'.
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment.
>
>And I live in a megalithic bungalow next to the Flinstones?
>
>What's the deal here?
Should be obvious. John is one of three ex-students of MO on this NG.
He took one lesson and decided against taking any more. But for him, I
am a real person. You are only text. And since manipualting text is
wehat you do best, he took your example.
John Wasak
I'm saying nothing. Wouldn't want to cause a controversy.
JW
John Wasak
> JonLor Pro wrote:
> >>Re: Ravel
> >been able to determine that what I had in mind was indeed "Une barque sur
> >l'ocean" from "Miroirs", as snoopsdog25 correctly ascertained elsewhere
in the
> >thread.
> >
>
> well, whatever the case, from yours and Snoops' description, this is a
> must hear piece. any recommended recordings?
>
The piano is where Ravel shines, glistens, glows, sparkles, and __________
(put your own incandescent descriptive here.) Possibly the best modern
version of Ravel's complete solo piano works is the 2 CD set on London by
Jean-Yves Thibaudet titled "Ravel: L'oeuvre Pour Piano Seul".
The other recommendation is stay away from guitarists playing Ravel!
JW
Matanya Ophee
>The piano is where Ravel shines, glistens, glows, sparkles, and __________
>(put your own incandescent descriptive here.) Possibly the best modern
>version of Ravel's complete solo piano works is the 2 CD set on London by
>Jean-Yves Thibaudet titled "Ravel: L'oeuvre Pour Piano Seul".
The other one is Ravel playing the piano himself. I have an LP
reproduced from piano rolls.
Bob Ashley
rib rote:
> >MO stands for some highfalutin latinate phrase, 'modus operandi'.
MO wrote:
> Thanks. I appreciate the compliment.
Well, I figured you deserved better than, say, M-obil O-il. Too unctuous
for you!
> >And I live in a megalithic bungalow next to the Flinstones?
> >
> >What's the deal here?
>
> Should be obvious. John is one of three ex-students of MO on this NG.
> He took one lesson and decided against taking any more. But for him, I
> am a real person. You are only text. And since manipualting text is
> wehat you do best, he took your example.
You mean like my face just splapped with a boomerang cream pie?
******************************
rib
Scott Daughtrey
Matanya Ophee wrote:
Ushag veg ruy ny moanee coo,
Ny moanee coo, ny moanee coo,
Ushag veg rny ny moanee coo,
C'raad chaddil oo riyr 'syn oie ?
Chaddil mish riyr er baare y dress,
Er baare y dress, er baare y dress,
Chaddil mish riyr er baare y dress,
As ugh ! my cadley cha treih !
Scott
JonLor Pro
>Bob Ashley
I confess to having thought of you as "Barney Ribble" for quite some time.
Though you obviously are a much greater poet and philosopher than the
un-Ribbilized Barney, your leavening sense of the hilarious seems to stem from
the same amiable source as does that of your here nominated ancient
predecessor, whether directed at or with the prevailing sensibilities of, in
his case Freds bluster of the moment, in yours the group or thread into which
you interject your riant, gently puncturing wit.
Of course, if I knew what you looked like, and were to discover that, by any
chance, you happened to be blest atop your dome with a curliform hirsute
abundance, my thanks instead could have gone out to
Larry, MO, and -----?
JonLorPro@aol
JonLor Pro
>From: "Greg M. Silverman"
>Tue, 11 Feb 2003
>JonLor Pro wrote:
>
>>>Re: Ravel
>....what I had in mind was indeed "Une barque sur
>>l'ocean" from "Miroirs"....,
>..this is a
>must hear piece. any recommended recordings?...
I can only recommend the one I know, a recording of all of Ravels solo piano
works made many years ago by Abby Simon. Marvelous playing throughout.
JonLorPro@aol
Bob Ashley
> I confess to having thought of you as "Barney Ribble" for quite some time.
> Though you obviously are a much greater poet and philosopher than the
> un-Ribbilized Barney, your leavening sense of the hilarious seems to stem from
> the same amiable source as does that of your here nominated ancient
> predecessor, whether directed at or with the prevailing sensibilities of, in
> his case Freds bluster of the moment, in yours the group or thread into which
> you interject your riant, gently puncturing wit.
> Of course, if I knew what you looked like, and were to discover that, by any
> chance, you happened to be blest atop your dome with a curliform hirsute
> abundance, my thanks instead could have gone out to
> Larry, MO, and -----?
and __ X __.
And thanks for the generous compliments. I'll be sure to add them to my
already overbrimmed, compliment storage facility--a No. 3 thimble.
:-)
***
rib
Sam Culotta
opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed, most
of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as some
of what is now called "New Age".
While I'm certain it is masterfully composed and arranged, and while I'm
fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master orchestrators
and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp and
flute trills.
I will admit to appreciating the piano music a bit more.
So, there you have it. I wonder if there are others of you who are equally
unamoured
Sam
--
Sam
"Reza (www.rezamusic.com)" <gan...@dtc.ch> wrote in message
news:3e46f3b6$1...@news.tiscalinet.ch...
> Maestro, what do you think of other Ravel music / Ravel as a composer /
other than the
> Bolero which I know you don't like.
>
> Many thanks
> Reza
>
>
>
Gary Pierazzi
was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for
a shop that has a good selection of classical guitars and/or
music.
Thanks,
Gary
Steve Perry
<pier...@pacbell.net> wrote:
Gary --
Portland is not exactly a hotbed of classical guitar supplies. Most of
the big shops have a few instruments on hand. Portland Music Company
has a fair selection of sheet music. Most fun place to visit would
probably be Artichoke Music, 3130 SE Hawthorne (east side of the
Willamette River, which divides the city). It's a mostly-acoustic shop,
folk music and a lot of finger-pickers, but they do have some nice
classical instruments from time to time, and the staff is terrific.
There are some pretty good luthiers in the area, two of whom make very
nice classicals:
Jeffrey R. Elliott
2812 S. E. 37th Ave.
Portland, Oregon 97202
Woodley White
02010 SW Palatine Hill Road
Portland, OR 97219
Maybe they might be willing to show you around if you give them a call.
--
Steve
RC
Hi Gary,
Your best bet to check out instruments would probably be Pioneer
Music:
http://www.pioneermusicco.com/classical.asp
As for music, you can try Sheet Music Service:
http://www.sheetmusicservice.com/Default.asp?shopky=9668084979056
Another Luthier that I know you would love to talk to, is Kerry Char.
