Five pieces from the renaissance?
Carlos Barrientos
Anybody remember the names of these in a collection from back in the
day?
--
Carlos Barrientos
"mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
Phone: (229)-395-1893
Web Site http://www.carmapro.com
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/193/carlos_barrientos.html
I encourage you to read these:
http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
John W. Blossick
>From: Carlos Barrientos
Wrote:
>
>Five pieces from the renaissance?
>
>Anybody remember the names of these in a collection from back in the
>day?
>
I have Six Lute Pieces of the Renaissance edited by Albert Valdes Blain. Is
that close enough? If it is, I can give you the names.
JohnB
Michael Davis
The Blain pieces, if my memory serves me, are those
collected/transcribed by Oscar Chillesotti (why I was plinking through
them just last night). There's a Branle in there, but I can't remember
the individual names of the others.
John W. Blossick
>From: ycle...@cs.com (Michael Davis)
>Date: 9/17/02 7:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id:
wrote:
>
>The Blain pieces, if my memory serves me, are those
>collected/transcribed by Oscar Chillesotti (why I was plinking through
>them just last night). There's a Branle in there, but I can't remember
>the individual names of the others.
Yes..You're correct..Chillesotti transcribed the lute pieces..Edited and
fingered by Blain..I didn't see a Branle in there though.
JohnB
Antuco
These pieces are published by Columbia Music ( Washington DC)
The title is :
Heritage Series
SIX LUTE PIECES of the RENAISSANCE
CO-142
Antuco
"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D86AE13...@sprintmail.com...
Antuco
1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro.
2. Bianco Fiore
3. Danza
5. Se io m'accorgo
6. Salarello
"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D86AE13...@sprintmail.com...
Antuco
1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro.
2. Bianco Fiore
3. Danza
4. Gagliarda
5. Se io m'accorgo
6. Saltarello
It has been recorded by many guitarist, but my favorite is the Segovia
recording an a Decca record which he did around 1960 (circa)
It is called The Art of Andres Segovia. I don't know if it has been
converted to a CD.
According to the notes on the record Oscar Chilesotti.(1848-1916) was the
historiographer that made the transcriptions. Several of these pieces have
been attributed to Galileo, the Italian astronomer
Respigly (sp) on his ancient Airs for orchestra used several of these
pieces.
Antuco
"Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:3D86AE13...@sprintmail.com...
Lutester
wrote:
>They are:
>
> 1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro.
> 2. Bianco Fiore
> 3. Danza
> 4. Gagliarda
> 5. Se io m'accorgo
> 6. Saltarello
>
>It has been recorded by many guitarist, but my favorite is the Segovia
>recording an a Decca record which he did around 1960 (circa)
>
>It is called The Art of Andres Segovia. I don't know if it has been
>converted to a CD.
>
>According to the notes on the record Oscar Chilesotti.(1848-1916) was the
>historiographer that made the transcriptions. Several of these pieces have
>been attributed to Galileo, the Italian astronomer
>
I think you mean Vincenzo Galilei( 1525-1591), his father and a noted
lute player of the times. He also explored the relationships between
string length, density and tension to pitch.
Robert
Matanya Ophee
It is not beyond the possible that Antuco is actually reporting
correctly the contents of the liner notes to the Segovia record where
the confusion between father and son was already made. Can anybody
clarify this?
Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com
Lutester
wrote:
>It is not beyond the possible that Antuco is actually reporting
>correctly the contents of the liner notes to the Segovia record where
>the confusion between father and son was already made. Can anybody
>clarify this?
>
I will resist the temptation to vent over folks that get their
musicology from the back of LP liner notes.
Robert
Matanya Ophee
I hear you. Since I do not know who is Antuco, I'd like to extend to
him the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps he is one of those innocents who
believe anything printed, particularly when it is attached to a
Segovia CD. The matter assumes a different nature when professional
performers repeat this kind of nonsense on stage. The
Leginani-Paganini story, for example. The earliest I could trace the
story was to liner notes on a Bream record by one Judith Hudson. Not
to be found in _any_ of the vast literature on Paganini.
roger
>On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:55:48 -0400, "Antuco" <ant...@bellsouth.net>
>wrote:
<delete>
>
>>According to the notes on the record Oscar Chilesotti.(1848-1916) was the
>>historiographer that made the transcriptions. Several of these pieces have
>>been attributed to Galileo, the Italian astronomer
None are actually by any Galilei. And many are German, not Italian.
Chilesotti often changed the titles from German (Tanz) to Italian
(Danza).
>>
>I think you mean Vincenzo Galilei( 1525-1591), his father and a noted
>lute player of the times. He also explored the relationships between
>string length, density and tension to pitch.
>
Yes, his sons were watching as Vincenzo dangled his raw lute strings
with various weights from the Leaning Tower of Pisa. And thus the
future astronomer Galileo Galieli is said to have discovered the
principle of the pendulum.
The other son, Michaelangelo Galilei, became one of the foremost
lutenists of his day. While court lutenist in Muinich, he published a
rather avant-garde book of lute music. But not so outlandish that the
Inquisition got after _him_.
Poor Galileo Galilei, wasn't he on the Index until the 20th century?
By the way, you out in Orange County should check out the one-man
Galilei Galileo show put on by Mark Thompsons, a cantor in a synagogue
in Santa Ana. It must be a terrific show. He plays music Galilei
would have known on his lute, sometimes accompanying himself in songs,
including that Canto from Orlando Furioso, edited by Chilesotti.
Surely the most beautiful song of the Renaissance. (I helped Mark find
it.<g>)
The father Vincenzo is usually remembered for being the theorist in
Count Bardi's Florentine Camerata which "invented" opera, as they were
experimenting to re-discoveer ancient Greek drama. But he was a
formidible composer of lute music.
But Chilesotti did not publish much of it, and none of the pieces in
the Blean Rip_Off edition are by V. Galilei, or any other Galilei.
Those attriubutions are simply used to market the music. Why play a
piece by anonymous, when you can credit it to the father of the
astronomer.
>Robert
Roger, and out, Robert.
Richard Spross
Here is your answer, and I quote from "Decca DL 9795 band 1. Six Pieces For
Lute. ( From a 16th Century Codex, transcribed from the tablature by Oscar
Chilesotti ) Several of these charming pieces have been attributed to Gallileo,
the Italian astronomer, though which of them is not known. They transcribed by
the well-known Italian music historiographer, Oscar Chillesotti (1848-1916 ).
Andres Segovia plays his own guitar versions of these works. "
Richard Spross
Antuco
Your wrong ! You do know me . We have talked both on the phone and in person
on several occasions.
I think the liner notes come from Vladimir Bobri. We all know that he was
a great fan and friend of Segovia and the founder of the NY classical guitar
society.
No, I don't get my musicology from liner notes as you put it. I was simply
passing some information that I read years ago. I'm surprise that you are
not
putting me down for my miss spelled words. The name is Ottorino Respighi
(1878-1936)
Antuco
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:9u7fou4k2lspt07g8...@4ax.com...
Richard Spross
Awh schucks! Hands stuck in blue jeans, thumbs sticking out and our heads
hanging down in dismay. We thought we were so close to the Renaissance and the
hand of a famous person far away and long neglected. Unreachable expect through
the music he penned. Now it is shown. It was all imagination. Anon is anon.
just like most of us, one heart quietly beating and writing music for himself /
herself and friends never to be remembered as a personality, but always loved
through the legacy of music.
richard spross
Matanya Ophee
>Matanya:
>
>Your wrong ! You do know me . We have talked both on the phone and in person
>on several occasions.
That may be so, but I still have no idea who this screen name belongs
to. If you care to reveal your identity, publicly or privately, I'll
have a better handle on how to assess your posts.
>I think the liner notes come from Vladimir Bobri.
May be. But according to Segovia discographies, the liner notes were
not signed. I don't have this particular LP on hand
>No, I don't get my musicology from liner notes as you put it. I was simply
>passing some information that I read years ago.
In other words, you don't really have this LP in front of you, and you
cannot corroborate that the confusion between Vincenzo and Galileo was
not made by you but that you quoted this from memory?
> I'm surprise that you are
>not
>putting me down for my miss spelled words. The name is Ottorino Respighi
>(1878-1936)
Not my yob. I do not belong to the spelling police.
Matanya Ophee
>Here is your answer, and I quote from "Decca DL 9795 band 1. Six Pieces For
>Lute. ( From a 16th Century Codex, transcribed from the tablature by Oscar
>Chilesotti ) Several of these charming pieces have been attributed to Gallileo,
>the Italian astronomer, though which of them is not known. They transcribed by
>the well-known Italian music historiographer, Oscar Chillesotti (1848-1916 ).
>Andres Segovia plays his own guitar versions of these works. "
Thank you Richard. You are off the hook now, Antuco, whoever you are.
Matanya Ophee
>None are actually by any Galilei. And many are German, not Italian.
>Chilesotti often changed the titles from German (Tanz) to Italian
>(Danza).
So you are saying Arthur, that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
Italian?
And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz), No. 75
(Joseph, lieber meine Joseph) and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
PGS
s.
Richard Spross wrote:
> Awh schucks! Hands stuck in blue jeans, thumbs sticking out and our heads
> hanging down in dismay. We thought we were so close to the Renaissance and the
> hand of a famous person far away and long neglected. Unreachable expect through
> the music he penned. Now it is shown. It was all imagination. Anon is anon.
> just like most of us, one heart quietly beating and writing music for himself /
> herself and friends never to be remembered as a personality, but always loved
> through the legacy of music.
>
> richard spross
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"To live is so startling, it leaves but little room
for other occupations."
~Emily Dickinson
Letters of Emily Dickinson, vol. 2 (1894)
Richard Spross
Here is your answer, and I quote from "Decca DL 9795 band 1. Six Pieces For
Lute. ( From a 16th Century Codex, transcribed from the tablature by Oscar
Chilesotti ) Several of these charming pieces have been attributed to Gallileo,
the Italian astronomer, though which of them is not known. They transcribed by
the well-known Italian music historiographer, Oscar Chillesotti (1848-1916 ).
Andres Segovia plays his own guitar versions of these works. "Richard Spross
Apologies to one and all.
I thought to inform about who wrote the liner notes and then forgot.
Matanya is correct, there is no mention who the author might be.
This was one of my favorite albums by the Maestro if not my favorite.
I leant it to a student oh about 28 years ago to see it waltz off.
It took me about 15 years before I spied a used copy and grabbed it.
Then more recently was able to come up with a mint condition album with a plastic sleeve for the jacket.
Primo!!!
Regards,
Richard Spross
arthur ness
<rcsp...@pacbell.net> wrote:
<<snip>>
>
>Awh schucks! Hands stuck in blue jeans, thumbs sticking out and our heads
>hanging down in dismay. We thought we were so close to the Renaissance and the
>hand of a famous person far away and long neglected. Unreachable expect through
>the music he penned. Now it is shown. It was all imagination. Anon is anon.
>just like most of us, one heart quietly beating and writing music for himself /
>herself and friends never to be remembered as a personality, but always loved
>through the legacy of music.
>
>richard spross
>
Dear Richard,
>
There are literally tons of luite pieces by Vincenzo Galilei. It is
just that the pieces under discussion are not his. The famous
Italiana with the D-A-d ostinato is really by an anonymous German or
perhaps Dutch lutenist. It is a bagpipes piece, and the ostinato
represents the drones. Dowland's King of Denmark (aka Battel)
Galliard also begins with the sounds of bagpipes, and open strings
again represent the drones.
Vincenzo Galilei left three published books of lute music, including a
treatise on playing the instrument. There are also some huge
manuscrits containing his music. He claimed to have made several
thousand variations on the passamezzo antico. I regret to say, that I
find his music uninteresting for the most part. And that might be
shared by others, and account for the dearth of music by him in modern
editions.
The treatise has been publised in an English translation by Carol
MacClintock and publ. by the prestigeous American Instutute of
Musicology.
Galileo Ga;lilei played the lute, I believe, but no music by him is
known. His brother Miachelangelo left that famous book of music. It
is available in a transcription for guitar by Ruggiero Chiesa. I do
not know if the five pieces transcribed by Almeida are genuine works
by Vincenzo or not.
AJN.
Antuco
I am sure that you will be at the GFA in Miami. I promise you that I will
come up to and Introduce myself to you I live in Miami and anything I can
do to make your stay while in Miami more enjoyable let me know.
Antuco is short for Antonio. My last name stands for Maple in Spanish.
Figure it out.
Antuco
"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message
news:j7jfouoqiqkqoo2vh...@4ax.com...
Lutester
ness) wrote:
>His brother Miachelangelo left that famous book of music. It
>is available in a transcription for guitar by Ruggiero Chiesa. I do
>not know if the five pieces transcribed by Almeida are genuine works
>by Vincenzo or not.
>
>AJN.
The transcription cite is:
Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto / Michelangelo Galilei ;
trascrizione in notazione moderna di Ruggero Chiesa. -- Milano :
Edizioni Suvini Zerboni, <1998>, c1977.
The facsimile cite is:
Galilei, Michelangelo: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto;
introduction de Claude Chauvel. Genève : Minkoff Reprints, 1988
I am only familiar with the Minkoff volume. The music is for ten
course lute (ren tuning) so it should be just what you ten strings
chaps would like as a source of some good music.
It is not easy stuff at all, but well worth a look.
Robert
David Raleigh Arnold
> The names of these pieces are:
>
> 1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro. 2. Bianco
> Fiore
> 3. Danza
> 5. Se io m'accorgo
> 6. Salarello
Saltarello by Vincenzo Galilei. (The astronomer's dad)
> "Carlos Barrientos" <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3D86AE13...@sprintmail.com...
>> Five pieces from the renaissance?
>>
>> Anybody remember the names of these in a collection from back in the
>> day?
>>
>> --
>> Carlos Barrientos
>> "mailto:ca...@sprintmail.com"
>> Phone: (229)-395-1893
>>
>> Web Site http://www.carmapro.com
>> http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/193/carlos_barrientos.html
>>
>> I encourage you to read these:
>> http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/banned-books.html
>>
>>
--
------------------------------------------------------------
Information is not knowledge. Belief is not truth.
Indoctrination is not teaching. Tradition is not evidence.
