The Anti-Christ of Rolled Chords!

[Andrew Schulman]

Drum roll please...

Go to 1:14:11. Turns out an old friend of mine is the Anti-Christ (according to the Gospel of daveA) of rolled chords.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ihXPVLFCU&feature=youtu.be&t=1h14m11s

(And, in Subliminal Plug #137 for my book, this same fella is an expert in Chapter 12 extolling the virtues of the classical guitar for medical music.)

Andrew

[dsi1]

If you're gonna play Hawaiian style slack key - you better be rolling chords and playing notes off-beat most times. I doubt most classical guitarists would be able to handle the job requirements.

Here's rolling at you, kid. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcbSDLKAfmI

[Andrew Schulman]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 3:39:26 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> If you're gonna play Hawaiian style slack key - you better be rolling chords and playing notes off-beat most times. I doubt most classical guitarists would be able to handle the job requirements.
>
> Here's rolling at you, kid. :)
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcbSDLKAfmI

Wow, beautiful playing and sound!

David, I couldn't help but take a quick glance through the archives and noticed that of the 10,237 posts you've made here 9478 of them disparaged classical guitarists. You're not prejudiced against classical guitarists, are you?

Andrew

[dsi1]

Only 9478? I'm off my game! I have nothing against classical guitarists. I do have a problem with with over-analysis, micro-management, and dogma. Who the heck doesn't?

[Andrew Schulman]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:02:50 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:

> I do have a problem with with over-analysis, micro-management, and dogma. Who the heck doesn't?

What!?! Those are my three favorite things! The fourth is Breyer's Mint Chip Ice Cream.

A.

[dsi1]

Milk products? Eccch!

[Andrew Schulman]

Tilapia Ice Cream?

A.

[dsi1]

You got nothing to complain about. The truth is that you wouldn't be able to play like this because the whole time you'd be worrying about rolling your chords too much. Don't hate me for telling the truth.

[Jerry Willard]

GO BEN!!!!

J

[Andrew Schulman]

Jerry, you just saved this thread from being just another - New York to Hawaii and back - dance with me and good ol' David. And yes, GO BEN, his page in my book is terrific, Vintage Verdery!

A.

[wollybyrde]

he's an amateur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJmObFmNcpU

[Andrew Schulman]

I also like the "How to Roll a Joint" video. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

A.

[wollybyrde]

you only roll a joint when the composer puts a little doobie symbol at the end of the piece

[Andrew Schulman]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:20:36 PM UTC-4, wollybyrde wrote:
> you only roll a joint when the composer puts a little doobie symbol at the end of the piece

Sounds like you're experienced...Oh wait, no, that was Jimi Hendrix.

Andrew

[Thomas Scharkowski]

From the comments:
"How can you give a masterclass without the guitars properly tuned
before at the pitch.This is more tan than terrible,it`s hell.Poor
Bach,he is is turning around in his grave. The teacher is hysterical,he
shouts,talks to much."

Indeed.
Even worse, the teacher sings terribly out of tune.
Could serve as a parody of a masterclass.
:-)

Thomas

[Thomas Scharkowski]

>
> Indeed.
> Even worse, the teacher sings terribly out of tune.
> Could serve as a parody of a masterclass.
> :-)
>

> nice shirt, though.

[Andrew Schulman]

You don't get to be called the Anti-Christ for nothing, you know.

Andrew

[Andrew Schulman]

Thank God!

Andrew

P.S. And yet, even with the shirt, he has a lot of good things to say!

[dougla...@gmail.com]

I had the chance to finally meet Ben last year after reading his articles and watching his technique video as a kid/ young adult. He is awesome, what a down to earth, friendly, crazy guy. Great, great musician too! A classical player with their own voice- a very, very rare thing.

Doug

[Andrew Schulman]

On Monday, May 2, 2016 at 8:59:54 AM UTC-4, dougla...@gmail.com wrote:
> I had the chance to finally meet Ben last year after reading his articles and watching his technique video as a kid/ young adult. He is awesome, what a down to earth, friendly, crazy guy. Great, great musician too! A classical player with their own voice- a very, very rare thing.
>
> Doug

Yeah, Ben has his own voice. He's a very inspiring teacher to many. He has a really beautiful playing style and exceptionally good at making the guitar sing.

Andrew

[JMF]

Andrew,

I hesitated to write this during the whole discussion about rolling
chords, but with this post of yours about the Anti-Christ I thought I
might as well do it: there is at least one other Anti-Christ out there
"somewhere", and unfortunately I don't remember exactly who it was or
exactly when I read it (and that is why I hesitated to write - if I
can't come up with a citation ... ).

Anyway, what I do remember is that it was (1) a very authoritative
figure, somebody who everybody really agrees knows what he is doing, and
(2) he wasn't a guitarist.

[I guess this is where the barnyard could have fun speculating on who it
might have been.]

So this is what I remember him saying: that indeed rolling chords is a
good thing, it really brings out the individual components of the chord
and makes the whole thing better -- not that far off what Ben is saying.
I remember being very surprised at this, since Yes Indeed, my early
guitar teacher had told me that rolling chords was amateurish.

