Stockhausen KURTEN course
Nigel Curtis
Thank = Nigel
Rod Stasick
> So - any good gossip or info from the course which I think is now finishing..?
>
> Thank = Nigel
I'm in München right now and don't have much time to say much, but you
may want to know that Luziferium (sp?) should be finished in November.
If I remember correctly, it is to be for 9 trombonists and, I think,
3(?) percussionists and may or IS to be performed simultaneous with
the complete Sonntag - in the foyer probably, and yes, during the
complete Sonntag, so it is many hours in length. Sorry about the
sketchy details, but I have to check my notes when I get home later
this month. Also, there is talk of staging the complete Licht in Essen
in 2010, but it is too early for complete news on this - Essen needs
and wants to come up with fundraising schemes for this...
Rod
J.B.L.
>in 2010, but it is too early for complete news on this -
That is an _incredible_ undertaking. I hope they can attain to it, but when one
considers the astronomical production aspects - not only cash - well, it can
only happen if the hand of GOD is in it, essentially!
I was just considering today (having listened to Lichter-Wasser last night) if
LICHT could even be performed in the space of 7 days...
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Jerry Kohl
> > Also, there is talk of staging the complete Licht in Essen
> >in 2010, but it is too early for complete news on this -
>
> That is an _incredible_ undertaking. I hope they can attain to it, but when one
> considers the astronomical production aspects - not only cash - well, it can
> only happen if the hand of GOD is in it, essentially!
> I was just considering today (having listened to Lichter-Wasser last night) if
> LICHT could even be performed in the space of 7 days...
Since Stockhausen now sees SONNTAG as requiring two days for a complete
performance, that seems unlikely in the extreme. When Wagner's Ring is done
as a cycle, there are normally "dark days" between the operas for regrouping,
but of course that is partly because the four operas are normally done in one
theatre. If LICHT were to be done in several venues, with different companies
responsible for different operas, I suppose it might be just possible, but the
coordination of such a project would be horrendous.
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
J.B.L.
>performance, that seems unlikely in the extreme.
I didn't know that, but SONNTAG struck me as being the stumbling block to a
performance per week. Dark days and all, I certainly hope a performance of the
entire colossus can be achieved.
To go off at a tangent: are there any photographs or videos of a live
performance of LICHTER-WASSER? I've been playing that tonight and I would love
to see it with the lamps in operation.
Observation: especially in LICHT and LICHT-related works, Stockhausen strikes
me as almost Debussy-like! A beautiful shimmering impressionism...
Jerry Kohl
> >Since Stockhausen now sees SONNTAG as requiring two days for a complete
> >performance, that seems unlikely in the extreme.
>
> I didn't know that, but SONNTAG struck me as being the stumbling block to a
> performance per week. Dark days and all, I certainly hope a performance of the
> entire colossus can be achieved.
>
> To go off at a tangent: are there any photographs or videos of a live
> performance of LICHTER-WASSER? I've been playing that tonight and I would love
> to see it with the lamps in operation.
I don't know it for a fact, but I am fairly confident that Suzanne Stephens
must have videotaped at least the dress rehearsal for the world premičre.
I don't know about still photographs taken during the actual performance,
but again there must be photos of the dress rehearsal.
> Observation: especially in LICHT and LICHT-related works, Stockhausen strikes
> me as almost Debussy-like! A beautiful shimmering impressionism...
Heh-heh! In my paper for the Stockhausen 2000 Symposion, "Der
Aspekt der Harmonik in LICHT" (still awaiting publication in the
proceedings of the conference), I made an observation about bars
839ff in "Das grosse Geweine", the last scene of act 1 of MONTAG.
