Cross-string trills in Bach
Mary Jacobs
I am asking about appropriateness of cross-string trills in Bach,
specifically the Em Bouree. I have knackered my fretting hand thumb tendon
and can only play for 10/20mins a day, so I was thinking of trying to
acquire this skill to use in this Bouree. My left hand trills are hit and
miss (get it?) so I was hoping these may be a good substitute and a good use
of my time, of which there is now an abundance.
M
Dicerous
M,
Cross string trills are controversial. I tend to like them because
they have the sound of a harpsichord; i.e. a very guitaresque
gesture. David Russell uses them often as does Manuel Barrueco. They
only work if they're done correctly though. If one can't pull off a
decent cross string trill, it's better to use a single string trill.
It all depends how fluid your RH is. I play most of my cross string
trills as (e.g.) p-2, i-1, m-2, a-1. It feels a little silly at first
because of your instincts to play temelo on just one string, but once
you nail that combination, you're in good shape to play cross string
trills wherever they show up. I got this particular combination from
Norbert Kraft. Does anyone else play them this way?
David
la...@deack.net
Go by what you like not what others say. Some love 'em and some hate
'em but neither can claim authority. There are many patterns but using
the tremolo pattern seems common and not difficult if you have got
some kind of tremolo going. They should actually help your tremolo
since you can practice quick bursts and then gradually extend them.
Check out Stanley Yates' site for a great lesson on RH trill patterns
with sample music.
Carlos Barrientos
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (512) 218 - 8322> On Mar 21, 3:58 pm, "Mary Jacobs"
Mlle. Jacobs:
Hit and miss...good one...
I believe David Russell uses a=1 -i=2 -m=1 -p=2
Check out his website, he has a tips section.
Alcibiades
Wollybird
Go for it. Works great with Bach
Wollybird
Mary Jacobs
"Wollybird" <woll...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:cd118684-8d7c-44c3...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Go for it. Works great with Bach
Great, thanks one and all and for the helpful links too : )
M
Mary Jacobs
"Wollybird" <woll...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:cd118684-8d7c-44c3...@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Go for it. Works great with Bach
I don't suppose anyone would like to make a youtube video lesson of the
stanley yates version?
M
Wollybird
> "Wollybird" <wollyb...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
Probably not going to happen, unless you can get Luteman to do it.
Start with the finger combination Dicerios suggests, place your
fingers per Russell's illustration. It should feel like a tremolo. You
might get Stanley Yate's recording of the Bach cello suites. He uses
them a lot in that recording, and you can hear how they should sound
if done well. It takes a while to get them down.
la...@deack.net
Wollybird wrote:
>
> It takes a while to get them down.
Do you have them down?
Wollybird
Not like Stanley Yates, but enough to fake it. I'll do more when I get
back to some baroque stuff.
Andrew Schulman
There is that old Duke Ellington quote that Peter Schikele uses a lot,
"If it sounds good, it IS good".
Andrew
darwi...@yahoo.ca
If you have in mind to eventually use them in the Bourree then you
might want to use Russell's fingering since in the piece the first
note of of your trills will likely coincide with a bass note played
with p.
If you have difficulty playing the trill quickly enough with Russell's
fingering and don't want to dedicate gobs of practice time to working
on it (one reason I am reluctant to teach cross string trills [better
off spending your time on other things]), a decent hack is to
sequentially sweep m and then i across strings 1 and 2. It is easy to
get this up to speed (although less controlled) and it also frees up p
for a bass note.
Carlos Barrientos
In my ignorance, and probably being completely wrong, instead of
a-i-m-p, I use a-i-m-i (instead of p, frees up the thumb. I like the
fact that I can, if I want to, plant im after the initial a and plant ia
after m and have quiet, if I need it.
But what do I know, I don't have a Grammy award winning career that
includes grammies, Massive repertoire, virtuoso chops,etc. (;-)
See, Mlle. Jacobs? Gotta find what works for you, one of these solutions
is bound to stick!
Alain Reiher
"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:13ub02e...@corp.supernews.com...
I might be old school but, personally, I prefer doing my trills with the
left hand.
Alain
Andrew Schulman
> I might be old school but, personally, I prefer doing my trills with the
> left hand.
