1969 Ramirez 1A Brazilian Rosewood on ebay
nettie
I have a 1969 Ramirez for sale on ebay. If you are interested please
visit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1488141214
You may also contact me directly by email.
Best wishes,
Steve
Bascom King
that designation show on the lable? I have seen another Ramirez
instrument said to be a 1A but the lable has a red boundry and it also
said it was a Segovia model but was subsequently said, by asking the
people at Guitar Salon, to not be a 1A. From the pictures, it appears
that the neck color is not the light, similar to the soundboard color that
all the 1As I have seen.
It was interesting that there were no bids on this guitar - what a shame.
--
Bascom H. King
Ray Kelly
Segovia model sticker was just a marketing device used by Jim Sherry when he
was the Ramirez distributor. For info on Ramirez guitars made during the
Sherry/Brener distribution years you can go to the following site:
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/
Ray
"Bascom King" <b...@coyote.rain.org> wrote in message
news:9ttti3$eug$1...@news.rain.org...
Gary Rodriguez
I've got a 1969 Ramirez guitar. However, I never heard of the "1A"
designation, nor is "1A" anywhere on the label. It also has the Segovia
sticker, but it's glued to a gold label, not a red one.
The Segovia sticker can probably be peeled off and placed on a cheaper
model. Or maybe the Segovia sticker is a fake and then attached to a Ramirez
student guitar.
http://ampcast.com/garyrodriguez
"Bascom King" <b...@coyote.rain.org> wrote in message
news:9ttti3$eug$1...@news.rain.org...
Gary Rodriguez
top-of-the-line Segovia model was "Top: Fine grain old Spanish Pine and
"Back & sides: Rare gold Palosanto." There was no mention of Brazilian
Rosewood.
http://ampcast.com/garyrodriguez
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3JON7.137086$WW.86...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Ray Kelly
(Palosanto), and the 2A models were made from Brazilian rosewood
(Jacaranda). Although the Indian rosewood has been known to be a better
quality wood in some respects than the Brazilian rosewood, the 2A guitars
are more expensive than the 1A guitars because the Brazilian rosewood was
more difficult to come by. This is only pertinent to Ramirez guitars built
between 1969 and 1978 during the Sherry/Brener distribution years.
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:5lSO7.207573$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Larry Deack
> I believe the 1A models at that time were built with Indian rosewood
> (Palosanto), and the 2A models were made from Brazilian rosewood
> (Jacaranda). Although the Indian rosewood has been known to be a better
> quality wood in some respects than the Brazilian rosewood, the 2A guitars
> are more expensive than the 1A guitars because the Brazilian rosewood was
> more difficult to come by. This is only pertinent to Ramirez guitars
built
> between 1969 and 1978 during the Sherry/Brener distribution years.
I have a red label 1973 No. 1031. I do not know about the 1A or 2A terms
being applied to my guitar but it is Brazilian. Casa Sherry-Brener did
attach 2 small gold labels to the larger one that say it's a "Modelo
Segovia" and the bit about "Casa Sherry-Brener Ltd. I thought the red and
blue labels were somewhat arbitrary. Did 1A and 2A have red and blue labels?
I think I've heard several stories about what I've got :-)
Ray Kelly
seen the 1A models have a blue outlined label and the 2A models have a red
outlined label. The labels changed a bit throughout the 60's and 70's but
this is the way most of the Ramirez guitars were labeled between 1969 and
1978. I've spoken with Jim Sherry a couple of times when I was up in
Chicago and he confirmed that the 2A was made from Brazilian rosewood and 1A
was made from Indian rosewood. I also studied with a guy who worked for Jim
Sherry at one point and he said the same thing. This is all based upon the
word of Jim Sherry, but I think it's pretty reliable.
Ray
"Larry Deack" <cg...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9uj6hr$gbe$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
Sean Winkler
The source I have always referred to is the article by Tim Miklaucic,
found on the GSI web site. He presents the contents of a letter by Jose
Ramirez III that clarifies the distinction. According to this article,
the blue label corresponds to the 1A, while the red label corresponds to
the 2A.
I can't provide a hard link due to the way the GSI site is laid out. Go
to http://www.guitarsalon.com/ and navigate your way through the
Learning Center, to Articles, to Ramirez Myths.
Sean Winkler
Larry Deack
> The source I have always referred to is the article by Tim Miklaucic,
> found on the GSI web site. He presents the contents of a letter by Jose
> Ramirez III that clarifies the distinction. According to this article,
> the blue label corresponds to the 1A, while the red label corresponds to
> the 2A.
Yep, got the article, thanks. My 2A sounds just as good as my '84 1A but the
back did crack a bit at the join and had to be repaired.
Ray Kelly
http://www.guitarsalon.com/article_ramirez_myths_fr.shtml
Of course to take what Tim Miklaucic or George Dauphanais have to say about
the Sherry/Brener distribution years can be a little misleading at times.
