ancient airs and dances

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Greg Silverman

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Dec 27, 2001, 2:30:15 PM12/27/01
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Am wondering if any of the pieces that Ottorino Respighi used for his 3
suites of Ancient Airs and Dances have ever been transcribed for CG, and
if so, if the transcribed scores are availble?

TIA
Greg--

Matanya Ophee

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Dec 27, 2001, 4:04:03 PM12/27/01
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Greg Silverman <g...@umn.edu> wrote:

Resphigi obtained his tunes from a book of transcriptions published in
1890 by Oscar Chilesotti of a manuscript that is not known to exist.
The Book's name was Da Un Codice, (From a Codex). Chilestti's method
of transcription was for a 7 course _lute_, in pitch notation, but
transcribed _as if_ for guitar, wtih a nominal tuning of E. See my
article in GALI on the History of Transcriptions of Lute Tablatures.

http://www.orphee.com/trans/trans.html

The transcriptions are almost playable on the guitar, most of the time
anyway. The book was available in facsimile from Forni in Italy, but
it is now out of print. You might find it in major music libraries.
All that is available are the Six Dances from the Renaissance
available in several editions.


Matanya Ophee
Editions Orphe'e, Inc.,
1240 Clubview Blvd. N.
Columbus, OH 43235-1226
614-846-9517
fax: 614-846-9794
http://www.orphee.com

Greg Silverman

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Dec 27, 2001, 3:49:01 PM12/27/01
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Matanya Ophee wrote:

>Greg Silverman <g...@umn.edu> wrote:
>
>>Am wondering if any of the pieces that Ottorino Respighi used for his 3
>>suites of Ancient Airs and Dances have ever been transcribed for CG, and
>>if so, if the transcribed scores are availble?
>>
>Resphigi obtained his tunes from a book of transcriptions published in
>1890 by Oscar Chilesotti of a manuscript that is not known to exist.
>The Book's name was Da Un Codice, (From a Codex). Chilestti's method
>of transcription was for a 7 course _lute_, in pitch notation, but
>transcribed _as if_ for guitar, wtih a nominal tuning of E. See my
>article in GALI on the History of Transcriptions of Lute Tablatures.
>
>http://www.orphee.com/trans/trans.html
>

Thanks... from a cursory glance, this looks like very interesting
reading (as do all the other articles in GALI)! So much to read, so
little time!

>The transcriptions are almost playable on the guitar, most of the time
>anyway. The book was available in facsimile from Forni in Italy, but
>it is now out of print. You might find it in major music libraries.
>All that is available are the Six Dances from the Renaissance
>available in several editions.
>

I will check the library here at the UofMN... Or hopefully maybe find
the facsimile (or original) in a used bookstore somewhere! :-)

Regards,
Greg--

Stephan Olbertz

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Dec 29, 2001, 5:14:42 AM12/29/01
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Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message news:<7m0n2uk9i273qi7nu...@4ax.com>...

> The transcriptions are almost playable on the guitar, most of the time
> anyway. The book was available in facsimile from Forni in Italy, but
> it is now out of print. You might find it in major music libraries.
> All that is available are the Six Dances from the Renaissance
> available in several editions.

The 99 pieces in Chilesottis book have been retranscribed to tablature
(french) by Dick Hoban. Greg, have a look at
http://www.mclasen.com/lute/lyre/index.html , you can order a copy
there for about 20$. All their books are highly recommended by
e-friends of mine, though I haven't seen them personally (the books).

Best wishes,

Stephan Olbertz

Stephan Olbertz

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Dec 29, 2001, 11:07:23 AM12/29/01
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By the way, I wasn't sure about Respighis source, it seems that he
used more than just Chilesottis "Da un codice...", at least some of
his other publications. Then a CD by Paul O'Dette and others came to
my mind which covers the entire three suites with the original lute,
baroque guitar and small ensemble settings, have a look at
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/details/66228.asp .

Best regards,

Stephan

Matanya Ophee

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Dec 29, 2001, 12:35:27 PM12/29/01
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arci...@lycos.de (Stephan Olbertz) wrote:

>The 99 pieces in Chilesottis book have been retranscribed to tablature
>(french) by Dick Hoban. Greg, have a look at
>http://www.mclasen.com/lute/lyre/index.html , you can order a copy
>there for about 20$. All their books are highly recommended by
>e-friends of mine, though I haven't seen them personally (the books).