He can be reached at 503-289-5980.
Have fun, hope you enjoy Portland!
Ron
Greg M. Silverman
>I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
>opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed, most
>of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as some
>of what is now called "New Age".
>
oh dear... not good... what do impresisonist paintings do for you?
>While I'm certain it is masterfully composed and arranged, and while I'm
>fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master orchestrators
>and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
>Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp and
>flute trills.
>
hmmm... somehow equating these masters to the likes of Yanni or Kitaro
is quite distressing. Perhaps you need a session with Dr. Freud to
discover the soucre of your aural-confusion. ;-)
Now is it just the French impressionists, like Ravel and Debussy, or
would you include others like the English impressionists, ala Delius, et
al.? Just curious.
>I will admit to appreciating the piano music a bit more.
>
Ahhhhh... so there is some hope!
>So, there you have it. I wonder if there are others of you who are equally unamoured
>
A rat's-assed chance in hell, my friend! :-) (I think more people are
put off by the French post impressionists, like Satie, Poulenc and
Milhaud, given this music's alleged intellectual nature... again, which
I don't understand -- while people dertainly do have a right to not like
something, they are dead wrong! ;-) )
gms--
John Wasak
> Sam Culotta wrote:
>
> >I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
> >opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed,
most
> >of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as
some
> >of what is now called "New Age".
> >While I'm certain it is masterfully composed and arranged, and while I'm
> >fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master
orchestrators
> >and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
> >Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp
and
> >flute trills.
> >
>
> hmmm... somehow equating these masters to the likes of Yanni or Kitaro
> is quite distressing. Perhaps you need a session with Dr. Freud to
> discover the soucre of your aural-confusion. ;-)
>
Ya, Greg, zis iss Dr. Freud here und I could not help but notice zat here,
once again, in zis RMCG newsgroup, my services could be of help. Let me
just say zat even from here on ze other side, which is vhere I am, I am
still keeping my eye on zis NG. I haff discovered zat zere are a good many
personalities zat could be studied here! Ja, zis iss twue.
Now, let us proceed, as you haff suggested, to zis case of vhat you call
Sam's aural confusion. I believe zat you are somewhat incorrect here, Greg,
to label Sam's problem as one of "aural confusion". You see, zere iss
actually no "confusion" here at all, since Sam's statement reveals zat he
knows very well ze difference between Ravel und Yanni. Vhat vee haff here
zen iss not a matter of 'confusion' but a matter of *conflict*. Ya, zis is
twue. You see, Sam is actually _conflicted_ in his appreciative abilities.
On ze one hand he knows zat Ravel iss a master orchestrator und colorist,
yet, as he listens, his ears are hearing zis vacuous New Age music. Vhat vee
haff here zen is ze classic case of a pre-linked determinism. Here, ze
conscious understanding, ze one zat understands one iss hearing ze masterful
music of Ravel, iss being overridden by a subconscious motivational delusion
zat one iss hearing New Age Music. In zis case, Sam has already determined
zat when he hears Ravel he will hear vacuous New Age sounds. Let me state
unequivocally zat such a predetemination has very deep roots!
My analysis iss zat Sam iss suffering from ze long-term effects of infancy
trauma. Ja, zis iss twue. I believe zat vhile he vass still in ze crib,
Sam had a rattle abruptly taken from him vhen on zat occasion, his mother,
who vass listening to Bolero at ze time, said "Sammy, will you stop making
that racket?... I can't hear the music! " Und vhen Sam didn't stop his
mother walked over to ze crib und yanked ze rattle out of Sam's hand. Zis
action caused no end to little Sammy's crying und so Sam's mother, realizing
zat hearing Bolero at zat moment vass to be quite impossible, decided to do
ze vacuuming instead - und now, ze sound of ze Ravel Bolero vass replaced by
ze vacuous sounds of ze vacuum. Zat action, of course vas verrrry
significant! Zis incident, zis one of musical replacement, has unknowingly
caused him to become quite conflicted whenever he hears music by Ravel und
alzo, by extension, ze other Impressionists.
Ach!... Look at ze time! Und it is always flying, Ja? Vell, I'm afraid zat
ziss iss all ze time I haff today for ze analysis as I haff an appointment
to meet mit Maurice Ravel himself in twenty minutes at his studio located
on ze Heavenly Highway. I haff noticed zat Ravel never smiles in ze
photogaphs taken of him und I vish to get to ze bottom of why zis iss so!
Ja!
Now I must go...Ach!, only twenty minutes....zis vill be tough!...ze traffic
on ze Heavenly Highway at zis time can be murder!
Guten Tag,
Dr. Freud
(JW)
Sam Culotta
"Greg M. Silverman" <gmsN...@NO.umn.edu> wrote in message
news:b2gf3e$9oe$1...@lenny.tc.umn.edu...
> Sam Culotta wrote:
>
> >I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
> >opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed,
most
> >of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as
some
> >of what is now called "New Age".
> >
>
> oh dear... not good... what do impresisonist paintings do for you?
>
work for the aural cavity. May be MY inability to enjoy aural color.
> >While I'm certain it is masterfully composed and arranged, and while I'm
> >fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master
orchestrators
> >and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
> >Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp
and
> >flute trills.
> >
>
> hmmm... somehow equating these masters to the likes of Yanni or Kitaro
> is quite distressing. Perhaps you need a session with Dr. Freud to
> discover the soucre of your aural-confusion. ;-)
>
> Now is it just the French impressionists, like Ravel and Debussy, or
> would you include others like the English impressionists, ala Delius, et
> al.? Just curious.
>
No, my dis-amourement extends to Respighi (sp?) and others. I can stand
small portions and might be able to abide it on headphones while Dr. Steve
is drilling on me, but otherwise...nah.
> >I will admit to appreciating the piano music a bit more.
> >
>
> Ahhhhh... so there is some hope!
>
>
> >So, there you have it. I wonder if there are others of you who are
equally unamoured
> >
>
> A rat's-assed chance in hell, my friend! :-) (I think more people are
> put off by the French post impressionists, like Satie, Poulenc and
> Milhaud, given this music's alleged intellectual nature... again, which
> I don't understand -- while people dertainly do have a right to not like
> something, they are dead wrong! ;-) )
>
> gms--
>
Funny you should mention Satie and Poulenc, I really enjoy the former and
somewhat enjoy what I've heard (and played) of the latter.
Now, let us stand by and see just how much of a chance that rat's ass has
around here :-)
Sam
Sam Culotta
the answer!