They are both direct competitors to Jim Sherry for Ramirez guitars. Jim
Sherry told an old instructor of mine, who worked for Jim at one point, that
the relationship between Jim and Jose III deteriorated when Jim Sherry found
out that Jose III was using some of the wood that Jim was sending to Jose
(to make guitars) for furniture and the trimming in Jose's new house. At
that point Jim angrily dissolved the relationship. Jose sent a letter to
the new distributor (George Dauphanais) saying that the relationship ended
because he was mad about the "segovia model" stickers on the guitars. Now
which of the four (Tim Miklaucic, George Dauphanais, Jim Sherry, or Jose
Ramirez III) is telling the real truth? These guys are all salesmen.
I think one truth can be extracted. The 1A guitars were made from Indian
rosewood (Palasanto) and had a blue label, and the 2A guitars were made from
Brazilian rosewood (Jacaranda) and had a red label. (For Ramirez guitars
made between 1969 and 1978)
Ray
"Sean Winkler" <se...@cfm.brown.edu> wrote in message
news:3C0D27A3...@cfm.brown.edu...
Larry Deack
> I think one truth can be extracted. The 1A guitars were made from Indian
> rosewood (Palasanto) and had a blue label, and the 2A guitars were made
from
> Brazilian rosewood (Jacaranda) and had a red label. (For Ramirez guitars
> made between 1969 and 1978)
Thanks Ray
Gary Rodriguez
terms for the same wood according to this site:
http://www.gothamguitars.com/dictionary/index.cfm
Gary
"Ray Kelly" <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:WZ7P7.2120$f75.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Ray Kelly
marketing distinction between the two woods. I don't know much about
rosewood so I really couldn't say why he uses these terms in his marketing
materials. Jim are you out there?
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3xqP7.210774$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Khai
> rosewood (Palasanto) and had a blue label, and the 2A guitars were made from
> Brazilian rosewood (Jacaranda) and had a red label. (For Ramirez guitars
> made between 1969 and 1978)
The above generalisations are not valid.
I have seen Ramirez 1A Brazilian Rosewood guitars, and I currently
have a blue-labelled Brazilian Rosewood, 1973 Ramirez 1A guitar:
Here's the label: http://www.kslay.com/ramirez1a_1973_Braz/5.html.
Here's the gorgeous Brazilian Rosewood:
http://www.kslay.com/ramirez1a_1973_Braz/11.html
And by the way, it's available for sale.
Sincerely,
Khai
http://www.kslay.com/
Ray Kelly
I not saying that it isn't, but according to Jim Sherry the 1A's were made
from Indian rosewood between 1969 and 1978. Now if it was made custom by
the Ramirez shop and not distributed through Jim Sherry, then it is very
possible.
"Khai" <ks...@kslay.com> wrote in message
news:a18a4fcb.01120...@posting.google.com...
Gary Rodriguez
I've seen over 20 listings of Ramirez guitars and not one of them has Pine.
They are all Cedar or Spruce. What happened to the Pine ramirez?
Gary
"Ray Kelly" <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aaxP7.6607$Zr.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Terry Gaschen
<kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I believe the 1A models at that time were built with Indian rosewood
> (Palosanto), and the 2A models were made from Brazilian rosewood
> (Jacaranda).
That's totally wrong. The 1As were built with Brazilian or indian Rosewood
and the 2As were 1As which had flaws in the finish or the wood. They were
what is called factory "seconds" Most of them were as good as the "firsts"
(1As). I didn't start seeing 2As until 1973. I'm not sure how long Jim
Sherry had been importing them by that time but I spent an entire Sunday
afternoon in his shop trying out about thirty of them before I took two
back home to Texas. It was from Jim Sherry that I learned the difference
between the two models. There was a huge difference in the wholesale price
of the two models at that time. It was a real incentive top go for the 2A.
My 1969 Ramirez was a 1A which was chosen from the heap o' guitars of Jim
Sherry by Christopher Parkening. It had flamed Brazilian Rosewood and was
really Sweet. I payed 1500$ for it in 1972. I think it was sold eventually
for over $6000. I'm sure there is somebody lurking out there who remembers
this deal. The thing about these guitars is that they have the maker's
initials on the heel inside the guitar. Mine was an "AM" My favorite maker
was MT. This was according to some the initials of Mariano Tezano.
Terry G
Ray Kelly
family? The current Sherry/Brener marketing materials still refer to the
tops of their guitars as being pine. I think they may be using the terms
pine and cedar interchangeably. I wish I was an authority on distinguishing
the differences between different types of wood. How can you tell the
difference between Brazilian rosewood and Indian rosewood? I believe I
heard that Indian rosewood has a more uniform grain, but that is just
speculation on my part.
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:PLBP7.251525$W8.91...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Ray Kelly
rosewood? Is that how you can tell the difference? Do you know why the
2A's that Jim Sherry currently has in his stock are more expensive than the
1A models? Here is a link to his current marketing materials:
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/catalog/index.asp
"Terry Gaschen" <gas...@rice.edu> wrote in message
news:gaschen-0612...@guitar.rice.edu...
Gary Rodriguez
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/ramirez_palo_santo/ramirez_palo_santo.asp
There is a definite difference in the woods of his 1A and 2A. More than just
flaws in the same type of wood.