I have bought this book. Price must have gone down because I had to
pay $25.- some years back. It is one of those POD productions produced
at Kinko's with spiral binding. I also own one of the few rare copies
of the original 1890 edition, plus many of the 1905 Breitkopf &
Haertel editions of many of the pieces in the book transcribed for a
six string guitar by Heinrich Scherrer.

As for the Hoban book, it is a question of taste. If you prefer lute
tablature which is re-trasncribed from a guitar transcription, with
its not inconsiderable number of misprints, then it would be a good
buy. If you prefer the original transcriptions, in pitch notation,
directly playable on most guitars, and particularly easy on 7-string
guitars, then I suggest you spend the same $20.- on getting xerox
copies from a library someplace.

Greg M. Silverman

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Dec 30, 2001, 7:28:16 PM12/30/01
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Matanya Ophee wrote:

>
> arci...@lycos.de (Stephan Olbertz) wrote:
>
>
> As for the Hoban book, it is a question of taste. If you prefer lute
> tablature which is re-trasncribed from a guitar transcription, with
> its not inconsiderable number of misprints, then it would be a good
> buy. If you prefer the original transcriptions, in pitch notation,
> directly playable on most guitars, and particularly easy on 7-string
> guitars, then I suggest you spend the same $20.- on getting xerox
> copies from a library someplace.

From what you write about the Hoban book, it kind of sounds like the
Real book (the underground jazz fake book of all standards that looks
like it was xeroxed, and is chock full of errors -- AND is quite
illegal!). Speaking of xeroxing
the original Chilesottis: if I _do_ find a copy... I assume it is kosher
to do so, especially since it is no longer in print? Does any publisher
still own the rights to this and if so, why don't they print the darned
thing (a rhetorical question, of course!)?

So many decisions to be made... such as: do I REALLY wish to learn lute
tab? Hmmm, it may be an interesting exercise! Well, I do love the suites
by Respighi and would love to learn anything that _is_ available, so I
guess we shall see if I can first track down the original transcriptions
at the university here, but if all else fails, I will take the tab
route...

Thanks again!
Greg--

Matanya Ophee

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Dec 30, 2001, 10:32:12 PM12/30/01
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"Greg M. Silverman" <g...@cccs.umn.edu> wrote:

>Speaking of xeroxing
>the original Chilesottis: if I _do_ find a copy... I assume it is kosher
>to do so, especially since it is no longer in print?

It was published in 1890. For all practical purposes it is in the
public domain, so if you find a copy, it would be OK to xerox it.

> Does any publisher
>still own the rights to this and if so, why don't they print the darned
>thing (a rhetorical question, of course!)?

Public domain means no one owns the rights. I could, for example,
produce a facsimile of my copy and sell it. I have an original edition
and I can do a much better facsimile than the one done by Forni some
20 years ago. But, how many copies could I sell to justify the
expense? 3? 4?

>So many decisions to be made... such as: do I REALLY wish to learn lute
>tab? Hmmm, it may be an interesting exercise!

It is no different than regular guitar tab, except that in French
tablature, the one most used today, they use letters instead of
numbers. It is no big deal to learn it

> Well, I do love the suites
>by Respighi and would love to learn anything that _is_ available, so I
>guess we shall see if I can first track down the original transcriptions
>at the university here,

If they don't have it, ask the librarian to locate a copy elsewhere
via OCLC, and have it sent to you by InterLibrary Loan.

Greg M. Silverman

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Dec 30, 2001, 8:56:01 PM12/30/01
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Matanya Ophee wrote:
>
> "Greg M. Silverman" <g...@cccs.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> >Speaking of xeroxing
> >the original Chilesottis: if I _do_ find a copy... I assume it is kosher
> >to do so, especially since it is no longer in print?
>
> It was published in 1890. For all practical purposes it is in the
> public domain, so if you find a copy, it would be OK to xerox it.