> My analysis iss zat Sam iss suffering from ze long-term effects of infancy
> trauma. Ja, zis iss twue. I believe zat vhile he vass still in ze crib,
> Sam had a rattle abruptly taken from him vhen on zat occasion, his mother,
> who vass listening to Bolero at ze time, said "Sammy, will you stop making
> that racket?... I can't hear the music! " Und vhen Sam didn't stop his
> mother walked over to ze crib und yanked ze rattle out of Sam's hand <
geschnipped>
Bolero... Mama...Bolero.... Mama... oh dear Gott.. I've my Id tangled in my
Mama's bangles.. Oh shit, oh dear!
But I actually LIKE, Bolero... it's one of the few pieces I can enjoy,
(preferably with the aid of a hallucigenic).
Still, it could be some sort of twisted referential thing whereby the
naughty pleasure invoked by Bolero gets transformed into a massive glob of
guilt that blocks my capacity to enjoy the trilling delicacy of other
Impressionist music. Hmmmm..
>I haff noticed zat Ravel never smiles in ze
> photogaphs taken of him und I vish to get to ze bottom of why zis iss so!<
Think about it... he didn't only compose the music, he had to play it and
hear it day in and day out.
Jeesh... what kind of psychoananlyst are you!?
Sam
--tony--
I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
> Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp and
> flute trills.
>
> I will admit to appreciating the piano music a bit more.
>
> > Sam
>
>
>
Sam, have you heard the piano concerti?
I consider them to be among the great works of the 20th century.
Is Ravel an impressionist? Whatever that means....
Best wishes
Tony Conway
Sam Culotta
news:c3a037f8.03021...@posting.google.com...
Can't say as I recall exactly, Tony. Fair enough question though; I'll make
it a point to give them a try.
Sam
John Wasak
[much snip]
>
> Jeesh... what kind of psychoananlyst are you!?
>
Vhy, ze Viennese kind, of course!
Guten Abend und Adieu,
Dr. Freud
PGS
Yes, and I feel this way about baroken music. Jes look at Bach. 18 gazillion
little bastards running around - OOPS, I mean children... his tights just a
smidge _too_ tight (no pun intended). pointy toed high heels a bit snug and
uncomfortable while running about on those cobblestones. funny itchy powdery
wig that is always somehow crooked. Face powder just a little TOO white. I
can see clearly now, the rain is gone...
S.
Greg M. Silverman
you don't like other barqoue, or just Bach? What about Sanz, or Vivaldi
on original instruments? Sanz on Barqoue guitar is sooooo bloody cool it
makes me cry! Or, listen to Romanesca (Nigel North, Andrew Manze and
John Toll) playing the Manchester sonatas of Vivaldi and you would
really go nuts. This is improvisation at it's finest. Or check out the
violin sonatas of Pandolfi. Magnifique! Baroque ain't just JSB, not that
there's anything wrong with him since I love him, it's just but one side
of the baroquen consort.
gms--
Steven Bornfeld
Sam Culotta wrote:
(snip)
> I love Impressionist paintings. What works for the eye doesn't necessarily
> work for the aural cavity. May be MY inability to enjoy aural color.
>
Uh-oh!
Steve
Sam Culotta
I only unravelled it but you done gone an tore that sucker up.
And a happy Valentine's Day to you too : o)
--
Sam
"PGS" <phillipsgu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E4C5CA5...@attbi.com...
Greg M. Silverman
>
> Now you've gone and done it, Sherri..you've barouquin Greg's heart.
> I only unravelled it but you done gone an tore that sucker up.
what's in your secret compartmnent these days anyway? ;-)
Yes in full color is always good. I recommend Yessongs all the way
thro9ugh. The full spectrum of aural stimulation to be had! Someone told
me this, of course. I have no first hand experience whatsoever.
gms--
PGS
gms wrote:
it was hard for me to stay awake during this post of yours just _mentioning_ it.
<yawn>.
s.
PGS
S.
PGS
> "Greg M. Silverman" <gmsN...@NO.umn.edu> wrote in message
> news:b2gf3e$9oe$1...@lenny.tc.umn.edu...
> > Sam Culotta wrote:
> >
> > >I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
> > >opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed,
> most
> > >of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as
> some
> > >of what is now called "New Age".
> > >
> >
> > oh dear... not good... what do impresisonist paintings do for you?
> >
> I love Impressionist paintings. What works for the eye doesn't necessarily
> work for the aural cavity. May be MY inability to enjoy aural color.
JW's gonna get us, but eh, I can't stand impressionist paintings!!! But I
like impressionist music....hmmmm. What was it about that rattle again? heh.
I like them. Mm-hmm. I could give a rat's rear end about Renoir or Monet,
though...
S.
Sam Culotta
> JW's gonna get us, but eh, I can't stand impressionist paintings!!! But I
> like impressionist music....hmmmm. What was it about that rattle again?
heh.<
Now, ain't this a kick in the ass? You see, this is what makes the world go
'round and 'round and 'round.
Sam
PGS
this is all about the love! baroken hearts go hand-in-hand with our topic.
won't you be mine?
s.
PGS
Sam Culotta wrote:
among other things. :-D
s.
John Wasak
> Sammy wrote:
>
> > "Greg M. Silverman" <gmsN...@NO.umn.edu> wrote in message
> > news:b2gf3e$9oe$1...@lenny.tc.umn.edu...
> > > Sam Culotta wrote:
> > >
> > > >I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
> > > >opinion, but I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music,
indeed,
> > most
> > > >of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me
as
> > some
> > > >of what is now called "New Age".
> > > >
> > >
> > > oh dear... not good... what do impresisonist paintings do for you?
> > >
> > I love Impressionist paintings. What works for the eye doesn't
necessarily
> > work for the aural cavity. May be MY inability to enjoy aural color.
>
> JW's gonna get us, but eh, I can't stand impressionist paintings!!! But I
> like impressionist music....hmmmm. What was it about that rattle again?
heh.
>
Well, S., dropping the Freudian posture for a moment, I have to say that
this intriguingly touches on the relationship between sight (visual art) and
sound (music) and the possibility, or impossibility, of a strict parallelism
(or a lesser alignment) between those two worlds. This sort of thing always
interests me. I know that when I see an Abstract Expressionist painting by,
let's say, Mark Rothko, and then hear something like Morton Feldman's
'Rothko Chapel', (even without the obvious prodding of that title) I'm
certain that I'm "hearing" a Rothko painting! But when I hear Ravel,
practically never do I see Monet et.al. Though I do like Ravel - primarily
the piano music.
Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of visual
art to music?
JW
Sam Culotta
> Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of
visual
> art to music?>
This really is a fascinating subject, and not only as it relates to visual
and music, but all art forms eg. Gothic architecture/ Gothic lit...But
realizing the vastness of the subject and that the specific interest here is
music, it's best to restrict it to that.
Sherri's and my polar responses to Impressionism only scratch the surface of
this subject. I can't explain why the music leaves me cold and the art
excites me, nor can I imagine how Sherri can find Baroque boring. I never
tire of the beauty of Bach, Vivaldi, Scarlatti, Haydn and Weiss, to name
only a few. But here, I also enjoy Barouque architecture.
I love everything Romantic and can easily relate the music to the poetry.
In fact, now that I think of it, it may only be Impressionism that fails to
bridge the two for me.
Anyway, I have to leave for a few days, but I look forward to returning and
picking this thread up. I'm sure there will be some interesting thoughts
expressed.
Happy Love Day to all..
Sam
Angelo Gilardino
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3O_2a.695$_c6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Well, S., dropping the Freudian posture for a moment, I have to say that
> this intriguingly touches on the relationship between sight (visual art)
and
> sound (music) and the possibility, or impossibility, of a strict
parallelism
> (or a lesser alignment) between those two worlds. This sort of thing
always
> interests me. I know that when I see an Abstract Expressionist painting
by,
> let's say, Mark Rothko, and then hear something like Morton Feldman's
> 'Rothko Chapel', (even without the obvious prodding of that title) I'm
> certain that I'm "hearing" a Rothko painting! But when I hear Ravel,
> practically never do I see Monet et.al. Though I do like Ravel -
primarily
> the piano music.
>
> Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of
visual
> art to music?
>
>
> JW
Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
AG
Alison Causton
"Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote:
...
>>
>> Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of
> visual
>> art to music?
>>
>>
>> JW
>
> Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
>
> AG
>
Ralph Vaughan Williams and John Constable?
ac
Bob Ashley
Maybe Sam likes his 'aural color', splashier, crisp, like, say, John
Philip Sousa. And Sousa was a contemporary of French Impressionists.
You could say Sousa is what happens when you blow impressionism through
the valves of 76 trombones leading a big parade.
:-)
***
rib
Steven Bornfeld
PGS wrote:
> Play-Doh Drill n' Fill Kit to the rescue!!!! Magenta!!!!
>
> S.
I actually liked Sam's metaphor. I'm not sure I was ever that
comfortable with use of the same term "impressionism" for both visual
and musical arts. It implies the philosophies, techniques, etc. were
parallel or related. Of course they were contemporary, and the guys
probably knew each other. Maybe it was the boys' club.
Steve
John Wasak
I'd say more so with Debussy than Ravel. But when it comes to
Impressionistic visual art in general, I think the link between visual and
aural is greater for me in the paintings that have less specific forms and
details - probably something like Monet's Water Lillies or Houses of
Paliament are more Debussian to me than something like The Regatta at
Argenteuil. For me overall, with most art in general, it's the form - less
detailed always seems to conjure up musical associations with me. I suppose
for this reason more abstact forms of visual art lend themselves more easily
to a visual/aural link. Certainly the New York School of Abstract
Expressionists - Rothko, de Kooning, Pollack, Guston, Kline - seem musical
to me and I can make associations with these to quite a bit of modern 20th
C. music. Interestingly enough though, as Sam has already commented,
Baroque music with all its details and intricacies and curlie-cues conjures
up the highly detailed surfaces of Baroque architecture.
When you, Angelo, have your ommagios to visual artists in your works are you
thinking in specifics or generalities?
JW
William D Clinger
> ...I don't find Ravel to be my cup of tea. His music, indeed, most
> of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as some
> of what is now called "New Age".
>
> fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master orchestrators
> and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
> Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp and
> flute trills.
I confess I feel much the same way about Ravel's music.
> I will admit to appreciating the piano music a bit more.
Whereas I'm not so fond of piano music in general. For example,
I prefer Ravel's orchestration of Pictures at an Exhibition to
the original.
On the other hand, I'm fond of the vocal music of Faure and
(later) Messiaen. So I don't knock Impressionist music in
general, but then I don't knock New Age music in general either.
I don't remember how baroque music found its way into this
thread, but I quite like baroque music, especially Carolan,
and generally prefer it to classical.
So all this is just my personal taste, or lack thereof. I
think many people feel some pressure to align their taste with
prevailing critical winds, lest they be thought unsophisticated.
Since the public impression of the prevailing winds is usually
decades out of date, this is one cause of the conservatism that
serious musicians sometimes deplore.
In other words, I think it's ok to like Ravel, and it's ok not
to like Ravel. Similarly for Bach and Avril Lavigne.
Will
Greg M. Silverman
>gms wrote:
>
>
>>you don't like other barqoue, or just Bach? What about Sanz, or Vivaldi
>>on original instruments? Sanz on Barqoue guitar is sooooo bloody cool it
>>makes me cry! Or, listen to Romanesca (Nigel North, Andrew Manze and
>>John Toll) playing the Manchester sonatas of Vivaldi and you would
>>really go nuts. This is improvisation at it's finest. Or check out the
>>violin sonatas of Pandolfi. Magnifique! Baroque ain't just JSB, not that
>>there's anything wrong with him since I love him, it's just but one side
>>of the baroquen consort.
>>
>>gms--
>>
>>
>
>it was hard for me to stay awake during this post of yours just _mentioning_ it.
><yawn>.
>
sigh.... well, whadya gonna do! me, I overslept this morning, wonder if
my post had anything to do with it? :-)
boringly yours,
me--
John Wasak
> "Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote:
> > Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
> >
> > AG
> >
>
> Ralph Vaughan Williams and John Constable?
> ac
>
Ralph Vaughan Williams and John Constable?.....uh, no, no, can't say I feel
any affinity there.
Ya know, looking at this now, it's all starting to look like some kind of
Rorschach test. ;-)
Maybe I'll ty one...How about Albert Pinkham Ryder and Charles Ives?
;-)
JW
Scott Daughtrey
John Wasak
> In other words, I think it's ok to like Ravel, and it's ok not
> to like Ravel.
>
>Similarly for Bach and Avril Lavigne.
>
But it's not ok to put them in the same sentence!
