Nancarrow
Mazzolata
for around $50. It sounds fascinating from what I've heard of it, but
I haven't actually heard any of the music. Should I get it? Any
recommendations on this? I like the Ligeti piano music a lot, if that
helps as a basis ...
Samuel Vriezen
> My local CD store has a copy of the complete player piano music (5CDs)
> for around $50. It sounds fascinating from what I've heard of it, but
> I haven't actually heard any of the music. Should I get it?
Absolutely. This is a music that has the ability to keep you alive when
you need it.
> Any
> recommendations on this? I like the Ligeti piano music a lot, if that
> helps as a basis ...
It does. Ligeti's piano studies are admirable, very well written and
original pieces, but if I were in an impish mood I could as well
describe them as 'Nancarrow watered down by Bartok' (und Debussy ist
auch dabei) or something like that.
Nancarrow is the original. Some of those studies are IMO among the
greatest works of the 20th c. (Such as 'Canon X', #36, #40a & b, the
overwhelming rhythmic complexity of #48 a,b,c, but the earlier ones
which aren't so extreme yet I like a LOT, too)
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Bruce Hodges
>
> Nancarrow is the original. Some of those studies are IMO among the
> greatest works of the 20th c. (Such as 'Canon X', #36, #40a & b, the
> overwhelming rhythmic complexity of #48 a,b,c, but the earlier ones
> which aren't so extreme yet I like a LOT, too)
Totally agree! Many of his studies are so incredibly difficult that
no human being could possibly play them (at least, as of late 2003).
The "Canon X" is one of my favorites, too: an elegantly simple concept
produces a riveting result that is again, all but unplayable, except
on a player piano.
--Bruce
Greg M. Silverman
Absolutely... I have it and love it... get it ASAP. Very tonal and very
rhyhmically complex. Great stuff. I especially love his take on the
blues. Never heard the Ligeti though...
gms-
Rod Stasick
The question is: do you think that you'd enjoy really fast, intricate
player piano music?
I think that they're incredible works, but some people might find them
extremely annoying. You could imagine the phone calls I'd received
during a radio show in the 70's! ("...sounds like someone throwing a
piano down the stairs...")
rodst
---
Now playing: Triad Radio Revisited - Progressive and experimental
music from Holland, France, Germany, Italy, and other places.
Samuel Vriezen
I half-wittingly plagiarized this piece for an electronic study piece of
mine (which I've lately described as 'Not a piece, but a sketch for a
piece I'd once like to write which would sound exactly like the
sketch'). This has a slow and a fast voice interchange tempi playing the
same melodic cycle, a la Canon X, but then repeatedly and at the same
time exchanging location and mutating their timbre (using very simple FM
techniques).
It was funny to discover that even though conceptually, the piece is
extremely close to the Nancarrow, in musical practice it isn't.
Composition can be such a mystery! To know which part of composing does
and which does not belong to the piece...
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Joachim Pense
>
> Nancarrow is the original. Some of those studies are IMO among the
> greatest works of the 20th c. (Such as 'Canon X', #36, #40a & b, the
> overwhelming rhythmic complexity of #48 a,b,c, but the earlier ones
> which aren't so extreme yet I like a LOT, too)
>
What do you think of the early Blues-inspired pieces? They sound fairly
naive to me...?...
Joachim
Greg M. Silverman
then call me naive... I think they're kind of neat.
gms--
Greg M. Silverman
BTW, Zappa was a huge fan of Nancarrow.
gms--
Samuel Vriezen
Samuel Vriezen
FTR - I think they're wonderful. Already this Boogie-Woogie Suite brings
out the best in Nancarrow, in the instrument, and in the
bluesy/boogiewoogie style at the same time. Totally spot-on, it makes
complete sense, nothing more could be asked of a piece of music in my book.
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Joachim Pense
The answers so far (strangely enough both of them with self-replies) are
going to make me re-listen...
Joachim
Jeffrey Quick
Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote:
I prefer the word "fresh". In the earlier pieces especially (incl. the
non-PP works) it's fairly clear that tight expert control of pitch
materials is not Nancarrow's thing. I don't feel that the notes chosen
are inevitable...they could be replaced by other notes with no loss of
effect. Well, OK, such rhythmic control as Nancarrow's is not MOST
composers' thing, and you can't be good at everything. For me, he's not
a first-rate composer...but he's right at the top of the 2nd-rate list.
And in a world where 10th-rate composers have careers, that's high
praise indeed.
Samuel Vriezen
Very good, though of course you now missed the opportunity to self-reply
yourself.
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Samuel Vriezen
>>>
>>> What do you think of the early Blues-inspired pieces? They sound
>>> fairly naive to me...?...
