Tradition!

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

After the truss rod incident it kept me thinking:

-So what is tradition? Viennese maker? Spanish makers? French makers? Or all of the above are wrong and the REAL thing is 5 courses guitars, maybe even 4 courses guitars!

-Bolted necks have been used sins 1815, so before the Torres guitars, so tradition should consider Spanish heel an aberration? Or go back to the "real thing" flat join with a nail? Or the long time used dovertail?

-What about bracing? You can't say that fan brace is prior to ladder brace!

Another argument that allays puzzle me: why did classical guitars didn't changed to metal strings like violins, they could have been much more lauder for big concert halls...

Cheers

Benoît

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Beniot, have you even ever played a fine classical guitar? Like did you get the nail file out and file your nails perfectly, brush them across the strings, have you spent years studying tone production with a master guitarist, and did your mind register the effort required to produce a robust tone, did you notice the balance between the treble and bass. When you picked up the guitar did you get an instinctive feel for how it sounds before you ever brushed your finely polished nails across the strings?

I've never seen a photo of a classical guitar you have ever made, only bizzae shapes of steel strings, with several necks.

You sound like a Cessna pilot, giving advice to astronauts on how to fly the space shuttle!

[Fadosolrélamisi]

Woaw!!! He is just starting a thread and asking questions about lutherie! (Where do you read that he is giving advice!!!) As an astronaut luthier that you seems to be ... these questions should be easy to answer, fun even, no? Or you that far out in space?

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Michael, its not necessary to hide behind nicknames, your rudeness and ignorance makes you easy to spot... To answer to your question, no I don't manicure my nails but had a lot of very fine classical guitars passing trough the shop, some Ramirez, Picado, and many other makers from Spain, as well as American made instruments too... And your answer is to cliché and "traditionalist" Well let me give you an answer as supid as your by one of the finners Spanish makers: "No puedes hacer buenas guitarras Españolas, si no eres Español cabrón!". For him your Dresden guitars should be burn to the stake so maybe you should consider thinking from time to time...

Fadosolrélamisi, AKA Alain... Yes answers would be great.

Benoit

[thomas]

On Monday, September 24, 2012 8:40:24 AM UTC-4, Benoit Meulle-

>
> Another argument that allays puzzle me: why did classical guitars didn't changed to metal strings like violins, they could have been much more lauder for big concert halls...
>

Steel strings tend to shred nails.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Indeed, one of the disadvantages of steel strings...

By the way Michael you quote "You sound like a Cessna pilot, giving advice to astronauts on how to fly the space shuttle! " Is reversed classical guitars can be considered 1960's cessnas and modern multi strings harp guitars space shuttles. So get a life and stop talking from your arse...
Benoit

[wollybird]

ass, not arse.
I think it's safe to say 95% percent or so of the people here play
guitars built in the Torres tradition. Sometimes I do like to play a
renaissance tune on a steel string- maybe one written for cittern.

[dsi1]

> Benoīt
>

You can build anything you want. All it takes is guts. Whether you'll be
able to sell your innovative products is another thing. Guitarists are a
conservative bunch. My Gibson and Fender guitars were designed in the
early 50s. My Martin is almost exactly the same as when it came out in
1932. The classic classical guitar design is from around the 50's too.
The 1850s that is. Ha ha. These days, CGers will pay big bucks for a
louder guitar - as long as the looks are dead conventional. That's the
breaks.

Guitarists did change over to steel strings when they became available
and that caused an evolutionary branch in the guitar family which pretty
much took the guitar world by storm. If nylon strings weren't invented,
I'd be playin' da blooze because the classical guitar world wouldn't
exist, although that might just be wishful thinking on my part. :-)

[Fadosolrélamisi]

Le lundi 24 septembre 2012 14:49:30 UTC-7, dsi1 a écrit :
> On 9/24/2012 2:40 AM, Benoit Meulle-Stef wrote:
>
> > After the truss rod incident it kept me thinking:
>
> >
>
> > -So what is tradition? Viennese maker? Spanish makers? French makers? Or all of the above are wrong and the REAL thing is 5 courses guitars, maybe even 4 courses guitars!
>
> >
>
> > -Bolted necks have been used sins 1815, so before the Torres guitars, so tradition should consider Spanish heel an aberration? Or go back to the "real thing" flat join with a nail? Or the long time used dovertail?
>
> >
>
> > -What about bracing? You can't say that fan brace is prior to ladder brace!
>
> >
>
> > Another argument that allays puzzle me: why did classical guitars didn't changed to metal strings like violins, they could have been much more lauder for big concert halls...
>
> >
>
> > Cheers
>
> >
>

