Steve Taylor/Newsboys and dumb lyrics
Mark Mayhle
regarding Steve Taylor, the Newsboys, and a lyric rap section of "Boycott
Hell" regarding the boycotting of dumb lyrics? Who was this taking a poke
at? Did it refer to some lyric in particular? Wasn't there some post
that ST had apologized to the target artist(s)? What has this lyric been
changed to in current Newsboys renditions of the song?
My son recently bought a Newboys CD and was asking me why there's a line
in "Shine" about schizophrenics turning in their crayons. It strikes me
that here's a group with precious little room to throw stones about
dumb lyrics!
Mark Mayhle
mma...@interstate.net
Jeffrey Parks
Mark Mayhle <mma...@interstate.net> wrote:
>Not to reopen old wounds, but could someone recap for me an old thread
>regarding Steve Taylor, the Newsboys, and a lyric rap section of "Boycott
>Hell" regarding the boycotting of dumb lyrics? Who was this taking a poke
>at? Did it refer to some lyric in particular?
The Newsboys covered a Degarmo & Key song called "Boycott Hell" which
I think most people would agree has really sub-par lyrics (I was thinking
of a different adjective and then thought better of it). In any event,
Steve Taylor appended a pseudo-rap at the end of the Newsboys cover
talking about boycotting dumb lyrics along with hell--a pretty pointed
reference to D&K. The entire rap, which I do find pretty amusing, can be
found in Andrew Taylor's
amazing collection of Steve Taylor info. Darn, I've lost the web
address. Someone help me out, please.
>My son recently bought a Newboys CD and was asking me why there's a line
>in "Shine" about schizophrenics turning in their crayons. It strikes me
>that here's a group with precious little room to throw stones about
>dumb lyrics!
Actually, the line on that album that really gets me is:
"I want to preach the Word
they want massages
I check chapter and verse
they check their watches"
J Robert
Joshua M Prins
>Not to reopen old wounds, but could someone recap for me an old thread
>regarding Steve Taylor, the Newsboys, and a lyric rap section of "Boycott
>Hell" regarding the boycotting of dumb lyrics? Who was this taking a poke
>that ST had apologized to the target artist(s)? What has this lyric been
>changed to in current Newsboys renditions of the song?
>
>in "Shine" about schizophrenics turning in their crayons. It strikes me
>that here's a group with precious little room to throw stones about
>dumb lyrics!
Steve has apologized a number of times for writing the rap to Boycott Hell. In
a fairly recent issue of Syndicate Magazine, he said something to the effect
that DeGarmo and Key were much more mature about the whole thing than he was,
and that he was "embarresed."
That said, Steve Taylor is the best lyricist in Christian Music and one of the
best in any genre. What the lines about the schizophrenics turning in their
crayons and the bouncer taking ballet and all the other seemingly absurd lines
in "Shine" are showing is God's ability to take anyone, no matter how low or
deceitful or un-Christian like they are, and turn them into a true, forgiven,
believer in Jesus Christ. And even though, for some people, it would seem as
likely for them to turn into a believer in God as a dictator to teach his
people origami, all things are possible in God.
--
Matthew "Jojo" Prins
mr...@iastate.edu
"It's me I would label out of the ordinary."--Matt Slocum (Sixpence None the
Richer)
Jacqueline Kowtko
>best in any genre. What the lines about the schizophrenics turning in their
>crayons and the bouncer taking ballet and all the other seemingly absurd lines
I knew a university football player that took ballet. oh, this is a
bit of a tangent...
>in "Shine" are showing is God's ability to take anyone, no matter how low or
>deceitful or un-Christian like they are, and turn them into a true, forgiven,
>believer in Jesus Christ. And even though, for some people, it would seem as
>likely for them to turn into a believer in God as a dictator to teach his
>people origami,
> all things are possible in God.
Amen.
--
-- --
Jacqueline Kowtko University of Edinburgh, Scotland
-- --
Mark Mayhle
>mma...@interstate.net (Mark Mayhle) wrote:
>>
>>My son recently bought a Newsboys CD and was asking me why there's a line
>>in "Shine" about schizophrenics turning in their crayons. It strikes me
>>that here's a group with precious little room to throw stones about
>>dumb lyrics!
>
>Steve has apologized a number of times for writing the rap to Boycott Hell. In
>a fairly recent issue of Syndicate Magazine, he said something to the effect
>that DeGarmo and Key were much more mature about the whole thing than he was,
>and that he was "embarresed."
>
>best in any genre. What the lines about the schizophrenics turning in their
>crayons and the bouncer taking ballet and all the other seemingly absurd lines
Perhaps you misapprehended my comment. I understand the meaning of the lyrics
in "Shine". However, none of the schizophrenics I've known had any particular
interest in crayons, so the metaphor falls flat on its face. To be honest
I didn't even realize when I made the original post that ST wrote the lyrics
to "Shine;" he writes some good lyrics but that happens to be a really,
really dumb one.
As to whether he's the best lyricist in "Christian Music," I guess that
depends on how you define your terms. I would take exception, however. He
doesn't hold a candle (IMHO) to Mark Heard, who was a true poet. If you want
to insist on someone who's alive, Bruce Cockburn is also much more of a poet
although clearly outside the Christian music "industry."
(PS... Mr Taylor, I know you're sometimes out there reading this stuff...
really like your music! Honest! Hey, Bruce Cockburn's line about the
moon "squatting so close over us you'd think she was trying to hatch us"
is kinda dumb too!)
Mark Mayhle
mma...@interstate.net
Andrew D. Taylor
In article <DBL42...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
>>Not to reopen old wounds, but could someone recap for me an old thread
>>regarding Steve Taylor, the Newsboys, and a lyric rap section of "Boycott
>>Hell" regarding the boycotting of dumb lyrics? Who was this taking a poke
>>at? Did it refer to some lyric in particular?
>
>I think most people would agree has really sub-par lyrics (I was thinking
>of a different adjective and then thought better of it). In any event,
>Steve Taylor appended a pseudo-rap at the end of the Newsboys cover
>talking about boycotting dumb lyrics along with hell--a pretty pointed
>reference to D&K. The entire rap, which I do find pretty amusing, can be
>found in Andrew Taylor's
>amazing collection of Steve Taylor info. Darn, I've lost the web
>address. Someone help me out, please.
It's a real long URL. My home page (URL in sig) has a link to it under
the heading Things I Maintain for the Internet. It's called QRSTUV - The
Quantitative Roland Stephen Taylor Ubiquitous Volume.
