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Perfect strangers? Boulez and Zappa

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Simon Barrow

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Jun 17, 2002, 1:52:23 PM6/17/02
to
Fairly recently I came across a piece on Frank Zappa published in
'Andante' (December 2001), which reminded me of the Boulez conducts
Zappa album, 'The Perfect Stranger':

"It is a strange image: Frank Zappa seated next to Pierre Boulez.
Boulez looks avuncular and charming, Zappa hirsute, gaunt, legs
crossed, somewhat terrifying. Appearances aside, these two artists
have both everything and nothing in common: Zappa, the angry
iconoclast with a guitar, a one-man Brecht/Weill/Spike Jones (the list
goes on) simultaneously seeking and disparaging academic acceptance;
Boulez, his own brand of iconoclast, with the legendary ear and more
legendary aesthetic fury."

However there is no further elucidation. Anyone know how on earth this
extraordinary collaboration came about. And has Boulez made public
comment on it?

Simon Barrow

kadoff

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Jun 18, 2002, 12:20:06 AM6/18/02
to
> However there is no further elucidation. Anyone know how on earth this
> extraordinary collaboration came about. And has Boulez made public
> comment on it?
>
> Simon Barrow


Here may be something you're looking for:
http://www.uoregon.edu/~splat/EIC.html

Patrick Powers

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Jun 18, 2002, 12:54:33 AM6/18/02
to
simon_...@hotmail.com (Simon Barrow) wrote in message news:<d282a027.02061...@posting.google.com>...

> Fairly recently I came across a piece on Frank Zappa published in
> 'Andante' (December 2001), which reminded me of the Boulez conducts
> Zappa album, 'The Perfect Stranger':
>

I have been researching this subject, Frank Zappa had a strong
classical influence until about 1970 when his music became much more
comical and commercial. Zappa was also very frustrated in his
attempts to have his classical music performed, having spent $300,000
on orchestral scores which met with hostility. In his later career he
bypassed this problem by use of the Synclavier, Mr. Zappa being
particularly interested in things like seventh notes superimposed over
eleventh notes which the machine had no difficulty with. Listeners
found the result lacking in soul and little enthusiasm resulted.

Subsequently Mr. Zappa encountered the Ensemble Moderne, highly
skilled contemporary musicians who were fans of his difficult music.
He also found his days were numbered and money didn't matter so much
any more, and so returned to the classical form. The result was "The
Yellow Shark" which all posts agreed was superior to the Boulez.

Another work that met with general approval was "Civilization Phaze
III". Improved Synclavier technology enabled Frank to finally use
this instrument with success. This last work concerns the
self-destruction of modern industrial civilization and was finished
two weeks before his death, whereupon the composer said "there is
nothing more I can do". The piece is densely textured and contains
oblique, abstract dialog. His widow Gail would allow this to be sold
only direct over the Internet because she bitterly wanted no money to
go to music companies who gave him no support as a composer.

Paul Wehage

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Jun 18, 2002, 5:36:35 AM6/18/02
to
Anyone know how on earth this
> extraordinary collaboration came about.

Boulez has/had an enormous respect for the music of Zappa. He
certainly didn't have to do this project, but it happened because he
wanted it to happen.



And has Boulez made public
> comment on it?

Well, there's the recording, isn't there? Somebody who's such a
perfectionist wouldn't have let this out if he didn't think that it
was a pretty good recording, would he?

Best wishes,

Paul Wehage
Musik Fabrik Music Publishing
visit our website http://www.classicalmusicnow.com
Hear our music at http://www.ampcast.com/musikfabrik

mark doran

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Jun 18, 2002, 2:39:41 PM6/18/02
to
"Paul Wehage" <musik....@chello.fr> wrote in message
news:4f760a99.0206180136.2c9e16cb

> Somebody who's such a
> perfectionist wouldn't have let this out if he didn't think that it
> was a pretty good recording, would he?