And so, for me this means that there is indeed another point of view on
this that is represented by at least some people who have plenty of cred.

John

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sun, 1 May 2016 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
Andrew Schulman <and...@abacaproductions.com> wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ihXPVLFCU&feature=youtu.be&t=1h14m11s

Gain and loss. In this case, the rolled chords noticeably distort
the voice. The note that Vedery seeks to lengthen actually comes
late, so one of the effects is to lengthen the previous note,
which is the wrong one to lengthen!
Where is the subject? Is it already in the bass at that point?
The articulation of the subject is paramount.
Many people will react negatively to such arpeggios, with
some justification. You want
the top note of the arpeggiated chord to be stronger, but
when you play the chord as an arpeggio you make it weaker
and later. With practice, you can play that top note stronger
and even longer, without arpeggiation than you can with it.
You just can't win if you make an arpeggio every time you have an
appoggiatura. (in a harmonic sense. It's called a suspension in
jazz chord land.) You never give that note the force that
it should have if it's the leading voice. You want the leading
voice, which in a fugue must always be the subject, to
stand out and give the impression of being played by another
person. Not hearing it.

I have something more against it. I like to orchestrate
this stuff whenever there is any possibility whatever
of doing so. Arpeggiated chords pretty much rule that
out too. If orchestral players did that, they'd be
out in the street in a flash.

Regards, Rale

[Andrew Schulman]

I think your guitar teacher may have been referring to something many of us have been saying, that rolling chords unconsciously is amateurish. Or, it's possible your early guitar teacher was daveA.

These threads on rolling have been very RMCGish, to say one should never roll a chord is amateurish too.

Andrew

[JMF]

Incognito! That could be the key to this mystery ...

[Steven Bornfeld]

"Exactly what your teacher said not to do, right?"
I think we've finally found one of DRA's students.

S

[Andrew Schulman]

That's it!!!!!

A.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sun, 1 May 2016 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT)

Andrew Schulman <and...@abacaproductions.com> wrote:

> Drum roll please...
>
> Go to 1:14:11. Turns out an old friend of mine
is the Anti-Christ (according to the Gospel
of daveA) of rolled chords.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ihXPVLFCU&feature=youtu.be&t=1h14m11s

I think that I wasn't clear enough. Vedery is advocating using
an arpeggio to *imitate* making a "suspension" stronger and
longer, but the arpeggio doesn't really do it. It's much
much better to really do it. Many, maybe most in the
audience will appreciate the imitation, but many will not,
regardless of what is posted on RMCG. Driving away such
a large segment of your audience is career suicide.
Segovia retained enough of an audience to do very well,
but don't think for one second that he realized His
potential in that respect. My piano teacher, Charles
Crowder, a music critic for the Washington Star, which
was a major paper at the time, told me that
that there were a lot of very
good musicians who didn't think much of Segovia. I just
filed that away because it meant nothing to me without
understanding that there waa more to it than a foggy
notion that he was taking too many liberties or whatever.
CC was kind enough to turn up at my sophomore
recital, and he said something about a shortage of
dynamics, which I took to heart after years rather than
after decades. I played Madron~os, my own transcription
of Sibelius' Valse Triste, the Sor/Mozart variations,
and a few other things. Maybe Granada too, I don't
remember, but I played that for Segovia to audition
for his master class in Santiago dC in 1963.

I think they used the same room for some years after,
It was where they put the hopeless cases, a place
of intense suffering, when the hotel was a hospital
built or repurposed by Los Reyes Catolicos.
Regards, Rale


Regards, Rale


.

Mark my words, whoever becomes the next Segovia will not
imitate expressions, he/she will play them.

[DCaswellUK]

Hi Rale,
I'd be interested to read your thoughts/observations about Yepes. Did you see him in concert? What are your thoughts on the ten string guitar?
There is a recording of him playing 24 Sor studies on youtube, an interesting comparison with the Segovia and Williams versions. He has a very 'detatched' style, but on repeated listenings it is rather nice, especially for certain of the pieces...
Kind regards,
David

[Richard Jernigan]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 8:16:24 AM UTC-5, daveA wrote:
> On Sun, 1 May 2016 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT)

> I think they used the same room for some years after,
> It was where they put the hopeless cases, a place
> of intense suffering, when the hotel was a hospital
> built or repurposed by Los Reyes Catolicos.
> Regards, Rale
>
>
> Regards, Rale

Santiago de Chile was founded in 1541. As for Los Reyes Catolicos, Isabela of Castile died in 1504, Fernando de Aragon in 1516.

[LowHertz]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 2:02:50 PM UTC-7, dsi1 wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:03:36 AM UTC-10, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 3:39:26 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> > > If you're gonna play Hawaiian style slack key - you better be rolling chords and playing notes off-beat most times. I doubt most classical guitarists would be able to handle the job requirements.
> > >
> > > Here's rolling at you, kid. :)
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcbSDLKAfmI
> >
> > Wow, beautiful playing and sound!
> >
> > David, I couldn't help but take a quick glance through the archives and noticed that of the 10,237 posts you've made here 9478 of them disparaged classical guitarists. You're not prejudiced against classical guitarists, are you?
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Only 9478? I'm off my game! I have nothing against classical guitarists. I do have a problem with with over-analysis, micro-management, and dogma. Who the heck doesn't?