Well... okay... just as long as one of the librarians don't handcuff me
while I am in the process of doing so! :-)

>
> > Does any publisher
> >still own the rights to this and if so, why don't they print the darned
> >thing (a rhetorical question, of course!)?
>
> Public domain means no one owns the rights. I could, for example,
> produce a facsimile of my copy and sell it. I have an original edition
> and I can do a much better facsimile than the one done by Forni some
> 20 years ago. But, how many copies could I sell to justify the
> expense? 3? 4?

I am sure it would be the hottest selling book in years! :-)

>
> >So many decisions to be made... such as: do I REALLY wish to learn lute
> >tab? Hmmm, it may be an interesting exercise!
>
> It is no different than regular guitar tab, except that in French
> tablature, the one most used today, they use letters instead of
> numbers. It is no big deal to learn it
>

Tab... oh my God! I haven't looked at tab in years (perhaps 20 or
so?)... Actually, that is a lie, I got the book of Jose Marin's Tonos,
and the tab actually complements the written score... so, there is
_some_ utility for tablature!


> > Well, I do love the suites
> >by Respighi and would love to learn anything that _is_ available, so I
> >guess we shall see if I can first track down the original transcriptions
> >at the university here,
>
> If they don't have it, ask the librarian to locate a copy elsewhere
> via OCLC, and have it sent to you by InterLibrary Loan.

That would indeed work!

Cheers, and thanks again!
Greg--

Lutemann

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Dec 31, 2001, 9:36:06 AM12/31/01
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In article <3C2FB120...@cccs.umn.edu>, "Greg M. Silverman"
<g...@cccs.umn.edu> writes:

>So many decisions to be made... such as: do I REALLY wish to learn lute
>tab? Hmmm, it may be an interesting exercise! Well, I do love the suites
>by Respighi and would love to learn anything that _is_ available, so I
>guess we shall see if I can first track down the original transcriptions

French tab is very easy to learn. What is more difficult is to play from two
clefs the way Bream did. I learned how to do this, but I had to write out my
own series of exercises to do it and it took a couple of months before I was
comfortable with it (old dog learning new trick probably held me back). I
took about two weeks for me to get comfortable with French tab. The real
problem is that because the G lute is a minor 3rd higher than the guitar and an
extra course or two are added to the bass, many of the lute pieces just don't
sound right on the guitar.

Kent

Lutester

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Dec 31, 2001, 12:12:18 PM12/31/01
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 03:32:12 GMT, Matanya Ophee <m.o...@orphee.com>
wrote:

>It is no different than regular guitar tab, except that in French
>tablature, the one most used today, they use letters instead of
>numbers. It is no big deal to learn it

Well it's not quite that easy. In Italian lute tab, the 6th course
line is at the top, not the bottom. Spanish vihuela tab uses numbers
like the Italian lute tab, but the 6th course is at the bottom.

French tab and English tab share the same basic layout, but the
letters have different shapes depending on the particular period.

There are also different conventions on right and left hand fingering
and ornaments, but that should not be a concern to one just stating
out.

I agree it's not a big deal to learn, but it does take some time.


Lutester

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Dec 31, 2001, 12:54:38 PM12/31/01
to
Greg Silverman <g...@umn.edu> wrote:

>Am wondering if any of the pieces that Ottorino Respighi used for his 3 suites
>of Ancient Airs and Dances have ever been transcribed for CG, and

>f so, if the transcribed scores are availble?

>TIA
>Greg--

Many/most/all of the pieces were taken from the transcriptions by
Oscar Chillesoti of the Italian tablature. They were published as:

"Da un Codice
Lauten-Buch
del Cinquecento
Trascrizioni in notazione moderna
di
Oscar Chilesotti"
Forni editiore Bologna

It is in modern guitar staff and contains 99 separate pieces.
My copy is dated in pen by me as 1971 and cost about $8 bucks.
It is probably still available from:

DONNA CURRY'S MUSIC (DONNA CURRY)
1780 FORT UNION DR
SANTA FE, NM 87505-7528
tel: 505-989-9350

These things show up in many, many guitar and beginning lute
concerts. The are fairly easy to play and fairly flashy as well.
They also lend themselves to some improvisation.

I would strongly recommend lowering the 3 string a half step and
clamping a capo around the 3 fret to get some semblance of the lute
sound. Most pieces will require lowering the 6th string to D

Good luck to you.