Pardon me, but I really think it's time that the myth about 'Boulez the
perfectionist' was seen as the ludicrous nonsense it really is. Boulez the
anal-retentive, yes. Boulez the aggressive narcissist, yes. Both of these
can *look* a bit like 'perfectionism', but really should be seen as
materially different from it. There are Boulez recordings of Webern which
(as Christopher Wintle once pointed out in a 'Music Analysis' article) don't
even properly represent the notations in the score; I myself have heard a
Boulez recording of the Schoenberg Piano Concerto where the recording clips
the first note; and there's a recording of the 'Begleitungsmusik zu einer
Lichtspielszene' in which the second note of an important (!) two-note (!)
'Hauptstimme' (!) motif on p.1 (!) is all but *inaudible*. These are
*elementary* flaws - and a perfectionist would have done *something* about
them. Hero-worship all you want, but why not hero-worship someone for
something they actually do, rather than for what they or/and their
publicists or/and their brainwashed acolytes want you to think they do?

M.


Simon Barrow

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Jun 18, 2002, 2:47:03 PM6/18/02
to
frisbie...@yahoo.com (Patrick Powers) wrote in message news:<9511688f.02061...@posting.google.com>...

> simon_...@hotmail.com (Simon Barrow) wrote in message news:<d282a027.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> > Fairly recently I came across a piece on Frank Zappa published in
> > 'Andante' (December 2001), which reminded me of the Boulez conducts
> > Zappa album, 'The Perfect Stranger':
> >
>
> I have been researching this subject, Frank Zappa

[clip]

Thanks. I'm familiar with Zappa. It was actually Boulez's angle I was
enquiring about.

>
> Zappa encountered the Ensemble Moderne, highly
> skilled contemporary musicians who were fans of his difficult music.
> He also found his days were numbered and money didn't matter so much
> any more, and so returned to the classical form. The result was "The
> Yellow Shark" which all posts agreed was superior to the Boulez.


Hmmn... I don&#8217;t really see any comparison between the two.
&#8216;The Perfect Stranger&#8217; contains some relatively complex
composition, none of which features on the Ensemble Modern (note no
'e') album &#8211; a live rendition of some lighter pieces. I can see
that rock fans would prefer the latter, however. EM also did another
Zappa CD called 'Everything Is Healing Nicely' (cond. Peter Rundel).

I haven&#8217;t heard the Kent Negano LSO collaborations or the
bizarre-sounding performances of Zappa on period Baroque instruments
by Ensemble Ambrosius, so I can&#8217;t comment on those.

Simon Barrow

Simon Barrow

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Jun 18, 2002, 2:58:01 PM6/18/02
to
musik....@chello.fr (Paul Wehage) wrote in message news:<4f760a99.02061...@posting.google.com>...

Actually Boulez was pretty strenuous in his refusal to commend Zappa
at the time he did this. And AFAICT he has no control at all over the
recording, which is owned by the Zappa estate. So it&#8217;s still a
little bit of a mystery from the PB end.

Simon Barrow

Simon Barrow

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Jun 18, 2002, 2:58:23 PM6/18/02
to
musik....@chello.fr (Paul Wehage) wrote in message news:<4f760a99.02061...@posting.google.com>...

Actually Boulez was pretty strenuous in his refusal to commend Zappa

Simon Barrow

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Jun 18, 2002, 2:59:29 PM6/18/02
to
musik....@chello.fr (Paul Wehage) wrote in message news:<4f760a99.02061...@posting.google.com>...

Actually Boulez was pretty strenuous in his refusal to commend Zappa

Greg M. Silverman

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Jun 18, 2002, 3:09:20 PM6/18/02
to Simon Barrow
Simon Barrow wrote:

>I haven&#8217;t heard the Kent Negano LSO collaborations or the
>bizarre-sounding performances of Zappa on period Baroque instruments
>by Ensemble Ambrosius, so I can&#8217;t comment on those.
>

The Kent Nagano/LSO recordings had some problems, especially in the
brass on "Strictly Genteel," in which there is a a fade out (read any
of Frank's accounts of the problems with teh brass section popping over
to the pub before this session). However, it had some excellent moments too.