It's part of a well rounded guitarists education. It only takes a lifetime
of dedication to maybe be good enough to become a classical guitarist.

Bill Levitt, who arguably did more to promote pick style guitar than anyone in history came out with the book "Classical Studies for Pick Style Guitar."

[John Nguyen]

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 5:02:50 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:03:36 AM UTC-10, Andrew Schulman wrote:

> > David, I couldn't help but take a quick glance through the archives and noticed that of the 10,237 posts you've made here 9478 of them disparaged classical guitarists. You're not prejudiced against classical guitarists, are you?
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Only 9478? I'm off my game! I have nothing against classical guitarists. I do have a problem with with over-analysis, micro-management, and dogma. Who the heck doesn't?

On the bright side, you are approaching that 10K magic number. C'mon, man! What's holding you back?

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Wed, 4 May 2016 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
Richard Jernigan <rnjer...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 8:16:24 AM UTC-5, daveA wrote:
> > On Sun, 1 May 2016 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT)
>
> > I think they used the same room for some years after,
> > It was where they put the hopeless cases, a place
> > of intense suffering, when the hotel was a hospital
> > built or repurposed by Los Reyes Catolicos.
> > Regards, Rale
> >
> >
> > Regards, Rale
>
> Santiago de Chile

de Compostela
Regards, Rale

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Wed, 4 May 2016 07:46:58 -0700 (PDT)
DCaswellUK <DCasw...@aol.com> wrote:

> Hi Rale,
> I'd be interested to read your thoughts/observations about Yepes.
Did you see him in concert?

No. I think his recording of the Concerto of Aranjuez is still
the best I've heard recorded so far. He was a
formidable guitar player.

> What are your thoughts on the ten string guitar?

Controlling three bass strings is enough trouble
for me. A 10 string sounds a lot better than a baroque
lute, but what about garbage collection? I
hate forever basses.

A six string has a bass, tenor, and alto range.
No soprano. It's already a bit bottomheavy,
and IMO it requires more control of the basses
than it usually gets.

Also, why not add an "a'" string on the high end?
Except then it wouldn't be a guitar any more.

I've never understood why rock guitar players
didn't add a high "a" string and call it an
electric lute.

I also don't think that inlaid frets in such wide
necks make much sense. With accurate drilling, you
could lace up double nylon or polyester frets,
one strand, for pennies,
a fret job would last a long time, and replacement
would be an easy DIY job. Also, no frets working
their way out of the fretboard with temperature
changes. Strings would last longer too.

I heard Walter Gerwig's recording of the Bach fugue
in D (of recent discussion) on baroque lute
and it was awful.
It's immensely better on a six string guitar.

Without arpeggios. ;-)

I'm glad 8 and 10 strings are around. They're just
not for me.

> There is a recording of him playing 24 Sor
studies on youtube, an interesting comparison
with the Segovia and Williams versions.

I'll get to it, but I don't promise to
get through it..

Regards, Rale

[dsi1]

On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 4:06:35 AM UTC-10, LowHertz wrote:
> On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 2:02:50 PM UTC-7, dsi1 wrote:
> > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 10:03:36 AM UTC-10, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 3:39:26 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> > > > If you're gonna play Hawaiian style slack key - you better be rolling chords and playing notes off-beat most times. I doubt most classical guitarists would be able to handle the job requirements.
> > > >
> > > > Here's rolling at you, kid. :)
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcbSDLKAfmI
> > >
> > > Wow, beautiful playing and sound!
> > >
> > > David, I couldn't help but take a quick glance through the archives and noticed that of the 10,237 posts you've made here 9478 of them disparaged classical guitarists. You're not prejudiced against classical guitarists, are you?
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> > Only 9478? I'm off my game! I have nothing against classical guitarists. I do have a problem with with over-analysis, micro-management, and dogma. Who the heck doesn't?
>
> It's part of a well rounded guitarists education. It only takes a lifetime
> of dedication to maybe be good enough to become a classical guitarist.

I wouldn't consider most classical guitarists to be well-rounded. They spend too much time doing what they do for anything else. The guy playing the slack key guitar in the link used to be a classical guitarist and taught CG. I believe that we had the same teacher. In the end, he rejected classical guitar and switched to Hawaiian with classical underpinnings. Mostly he baffles the slack-key players on this rock. They don't understand his tuning or his style of playing. It makes perfect sense to me though. :)

The interesting thing about Hawaiian music in the real old style is that it's typically a single verse sung over and over with different lyrics. The guitar player in the link has taken Hawaiian standards and added a second part. Very cool!

[dsi1]

These days I don't play anymore. I used to play to relieve stress and balance the chi in my belly. There was a hot spot by my diaphragm but learning pieces quenched the fire. Well, that's what I tell people anyway. These days I hardly ever play. My fingernails are all cracking and chipping. That sucks. :)

Perhaps I will one day pick up the guitar again - when I need to kill off a whole crapload of excess time. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[Curmudgeon]

I find myself playing less and less these days. Age and arthritis have taken the pleasure out of it - playing is now more frustration than enjoyment, alas.