I believe that the Sherry-Brener descriptions of the Segovia Model woods is
accurate. Probably used-guitar dealers have applied whatever description
they wanted in reselling these guitars. My Sherry-Brener brochure (1969) for
the Segovia Model is identical to what he is offering today for the 1A.
Also, according to my brochure there are Segovia Models in Spanish Pine,
Ignacio Fleta in Silver Tree Spruce, Domingo Esteso in Alps Spruce, Santos
Hernandez in Bavarian Spruce, Marcelino Barbero in Spanish Pine, etc.
These are very specific descriptions which leads me to believe they are
accurate. I think that accuracy of wood descriptions have been lost over
time and in it's place have been put names that are currently in vogue.
How does someone know the construction of their Ramirez if they didn't get a
brochure with the new guitar? They can't be sure what wood is in it.
Gary
http://ampcast.com/garyrodriguez
"Terry Gaschen" <gas...@rice.edu> wrote in message
news:gaschen-0612...@guitar.rice.edu...
Evan Pyle
least reliable of all, whether he be the seller or no...
Spanish pine is simply cedar. No modern Spanish luthier I am aware refers
to this wood as "Spanish pine", but as "cedro" (cedar).
I can think few people more qualified to give the straight poop than T.
Gaschen.
--
Evan Pyle
Gary Rodriguez <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ygSP7.252347$W8.92...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
William D Clinger
> That's a good question. Are both cedar and spruce apart of the pine tree
> family?
Yes, true cedars and spruces are part of the pine family (Pinaceae).
Western redcedar is in the cypress family (Cupressaceae).
> The current Sherry/Brener marketing materials still refer to the
> tops of their guitars as being pine. I think they may be using the terms
> pine and cedar interchangeably.
Could be. Many people use the word "pine" for all conifers.
Will
Alison Causton
>
> Ray Kelly wrote:
> > That's a good question. Are both cedar and spruce apart of the pine tree
> > family?
>
> Yes, true cedars and spruces are part of the pine family (Pinaceae).
> Western redcedar is in the cypress family (Cupressaceae).
Then there's Thuja occidentalis <White Cedar> which is native to the
Great Lakes Basin, southern Québec, & the Maritimes in North America and
is a member of the Cupressaceae family. Is White Cedar ever used in luthiery?
We also have Juniperus virginiana a.k.a. Eastern redcedar: how does
that relate, if it does, to Western redcedar? and is it, the Eastern,
ever used by luthiers?
Alison
Gary Rodriguez
available.
Here is a problem I have before I say that Pine is Cedar:
In my brochure the word PINE and CEDAR are used independently. Do I believe
that he made those terms up as he went along not knowing what he was putting
in his brochure? Why would I assume it and how would I know the contrary?
Is cedar the same as pine? I've looked at cabinet maker sites and they don't
use the terms to describe the same wood.
Until some independent cabinet makers* determine that the Segovia Model
listed as Pine is really Cedar. I'm sticking with the brochure.
*I wouldn't consult guitar makers as they are part of the guitar
world/controversy.
But my mind is still open on the subject.
Gary
"Evan Pyle" <enp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:FITP7.48683$Sx.13...@news1.elcjn1.sdca.home.com...
Steven Bornfeld
and pine are distinct. I'd never heard of "Spanish" pine. Maybe it's like
miner's strawberries!
Steve
Evan Pyle
--
Steven Bornfeld <mari...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3C10DAF5...@hotmail.com...
> This discussion is an eye opener. Obviously, in a botanical sense,
cedar
> and pine are distinct. I'd never heard of "Spanish" pine. Maybe it's
like
> miner's strawberries!
Indeed! The only place I have ever heard of "Spanish" pine is in the
literature & on the labels of Sherry-distributed guitars. If Ramirez III
guitars ever used top wood other than spruce or cedar I'd be very surprised.
Perhaps they have tried redwood in the past.
I'm thinking that Gary could email Amalia Ramirez for the official answer.
Failing that, he could email the folks at Guitar Salon Int'l since they are
the current official US distributor for Ramirez
Evan
Terry Gaschen
<kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
> I think one truth can be extracted. The 1A guitars were made from Indian
> rosewood (Palasanto) and had a blue label, and the 2A guitars were made from
> Brazilian rosewood (Jacaranda) and had a red label. (For Ramirez guitars
> made between 1969 and 1978)
>
Well, sorry but that truth you extracted is patently false in several
ways. Let me explain. First of all ask yourself why Ramirez would charge
less for a guitar made out of Brazilian Rosewood which cost him more and
charge more for a guitar made of Indian Rosewood which cost him less. Does
that make sense? Why, again, would he choose the cheaper (although not
necessarily inferior musically or mechanically) wood for his top guitar?
The answer is that he didn't. As I have already explained somewhere else
in this thread the original 1A was either Brazilian or Indian.