>
>
Andres
Carlos Barrientos
La controversie te va suivre!
Tashi
Not that I have anything against cross string trills in Bach, but why
the hell do you want your guitar to sound like a harpsichord, while
the whole time Bach was trying to get his harpsichord to sound like a
lute?
MT
Dicerous
Tashi,
I guess you've defaulted to existential estrangement. As a performer,
I can make the guitar sound like other instruments if I feel like it.
The performance experience depends upon the performer having a
versatile arsenal of presentations. What you describe is a community
IN SPITE of trespasses. They are implied in music's justice.
David
Andrew Schulman
> Not that I have anything against cross string trills in Bach, but why
> the hell do you want your guitar to sound like a harpsichord, while
> the whole time Bach was trying to get his harpsichord to sound like a
> lute?
>
>
like another instrument, or even like a guitar. After all, it is a
guitar! All of my intent is on making music, making it sing and
dance. So a cross string trill, or any other technique, is just a
means to an end.
I like the sound of it or I don't, that is basis of choice. I take
into consideration other factors, such as a particular style or
composer, but the essential issue is whether I think it works well.
Andrew
Tashi
Tashi
David It's not "existential estrangement" however, the full meaning of
that term only you know. Bach created a keyboard instrument to
imitate the sound of the lute. The early keyboard composers tried
desperately to imitate the broken chords of the the lute and other
lute like styles. The lute shaped and influenced the very soul of
keyboard music. You can also read Ernst Gottlieb Baron (1727) "Study
of The Lute" in which he has a very spirited public debate with Johann
Mattheson over Mattheson's biting sarcasm and criticism of the lute.
Weiss also weighs in with an open letter to Mattheson's criticisms, in
a musical publication.
After reading these accounts it seems like a regression to wish for
our noble guitar to sound like an inferior instrument with such a
limited dynamic range as the harpsichord. I believe people like you
need to justify your playing, and instrument to the larger classical
music sobriety as a whole in order to feel validated, too bad your so
busy tring to make your guitar into something it's not. Might this
also apply to your lifestyle orientation choice's as well?
MT
Tashi
> On Mar 23, 12:51 am, Tat <michaeltha...@starband.net> wrote:> Not that I have anything against cross string trills in Bach, but why
> > the hell do you want your guitar to sound like a harpsichord, while
> > the whole time Bach was trying to get his harpsichord to sound like a
> > lute?
>
> Interesting question. I never think of trying to make my guitar sound
> like another instrument, or even like a guitar. After all, it is a
> guitar! All of my intent is on making music, making it sing and
> dance. So a cross string trill, or any other technique, is just a
> means to an end.
Well it can't can it? I can't remember who coined the antiquated
slogan, the guitar was like a miniature orchestra. This however
doesn't remotely indicate it sounds like another instrument but merely
hints at it's range of dynamics, and color. This again begs the
question why would a guitarist regress back to the limitations of the
harpsichord?
>
> I like the sound of it or I don't, that is basis of choice. I take
> into consideration other factors, such as a particular style or
> composer, but the essential issue is whether I think it works well.
In David Russell and Sharon Isbin's recordings of Bach one finds
trills at the point of distraction. Also Russell's interpretation of
Weiss completely misses the point with his distracting use of cross
string trills for the sake of cross string trills. Look mommy see
what I can do! I guess the bottom line is whatever sells the most
records and razzale dazzles the masses.
I love David Russell's playing but not everyone can play everything
well.
MTp.m.
>
> Andrew
Dicerous
You're a fool!
David
la...@deack.net
Shouldn't that be "Your a fool!"?
Tashi
It works well either way Larry.
MT
Dicerous
Why not recreate the ENVIORNMENT of the baroque lutenists. Why take
Bach's proprietary predilection for making *the harpsichord sound like
a lute* as gospel. You're existentially estranged from the reality of
music's justice.
David
Andrew Schulman
> > > but why the hell do you want your guitar to sound like a harpsichord, while
> > > the whole time Bach was trying to get his harpsichord to sound like a
> > > lute?
>
>
>
>
> one finds trills at the point of distraction...
>
>
Well, part of the art of ornamentation is knowing when and where, and
sounds like you are part of the "less is more" school, me too.