[dsi1]

When you're young, your brain is able to process everything about playing the guitar much quicker. You know how using a new computer is more enjoyable than an old one? Same thing.

[Matt Faunce]

Unless you're a capricorn, then it's the opposite.

--
Matt

[Andrew Schulman]

I'm willing to admit that the subject heading of this thread was a brilliant choice.

Andrew

[Steve Freides]

Andrew Schulman wrote:
> Drum roll please...
>
> Go to 1:14:11. Turns out an old friend of mine is the Anti-Christ
> (according to the Gospel of daveA) of rolled chords.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ihXPVLFCU&feature=youtu.be&t=1h14m11s
>

> (And, in Subliminal Plug #137 for my book, this same fella is an
> expert in Chapter 12 extolling the virtues of the classical guitar
> for medical music.)
>
> Andrew

In that video, it should be obvious to everyone that the cedar sounds
better than the spruce. I'm just sayin'.

Where do you go when you get sick in LA?

-S-

[Curmudgeon]

I'm guessing not Spruce Sinai?

[dsi1]

On Friday, May 6, 2016 at 9:13:18 AM UTC-10, Matt Faunce wrote:

Sounds like you don't much care for Jesus!



:)

[Steve Freides]

Did you know it was Cedars, plural, in the hospital name? I didn't
until yesterday. It was named Cedars of Lebanon along the way, hence
the plural in today's name.

-S-

[Steve Freides]

Uh-oh.

-S-

[Andrew Schulman]

Yes,

A.

[Curmudgeon]

+1

[Matt Faunce]

Jesus was a capricorn too. He died early, so we were denied the best of
Jesus, but he had lots of talent so it goes unnoticed.

--
Matt

[Richard Jernigan]

Last time I talked to Keola Beamer was in the summer of 2001. He was at a concert by Carlos Barbosa-Lima and Byron Kasui. Barbosa-Lima played some fairly conventional classical solos, then he and Byron played some classical guitar duets. The second half of the show was Byron kicking out the jams on ukulele.

Beamer was sitting on the front row of the little auditorium behind the public library in downtown Honolulu, with a handful of more traditional slack key guys. Beamer and I stood in the aisle at intermission and talked mainly classical guitar. He introduced some of the slack key guys, but they didn't have much to say to a haole talking classical guitar.

RNJ

[dsi1]

In 1971, I knew him as a guy that built guitars. I never heard him or my teacher play - they did not enjoy being in the spotlight. I did get a chance to hear them play KB's arrangement of Akaka Falls at a CG Society meeting. It was awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zy7-SZGJ80

The tuning is Keola's own: CGDGBE. I get the feeling that the slack key guitarists here think that leaving the E string an E is pretty goofy. They're not sure how to handle it.

[Richard Jernigan]

It's been way, way too long since I was at Akaka Falls.

http://www.unrealhawaii.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMG_0317-4.jpg

Here's Ledward in a more traditional version of the song:.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4cV27ThHI

RNJ

[dsi1]

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 5:30:33 PM UTC-10, Richard Jernigan wrote:
> It's been way, way too long since I was at Akaka Falls.
>
> http://www.unrealhawaii.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IMG_0317-4.jpg

The amazing thing about this beautiful falls is that there's a little fish that climbs up the falls to the top to its spawning grounds. All 420 feet of it. Of course, this is totally unbelievable. That's the great thing about it. :)

>
> Here's Ledward in a more traditional version of the song:.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF4cV27ThHI

I love that singing. I guess most people on the mainland don't know that falsetto singing is a great tradition in Hawaii.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvm08mtVJ0A

>
> RNJ

[Andrew Schulman]

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 1:01:00 AM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> The amazing thing about this beautiful falls is that there's a little fish that climbs up the falls to the top to its spawning grounds. All 420 feet of it. Of course, this is totally unbelievable. That's the great thing about it. :)
>

Tilapia?

Andrew

[dsi1]

You wish!

[Andrew Schulman]

No I don't. Like you, I think tilapia is disgusting!

Andrew

[Richard Jernigan]

Here's a link (that works) to a photo of the falls.

http://tinyurl.com/hj5oevl

RNJ

[dsi1]

Good show, old chap!

[dsi1]

OTOH, I'd like to try this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nOk4ewNH7c#t=238

[Andrew Schulman]

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 3:39:58 PM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> OTOH, I'd like to try this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nOk4ewNH7c#t=238

FedEx some for my lunch tomorrow.

Andrew

[dsi1]

I can only afford parcel post. Would that be okay?

[Andrew Schulman]

No. Borrow the money.

A.

[dsi1]

After that nasty fiasco that occurred last year, nobody will lend me any money. My suggestion is that you get your hands on the nearest stinkin', nasty, invasive, freshwater fish that's killing off all that local fishes and people hate and then deep fry it all to hell in 600 degree oil. Eat it if you're brave and stupid. If you're smart, get away from it as fast as you can. :)

[Andrew Schulman]

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 2:39:48 AM UTC-4, dsi1 wrote:
> After that nasty fiasco that occurred last year, nobody will lend me any money. My suggestion is that you get your hands on the nearest stinkin', nasty, invasive, freshwater fish that's killing off all that local fishes and people hate and then deep fry it all to hell in 600 degree oil. Eat it if you're brave and stupid. If you're smart, get away from it as fast as you can. :)

It's 2:43 a.m. in New York now. Thanks for this email, now I'll never fall asleep.