> > Benoît

>
> >
>
>
>
> You can build anything you want. All it takes is guts. Whether you'll be
>
> able to sell your innovative products is another thing. Guitarists are a
>
> conservative bunch. My Gibson and Fender guitars were designed in the
>
> early 50s. My Martin is almost exactly the same as when it came out in
>
> 1932. The classic classical guitar design is from around the 50's too.
>
> The 1850s that is. Ha ha. These days, CGers will pay big bucks for a
>
> louder guitar - as long as the looks are dead conventional. That's the
>
> breaks.
>
>
>
> Guitarists did change over to steel strings when they became available
>
> and that caused an evolutionary branch in the guitar family which pretty
>
> much took the guitar world by storm. If nylon strings weren't invented,
>
> I'd be playin' da blooze because the classical guitar world wouldn't
>
> exist, although that might just be wishful thinking on my part. :-)

yeah! It's good to be able to think outside the box! (So to speak...)
Haaaa ... da Beloooze!

[John E. Golden]

On 09/24/2012 08:40 AM, Benoit Meulle-Stef wrote:
> Another argument that allays puzzle me: why did
> classical guitars didn't changed to metal strings like violins,
> they could have been much more lauder for big concert halls...
> Cheers

> Benoīt


Steel strings may well be louder, but, IMO, the sound of a fine nylon
string guitar is absolutely 'magical!'

Regards,
John E. Golden

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

> Steel strings may well be louder, but, IMO, the sound of a fine nylon
>
> string guitar is absolutely 'magical!'
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John E. Golden

Yes I have to be agree with you on this one, guts and good nylon sound very sweet...

Benoit

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Alain, Beniot and I were having this conversation on facebook and it moved over here, this is why Beniot says I'm rude when my post wasn't rude and was very much to the point.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Beniot, I think I'm quite qualified to speak on behalf of Multi-steel guitars wouldn't you say? Why don't you "the great expert on multi-string guitars" post a video of your sensitivity and musical genius?

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I just have thing about steel string builders telling classical makers about innovation. Most all so called innovations have come from the classical traditions. 90% of steel string players don't play above the third fret.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

A typical steel string player like Beniot can never understand the amount of time and practice it takes to consistently produce an excellent tone on a classical guitar, he can hear it and appreciate it, but he can't do it. Yet he talks of truss rods and all, like it wouldn't have any effect on the sound of a fine classical guitar.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

It's funny that you never takes credit for your rudeness, like "dum ass" and other nice little worlds, I love to talk guitar making with qualify and civilize persons, your are not one of them. You like to insult persons and cut any communication...
Why is that I can spend an evening talking with persons like Jeffrey Elliott, Paul Fischer and never feel underestimated or denigrated? But one post from you alway sound "I know everything, I'm a genius, fuck off". No wonder why you have been trough away from so many forums with your attitude. You have no dialog skill, so I don't see the point in talking with you...
For you everyone else is a joker or a looser and you know it all. Look at your stupid quote about airplanes and space shuttles and you get the point. About truss rods: Do you know what you are talking about? Do you know how many modern makers use them in top of the line instrument, but hide them under the nut so fundamentalist like yourself would not scream like a banshee at new moon? Remember than many players where screaming like hell about geared tuners saying it kills the sound of a fine guitar? But apparently you use them don't you?

So yes you are an ass...

Benoît

[Steven Bornfeld]

The line was "There's no money above the third fret". I believe Chet
Atkins said that, but not sure. But he kinda put the lie to that.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[dsi1]

Thanks Steve, this is great news because I'm re-fretting my O-18. You're a lifesaver! OTOH, I'm going all the way to the 5th. You never know, I might want to learn some jazz in the future.

[dsi1]

I tried my Strat the other day. Boy the strings feel tight! I gotta get in shape. Too much nylon has ruined my body. Too much abuse has gone on for too long. From now on there will be 50 bends each morning, 50 open-hand vibratos. There will be no more pills, no more bad food, no more destroyers of my body. From now on will be total organization. Every muscle must be tight. KnowhutImean?

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Yea I know, but I didn't want to throw Chet into the equation ha confuse Beniot any further than he already is.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Beniot, did that feel good? Is there anything else you want to say, don't hold back, let it all out..... go ahead I can take it.

[Steven Bornfeld]

Yeah==go completely crazy!