Andrew
Tashi
Yes, and if you listen to Barto play Weiss you hardly detect any
ornamentation at all, it's very subtle. There is an old proverb
"Tickling the intellect with a feather is better than banging your
head with a hammer".
I guess it's all taste but guitarist's who use cross string trills do
tend to over use them. If they are done sparingly and with taste
that's another thing.
And this is enough of on topic discussion for one day........back
to UFO's.
MT
MT
Miguel de Maria
I would offer: for the same reason that sometimes guitarist hit their
guitar and try to make it sound like a drum. Or hold the two bass
strings together and play the percussive twang to the rhythm of
"Glory, Glory, Hallelujah"--because then people would say--hey! That
sounds just like a harpsichord!
ax964...@gmail.com
jim froman
> On Mar 21, 3:58 pm, "Mary Jacobs" <m...@obelisk.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > I am asking about appropriateness of cross-string trills in Bach,
> > specifically the Em Bouree. I have knackered my fretting hand thumb tendon
> > and can only play for 10/20mins a day, so I was thinking of trying to
> > acquire this skill to use in this Bouree. My left hand trills are hit and
> > miss (get it?) so I was hoping these may be a good substitute and a good use
> > of my time, of which there is now an abundance.
> >
> > M
>
> M,
>
> Cross string trills are controversial. I tend to like them because
> they have the sound of a harpsichord; i.e. a very guitaresque
> gesture. David Russell uses them often as does Manuel Barrueco. They
> only work if they're done correctly though. If one can't pull off a
> decent cross string trill, it's better to use a single string trill.
> It all depends how fluid your RH is. I play most of my cross string
> trills as (e.g.) p-2, i-1, m-2, a-1. It feels a little silly at first
> because of your instincts to play temelo on just one string, but once
> you nail that combination, you're in good shape to play cross string
> trills wherever they show up. I got this particular combination from
> Norbert Kraft. Does anyone else play them this way?
>
>
> David
JF
thomas
>
> The guitar is a controversial instrument to begin with. What does it matter how you play it? Not to mention the fact that you're playing a piece that wasn't even written for the guitar. I would go with your gut feeling until some men in suits show up at your door. Then I would reconsider.
>
Andrew Schulman
I love cross-string trills, I use them a lot in all kinds of repertoire.
A.
jim froman
JF
Andrew Schulman
> When who showed up?
>
> JF
A.
jim froman
JF
Andrew Schulman
> Who's Reza?
>
> JF
Reza's on first. Who's on second?
Andrew
John Nguyen
Andrew Schulman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg
Andrew
thomas
>
> Who's Reza?
https://artisttool.mtv.com/login/verify/896267/
You should definitely go for it. What could go wrong?
Andrew Schulman
Andrew
Nate Najar
Matt Faunce
do it. I'm pretty sure I got if from a David Russell article somewhere.
Although in baroque music we're mostly starting on "the upper auxiliary"
so it would be a-i-m-p.
--
Matt
Matt Faunce
the appropriateness of it. Classical musicians are like suburban guys
who went to high school in the 80s, we don't know when it's appropriate
to change our hairstyle. We need the input of cool cat jazzers.
--
Matt
John Nguyen
David Raleigh Arnold
Nate Najar <na...@natenajar.com> wrote:
> I am the wrong person to comment on the appropriateness of it,
"classical" guitar did not exist yet, at least not in any numbers.
His few lute works prove nothing anyway. Whatever works.
xaim is ok for long final trills, but for more modest ones
xm works fine. For a trill on a high note, like in the Haendel
Sarabande with Variations, xm or mx is better than legature
(slurs) even on a single string. IMO. Regards, Rale
--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and
levels. Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail:
d.raleig...@gmail.com Contact:
http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html
dewach...@gmail.com
> Hi Guys,
>
> I am asking about appropriateness of cross-string trills in Bach,
> specifically the Em Bouree. I have knackered my fretting hand thumb tendon
> and can only play for 10/20mins a day, so I was thinking of trying to
> acquire this skill to use in this Bouree. My left hand trills are hit and
> miss (get it?) so I was hoping these may be a good substitute and a good use
> of my time, of which there is now an abundance.
>
> M