:-)
JW
John Wasak
> You could say Sousa is what happens when you blow impressionism through
> the valves of 76 trombones leading a big parade.
>
Or maybe you could say Sousa is what happens when you BLOW UP
Impressionism.
BANG! BOOM! Lots of noise.
The confetti of a shredded Renoir rains down on the parade.
;-)
JW
John Wasak
> I actually liked Sam's metaphor. I'm not sure I was ever that
> comfortable with use of the same term "impressionism" for both visual
> and musical arts. It implies the philosophies, techniques, etc. were
> parallel or related.
But some of the philosophies were similar, no? Folks like Debussy and Monet
largely looked to change what was considered the correct academic outlook of
their day on both their respective arts.
JW
Angelo Gilardino
> Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> > Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
> >
> > AG
> >
>
>
> I'd say more so with Debussy than Ravel. But when it comes to
> Impressionistic visual art in general, I think the link between visual and
> aural is greater for me in the paintings that have less specific forms and
> details - probably something like Monet's Water Lillies or Houses of
> Paliament are more Debussian to me than something like The Regatta at
> Argenteuil.
Those Monet's paintings where there is no story, no past, no future, no
narrator, only the magic present, with no cause and no effect, with no
thoughts, and where beauty is transient, almost accidental, this is much
Debussy-like, isn't it?
> When you, Angelo, have your ommagios to visual artists in your works are
you
> thinking in specifics or generalities?
I vividly recall that I was looking at their pictures as I had been inside
them, and invisible. Because you are a visual artist, and because there is
clearly this sense in some of your photographs I saw - one of them
especially - I am sure you know what I mean and I am sure you have
experimented this feel of being beyond the surface of the picture, and of
having entered the life which goes inside it. The music has been written as
a memory of these "transpositions" (?). Guitar sound is extremely suitable
to such an operation, for its sensitivity: if you are in a true control of
the buttons, you can go where you want.
AG
Joseph Raymond
> I hope this doesn't upset anyone because, really, it's only one man's
> of the music classified as Impressionist, has the same effect on me as some
> of what is now called "New Age".
>
> While I'm certain it is masterfully composed and arranged, and while I'm
> fully aware of the reputations of Ravel and Debussy as master orchestrators
> and colorists, I just can't appreciate it for more than a few minutes.
> Then, like New Age music, it begins to cloy rapidly and becomes all harp and
> flute trills.
Which piece by Ravel do you have in mind when you say it is like
cloying New Age music?
Also, I wouldn't group Ravel and Debussy together. To my mind Debussy
is an Impressionist. I don't know what to call Ravel. I can
understand someone saying that Debussy is like New Age. But I would
not say that about Ravel.
New Age music is rather amorphous, but Debussy's music has structure.
Also, it has the instantly recognizable voice of Debussy. I don't make
a regular diet of Debussy. But every time I hear his music I am struck
by the genius of it.
Anyway, it's OK if you don't like something or someone. However, among
musicians, it is good to be specific and attempt to articulate what it
is you don't like and why to your mind it is boring, cloying or
whatever. For example, recently MO read a poem by Maya Angelou which
he obviously did not like and then wrote a line by line exegisis on
it. You should do the same. Go ahead and pick one piece, tear it
apart, and give the group something to sink their teeth into.
Joe
Scott Daughtrey
Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:5T73a.1110$YU4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> > > Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
> > >
> > > AG
> > >
> >
> >
> > I'd say more so with Debussy than Ravel. But when it comes to
> > Impressionistic visual art in general, I think the link between visual and
> > aural is greater for me in the paintings that have less specific forms and
> > details - probably something like Monet's Water Lillies or Houses of
> > Paliament are more Debussian to me than something like The Regatta at
> > Argenteuil.
>
> Those Monet's paintings where there is no story, no past, no future, no
> narrator, only the magic present, with no cause and no effect, with no
> thoughts, and where beauty is transient, almost accidental, this is much
> Debussy-like, isn't it?
Pelleas et Melisande, although some may seek a more direct (visual?) link to
Maeterlinck, might well fit this feeling.
Some like Prelude a l'Apres-midi d'un Faun are clear links to Monet (thru
Mallarme), others like Nuages, Fetes, Sirenes and La Mer are very
Impressionistic in their effect. Both Debussy and Ravel were among those that
moved us from strict tonality and used very subtle shadings of dissonance,
whole-tone scales, parallel chords and other harmonic devices to bringing a real
sensuality out of music, music that can, to quote Debussy , "appeal to the
senses".
Scott
John Wasak
> "John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:5T73a.1110$YU4.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Angelo Gilardino wrote:
> > > Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
> > >
> > > AG
> > >
> >
> >
> > I'd say more so with Debussy than Ravel. But when it comes to
> > Impressionistic visual art in general, I think the link between visual
and
> > aural is greater for me in the paintings that have less specific forms
and
> > details - probably something like Monet's Water Lillies or Houses of
> > Paliament are more Debussian to me than something like The Regatta at
> > Argenteuil.
>
> Those Monet's paintings where there is no story, no past, no future, no
> narrator, only the magic present, with no cause and no effect, with no
> thoughts, and where beauty is transient, almost accidental, this is much
> Debussy-like, isn't it?
>
Yes, quite so, and well put.
>
> > When you, Angelo, have your ommagios to visual artists in your works are
> you
> > thinking in specifics or generalities?
>
> I vividly recall that I was looking at their pictures as I had been inside
> them, and invisible. Because you are a visual artist, and because there is
> clearly this sense in some of your photographs I saw - one of them
> especially - I am sure you know what I mean and I am sure you have
> experimented this feel of being beyond the surface of the picture, and of
> having entered the life which goes inside it. The music has been written
as
> a memory of these "transpositions" (?). Guitar sound is extremely
suitable
> to such an operation, for its sensitivity: if you are in a true control of
> the buttons, you can go where you want.
>
> AG
>
Yes, some images you can live in -enter the frame and step out renewed, even
some times, if you're lucky, reborn. It is quite a skill though to take the
feel and the memory of such an experience and commit it - "transposed", as
it were -to a sheet of music paper.
JW
John Wasak
The mention of Mallarme also suggests that Debussy was a Symbolist, which he
was, as well as being an Impressionist, so maybe considering Debussy's
revolutionary usage of tonal ambiguity, the usage of pedal point, unresolved
chords, dissonance, chromaticism and the like, the better term other than
Impressionism for this music is "Debussyism". I think the terms
impressionism in art, symbolism in literature, and Debussyism in music are
synonymous with each other.