Andrew

[dsi1]

Of course I'm talking about Asian Carp, aka, "Mainland Tilapia." :)

[Curmudgeon]

How about snakehead?

[Andrew Schulman]

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 7:26:42 AM UTC-4, Curmudgeon wrote:
> > > It's 2:43 a.m. in New York now. Thanks for this email, now I'll never fall asleep.
> > >
> > > Andrew
> >
> > Of course I'm talking about Asian Carp, aka, "Mainland Tilapia." :)
>
> How about snakehead?

They make nice pets, although they do roll chords.

Andrew

[dsi1]

Sounds like the Asians are trying to convert some American waterways into their own. What a creepy fish! We have some here but I've never seen a big one.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sun, 1 May 2016 17:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
Andrew Schulman <and...@abacaproductions.com> wrote:

> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ihXPVLFCU&feature=youtu.be&t=1h14m11s

There is a much better way to accent and accentuate
the chord in question than rolling it. That is to
make the note or chord preceding a precise staccato,
half its time plus a precisely executed rest. That
makes the preceding note into two for the purposes
of rhythm. These two events, the note and the rest,
create an expectation, so the chord which
follows can be as strongly accented as it is
possible to accent anything. Rolling the chord
merely seeks to imitate what you can get for real
by playing the top note of the chord subliminally
sooner than expected. .

_Try_it_! Make the comparison. It won't happen
if the chord is rolled to any degree whatever,
even the John Williams roll which he does 100
pct of the time. The top note must be first,
then the others, in this instance, to get the
best effect, but simultaneous will do in a
somewhat less satisfactory manner.

Also, keyboard players will settle on the chord
sound which sounds most even to them. That is,
the top note strongest, the low note next, and
the inside voices weakest. (Of course none of
them are the melody in such an example.)
Why? Because that is the way most conducive
to hearing the chord quickly.

Man is the measure of all things.
Regards, Rale

[Matt Faunce]

Hey, look on the bright side: Like Protagoras was misunderstood (as I
believe he was) for seven centuries, maybe sometime around the year 9016 AD
a few people will get what you're talking about.

Protagoras and the Challenge of Relativism: Plato's Subtlest Enemy. By Ugo
Zilioli

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-2265.2009.00484_1.x/full

--
Matt

[Andrew Schulman]

Find a Youtube or other recording of someone doing this and post it.

Andrew

[David Raleigh Arnold]

You can't? I don't believe you.

Regards, Rale

[Andrew Schulman]

Did I say I couldn't do what you described? I asked you to post a Youtube video of someone doing this.

Andrew

[Andrew Schulman]

Still waiting for that Youtube video.

Andrew

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Doing what, exactly? Playing asynchronically? Everybody
does it, except when they're playing chords. Then they
do it halfheartedly and haphazardly. In the first 3 note
chord part of Legnani 20.7, very few had the melody
equal in timbre and forte to what it was playing the
runs. There is no place in that piece for stops and
starts and "expression" alla Segovia. Not one of the
40 or 50 players I saw played the third part, the
easy part, worth a damn, and it's really nice.

The Caprices are the best example of orchestral
guitar that I know of. Legnani wrote lots and
lots of repeated chords, and those pieces don't
lend themselves to the Segovia treatment.

Orchestral guitar was romantic guitar too,
without arpeggiated chords.

Maybe that's why Segovia didn't play them.
I cannot comprehend AG's view that Segovia's
"hands off" Legnani should not
be taken to mean that he did not
like them, and especially for that reason.

One student expressed the view that Legnani
wrote the Caprices to show off what he could
do. Wrong! It was to show what the guitar
could do. In all keys.

While I'm at it, I recently noticed another
instance of bad fingering in Segovia's work
resulting from applying his scale fingering
where it doesn't belong. In the 3-mode
scale passage, A up to G down to D at the
end of the Ciacona, he fingered it
on the B string 02 1242 420. That was because
his scales go to the 4th finger in descending
to minimize shifting. Fine, but he has that
fingering almost to the exclusion
of all other possibilities,
and that was a mistake which I did not make
in my scale set. He "fixed" it by
going to the first string. It apparently
never occurred to him to 012 12421 210,
which should get the job done better, sound
better and be easier too. If he had had my
scales, there would have been no problem,
because he would have practiced all shifts
systematically. Exercises should never
commit you to specific fingerings in
music.

Regards, Rale

[Andrew Schulman]

Dave, all I'm asking is for you to post a YouTube video of someone doing accents the way you describe/recommend they should be done.

Andrew

[Matt Faunce]

David Raleigh Arnold <d...@openguitar.com> wrote:

> Rolling the chord
> merely seeks to imitate what you can get for real
> by playing the top note of the chord subliminally
> sooner than expected.
>

LOL!