Now, to repeat, I owned a 1969 Brazilian Rosewood Ramirez (1A), my first
concert guitar. I visited Jim Sherry in 1973 and spent an afternoon trying
out guitars. Just Jim, me and his cat. During that visit he explained the
difference between the 1A and the 2A by claiming 2As were 1As which had
slight finish flaws, ie, they were factory seconds. In other words they
were every bit as good as the 1As except cosmetically. The wholesale price
on the 2As was significantly lower than that of the 1As. Now when or if
that ever changed I cannot tell you. I do know that later when I started
importing Ramirez directly for my store in Houston (Guitar Gallery) I was
only able to obtain the 1A model because Sherry bought all the seconds.
Later Ramirez went nuts and produced all the other models but in the early
Seventies and before there was really only one concert model and then the
seconds produced inadvertantly, according to Jim Sherry at the time I
visited him.
Then again I could be having a Senior Moment of Biblical proportions.
Anywho I have played lots of 1As with Brazilian Rosewood. I quit importing
guitars in about 1983 so whatever happened after that I can't tell you. I
think there was a long period in which there was not a 1A or 2A but I
might be wrong. However I know someone who knows and I will try to get in
touch with them.
Hope this confuses the issue,
Terry G
Ray Kelly
'85 from my instructor and at that time Jim Sherry had the 2A's priced
higher than the 1A's on his price list as he still does today. I wonder if
he just doesn't have any new 1A's left in stock made from Brazilian rosewood
and the 2A's that he bought up were all made from Brazilian rosewood. That
is the only way I can justify the difference in his pricing.
I'm still a bit confused, but am quite happy with my instrument in any case.
I guess that is all that really matters!
Ray
"Terry Gaschen" <gas...@rice.edu> wrote in message
news:gaschen-0712...@guitar.rice.edu...
Gary Rodriguez
would be Jose Ramirez 111 (impossible), Andres Segovia (impossible) or James
Sherry (indelicate question.) But if someone else asked, I would be very
interested in the answer.
Take a look at a quote from the GSI site:
José Ramírez III:
"This use of cedar was one of the most important and significant
developments in the history of the modern guitar. If anyone doubts this,
consider that this wood has become the preferred soundboard material for the
instruments of the majority of guitar-playing concert artists, including
Pepe Romero, John Williams, Christopher Parkening and Manuel Barrueco, to
name a few. It also became the preferred wood for tops among several of the
world's most acclaimed luthiers, such as Ignacio Fleta, Daniel Friederich
and Miguel Rodríguez Jr. Another remarkable and central innovation occurred
in the 1960s when, most probably at the request or influence of Andrés
Segovia, José III began to introduce the long string length of 664 mm in his
guitars. This gave the instrument more power to project in a large concert
hall and also accommodated the huge hands of the maestro. Although it has in
recent years fallen out of favour, this increased string length became the
standard among guitar makers and guitarists throughout the 1960s and l970s,
and is still preferred today by many performers who need to fill large
concert halls, or those who are lucky enough to find themselves playing with
an orchestra."
Notice that Andres Segovia is not mentioned as a user of Cedar soundboard
material. Why? Maybe Segovia played on a Ramirez with FINE GRAIN OLD SPANISH
PINE as indicated in the Segovia model brochure.
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/ramirez_palo_santo/ramirez_palo_santo.asp
Well, it's too late to add Segovia's name to the GSI article as an
afterthought. Yes, a majority of artists used Cedar, but perhaps not
Segovia. Nevertheless I'm still open to learning the truth about this
matter.
Good luck, gary
"Evan Pyle" <enp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Vp5Q7.49535$Sx.13...@news1.elcjn1.sdca.home.com...
Ray Kelly
that might help to clarify the "Spanish Pine" question:
"Another misconception is that Canadian cedar, often known to guitar makers
as Spanish pine, which has been used for years on fine classical guitars,
can't take the stresses of steel string guitars. In the past few years
several West Coast guitar makers have been using cedar on steel string
guitars with excellent results. Some guitar makers are also now using
redwood tops. All in all, there is a tremendous amount of luck involved."
Here is the link to the site:
http://www.mugwumps.com/started.htm
The Spanish pine Jim Sherry refers to is Cedar.
Ray
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:na9Q7.213555$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Richard Jernigan
<snip>
> *I wouldn't consult guitar makers as they are part of the guitar
> world/controversy.
>
> But my mind is still open on the subject.
>
> Gary
<snip>
How about consulting a guitar maker named Jose Ramirez III? In his book,
"Things About the Guitar" published by Soneto, there is an entire chapter about
the wood Thuja Plicata, commonly called Western Red Cedar. It is neither
Spanish nor pine, coming from the northwest coast of North America. Ramirez
began using this wood exclusively for tops in the 1a models, both classical and
flamenco, somewhere around 1965-66. (I don't have my books here, where I am on
a fairly long-term assignment.) I have owned a 1a Ramirez flamenco since 1967,
and have conversed on a number of occasions with Ramirez at his shop in Madrid.
I remember a Sherry brochure from the '60s with the same 'Old Spanish Pine'
description, which was patently false according to any established English
language usage in the wood trades or business.