David Raleigh Arnold dra@ or http://www.openguitar.com
Matanya Ophee
>Antuco is short for Antonio. My last name stands for Maple in Spanish.
>Figure it out.
Aha! But please forgive an old man for not remembering phone
conversations with you. I'll see you in Miami, for sure!
Robert Crim
wrote:
>roge...@compuserve.com (roger) wrote:
>
>>None are actually by any Galilei. And many are German, not Italian.
>>Chilesotti often changed the titles from German (Tanz) to Italian
>>(Danza).
>
>So you are saying Arthur, that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>Italian?
>
>And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
>such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz), No. 75
>(Joseph, lieber meine Joseph) and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>
I just went down into the music cave where I keep all the old goodies
and dug out the Forni edition of the little red Chilesotti book..
"Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del Cinquencento."
If the question is whether or not the original manuscript is German or
Italian or whatever, I an only note that the two example pages of
original tablature are in Italian notation. That almost surely means
(to me) that the scribe was Italian.
Trust me, if the manuscript was in German tab, it would probably never
have been transcribed. After all, how many works of Sixtus Kargel
have you seen in the Mel Bay catalog lately?
Just my $0.02 worth.
Robert
roger
Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
>
>So you are saying <snip> that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>Italian?
Yes. Danza wasn't even a term used in Italian in the Renaissance.
Back then the generic Italian name for dance was "Ballo," or
"Baletto." I have already explained Chilesotti's titles on the Lute
List and here on RMCG. Weren't you paying attention?
The lute scholar and Wagner intimate Wilhelm Tappert (died about 1906)
examined the Codice Lauten-Buch when it was first offered for sale
around 1886 by a music antiquarian in Munich (Rosenthal), and again
when it was sent on consignment to the famed music antiquarian Leo
Liepmannssohn in Berlin.
Tappert was hoping that the Royal Library in Berlin would purchase the
manuscript which had been compiled by a student from a famous family
of merchants in Nuremberg. Chilesotti subsequently purchased it, and
made his famous transcription, _Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del
Cinquecento._
The original manuscript was sold after his death, and it is now in a
private library in northern Italy. The owner will not permit anyone
to examine it.
Tappert himself wrote the description of the manuscript that
Liepmannssohn published in his catalogue. In fact, because of
Tappert's expertise, Liepmannssohn frequently consulted with him when
he had lute materials to offer for sale.
In preparing the catalogue description Tappert made a list of the
contents, copied some of the dirty jokes and witty sayings in German
and Latin that were scribbled in the margins, and transcribed a few of
the pieces that interested him. These notes are presently among the
Tappert Papers at the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in (East) Berlin,
where I consulted them. Tappert was also a noted music journalist, and
wrote several famous books on his friend Richard Wagner. Tappert was
working on what would have been a massive history of lute music. Only
a small portion of it was completed.
So we have the orginal titles and can tell which ones Chilesotti
changed. The titles Danza all appear as "Tanntz" in the manusciprt.
>
>And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
>such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz),
He calls No. 41 "Danza Polacca" whereas the original title is
"Hungarischer Tanntz." So he changed the title and the nationality of
that famous, and well known Hungarian dance.
>No. 75 (Joseph, lieber meine Joseph)
Chilesotti probably recognized the famous German Christmas carol and
wished to preserve its title. After all the title of his published
transcription is "From a Codex Lauten-Buch of the 16th Century."
>and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
As well one might. It reads nonsense "I take my stomach
Bavarianizing." The proper title of this famous anonymous piece is
"Ich gieng ein mal spazieren," "Once upon a time I went out for a
stroll" ("and what did I see?" ...)
I that old German script, S's sometimes look like B's.
>
The "sic." may indeed be that of a B&H editor. Chilesotti butchered
the titles because he had difficulty reading the old German script
used in the manuscript.
Tappert was able to read many of the titles that Chilesotti called
"Titolo indecifrable" and include "Huner G'schrei," "Ich ways mier ein
maglin hüpbsch," "Teutscher Tanntz," etc. Chilesotti also did not
publish about 20 pieces in the manuscript. So his Codice Lauten-Buch
is not a complete transcription of the original manuscript, most of
which is for six-course lute, incidentally. Since he used E tuning,
it has been a very popular book among guitarists. Lutenists now use
the excellent re-intabulation into French tablature by Richard Hoban
(Lyre Press in <where's TCU in Texas?>)
Roger
Stephan Olbertz
Robert Crim schrieb:
> If the question is whether or not the original manuscript is German or
> Italian or whatever, I an only note that the two example pages of
> original tablature are in Italian notation. That almost surely means
> (to me) that the scribe was Italian.
No, this means that the scribe was capable of Italian tablature ;-)
Italian tab was in use in South Germany (as it was in Spain and
elsewhere). Phillipp Hainhofer's lute books are written like this, I
think, and he just studied in Italy towards the end of the 16th century.
Regards,
Stephan
Stephan Olbertz
Arthur schrieb:
>>and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>
>
> As well one might. It reads nonsense "I take my stomach
> Bavarianizing." The proper title of this famous anonymous piece is
> "Ich gieng ein mal spazieren," "Once upon a time I went out for a
> stroll" ("and what did I see?" ...)
>
> I that old German script, S's sometimes look like B's.
Hm, it could well mean "Ich ging _einmal gen_ Bayern", which is "I once
travelled to Bavaria".
Stephan
Hainhofer
patrician ("city father"). His lute books contain some 250 pieces,
all written in Italian lute tablature, except for one piece each in
the German and French tablature included to illustrate those systems.
I forgot about Italian tablature also being used in Sopain. The most
famous Spanish lute book by Luis Milan is in Neapolitan tablature,
sometimes these days called Spanish tablature. The designation
"Neapolitan" is 16th-century usage.
AJN
Richard Spross
Thank you for the information on V. Galileo. If I understand correctly, the Six
pieces are all anononymus?
Regards,
Richard Spross
Matanya Ophee
>>So you are saying Arthur, that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>>Italian?
>>
>>And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
>>such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz), No. 75
>>(Joseph, lieber meine Joseph) and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>>
>I just went down into the music cave where I keep all the old goodies
>and dug out the Forni edition of the little red Chilesotti book..
>"Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del Cinquencento."
>
>If the question is whether or not the original manuscript is German or
>Italian or whatever, I an only note that the two example pages of
>original tablature are in Italian notation. That almost surely means
>(to me) that the scribe was Italian.
Excellent point, but I am sure Arthur will be able to quote many
German manuscripts using Italian tablature The issue is not the
nationality of the scribe, or the owner of the manuscript, but whether
Chilesotti changed some of the German titles. Arthur may be right, but
he has no way of knowing that exception by speculation and deduction.
>Trust me, if the manuscript was in German tab, it would probably never
>have been transcribed.
Well, there is another book by Chilesotti published a year later. An
anthology titled, properly this time, in German as Lautenspieler Des
XVI Jahrhunderts with an Italian translation of the title in square
brackets. It begins with a series of pieces by Hans Newsidler with a
beautiful example of German tablature. It also comes with a red cover
from Forni, and it is still in print. I have a pristine copy of the
original edition of this one too.
Matanya Ophee
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:32:14 GMT,
>
>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
>>
>>So you are saying <snip> that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>>Italian?
>
>Yes. Danza wasn't even a term used in Italian in the Renaissance.
>Back then the generic Italian name for dance was "Ballo," or
>"Baletto." I have already explained Chilesotti's titles on the Lute
>List and here on RMCG. Weren't you paying attention?
Probably not, but that's OK, Roger and Out, I can always count on you
to explain it again. It will be nice if all this wonderful information
was published someplace, so it can be referred to, but right now, all
of this is useless as a scholarly reference. If I wanted to quote it
someplace, how do I go about it? maybe something like:
Posted on RMCG on September 18 2002 by Roger de la Latrine, aka
Hainhhofer, aka Hector, aka Johnny E. Dove, aka ajn, aka AN Boston,
aka Arthur J. Ness?
Excuse me, but this is not aka at all. It is kaka.
>The lute scholar and Wagner intimate Wilhelm Tappert (died about 1906)
>examined the Codice Lauten-Buch when it was first offered for sale
>around 1886 by a music antiquarian in Munich (Rosenthal), and again
>when it was sent on consignment to the famed music antiquarian Leo
>Liepmannssohn in Berlin.
>
>Tappert was hoping that the Royal Library in Berlin would purchase the
>manuscript which had been compiled by a student from a famous family
>of merchants in Nuremberg. Chilesotti subsequently purchased it, and
>made his famous transcription, _Da un Codice Lauten-Buch del
>Cinquecento._
>
>The original manuscript was sold after his death, and it is now in a
>private library in northern Italy. The owner will not permit anyone
>to examine it.
>
>Tappert himself wrote the description of the manuscript that
>Liepmannssohn published in his catalogue. In fact, because of
>Tappert's expertise, Liepmannssohn frequently consulted with him when
>he had lute materials to offer for sale.
>
>In preparing the catalogue description Tappert made a list of the
>contents, copied some of the dirty jokes and witty sayings in German
>and Latin that were scribbled in the margins, and transcribed a few of
>the pieces that interested him. These notes are presently among the
>Tappert Papers at the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in (East) Berlin,
Call number please? I just happen to have a close friend in Berlin who
will be delighted to obtain copies for me.
[snip]
>>and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>
>As well one might. It reads nonsense "I take my stomach
>Bavarianizing." The proper title of this famous anonymous piece is
>"Ich gieng ein mal spazieren," "Once upon a time I went out for a
>stroll" ("and what did I see?" ...)
>
>I that old German script, S's sometimes look like B's.
>>
>The "sic." may indeed be that of a B&H editor.
Thank you. Now do tell me: do you really know that this is the _only_
item by the B&H editor and not by Chilesotti?
And if the editor changed one item, how do you know that it was the
Chilesotti who was responsible for all the changes and NOT the editor?
>Chilesotti butchered
>the titles because he had difficulty reading the old German script
>used in the manuscript.
>
>Tappert was able to read many of the titles that Chilesotti called
>"Titolo indecifrable" and include "Huner G'schrei," "Ich ways mier ein
>maglin hüpbsch," "Teutscher Tanntz," etc. Chilesotti also did not
>publish about 20 pieces in the manuscript. So his Codice Lauten-Buch
>is not a complete transcription of the original manuscript,
He never claimed he did and in his preface he says precisely that he
did not. And the title clearly says that: DA un Codice, from a
Manuscript.
>most of
>which is for six-course lute, incidentally.
Some of it does not require the seventh course, but most it of does.
> Since he used E tuning,
>it has been a very popular book among guitarists.
He did not use the E tuning. He specifically said that the book was
intended to be played on a renaissance seven-course lute in normal
renaissance tuning and he even gave the tuning in detail. He used the
transposition interval of a major sixth, but even though the music
appears _as if_ it was written for guitar, much of it is not playable
on a normal six string guitar without scordatura. What was popular
among guitarists at the time was not this book at all, but the
selected arrangements for guitar made by Heinrich Scherrer and
published in 1905 by the same publisher.
See my article on the History of Transcirptions of Lute Tablatures for
more details:
http://www.orphee.com/trans/trans.html
Carlos Barrientos
THANX!!!
That's what I'm talking about... TONS of data and info, ...
Now for the question that's likely to get the most heat...
Which edition should I buy, and why?
I'd love to hear from someone who has performed these pieces if
possible...
Richard Spross
The standard common ordinary version which most of us in our fifties
grew up using and which I believe is the version Segovia played on said
album, is published by Columbia Music, Washington D. C. now edited by
Alan Neidle. Should be listed under Six Lute Pieces of the Renaissance
and available through any of the usual on-line sources, GSP, and others
back East.
Also they are scattered through the Christopher Parkening Method Vol.2
(presumably his arrangements.) His version adds some nice touches.
And I begin my current recital program with them. Familiarity is good to
help settle an audience down.. I've played and taught them for years as
have hundreds of others.
So there you go unless you want to get more exotic.
Richard Spross
arthur ness
Italian tablature was widely used in Bavaria and also in southern
France in the 16th century. And near universally in Spain, except for
the book by Luis Milan which is in Neapolitan or Spanish tablature.
(All of the lute books that Jacques Moderne published at Lyons are in
Italian tablature.) That is a mistake many people make when they make
assumptions about provenance based solely on the type of tablature
notation.
Unfortunately that terminology of German, Italian French, Polish,
Neapolitan and Spanish systems of lute tablatures has been around for
centuries, and it's too late to change it now even if one wanted to.
One of the very earliest Italian manuscripts (ca. 1490), now in
Perugia, is written in what we call French tablature. In fact
Attaingnant's book of tablature, the first published in France, was
edited by an Italian lutenist, suggesting that perhaps he came from a
part of Italy where what we now call "French" tablature was used.
Every year the master German lutenist Melchior Newsidler (son, not
brother of the better known Hans Newsidler) sent the Duke of Bavaria
some of his lute pieces as a New Year's present. They ALL survive in
what was formerly the duchal library (now the Bavarian State Library
in Munich) and are written in Italian tablature.
he Codice Lauten-Buch is German, no question about that. There are
jokes jotted in the margins in German. And I know that it was first
offered for sale from a Bavarian book dealer in the 1880s. The
compiler's name was Hierle, who was a member of a Nuremberg family of
famous merchants.
Very little lute music from Germany found its way south into Italy.
The commerce in lute music went in the other direction, where many,
many pieces in German lute books are from Italy.
And besides, how many pieces by Sixtus Kargel does anyone want?<g> But
Hans Newsidler gets published in guitar editions very frequently, and
his books use German tablature. He was born in Pressburg, now
Bratislava in Hungary, where German tablature was common.
Arthur.
On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:12:59 GMT, Robert Crim
<frit...@earthlink.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
Lutester
ness) wrote:
>Unfortunately that terminology of German, Italian French, Polish,
>Neapolitan and Spanish systems of lute tablatures has been around for
>centuries, and it's too late to change it now even if one wanted to.
Here's how it was explained to me a long time ago:
'there's Italian, where the top string is on the bottom and they use
numbers for frets,
there's French, where the top string is on top and they use letters
for frets and,
there's Spanish where the top string is on top and they use numbers
for frets........think French with numbers or Italian upside down.