S

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

No I don't waist my time with narrow minded guys like you, now you can play the victim. Funny from a guy ready to insult anyone about anything...
Steven, I almost have fall from my chair about the comment on steel players never going up the 3rd fret... Apparently Michael never have met a real steel string player...

Benoît

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Beniot.... thou does protest too much!

[wollybird]

oddly, enough, his local buddy is probably more known for his steel
string playing than classical.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Wolly: really???

Benoit

[wollybird]

On Sep 26, 11:16 am, Benoit Meulle-Stef <b...@bmsguitars.com> wrote:
> Wolly: really???
>
> Benoit

Yeah, this guy:
http://www.michaelchapdelaine.com/
I think mike is responsible

[dewach...@gmail.com]

I said 90%........ Chapdelaine is the 1% the other 9% are OK.

[Kevin Hall]

"wollybird" <woll...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:e9c2795e-1da0-402c...@j14g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

Wolly; Before you start correcting English perhaps you should learn a
little more about it. An 'ass' is a beast of burden. An arse is what you
sit on, and frequently speak from.

KH

[wollybird]

On Sep 27, 9:02 am, "Kevin Hall" <timberl...@webhart.net> wrote:
> "wollybird" <wollyb...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message

We can always count on Caribou Kevin to disseminate nonsense
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ass

[dewach...@gmail.com]

What's the definition of a "piece of ass" or arse...... this?
http://hostingc.hotchyx.com/adult-image-hosting-12/9534Perfect-Butt.jpg

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Arse is the English version (not the language, the country).

Benoît

[wollybird]

On Sep 27, 11:32 am, Benoit Meulle-Stef <b...@bmsguitars.com> wrote:
> Arse is the English version (not the language, the country).
>
> Benoît

if you say arse, English speakers will think you are from Yellowknife,
and use knotty pine to make guitar necks.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

What else can you use for neck than knotty pine? :-)

Benoit

[dewach...@gmail.com]

Oh my God you use knotty pine for your necks....... no wonder yer so damn defensive about truss rods.

[Kevin Hall]

"Benoit Meulle-Stef" <b...@bmsguitars.com> wrote in message
news:844b9540-e84d-4a15...@googlegroups.com...

Arse is the English version (not the language, the country).

Benoīt

And if those of us with minds cast them back we may recall that the language
is named for the country which developed it. Sadly, Americans speak a
bastardized version, often badly, too often, and loudly.

For Wolly; there are no caribou in eastern Ontario.

KH

[dsi1]

I watched "The Adjustment Bureau" on the telly the other night and
curiously the word was spelled "arse" in the closed captions. That was
strange to see since this was an American film. OTOH, the actor that
used this word, Emily Blunt, is English so I suppose that it could be
an inside joke. OTOH, it could be that the spelling might be
fashionable with young hipster Americans who are totally outrageous.

The movie was just so-so for me but it's so gosh-darn romantic the
chicks would probably dig it more than guys. I like movies where
someone's getting beat up every few minutes. Unfortunately, this movie
is seriously lacking in that department. NYC is photographed in such
an appealing way that it's obvious that the director and
cinematographer are in love with the city. You should probably catch
it if you love NYC.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, September 27, 2012 5:34:18 PM UTC-6, Kevin Hall wrote:
> "Benoit Meulle-Stef" <b...@bmsguitars.com> wrote in message
>
> news:844b9540-e84d-4a15...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Arse is the English version (not the language, the country).
>
>
>

> Benoît

>
>
>
> And if those of us with minds cast them back we may recall that the language
>
> is named for the country which developed it. Sadly, Americans speak a
>
> bastardized version, often badly, too often, and loudly.
>
>
>
> For Wolly; there are no caribou in eastern Ontario.
>
>
>
> KH

Inspector Clueso, yer sayin we Americans are unrefined because we say ass, rather than arse........ do you recommend we adopt the usage of Shite, rather than shit too?

Does yer Dog a bite a?

[John Huff]

Tradition in "classical music" has little or nothing to do with what has priority or where it falls in history.
The best way to describe it is as an accumulation of different fashions in Western art music, from which the current set of recognised performers, composers, critics, the mainstay audience, academics, music publishers, instrument builders and such make a selection and say "this is the tradition".
So, how does it work? We recognise Beethoven as a great composer, but obviously his music is played far better now by our modern players on modern pianos than he would ever have heard it - and if we totally ignore many of the musical conventions of his time, so be it. The same with violins - Stradivarius violins are recognised as "great", but what we are listening to is not a Stradivarius, but really an "improved" 1820s violin made using parts of the original Stradivarius instrument, often with a 19th century bow and 20th century strings and bridge. Most violins supposedly built in the style of Stradivarius automatically copy the 19th century "improved" version.
Tradition in classical guitar making, then, is represented by what is played by the best performers, what is recommended to students by the best teachers, and what the audience expects to see and hear.