I also spoke with Jim Sherry twice that I remember, in company with a friend
from Chicago who had patronized Sherry's shop regularly.
I recollect Sherry's accounts of events, materials, business dealings and
conversations varying considerably from Ramirez'.
RNJ
--
Posted from [207.12.27.26]
via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Richard Jernigan
with Brazilian back and sides and cedar tops.
http://www.classicalguitarnet.com/ Bruce Banister, Fine and Rare Classical
Guitars.
http://www.guitarsalon.com/ Guitar Salon International, Tim Miklaucik (SP?)
http://www.dzguitars.com/guitars_classical.html Dan Zeff Guitars (also has a
1972 1a Cedar/Indian)
These are experienced, reputable and respected dealers. It would be remarkable
if all were mistaken.
I remember playing several 1a classicals in Ramirez' shop from 1973 through
1991. Through the '70s and early '80s Ramirez himself was often present in the
public part of the shop. Most of the 1as he described as 'palosanto de
Brasil'.
On a couple of occasions when no description had been given, he confirmed that
the instrument was 'palosanto de India'. Ramirez had a reputation for
integrity,
and for having made a careful study of many subjects related to the instrument
and its construction.
William D Clinger
> Then there's Thuja occidentalis <White Cedar> which is native to the
> Great Lakes Basin, southern Québec, & the Maritimes in North America and
> is a member of the Cupressaceae family. Is White Cedar ever used in luthiery?
(I don't know anything about luthiery, but I own a field
guide.) A mature Thuja occidentalis is one to three feet
in diameter, so they may be a little small for guitar tops.
Western redcedars (Thuja plicata) are much larger.
> We also have Juniperus virginiana a.k.a. Eastern redcedar: how does
> that relate, if it does, to Western redcedar? and is it, the Eastern,
> ever used by luthiers?
Same family, different genus. Too small for tops: one
to two feet in diameter.
I don't know whether American trees have anything to do
with European luthiery, but I like to be reminded of my
favorite trees.
Will
Alison Causton
...
> I don't know whether American trees have anything to do
> with European luthiery, but I like to be reminded of my
> favorite trees.
OK: American Fringetree, Kentucky Coffeetree, Shellbark Hickory
(filigree branching effect in wintertime), Tuliptree, Black Walnut,
Sycamore, and Swamp White Oak. ...long time 'til spring, eh, Will :-)))).
ac
Gary Rodriguez
the Segovia Model designation of his guitars by Sherry-Brener. This is from
a letter dated 1983.
Unfortunately, 1983 is too late to be upset. My Sherry-Brener sales brochure
is from 1969 and has the Segovia Model featured. If Sr. Ramirez was going to
get upset, it should have happened before 14 years elapsed. Because of his
silence (in writing) for 14 years, he approved of the Segovia Model label.
And because of his silence he also accepted the Sherry-Brener description of
the Segovia Model being made of Pine/Palasanto/Jacaranda and not cedar.
In 1967 Sherry-Brener's GUITARRA magazine, Sr. Ramirez went so far as to
praise the very magazine that contained an advertisement for Segovia Model
guitars.
And during this time the great Andres Segovia, who is to the guitar what
Paganini is to the violin, associtated with and befriended James Sherry.
Segovia also allowed his name to be put on those Ramirez guitars without any
protest in writing.
gary
"Richard Jernigan" <rnjer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aa66c950d131a74adc8...@mygate.mailgate.org...
ray kelly
Palasanto = Indian Rosewood
Jacaranda = Brazilian Rosewood
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qotQ7.148655$WW.95...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gary Rodriguez
This guitar is definitely different in appearance from the Segovia Model.
This proves that there were two different models at the time and that
Segovia Models were not relabled Ramirez guitars. The Segovia Model is the
one Segovia played.
Gary
"Richard Jernigan" <rnjer...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aa66c950d131a74adc8...@mygate.mailgate.org...
Evan Pyle
asked questions and when the answers started coming in you have argued each
point, stubbornly holding your incorrect notions.
--Evan Pyle
BTW, the "Segovia" model was indeed relabeled...
Spanish pine is not a term recognized by Ramirez.
Oh, and no less an authority than Richard Brune has been oft quoted as
saying the label is the least reliable piece of information on a guitar.
Except, of course, Sherry's literature.
Gary Rodriguez <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:lSuQ7.148723$WW.95...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gary Rodriguez
I just asked a question and then answers started coming in. So I challanged
the answers. It's a habit of mine.
I hope it doesn't offend anyone.
Anyways, I won't be challenging for long. Sunday I am going on a Caribbean
cruise for a week. The only things I will be questioning are the yard-long
tequillas and Cuban Cohiba cigars at Sr. Frogs in cozumel, Mexico.
Best, gary
"Evan Pyle" <enp...@home.com> wrote in message
news:_8vQ7.52697$Sx.14...@news1.elcjn1.sdca.home.com...
Gary Rodriguez
I read once, but can't verify today, that Jacaranda wood harvesting is
illegal. If this is true, then just the scarcity alone would drive up the
price.
gary
"Ray Kelly" <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0qMP7.21282$kV4.5...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Evan Pyle
full story...about what we call Brazilian rosewood, aka jacaranda. However
only some 2A's were jacaranda, the rest were Indian.