There's also German where each combination of string and fret has it's
own notation, but try to find someone else's transcription of that
stuff."
I'm not familiar with the Polish or Neopolitan systems at all. How do
they work?
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>I'm not familiar with the Polish
Polish tablature is an invention of Arthur Ness. This is a message he
posted on the lute list on June 26, 1995:
"I have had several direct e-mail inquiries regarding "Polish Lute
Tablature," so I thought I'd post this in case others are likewise
curious, as is Ms. Langley.
A manuscript containing Polish tablature dates from the late 17th
century. It was in the private library of Alexander Polinski, who also
owned some other important lute manuscripts which were sold before
WWII (actually before WWI) and have survived. (One is an important
S.L.Weiss source.) There is a facsimile of one page of the manuscript
in Polish tablature in Polinski's, _Dziego muzyki
polskiej w zarysie_ (Lviv 1907), p. 130. Joahnnes Wolf,
_Notationskunde_ II: 88 mentions it with an example (I think; I don't
own a copy of Wolf).
Although his library which was given to the Warsaw Philharmonic was
destroyed in 1939, a copy of the manuscript is among the papers of the
Polish musicologist Maria Szczpanska. The manuscript contained Polish
songs, arias and dances.
Polish tablature uses letters and represents the bottom line as the
highest course. So it's Italian tablature using letters, or French
tablature reversed. [...]"
So I went to Washington, to the Library of Congress, to check. I
needed to consult the Polinski book for other purposes as well, such
as information about Stanislaw Szczepanowski and his portrait (which
is now reproduced in my edition of his known guitar works). So on July
3rd, 1995 I posted this on the lute list:
"In my last post on this subject, I suggested that before we try
to understand if there is such a thing as "Polish lute
Tablature", we ought to check out the original source on which
the terminology is based.
To reiterate the issue: It has been suggested by Arthur Ness that
in 1950, some conference in France decided to accord the term
"Polish Tablature" to a peculiar piece of notation which existed
at one time in a manuscript in the possession of Alexander
Polinski in Warsaw. Arthur pointed out that an example of that
manuscript was given by Johanness Wolf in vol. II of his
_Handbuch der Notationkunde_, page 88. As I suggested in my
previous post on this, Wolf himself does not use the term "Polish
tablature" but rather a "tablature book from Poland." Further
reading gives this information: the context in which Wolf brings
out the Polinski book, is that of the use of numerals as
indicators of lower, unstopped courses. In the previous example,
on page 87, he shows how the numerals were used by Thysius for
courses from the eighth down. (Thysius' tablature staff had seven
lines.) He then says that:
Eine polnische Lautentabulatur aus dem 17. Jahrhunderts aus dem
Besitz Polinski's in Warschau setzt bei dem zehnten Chore mit der
Zahl 3 ein, wie ein Faksimile in Polinski's "Dzieje muzyki
polskiej w zarisie" auf S. 153 dartut.
(A Polish lute tablature book from the 17th century from the
collection of Polinski in Warsaw, uses on the 10th course the
digit 3, as in the facsimile in Polinski's "Dzieje muzyki
polskiej w zarisie," given there on page 153.) (My translation).
There are copies of Polinski's book in the LoC, NYPL, Harvard,
University of Wisconsin in Madison and, most probably, in some
major research libraries in Europe. On a recent visit to the
Library of Congress in Washington, I checked Polinski. The
tablature facsimile on page 153, as stated by Wolf, does in fact
uses the numeral 3 as an indicator for the tenth course. The
tablature itself is clearly what we normally call French
tablature, i.e., the highest line represents the first course,
and the ciphers are normal French tablature ciphers. As a matter
of fact, the example, simply labeled by Polinski as "The
beginning of a lute Fantasia from the 17th century from the
collection of A. Polinski." is clearly for a baroque lute in open
tuning. The first bar looks like this:
Fantasia Db,
Adagio.
-----a--a-------a--c-|
-----a-----c--c------|
-----a---------------|
-----a---------------|
-----a---------------|
_____________________|
/3
There is a breve time signature at the beginning, and the rhythm
signs, which I am not sure how to duplicate here, are a dotted
quarter for the first chord and a eighth note for the second
cipher.
This could well be the Weiss piece Arthur mentioned as having
existed in the Polinski collection. I'll leave it to more
experienced Weiss scholars to determine the question.
In the next paragraph on his page 88, Wolf discusses the _other_
tablature, reproduced in facsimile in Polinski's book, the one in
inverted French tablature. In describing his example of it, Wolf
says that:
Ein Ausschnitt daraus sei hier in den originalschrift dargeboten:
(A detail therefrom is offered here in the original-writing:) (My
translation)
That statement, and the typeset appearance of the musical example
given by Wolf, led me to state that this inverted tablature came
from a printed book and not, as stated by Arthur, from a
manuscript. I was wrong. Checking Polinski directly, it appears
that I have been led down the primrose path by Herr Wolf. The
facsimile on page 130 of Polinski's book does not look like at
all like the example given by Wolf. It is a photographic
reproduction of a _manuscript_, certainly NOT given by Wolf in
the Originalschrift! In other words, if the bibliographic details
of Polinski's book given by Wolf are correct, and they appear to
be, then his depiction of the inverted tablature is a newly
engraved example, and not a reproduction of the original source. In
other words, Wolf was not beyond manufacturing information out of
whole cloth. That tells you why it is so important to question
authority!
Polinski's book is an abbreviated history of Polish music,
intended, as it's title suggests, as an outline, perhaps for use
in high schools and colleges. It is not a very scholarly
production. An interesting feature of the book is that _none_ of
the 147 illustrations and musical examples in it, are referenced
directly in the text of the book. They all came from Polinski's
collection, and are spaced out through the book in a more or less
even manner. The inverted tablature facsimile, for example, is
inserted in the middle of a discussion of Piotr Elert, a 17th
century singer, violist and one of the pioneers of Polish
typography. Likewise, the Weiss-like tablature appears in the
middle of a discussion of Nikolai Dyletski and his books on music
theory published in Russia in 1677.
In conclusion, Polinski himself did not label any of the
tablature examples he gave as "Polish." Wolf, regardless of his
subterfuge in the matter of the inverted tablature, also did not
do so. We have no way of knowing if the Weiss-like tablature
example came from a manuscript written in Poland by a Pole, or is
in fact a lithographic facsimile from a well-known manuscript.
The only identifying mark on the inverted French tablature
example which might indicate a Polish origin, is the spelling of
the word "Taniec" on the first piece in the example, which is
Polish for dance. That tells us that whoever it was who wrote
this manuscript, must have been a Pole, or a foreign lutenist
living in Poland. Who that person was, and whether he represented
more than his own personal idiosyncracy, is not something we can
determine today with any degree of certainty. That is not enough
information on which to base an entire classification of lute
tablature."
So far so good. Since then, Tim Crawford had found this very same
manuscript in the collection of the Comtesse de Chambure, and
ascertained that it was of a piece of music by a famous "Polish"
lutenist named Silvius Leopold Weiss.
The problem with Arthur is that once he made up his mind on something,
he cannot changed it, even if the facts demand that he did. To
acknowledge that this rank amateur ex-airline pilot MO could know
something, is an overwhelming emotional demand on his. Thus he keeps
this Polish tablature non-sense going.
As for Neapolitan tablature, I am sure Arthur will endow us with yet
another dissertation on the subject.
Matanya Ophee
>Hans Newsidler gets published in guitar editions very frequently, and
>his books use German tablature. He was born in Pressburg, now
>Bratislava in Hungary, where German tablature was common.
Arthur Ness suffers from an incurable disease called geographical
cretinism. The city of Bratislava is today the capital of Slovakia.
When it was part of Hungary, it was called Poszony. Also the home town
of Johann Kaspar Mertz, BTW.
arthur ness
As far as I know they are all anonymous. I'd have to see the specific
pieces. There seem to be several sets of rip-off editions from
Chilesotti's publications. But all the ones I know that have been
attributed to V. Galilei are not by him, but come down in the original
sources as anonymous. It is very unlikely that music by Galilei would
have found its way, for example, into a German lute book, to be
attributed to no one.
The commerce in lute music was from south to north and much Italian
lute music is found in German sources, but hardly any German music
appears in Italian sources.
I am writing from the top of my head, but I cannot eveb recall any
lute music by Galilei that does not appear in his own published lute
books and his own manuscripts which survive in a library in Florence.
Most Italian lutenists, even some rather poor ones like Barberiis. saw
their music pirated, especially by Pierre Phalese in Louvain. But he
didn't pirate any music by Galilei that I can recall.
In other words, Galilei's lute music was not admired very much in his
own day. And today, I don't think very much about it either.
One galliard, the Polythemus Galliard, which Respighi used, but did
not attribute to Galilei or even properly title in his score, is an
exception. That's a dandy piece of music, but probably intersting
because of the polyponic writing in a dance piece. Some measures have
canonic imitation.
Polythemus was the muse of sacred music, and that was all polyphonic
back then, In one strain Galilei has the "tune" hidden in an inner
voice, but Respighi (and Paul O'Dette, too) found it there.<g>
This is the first I ever heard that some of these pieces have been
attributed to Galileo Galilei. I do not know who it was that started
these Galilei misattributions. Segovia?
Art.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:03:03 GMT, in rec.music.classical.guitar you
wrote:
Matanya Ophee
>This is the first I ever heard that some of these pieces have been
>attributed to Galileo Galilei. I do not know who it was that started
>these Galilei misattributions. Segovia?
Thank you, once again, for admitting that you haven't a clue what goes
on in the guitar world.
Greg M. Silverman
>7116...@compuserve.com (arthur ness) wrote:
>
>>Hans Newsidler gets published in guitar editions very frequently, and
>>his books use German tablature. He was born in Pressburg, now
>>Bratislava in Hungary, where German tablature was common.
>>
>
>Arthur Ness suffers from an incurable disease called geographical
>cretinism. The city of Bratislava is today the capital of Slovakia.
>When it was part of Hungary, it was called Poszony. Also the home town
>of Johann Kaspar Mertz, BTW.
>
And also the birthplace of several of my wife's maternal relatives.
Cheers!
Greg--
arthur ness
Austria meet. When Newsidler lived there, it was part of Hungary.
Newsidler called his hometown Pressburg, because his family surely
came from the area around the Newsidler See. (Lake Newsidler). He may
not have been Hungarian.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:59:04 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
wrote:
>7116...@compuserve.com (arthur ness) wrote:
Lutester
<ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
>Which edition should I buy, and why?
>
>I'd love to hear from someone who has performed these pieces if
>possible...
>--
>Carlos Barrientos
Here's a shocker.........how about you get a copy of one or more of
the many transcriptions by anyoneyouwish and make your own edition?
Since most of those guys started with the Chilesotti transcriptions
and just added their own finger.....ings(and sometimes notes), what's
to keep you from doing the same thing?
Pride of authorship and all that, you know.
Robert
Lutester
wrote:
>roge...@compuserve.com (roger) wrote:
>
>>None are actually by any Galilei. And many are German, not Italian.
>>Chilesotti often changed the titles from German (Tanz) to Italian
>>(Danza).
>
>So you are saying Arthur, that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>Italian?
>
>And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
>such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz), No. 75
>(Joseph, lieber meine Joseph) and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>
With all due respect to the major combatants in this tiff, I submit
that the scribe was a citizen of the Holy Roman Empire. There does
not seem to be either a "Germany" or an "Italy" on the old maps of
those days.
So we could just call it a push and get on with the question of whose
guitar transcription for Carlos to use as a basis for yet another
version of those tired old beat-up things from days gone by, eh?
Robert
.....another $0.02 shot to hell.
Matanya Ophee
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 01:32:14 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>
>>roge...@compuserve.com (roger) wrote:
>>
>>>None are actually by any Galilei. And many are German, not Italian.
>>>Chilesotti often changed the titles from German (Tanz) to Italian
>>>(Danza).
>>
>>So you are saying Arthur, that the two pieces in Da Un Codice which
>>are titled simply Danza (No. 18 and 42) are German pieces and not
>>Italian?
>>
>>And if so, why did not Chilesotti also change other German titles,
>>such as No. 11 (Ein gut Stueck), No. 16 (Ein Polnischer Tanz), No. 75
>>(Joseph, lieber meine Joseph) and No. 83 (Ich gieng ein mage Bayiern)
>>on which he, or someone at Breitkopf & Härtel put a [sic!] sign?
>>
>With all due respect to the major combatants in this tiff, I submit
>that the scribe was a citizen of the Holy Roman Empire. There does
>not seem to be either a "Germany" or an "Italy" on the old maps of
>those days.
Bravo! Well said!
>
>So we could just call it a push and get on with the question of whose
>guitar transcription for Carlos to use as a basis for yet another
>version of those tired old beat-up things from days gone by, eh?
Perhaps the original Chilesotti transcriptions would be a good place
to start. Carlos could get the Hoban intabulation, which is a pretty
good buy at $25.00 and then transcribe from the tablature. But this
would be like transliterating Italian names from Russian, where, as
Nicholas Slonimsky once pointed out, results in monstrosities like
Pushchshchinni. Or Carlos could wait until the Chilesotti itself
became once again available. Somehow, I have this nagging suspicion he
would not have to wait long.
Matanya Ophee
>Yes, that is what I said.
That is NOT what you said. You said: "He was born in Pressburg, now
Bratislava in Hungary..."
Now, Richard Yates, can you apply your inimitable parsing powers to
this one and see if Arthur lied or not?
>It is where Czechoslovakia,
There is no such place as Czechoslovakia today, and there was no such
place as Czechoslovakia at the time Newsidler or Mertz lived there.
> Hungary and
>Austria meet. When Newsidler lived there, it was part of Hungary.
If that is so, it was known as Poszony officially.
Lutester
wrote:
>Perhaps the original Chilesotti transcriptions would be a good place
>to start. Carlos could get the Hoban intabulation, which is a pretty
>good buy at $25.00 and then transcribe from the tablature.
Let me see if I have this correct. You want him to buy someone's
intabulation (for $25) of a transcription of the original tablature so
he can go and transcribe it again to make his own transcription?
Interesting concept.