Later,
__ __
/_/\/\ Andrew D. Taylor <af...@freenet.carleton.ca> /\/\_\
\_\ / Ottawa, Ontario, Canada \ /_/
/_/ \ / \_\
\_\/\ \ Host, Song For You - CKCU-FM 93.1 / /\/_/
\_\/ Online Information Manager, CHRI - Christian Hit Radio Inc. \/_/
Student, Mechanical Engineering, Carleton University
Treasurer, MECHS - Carleton Mechanical Engineering Society
GoofyTN23
poetry...don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Mark Heard...but
what makes Steve the best is is guts to "Tell it like it is" Steve pulls
no punches and gets his points across QUITE well....also his lyrics are a
reflection of the times....they relate to the way things are in the world
at the time......
Goof
Chip Howard
: Perhaps you misapprehended my comment. I understand the meaning of the
: in "Shine". However, none of the schizophrenics I've known had any
particular
: interest in crayons, so the metaphor falls flat on its face. To be honest
: I didn't even realize when I made the original post that ST wrote the lyrics
: to "Shine;" he writes some good lyrics but that happens to be a really,
: really dumb one.
: As to whether he's the best lyricist in "Christian Music," I guess that
: depends on how you define your terms. I would take exception, however. He
: doesn't hold a candle (IMHO) to Mark Heard, who was a true poet.
If you want
: to insist on someone who's alive, Bruce Cockburn is also much more of a poet
: although clearly outside the Christian music "industry."
LIAR! BLASPHEMER! PROFANER! IGNORAMOUS!
(thank God for my thesaraus :))
Then again, this is just my opinion :)
-Chip
: Mark Mayhle
: mma...@interstate.net
--
-I get weary
Lord, I don't understand
How does a seed get strangled in the heart of a man
then the music covers like an evening mist
like a watch still ticking on a dead man's wrist
tick away
-Steve Taylor
Chip Howard
cho...@moose.uvm.edu
cho...@salus.med.uvm.edu
Jeffrey Parks
Douglas C Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>i tend to think he's getting better about his dated-ness. okay, maybe the
>pop-grunge tunes on _squint_ have another two months left before they sound
>passe' passe' (as opposed to merely passe', which is where it's at now). but
>there are no less than four songs ("Jesus is for losers"," "the finish line,"
>"curses," "sock heaven") that lyrically are leaning more towards universal
>truth and less towards current events stuff.
Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. Songs that I think are still just as
relevant, and will be for a long time (unfortunately):
Clone, Whatever Happened to Sin, Meltdown (the references might be dated
but the song's not), Colour Code (same thing, unfortunately), Sin for
a Season, Guilty by Association (as the thread on that lunatic has so
painfully shown), Hero, Jenny, Baby Doe, This Disco, To Forgive, You've
Been Bought (as long as there are rock stars), I Manipulate (as long as
there are church leaders), Drive, He Said, I Just Wanna Know, What is
the Measure of Your Success, Jim Morrison's Grave, Svengali, Innocence
Lost, A Principled Man, Harder to Believe.
And songs from Squint that Chuck missed: Easy Listening (yes, he'll
still be able to sing this 20 years from now, mark my words) and Cash
Cow.
There are a whole bunch of other songs which have universal themes but
some of the references will date themselves. I decided not to use those,
although I arguably could.
Then let's not forget the prophetic quality of some of Taylor's work.
Jung and the Restless has become even more relevant in the years since
it was written. As rock star after rock star passes, Jim Morrison's
Grave strikes me as right on. And the king of them all, On the Fritz
was written *before* any of the scandals but it sounds like it was
written after them, almost as if Steve had gone forward in time.
Besides, using up-to-date references and themes helps Steve avoid
some of the problems I see with people like VoL where many of the songs
talk about the same thing over and over. Don't get me wrong. I love
VoL. But you gotta admit there's a lot more variety in Taylor's work,
lyrically and musically.
J Robert
who can't believe how hot he is at 8:30 in the morning!!
J. Streck
>Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. Songs that I think are still just as
>relevant, and will be for a long time (unfortunately):
>Clone, Whatever Happened to Sin, Meltdown (the references might be dated
>but the song's not), Colour Code (same thing, unfortunately), Sin for
>a Season, Guilty by Association (as the thread on that lunatic has so
>painfully shown), Hero, Jenny, Baby Doe, This Disco, To Forgive, You've
>Been Bought (as long as there are rock stars), I Manipulate (as long as
>there are church leaders), Drive, He Said, I Just Wanna Know, What is
>the Measure of Your Success, Jim Morrison's Grave, Svengali, Innocence
>Lost, A Principled Man, Harder to Believe.
Well, this all comes down to opinion, but you still haven't convinced me.
Unless I were feeling nostalgic, there are only one or two of those songs
on your list that I would listen to today. But that's okay. I'm not really
sure rock and roll was meant to be lasting, anyway.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Jeffrey Parks
J. Streck <jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
>Well, this all comes down to opinion, but you still haven't convinced me.
>Unless I were feeling nostalgic, there are only one or two of those songs
>on your list that I would listen to today. But that's okay. I'm not really
>sure rock and roll was meant to be lasting, anyway.
Actually, John, maybe you should rephrase your objection. I may
have missed it. I was responding to your thought that Steve's songs
were too topical and, therefore, were not very relevant after a
period of time. I was just trying to show that there are a number,
probably 2/3 of the total output, where that is not the case. I
may have misunderstood your "concern," however.
If I understood correctly, I'd be curious as to which of the above
songs you don't find relevant anymore. This is a genuine question,
btw.
J Robert
J. Streck
>....also his lyrics are a reflection of the times....they relate to the
>way things are in the world at the time......
Interesting. I find this to be one of my biggest problems with Taylor's
lyrics. As times change, the topical has a tendency to seem extremely
dated (particularly when combined with trendy music), and I find a Steve
Taylor album has, for me, about a nine month shelf life.
Personally, I'll take the eternal and universal over the topical and
particular any day.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Douglas C Pearson
(GoofyTN23):
>>....also his lyrics are a reflection of the times....they relate to the
>>way things are in the world at the time......
>
>Interesting. I find this to be one of my biggest problems with Taylor's
>lyrics. As times change, the topical has a tendency to seem extremely
>dated (particularly when combined with trendy music), and I find a Steve
>Taylor album has, for me, about a nine month shelf life.
>Personally, I'll take the eternal and universal over the topical and
>particular any day.
yeah, but what's wrong with taking both? 8-)
i tend to think he's getting better about his dated-ness. okay, maybe the
pop-grunge tunes on _squint_ have another two months left before they sound
passe' passe' (as opposed to merely passe', which is where it's at now). but
there are no less than four songs ("Jesus is for losers"," "the finish line,"
"curses," "sock heaven") that lyrically are leaning more towards universal
truth and less towards current events stuff. and even the current events stuff
(like "smug" and "the lament...") mentions stuff like "getting in touch with my
effeminate side" and "politically koresh-ed" only in passing...
but these are worries, of course, that you don't tend to run into with
vigilantes of love songs....
chuck
--
chuck pearson - dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program, bio113 head ta, daddy of amelia catherine pearson.