--
Evan Pyle
Gary Rodriguez <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:_LAQ7.215771$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
ray kelly
Brazilian rosewood from a couple luthiers on the eskimo list. Here they
are:
"Ray Kelly asked:
<<I've been curious lately as to how one can tell the difference between a
guitar made with Indian rosewood as opposed to one made with Brazilian
rosewood.>>
Usually it's not too difficult to tell one from the other, but there are
times when it can be quite troublesome. Straight grained well quartered
Brazilian and Indian can be very similar in appearance, particularly some of
the older Indian. A little fading under a good coat of orange shellac and
the
difference can be pretty minimal.
One tip off that you are looking at Brazilian is 'spiderwebbing'; the black
streaks of color that develop when the tree is over mature or attacked by
some sort of insect or fungus. I've never seen this in Indian rosewood, but
it does not appear in all samples of Brazilian either. Brazilian usually
looks a little 'redder' to me, and it can fade to a fairly light orange that
I've never seen in Indian rosewood. Indian starts out more 'purple' and
tends
to fade to a more neutral brown. All of this is strongly influenced by the
finish and exposure to light: I have seen a Brazilian rosewood grand piano
that had a quite definite 'print' of a window on the top.
There are people who claim to be able to hear the difference between Indian
and Brazilian quite accurately, but I'm not one of them. I believe that, on
the average, Brazilian rosewood has somewhat more potential for producing a
'good' sound that Indian, but the range is so wide for both woods that
there's a lot of overlap. The best Indian rosewood has a lot more potential
than the worst Brazilian. Then you get into the question of whether the
builder of the guitars is able to realize all of the potential of the wood,
which brings in esthetic judgements and gets to be a real can of worms in a
hurry.
The one really definitive distinguishing trait I've found over the years is
the smell of the two woods as they are worked. Both have a nice odor, but
Indian's is more 'pungent' or 'earthy' while that of Brazilian is 'sweeter'
and more 'rosy' to me. It's one of my favorite smells, and exists even in
very old wood when it is cut. The problem is that you can't very well take a
saw to every guitar you are curious about!
Alan Carruth / Luthier"
AND
"In a message dated 12/7/2001 9:40:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
AlCa...@aol.com writes:
Brazilian rosewood has somewhat more potential for producing a
'good' sound that Indian, but the range is so wide for both woods that
there's a lot of overlap. The best Indian rosewood has a lot more
potential
than the worst Brazilian.
Al has nicely delineated the characteristics of Brazilian. There is one
difference between the two which may be important and have something to do
with possible tonal variation. Although we always prefer and seek perfectly
quartered wood for building guitars it is possible to use quite wild-grained
slab-cut Brazilian and have a durable, great sounding guitar. This is not
possible with East Indian because on the slab cut it becomes very unstable.
Perhaps Brazilian has some sort of enhanced structural integrity which
allows for this.
For me, the fragrance of Brazilian is unmatched. I have a Martin guitar from
the mid-19th century which still exudes that delightful perfume.
Fretfully Yours,
><{{{{*> Roger Thurman <*}}}}><
Thurman Guitar & Violin Repair"
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:_LAQ7.215771$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gary Rodriguez
named after them:
Jacaranda Drive
Jacaranda Country Club
Jacaranda subdivision.
And nobody calls it rosewood, nor would they want to change the name.
Rosewood is probably a name used to describe trees that people don't have in
their local.
Did you ever see a jacaranda tree in bloom in the
spring? They are as beautiful as the guitars they are made from. Take at
look at Sherry-Brener 2A back and side at:
http://www.guitarramagazine.com/ramirez_jacaranda/ramirez_jacaranda.asp
I've got a great photo of a jacaranda tree in bloom. I'm going to find it
and put a link up to it as soon as I get back from my Caribbean cruise.
gary
"ray kelly" <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DjCQ7.36319$f75.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Larry Deack
> For me, the fragrance of Brazilian is unmatched. I have a Martin guitar
from
> the mid-19th century which still exudes that delightful perfume.
>
> Fretfully Yours,
>
> ><{{{{*> Roger Thurman <*}}}}><
> Thurman Guitar & Violin Repair"
Hey! Roger posts here sometimes also :-) I do agree with him on the smell.
That is one thing that I really enjoy about working wood, that great smell.
William D Clinger
> (filigree branching effect in wintertime), Tuliptree, Black Walnut,
> Sycamore, and Swamp White Oak. ...long time 'til spring, eh, Will :-)))).
Thanks, Alison. Winter doesn't seem so bad yet. We've just
had our first real snowfall of the season. My back yard is
a state forest. I'm going to spend half the day looking out
at the snow-covered trees while playing guitar.
The other half I'll probably waste.
Will
Steven Bornfeld
Steve
Rogluthier
> Hey! Roger posts here sometimes also :-) I do agree with him on the smell.
>That is one thing that I really enjoy about working wood, that great smell.