At this point, the upward unfolding of the 11-note Lucifer-chord in
synthesizer III has just reached completion, symbolizing Lucifer
wrathful rising up out of the sea, after having been buried in the sand
of the beach in the previous scene:
As this arpeggiated unfolding reaches its completion,
"LUCIFER bass (without double) comes out of the sea
(wearing shiny black raincoat, with sou'wester and leg-length
boots like a deep-sea fisherman)." The music accompanying
this apparition, perhaps unexpectedly, is filled with whole-tone-
scale (and augmented-triad) sounds—a sonority usually avoided
in twelve-tone musical textures (Example 12a). In light of the
striking similarity of this passage with La Mer (II "Jeux de vagues",
mm. 36ff., shown in Example 12b), I asked Stockhausen [in a
conversation on Fri. 26 Nov. 1999] if he was making a sly
reference to Debussy. He was genuinely startled. Quickly
recovering, though, he joked: "I never knew Debussy was
interested in me!" Even though the quotation was evidently not
made consciously, it is unmistakable, and draws the listener's
attention to the sea, just before Lucifer emerges from it.
So, clearly I agree with you, though some portions are more likely
to suggest impressionism than others. For decades now Stockhausen
has been talking about assimilation of all sorts of styles (a very
different attitude from the one prevalent in the 1950s--not just in
Stockhausen's music--when all stylistic references were to be
avoided); If a passage sounds like Debussy, that is certainly no
problem.
Bernard Pulham
1a5f93ac.04081...@posting.google.com, "Rod Stasick"
<ros...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> cn_c...@runbox.com (Nigel Curtis) wrote in message
> news:<3f30d241.04080...@posting.google.com>...
>> So - any good gossip or info from the course which I think is now
>> finishing..?
>>
>> Thank = Nigel
>
> I'm in München right now and don't have much time to say much, but you
> may want to know that Luziferium (sp?) should be finished in November.
> If I remember correctly, it is to be for 9 trombonists and, I think,
> 3(?) percussionists and may or IS to be performed simultaneous with
> the complete Sonntag - in the foyer probably, and yes, during the
> complete Sonntag, so it is many hours in length. Sorry about the
> sketchy details, but I have to check my notes when I get home later
> this month. > Rod
This is good news. I wonder if the music of Luziferium will continue during
the Sonntag intervals as well as the scenes. That would make it much longer
than the opera's 278 minutes, particularly if there is at least one
overnight break in the performance. It will be particularly important that
Sonntag gets at least two performances so I can hear the Luziferium as well!
>Also, there is talk of staging the complete Licht in Essen
> in 2010, but it is too early for complete news on this - Essen needs
> and wants to come up with fundraising schemes for this...
>
Finger's crossed for this, and hopefully premiere stagings of Sonntag and
Mittwoch while we wait!
Bernard
Mark Stratford
> I'm in München right now and don't have much time to say much, but you
When you've more time Rod - do please tell us what you thought about
the premiere in Kurten of Sonntags Abschied for 5 synths..!
mark s.
Mark Stratford
> in 2010, but it is too early for complete news on this - Essen needs
> and wants to come up with fundraising schemes for this...
>
Rather than the whole cycle as a 'BIg Bang' in 6 years time , which
sounds totally impratical, it would be nicer if they could set more
modest horizons, like just performing and recording MICHAELION in one
year's time. That alone would be a great achievement.
ms
Jerry Kohl
Quite so. When Seattle first mounted Wagner's little Ring cycle in
the 1970s, they worked up to it over four years by presenting one
opera at a time. Surely it would be more sensible for Essen to do
something of the same nature, but even if they started *this* year
they would scarcely be ready to assemble all seven operas into a
festival by 2010.
Jethro
> the 1970s, they worked up to it over four years by presenting one
> opera at a time. Surely it would be more sensible for Essen to do
> something of the same nature, but even if they started *this* year
> they would scarcely be ready to assemble all seven operas into a
> festival by 2010.
Not to mention finding someone who can sing Stockhausen's music from
memory while doing a choreographed dance in a camel outfit, only to
transform into a monk who performs shortwave hiss improv. But I
digress...
Jerry Kohl
Oddly enough, even Wagnerian singers are commonly expected to sing
from memory, and some have on occasion been required to perform in
dragon costumes. Now, doing short-wave improvisations (but "hiss"?),
I will grant you, might be a little more difficult. This might require
the
services of Michael Vetter. But I digress ...