>
> _Try_it_! Make the comparison.
>

I did. You're wrong.

--
Matt

[David Raleigh Arnold]

All accents are done the same way. Anytime you hear
an accent, that's an example. Surely you hear
accents?

I can't understand why accents are such a problem.
I can see why someone might have a problem with
the concept of the leading voice, which is fairly
well labeled asynchronic playing, but accents?
How can you play jazz and not understand accents,
and that any note can be accented or not accented?

The beat is the reference point, but accents are
about expectations. Beats are not the only notes
that can be accented. If you have a more general
description than "subliminally before expectation"
I'd love to know of it. It seems to me to cover
every possibility.

n4 | n2

n2 can be anything.

n8 r8 | n2

n2 can be a beat or an accented beat (assuming
a single voice), depending
on when it is played, not on whether it is high,
or long, or loud.

Regards, Rale

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Well, it's criminal to put arpeggios into a fugue anyway.
Regards, Rale

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sat, 14 May 2016 20:41:48 -0400

David Raleigh Arnold <d...@openguitar.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 14 May 2016 23:51:46 -0000 (UTC)
> Matt Faunce <mattf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > David Raleigh Arnold <d...@openguitar.com> wrote:
> > > Rolling the chord
> > > merely seeks to imitate what you can get for real
> > > by playing the top note of the chord subliminally
> > > sooner than expected.
> > >
> >
> > LOL!
> >
> > >
> > > _Try_it_! Make the comparison.
> > >
> >
> > I did. You're wrong.
>
> Well, it's criminal to put arpeggios into a fugue anyway.
> Regards, Rale

And I should have made it clear that the note/rest
creates a situation which _calls_ for a strong
accent. You have to _perform_ the accent. Or any
other accent. If you roll that chord, you have
to play the last note sooner than expected to
accent it. Of course that's automatic because
you've done it so many times. Accenting a chord
or the melody note of a chord is quite a different
matter, but it should not be. With practice, it
won't be.
Regards, Rale
>

[DCaswellUK]

> Well, it's criminal to put arpeggios into a fugue anyway.
> Regards, Rale

Rale,
obviously it's a matter of taste, but largely I agree with this. Take an organ fugue and compare the styling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBYjdMfE24

The fugue starts at around 5 mins. Hardly a rolled chord, and a convenient red line to highlight the fact! You can argue that the organ is a very different instrument, but the musical form is the same...

With regard to the bwv998 fugue, here is the Stephan Schmidt version. He does something similar to your suggestion, using an almost detatched chord before the suspension. He does roll a few chords along the way, not really to my taste, but not too intrusive. Enjoy those low basses, how nice is that low entry in the first section!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZj2c5cgFc

I was surprised at Ben Verdery's advice. The result was very ugly to my ears!

Have you had any thoughts on the Yepes version of the 24 Sor studies as yet?

Kind regards,

David

[Matt Faunce]

DCaswellUK <DCasw...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Well, it's criminal to put arpeggios into a fugue anyway.
>> Regards, Rale
>

> Rale,
> obviously it's a matter of taste, but largely I agree with this. Take an
> organ fugue and compare the styling:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZj2c5cgFc

> The fugue starts at around 5 mins. Hardly a rolled chord, and a
> convenient red line to highlight the fact! You can argue that the organ
> is a very different instrument, but the musical form is the same...
>

> With regard to the bwv998 fugue, here is the Stefan Schmidt version. He

> does something similar to your suggestion, using an almost detatched
> chord before the suspension. He does roll a few chords along the way, not
> really to my taste, but not too intrusive. Enjoy those low basses, how
> nice is that low entry in the first section!

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBYjdMfE24

>
> I was surprised at Ben Verdery's advice. The result was very ugly to my ears!
>

I only listened to the video where it was cued up once, as I don't have a
home internet connection, so maybe I imagined his advice being something it
wasn't. I remember his advice was to roll chords and intervals only to
implant a specific interpretive aspect in the student's mind, then once
that aspect is firmly in the mind to take out the roll but keep that
aspect. Am I wrong about the advice? Or, did you think it was still ugly
after the roll was taken out?


--
Matt

[Andrew Schulman]

On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 8:53:48 AM UTC-4, daveA wrote:
> On Sat, 14 May 2016 15:45:03 -0700 (PDT)
> Andrew Schulman wrote:
>
> > Dave, all I'm asking is for you to post a YouTube
> video of someone doing accents the way you
> describe/recommend they should be done.
>
> All accents are done the same way.

No, not all accents are done the same way. Look it up.

> Anytime you hear
> an accent, that's an example. Surely you hear
> accents?
>

Surely.

I'll repeat for the last time, post a YouTube video of anyone on any instrument demonstrating what
you posted earlier, here are your words again:

"Rolling the chord
merely seeks to imitate what you can get for real
by playing the top note of the chord subliminally
sooner than expected."

Andrew

[Andrew Schulman]

On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 12:43:32 PM UTC-4, DCaswellUK wrote:
> Rale,
> obviously it's a matter of taste, but largely I agree with this. Take an organ fugue and compare the styling:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBYjdMfE24
>
> The fugue starts at around 5 mins. Hardly a rolled chord, and a convenient red line to highlight the fact! You can argue that the organ is a very different instrument, but the musical form is the same...