Larry, Ray:
My father was a professor of theatre so I grew up with the smells of freshly
painted scenery flats and the stinky hide glue which attached the canvas to
pine frames. Add to that the stage machinery, the smell of the myriad hemp
ropes that operated the fly system, the sawdust in the scene shop, and I think
I was hooked on woodworking and craft from my early days. (No, it didn't try
and smoke those hemp ropes!)
Roger Thurman
Thurman Guitar & Violin Repair, Inc.
900 Franklin Ave.
Kent, OH 44240
330-673-4054
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/Rogluthier/
25 years in repair, making and sales.
Martin - Fender Warranty Repair
Visa/MC Shipment on approval
Ray Kelly
Jacaranda tree a Rosewood tree, (since there are a number of types of
rosewood trees), but the wood from a Jacaranda tree is still, what we call
in America, rosewood.
"Gary Rodriguez" <midi-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:cDKQ7.216251$3d2.9...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
JH
> The Bruce Banister site shows a 1972 Ramirez without a Segovia Model label.
> This guitar is definitely different in appearance from the Segovia Model.
> This proves that there were two different models at the time and that
> Segovia Models were not relabled Ramirez guitars. The Segovia Model is the
> one Segovia played.
>
> Gary
>
especially thirty year old ones, look the same... Segovia had his
first 1a for two or three years before the "Segovia model" appeared in
the US, and if there had been a separate Segovia model which Segovia
played, why was that model not sold from the Ramirez establishment, or
by the UK importers, for example?
John Huff
Richard Jernigan
<snip>
> Anyways, I won't be challenging for long. Sunday I am going on a Caribbean
> cruise for a week. The only things I will be questioning are the yard-long
> tequillas and Cuban Cohiba cigars at Sr. Frogs in cozumel, Mexico.
> Best, gary
I haven't been to Sr. Frog's in quite a while, but the Cuban Cohibas I've
bought in the last couple of years in Manila and in Rio de Janeiro have been
poorly made. They're also much stronger than the Dominican ones, but this is
typical of Cuban vs. Dominican. Maybe they're different models from Sr.
Frog's? :)
RNJ
--
Posted from cache.midpac.net [64.75.133.5]
Steve Schenkel
gas...@rice.edu (Terry Gaschen) wrote:
> That's totally wrong. The 1As were built with Brazilian or indian Rosewood
> and the 2As were 1As which had flaws in the finish or the wood. They were
> what is called factory "seconds" Most of them were as good as the "firsts"
> (1As). I didn't start seeing 2As until 1973. I'm not sure how long Jim
> Sherry had been importing them by that time but I spent an entire Sunday
> afternoon in his shop trying out about thirty of them before I took two
> back home to Texas. It was from Jim Sherry that I learned the difference
> between the two models. There was a huge difference in the wholesale price
> of the two models at that time. It was a real incentive top go for the 2A.
Wow! It was my original posting several weeks ago that started this
thread. Apparently some well intentioned list members felt that I was
unaware of what sort of guitar I played for 30 years. While indeed there
have been many sources of information and misinformation about various
Ramirez designations, the guitar in question is made of Brazilian
Rosewood. It has neither a blue nor a red label.
When I bought the guitar from Mr. Sherry in 1970 he was extremely
helpful, and in fact tried to talk me into a less expensive model, since
I was a student at that time. I insisted on buying the "top of the line"
that he had available. That amazing instrument has served me well for 3
decades.
I seldom play it any more, and that is why I decided to sell it. Why I
received no bids is a mystery to me, but the guitar was not
misidentified, and Mr. Sherry did not trick me 30 years ago.
Best wishes to all of you for a great holiday season.
Steve Schenkel
Kevin & Debbie Hall
instance the stuff from Madras tends to be more red in colour, and in my
experience somewhat more brittle. Years ago it used to be sold a little
more cheaply than that harvested in Keralla or Mysore. Those tend to be
more on the purple side, darker and somewhat denser.
Braz. usually seems to have more of a dark milk chocolate hue to it, and
often a bit of orange. The very best, old Braz. is very straight grained
and plain in appearance. Of course everyone is attracted to the spectacular
stuff with the swirls of colour in it, but for my money the best sound
comes from the dead straight-grained, perfectly quartered wood that is
plain as a mud fence in appearance.
As far as wood smells go, I like the sharp, almost peppery smell of
Alaskan cypress, also known as Nootka cypress or western yellow cedar. It
has been used to great effect by builders of flamenco guitars as back and
sides material, and now is starting to be seen as tops. The smell is very
distinctive, and it lingers in the instrument for years.
KH
Timberline Guitars
Canada.
ray kelly <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DjCQ7.36319$f75.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Khai
> Wow! It was my original posting several weeks ago that started this
> thread. Apparently some well intentioned list members felt that I was
> unaware of what sort of guitar I played for 30 years. While indeed there
> have been many sources of information and misinformation about various
> Ramirez designations, the guitar in question is made of Brazilian
> Rosewood. It has neither a blue nor a red label.