Nigel Curtis
There's a guy in Birmingham UK who's trying to get Mittwoch staged in
that city by students from the university & music college plus the
electronic music studio and some flying school.
I know there's a lot of genuine interest there but unless someone can
underwrite it, they're wasting their time even thinking about it.
Maybe it's the same in Essen..?
Nigel
Mark Stratford
> >Essen needs and wants to come up with fundraising schemes for this...
>
> There's a guy in Birmingham UK who's trying to get Mittwoch staged in
> that city by students from the university & music college plus the
> electronic music studio and some flying school.
>
You must mean Ivor. I think he would stand much more chance if he did
it iteratively - each year building up a bit of experience and
interest: eg one season getting the students to do a few of the
Orchester Finalisten movements and say that choral sextet from
Michaelion & the Rotary Trio , the next season the electronic gretting
& Thinki etc etc.
That way Mittwoch would become a bit of a tradition and it might be
easier getting some funding/sponsorship for something ongoing like
that.
I think the big-bang approach (complete Mittwoch or nothing) is a
non-starter.
Apart from the money, it's also very hard.! I think the Bonn thing
fell through because the chorus just couldn't lean their parts...
mark stratford
Jerry Kohl
The "Bonn thing" fell through for a number of reasons, but the chorus
never had a chance to find out whether they could learn the parts or
not. As I understand it, the thing about the choir that contributed to
the breakdown of the planned Bonn premiere was that the choirmaster
said he needed more rehearsal time for some operetta (Lehar, perhaps?),
and the administration agreed that the choir-rehearsal time for Mittwoch
could be *reduced* to accommodate this!! Considering that there were
severe reservations about the choir's ability to sing scenes 1 and 4
*at all*, this reduction in scheduled rehearsal was one of the several
straws that broke the Lucicamel's back (if you will pardon the
expression). However, another equally serious problem was that
Bonn had delayed making a decision on who would do the stage
direction until it was too late to secure the services of anyone capable
or willing to take on the task. There were doubtless other factors
involved as well, but these two were certainly sufficient to prevent
the performance going ahead, and served to reinforce Bonn's
reputation as a third-rate opera house--at least so far as its
administration is concerned.
Rod Stasick
Here's some info concerning the Essen bid for the "Kulturhaupstadt
Europas 2010." You may notice that other cities are competing to host
this cultural event (NOT "Licht") that is a kind of "Olympics of
Culture." - Bremen, Köln, Münster...
Text only in German, but you see mention of Licht-Zyklus idea about
3/4 down the page:
Of course, google searches for "essen 2010 licht" will give you
more...
R~
Bernard Pulham
<jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
In Berne too, things gradually fell through, and there were strong
implications in Stockhausen's reported comments that the undoubted
enthusiasm was shown to be no substitute for experience in the planning of
such a performance. (see Suzanne Stephens' reports at Stockhausen.org)
I hope the directors of future projects have a proven ability at the highest
level in order to bring all the necessary elements together. Although some
of the best performers of contemporary music have been student ensembles,
whose enthusiasm and dedication can put professionals to shame, that does
not mean the production of such large projects can be left to the
inexperienced.
Mark Stratford
> I hope the directors of future projects have a proven ability at the highest
> level in order to bring all the necessary elements together. Although some
> of the best performers of contemporary music have been student ensembles,
> whose enthusiasm and dedication can put professionals to shame, that does
> not mean the production of such large projects can be left to the
> inexperienced.
I'm interested in the way KhS is doing more and more of these 8-track
tape performances of big works.
At Kurten there's been Carre, HSQ, Engel-P ( and I think L-Wasser..?)
and this Autumn in Italy he's doing both versions of H-Z, plus
Dufte-Z. Maybe more of this should be done to help the world get
familiar with these Licht scenes until the technical & financial
headaches are eased...?
That famous darkened room with a little moon on the stage would make
the perfect setting for say, Welt Parlament or Festival. The more
people can actually hear , talk and argue about these works surely the
easier it would be to get interest in mounting and financing them..?
mark s
Jerry Kohl
> On 14/8/04 9:51 am, in article 411DD274...@comcast.net, "Jerry Kohl"
> <jerom...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Mark Stratford wrote:
> >> Apart from the money, it's also very hard.! I think the Bonn thing
> >> fell through because the chorus just couldn't lean their parts...