Hi David, Hope you don't mind if I throw in my 2cts although you addressed this to Rale. In general there is the issue that comparing organ music and guitar music is apples and oranges. Then there is the question of form. You would not want to roll chords much in a fugue because of the counterpoint, but you would in a prelude if there are a lot of chords. There is more room in the BWV 998 fugue to do so because of the writing. I do agree that you must be careful about rolling chords, I think that's been said from the beginning by people responding to Rale's comments that one should never roll a chord, which I'll say is very bad advice.

Here's an excellent version of that fugue with very skillful use of rolled chords, not often but very effective where he does it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uApiRD7GB8

>
>
> I was surprised at Ben Verdery's advice. The result was very ugly to my ears!

I was surprised too to hear him say to roll all of them but I think that was to get the student to loosen up in his playing, which he needed. Anyway, I thought it was the perfect opportunity to start a thread with the subject heading, "The Anti-Christ of Rolled Chords!".
>
Andrew

[DCaswellUK]

On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 7:14:44 PM UTC+1, Andrew Schulman wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2016 at 12:43:32 PM UTC-4, DCaswellUK wrote:
> > Rale,
> > obviously it's a matter of taste, but largely I agree with this. Take an organ fugue and compare the styling:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBYjdMfE24
> >
> > The fugue starts at around 5 mins. Hardly a rolled chord, and a convenient red line to highlight the fact! You can argue that the organ is a very different instrument, but the musical form is the same...
>
> Hi David, Hope you don't mind if I throw in my 2cts although you addressed this to Rale. In general there is the issue that comparing organ music and guitar music is apples and oranges. Then there is the question of form. You would not want to roll chords much in a fugue because of the counterpoint, but you would in a prelude if there are a lot of chords. There is more room in the BWV 998 fugue to do so because of the writing. I do agree that you must be careful about rolling chords, I think that's been said from the beginning by people responding to Rale's comments that one should never roll a chord, which I'll say is very bad advice.

Hi Andrew,
I think that my response to this thread is in part a reaction to the underlying implication that a piece played entirely without rolled chords is in some way dull or lacking in expression.
Ben Verdery says that rolled chords are a guitarist's greatest 'gift', but they can also be a great curse. This because they so easily become an engrained part of the technique, done, not only without consideration, but habitually.
Perhaps we should consider the reasons we might choose for rolling a chord:

emphasis; extra sustain; to make a chord 'prettier'; to add extra emotion?

and consider the consequence of chord rolling:

possible loss of rhythm; over sentimentality, tedious on the ear if used predictably..

Perhaps if we thought of the rolled chord as an ornament, much like a mordent, trill etc, then this might lead to a more considered use of this device.


In the final analysis it is the job of each player to convince the listener as to the validity of his interpretation. Having listened to the lute player you recommended, I went on to listen to quite a number of interpretations of that 998 Fugue. Some were quite surprising: there is a performance by Richter on the piano! There are couple of versions on the lute harpsichord, supposedly the originally intended instrument for this work. I particularly enjoyed the performance of Goran Sollscher and one by a young David Russell.
Kind regards,
David

[DCaswellUK]

Matt,
it's really a question of taste. If the intention was to use the roll to encourage the student to lengthen the 'suspension' then to my taste that would be overly romantic. The effect of: ta- tiiiiah- ta.., ta- tiiiah- ta..
Obviously each player will have their own opinion and play it accordingly.
Regards,
David

[Andrew Schulman]

On Monday, May 16, 2016 at 4:16:04 AM UTC-4, DCaswellUK wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> I think that my response to this thread is in part a reaction to the underlying implication that a piece played entirely without rolled chords is in some way dull or lacking in expression.
> Ben Verdery says that rolled chords are a guitarist's greatest 'gift', but they can also be a great curse. This because they so easily become an engrained part of the technique, done, not only without consideration, but habitually.
> Perhaps we should consider the reasons we might choose for rolling a chord:
>
> emphasis; extra sustain; to make a chord 'prettier'; to add extra emotion?
>
> and consider the consequence of chord rolling:
>
> possible loss of rhythm; over sentimentality, tedious on the ear if used predictably..
>
> Perhaps if we thought of the rolled chord as an ornament, much like a mordent, trill etc, then this might lead to a more considered use of this device.
>

David, there have been several threads in the past month on this topic, I think the others preceded this one. Hence the tongue-in-cheek nature of my opening subject heading. There were a good number of posts that agreed with what you wrote, including several from me.
>
> In the final analysis it is the job of each player to convince the listener as to the validity of his interpretation...

Absolutely, that's what it all boils down to.

Andrew

[Steve Freides]

Has anyone said that sometimes there are technical considerations, e.g.,
you can get one finger down in time but not the others? I know I've
resorted to this and probably still do from time to time?

And if no one's said it, then I do, k?

-S-

[dsi1]

I do this - sometimes you just have to do it. It's kind of a cheat but it works great!