RLC


ajn

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Jan 1, 2002, 8:43:43 AM1/1/02
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Donna Curry has retired. Her successor (who purchased her stock) in
the sale of lute and early guitar music and books is the von Huene
Early Music Workshop in Brookline, MA. Contact Eric Haas at

sa...@vonhuene.com

They offer a special catalogue of lute and early guitar music in
facsimiles, scores and relevant books.

On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:54:38 -0500, Lutester <ses...@erols.com> wrote:
<snip>

>My copy is dated in pen by me as 1971 and cost about $8 bucks.
>It is probably still available from:
>
>DONNA CURRY'S MUSIC (DONNA CURRY)

<snip>

Greg M. Silverman

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Jan 1, 2002, 9:32:49 AM1/1/02
to
ajn wrote:
>
> Donna Curry has retired. Her successor (who purchased her stock) in
> the sale of lute and early guitar music and books is the von Huene
> Early Music Workshop in Brookline, MA. Contact Eric Haas at
>
> sa...@vonhuene.com
>
> They offer a special catalogue of lute and early guitar music in
> facsimiles, scores and relevant books.

Great! Thanks for the information! Will contact Eric ASAP to obtain
this... am looking forward to readsing through this (even with the
retunings and capo and whatnot to compensate for only having a
6-string... hmmm... maybe I should get an 8 or 9 string now as part of
my New Years resolution... na, think I'll master the 6-string first --
which of course will _never_ happen!).


Happy New Year to all!

Greg--

Matanya Ophee

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Jan 1, 2002, 3:20:41 PM1/1/02
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7116...@compuserve.com (ajn) wrote:

>Donna Curry has retired. Her successor (who purchased her stock) in
>the sale of lute and early guitar music and books is the von Huene
>Early Music Workshop in Brookline, MA.

Not entirerly correct, Arthur. Donna Curry transfered all her stock to
The Hungry Monk, a company run by lutenist Hazel Ketchum and
guitrarist John Holenko in Charleston, SC. They ran the company for a
few years and then they themselves went out of this business and
transferred _their_ stock to von Huene. All three of these entities
were dealers who bought lute books from me, when I was still handling
my own sales.

As to the question whether von Huene has any copies of the Forni
facsimile of the Chilesotti book for sale, I frankly doubt it very
much. The most reliable and best informed dealer in facsimiles is:

OMI (Old Manuscripts and Incunabula), PO Box 6019 FDR Station, New
York, NY
01051 USA
Tel: (++1) (212) 758 1946. Fax: (++1) (212) 593 6186. Email:
imm...@panix.com

It was Steven Immel who informed me that the Forni edition is out of
print. If that situation has changed since, then he would be the best
person to obtain it.

Richard Yates

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Jan 1, 2002, 3:07:47 PM1/1/02
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Also: http://www.utorpheus.com/libreria.shtml has Chilesotti facsimiles

--
Richard Yates
Free music to download at:
http://www.YatesGuitar.com

"Matanya Ophee" <m.o...@orphee.com> wrote in message

news:rq343u8ubjqg1jkr5...@4ax.com...

Matanya Ophee

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Jan 1, 2002, 5:01:48 PM1/1/02
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"Richard Yates" <Ric...@YatesGuitar.com> wrote:

>Also: http://www.utorpheus.com/libreria.shtml has Chilesotti facsimiles

That's good Richard. Thanks. I found there one book I have been
looking for a long time now. I'll be sure to pick it up when I see
these guys at the Frankfurt Musik messe. But unfortunately they do not
list the book under discussion, the 1890 Da Un Codice, which means
that my suspicion that it is out of print is still correct.

Arthur Fossum

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Jan 2, 2002, 4:01:27 PM1/2/02
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The Passacaglia from suite 3, is originally by Roncalli and you can find it
in Noad's Baroque Guitar Anthology.

-Arthur


Greg Silverman

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Jan 2, 2002, 4:05:04 PM1/2/02
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Arthur Fossum wrote:

>The Passacaglia from suite 3, is originally by Roncalli and you can find it
>in Noad's Baroque Guitar Anthology.
>

Cool! I have been meaning to get this book for some time -- I have his
Renaissance Guitar Anthology and absolutely love it!

Thanks!
Greg--

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