>But this
>would be like transliterating Italian names from Russian, where, as
>Nicholas Slonimsky once pointed out, results in monstrosities like
>Pushchshchinni. Or Carlos could wait until the Chilesotti itself
>became once again available. Somehow, I have this nagging suspicion he
>would not have to wait long.
There appears to be something being hinted at here. My old Forni
version is holding up pretty well or I'd rise to the bait.
In my best Holy Roman Empire accent.....Ciao, baby!
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:45:48 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Perhaps the original Chilesotti transcriptions would be a good place
>>to start. Carlos could get the Hoban intabulation, which is a pretty
>>good buy at $25.00 and then transcribe from the tablature.
>
>Let me see if I have this correct. You want him to buy someone's
>intabulation (for $25) of a transcription of the original tablature so
>he can go and transcribe it again to make his own transcription?
>Interesting concept.
Very In-te-re-sting Indeed. I did not say I _want_ him to do that. I
suggested he_could_ that, since this appears to be the only version
available in print at this time. Of course, since the Hoban
intabulations include many changes of the Chilesotti text, some of
which are indicated and many of which are silent, what Carlos would
generate may not look like anything Chilesotti had done, but then, if
he is an experinced transcriber, it just might. (and he could check
with you to see if he got it right...)
>
>>But this
>>would be like transliterating Italian names from Russian, where, as
>>Nicholas Slonimsky once pointed out, results in monstrosities like
>>Pushchshchinni. Or Carlos could wait until the Chilesotti itself
>>became once again available. Somehow, I have this nagging suspicion he
>>would not have to wait long.
>
>There appears to be something being hinted at here. My old Forni
>version is holding up pretty well or I'd rise to the bait.
Well, I don't have the Forni, but I do have a pristine copy of the
original 1890 B&H edition. I thought I could do a reprint of this, but
I dropped the idea. As you know, the original is in oblong format, in
a non-standard size, about 120 pages. I even got a quote for that from
my printers. The cost of doing this reprint today, in the US, would be
so high because of the strange format and size, that it would make the
book so expensive no one would buy it. The other issue here is why
Forni has not reprinted it for so many years.
The cost of printing in Italy is about 4 times higher than in the US.
This was not always true, but it is true today. Many European
publishers actually print in the US, which makes the project feasible,
even if you tack on the freight charges. But still the price of the
edition, printed in the US, transported to Italy, and then shipped
back to a US dealer, would make it way beyond the means of most users.
That is why I would be much suprised if Forni actually reprinted this
book any time soon.
What is being hinted here then? a dark Ominous Secret which will be
revealed to all anytime soon? who knows?
I know who knows but I am not telling...:-(
>In my best Holy Roman Empire accent.....Ciao, baby!
Ciao Baby indeed.
arthur ness
Yes, I know about all the systems. I wrote the article "Tablatures"
for the New Harvard Dictionary of Music, ed. Don Randal.<g>
You have described them correctly. As for the others:
Neapolitan tablature is like "Spanish" tablature that Luis Milan used,
except that the open courses ares indicated with a "1" not the "0" of
Spanish tablature, "2" = first fret, "3"=second fret, etc.. Top line
= top string. A book of tablatures by Francesco da Miano that was
published in Naples in 1536 uses Neapolitan tablature. There are other
examples in manjuscripts and in a broadside from abourt 1586
explaining the various kinds of lute tablature,
There are only two manuscripts that use Polish tablature, and it gets
its name because one is a manuscript that belonged to a Polish count
and it contains entirely Polish dances and songs. It is inverted
French tablature. Like Italian tablature but with letters of the
alphabet. For a long time that was thought to be the only source that
uses it, but a few pieces have been found at the back of a printed
book of lute music.
German tablature is used today more than we here in the west realize.
It is the preferred system of many east-European lutenists. If you
started playing German tablature, you would find all the others
screwy. Honest.
I had a student who learned to play German tablature on her guitar,
because she wanted to explore the Polish repertory. And indeed
probably a third of the entire Renaissance lute repertory is in German
tabkature. And at that international lute confeence in Tours in 198?,
two eastern European lutenists proposed that German tabature become
the universal standard tablature notation. That proposal didn't get
very far, but German tablature does have some advantages over the
other systems. The biggest problem is readings those old fashioed
German letters of the alphabet. But after a while that's not too
difficult.
Arthur.
arthur ness
would he propose it its stead?
As Matanya himself observed, the term "Polish tablature" was coined at
an international symposium on lute music held a Neuilly-sur-Seine in
the 1950s.
What's wrong with that?
And the term Neapolitan tablature was already in use in the 16th
century, so I didn't invent that term, either.
Those are the standard terms for those kinds of tablature.
On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:45:54 GMT,
Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm not familiar with the Polish
>
>Polish tablature is an invention of Arthur Ness.
NOPE! NOT I.
<<snip>>
AJN
arthur ness
wrote:
>
>If that is so, it was known as Poszony officially.
>
name when the Turks invaded the city in the 1520s. I think that's why
Newsidler went to Nuremberg, fleeing from the Turks.
>
>
Matanya Ophee
>If Matanya doesn't care for the terminology "Polish tablature," what
>would he propose it its stead?
>
>As Matanya himself observed, the term "Polish tablature" was coined at
>an international symposium on lute music held a Neuilly-sur-Seine in
>the 1950s.
>
>What's wrong with that?
That it is simply a wrong assumption that because one piece of music
of Silvius Leopold Weiss was found in the possession of a Polish
collector, it was in a Polsih tablature. Now that you sepocifically
mentioned the
>
>And the term Neapolitan tablature was already in use in the 16th
>century, so I didn't invent that term, either.
>
>Those are the standard terms for those kinds of tablature.
>
>On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:45:54 GMT,
>Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote:
>
>>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm not familiar with the Polish
>>
>>Polish tablature is an invention of Arthur Ness.
>
>NOPE! NOT I.
>
><<snip>>
>
>AJN
Matanya Ophee
Matanya Ophee
>If Matanya doesn't care for the terminology "Polish tablature," what
>would he propose it its stead?
>
>As Matanya himself observed, the term "Polish tablature" was coined at
>an international symposium on lute music held a Neuilly-sur-Seine in
>the 1950s.
>
>What's wrong with that?
That it is simply a wrong assumption that because one piece of music
of Silvius Leopold Weiss was found in the possession of a Polish
collector, it was in a Polish tablature. Now that you specifically
mentioned the Neuilly-sur-Seine conference, which you did not before,
I'll check this out and see what exactly it did say.
In any case, now that the manuscript is in Paris, perhaps it ought to
be called a Parisian tablature?
>
>And the term Neapolitan tablature was already in use in the 16th
>century, so I didn't invent that term, either.
I did not say that you did _that_ too.
>
>Those are the standard terms for those kinds of tablature.
As I explained in my lengthy post on this issue, if that is indeed the
standard, which, you seem to be the only person so using it, then it
is dead wrong. Tim Crawford who studied this manuscript in detail
certainly does not call it Polish tablature.
I do not quarrel with the term Neapolitan.
Lutester
wrote:
>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:45:48 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Perhaps the original Chilesotti transcriptions would be a good place
>>>to start. Carlos could get the Hoban intabulation, which is a pretty
>>>good buy at $25.00 and then transcribe from the tablature.
>>
>>Let me see if I have this correct. You want him to buy someone's
>>intabulation (for $25) of a transcription of the original tablature so
>>he can go and transcribe it again to make his own transcription?
>>Interesting concept.
>
>Very In-te-re-sting Indeed. I did not say I _want_ him to do that. I
>suggested he_could_ that, since this appears to be the only version
>available in print at this time.
I stand corrected. However, there are a lot of things he *could* do,
but only one or two that seem to make sense. One, he could just use
the some of the various versions that abound in just about any
compendium....s that are available, or he could get a copy from the
Forni Ed. of the ones he wants from some kindly newsgroup reader here.
>Of course, since the Hoban
>intabulations include many changes of the Chilesotti text, some of
>which are indicated and many of which are silent, what Carlos would
>generate may not look like anything Chilesotti had done, but then, if
>he is an experinced transcriber, it just might. (and he could check
>with you to see if he got it right...)
Yes, he could do that....or he could just skip the middleman and all
the changes of the changes from the original and just get the
aforementioned xeroxes.
>
>>
>>There appears to be something being hinted at here. My old Forni
>>version is holding up pretty well or I'd rise to the bait.
>
>Well, I don't have the Forni, but I do have a pristine copy of the
>original 1890 B&H edition. I thought I could do a reprint of this, but
>I dropped the idea. As you know, the original is in oblong format, in
>a non-standard size, about 120 pages. I even got a quote for that from
>my printers. The cost of doing this reprint today, in the US, would be
>so high because of the strange format and size, that it would make the
>book so expensive no one would buy it. The other issue here is why
>Forni has not reprinted it for so many years.
>
I once had a heated discussion on this same subject once with a
facsimile publisher. I forget the exact one, but I suggested that he
could just put that 6x8 inch copy on a standard 8x10 inch size page
and forgo the luxury of the odd size and oblong format. I even
suggested that the extra space could be used for making notes.
Seems the aura of authenticity was stronger than the lure of $$ in
sales so they never did it. Kind of like gut strings.
>The cost of printing in Italy is about 4 times higher than in the US.
>This was not always true, but it is true today. Many European
>publishers actually print in the US, which makes the project feasible,
>even if you tack on the freight charges. But still the price of the
>edition, printed in the US, transported to Italy, and then shipped
>back to a US dealer, would make it way beyond the means of most users.
>
>That is why I would be much suprised if Forni actually reprinted this
>book any time soon.
>
>What is being hinted here then? a dark Ominous Secret which will be
>revealed to all anytime soon? who knows?
>
Oh boy, dark ominous secrets..........my favorite kinds.
Adios,
Robert
Matanya Ophee
Obviously. That still does not make Bratislava as a place in Hungary.
You lied.
Carlos Barrientos
Gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in my skills!
And now for the next question... ASSUMING, I am unable to purchase these
pieces, prithee, where shall I acquire a copy of this intellectual content
without having to resort to some patently criminal activity? (He asked
naively, while batting his long dark eyelashes perplexedly...)
Lutester wrote:
--
Lutester
ness) wrote:
>
>Yes, I know about all the systems. I wrote the article "Tablatures"
>for the New Harvard Dictionary of Music, ed. Don Randal.<g>
>
>You have described them correctly. As for the others:
>
>Neapolitan tablature is like "Spanish" tablature that Luis Milan used,
>except that the open courses ares indicated with a "1" not the "0" of
>Spanish tablature, "2" = first fret, "3"=second fret, etc.. Top line
>= top string. A book of tablatures by Francesco da Miano that was
>published in Naples in 1536 uses Neapolitan tablature. There are other
>examples in manjuscripts and in a broadside from abourt 1586
>explaining the various kinds of lute tablature,
>
Sounds like Spanish tablature with a capo on the first fret.
>There are only two manuscripts that use Polish tablature, and it gets
>its name because one is a manuscript that belonged to a Polish count
>and it contains entirely Polish dances and songs. It is inverted
>French tablature. Like Italian tablature but with letters of the
>alphabet. For a long time that was thought to be the only source that
>uses it, but a few pieces have been found at the back of a printed
>book of lute music.
>
Given that there are only four variations of the number-letter-top
string up- top string down systems, I sort of figured that might be
the one missing. I will resist the temptation to make any kind of
ethnic jokes.
>German tablature is used today more than we here in the west realize.
>It is the preferred system of many east-European lutenists. If you
>started playing German tablature, you would find all the others
>screwy. Honest.
>
If I started playing German tablature, all others would find *me*
screwy. Honest.
I have only known one person that could and would sight read German
tablature and she could also sight read from an orchestral score on
the lute as well..........Donna Curry.
>I had a student who learned to play German tablature on her guitar,
>because she wanted to explore the Polish repertory. And indeed
>probably a third of the entire Renaissance lute repertory is in German
>tabkature. And at that international lute confeence in Tours in 198?,
>two eastern European lutenists proposed that German tabature become
>the universal standard tablature notation. That proposal didn't get
>very far, but German tablature does have some advantages over the
>other systems. The biggest problem is readings those old fashioed
>German letters of the alphabet. But after a while that's not too
>difficult.
The problem I had with German tab was that you couldn't get an idea of
where the melody was going by looking at the sheet. It was easier to
just skip it and go on to the other stuff. I'm a practical guy and
was looking for things to play.
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>>Very In-te-re-sting Indeed. I did not say I _want_ him to do that. I
>>suggested he_could_ that, since this appears to be the only version
>>available in print at this time.
>
>I stand corrected. However, there are a lot of things he *could* do,
>but only one or two that seem to make sense. One, he could just use
>the some of the various versions that abound in just about any
>compendium....s that are available, or he could get a copy from the
>Forni Ed. of the ones he wants from some kindly newsgroup reader here.
Or get it on InterLibraryLoan. According to the OCLC database, it is
available in 38 US libraries. I am sure Arthur, who is not library
challenged as I am, would be happy to assist him here.
>I once had a heated discussion on this same subject once with a
>facsimile publisher. I forget the exact one, but I suggested that he
>could just put that 6x8 inch copy on a standard 8x10 inch size page
>and forgo the luxury of the odd size and oblong format. I even
>suggested that the extra space could be used for making notes.
I thought of that. But it is a bit awkward from a graphic point of
view. The length of the original staves is 8.5 inches. To fit it on a
standard 8.5 x 11, or even 9 x 12, would necessitate a reduction. The
musical type is pretty small already. I dropped the idea.
>>What is being hinted here then? a dark Ominous Secret which will be
>>revealed to all anytime soon? who knows?
>>
>Oh boy, dark ominous secrets..........my favorite kinds.
Stay tuned. Same station.
Greg M. Silverman
>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>>Very In-te-re-sting Indeed. I did not say I _want_ him to do that. I
>>>suggested he_could_ that, since this appears to be the only version
>>>available in print at this time.
>>>
>>I stand corrected. However, there are a lot of things he *could* do,
>>but only one or two that seem to make sense. One, he could just use
>>the some of the various versions that abound in just about any
>>compendium....s that are available, or he could get a copy from the
>>Forni Ed. of the ones he wants from some kindly newsgroup reader here.
>>
>
>Or get it on InterLibraryLoan. According to the OCLC database, it is
>available in 38 US libraries. I am sure Arthur, who is not library
>challenged as I am, would be happy to assist him here.