J. Streck
>If I understood correctly, I'd be curious as to which of the above
>songs you don't find relevant anymore. This is a genuine question,
>btw.
Oh, man, this is going to get me royally barbecued. Okay, here's my blow
by blow critique of the song's you listed. Note, however, that all of this
is PERSONAL OPINION -- i.e., it is rooted in my own connection with the
world and, more particularly, with the evangelical subculture. Your
mileage not only may vary, I all but guarantee it will. Thus, while I'm
more than happy to discuss these opinions, I am not interested in either
a) proving I'm "right," or b) admitting I'm "wrong." Those terms just don't
apply here.
"Clone" -- True, in some cases churches may still be looking for
clones, but as the people on this group amply illustrate, I think there is
more variety within Christian culture than this song suggests.
"Whatever Happened to Sin" -- There was no doubt a time when I would have
manifested the proper amount of righteous indignation and sung along on
this one. At this point, however, I find it a rather glib statement in
response to some rather difficult issues. Personally, think the people who
are attempting to determine the Christian response to the issues in this
song -- e.g., abortion, homosexuality, etc. -- are doing so not out of an
effort to justify sin, but rather in an honest quest to come as close as
possible to the truth. I find the song more hurtful than truthful.
"Meltdown" -- You stated that "the references might be dated but the song's
not," but to my mind the references make, and therefore destroy, the
song.
"Colour Code" -- Okay, here's where it gets more difficult. Obviously,
racism is still a problem in the church, and hence the song is still
applicable in that regard. However, I find the music in this one so dated
it's hard to even get to the lyrics.
"Sin for a Season" -- This one never really worked for me. The story
lines just seemed a tad forced.
"Guilty by Association" -- Well, threads on Tilton notwithstanding, I
think the televangelism thing has pretty much played itself out.
"Hero" -- Here's where I offend 90% of the Steve Taylor fans: I have never
liked this song.
"Jenny" -- To be honest, I can't even remember this one.
"Baby Doe" -- Again, an extremely old reference (even if the attitude
which underlies it persists).
"This Disco" -- Well, even allowing for the dopey, er, dated, music, it's
been a long time since I've been a part of a church that fits the model
described in the song.
"To Forgive" -- Admirable sentiment, and one I hope persists, however, as
with "Baby Doe" the reference is rather dated.
"You've Been Bought," "I Manipulate," "Drive, He Said" -- All songs I
never liked.
"I Just Wanna Know" -- Okay, this one I think I'd listen to today if I
were feeling particularly evangelistic. If I were feeling particularly
unevangelistic, however, I might criticize it for a rather limited view
of our role on this planet.
"What is the Measure of Your Success" -- This one I could listen to.
"Jim Morrison's Grave" -- This one I even like. It works great on a mixed
tape when preceded by The Swirling Eddies "The Unsuccessful Dutch
Missionary" (provided you time it so the thwack of the arrow segues
perfectly into the opening drum shots on "Jim").
"Svengali" -- A tad heavy-handed, don't you think?
"Innocence Lost" -- This one I really liked when I first heard it, but
one which has aged rather quickly. Like "Sin for a Season" the story line
seems a tad simplistic.
"A Principled Man" -- Another one I could listen to.
"Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
I mean, everyone talks about "Jesus is for Losers" or "The Finish Line"
choking them up, but I just get bored.
I think I'll go hunt up my fire-retardant pajamas now...
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Douglas C Pearson
think you make an EXCELLENT music snob. 8-) (please, don't read any negative
connotations into that...)
i think the primary disagreement between john and the j. robert (and myself) is
our attitude about steve's ballads. "the finish line" does choke me up. i
don't think it's forced at all...i've seen people like that, and even thinking
about such things messes up my emotions. i've got similar feelings about
"harder to believe than not to" and "bouquet"...anyway, that's just an agree-
to-disagree kind of thing, i think.
anyway, thanks for the analysis, john. (i don't even think of breaking out my
flamethrower for one of your posts...)
Jason Steiner
>
> Oh, man, this is going to get me royally barbecued. Okay, here's my blow
> by blow critique of the song's you listed.
>
> clones, but as the people on this group amply illustrate, I think there is
> more variety within Christian culture than this song suggests.
eh? how do you adequately reflect the entire Christian culture in one
3 minute song? having grown up fundamentalist, i think "Clone" is
one of the more accurate Taylor songs.
> "Whatever Happened to Sin" -- There was no doubt a time when I would have
> manifested the proper amount of righteous indignation and sung along on
> this one. At this point, however, I find it a rather glib statement in
> response to some rather difficult issues. Personally, think the people who
> are attempting to determine the Christian response to the issues in this
> song -- e.g., abortion, homosexuality, etc. -- are doing so not out of an
> effort to justify sin, but rather in an honest quest to come as close as
> possible to the truth. I find the song more hurtful than truthful.
i agree. it's Steve at his least Polished.
> "Meltdown" -- You stated that "the references might be dated but the song's
> not," but to my mind the references make, and therefore destroy, the
> song.
the references don't make the song, Steve's wiggling eyebrows in the
video do. ;:)
> "Colour Code" -- Okay, here's where it gets more difficult. Obviously,
> racism is still a problem in the church, and hence the song is still
> applicable in that regard. However, I find the music in this one so dated
> it's hard to even get to the lyrics.
agreed.
> "Sin for a Season" -- This one never really worked for me. The story
> lines just seemed a tad forced.
i liked it. the story lines happen all the time, and i see the logic
used so often that i don't think this song will ever be dated.
> "Guilty by Association" -- Well, threads on Tilton notwithstanding, I
> think the televangelism thing has pretty much played itself out.
yeah, but Steve was there FIRST. and as the recent "Rock 'n Roll is evil"
tracts have shown, we'll always have our Brylcreem prophets.
> "Hero" -- Here's where I offend 90% of the Steve Taylor fans: I have never
> liked this song.
i didn't like it much at first, but i find myself humming it now. (and
i don't even own a copy of that CD.)
> "Jenny" -- To be honest, I can't even remember this one.
...shanty town girl from the wrong end of the tracks... a little
forced, but catchy.
> "Baby Doe" -- Again, an extremely old reference (even if the attitude
> which underlies it persists).
an old reference is fine, so long as it stays in the public mind.
maybe i'm just strange, but i think most people remember the incident.
still relevant.
> "This Disco" -- Well, even allowing for the dopey, er, dated, music, it's
> been a long time since I've been a part of a church that fits the model
> described in the song.
but they still exist.
> "To Forgive" -- Admirable sentiment, and one I hope persists, however, as
> with "Baby Doe" the reference is rather dated.
never did like that one much...