And Debussy didn't only draw inspiration from the acknowledged figures of
visual Impressionism like Monet,etc. but from an earlier painter who was
painting in a very impressionistic style - JMW Turner, as well as the
Japanese artist Hokusai.
For myself though, I'd have to say that if I were to put the perfect
soundtrack to a series of slides of Impressionist paintings, that soundtrack
would be the piano music of Gabriel Faure. No music seems to fit the spirit
of Impressionist art better for me than this. To hear Faure in maybe
something like Nocturne No. 6, or those little individual jewels contained
in his 'Huit pieces breve" like the Capriccio or the Fantasie, or, the
astonishing surpise of the Fugue, that sounds like a Bach fugue covered in a
gossamer veil of mist, is to hear a music falling fully on the ear with
great beauty.
Yep, when I think of the music most perfectly aligned and compatible with
Impressionist art it's the piano music of Gabriel Faure.
JW
Bob Ashley
> Bob Ashley wrote:
> > You could say Sousa is what happens when you blow impressionism through
> > the valves of 76 trombones leading a big parade.
John Wasak wrote:
> Or maybe you could say Sousa is what happens when you BLOW UP
> Impressionism.
>
> BANG! BOOM! Lots of noise.
Yeah, okay, I follow.
> The confetti of a shredded Renoir rains down on the parade.
Picture your picture, JW. Sensuous, indistinct, colorful, rather
impressionistic, no?
Like when you turn on bath taps, put the plug in, blast the water. Chaos.
As soon as turn off the blasting tapes, and open the plug, chaos devolves
into the order of the vortex. A complex adaptive system.
And Renoir survives Sousa's BIG BANG.
***
rib
Angelo Gilardino
> Yes, some images you can live in -enter the frame and step out renewed,
even
> some times, if you're lucky, reborn. It is quite a skill though to take
the
> feel and the memory of such an experience and commit it - "transposed", as
> it were -to a sheet of music paper.
>
>
> JW
It is a skill that you can achieve. The point is that few people are ready
to work as much and as well it is needed for achieving it. They have too
many other pressures in their life.
AG
Angelo Gilardino
"John Wasak" <mr...@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio news:6Cf3a.1707>
> For myself though, I'd have to say that if I were to put the perfect
> soundtrack to a series of slides of Impressionist paintings, that
soundtrack
> would be the piano music of Gabriel Faure. No music seems to fit the
spirit
> of Impressionist art better for me than this. To hear Faure in maybe
> something like Nocturne No. 6, or those little individual jewels contained
> in his 'Huit pieces breve" like the Capriccio or the Fantasie, or, the
> astonishing surpise of the Fugue, that sounds like a Bach fugue covered in
a
> gossamer veil of mist, is to hear a music falling fully on the ear with
> great beauty.
>
>
> Yep, when I think of the music most perfectly aligned and compatible with
> Impressionist art it's the piano music of Gabriel Faure.
>
>
>
> JW
Totally agree. Perhaps he even more powerful inhis works for piano and
strings (trio, quartets). A great French movie-maker, Bertrand Tavernier,
has built up a film about a day in the life of an old painter, with the
chamber music of Gabriel Fauré on the background (A Sunday on the
countryside).
If you have time, throw a glance to my Studio (Berceuse) written as a homage
to Fauré. After the chordal introduction, you will see the guitaristic
evocation of a duo between cello and harp, where the guitar is treated as a
medium.
AG
AG
PGS
> PGS wrote:
>
> > JW's gonna get us, but eh, I can't stand impressionist paintings!!! But I
> > like impressionist music....hmmmm. What was it about that rattle again?
> heh.
> >
>
> Well, S., dropping the Freudian posture for a moment, I have to say that
> this intriguingly touches on the relationship between sight (visual art) and
> sound (music) and the possibility, or impossibility, of a strict parallelism
> (or a lesser alignment) between those two worlds. This sort of thing always
> interests me. I know that when I see an Abstract Expressionist painting by,
> let's say, Mark Rothko, and then hear something like Morton Feldman's
> 'Rothko Chapel', (even without the obvious prodding of that title) I'm
> certain that I'm "hearing" a Rothko painting! But when I hear Ravel,
> practically never do I see Monet et.al. Though I do like Ravel - primarily
> the piano music.
>
> Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of visual
> art to music?
I, honestly, have not tried to draw a parallel between, say, impressionist art
and impressionist music.
I do listen and look at music and art in a similar fashion (i.e., I
see/hear/feel the shapes, etc. in both). But I have never taken that
experience and then compared the two.
I also have this 'thing' about categorizing art and music. It feels funny.
Like wearing an itchy sweater. I know some of the categorization is imposed by
the artists themselves - say deStijl or Bauhaus, etc. So it's not that I feel
the categorization is being foisted on art and music. It just feels strange to
me. It puts me in a position of defining things I don't really want to
define. I feel like I may be conjuring images I would not otherwise without
the definition. That's useful sometimes, I guess. I still feel funny about
it.
Even as I use them myself, I feel uncomfortable. For instance, when I say
baroque music makes me batty. That's not entirely true. Some of it makes me
batty. Not all of it. Impressionist art. I don't wipe it all away. I just
am not particularly inspired by a lot of what I have seen of it. I'm sure I
could find some that I like.
I really like rib's image of blowing impressionist art out through the valves
of 76 trombones. It's incongruous for me. Precisely because of the idea I
have of some art that is called impressionist art. I'm happy about having
blown that image out of the water.
Long story short: I see the relationship between art and music in my personal
experience of them rather than in how they are categorized.
S.
PGS
S.
PGS
on aural/oral (rather unsuccessful one, I guess!).
Like you, I'm uncomfortable with the terms and relating the music and art based
on the terms. Itchy sweater. I know I can put a shirt on underneath, but I
haven't yet figured out what that constitutes.
S.
PGS
Interesting. I would be most apt to hear the music and experience the art and
think about social context, if anything, I guess. But I recognize that's a
consciousness issue. Which is so incredibly variable.
S.
PGS
well, i'll tell ya what i'm gonna do. sometime this month, dig up that list of
baroken bach everyone here gave me many moons back and go listen. open up the ears
a little. see if i like it. i joke about not liking baroque at _all_. you know, i
sometimes get a little carried away with my exaggeration of an experience for
drama's sake. ;-) but my experiences with bach have been both limited and
uncomfortable at the same time. we'll see how it goes.
s.