>
yes, this will work. I myself was going to do this back when I was hot
and heavy on the Chilesotti, and they could have obliged my request, but
other demands kind of put this on the backburner.
<<snip>>
>>>What is being hinted here then? a dark Ominous Secret which will be
>>>revealed to all anytime soon? who knows?
>>>
>>Oh boy, dark ominous secrets..........my favorite kinds.
>>
>Stay tuned. Same station.
>
Hmmmmmmmm....
Gregorious--
arthur ness
wrote:
>Now that you specifically
>mentioned the Neuilly-sur-Seine conference, which you did not before,
>I'll check this out and see what exactly it did say.
I've mentioned it many times. It was during discussions about a
international collboration to inventory the original surces of lute
music. They needed a term for the Polish system., so they decided to
call it Polish tablature. Makes sense.
>In any case, now that the manuscript is in Paris, perhaps it ought to
>be called a Parisian tablature?
Stop being stupid.
>>
>As I explained in my lengthy post on this issue, if that is indeed the
>standard, which, you seem to be the only person so using it, then it
>is dead wrong. Tim Crawford who studied this manuscript in detail
>certainly does not call it Polish tablature.
Crawford has never studied the manuscript of Polish songs and dances,
just the Weiss manuscript in Paris. He probably saw it first when it
was owned by Madame Thibault.
>
>Matanya Ophee
ajn
arthur ness
wrote:
>That it is simply a wrong assumption that because one piece of music
>of Silvius Leopold Weiss was found in the possession of a Polish
>collector, it was in a Polsih tablature. Now that you sepocifically
>mentioned the
<you were about to say?>
Stop misrepresenting thefacts. You are still CONFUSED. There are TWO
lute manuscirpts that Polinski owned. One came into the possession of
Genevieve Thibault (the Comtesse de Chambure) and is now in the
National Library in Paris. It has not one, but 121 pieces by Weiss,
and is in normal French tablature for baroque lute. It was copied in
Venice in 1712.
The other one in the Polish tablature system remained in Polinski's
possession, and is now lost. A copy of it is in a Warsaw library. The
contents consist entirely of Polish songs and dances.
Got it now?
<<snip>>
>>>
>>>Polish tablature is an invention of Arthur Ness.
>>
>>NOPE! NOT I.
>>
>><<snip>><<snap>>
>>
>>AJN
>
>Matanya Ophee
AJN
Lutester
<ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>This has gotten very interesting...
>
>Gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in my skills!
>
>And now for the next question... ASSUMING, I am unable to purchase these
>pieces, prithee, where shall I acquire a copy of this intellectual content
>without having to resort to some patently criminal activity? (He asked
>naively, while batting his long dark eyelashes perplexedly...)
Much as I would love to ride to your aid as the masked lute player
from the plains with my silver tablatures and manuscripts, I will
pass.
Instead, I will commend to you the two volume set called:
"The Library of Guitar Classics" published by AMSCO, compiled and
edited by Jerry Willard.
Hickey's music : http://www.hickeys.com/pages/gtcoll.htm has Vol 1 for
about $24. Vol 2 costs $22. Between the two books you will have all
the stuff recorded by about 90% of the artists you ever imagined.
The very first 6 pieces in the set are the ones for which you are
looking. You don't even have to transcribe the intabulations of the
previous transcriptions.
Glad to help.
Robert
Carlos Barrientos
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2002 21:43:18 GMT, Carlos Barrientos
> <ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> >This has gotten very interesting...
> >
> >Gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in my skills!
> >
> >And now for the next question... ASSUMING, I am unable to purchase these
> >pieces, prithee, where shall I acquire a copy of this intellectual content
> >without having to resort to some patently criminal activity? (He asked
> >naively, while batting his long dark eyelashes perplexedly...)
>
> Much as I would love to ride to your aid as the masked lute player
> from the plains with my silver tablatures and manuscripts, I will
> pass.
>
> Instead, I will commend to you the two volume set called:
> "The Library of Guitar Classics" published by AMSCO, compiled and
> edited by Jerry Willard.
Both Volumes are in my hands as I type and was thrown, for there is a
discrepancy in the names of the first six pieces in Volume 1 and the titles we
have been bandying about, masked lute player, are different!
So, you see, you did ride from the plains with silver tablatures and
manuscripts to my aid, after all! BRAVO, Well done.
> Hickey's music : http://www.hickeys.com/pages/gtcoll.htm has Vol 1 for
> about $24. Vol 2 costs $22. Between the two books you will have all
> the stuff recorded by about 90% of the artists you ever imagined.
>
> The very first 6 pieces in the set are the ones for which you are
> looking. You don't even have to transcribe the intabulations of the
> previous transcriptions.
What a relief!
> Glad to help.
>
> Robert
Gracias, mi amigo!
Well, now that's what I call a news group! I thank all of you for so much
data, learned discussion and shared effort expended on my behalf. I wondered
if these were the pieces in question and I hope that's the case. I am getting
back in saddle and have been looking at these as well as the set of the Milan
Pavans. I've been threatening to learn all six for years and I haven't gotten
around to it. Long climb up, but I'm noticing tone things and angle of
nails...
It's after an experience like this that I'm glad I participate in this
newsgroup and then . . . the feeling goes away . . . until the next time.
Thanx to all again and will let you know what's going on!
PS Anybody here live close to San Antonio, TX? Might be in your neighborhood
sometime soon... Would love to meet some faces to names...
Papa Carlos
PGS
"Greg wrote:
One of the lawyers I work with jokes that his house sits right on top of
the entrance to the Polish Underground Railroad (Wellesly, MA). He says
there is no other way of explaining why SO many of his wife's Polish
relatives come over and stay for months on end....and then invite
friends. ;-) That'ns worth a chuckle or two....maybe your house is on
one of the stops?? he-he-he
S.
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"To live is so startling, it leaves but little room
for other occupations."
~Emily Dickinson
Letters of Emily Dickinson, vol. 2 (1894)
Greg M. Silverman
>
> "Greg wrote:
>
> > Matanya Ophee wrote:
> >
> > >7116...@compuserve.com (arthur ness) wrote:
> > >
> > >>Hans Newsidler gets published in guitar editions very frequently, and
> > >>his books use German tablature. He was born in Pressburg, now
> > >>Bratislava in Hungary, where German tablature was common.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Arthur Ness suffers from an incurable disease called geographical
> > >cretinism. The city of Bratislava is today the capital of Slovakia.
> > >When it was part of Hungary, it was called Poszony. Also the home town
> > >of Johann Kaspar Mertz, BTW.
> > >
> >
> > And also the birthplace of several of my wife's maternal relatives.
> >
> > Cheers!
> > Greg--
>
> One of the lawyers I work with jokes that his house sits right on top of
> the entrance to the Polish Underground Railroad (Wellesly, MA). He says
> there is no other way of explaining why SO many of his wife's Polish
> relatives come over and stay for months on end....and then invite
> friends. ;-) That'ns worth a chuckle or two....maybe your house is on
> one of the stops?? he-he-he
>
Funny! Actually one of the relatives is none other than the physicist
Victor Weiskopf. From what I hear, he is quite a not-so-nice-person and
thankfully we don't communicate with him. So there it be!
Greg--
PGS
Papa wrote:
This has gotten very interesting...Gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in my skills!
And now for the next question... ASSUMING, I am unable to purchase these
pieces, prithee, where shall I acquire a copy of this intellectual content
without having to resort to some patently criminal activity? (He asked
naively, while batting his long dark eyelashes perplexedly...)
What nice EYELASHES you have....
Carlos Barrientos
PGS wrote:
>
>
> Papa wrote:
>
>> This has gotten very interesting...
>>
>> Gentlemen I appreciate your confidence in my skills!
>>
>> And now for the next question... ASSUMING, I am unable to purchase
>> these
>> pieces, prithee, where shall I acquire a copy of this intellectual
>> content
>> without having to resort to some patently criminal activity? (He
>> asked
>> naively, while batting his long dark eyelashes perplexedly...)
>>
>
> What nice EYELASHES you have....
>
> S.
Response #1,
Awww, well..., gee..., aww shucks, maim, (appropriate georgia tone?)
Response #2,
"The better to see you through, my dear ... ", he slavered vulpinely
....
Take your pick.
I've been playing for way too many blissful, blushing, blossoms of
southern womanhood, lately, hence the pose...
BTW, I love the Emily Dickinsn Quotation.
Papa
>
>
> --
> Phillips Guitar Studio
> P.O. Box 836
> Boston, MA 02103-0836
> p...@attbi.com
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
> "To live is so startling, it leaves but little room
> for other occupations."
> ~Emily Dickinson
> Letters of Emily Dickinson, vol. 2 (1894)
>
--
PGS
Carlos B wrote:
> PGS wrote:
>
>
> > What nice EYELASHES you have....
> >
> > S.
>
> Response #1,
>
> Awww, well..., gee..., aww shucks, maim, (appropriate georgia tone?)
That WAS a pretty good ma'am.... ;-)
> Response #2,
>
> "The better to see you through, my dear ... ", he slavered vulpinely
> ....
>
> Take your pick.
HA-ha-ha. I can't decide!
> I've been playing for way too many blissful, blushing, blossoms of
> southern womanhood, lately, hence the pose...
>
> BTW, I love the Emily Dickinsn Quotation.
>
> Papa
Good work. You keep playing. They'll keep listening. ;-)
Thanks - it is a nice quote, isn't it?
S.
PGS
"Greg M. Silverman" wrote:
>
> > One of the lawyers I work with jokes that his house sits right on top of
> > the entrance to the Polish Underground Railroad (Wellesly, MA). He says
> > there is no other way of explaining why SO many of his wife's Polish
> > relatives come over and stay for months on end....and then invite
> > friends. ;-) That'ns worth a chuckle or two....maybe your house is on
> > one of the stops?? he-he-he
> >
>
> Funny! Actually one of the relatives is none other than the physicist
> Victor Weiskopf. From what I hear, he is quite a not-so-nice-person and
> thankfully we don't communicate with him. So there it be!
>
> Greg--
Maybe you shouldn't tell _him_ about the Railroad then, eh??
He-he-he.
Lutester
<ca...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Both Volumes are in my hands as I type and was thrown, for there is a
>discrepancy in the names of the first six pieces in Volume 1 and the titles we
>have been bandying about, masked lute player, are different!
>
>So, you see, you did ride from the plains with silver tablatures and
>manuscripts to my aid, after all! BRAVO, Well done.
If these are the pieces you are looking for:
1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro.
This one is not in the "Guitar Classics" book
2. Bianco Fiore
This one is not in the "Guitar Classics" book either
3. Danza
This one is in the book along with the "nachtanz"
5. Se io m'accorgo
This one Is also in the book as "Se io m'accorgo ben mio d'un
altro amante"
6. Salarello
This one is in the book as "Saltarello"....... the title in
Chilesotti is "Italiana"
One personal caution, if you want to learn these, I suggest you do it
with the 3rd string down to f# so you can play them on a lute when you
get the chance. Also, a lot of the guitar editions just thin the
chords and leave out that pesky f#. Not a big deal to me, but there
are a few anal-retentives that might hoot at you, and we wouldn't want
that at all.
Good luck!
Robert
Greg M. Silverman
>"Greg M. Silverman" wrote:
>
>>>One of the lawyers I work with jokes that his house sits right on top of
>>>the entrance to the Polish Underground Railroad (Wellesly, MA). He says
>>>there is no other way of explaining why SO many of his wife's Polish
>>>relatives come over and stay for months on end....and then invite
>>>friends. ;-) That'ns worth a chuckle or two....maybe your house is on
>>>one of the stops?? he-he-he
>>>
>>Funny! Actually one of the relatives is none other than the physicist
>>Victor Weiskopf. From what I hear, he is quite a not-so-nice-person and
>>thankfully we don't communicate with him. So there it be!
>>
>>Greg--
>>
>
>Maybe you shouldn't tell _him_ about the Railroad then, eh??
>
>He-he-he.
>
Sherriopolino,
As Bono said: Ach-tung baby! :-)
BTW: we got our Sweet Polly Purebred the other day! She is one bundle of
energy and is very sweet and quite intelligent AND is SO small (she
clocks in at 32 lbs)! Have yet to see her herd oddities, but she figured
out how to open the kennel when we're not around; we'll see if she can
figure out how to undo bungee chords!
Greg-o-rino--
Hierle aus Nürnberg
<<snip>>>
>If these are the pieces you are looking for:
>
>1. Vaghe belleze et bionde treccie d'oro vedi che per ti moro.
> This one is not in the "Guitar Classics" book
=No. 17 in Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. The original is a 4-voice
madrigal by Luigi Torti, and the intabulation is taken by Hierle, the
German student who orignally owned the Lauten-Buch. from Adrian
Denss's printed lute book (Cologne, 1594)
>2. Bianco Fiore
> This one is not in the "Guitar Classics" book either
>3. Danza
> This one is in the book along with the "nachtanz"
=??No. 41 in the Codice Lauten-Buch with the title "Danza polacca."
This is the only Danza in the CLt-Buch with a Nachtanz. If the same,
the original title is "Hungarischer Tanntz," and Chilesotti changed
the title (and nationality) of the dance.
>5. Se io m'accorgo
> This one Is also in the book as "Se io m'accorgo ben mio d'un
> altro amante"
=No. 2 in CLt-Buch with full title. It is also probably a madrigal,
but I do not know the original composer.
>6. Salarello
> This one is in the book as "Saltarello"....... the title in
> Chilesotti is "Italiana"
Heavens!!! If this is the Italians with the D-A-d ostinato, it is NOT
by V. Galilei, but by an anonymous German or Dutch lutenist. There
are several similar pieces in drop D tuning (or for lute drop F) in
Leopold Fuhrmann's published lute book (about 1605).
=No. 59 in CLt-Buch. Also used by Respighi. No way is this piece a
saltarello. It's a bagpipes piece.
>
Hierle.
Matanya Ophee
I am not going to argue with you about areas in which you are the
recgnized expert. Thank you for publishing here the same information
that is included in the Hoban book. Keep this up, and there would be
no need for anyone to buy it.
But one thing I am curious about: in the Hoban book, the name of the
Nurenberg merchant is spelled Schierle, not Hierle. Which one was it?