> >
> > The "Bonn thing" fell through for a number of reasons, but the chorus
> > never had a chance to find out whether they could learn the parts or
> > not.
[snip]
> In Berne too, things gradually fell through, and there were strong
> implications in Stockhausen's reported comments that the undoubted
> enthusiasm was shown to be no substitute for experience in the planning of
> such a performance. (see Suzanne Stephens' reports at Stockhausen.org)
Yes, anything as complicated as an opera production (and these operas
more than most) has a lot of different things that can go wrong.
> I hope the directors of future projects have a proven ability at the highest
> level in order to bring all the necessary elements together. Although some
> of the best performers of contemporary music have been student ensembles,
> whose enthusiasm and dedication can put professionals to shame, that does
> not mean the production of such large projects can be left to the
> inexperienced.
Exactly. If you were a member of the quartet doing scene 2 of Mittwoch,
would you want a student pilot at the controls of the helicopter? ;-)
Jerry Kohl
> Bernard Pulham <nospamber...@nospam.com> wrote in message
>
> > I hope the directors of future projects have a proven ability at the highest
> > level in order to bring all the necessary elements together. Although some
> > of the best performers of contemporary music have been student ensembles,
> > whose enthusiasm and dedication can put professionals to shame, that does
> > not mean the production of such large projects can be left to the
> > inexperienced.
>
> I'm interested in the way KhS is doing more and more of these 8-track
> tape performances of big works.
>
> At Kurten there's been Carre, HSQ, Engel-P ( and I think L-Wasser..?)
Lichter-Wasser was done from the 24-channel recording master, projected
over (ISTR) eight channels, and this comes a lot closer to the intended
effect than a mere two-channel stereo reduction. The main purpose, however,
was for analysis, since this setup enabled smaller groups of tracks or even
single tracks to be played back separately. There was no concert performance
in this form, though the course participants did get to hear the entire work
projected in this way on two occasions.
>
> and this Autumn in Italy he's doing both versions of H-Z, plus
> Dufte-Z. Maybe more of this should be done to help the world get
> familiar with these Licht scenes until the technical & financial
> headaches are eased...?
>
> That famous darkened room with a little moon on the stage would make
> the perfect setting for say, Welt Parlament or Festival. The more
> people can actually hear , talk and argue about these works surely the
> easier it would be to get interest in mounting and financing them..?
I cannot entirely agree with this, Mark. Both Weltparlament and Festival
are meant to be seen as well as heard. Stockhausen uses the "little moon"
scenario for pieces like Gesang der Jünglinge or the Invisible Choirs,
precisely because they are *not* meant to have a visible presence.
Still, a filmed performance synchronized with a four or eight-channel
tape might be better than nothing and, lacking the appropriate
film/sound combination, I imagine that Stockhausen will settle for
what can be managed.
Mark Stratford
> are there any photographs or videos of a live performance of LICHTER-WASSER?
J.B.L. - If you want to see a wonderful Stockhausen photo, look at the
score of the Rotary Wind Quintet (a 1997 re-working of a bit of
Michaelion).
The photos are of a rehearsal obviously very shortly before the
ROtarians' night of gluttony started; you can see the tables groaning
with glasses, cutlery and stuff. The whole idea is quite amusing -
like these young players, all dressed in blue and separated into the
far corners of the room , are some sort of minstrels amongst the
carrousing...!
BTW: apparently KhS spent four days rehearsing this 8 minute piece..!
The score looks full of interest - I hope a recording appears soon.
mark stratford
J.B.L.
>score of the Rotary Wind Quintet (a 1997 re-working of a bit of
>Michaelion).
I'll go check those out ( assuming they're at the site) - but the reason I want
to see a video or at least some still photos of LICHTER-WASSER is to see those
waves going through the ensemble by the use of those lights! That's a simple
idea, but the effect sounds as if it could be brilliant...