Scott Daughtrey
John Wasak wrote:
Well, it should be no surprise I can offer nothing to this. I have no idea who
Gabriel Faure is and given your high regard for the musicI should add it to my
list of things I really need to listen to.
Scott
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
John Wasak wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > I actually liked Sam's metaphor. I'm not sure I was ever that
> > comfortable with use of the same term "impressionism" for both visual
> > and musical arts. It implies the philosophies, techniques, etc. were
> > parallel or related.
>
> But some of the philosophies were similar, no? Folks like Debussy and Monet
> largely looked to change what was considered the correct academic outlook of
> their day on both their respective arts.
>
> JW
Of course you're right. I'm sure these guys (largely guys) hung out
together, maybe drank together. They were probably similar politically.
I'm just not sure you can compare the effect over time of the impressionists
on visual arts and music on an A-B analysis. Part of this is the medium, part
is neurology, and part is the different social roles that the different arts
have played.
I'm sure you're right, though, that at least on the part of musicians
involved, there was a conscious effort to capture the "essence" of visual
artists.
Steve
>
>
> > Of course they were contemporary, and the guys
> > probably knew each other. Maybe it was the boys' club.
> >
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Bob Ashley
> I do listen and look at music and art in a similar fashion (i.e., I
> see/hear/feel the shapes, etc. in both). But I have never taken that
> experience and then compared the two.
Perhaps the similarity between your looking (art) and listening (music)
'mootilates' a need to compare, to contrast. Getting lost in the swim of
one's experience of one's attention, i.e., the nonreflexive experiencer,
for whom all sensory inputs converge on mind's perceptual imagery. It
makes no difference to me, then, if Paul Klee's art 'speaks' or Koshkin's
compositions 'dance' or Frank Lloyd Wright's bungalow is built of singing
bricks pitched by the heavenly host. Or, consulting our collective
'journal' from a few days ago, that guitar playing is foreplaying.
> I really like rib's image of blowing impressionist art out through the valves
> of 76 trombones. It's incongruous for me. Precisely because of the idea I
> have of some art that is called impressionist art. I'm happy about having
> blown that image out of the water.
> Long story short: I see the relationship between art and music in my personal
> experience of them rather than in how they are categorized.
To categorize, one must represent something else. In deciding how to
represent one must select a rubric from an array. There are always more
possibilities. One's selection is thus necessarily also an exclusion. And
as reality is supposed to be represented by one's selection, the
exclusions actually render the representation a 'deflection' from reality.
Your itchiness is a rational reaction to rough deflections against your
intuition's skin, of wooly selections.
Essentially, then, we could say there's no such thing as 'silk purse'
category. Rather, categories are--let us provide for gender equity here--
a burlap jock strap, a burlap bra.
Good for potatoes, though. Even then, note that Mr. Potato Head's standout
virtue is that you can make his face into whatever you want--with a new
nose, a different hat, a pluck of his moustache, smaller ears. Reach into
a sack of potatoes (a nice category!) and we are still hard-pressed to
predict the peculiar and particular shape of the yanked-out, enpalmed
starch.
Look! Mine looks like a meteorite! What does a meteorite look like? Well,
like a potato, of course!
***
rib
Greg M. Silverman
forget Bach and go to the more unknown stuff... there is a lot of
absolutely fabulous stuff out there represented by the French, English,
German, Dutch, Swedish, Italian, etc., etc. and the great thing, likke
some classical period stuff, is that a lot of it is highly
improvisational, case in point the Vivaldi Manchester Sonatas. Yes, your
reaction: "Vivaldi, yuk" is justifiable since all you probably are
familair with is the rgetaest of all overblown pieces, which believe it
or not in its unaltered orchestration, is a really killer virtusic piece
and is semi-improisational in form, unlike the oveblown versions (in the
styles of Stokowki meets Robert Shaw meets Mormon Tabernacle Choir -- I
heard them last night doing "Sleeper's Awake" with Ormandy and the
Philly Orch., and it made me sick to my stomach) that you are used to.
Bach is great, but given your Bach bias, I think you would be best
working from the outward towards him as you target. check out any of the
Romanesca stuff: Nigel North provides some incredible plucking on
lute/archlute/theorbo/braoque guitar and with John Toll on keyboard
instruments (his organ playing on the Hans Von Biber is phenomenal)
provide a great rhythm section for Andrew Manze to whip off some
incredible violin playing... the clincher is that they take the
improvisational character of this music to new heights. it is very
refreshing music. There is a ton of other stuff that is similar to this
too. But when people think barqoue music, they think of the awful
arrangements (including bad guiatr arrangements by overrated players
that I will not mention), not the good stuff.
My 2-bits,
gms--
Larry Deack
"Bob Ashley"
> In deciding how to
> represent one must select a rubric from an array. There are always more
> possibilities. One's selection is thus necessarily also an exclusion.
I like that the word 'decide' does not mean to choose a path but to 'cut
off' other paths.
Greg M. Silverman
>
> John Wasak wrote:
>
> > Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > > I actually liked Sam's metaphor. I'm not sure I was ever that
> > > comfortable with use of the same term "impressionism" for both visual
> > > and musical arts. It implies the philosophies, techniques, etc. were
> > > parallel or related.
> >
> > But some of the philosophies were similar, no? Folks like Debussy and Monet
> > largely looked to change what was considered the correct academic outlook of
> > their day on both their respective arts.
> >
> > JW
>
> Of course you're right. I'm sure these guys (largely guys) hung out
> together, maybe drank together.
they definitely drank together... they loved to sip Absinthe. there was
a fascinating article several years ago in Scientific American about
this, and about how it may have contributed to Van Gogh's problems in
the head.
gms--
Alain Reiher
Ornette Coleman and Jackson Pollock. Lautrec and ... and ... Offenbach. Berlioz and Delacroix.
Ravel ... Duchamps. Rrose c'est la vie.
Sonia Delauney, Man Ray, Max Ernst, and... and ...AND ... [no association, What about those with no associations?]
Watteau "le Mezzetin" [details] and Giuliani concerto opus 30! [that is the strongest one]
Henri Rousseau... le douanier R, often associated with Debussy [ pour la faune?] [And the japanese estampe for la mer]
A faint memory of a friday afternoon free class in grade 6 or was it 7? A classic in the school system,
doodling in a musical environment. What was that for?
Fantasia! animation and music.
Ascenseur pour l'échafaud. Film music really started there [as a separate but not separate by product]
It must have been done .. a two hour film with no music at all?