PGS
Greg Do-you-want-some-vino wrote:
> Sherriopolino,
> As Bono said: Ach-tung baby! :-)
>
> BTW: we got our Sweet Polly Purebred the other day! She is one bundle of
> energy and is very sweet and quite intelligent AND is SO small (she
> clocks in at 32 lbs)! Have yet to see her herd oddities, but she figured
> out how to open the kennel when we're not around; we'll see if she can
> figure out how to undo bungee chords!
>
> Greg-o-rino--
Bless you! That sounds like it hurt! he-he-he. Need a tissue??
Polly Purebred. Wonderful! So yeah, bungee chords will probably definitely
present a challenge....for a day or so, anyway. he-he-he.
Keep us posted. I love dogs (and animals in general, for that matter). I
wish I could have a dog. No place for one, and not home enough....<sigh>. I
can live vicariously through yourself and Ms. Polly. :-)
Schierle ofer Hierle
wrote:
>
> Thank you for publishing here the same information
>that is included in the Hoban book. Keep this up, and there would be
>no need for anyone to buy it.
Lutenists are buying it like hotcakes, and not for the information _I_
(AJN) provided for the Index. It is copyrighted, too. So be careful.
You will note that Dick Hoban thanks me for providing that
information. See the Index. In fact I think he names me as author of
the index with all that special information, much of which I got from
the Tappert and Chilesotti Papers.
Don't you see my name there, Ophee?
If so, why did you misrepresent that in what you wrote here?
You really are a snake in the grass. If that information came from
someone else, I would have acknowledged that person's contribution.
Unlike you, Ophee.
>
>But one thing I am curious about: in the Hoban book, the name of the
>Nurenberg merchant is spelled Schierle, not Hierle. Which one was it?
>
Why don't you look it up. Your friend in Berlin can find it in the
Tappert Papers. If he can find his way to the library. (It's on the
famous Unter den Linden Street, not far from the Brandenberg Gate if I
remember correclty.)
Hoban made some mistakes. For example, I corrected his misspelling of
Respighi by writing it REspighi, but it still came out
"Raspighi."<sigh> I guess I shouldn't have hinted.
Dick was more interested in the accuracy and fidelity of his
re-intabularions to what Chilesotti published.
And you lied about that, too, didn't you, Matanya.
>
Hierle, ich bin Schierle.
Lutester
Thanks Hierle, but the fellow does not have the Chilesotti volume so
he isn't likely to be able to use all that wonderful info. Nor does
he have access to the original manuscript so he won't be able to
either verify or use the various amplifications you allude to in the
Chilesotti book.
I can only guess that you are just showing off here for the "unwashed"
that are/were interested in the answers to the original request for
help in putting together these pieces.
As a correction to your ostentatious presentation, the Danza of #3 is
the pair of pieces found as Nr 93, pg 98 in the Forni edition of
Chilesotti's work. Perhaps you should invest in a copy of those
"Guitar Classics" for your extensive library so you can better relate
to the "unwashed."
Thanks again,
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>One personal caution, if you want to learn these, I suggest you do it
>with the 3rd string down to f# so you can play them on a lute when you
>get the chance. Also, a lot of the guitar editions just thin the
>chords and leave out that pesky f#. Not a big deal to me, but there
>are a few anal-retentives that might hoot at you, and we wouldn't want
>that at all.
Same anal-retentives might then take the good cause and hoot at the
Hoban intabulation in which he did exactly the same thing. Not for the
purpose of leaving out the pesky f# of course, but for the purpose of
making the piece playable on the lute. Dick Hoban was perfectly
justified in making his changes and I have no problem with them. Some
of Chilesotti's transcriptions are not playable as notated. Not on the
lute and certainly not on the guitar.
As for the f# thing, most of the time it really makes things a lot
easier. But there are some pieces, mostly those that are in G major,
where it doesn't make a difference, and actually easier with (3) = G.
It also depend on the texture. I played the Saltarelo at the very
beginning of my guitar career some 45 years ago, in standard tuning,
(6) in D of course. Now that I have the Italiana, same damn tune as
you pointed out (but without any slurs), I can still play it the same
way. The third string is hardly used and it makes no difference how it
is tuned.
Matanya Ophee
>On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:49:20 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for publishing here the same information
>>that is included in the Hoban book. Keep this up, and there would be
>>no need for anyone to buy it.
>
>Lutenists are buying it like hotcakes
I am glad to hear that. It is good music and for the time being, the
only source of this music available in print. But I am wondering how
hot are those cakes you talk about and if the tremendous circulation
of this book is the reason why it is produced by KINKO, one at a time.
>and not for the information _I_
>(AJN) provided for the Index. It is copyrighted, too. So be careful.
What's copyrighted there? the intabulation? you can have that. Where I
come from, the world of the classical guitar, people are not
interested in this notation.The music itself? it is in the public
domain. The graphic image? it is also in the public domain. The
additional data you provided? I suppose it is, but then there is no
need for anyone to take it from Hoban as long as you keep posting it
for free here.
>You will note that Dick Hoban thanks me for providing that
>information.
I noted that very well. One thing I always wondered about why was it
you did not sign your name to this? any secrets we should know about?
>See the Index. In fact I think he names me as author of
he does not. he gives you credit for the help you gave him.
>Don't you see my name there, Ophee?
>
>If so, why did you misrepresent that in what you wrote here?
What misrepresentation? I said the Hoban book says Schierle. That's
what it says. So what do I misrepresent?
>You really are a snake in the grass.
You are right about that, so better watch your step. It does not take
rocket science to figure out that if information you provided to
Hoban said Schierle, and a post on this here group said Hierle, there
is a discrepancy, then there is a good chance that you suffer from
short term memory loss, and the mere fact that you have never
published the results of your research into the Tappert papers in a
refreed journal, is preventing even you to look up what you have
written before.
> If that information came from
>someone else, I would have acknowledged that person's contribution.
>
>Unlike you, Ophee.
In other words, when I point out to you that either you committed a
mistake when you gave the name to Hoban, or that you committed a
mistake when posting another name here, I am providing information?
Like hell I do. I am asking a simple question which would have taken
exactly one line to answer.
>>But one thing I am curious about: in the Hoban book, the name of the
>>Nurenberg merchant is spelled Schierle, not Hierle. Which one was it?
>>
>Why don't you look it up.
No sir. I don't have to look it up. You are the one who provided both
names, you are the one who fucked up, and you are the one who needs to
clean up your act.
>Hoban made some mistakes.
So the name in the Hoban book is a mistake? and this mistake was
committed by Hoban?
> For example, I corrected his misspelling of
>Respighi by writing it REspighi, but it still came out
>"Raspighi."<sigh> I guess I shouldn't have hinted.
So why did not correct his misspelling of the name Schierle?
I'll tell you why. Because you yourself posted the name Schierle on
the lute list. And just to be sure, I will ask Dick what he knows
about this.
>Dick was more interested in the accuracy and fidelity of his
>re-intabularions to what Chilesotti published.
>
>And you lied about that, too, didn't you, Matanya.
You wish I did. Unfortunately, I did not. Actually, I compiled a long
list of the changes from the original Chilesotti text Hoban made, and
it is far larger than the three or four spots where he actually
footnoted his changes. It would make for a very nice publication on
GALI. As I said: I have nothing against the changes he made. In most
cases they were perfectly justified, and obviously, you had nothing to
do with this, because only a lute player would have known that some of
Chilesotti's is unplayable on the lute. You are not a lute player and
never have been.
>Hierle, ich bin Schierle.
So what that's supposed to mean? why isn't it possible to come out and
state what the name really was?
Lutester
wrote:
>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>One personal caution, if you want to learn these, I suggest you do it
>>with the 3rd string down to f# so you can play them on a lute when you
>>get the chance. Also, a lot of the guitar editions just thin the
>>chords and leave out that pesky f#. Not a big deal to me, but there
>>are a few anal-retentives that might hoot at you, and we wouldn't want
>>that at all.
>
>Same anal-retentives might then take the good cause and hoot at the
>Hoban intabulation in which he did exactly the same thing. Not for the
>purpose of leaving out the pesky f# of course, but for the purpose of
>making the piece playable on the lute. Dick Hoban was perfectly
>justified in making his changes and I have no problem with them. Some
>of Chilesotti's transcriptions are not playable as notated. Not on the
>lute and certainly not on the guitar.
>
Sounds like a good reason to work from the original manuscript.
>As for the f# thing, most of the time it really makes things a lot
>easier. But there are some pieces, mostly those that are in G major,
>where it doesn't make a difference, and actually easier with (3) = G.
>It also depend on the texture. I played the Saltarelo at the very
>beginning of my guitar career some 45 years ago, in standard tuning,
>(6) in D of course. Now that I have the Italiana, same damn tune as
>you pointed out (but without any slurs), I can still play it the same
>way. The third string is hardly used and it makes no difference how it
>is tuned.
>
Sometimes it works out that way. Other times it doesn't. As a
general rule, I encourage guitarists to lower that 3rd and use the
original tablatures whenever they are available. It saves a lot of
time worrying about what is or is not missing or what position to play
in.
I think just about everybody has played that Saltarello, or Italiana
or whatever at some time in their guitar life........with or without
slurs. Makes a nice showy piece when combined with some others. I
think I saw the 5 or 6 Chilesotti transcriptions referred to as a
"suite" somewhere.
OK by me. What ever floats your boat or blows your hair back.
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>>Same anal-retentives might then take the good cause and hoot at the
>>Hoban intabulation in which he did exactly the same thing. Not for the
>>purpose of leaving out the pesky f# of course, but for the purpose of
>>making the piece playable on the lute. Dick Hoban was perfectly
>>justified in making his changes and I have no problem with them. Some
>>of Chilesotti's transcriptions are not playable as notated. Not on the
>>lute and certainly not on the guitar.
>>
>Sounds like a good reason to work from the original manuscript.
Unfortunately, this manuscript is not known to exist. Arthur keeps
saying that it was found and is now being kept in a private collection
by a family in Northern Italy that does not allow access to it. If he
is right, then the manuscript is just as good as not existing. It
serves no useful purpose by being hidden. The funny part of this is
that this bit of gossip, which Arthur is either unwilling or unable to
provide any details on (name of the family, address, phone number etc)
is completely unknown to Italian Chilesotti scholars, I talked to a
few of them recently. The latest work on the subject is a book by
Stefano Toffolo which I reviewed for the English Lute Society
newsletter last year. Not only Toffolo is a leading Italian
musicologist, he is also related to the descendants of Chilesotti. He
said nothing about this in his book.
> As a
>general rule, I encourage guitarists to lower that 3rd and use the
>original tablatures whenever they are available. It saves a lot of
>time worrying about what is or is not missing or what position to play
>in.
It sure does. But the fact of the matter is that guitarists on the
whole are just as reluctant to play from tablature as lutenists are
reluctant to play from pitch notation. It's almost a physical law:
Two parallel lines shall never meet.
>OK by me. What ever floats your boat or blows your hair back.
What hair?
ajn
wrote:
>no_sp...@compuserve.com (Schierle ofer Hierle) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:49:20 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>You will note that Dick Hoban thanks me for providing that
>>information.
> and the mere fact that you have never
>published the results of your research into the Tappert papers in a
>refreed journal, is preventing even you to look up what you have
>written before.
You are database challenged, aren't you? Some of my Tappert research
is published in a collection of essays presented to my teacher Martin
Bernstein to honor him on his 80th (or whatever) birthday. And lots
more was used by Dick Hoban.
Alas, Dick didn't quote any of the dirty jokes that are scattered
through the manuscript Lauten-Buch. But I think they'll get published
in a collagues article on student lute books of the 16th century.
(They're really not very funny.)
>You wish I did. Unfortunately, I did not. Actually, I compiled a long
>list of the changes from the original Chilesotti text Hoban made, and
>it is far larger than the three or four spots where he actually
>footnoted his changes.
Why don't you post some here, so we can test the accuracy of what you
have said. I don't think you can do that, can you?
Just piece number, and measure where Hoban changed the musical text or
simplified it.
Is he not telling the truth when he writes <<Care has been taken in
this edition to remain faithful to Dr. Chilesotti's transcriiption.>>
Lutester
wrote:
>It sure does. But the fact of the matter is that guitarists on the
>whole are just as reluctant to play from tablature as lutenists are
>reluctant to play from pitch notation. It's almost a physical law:
>
>Two parallel lines shall never meet.
I'm not so sure of that at all. It seems that guitarists have tab
books galore nowadays. Tarrega in tablature? Easy Bach in tablature?
Whole web sites are devoted to guitar, including classical guitar,
tablature. Do a google search on "guitar tablature" and just watch
what comes up.
On the other hand, many lute players read routinely from score.
That's particularly true if they are doing any kind of ensemble work
or continuo. Reading the transcribed solo literature is more of a
problem unless they have been brought up in the guitar world first,
and they can pretend to be tuned in "e."
It seems the two parallel lines have the same point of origin.
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>You are database challenged, aren't you?
I am. So what?
> Some of my Tappert research
>is published in a collection of essays presented to my teacher Martin
>Bernstein to honor him on his 80th (or whatever) birthday.
Wonderful. So in my decidedly challenged database abilities, I found
this book, right here at the OSU library:
A Musical offering : essays in honor of Martin Bernstein /
Martin Bernstein; Edward H Clinkscale; Claire Brook
1977, New York : Pendragon Press.
That was a Festschrift in honor of Bernstein's 73rd birthday. (He was
born in 1904). And this is the Table of Contents as it appears on the
OCLC database:
Kauffmann, S. Martin Bernstein, reminiscences and thanks.--Atlas, A.W.
The Accademia degli
Unisoni, a music academy in Renaissance
Perugia.--Bernstein, L.F. Mathieu and Valentin Sohier,
a new pair of Renaissance
Doppelmeister.--Brody, E. Vines in Paris, new light on
twentieth-century
performance practice.--Brofsky, H. J.C.
Bach, G.B. Sammartini, and Padre Martini: a concorso in
Milan in 1762.--Brook, B.S. Music,
musicology, and related disciplines: on perspective and
interconnectedness.--Buelow, G.J. A
lesson in operatic performance practice by Madame Faustina
Bordoni.--Cohen, A. Early French
dictionaries as musical sources.--Ducloux, W. Opera today,
thoughts and observations.--Friedheim, P.