[Steven Bornfeld]

On 10/1/2012 10:36 PM, John Huff wrote:
> Tradition in "classical music" has little or nothing to do with what has priority or where it falls in history.
> The best way to describe it is as an accumulation of different fashions in Western art music, from which the current set of recognised performers, composers, critics, the mainstay audience, academics, music publishers, instrument builders and such make a selection and say "this is the tradition".
> So, how does it work? We recognise Beethoven as a great composer, but obviously his music is played far better now by our modern players on modern pianos than he would ever have heard it - and if we totally ignore many of the musical conventions of his time, so be it.

The only "obvious" improvement over what Beethoven heard is that he was
deaf. Since we have no recordings from Beethoven's time, the rest is
just your opinion. Based on what?

The same with violins - Stradivarius violins are recognised as
"great", but what we are listening to is not a Stradivarius, but really
an "improved" 1820s violin made using parts of the original Stradivarius
instrument, often with a 19th century bow and 20th century strings and
bridge. Most violins supposedly built in the style of Stradivarius
automatically copy the 19th century "improved" version.
> Tradition in classical guitar making, then, is represented by what is played by the best performers, what is recommended to students by the best teachers, and what the audience expects to see and hear.
>

I don't know what structural changes were made between the time of
Stradivarius and 1820 in stringed instruments. If technology has
improved so much, why are we still hearing instruments patterned on 18th
(or early 19th) century design?
I'm inclined to agree with you that often guitarists will play what
they're told and expected to play. I'm surprised that more composers
don't write concert music to be played on a Strat.


S.

[John Huff]

On Tuesday, 2 October 2012 13:03:04 UTC+10, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 10:36 PM, John Huff wrote: > Tradition in "classical music" has little or nothing to do with what has priority or where it falls in history. > The best way to describe it is as an accumulation of different fashions in Western art music, from which the current set of recognised performers, composers, critics, the mainstay audience, academics, music publishers, instrument builders and such make a selection and say "this is the tradition". > So, how does it work? We recognise Beethoven as a great composer, but obviously his music is played far better now by our modern players on modern pianos than he would ever have heard it - and if we totally ignore many of the musical conventions of his time, so be it. The only "obvious" improvement over what Beethoven heard is that he was deaf. Since we have no recordings from Beethoven's time, the rest is just your opinion. Based on what?

Based on tradition, as given today, and not on any factual basis. Jackson's myth of progress, I suppose. I don't beleive the comment myself, either - it was meant as an example of the workings of "tradition" rather than my opinion.

The way Beethoven is played today is basically a school of piano playing and musicianship that gained dominance - well, about the same time as we got Segovia. A whole range of expressive techniques were effectively abandoned, and when we hear them used today, it can just seem "wrong" to us. The same applies with the guitar - I'm convinced that if we were subjected to performances by Italian, German or Russian players from the period before Segovia, many of us would have real trouble listening to them.

If you're interested in this sort of thing, the book "Off the Record - Performing Practices in Romantic Piano Playing" by Neal Peres da Costa delves not only into recordings of pianists trained in the 19th century and their different practices, but shows how what they did varies from what they said and wrote about playing.

[Steven Bornfeld]

Ya got me. Yes, I do sense a "romantic" style of playing which is
probably anachronistic. I listen to Casals playing Bach and I hear some
of the same sorts of uses of rubato and ornamentation that I hear in
Segovia, Heifetz, and others from the early years of recorded sound.
At this point we've been exposed to "H.I.P." (for better or worse, maybe
both) long enough that we can listen to 19th century music played on a
pre-Torres guitar without it sounding "wrong". Of course, that's
because we're a pretty damned sophisticated bunch!

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Steven:
So probably the classical guitar we know will disappear to leave place for better modern instruments...

Benoit

[John Nguyen]

I think we will be playing air guitar pretty soon with the advancement
in the Xbox Kinnect development. We will just have to sit in front of
the TV and swing the hands. Plug-in modules, some free some for sale,
will be available to emulate Bream, Segovia, Williams, to name a few.
Yeah!

[JPD]

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 7:20:49 AM UTC-7, Benoit Meulle-Stef wrote:
> Steven:
>
> So probably the classical guitar we know will disappear to leave place for better modern instruments...