> "You've Been Bought," "I Manipulate," "Drive, He Said" -- All songs I
> never liked.
aaaaarrrrgh! these are some of the best Taylor songs ever!
none of them are particularly dated. in fact, they're all still extremely
relevant.
"I Manipulate" is quite possibly the best thing anyone's ever written
about Bill Gothard. i suffered from that man's teachings and that
song got me through some very tough times. (someone understands!)
Steve doesn't actually name names though, so it will stay relevant
as long as there are manipulative hucksters out there.
"Drive, He Said" is a wee bit silly, but has some of the sharpest,
funniest lines in CCM. "Besides, I kinda' like the velour seatcovers."
you can fit the whole whitewashed tombs sermon into that one line.
> "I Just Wanna Know" -- Okay, this one I think I'd listen to today if I
> were feeling particularly evangelistic. If I were feeling particularly
> unevangelistic, however, I might criticize it for a rather limited view
> of our role on this planet.
forced. not very good musically.
> "What is the Measure of Your Success" -- This one I could listen to.
great guitars.
> "Jim Morrison's Grave" -- This one I even like. It works great on a mixed
> tape when preceded by The Swirling Eddies "The Unsuccessful Dutch
> Missionary" (provided you time it so the thwack of the arrow segues
> perfectly into the opening drum shots on "Jim").
one of the best.
> "Svengali" -- A tad heavy-handed, don't you think?
what, you expect Steve to be SUBTLE?
> "Innocence Lost" -- This one I really liked when I first heard it, but
> one which has aged rather quickly. Like "Sin for a Season" the story line
> seems a tad simplistic.
it's a 4 minute song, we're not talking War and Peace here.
> "A Principled Man" -- Another one I could listen to.
hmm. so-so. Steve's uplifting sermons don't work as well too well.
(frankly, i don't know any artists who can pull it off.)
> "Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
> think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
i like this one for one line, but other than that...
> I think I'll go hunt up my fire-retardant pajamas now...
much as i love Steve Taylor, it turns out i mostly agree with you.
many of the points where we disagree are ones where i've seen the
stuff he's talking about first-hand. you've apparently been more lucky
than me in that regard.
jason
J. Streck
>it's a 4 minute song, we're not talking War and Peace here.
For the most part, I think chuck has the right idea on all this: it's
pretty much agree-to-disagree, you-say-tomAto-I-say-tomAHto territory
we're travelling here. However, I would question this justification for
songs with simplistic story lines and characters. There are plenty of
songwriters out there who are able to generate three dimensional
characters within the limited confines of a pop song. Sure, a song's not
going to be able to compete with War and Peace, but that doesn't mean a
songwriter has to resort to cut-out characters a la Taylor's repentant
prisoner and angelic missionary.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Chip Howard
: Interesting. I find this to be one of my biggest problems with Taylor's
: dated (particularly when combined with trendy music), and I find a Steve
: Taylor album has, for me, about a nine month shelf life.
I realize that this is more of a personal opinion but I gotta disagree.
While yes, some of his (most of his) stuff can be considered dated when
you look at the first layer of lyrics... there is another layer under
that first layer that is universal. eg.- In "We Don't Need No Colour
Code", Steve Taylor is directly attacking South Africa and Bob Jones
University. Since that song first came out, South Africa has done much
to end segregation and racism, and no one really cares about Bob Jones
anymore (sorry... personal attack I know... to all you Bob Jones people
out there... WHAT ARE YOU DOING LISTENING TO CHRISTIAN ROCK IN THE FIRST
PLACE??? You shouldn't be paying attention to this newsgroup anyway so I
retract my apology because you are hypocritical Bob Jones'ers :). Does
This make the song less relevant... NO! It still speaks to a racist
Church and country and means much to me. And anyway... I like the funky
beat.
Wait a minute... I can't think of one song that Steve Taylor has written
that hasn't been as relevant today as it was when it was originally written.
If someone can give me an example though... I will personally mow their
lawn for the rest of the sum... well, then I'll make a public statement
that I was wrong.
: Personally, I'll take the eternal and universal over the topical and
: particular any day.
Same here... that's why I make everyday a Stevie day :)
: john streck
: jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
-Chip
chui christopher y
On Sat, 15 Jul 1995, Jeffrey Parks wrote:
> In article <3u7mnl$d...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
> Douglas C Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
> >i tend to think he's getting better about his dated-ness. okay, maybe the
> >pop-grunge tunes on _squint_ have another two months left before they sound
> >passe' passe' (as opposed to merely passe', which is where it's at now). but
> >there are no less than four songs ("Jesus is for losers"," "the finish line,"
> >"curses," "sock heaven") that lyrically are leaning more towards universal
> >truth and less towards current events stuff.
>
> Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. Songs that I think are still just as
> relevant, and will be for a long time (unfortunately):
> Clone, Whatever Happened to Sin, Meltdown (the references might be dated
> but the song's not), Colour Code (same thing, unfortunately), Sin for
> a Season, Guilty by Association (as the thread on that lunatic has so
> painfully shown), Hero, Jenny, Baby Doe, This Disco, To Forgive, You've
> Been Bought (as long as there are rock stars), I Manipulate (as long as
> there are church leaders), Drive, He Said, I Just Wanna Know, What is
> the Measure of Your Success, Jim Morrison's Grave, Svengali, Innocence
> Lost, A Principled Man, Harder to Believe.
>
> And songs from Squint that Chuck missed: Easy Listening (yes, he'll
> still be able to sing this 20 years from now, mark my words) and Cash
> Cow.
>
> There are a whole bunch of other songs which have universal themes but
> some of the references will date themselves. I decided not to use those,
> although I arguably could.
>
> Then let's not forget the prophetic quality of some of Taylor's work.
> Jung and the Restless has become even more relevant in the years since
> it was written. As rock star after rock star passes, Jim Morrison's
> Grave
I kind of agree. After all, since Steve Taylor was (and probabaly still is)
based out of the LA
area, he probabaly had some advance knowledge of the coming movie called
"The Doors". Strangley, Jim Morrison's Grave was written on the I
Predict 1990 album which was produced 2 years before The Doors film came
out . . . .am I right?-CC
Robert Davis
>
>jpa...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey Parks) writes:
>
>>If I understood correctly, I'd be curious as to which of the above
>>songs you don't find relevant anymore. This is a genuine question,
>>btw.
>
>is PERSONAL OPINION -- i.e., it is rooted in my own connection with the
>world and, more particularly, with the evangelical subculture. Your
>mileage not only may vary, I all but guarantee it will.
>
My problem with Taylor -- we've talked about this before, too -- is
that many, many of his songs are structured like jokes, complete with
stingers and rim shot-like music. And like comedy albums, even those
by the best comedians, his albums aren't funny after you've heard them
a hundred times.