The cosmic introduction in nineteenth-century
music.--Hitchcock, H.W. Charles Ives's
Book of 114 songs.--Karp, T. Interrelationships between
poetic and music form in trouvčre
song.--Kaufmann, H.W. Music for a Favola pastorale
(1554)--LaRue, J. & H. Trade routes and
time lag in the export of late eighteenth-century
opera.--Perle, G. The string quartets of
Béla Bartók.--Picker, M. The motet anthologies of Andrea
Antico.--Reese, G. The opening chant for
a Palestrina Magnificat.--Schwartz, J.L. Opening themes
in opera overtures of Johann Adolf Hasse:
some aspects of thematic structural evolution in the
eighteenth century.--Warner, T.E.
Tromlitz's flute treatise, a neglected source of eighteenth-century
performance practice.--Wolf, E.K.
Authenticity and stylistic evidence in the early symphony, a
conflict in attribution between Richter
and Stamitz.
Somehow this ToC does not contain your name. A detailed search of the
OCLC data base does not bring up any other Festschrift in honor of
Martin Bernstein. So where exactly did you publish this material?
Try again, maybe you'll get it right.
> And lots
>more was used by Dick Hoban.
There is no indication in the Hoban book that the material you
provided comes from any printed source.
>>You wish I did. Unfortunately, I did not. Actually, I compiled a long
>>list of the changes from the original Chilesotti text Hoban made, and
>>it is far larger than the three or four spots where he actually
>>footnoted his changes.
>
>Why don't you post some here, so we can test the accuracy of what you
>have said. I don't think you can do that, can you?
>
>Just piece number, and measure where Hoban changed the musical text or
>simplified it.
OK. Since we have at least one other reader on this NG who can check
this out, I'll post a couple:
No. 51, l'Ottava sfera. Page 54 of the original, bottom line. First
measure, third chord.
original; spelling of the chord is f#, d, f#, a. (last note on first
string fret V.)
Hoban deleted the bass note altogether, and spelled the chord as a
triad of 3/a, 2/h, 1/f.
That would make it (considering third in f#) as spelled: f#, d, a.
There is no indication in the book that a change from the Chilesotti
original has been made here.
Next: No. 77 Courante. (Chilesotti, page 85, top line, measure 3.
first chord).
Hoban deleted the alto voice e, rendering the chord as a triad,
4/c, 2/a, 1/f.
There is no indication in the book that a change from the Chilesotti
original has been made here. There are about 20 other instances in the
Hoban book.
>Is he not telling the truth when he writes <<Care has been taken in
>this edition to remain faithful to Dr. Chilesotti's transcriiption.>>
As I just established, and as can be verified by those who have both
books, he has not told the truth when he so claimed. I told the truth
when I pointed this out and did not lie, and you, unconscionably,
without even bothering to check the evidence, accused me of lying.
I would suggest an apology to me is now in order.
Matanya Ophee
>On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:50:47 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>
>>It sure does. But the fact of the matter is that guitarists on the
>>whole are just as reluctant to play from tablature as lutenists are
>>reluctant to play from pitch notation. It's almost a physical law:
>>
>>Two parallel lines shall never meet.
>
>I'm not so sure of that at all. It seems that guitarists have tab
>books galore nowadays.
A different issue, and a different brand of guitarists. We are talking
about classical guitarists approaching _lute_ tablature.
>On the other hand, many lute players read routinely from score.
>That's particularly true if they are doing any kind of ensemble work
>or continuo. Reading the transcribed solo literature is more of a
>problem unless they have been brought up in the guitar world first,
>and they can pretend to be tuned in "e."
Yet, the very phenomenon of Dick Hoban, with the direct assistance of
Arthur Ness, doing an intabulation of a book that only exists in pitch
notation, and as Arthur claims, is being sold like hotcakes, would
indicate that there is a market for such intabulations. Otherwise, the
original Forni edition would probably be still in print.
As for pretending that the lute is tuned in e when reading single
staff pitch notation, I see no problem with that. When guitarists put
a capo on the third fret and pretend they have a cognate instrument
with a lute, they do exactly the same thing.
Clarinet players, and our resident clarinet player could affirm that,
play all the time in a transposition interval. Besides, the nominal G
pitch of the ren. lute can be anything, when you consider that a=440
is a standard that came into being only in 1920.
So I think it does not matter how the piece is _notated._ What matters
is how it sounds. You can play Chilesotti directly on your lute, by
accepting what _he_ said he did: use the major sixth interval, instead
of the octave, per facilità di transcrizioni e di notatzione [for
easier transcription or notation]. His book is clearly intended for a
7 course double strung lute, NOT for the guitar.
And once you got comfortable with this way of reading lute music, you
can try Albeniz, Villa-Lobos, tango music, anything. Have fun!
>It seems the two parallel lines have the same point of origin.
I can't argue with the point of origin, but the two parallel lines are
very much in evidence.
ajn
>wrote:
>> and the mere fact that you have never
>>published the results of your research into the Tappert papers in a
>>refreed journal, is preventing even you to look up what you have
>>written before.
>
Oh yes, in addtion to the article in the Bernstein Festschrift, more
of it is in the catalogue of lute manuiscripts now being published in
parts under the direction of Chr. Meyer, et al., and even John Ward
published a piece I found in the Tappert Papers, called "A fantastic
fantasia from England."
My paper for Bernsterin was for his 80th or 85th nirthday. You cite
the wrong Festschrift which was probably for his 70th bithday, but
those things always take longer than expected, and so 1977 may indeed
be the date.
In any eveny, the article did not deal with the Codice Lauten-Buch,
but rather Tappert's relationship with Wagner (they were intimate
friends) and Tappert and Bach. Martin Bernstein's two great passions
as a teacher were Bach and Wagnerm, and i was a joy and proviledge to
study Bach in his seminars. Never took his Wagner seminar, alas.
Hoban left out lots of things, and I am glad he did not put my name on
the Index that is published at the end of his edition.
ajn
arthur ness
wrote:
>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:50:47 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>>wrote:
>
>Yet, the very phenomenon of Dick Hoban, with the direct assistance of
>Arthur Ness,
I wish you would tell the truth. I simply gave Hoban all my materials
on the Codice Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best. I did
not want to appear to muscle in on _his_ project. And you've known
that for a very long time, Matanya.
>Otherwise, the
>original Forni edition would probably be still in print.
Yes, the impact of Hoban's work is being felt all over the world. But
for guitar players, apparently Forni will soon have it back in print.
>
>So I think it does not matter how the piece is _notated._ What matters
>is how it sounds.
The standard tuning of the lute used for centuries is predominantly G.
That is how lutenists think of their instrument. And that is the
pitch to which most tune their lutes. Occassionally other tunings
occur, but NEVER E. That tuning is beyond the ken of a 16th- or
17th-century lutenist. And it is out of tune. Of all possible tunings
(and Praetorius gives them for all the various sized lutes) E is NOT
one that has ever been used.
Matanya thinks everyone is out of step except himself. Why don't you
publish some violin music with the instrument tuned in E, too. They
could play togther. Don't you know anything about open strings.
>You can play Chilesotti directly on your lute, by
>accepting what _he_ said he did: use the major sixth interval, instead
>of the octave, per facilità di transcrizioni e di notatzione [for
>easier transcription or notation]. His book is clearly intended for a
>7 course double strung lute, NOT for the guitar.
Nope it is for the guitar, that's why so many guitar plaers own it.
And 2/3rds of the pieces (67 out of 100), that is "most" of the
pieces, are for six-string instrument in E, that is, the guitar or a
guitar-lute (lutar, Wagner-Laute, whatever). This business about a
lute in E is just a lot of hype.
>
You will not get very far with lutenists by foisting guitar music on
them and calling it lute music.
Troy Donaghue III
Re: Five pieces from the renaissance?
Group: rec.music.classical.guitar Date: Wed, Sep 18, 2002, 2:34am
(EDT+4) From: phillipsm...@attbi.com (PMS)
Welcome back Troy. I missed you. Did you get my email?
s.
No I didn't and like I said I am in a relationship right now so please
back off!!
Troy III
--
Phillips Music Studio
Columbiaguitar
Run to your capo clutching Bostonian!!
Troy Donaghue III
Troy III
Re: Five pieces from the renaissance?
Group: rec.music.classical.guitar Date: Sun, Sep 22, 2002, 1:38am
(EDT+4) From: columbi...@aol.com (Columbiaguitar)
Matanya Ophee
>My paper for Bernsterin was for his 80th or 85th nirthday. You cite
>the wrong Festschrift which was probably for his 70th bithday, but
>those things always take longer than expected, and so 1977 may indeed
>be the date.
Since I am so data base challenged, and since the OCLC does not list
any other Festschrift for Bernstein other then the 1977 one, can you
please tell me who published is, what is the title and who was the
editor?
If I cannot locate an article you said you published, there is no way
for me to read what you said.
>
>In any eveny, the article did not deal with the Codice Lauten-Buch,
>but rather Tappert's relationship with Wagner (they were intimate
>friends) and Tappert and Bach.
In other words, when you said that:
> Some of my Tappert research
>is published in a collection of essays presented to my teacher Martin
>Bernstein to honor him on his 80th (or whatever) birthday. And lots
>more was used by Dick Hoban.
You falsely insinuated that your Bernstein article did in fact deal
with Da Un Codice. Or in other words, there are only two sources for
your information on Schierle-Hierle: the Hoban book and your postings
here and the lute list. So what is the name now? it is Hierle or is it
Scheirle?
No, it neither. It's Shirely, you scheisser.
>Hoban left out lots of things, and I am glad he did not put my name on
>the Index that is published at the end of his edition.
why, is it that bad?
Matanya Ophee
>On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:57:55 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 21 Sep 2002 01:50:47 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>Yet, the very phenomenon of Dick Hoban, with the direct assistance of
>>Arthur Ness,
>
>I wish you would tell the truth. I simply gave Hoban all my materials
>on the Codice Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best. I did
>not want to appear to muscle in on _his_ project. And you've known
>that for a very long time, Matanya.
I have? news for me. All I know is what you said about it, and what is
printed in the book. If giving Hoban all you materials on the Codice
Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best is not a direct
assistance, I wonder what is.
>The standard tuning of the lute used for centuries is predominantly G.
>That is how lutenists think of their instrument. And that is the
>pitch to which most tune their lutes. Occassionally other tunings
>occur, but NEVER E.
I don't suppose you would like me to repost here the extended thread
on lutes in E from the lute list, would you? It appears that some of
your lute colleagues, including some high powered members of the lute
society, have different ideas on the subject.
> That tuning is beyond the ken of a 16th- or
>17th-century lutenist. And it is out of tune. Of all possible tunings
>(and Praetorius gives them for all the various sized lutes) E is NOT
>one that has ever been used.
Tell me then, what is the exact pitch of a lute in G when A=375"
What is it when A=400, or 415?
Apparently you forgot something from your clarinet playing days that
there is a difference between the music notated, and the music
sounded.
>Matanya thinks everyone is out of step except himself. Why don't you
>publish some violin music with the instrument tuned in E, too. They
>could play togther. Don't you know anything about open strings.
>
>>You can play Chilesotti directly on your lute, by
>>accepting what _he_ said he did: use the major sixth interval, instead
>>of the octave, per facilità di transcrizioni e di notatzione [for
>>easier transcription or notation]. His book is clearly intended for a
>>7 course double strung lute, NOT for the guitar.
>
>Nope it is for the guitar, that's why so many guitar plaers own it.
If you say so, it is obvious you have never read Chilesotti's preface.
The number of guitar players who own it is besides the point. What
matters, when we discuss the intentions of the transcriber, is
what_he_ said about it.
[snip]
>You will not get very far with lutenists by foisting guitar music on
>them and calling it lute music.
You mean to say that the _music_ in Da Un Codice is not lute music?
Besides, I have no intention of getting anywhere with lutenists. Not
my market. I am doing just fine, fuck you very much, with guitarists.
PGS
forth from the womb. pms is most certainly a blessing with company like
yours, toadier than we. or is that tom can't pee? trim the tree?
wait...oh yes, todd the flea. no, oh shucks. well, it's not important
anyway.
thankfully there are signs up in the barnyard that warn upon entrance
that trolls have been known to throw their own feces at the onlookers.
and you all thought that only happened at the san diego zoo.
tsk-tsk-tsk.
remember to duck.
s.
Troy Donaghue III wrote:
--
Phillips Guitar Studio
P.O. Box 836
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
Troy Donaghue III
I don't know what I said or did that made you feel this way but I will
try not to do it again. You are a ray of sunshine that shines upon this
group and causes illumination to appear in the form of light. I hope
you accept this apology and we continue to be the best of friends. If I
ever go to Maine in the fall to watch the trees (which probably won't
happen because I think that's kind of nerdy), I will be thinking of you
and your pleasant way of adding conversation to the discussions here. I
have learned a great deal about playing guitar from your posts and look
forward to reading them.
Troy III
"yes, i bet your mother wishes she had kept bleeding after you sprang
forth from the womb. pms is most certainly a blessing with company like
yours, toadier than we. or is that tom can't pee? trim the tree?
wait...oh yes, todd the flea. no, oh shucks. well, it's not important
anyway.
thankfully there are signs up in the barnyard that warn upon entrance
that trolls have been known to throw their own feces at the onlookers.
and you all thought that only happened at the san diego zoo.
tsk-tsk-tsk.
remember to duck."
s.
Phillips Massage Studio
P.O. Box 826
Boston, MA 02103-0836
p...@attbi.com
ajn
wrote:
>no_sp...@compuserve.com (ajn) wrote:
>
>> Some of my Tappert research
>>is published in a collection of essays presented to my teacher Martin
>>Bernstein to honor him on his 80th (or whatever) birthday. And lots
>>more was used by Dick Hoban.
Yes, it would have been his 80th birthday. Also Tim Crawford read the
paper before I submitted it, and mentioned it when he introduced me
and a paper I read at the International Weiss Conference in Freiburg.
It was on Joh. Freidr. Daube (aka on rmcg as Johnny Dove, P.I.).
>
>You falsely insinuated that your Bernstein article did in fact deal
>with Da Un Codice.