I don't think so. Not better. The traditional classical guitar has been perfected and it will always be perfect, just as its predecessors -- the lutes and baroque guitars and theorbos and vihuelas -- were perfected and will always be perfect.

[Steven Bornfeld]

I don't know about "better". Sometimes the musical idiom has to
progress to where different instruments are more suited to the language.
I'm sure there are composers writing for electric guitar, but I've never
seen David Russell pick one up.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

The above statement is an example of erroneous views and is why you are unqualified to speak on behalf of the classical guitar!

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Because you are? Been elected or self nominated? Anyway what is the classical guitar? The tradition of the XIX was way different than this last 75 years, what makes you think it's THE thing? Have you noticed that many makers around the world are questioning seriously the "traditional making" you so violently you try to defend? New bracings, tops, neck adjustments and other things are coming up...

Benoit

[dewach...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 1:26:47 AM UTC-6, Benoit Meulle-Stef wrote:
> Because you are? Been elected or self nominated? Anyway what is the classical guitar? The tradition of the XIX was way different than this last 75 years, what makes you think it's THE thing? Have you noticed that many makers around the world are questioning seriously the "traditional making" you so violently you try to defend? New bracings, tops, neck adjustments and other things are coming up...
>
>
>
> Benoit

Every new bracing idea under the sun has been tried, and they all sound just about the same. Funny how the neck adjustment idea just hasn't caught on. "traditional making" what's that? A lot of things were tried before Torres, but after Torres for the last 160 years the classical guitar has pretty much remained the same.

The only guy who is doing anything different is Smallman, yet half the people don't like the sound he's getting.

Beniot you can't go about changing something for the better if you don't have a firm grasp of the problem to begin with.

Until you post a video of yourself playing A Sor study with good tone and musicianship, please don't lecture us about the future of the classical guitar.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

> Until you post a video of yourself playing A Sor study with good tone and musicianship, please don't lecture us about the future of the classical guitar.

That's is not going to happen, I don't play well. And I don't think you need to to make great guitars, I know many makers who couldn't or cannot play... And yes after all this years of you complaining and trashing everything or everyone you need to be lecture, just to teach you good manners...

Benoit

[Cactus Wren]

Yesterday, I listened to Casals playing the C minor suite and then immediately listened to Yo-Yo Ma playing the same. I enjoyed both immensely! Can't say which one I liked better, have to listen some more.

[dewach...@gmail.com]

The only one complaining and trashing people is you. I don't think a maker of classical guitars can make excellent ones without being able to play...... Torres played guitar.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

> The only one complaining and trashing people is you. I don't think a maker of classical guitars can make excellent ones without being able to play...... Torres played guitar.

By the way... If I play a Sor studies, I need to find a French XIX century guitar, playing Sor in a modern classical guitar is quite an abomination no?
I'm always amaze by your memory, I have nice memories of you insulting a lot of persons here, calling them gay, idiot and other nice things. You even accused me of having insulted the Day Lama... With was absolutely not true... So you may consider take some steps back and look at you and not just your belly bottom...
And about your insults to my making skills, they are so low and not constructive that I don't even care, I rather talk guitar making with interesting and constructive persons, that disqualify you 2 times...


Benoit

[dufres...@gmail.com]

Hi Benoit,

The thread reminds me of the time I bought a Kenny Hill Torres model guitar. What an awesome guitar! Modeled after FE-18 I think. Then, one day I was bored and figured I'd look around inside the guitar.

GASP!!!! A truss rod adjuster. I felt dirty somehow. This is what I get for buying a guitar on a whim. Over time I've had to deal with my emotional reaction to that truss rod. Would the guitar have sounded even better if all things were equal but the truss rod was removed? At least in this case it was just a guitar by a mostly unknown, unsuccessful luthier who probably doesn't understand the negative effect of a truss rod which would explain why he puts them in all of his guitars. ;)

In these matters, I defer to the expert luthier who says that truss rods do effect sound because they have tested it by installing necks with and without truss rods onto the same guitar and measured the effect on sound using fancy machines that prove definitively that there is truly a difference, and the difference is negative.

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

Reminds me the story from a friend lute maker, he used to put Carbone tube inside the neck of his theorbos to prevent warping, but some customers told him to stop because thy could hear the dam thing... One came asking to remove the rod. Instead he just re-polished and then the customer came back, he played the instrument for 45 minutes and with a big smile told him "now it's sounds much better"...

Placebo effect???

Benoît

[Benoit Meulle-Stef]

By the way, truss rods made of titanium will, probably enhance treble response by stiffening the neck... A bad thing for classical guitars no? ;-)