IMO, Zappa on period intruments is brilliant. *Ensemble Ambrosius* gives
a very strong reading and unique interpretations of standards from the
Zappa songbook, including a rousing neo-Baroquish "Idiot Bastard Son,"
complete with tenor (almost reminds one of Peter Pears performing
Britten at times). I cannot get enough of this disk!

Greg--

Samuel Vriezen

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Jun 18, 2002, 3:45:27 PM6/18/02
to
On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 19:39:41 +0100, "mark doran"
<doran#FIXITdial.pipex.com> wrote:

>"Paul Wehage" <musik....@chello.fr> wrote in message
>news:4f760a99.0206180136.2c9e16cb
>
>> Somebody who's such a
>> perfectionist wouldn't have let this out if he didn't think that it
>> was a pretty good recording, would he?
>
>Pardon me, but I really think it's time that the myth about 'Boulez the
>perfectionist' was seen as the ludicrous nonsense it really is.

I seem to recall, viz the Zappa, that a lot of overdubbing was needed.

--
Samuel
http://concerten.free.fr/home.html

Have you actually got anything to say with the orchestra, or is your ego
just wanting to make a big noise?

- Frederic Rzewski quoted in The Wire #220

Francois Desnoyers

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Jun 18, 2002, 5:49:09 PM6/18/02
to

Patrick Powers wrote:

Can you say from which web site(s) "Civilization Phaze III" could be downloaded?

Greg M. Silverman

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Jun 18, 2002, 5:58:57 PM6/18/02
to
Francois Desnoyers wrote:

>
>Can you say from which web site(s) "Civilization Phaze III" could be downloaded?
>

I found my copy at a used CD store, but you should be able to get it
brand new from the official source of all things Zappa, at
http://www.zappa.com/
(go to the Barfco Swill link for the on-line store). In case you didn't
know, "Civilization" give closure to the story-line in "Lumpy Gravy." I
_am_ wondering what happened to all the scores that they used to sell? I
_did_ just purchase a copy of the "Hot Rats" songbook, but there was at
one time, a number of scores that were offered for sale.

Cheers!
Greg--

Greg M. Silverman

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Jun 18, 2002, 6:00:33 PM6/18/02
to
Greg M. Silverman wrote in haste:

> I _am_ wondering what happened to all the scores that they used to
> sell?
>

Disregard... they are all there! The world is now a much safer place!

> Cheers!
> Greg--
>
>
>


Patrick Powers

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Jun 18, 2002, 6:31:10 PM6/18/02
to
simon_...@hotmail.com (Simon Barrow) wrote in message news:<d282a027.02061...@posting.google.com>...
> > The result was "The
> > Yellow Shark" which all posts agreed was superior to the Boulez.
>
>
> Hmmn... I don&#8217;t really see any comparison between the two.
> &#8216;The Perfect Stranger&#8217; contains some relatively complex
> composition, none of which features on the Ensemble Modern (note no
> 'e') album &#8211; a live rendition of some lighter pieces. I can see
> that rock fans would prefer the latter, however. EM also did another
> Zappa CD called 'Everything Is Healing Nicely' (cond. Peter Rundel).
>
> I haven&#8217;t heard the Kent Negano LSO collaborations or the
> bizarre-sounding performances of Zappa on period Baroque instruments
> by Ensemble Ambrosius, so I can&#8217;t comment on those.
>
> Simon Barrow

Thanks for the review, the writings in this group carry more weight
with me than those in the zappa fan group. I would welcome
recommendations from other readers.

I think Mr. Zappa had a gift for harmony, arranging, and most of all
for melody. He seems to have had less success writing for orchestra.
I really like the neoclassical "Uncle Meat" chamber music and "The
Yellow Shark" is said to be a continuation of that. The Ensemble
Modern included three Zappa pieces in their program during a tour of
the US, which took real courage as few classical lovers care for the
late Mr. Zappa's deportment.

By the way, "Civ. Phaze III" won a Grammy for its packaging. I'm
discouraged enough about the political/ecological situation already,
though. I'm curious, but yellow.