[Marguerite Duras maybe?]
Carré blanc sur fond blanc would absorb well the music of Prokofiev.
Satie ...Tanguay, Picasso, Dali ... Satie must have walk right beside Desforges piano shop on the left bank ... whistling one of his gymnopédie!
Poulenc, Miro. Stravinsky, Picasso, De Kooning.
Borduas, Riopel, Serge Garant.
Is that right? absolutely not!
Non sense!
Associating painting to music is no less than a benign commercial gimmick for CDs front cover and publications.
None the less music can inspire the painter and painting can inspire the composer!
:-)
Alain
Greg M. Silverman
I got the Shakelton... looks very nice. Will let you know how we fare (I
think a 3rd movement with bass recorder simulating the wind would be
really neat)
BTW, I am going to frame your doodles. These are works of art, almost
Warholian in style! :-)
gms--
Greg M. Silverman
duh, I forgot Spanish... Spanish baroque is some gnarly stuff! Sanz is
greta (listen to Hopkinson Smith play him!), but I especially love
playing the tonos of Juan Marin, with recorder filling in for the vocal
part. These are some very loveley songs (and yes, I mean songs since
they were written for voice. :-))
gms--
John Wasak
> If you have time, throw a glance to my Studio (Berceuse) written as a
homage
> to Fauré. After the chordal introduction, you will see the guitaristic
> evocation of a duo between cello and harp, where the guitar is treated as
a
> medium.
>
> AG
>
Yes, I think I can see that, especially, it seems, in the 'Un poco piu
lentamente' section. The falling triplets being the harp - the notes between
being the cello.
JW
John Wasak
I don't disagree. Category's umbrella-like shadow might just create too
much shade for distinction to reveal itself. Non-category being like the
Klieg-light revealing that one silver hair among the mop of auburn hairs on
a stage-stuck spotlighted singing soprano's head. ;-)
Still, category has its uses. If only as a convenient handle for carrying
around our little sacks of ideas.
JW
John Wasak
> Interesting. I would be most apt to hear the music and experience the art
and
> think about social context, if anything, I guess. But I recognize that's
a
> consciousness issue. Which is so incredibly variable.
>
> S.
>
Well, that's interesting as well! Art and music experienced within a social
context. Care to go further in expounding on that idea?
JW
John Wasak
>
> John Wasak wrote:
>
> > Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > > I actually liked Sam's metaphor. I'm not sure I was ever that
> > > comfortable with use of the same term "impressionism" for both visual
> > > and musical arts. It implies the philosophies, techniques, etc. were
> > > parallel or related.
> >
> > But some of the philosophies were similar, no? Folks like Debussy and
Monet
> > largely looked to change what was considered the correct academic
outlook of
> > their day on both their respective arts.
> >
> > JW
>
> Of course you're right. I'm sure these guys (largely guys) hung out
> together, maybe drank together. They were probably similar politically.
> I'm just not sure you can compare the effect over time of the
impressionists
> on visual arts and music on an A-B analysis. Part of this is the medium,
part
> is neurology, and part is the different social roles that the different
arts
> have played.
And of course you're right as well, Steve. I'm not arguing for a strict
parallelism between between the two. The mediums themselves differ enough
to make strict A-B analysis most time unadvisable.
> I'm sure you're right, though, that at least on the part of musicians
> involved, there was a conscious effort to capture the "essence" of visual
> artists.
>
> Steve
>
Well, I think so. I could go back to my earlier example of the composer
Morton Feldman and his incorporation of the philosophies of the Abstract
Expressionists into his music. He was friends with many of the New York
School of painters, poets, and composers that coalesced in the 1950s, people
like Philip Guston, Mark Rothko, Jackson Pollock, de Kooning, Frank O'Hara,
and John Cage. And most of them all got together regularly at the Cedar Bar
for an exchange of ideas. Surely out of such a forge must have come the
intertwined metal of similar ideas.
JW
Angelo Gilardino
Exactly. If you play them with the proper tones, you will perceive a
continuity in each single part, despite the fact that they are given in a
responsorial form.
AG
John Wasak
Thanks for mentioning all this, Angelo. It's all quite useful information,
and sure to help in my playing of the music.
JW
John Wasak
Alain
>>>>>>>>>>
Nice Alain....this reads like the combo-platter at the Red Dragon ! ;-)
And Ascenseur pour l'échafaud....Miles + Moreau = inspiring!
JW
--tony--
> On 2/14/03 2:04 AM, in article b2i4ds$1bh9li$1...@ID-91010.news.dfncis.de,
> "Angelo Gilardino" <angelog...@tin.it> wrote:
>
> ...
> >>
> >> Anyone else care to comment about their ideas on the relationship of
> visual
> >> art to music?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Do you feel any affinity between Monet's pictures and Debussy's music?
> >
> > AG
> >
>
> ac
Not quite Constable. To me Vaughan Williams is 'rooted' not just in
his Englishness (for sure he was steeped in local folk tunes and
English music from half a millenium earlier)- but to be more specific
in his own region, which was Western England close to the Welsh
border. (Constable painted most of his pictures in East Anglia - a
very different landscape.) Many of his song settings were based on
poetry set in this area (eg 'A Shropshire Lad'.) I don't know if V-W
responded to particular paintings - I am sure he did - but certainly
he responded to literature and landscape. I used to live in that area
and very often his music came into my head when I walked in the hills.
This digression on V-W is not totally a red-herring - he was a student
of Ravel and arrived back in England writing disturbingly french
style accompaniments to English folk songs. Ravel apparently gave him
a hard time on the grounds that the English were a totally unmusical
nation. (He had a point - the musical track record of the English over
the previous few hundred years was not the best - maybe on a level
with Greenland.)
I have just listened to a little bit of Ravel - he certainly is not an
impressionist - quite the opposite. At times neo-classical, hints of
Stravinsky (or should I say Stravinsky has hints of Ravel). Influence
of Jazz. Clear form. Debussy and Ravel are chalk and cheese, as
different as say JS Bach and Weiss.
But what inspired Ravel - anyone know?
And will someone please arrange something playable for guitar (or
guitar duet). I remember once playing something with a flautist which
worked well - I cant recall what it was.
BTW Sam - listen in particular to the concerto for left hand by Ravel
(written for a pianist who returned from the Great War without a right
hand).
Vive La France - (and their cheap but effective vin de table which is
inspiring this misspelled missive)
I hope you all found love
yours
Tony Conway