The good thing is that Taylor has always championed high production
values and good taste in music (for the most part) -- I think he truly
recognizes good music and approaches his work as an art and with
healthy doses of humor, intelligence, and an adventurous spirit. And
he's a great showman at his concerts to this day. But I don't think
he'd defend the artistic merits of many of his own songs as much as
people in this newsgroup would (he's said as much in True Tunes News).
I'm pretty much with John on this one -- "Jim Morrison's Grave," the
chorus of "Jung and the Restless," and almost all of the Chagall album
are in permanent rotation at my place (in fact I might call "Violent
Blue" a desert island single), but I only put the others on when I'm
going through my high school yearbooks.
Rob
--
Robert Davis (da...@coaster.com) "Look up, Hannah."
Jeffrey Parks
to]
Hmmm. As the great Sesame Street skit used to go, "That shore was
different."
Actually, I understand your points. Yes, I disagree
with most. And, yes, that's largely because of our differing
perspectives and positions. I'm sure we could try to hash out some
non-relative way of judging lyrics but I suspect it wouldn't
be satisfying to anyone, even if we succeeded.
Lyrics, like comedy
I think, work for some and not for others merely because of our
past experiences. We may think certain things are practically
universal but that's only because most of us walk in pretty limited
circles.
One of the blessings of this newsgroup is having those
preconceptions blown away. BTW, I think this is relevant to the
Carman-bashing thread, too. I know people who came to Christ at a
Carman show, despite everyone's pious pronouncements that such a
thing was unlikely.
Thanks, John.
J Robert
Jeffrey Parks
those were great tunes. I was just saying that their lyrical content
didn't necessarily date them.
And now it's time for me to put on my flame-retardant gear. I do *not*
see what all the fuss is over Chagall. For me, it's easily the weakest
stuff Steve's ever done, lyrically and musically. Yeah, I listen to it
but only every few months.
J Robert
Jerry B. Ray
>One of the blessings of this newsgroup is having those
>preconceptions blown away. BTW, I think this is relevant to the
>Carman-bashing thread, too. I know people who came to Christ at a
>Carman show, despite everyone's pious pronouncements that such a
>thing was unlikely.
Hmm, I don't think I've seen anybody make a "pious pronouncement" that
it's unlikely for anybody to get saved at a Carman show. I think there's
been a lot of concern expressed about Carman's methods and political
agenda, and I think those concerns are valid.
JRjr
--
'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
Children growing up, old friends growing older
The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
##### vap...@prism.gatech.edu ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr. ################
Jerry B. Ray
>Sure, a song's not
>going to be able to compete with War and Peace, but that doesn't mean a
>songwriter has to resort to cut-out characters a la Taylor's repentant
>prisoner and angelic missionary.
I thought the use of "characters" in "Innocence Lost" was pretty cool.
It's one of my favorite Taylor songs. But I suppose it's just personal
opinion. I still say that _War_ is a _brain-numbingly_ better album
than _Achtung Baby_, after all. :-)
Jerry B. Ray
>And now it's time for me to put on my flame-retardant gear. I do *not*
>see what all the fuss is over Chagall. For me, it's easily the weakest
>stuff Steve's ever done, lyrically and musically. Yeah, I listen to it
>but only every few months.
And I agree with J Robert here. I don't see what the big deal about
Chagall Guevara is, either. The musical style doesn't grab my attention,
and I can't really bring myself to care about the lyrics. I'm glad I
own a copy, but it doesn't get pulled out very often...
Jerry B. Ray
[list of Steve Taylor songs deleted]
>Well, this all comes down to opinion, but you still haven't convinced me.
>Unless I were feeling nostalgic, there are only one or two of those songs
>on your list that I would listen to today. But that's okay. I'm not really
>sure rock and roll was meant to be lasting, anyway.
Why wouldn't you listen to them? Musical style? Lyrical content? I'm
curious why you regard Steve's stuff as so passe'.
I'm always curious when people (not necessarily John, just "people") love
music, but then quit listening to it when it gets "old." Why can't the
old and the new coexist? On a given drive to work, you'll find me
jamming to "Blue Moon," a song from the 1950s. Then I'll crank up
some Elastica or Green Day (and, hey, just because it's not "art" doesn't
mean that it's not fun to listen to...). Then I'll nearly run off the
road when "Come On Eileen" comes on. And some good old disco from
Blondie or the BeeGees always has a place on my radio. So what's the
big deal about when a song came out, or how "dated" it sounds? If it's
fun to listen to, crank it up...
Jeffrey Parks
Jerry B. Ray <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>I thought the use of "characters" in "Innocence Lost" was pretty cool.
>It's one of my favorite Taylor songs. But I suppose it's just personal
>opinion. I still say that _War_ is a _brain-numbingly_ better album
>than _Achtung Baby_, after all. :-)
Well that goes without saying. ;-)
John, care to run through this thread again.
J Robert
Jeffrey Parks
>it's unlikely for anybody to get saved at a Carman show. I think there's
>been a lot of concern expressed about Carman's methods and political
>agenda, and I think those concerns are valid.
I'll repost the two most relevant ones.
a) But who are the people at his concerts? Quite honestly I can't
see anyone with any musical taste going to his concert unless they
were a christian - in which case they don't need to hear the
message of salvation.
b) Besides, it'd be awefully hard, I'd think, to get a large number of
non-believers to go to such a show.
The last one qualifies it with "large number" but the idea's still
the same. The only people going to such a show are incompetent
boobs who don't know good music from the lint in their belly-button.
J Robert
who wouldn't be caught dead in a Carman show but wishes people's
comments were leavened with a little bit of grace. Not everyone is
as cool as you.
Jojo
>In article <DBt9o...@midway.uchicago.edu> jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>And now it's time for me to put on my flame-retardant gear. I do *not*
>>see what all the fuss is over Chagall. For me, it's easily the weakest
>>stuff Steve's ever done, lyrically and musically. Yeah, I listen to it
>>but only every few months.
>
>And I agree with J Robert here. I don't see what the big deal about
>Chagall Guevara is, either. The musical style doesn't grab my attention,
>and I can't really bring myself to care about the lyrics. I'm glad I
>own a copy, but it doesn't get pulled out very often...
I think that it was easily the best album ST had put out to that point. This
lyrics were marvelous, the sound was only improved by being part of a complete
band, and . . .just everything about the album was spectactular (except maybe
"If It All Comes True"--okay song, but it doesn't work with Chagall Guevara).
--
Matthew "Jojo" Prins
mr...@iastate.edu
"It's me I would label out of the ordinary."--Matt Slocum (Sixpence None the
Richer"
J. Streck
>Why wouldn't you listen to them? Musical style? Lyrical content? I'm
>curious why you regard Steve's stuff as so passe'.