>>>
>>
>> So?
>>
>
> FTR - I think they're wonderful. Already this Boogie-Woogie Suite brings
> out the best in Nancarrow, in the instrument, and in the
> bluesy/boogiewoogie style at the same time. Totally spot-on, it makes
> complete sense, nothing more could be asked of a piece of music in my book.
For the sheer grammatical fun of 'I self-reply my self-reply myself',
I'd like to add that I think James Tenney put it completely right by
writing of the boogie movement that 'these are in fact rather _surreal_
manifestations of that style - as if Jimmy Yancey, Fats Waller, James P.
Johnson and Art Tatum were all ecstatically jamming together in heaven
(or wherever it is that such men go after that "last gig")!'
And now that we're there, I've just listened to a few tracks from the
new Donemus Composers Voice release of the music of Richard Ayres,
ensemble Musikfabrik playing. I've often wondered what 'musical
surrealism' could be like - this might be it. Everything is at least a
little odd in this music, full of tonal progressions that somehow sound
not so tonal at all, the Concert pieces tilted just slightly to become
NONcerto's (uncertain pieces). I highly recommend this stuff!
Does anyone else have some idea of 'surrealist music'?
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Samuel Vriezen
For me, this seeming arbitrariness in the pitch domain is in fact in no
way a problem and Nancarrow is definitely among my 1st rate composers.
The rhythmic thing is the main subject and if the pitches had become too
clever, we might not know what the music was about. I think in fact that
the choice for a simple jazzy style can also be interpreted as a choice
for something recognizable to measure time by. A musically recognizable
and attractive 'ruler', so to speak. Keeping it a bit arbitrary, always
jazzy or at least with an improv feel helps him to not actually become
Carter (who himself was inspired by Nancarrow's example but took it
firmly into the domain of 'good counterpoint' a la Boulanger, where
music has a nice up-and-down pattern but it's got little swing)
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Colin Broom
"Mazzolata" <mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d221894.03091...@posting.google.com...
Without a shadow of a doubt get the box set. It's incredible. Hearing
Nancarrow for the first time just completely blew me away, and even now
several years later I always am taken aback at how full of life they are.
There is no other music that sounds like this. So get them!
C.
Herb Levy
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <dc520bc4.03091...@posting.google.com>, Bruce
Hodges <bho...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
I'll add my vote to those that say the original poster should
definitely pick up the the set of Nancarrow's player piano studies and
it wouldn't hurt to look for the scores and writings about Nancarrow's
music that have been published. Here are a Web reference that might be
useful: <http://homepage.mac.com/sergioluque/nancarrow/>.
I'll also note that despite Bruce Hodge's statements above virtually
all of Nancarrow's studies are unplayable by a human being by nature of
the sheer number of simultaneous notes, tempi etc. & are likely to
remain that way.
There are transcriptions for several of them available but these are
for multiple keyboards and/or ensemble, rather than for a soloist and
they're not playable at the original tempi.
Nancarrow did compose several pieces for solo pianist in the last ten
years of his life which, while greatly informed by his work for player
pianos, are performable by human pianists.
Mazzolata
Some of Satie, e.g. Parade
Alex Temple
> Does anyone else have some idea of 'surrealist music'?
>
One version of Surrealism is the jarring juxtaposition of ordinary but
unrelated objects -- you know, an umbrella and a sewing-machine on a
dissecting table and all that. The closest musical equivalent I can
think of for that is Zorn in jump-cut mode.
I think someone once claimed that Steve Stapleton and his band/recording
project/alias Nurse With Wound were surrealist music, but I'm skeptical.
--
Alex Temple
fiber_optiq NO @ SPAM yahoo PLEASE .com
http://www.isomerica.net/~electricwalrus
"Memes don't exist. Tell your friends."
Alex Temple
>
> It does. Ligeti's piano studies are admirable, very well written and
> original pieces, but if I were in an impish mood I could as well
> describe them as 'Nancarrow watered down by Bartok' (und Debussy ist
> auch dabei) or something like that.
And maybe some gamelan and Thelonious Monk thrown in for good measure.
And Bill Evans, natürlich.
Jerry Kohl
> Samuel Vriezen wrote:
>
> > Does anyone else have some idea of 'surrealist music'?
> >
>
> One version of Surrealism is the jarring juxtaposition of ordinary but
> unrelated objects -- you know, an umbrella and a sewing-machine on a
> dissecting table and all that. The closest musical equivalent I can
> think of for that is Zorn in jump-cut mode.
>
> I think someone once claimed that Steve Stapleton and his band/recording
> project/alias Nurse With Wound were surrealist music, but I'm skeptical.