I did not insiuate any such thing.
At the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek in Berlin are six large boxes with
Tappert's lute research papers. (There are surely 100 boxes in all.)
The Codice Lauten-Buch information is in one small booklet.
My article in the Bernstein Festschrift deals with Tappert's
relationsjip with Wagner, and Tappert's ownership of an important lute
manuscript by one of Bach's lutenists. Bernstein's great passions
were Wagner and Bach, and it was a great privilledge to attend
Bernstein's Bach seminars. Alas I didn't take his Wagner's courses.
Ophee just asked why none of my Tappert materials were published. In
addfition, a fantasia fantastica copied out by Tappert was published
by John Ward in one of his articles. (Without crediting me--but
that's par for the course with John.) Material is also being used in
the important inventory of lute manuscripts now being brought out
serially by Christian Meyer and his associates in Strassbourg.
<<snip>>
>>Hoban left out lots of things, and I am glad he did not put my name on
>>the Index that is published at the end of his edition.
>
>why, is it that bad?
>
It is not bad, it is a very good Index. No one else has that
information. I've already explained that. Can't you read, Orphee?
Hoban sometimes makes spelling mistakes, and doesn't cite the sources
for the Tappert information. Nor does he use everything that I turned
over to him, including the dirty jokes that the lutenist scribbled in
the margins.in his Codice Lauten-Buch. He also doesn't say which of
the _tablatures_ he published come from copies made ffrom the original
Lautn-Buch by Tappert, and from concordant printed tablatures, rather
than Chilesotti's guitar transcriptions. (I've read the preface, and
you misrepresent what it says and what Chilesotti did. Most of the
pieces are for SIX-course instrument)
ajn
Matanya Ophee
[the whole thing snipped]
It doesn't really matter what ajn wrote, since there is no possible
way to communicate with him in any rational manner.
I said that Hoban changed Chilesotti's music without saying so.
You accused me of lying and demanded proof.
I provided the proof and suggested that perhaps you ought to
apologize.
If you don't have the cojones to admit that you were wrong to accuse
me of lying, perhaps you can find it in yourself to confirm that the
examples I provided were a correct representation of Hoban book?
I doubt it, frankly.
praetorius
wrote:
>>I wish you would tell the truth. I simply gave Hoban all my materials
>>on the Codice Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best. I did
>>not want to appear to muscle in on _his_ project. And you've known
>>that for a very long time, Matanya.
>
>I have? news for me. All I know is what you said about it, and what is
>printed in the book. If giving Hoban all you materials on the Codice
>Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best is not a direct
>assistance, I wonder what is.
I gave him materials which he used in the Index to his book,. Five
pages out of 188. It is Dick Hoban's work and he should get full
credit for doing such an exemplary tablature edtion.
>
>>The standard tuning of the lute used for centuries is predominantly G.
>>That is how lutenists think of their instrument. And that is the
>>pitch to which most tune their lutes. Occassionally other tunings
>>and HIP pitches are used, but NEVER E. The instrument will not be in tune.
>
>I don't suppose you would like me to repost here the extended thread
>on lutes in E from the lute list, would you?
All you did with that thread, is give everyone a good laugh.
>It appears that some of
>your lute colleagues, including some high powered members of the lute
>society, have different ideas on the subject.
>
The Lute Society is endorsing E-tuning for the lute? That'll be the
day. I might be considered a "high-powered member" of the Lute
Society (UK), too, and nobody asked me about such a stupid idea.
Hell, there hasn't been an internationalconference on the lute in the
past 25 years to which I have not attended and been invited to read a
paper, all expenses paid by the sponsor: Utrecht (STIMU), Tours
(CNRS), Cleveland (AMS), Freiburg (Akademie Weiss), Milan (Fodella
Foundation), Aquila (Abruzzian Institute for Music History).
Didn't make it to Paris. I turned down the invitation when I learned
Ophee would be there. Didn't want to get beat up. He claims to have
read a paper there, but none is published in the Conference Report. I
don't even see his name in the Report. Maybe he had a booth selling
his editions.
>> That tuning is beyond the ken of a 16th- or
>>17th-century lutenist. And it is out of tune. Of all possible tunings
>>(and Praetorius gives them for all the various sized lutes) E is NOT
>>one that has ever been used.
>
>Tell me then, what is the exact pitch of a lute in G when A=375"
>
>What is it when A=400, or 415?
>
You don't know what you are talking about. And I'm not going to,take
the time to explain it to you. You wouldn't underestand anything I
might say, anyway. A lute in E has never been, and would be out of
tune with itself. Just for starters.
>Apparently you forgot something from your clarinet playing days that
>there is a difference between the music notated, and the music
>sounded.
>
Are you proposing the lute be treated as a transposing instrument?
How will it work? Written as if tuned in E like a guitar sounding a
minor third higher in G? That would be a lute in E flat. Or written in
G as has always been the case with the Renaissance instrument, and
then sounding in E? That would be Lute in A.
Which do you propose? Lute in A? Or Lute in E flat? Are saying that
"high-powered" members of the Lute Society (UK) agree with something
screwy like that?
I think you should look at the books and articles on the subject by
John M. Ward (in JLSA), Mark Lindley (temperaments), Praetorius
(Syntagma of 1603), Mendel with Ellis (history of pitch), and when you
have mastered that material, then perhaps it might be possible to
discuss the matter with you. Until then, ...
<<snip>>
>>Matanya thinks everyone is out of step except himself. Why don't you
>>publish some violin music with the instrument tuned in E, too. They
>>could play togther. Don't you know anything about open strings.
>
>>You will not get very far with lutenists by foisting guitar music on
>>them and calling it lute music.
>
>You mean to say that the _music_ in Da Un Codice is not lute music?
>
Chilesotti published music from a German lute book transcibing it for
guitar or a hybred instrument called a Galute, Guitar-Lute, Lutar,
Wagner-Laute, etc., but not for the LUTE. The standard tuning for the
Renaissance lute for the past 500 years has usually been G. As a
non-transposing instrument (Lute in C).
Do you think some "high-powered" persons in the GFA would advocate
changing the tuning of the modern classical guitar to, say G to make
amends for what you would do to the ;lute? That would be Guitar in
E_flat.
>Matanya Ophee
ajn
Matanya Ophee
>On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 03:15:35 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
>wrote:
>
>>>I wish you would tell the truth. I simply gave Hoban all my materials
>>>on the Codice Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best. I did
>>>not want to appear to muscle in on _his_ project. And you've known
>>>that for a very long time, Matanya.
>>
>>I have? news for me. All I know is what you said about it, and what is
>>printed in the book. If giving Hoban all you materials on the Codice
>>Lauetn-Buch for him to use as he thought best is not a direct
>>assistance, I wonder what is.
>
>I gave him materials which he used in the Index to his book,.
And that was not a direct assistance?
>>>The standard tuning of the lute used for centuries is predominantly G.
>>>That is how lutenists think of their instrument. And that is the
>>>pitch to which most tune their lutes. Occassionally other tunings
>>>and HIP pitches are used, but NEVER E. The instrument will not be in tune.
>>
>>I don't suppose you would like me to repost here the extended thread
>>on lutes in E from the lute list, would you?
>
>All you did with that thread, is give everyone a good laugh.
Yes, of course. Here is one good laugh:
At 11:41 AM 2/21/2002 +0100, ferengizâde danięl shawqy <r...@recout.de>
wrote:
There are many historic lutes with about 66cm string stop; those would
have been tuned at what today (@ 440 Hz) is called E; a lute with 74cm
string stop (like my V&A Maler) would have been tuned in E at the
historic pitch of about 392 Hz. Judged by extant flutes and other
evidence gathered by Seegerman, the French chamber tone once was about
a minor third lower than today; hence a "lute in E" would have been
tuned at nominally G playing in consort with other instruments.
There are many more historic lutes extant with such longer string
stops than those which coincide with anything we could call G today.
Shirley Rumsey used a lute "in E" for some song accompaniment and
Herringman has not been tarred and feathered yet for using one with
Musica Antiqua London.
Here is another good laugh at me:
X-Sender: edma...@pop.chartermi.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:15:18 -0600
To: Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
From: Edward Martin <edma...@chartermi.net>
Subject: Re: Gerwig / Cerha
Yes, there has been some discussion about lutes in E. I am very
immersed in the lute world as you know, and you are correct that it
seems most renaissance lutes these days are in g. But, many of us
have different sized & pitched lutes, & we have no problem playing
different lutes at different pitches. Last summer, I taught at SFEMS,
& we did an ensemble for 4 lutes & 4 vocalists of some Dutch pieces,
namely "Als ick u vinde" & "O Vilanella". The lute ensemble called
for lutes in D, E, g, & a. It was a wonderful sound - one fellow has
a lute in f, which he dropped a tone to E to complete the ensemble.
Without that E lute, it sounded empty.
Also, Nigel North has a CD out of Dowland's Variety of Lute Lessons,
in which he uses a 9 course lute in E. His reasons for using this
type of instrument is because most of the surviving lutes of that
period are larger lutes, in which the appropriate pitch is a E. I am
guessing that the mensur is around 68 cm, but I do not know. It
sounds like a bigger lute. I encourage you to get this CD - it has a
wonderful, rich sound! You will like it in E.
I am under the impression that most of the 10 course lutes from the
period are around 68 cm in mensur, (most extant museum lutes are that
size) which in gut it has a maximum pitch of E. So, I think it was
much more commonplace that usual practice these days dictates.
So, I do not think we are so bent on G lutes - I use them mostly,
because a smaller lute is easier to play. But, I also have a bass
lute in D, an alto in a, and a descant (soprano) in high d.
End of quotes fro the lute list. Are you still laughing?
>Didn't make it to Paris. I turned down the invitation when I learned
>Ophee would be there. Didn't want to get beat up. He claims to have
>read a paper there, but none is published in the Conference Report. I
>don't even see his name in the Report.
Look again. Acknowledgement page. My paper is not the only one that
did not make it into the so-called report. Chris Goodwin's paper, and
several others, did not make it either, and none of the round table
discussions made it. In any case, my paper will be published shortly
in an important referred journal. You can count on that.
> Maybe he had a booth selling
>his editions.
I wish they allowed such things.
>
>>> That tuning is beyond the ken of a 16th- or
>>>17th-century lutenist. And it is out of tune. Of all possible tunings
>>>(and Praetorius gives them for all the various sized lutes) E is NOT
>>>one that has ever been used.
>>
>>Tell me then, what is the exact pitch of a lute in G when A=375"
>>
>>What is it when A=400, or 415?
>>
>You don't know what you are talking about. And I'm not going to,take
>the time to explain it to you. You wouldn't underestand anything I
>might say, anyway. A lute in E has never been, and would be out of
>tune with itself. Just for starters.
Makes perfect sense, don't it?
>
>>Apparently you forgot something from your clarinet playing days that
>>there is a difference between the music notated, and the music
>>sounded.
>>
>Are you proposing the lute be treated as a transposing instrument?
>How will it work? Written as if tuned in E like a guitar sounding a
>minor third higher in G?
Going in the wrong direction, buddy. Since you are not a guitarist,
and never have been, you do not know that the guitar sounds an octave
lower than written. So the interval between the E of the guitar and
the G of the lute is a major sixth, not a minor third. Chilesotti
specifically said that:
"...per facilitŕ di trascrizioni e di notazione, suppong che
l'accordatura sia [musical example of the pitch is given) 1 tono, cioč
č spostato alla sesta maggiore..."
Let me know if you need help with the Italian here.
> That would be a lute in E flat. Or written in
>G as has always been the case with the Renaissance instrument, and
>then sounding in E? That would be Lute in A.
You just flunked music theory 101.
>>You mean to say that the _music_ in Da Un Codice is not lute music?
>>
>Chilesotti published music from a German lute book transcibing it for
>guitar or a hybred instrument called a Galute, Guitar-Lute, Lutar,
>Wagner-Laute, etc., but not for the LUTE.
Again a proof that you have not read his preface.
> The standard tuning for the
>Renaissance lute for the past 500 years has usually been G. As a
>non-transposing instrument (Lute in C).
>
>Do you think some "high-powered" persons in the GFA would advocate
>changing the tuning of the modern classical guitar to, say G to make
>amends for what you would do to the ;lute? That would be Guitar in
>E_flat.
It's done all the time, but you wouldn't know about it. Ever heard of
Koyunbaba?
Lutester
(praetorius) wrote:
>>
>The Lute Society is endorsing E-tuning for the lute? That'll be the
>day. I might be considered a "high-powered member" of the Lute
>Society (UK), too, and nobody asked me about such a stupid idea.
The real Praetorius mentions the following tunings for various kinds
of lute:
Small octave Lute: D or C
Small descant Lute: B
Descant Lute: A
Choir or alto Lute: G
Tenor Lute: E
Bass Lute: D
Large octave bass Lute: G
The pitch designation refers to the highest string tuning.
I have a nice 7 ch renaissance lute with a 67cm scale length that
sounds like thin, whiney crap unless it is strung for E. I also have
a nice Andy Rutherford 10ch (now an 11 ch) with a 69cm scale that came
strung for E also. As a baroque lute I keep it in "old pitch"
tuning.
I also have a really great old ebony 13ch Edlinger baroque lute with a
76cm scale length that just is not happy unless it is strung for and
tuned to Cmin. It sounds nice and deep and dark and happy. At
nominal Dmin it bent the neck and broke the top course with some
regularity
I have played with descant, alto, tenor, and bass lutes in ensembles
at a number of lute society seminars. All were at different pitches.
I would have expected that anyone considered a "high powered member"
of any lute society would know that lutes of various sizes are tuned
at various pitches. When you can say"all lutes are the same size,"
then you can say "all lutes are tuned to the same pitch." It ain't
rocket science, guys.
The bottom line: a guitar with the third at f# would be the same as a
tenor lute. So what is all this other bullshit about?
Maybe Pretorius should spend some time reading his own stuff?
Robert
Matanya Ophee
>The bottom line: a guitar with the third at f# would be the same as a
>tenor lute. So what is all this other bullshit about?
Should be clear by now that it is not about the lute, it is not about
the guitar. It is about discrediting MO at every single opportunity.
Poor Arthus Ness. He can't help himself.