Didn't I just explain that in some detail?
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
J. Streck
>>It's one of my favorite Taylor songs. But I suppose it's just personal
>>opinion. I still say that _War_ is a _brain-numbingly_ better album
>>than _Achtung Baby_, after all. :-)
>Well that goes without saying. ;-)
>John, care to run through this thread again.
No.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Troy Miller
>>>way things are in the world at the time......
>>
>>lyrics. As times change, the topical has a tendency to seem extremely
>>dated (particularly when combined with trendy music), and I find a Steve
>>Taylor album has, for me, about a nine month shelf life.
>>particular any day.
As someone who's just been introduced to Steve's music/lyrics (and loves
it, BTW), since I was too young back in the 80's, from what I've seen, I
think his lyrics are still "undated".
"I wanna be a clone" still hits the spot, as does "Jim Morrison's grave"
and many others I think are still valid. (steeplechase, written
guarantee, watcha gonna do, harder to believe than not to)
Musically, I don't mind it too much, though I really enjoyed the new
stuff on the Tribute album.
Just my humble opinion, $.02, or whatever other disclaimer is
appropriate without having a big long spiel :)
Troy
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * STATE-OF-THE-ART -- a Latin term meaning "expensive"
Jerry B. Ray
>The last one qualifies it with "large number" but the idea's still
>the same. The only people going to such a show are incompetent
>boobs who don't know good music from the lint in their belly-button.
>who wouldn't be caught dead in a Carman show but wishes people's
>comments were leavened with a little bit of grace. Not everyone is
>as cool as you.
Well, actually, I think I wrote comment (b) (or something like it...). While
I don't think that you'd have to be an "incompetent boob" to go to a Carman
concert (I've been to a few myself), I doubt that people go out of their
way to see him for his musical and artistic prowess, either. And I also
doubt that many "unsaved" people would just pack up and head down to a
Carman concert without being talked into it by a Christian friend. That's
the sentiment I was trying to get across when I wrote something akin to
comment (b).
Logan Shaw
Jason Steiner <stei...@indirect.com> wrote:
>> "Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
>> think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
>
>i like this one for one line, but other than that...
Two interesting things about that song:
(a) there was a point several years ago where this song was sort of
the opposite of the straw the broke the camel's back for me -- it was
the one thing that gave me a barely-adequate teency little boost of
energy and determination in my walk when I was just about to ditch
Christianity altogether. If I ever meet Steve Taylor, I'm going to
tell him this. Strange thing is, I'm not even sure he he ever meant it
as an encouragement kind of song in the first place. But the images of
people struggling and a few not giving up were just what I needed to
know that I wasn't alone.
(b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
So maybe one day, up in Heaven, Steve Taylor will ask, "God, why did you
have my write that weird 'Harder to Believe' song? I mean, DID you have
me write that, or was I just off in my own little world?"
And God will answer, "Hmm, yeah - I knew you'd wonder about that one.
See there was this one guy named Logan (you'll eventually be meeting
him), and at the time you were writing that, he was going through this
stuff, and so I knew if he heard ..."
- Logan
--
"I was standin' at the corner / Of Houston and Lee T-Bone
Old lady walked up to me / Tried to help me cross the street Burnett
Come home / oh no, baby, come home "Come Home"
I'm pleadin' with you darlin' / Please don't leave me alone" _Truth_Decay_
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Chip Howard <cho...@med.uvm.edu> wrote:
>LIAR! BLASPHEMER! PROFANER! IGNORAMOUS!
>(thank God for my thesaraus :))
Uhm, if you were using an.. uhm.. "thesaraus" you might at least
have spelt "ignoramus"... Oh well.. what do I expect from support
for an English major anyway? ;)
(Note: I often type too fast as well, yes..)
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Jerry B. Ray
>"Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
>think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
>I mean, everyone talks about "Jesus is for Losers" or "The Finish Line"
>choking them up, but I just get bored.
Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. "Jesus Is For Losers" and
"Harder To Believe" have never done anything for me. And I've
_really_ tried to get into "The Finish Line," since everybody tells me
how great it is, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
Jerry B. Ray
>>Why wouldn't you listen to them? Musical style? Lyrical content? I'm
>>curious why you regard Steve's stuff as so passe'.
>Didn't I just explain that in some detail?
Sorry, my newsfeed's been wonky, getting stuff all out of order. Your
post about the individual songs only showed up this morning. Cut me
some slack.
Douglas C Pearson
> (a) there was a point several years ago where this song was sort of
>the opposite of the straw the broke the camel's back for me -- it was
>the one thing that gave me a barely-adequate teency little boost of
>energy and determination in my walk when I was just about to ditch
>Christianity altogether. If I ever meet Steve Taylor, I'm going to
>tell him this. Strange thing is, I'm not even sure he he ever meant it
>as an encouragement kind of song in the first place. But the images of
>people struggling and a few not giving up were just what I needed to
>know that I wasn't alone.
>
> (b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
>
>So maybe one day, up in Heaven, Steve Taylor will ask, "God, why did you
>have my write that weird 'Harder to Believe' song? I mean, DID you have
>me write that, or was I just off in my own little world?"
>And God will answer, "Hmm, yeah - I knew you'd wonder about that one.
>See there was this one guy named Logan (you'll eventually be meeting
>him), and at the time you were writing that, he was going through this
>stuff, and so I knew if he heard ..."
hey logan,
there are two of us, at least.
Matthew Laswell
> In article <jstreck....@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (J. Streck) writes:
> [list of Steve Taylor songs deleted]
> >Well, this all comes down to opinion, but you still haven't convinced me.
> >Unless I were feeling nostalgic, there are only one or two of those songs
> >on your list that I would listen to today. But that's okay. I'm not really
> >sure rock and roll was meant to be lasting, anyway.
> Why wouldn't you listen to them? Musical style? Lyrical content? I'm
> curious why you regard Steve's stuff as so passe'.
I must admit I find the musical style and some of the lyrics from the older
Steve stuff dated at times. On the other hand, one of the things I really
love about Steve is that as I look over the catalog (and I _do_ have it all,
save the transatlantic remixes and the Pump Up the Volume soundtrack), I
find him getting consistently better, lyrically and musically. The earlier
stuff shows glimpses of talent, but is often unfocused (c.f. Bad Rap, Guilty
By Association) or hokey (c.f. Lifeboat - my least favorite Steve song
possibly, though I liked it at the time). Album by album, he matures and
improves.