Isn't this also supposed to be a feature of some of Michael Nyman's music,
such as his music for Peter Greenaway's The Draughtsman's Contract, where
style imitation is brought to a certain edge of unreality by deliberately
incongruous elements (saxophones in a sub-Purcell trio-sonata, for
example)?
--
Jerry Kohl <jerom...@comcast.net>
"Légpárnás hajóm tele van angolnákkal."
Joachim Pense
[Nancarrow]
talking about Nancarrow, has anybody ever thought of transfering his PP
pieces (or PP music in general) to MIDI? This should be technically
simple, only it might be expensive to build a reader for the paper rolls...
Joachim
Colin Broom
"Joachim Pense" <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:bju9sv$o94$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
All of the scores are published by Schott Music, in Nancarrow's own
(extraordinarily messy) handwriting, so for many , a roll reader wouldn't be
necessary.
I have the score to Study No.3, and started putting Study No. 3a into
Finale, just for the hell of it (did about the first 50 bars), but got
sidetracked with other thing, though I still have the MIDI file I think.
All of the studies that do not use multiple simultaneous tempi should be
fairly straightforward, though the ones that do would prove pretty tricky
just with MIDI, even if you do have a piano roll view!
I also, as a student, did an orchestration of Study No. 3c, which I still
maintain is slightly better than the one by Yvar Mikhashoff! :)
Incidentally, anyone have any opinions on the Ensemble Modern CD of
Nancarrow works, some of them arrangements of the studies by Mikhashoff? I
think think some of them are great, but others are to my ears way off in
terms of the orchestration, and seem to seek to remove the "angularity" from
Nancarrow's music. I know that for several of the orchestrations, Nancarrow
suggested the instrumentation, but I have to say, I thought some of it was
ill-considered.
C.
Samuel Vriezen
I think Clarence Barlow may have been working on that. I should check.
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Herb Levy
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:<bju9sv$o94$00$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> Samuel Vriezen wrote:
>
> [Nancarrow]
>
> talking about Nancarrow, has anybody ever thought of transfering his PP
> pieces (or PP music in general) to MIDI? This should be technically
> simple, only it might be expensive to build a reader for the paper rolls...
>
> Joachim
Composer & instrument builder Trimpin did this when he was working with
Nancarrow, but as far as I know these MIDI files (and, for that matter,
the piano roll reader) are not generally available.
Samuel Vriezen
> Samuel Vriezen wrote:
>
>>It does. Ligeti's piano studies are admirable, very well written and
>>original pieces, but if I were in an impish mood I could as well
>>describe them as 'Nancarrow watered down by Bartok' (und Debussy ist
>>auch dabei) or something like that.
>
>
> And maybe some gamelan and Thelonious Monk thrown in for good measure.
> And Bill Evans, natürlich.
Oh, and here I was thinking I had the Monk part covered by Nancarrow and
the Evans and gamelan part by Debussy.
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Joachim Pense
> "Joachim Pense" <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:bju9sv$o94$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
>>Samuel Vriezen wrote:
>>
>>[Nancarrow]
>>
>>talking about Nancarrow, has anybody ever thought of transfering his PP
>>pieces (or PP music in general) to MIDI? This should be technically
>>simple, only it might be expensive to build a reader for the paper
>
> rolls...
>
> All of the scores are published by Schott Music, in Nancarrow's own
> (extraordinarily messy) handwriting, so for many , a roll reader wouldn't be
> necessary.
But helpful. Does that mean that CN wrote the scores first or did he
transcribe them from the rolls? I thought that he often punched his
pieces directly into the roll, led by e.g. geometrical ideas etc.
>
> I have the score to Study No.3, and started putting Study No. 3a into
> Finale, just for the hell of it (did about the first 50 bars), but got
> sidetracked with other thing, though I still have the MIDI file I think.
> All of the studies that do not use multiple simultaneous tempi should be
> fairly straightforward, though the ones that do would prove pretty tricky
> just with MIDI, even if you do have a piano roll view!
A roll reader could do that automatically.
Joachim
Joachim Pense
Too bad. Such a reader could also be helpful for the preservation of the
interpretations put on rolls until the first half of the last century
by prominent pianists (and composers, like Prokoviev or Scott Joplin).
Joachim
Colin Broom
> Colin Broom wrote:
> But helpful. Does that mean that CN wrote the scores first or did he
> transcribe them from the rolls? I thought that he often punched his
> pieces directly into the roll, led by e.g. geometrical ideas etc.
He scored the pieces later, sometime later I believe. I seem to recall
reading somewhere that in the 60s he felt he would be taken more serriously
if there were scores of of his work available and so he grudgingly wrote
them out (can't remember where I read this). As I said, the scores are
pretty damn messy and there are a few mistakes, but they are nevetheless
interesting reading. There's about 5 or 6 volumes of them.