[David Raleigh Arnold]

if the melody is in the bass, no problem. If not, problem.
Regards, Rale

[David Raleigh Arnold]

On Sun, 15 May 2016 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
DCaswellUK <DCasw...@aol.com> wrote:

> Have you had any thoughts on the Yepes version of the 24 Sor studies as yet?

I listened to all. In some I preferred his playing, in others not.
SS6 I liked the muting to play as written, but not to the point
of staccato.

Writing up Legnani op. 20 is a much higher priority for me,
because none of them are suited to Segovia's style. In
no. 7, which has 40-50 versions on youTube, you clearly
hear that the more Segoviatized it is, the worse it is,
and the most accomplished players are the worst offenders.
The most alarming thing, but not surprising, is how *all*
of them mess up the easy part in the middle, which is
written out arpeggios in /loco/ (open position)!

Regards, Rale

Regards, Rale

[Andrew Schulman]

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 5:00:39 PM UTC-4, daveA wrote:
> Writing up Legnani op. 20 is a much higher priority for me,
> because none of them are suited to Segovia's style. In
> no. 7, which has 40-50 versions on youTube, you clearly
> hear that the more Segoviatized it is, the worse it is,
> and the most accomplished players are the worst offenders.
> The most alarming thing, but not surprising, is how *all*
> of them mess up the easy part in the middle, which is
> written out arpeggios in /loco/ (open position)!
>
> Regards, Rale

That's an excellent etude, all of them are.

Andrew

[tom g]

No, Matt, you are not wrong. If I were Benjamin Verdery, I dont think I would be very amused.

tom g

[Matt Faunce]

Thanks. I audited a Verdery masterclass twenty years ago where he advocated
thinking as if the music you're making has sustain like a trumpet or
violin, or to put it more accurately, he advocated playing in your mind a
track parallel with what your guitar is actually making, but make the
mental track have controllable sustain. This is a way to better get the
contour of dynamic shading, from note to note, optimal. I suppose this
previous knowledge primed me to expect what was going on in this video,
guarding me against jumping to the wrong conclusion.

Also, I think to most seasoned players it's apparent that Verdery wanted
the student to exaggerate the (mental, sustained) effects at first, to get
the feel of it; only after feeling this exaggeration is it good to pull in
the reins. It's not advisable for a student who doesn't do a technique at
all to start doing it with subtle application. As for Andrew, if it's
expected that it's widely understood that the above description was the
teaching technique Verdery employed in the video, as it should be because
it's common, then introducing it with the subject title "The Anti-Christ of
Rolled Chords!" is very funny! The joke is the assumption that these
exaggerations were the end goal. For anyone familiar with Verdery's playing
or common teaching practice it'll be taken as absurd humor. Putting
"Anti-Christ" should have made the comedic intent obvious.

(Geez, explaining a simple joke that takes more work than I thought.)

--
Matt

[Andrew Schulman]

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 7:38:50 PM UTC-4, Matt Faunce wrote:
> (Geez, explaining a simple joke that takes more work than I thought.)
>
> --
> Matt

It certainly was intended just to put some humor into the multitude of "rolling chords" threads we had been having for a while. Another way of saying, "Thanks Obama."

Andrew

[tom g]

On Wednesday, May 18, 2016 at 1:38:50 AM UTC+2, Matt Faunce wrote:

Isnt it difficult to explain because the use of "Anti-Christ" has one implication in the context of understanding what Benjamin Verdery said, and another when it has not been understood?

tom g

[Matt Faunce]

Well, it appears that it wasn't understood, which did cause me some
concern. But that only became apparent after many responses. I still
appreciate the intended joke of the initial post.

--
Matt

[Matt Faunce]

That's what I thought, that Obama, as well as Putin, takes orders from
Benjamin Verdery. I suspect Li Keqiang (premier of China) does too.

--
Matt

[Andrew Schulman]

On Tuesday, May 17, 2016 at 9:14:16 PM UTC-4, Matt Faunce wrote:

Now you finally understand what people mean when they say, "Ben Rules".

[David Raleigh Arnold]

They *are* Etudes too. Calling them Caprices was a
commercial decision, IMO, and IIRC
there is a letter written by Legnani
proving that point.

#7 especially shows that to be effective
*sometimes* dynamics must be subtle. If
they are not, because the player thinks
she/he is imitating Segovia,
they sound ridiculous. Are some heavy
hitters trying to cover for the fact that
they can't play the melody within a 3 note
chord at the same level as the 16ths in
the runs? Could that be because they roll
instead of practicing that? Do I care?
Not at all. The point is to understand
that when you roll a chord there is always
a price to pay. The least part of it is that when
you gain an arpeggio you lose a chord.

I finally realized too that my impression
of Granados being a lousy pianist relied
a piano roll. A piano roll gets the notes
right, but the dynamics? I don't think so.
The odds against accuracy are astronomical.

Prestissimo is not all that fast for half beats.
I learned #7 and had it at the top of the
metronome very late in life.
Some heavy hitters play it so fast that it
is hardly music, but you still notice the
totally unnecessary mistakes they make.

Why 314 not 131 on double 8ves? Noise.

Regards, Rale