> I'm always curious when people (not necessarily John, just "people") love
> music, but then quit listening to it when it gets "old." Why can't the
> old and the new coexist? On a given drive to work, you'll find me
> jamming to "Blue Moon," a song from the 1950s. Then I'll crank up
> some Elastica or Green Day (and, hey, just because it's not "art" doesn't
> mean that it's not fun to listen to...). Then I'll nearly run off the
> road when "Come On Eileen" comes on. And some good old disco from
> Blondie or the BeeGees always has a place on my radio. So what's the
> big deal about when a song came out, or how "dated" it sounds? If it's
> fun to listen to, crank it up...
Well, yes, Jerry, but what about all of the songs that peaked at, say,
32 on the charts in the early 80s? The stuff that was a poor imitation
of the ground-breaking, top groups of the day? The poor corporate rock
attempts at a Clash sound-alike? You might not enjoy that so much, nez
pas?
Of course, I believe that having "Hit the Road Jack" come on while getting
on the freeway to leave town for a vacation is proof of the existence of
a benevolent God...
Now woman, oh woman doncha treat me thisa way, cause I'll be back on my
feet someday...
- matt l.
mat...@comm.mot.com
Not necessarily Motorola's opinion
Chip Howard
words. I used a Thesaraus, not a Dictionary. I realize they are
interchangable at times, but not for us Nursing majors. We leave correct
spelling to English majors and just figure that semantically everyone
will understand what we are writing. My problem is not really typing too
fast so much as it is not really caring whether it's spelt correctly or
not, as long as everyone can understand what I'm trying to say (more or
less anyway).
-Chip
aka the idiot speller :)
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
(jtig...@artemis.wi.leidenuniv.nl)
wrote: : In article <1995Jul14.2...@emba.uvm.edu>,
: --
: --Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
: Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
--
Matthew Laswell
> Logan Shaw <lo...@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> wrote:
> > (a) there was a point several years ago where this song was sort of
> >the opposite of the straw the broke the camel's back for me -- it was
> >the one thing that gave me a barely-adequate teency little boost of
> >energy and determination in my walk when I was just about to ditch
> >Christianity altogether. If I ever meet Steve Taylor, I'm going to
> >tell him this. Strange thing is, I'm not even sure he he ever meant it
> >as an encouragement kind of song in the first place. But the images of
> >people struggling and a few not giving up were just what I needed to
> >know that I wasn't alone.
> >
> > (b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
> >
> >So maybe one day, up in Heaven, Steve Taylor will ask, "God, why did you
> >have my write that weird 'Harder to Believe' song? I mean, DID you have
> >me write that, or was I just off in my own little world?"
> >And God will answer, "Hmm, yeah - I knew you'd wonder about that one.
> >See there was this one guy named Logan (you'll eventually be meeting
> >him), and at the time you were writing that, he was going through this
> >stuff, and so I knew if he heard ..."
> hey logan,
> there are two of us, at least.
Uhh, make that three...
Helped me get over a nasty mix of Barney theology and depression.
- matt l.
mat...@comm.mot.com
Not necessarily Motorola's opinion.
Jerry B. Ray
>Well, this has got to be the most long winded, wothless thread ever.
Stick around. I'm sure will come up with something more "long winded"
and "wothless."
>Why don't you guys get a Life!
Tried it, didn't work. Now I just post a lot.
>I hit the rmc once a month or
>so and you guys are getting dreary.
Simple solution: don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
>Gosh this is boring, repulsive and downright boring!
And this is repetitive, pointless, and repetitive.
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Chip Howard <cho...@med.uvm.edu> wrote:
>My purpose wasn't to spell things correctly, it was to come up with cool
>words.
Cool words? You put things in CAPS and think they're cool words? I'd say
it sounded pretty heated..
> I used a Thesaraus, not a Dictionary.
Ah yeah... a "diction-ary" prescribes the proper phonemes, right? Sorry..
> I realize they are
>interchangable at times, but not for us Nursing majors.
Alright, alright, I shouldn't've interchang`ed 'em..
> We leave correct
>spelling to English majors and just figure that semantically everyone
>will understand what we are writing.
Yeahbut, yeahbut... you see, English majors do not, like us maths majors,
grasp misspellings... so we, semantical/syntactical wizards that we are
just gotta clarify for their sakes, ya know..
[To avoid angry email: yeah, that's a _thesaurus_ we're talking about, and
I guess I shouldn't have joked about it, but clarified that right away.
Sorry, okay?]
> My problem is not really typing too
>fast so much as it is not really caring whether it's spelt correctly or
>not, as long as everyone can understand what I'm trying to say (more or
>less anyway).
And you don't think that that could semantically be described as "type
too fast"? C'mon... I was admitting to being lazy there too, so..
>-Chip
>aka the idiot speller :)
Hey, I can do that too: i-d-i-o-t! ;)
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Jeffrey Parks <jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Ahh, now I understand the problem. You see, if it's not spelled right, we
>English majors can't figure it out period. remember when your high school
Now, now, relax, just leave figuring to us math majors, okay? But please
be a more considerate to your fellow-st.. uhm.. analytically challenged
English majors... I mean.. look what you've been doing.. "figure it
out period. remember when"... how is that to be read, anyway? What is an
"out period. remember"???
>At least that's the excuse I use on this newsgroup. :-)
Well, sounds as good an XQXQXQ as any..
>J Robert
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Dale Quigg
[lots of his opinions]
>
>"Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
>think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
>I mean, everyone talks about "Jesus is for Losers" or "The Finish Line"
>choking them up, but I just get bored.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Oh John, (rending garments) I fall in ashes and beg that God
will forgive you for this blasphemy. ;) ;)
But really, I think that "The Finish Line" is one of the _best_
songs of all time. It just sends chills up my spine to get
a glimpse of the depth and magnitude of God's love and forgiveness.
>
>I think I'll go hunt up my fire-retardant pajamas now...
Later Chuck wrote:
>- thanks for the analysis, john. (i don't even think of breaking out my
>- flamethrower for one of your posts...)
>-
>-chuck
Well, _I'll_ be lenient _this_ time if Chuck is... ;)
--
- Dale
"I don't think math is a science, I think it's a religion." - Calvin (&Hobbes)
Jeffrey Parks
Chip Howard <cho...@med.uvm.edu> wrote:
>We leave correct
>spelling to English majors and just figure that semantically everyone
>will understand what we are writing.
Ahh, now I understand the problem. You see, if it's not spelled right, we
English majors can't figure it out period. remember when your high school
English teacher said, "If there are any misspelled words, I'm not reading
it"? It's not because he wouldn't, it's because he couldn't.
At least that's the excuse I use on this newsgroup. :-)
J Robert
Kirby S. Sewell
of his wit! Why don't you guys get a Life! I hit the rmc once a month or
so and you guys are getting dreary. Get out and walk the dog, shoot the
breeze go get a beer for God's sake with your next door neighbour. Gosh
Kirby
kse...@freenet.calgary,ab,ca
Poor Old Steve <><
WONKY!!!