For anyone who's really interested in Nancarrow's work, the Kyle Gann book
'TheMusic of Conlon Nancarrow' is well worth a read.
C.
Mazzolata
>
> Without a shadow of a doubt get the box set. It's incredible. Hearing
> Nancarrow for the first time just completely blew me away, and even now
> several years later I always am taken aback at how full of life they are.
> There is no other music that sounds like this. So get them!
Thanks for all the recommendations. I've only listened to part of the
first disc so far, but they are pretty amazing. I got the set brand
new for $48.99, which seems to be a pretty good price. The only
problem is the booklet, which appears to jump from page 48 to page 73.
Maybe I can contact Wergo directly and get a replacement.
Mazzolata
Well, I emailed Schott Music, owners of Wego, and they responded
immediately with the promise of a new booklet. Great Service !
Jeffrey Quick
Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote:
> > Composer & instrument builder Trimpin did this when he was working with
> > Nancarrow, but as far as I know these MIDI files (and, for that matter,
> > the piano roll reader) are not generally available.
>
> Too bad. Such a reader could also be helpful for the preservation of the
> interpretations put on rolls until the first half of the last century
> by prominent pianists (and composers, like Prokoviev or Scott Joplin).
Rachmaninoff's rolls have been converted to MIDI and recorded on Telarc.
lem
But would sound horrible, and cube root would be impossible.
lem
Samuel Vriezen
> Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>Samuel Vriezen wrote:
>>
>>[Nancarrow]
>>
>>talking about Nancarrow, has anybody ever thought of transfering his PP
>>pieces (or PP music in general) to MIDI? This should be technically
>>simple, only it might be expensive to build a reader for the paper rolls...
>>
>>Joachim
> But would sound horrible, and cube root would be impossible.
>
> lem
>
Darn! MIDI doesn't yet cover irrational, transcendental and
non-calculable durations! If that doesn't prove the irrelevance of the
device...
--
samuel
free.concerten.fr
Mark Steven Brooks
non-calculable durations! If that doesn't prove the irrelevance of the
device... >>
No-but some sequencers have a resolution of 480 ticks per beat or better. That
should be sufficient if one calculates the durations involved.
elat...@aol.com (Mark Steven Brooks/Elaterium Music)
Herb Levy
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:<bjv24d$p66$07$1...@news.t-online.com>...
> Too bad. Such a reader could also be helpful for the preservation of the
> interpretations put on rolls until the first half of the last century
> by prominent pianists (and composers, like Prokoviev or Scott Joplin).
>
> Joachim
If you can provide the financial backing to support the commercial
production of the piano roll reader, I can get you in touch with
Trimpin.
Otherwise, I know he has too much else to do making his own work for
him to get involved in that kind of archival project.
Bests,
Herb
Jeffrey Quick
logi...@blueyonder.co.uk (lem) wrote:
> Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote:
> But would sound horrible,
Not if you used it to drive a DisClavier. In fact, without suitable
preparation, that wouldn't sound horrible ENOUGH.
>and cube root would be impossible.
There'd be as much event resolution as Nancarrow's holes, I'll bet.
Nicolas Hodges
>Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote
>> Herb Levy wrote:
>> > Joachim Pense <joachi...@t-online.de> wrote in message
>> > news:<bju9sv$o94$00$1...@news.t-online.com>...
>> >>
>> >>pieces (or PP music in general) to MIDI? This should be technically
>> >>simple, only it might be expensive to build a reader for the paper rolls...
>> >
>> > Nancarrow, but as far as I know these MIDI files (and, for that matter,
>> > the piano roll reader) are not generally available.
>>
>> Too bad. Such a reader could also be helpful for the preservation of the
>> interpretations put on rolls until the first half of the last century
>> by prominent pianists (and composers, like Prokoviev or Scott Joplin).
>
>production of the piano roll reader, I can get you in touch with
>Trimpin.
>
>Otherwise, I know he has too much else to do making his own work for
>him to get involved in that kind of archival project.
Talking of archival projects, it might be worth pointing out that the
rolls and pianos are now at the Sacher Stiftung in Basel, so at least
they're safe. (I have a colleague doing a PhD on Nancarrow who has been
there to hear rolls played on the actual pianos.)
I imagine there are loads of people working on musicological Nancarrow
projects, but I doubt that transferring the pieces to midi is high on
anyone's agenda. They seem to me private pieces in the sense of him
playing them to himself or friends, or to us via the CD player:
transferring to midi for private use seems to me a pretty pointless
exercise when the recordings are so good, and a midi version in a
concert hall would turn them into something quite different.
And that's leaving aside the copyright issues.
--
Nic