Greg M. Silverman

unread,
Jun 18, 2002, 6:37:05 PM6/18/02
to
Patrick Powers wrote:

>
>I think Mr. Zappa had a gift for harmony, arranging, and most of all
>for melody. He seems to have had less success writing for orchestra.
>I really like the neoclassical "Uncle Meat" chamber music and "The
>Yellow Shark" is said to be a continuation of that. The Ensemble
>Modern included three Zappa pieces in their program during a tour of
>the US, which took real courage as few classical lovers care for the
>late Mr. Zappa's deportment.
>

And, don't forget '200 Motels' -- a true masterpiece in every sense of
the word!

BTW: ICE (the group formerly known as the Minnesota Contemporary
Ensemble) does a killer version of "The Black Page" on their recording
"180 degrees from Ordinary" (also includes works by Piazzolla, Libby
Larson and others).

Lastly, my dream is to arrange all of "Stucco Homes" for solo classical
guitar (based on the Steve Vai transcription in the Frank Zappa guitar
book). Should be fun!


>By the way, "Civ. Phaze III" won a Grammy for its packaging. I'm
>discouraged enough about the political/ecological situation already,
>though. I'm curious, but yellow.
>

Wow! Such an honor!

Cheers!
Greg--


Bossk (R)

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Jun 19, 2002, 3:48:11 AM6/19/02
to
Paul Wehage <musik....@chello.fr> wrote:

> > And has Boulez made public
> > comment on it?
>
> Well, there's the recording, isn't there? Somebody
> who's such a perfectionist wouldn't have let this
> out if he didn't think that it was a pretty good
> recording, would he?

Zappa, though - true to form - more or less disowned the recording: "It was
underrehearsed. I hated that premiere. Boulez virtually had to drag me onto
the stage to take a bow ... I could see the sweat squirting out of the
musicians' foreheads. Then they had to go into the IRCAM studio the next day
and record it."

Bossk (R) <bossk-...@telia.com>
THE ZAPPA PATIO: http://zappapatio.unixlover.com


Bossk (R)

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Jun 19, 2002, 7:13:29 PM6/19/02
to
Simon Barrow <simon_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> EM also did another Zappa CD called
> 'Everything Is Healing Nicely' (cond.
> Peter Rundel).

A CD of recordings of rehearsals for the Yellow Shark project.

Patrick Powers

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Jun 19, 2002, 8:04:33 PM6/19/02
to
"Greg M. Silverman" <gmsN...@no.umn.edu> wrote in message news:<3D0F8560...@no.umn.edu>...

>>
> IMO, Zappa on period intruments is brilliant. *Ensemble Ambrosius* gives
> a very strong reading and unique interpretations of standards from the
> Zappa songbook, including a rousing neo-Baroquish "Idiot Bastard Son,"
> complete with tenor (almost reminds one of Peter Pears performing
> Britten at times). I cannot get enough of this disk!
>
> Greg--

Would you be so kind as to tell me where to find a copy? Amazon,
Yahoo, Google, three strikes.

Greg M. Silverman

unread,
Jun 19, 2002, 7:40:11 PM6/19/02
to


I got mine from Amazon about a year ago. Hope it's not out of print!

Greg--

D.G. Porter

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Jun 20, 2002, 3:04:38 AM6/20/02
to
Greg M. Silverman wrote:
>
> Patrick Powers wrote:
>
> >
> >I think Mr. Zappa had a gift for harmony, arranging, and most of all
> >for melody. He seems to have had less success writing for orchestra.
> >I really like the neoclassical "Uncle Meat" chamber music and "The
> >Yellow Shark" is said to be a continuation of that. The Ensemble
> >Modern included three Zappa pieces in their program during a tour of
> >the US, which took real courage as few classical lovers care for the
> >late Mr. Zappa's deportment.
> >
>
> And, don't forget '200 Motels' -- a true masterpiece in every sense of
> the word!

Probably the worst performance of any FZ orchestral music. Ever.
Frank didn't like Ives's music musch, except for a select few pieces,
but I know he identified with Charlie's disdain for bad performers who
profess to be "professionals."
Talk about unprofessional! Those assholes in the orchestra ripped up
their tuxedos after the session, costing even more $$ that should have
gone into film production!