>
What do you mean "it has neither a blue nor a red label?" I had
another look and it was a BLUE label. What people refer to as a blue
label is the blue rectangle (blue line) over the upper label.
Here is the link again:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1488141214
Khai
Ray Kelly
Jeremy Locke asked:
<<Perhaps you could elaborate as to WHY you believe Brazilian has more
potential.>>
I realize this is almost a week old now, but I wanted to look some stuff up,
and then decided to make a few measurements when some of the stuff I tried
to
look up was in publications I'd lent out, and then... Sigh.
The short answer is that BRW has, on average, a lower damping factor than
Indian, which tends to give a bit more sustain to the tone and helps bring
out the high frequencies a little better. Nylon strings have higher
intrinsic
losses than steel strings, which gives them less energy in the high
frequencies and shorter sustain, so using BRW on a classical guitar makes a
lot of sense.
I looked up Daniel Haines' article on wood in the Catgut Acoustical Society
'Journal' (Vol 4, No.2 , Series II, Nov. 2000, pp 20-32: a revision of an
earlier article in the same Journal). He only had two samples of Indian
rosewood, and one of Brazilian, so I dug out some old back offcuts and made
up three of each to test for low-frequency damping along the grain. He must
have gotten better wood than I did: his samples had lower damping than mine,
but they were in the same proportion: Brazilian rosewood absorbs about 35%
less energy in vibration than Indian. This is often expressed as a
'Q-value',
a dimensionless number that gives the proportion of energy that is 'wasted'
per cycle of vibration. Brazilian seems to have Q-values around 170 (mine
averaged 167, Haines' sample was about 185), and Indian closer to 130 (mine
122, Haines 136). This means that, in the BRW sample that Haines tested,
1/185th of the energy of vibration was 'lost' for every complete cycle of
vibration. Since high frequencies complete more cycles of vibration per
second, they tend to die out faster in damped systems. Most woods have
higher
damping factors (lower Qs) at high frequencies than at low, and Haines'
measurements bear this out for the rosewoods, so the loss is even faster at
high frequencies. We can hear this in tapping the wood, of course; BRW tends
to 'ring' longer and more clearly than Indian.
I made up a little monochord to test out nylon vs. steel strings. I won't
bore you with the gory details, but I used a piece of Osage Orange wood for
the body, and a piezo element in the bridge to pick up the string
vibrations.
I used the old trick of 'plucking' the strings by pulling them up with a
piece of fine cooper magnet wire until the wire broke, which it tends to do
at the same load every time. You can get a nice uniform 'pluck' in the same
place and the same direction each time. One use for old electric guitar
pickups! Anyway, the wave forms were recorded on my computer, and analyzed.
In one test they started out with about the same energy, but after 1/2
second
the nylon string only had .3% of the energy it had to start with. The steel
string did better; after 1/2 second it still had 2.4% of it's original
endowment.
The nylon string seems to start out with less energy in the high frequencies
to begin with. It's likely that the stiffness of the string itself (because
it was .04" dia., instead of the steel string's .016" dia.) doesn't allow it
to bend as easily to form the shorter 'loops' required for high frequency
partials.
There are two loss mechanisms that also disadvantage nylon strings; internal
losses and air losses. Nylon has a higher internal damping factor than
steel,
just as Indian rosewood has higher damping than Brazilian. The results are
similar; the nylon string vibration dies out quicker, and most especially at
higher frequencies. If you look at successive segments of the wave form, and
analyze them for frequency content, each later segment has less energy in
the
higher partials than the one before it. This 'pruning' of the upper partials
proceeds particularly fast in nylon strings.
Some of that loss probably has to do with fluid losses. A string is too
small
to compress air very well and make a sound; that's why we hook strings to
soundboards. It still has to move air aside in order to vibrate, though, and
in doing so it creates a lot of turbulence. My .04" nylon string has to move
more air than a .016" steel string, so it loses energy faster. In this
particular test, where the other losses were kept as low as possible, the
viscous drag could have been the main loss mechanism. On a guitar it is
probably still a major one.
When I did an experiment in wood substitution on classical guitars (CAS
Journal, Vol.3, No.5, Series II, May, 1988, pp24-28) I noted that the treble
response of a guitar with a BRW back was 'better' than that of a similar
guitar with an oak back, and felt that the difference could be accounted
for,
at least in part, by the lower damping of the BRW. Subsequent (unpublished)
measurements I've made have convinced me more firmly that low damping and a
'bright' tone go together. Of course, it's possible to make a 'bad' and even
'dull' guitar with a Brazilian rosewood back, it's just harder to do!
So that's it in brief. When used properly Brazilian rosewood doesn't 'eat'
as
much of the tone as Indian, so it has more potential to give a 'good' sound.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
"ray kelly" <kel...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:DjCQ7.36319$f75.1...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
Steve Schenkel
> What do you mean "it has neither a blue nor a red label?" I had
> another look and it was a BLUE label. What people refer to as a blue
> label is the blue rectangle (blue line) over the upper label.
>
> Here is the link again:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1488141214
>
> Khai
You are correct sir. Thanks for pointing this out.
Steve