D.G. Porter

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Jun 20, 2002, 3:11:15 AM6/20/02
to
Jeffrey Quick wrote:
>
> In article <4f760a99.02061...@posting.google.com>,

> musik....@chello.fr (Paul Wehage) wrote:
>
> > Anyone know how on earth this
> > > extraordinary collaboration came about.
> >
> > Boulez has/had an enormous respect for the music of Zappa. He
> > certainly didn't have to do this project, but it happened because he
> > wanted it to happen.
> >
> > And has Boulez made public
> > > comment on it?
> >
> > Well, there's the recording, isn't there? Somebody who's such a
> > perfectionist wouldn't have let this out if he didn't think that it
> > was a pretty good recording, would he?
>
> I brought it in (ca. 1990) to a seminar on New Music Trends at Cleveland
> State, taught by Bain Murray (who's dead). with the only other student
> being Sebastian Birch (who isn't dead), and the two of them ripped me a new
> a--hole about what shitty music it was. Upon further pondering, I'd have
> to say that while Zappa's compositional technique was not totally
> developed, there were more musical ideas on that record than in 5 times
> more pieces by academic composers. And lo, several years ago the Cleveland
> Chamber Symphony (resident ensemble at Cleveland State) did a nice set of
> Zappa classical, leaving poor Bain to spin in his grave I guess.

Zappa and Ives, two misunderstood, derided geniuses....
I think it was Reber Johnson who said a page of Ives had more ideas that
a whole movement by Mozart, but he meant it as derision of Ives.

Samuel Vriezen

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Jun 20, 2002, 6:49:40 AM6/20/02
to
On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:04:38 GMT, "D.G. Porter"
<dgpo...@NOSPAMpacbell.naught> wrote:

>Talk about unprofessional! Those assholes in the orchestra ripped up
>their tuxedos after the session, costing even more $$ that should have
>gone into film production!

That scene is among the most shocking things I've ever seen. It's
actually good that it's on film.

Victor Eijkhout

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Jun 26, 2002, 8:31:53 AM6/26/02
to
Greg M. Silverman <gmsN...@no.umn.edu> wrote:

> BTW: ICE (the group formerly known as the Minnesota Contemporary
> Ensemble) does a killer version of "The Black Page" on their recording
> "180 degrees from Ordinary" (also includes works by Piazzolla, Libby
> Larson and others).

My favourite Black Page was by ensemble Hoketus. Boy, was that a
boatload of noise.

--
Victor Eijkhout
"the time comes for everyone to do deliberately what
he used to do by mistake" [Quentin Crisp]

Paul Wehage

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Jun 30, 2002, 6:52:33 PM6/30/02
to
"mark doran" <doran#FIXITdial.pipex.com> wrote in message news:<3d0f7f1a$0$225$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>...

> "Paul Wehage" <musik....@chello.fr> wrote in message
> news:4f760a99.0206180136.2c9e16cb
>
> > Somebody who's such a
> > perfectionist wouldn't have let this out if he didn't think that it
> > was a pretty good recording, would he?
>
Hero-worship all you want, but why not hero-worship someone for
> something they actually do, rather than for what they or/and their
> publicists or/and their brainwashed acolytes want you to think they do?
>

hmm....Let me put it this way. I don't analy listen to everything
that the man puts out simply because he's not someone that I like. I
was very close to two people who were hurt personally by this
person....so, don't jump to conclusions about what I'm saying about
our friend Boulez....

That said, although I don't like this person, he does have the most
amazing ears of anyone that I've ever met and he IS the most demanding
musician in rehearsal that I have ever come across.

I don't know either of these recordings that you're refering to....and
I don't intend to ever hear them as I have enough live music in my
life to take care of that. Maybe you should sell the hifi and go to
more concerts?

Do you, like, play music or something? Or do you spend your time
listening to records?

Paul Wehage
Musik Fabrik Music Publishing

Mark Doran

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Jun 30, 2002, 10:28:48 PM6/30/02
to
Sorry, but I don't think this is worth replying to.

M.


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