Jerry, I take back everything I ever said about you... wow... wonky.
poor old steve <><
Poor Old Steve <><
> hey logan,
>
> there are two of us, at least.
>
hey chuck,
there are three of us, at least.
poor old steve <><
Chris Kalmbacher
Chip Howard <cho...@med.uvm.edu> wrote:
>J. Streck (jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu) wrote:
>: Interesting. I find this to be one of my biggest problems with Taylor's
>: dated (particularly when combined with trendy music), and I find a Steve
>: Taylor album has, for me, about a nine month shelf life.
>
>While yes, some of his (most of his) stuff can be considered dated when
>you look at the first layer of lyrics... there is another layer under
>that first layer that is universal. eg.- In "We Don't Need No Colour
>Code", Steve Taylor is directly attacking South Africa and Bob Jones
>University. Since that song first came out, South Africa has done much
>to end segregation and racism, and no one really cares about Bob Jones
I agree completely. At first glance, some of Steve's songs make
references to "topical" things, like Bob Jones, or Robert Tilton, but I
think there is a much deeper layer of meaning in all of his songs that is
conveyed. Does racism still exist, particularly in the church? I think
the answer is yes, so until racism is wiped out in the church, the song
Color Code is current (and in my opinion needed!). Does greed still
exist, particularly in the church? Absolutely....who ever thought it was
going away? Steve does not write songs about events or people, but
sometimes people or events assist in making the point of a universal
truth.
I am sure racism and greed existed thousands of years ago, and unless
Christ returns, they will exist for thousands more.
Hmmmm....What else is "topical" about Steve's songs? _Sock Heaven_?
Well...maybe when dryers go out of style so will this song, but until
then....What else? _Jim Morrison's Grave_? Well, maybe, but I think it
will be a long time before people forget who JM was, or his influence
wains on rock culture. I think if you take a look, you will be hard
pressed to find a Steve Taylor song which does not have lasting potential.
I think _I wanna be a clone_ is a prime example. I find the bulk of
evangelical Christianity wants a mold, and is still closed to individual
differences and expression. Why does the Cstone fest still stand out?
Do you think that the bulk of "evangelical" Christianity would approve of
Cstone or send their youth there?
_Bannerman_ is another good example. Do you think that football games
will end anytime soon? Do you see the trend ending anytime soon? Is the
NFL going to dissolve in nine months? (heavy sarcasm, not intended as a
flame....:) The general theme of sharing the gospel through unusal is a
timeless message, and it is fun to boot.
Look at the other early stuff (pre-Squint), and it all is great music
with thought-provoking messages. _I blew up the clinic real good_ is a
prime example. Look at the headlines....people have now upped the ante'
to include killing the abortionists, but the theme/message is the same.
I don't know what you listen to, but you are way off on Steve's
temporal-ness. He is not writing dated, time-locked lyrics. I certainly
see more than 9 months for Steve's durablility.
I find many of the "timeless" lyrics which describe "God's love" or such
to be just a run through the fluff with little meaning attached. I would
rather have fun music, with thought-provoking lyrics. I would really
appreciate some "examples" of his time-locked, dated, lyrics.
Peace
Chris
--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Chris Kalmbacher Psychology/Neuroscience University of Delaware
Email: Chr...@strauss.udel.edu
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Ed Rock
> Ahh, now I understand the problem. You see, if it's not spelled right, we
> English majors can't figure it out period. remember when your high school
> English teacher said, "If there are any misspelled words, I'm not reading
> it"? It's not because he wouldn't, it's because he couldn't.
Does that apply to issues of capitalization as well?
<ducking>
Ed Rock | "That's life.
aka Ed Crabtree | Get over it."
ercr...@email.unc.edu | --Ojo Taylor
Ed Rocks the Web http://ecsvax.uncecs.edu/~ecrab/
J. Streck
>Does anyone know who sang lead on that song ["If It All Comes True"]? I
>don't have a very discerning ear, but that certainly doesn't sound like
>Steve. Is it Dave Perkins?
Yeah, it was Dave.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
J. Streck
>Look at the other early stuff (pre-Squint), and it all is great music
>with thought-provoking messages. _I blew up the clinic real good_ is a
>prime example. Look at the headlines....people have now upped the ante'
>to include killing the abortionists, but the theme/message is the same.
>I don't know what you listen to, but you are way off on Steve's
>temporal-ness. He is not writing dated, time-locked lyrics. I certainly
>see more than 9 months for Steve's durablility.
As I said, it's a matter of opinion. I don't think it's great music, and
I don't think the lyrics are timeless. I am also well aware that I am in
a rather small minority (of probably one or two) on this one.
>I find many of the "timeless" lyrics which describe "God's love" or such
>to be just a run through the fluff with little meaning attached. I would
>rather have fun music, with thought-provoking lyrics. I would really
>appreciate some "examples" of his time-locked, dated, lyrics.
Already given in some detail. Moreover, just because I don't happen to
think Taylor is the lyrical genius most people do does not mean I am
arguing for fluff. Limited to the choice of the two, I'd take Taylor's
sloganeering over fluff anyday.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
J. Streck
>But, John, you don't have a similar affinity for the Gibster, do you? I
>never would have suspected such.
Not to worry, Ed. I've never been a fan of the Gibster.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Jerry B. Ray
>> Sorry, my newsfeed's been wonky, getting stuff all out of order.
> ~~~~~
>WONKY!!!
>Jerry, I take back everything I ever said about you... wow... wonky.
Hey, if I'd have know _that_ was all it took...
Jerry B. Ray
>Now, I can almost understand Jerry not caring for these songs. It's not
>really his fault. It's an environmental thing--a combination of way too
>much Debbie Gibson exposure and his car a/c not working during those hot
>Atlanta summers.
Heh. Been about 100 degrees for a couple of weeks. But you wanna know what's
funny? I drove my parents' air conditioned van to work Monday, and I still
rode home with the windows down...
Elizabeth Lindquist
In a previous article, mr...@iastate.edu (Jojo) says:
>"If It All Comes True"--okay song, but it doesn't work with Chagall Guevara).
>--
>Matthew "Jojo" Prins
>mr...@iastate.edu
>
Does anyone know who sang lead on that song? I don't have a very
discerning ear, but that certainly doesn't sound like Steve. Is it Dave
Perkins?
-Elizabeth
Ed Rock
[concerning "Harder to Believe"]
> (b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
>
> So maybe one day, up in Heaven, Steve Taylor will ask, "God, why did you
> have my write that weird 'Harder to Believe' song? I mean, DID you have
> me write that, or was I just off in my own little world?"
> And God will answer, "Hmm, yeah - I knew you'd wonder about that one.
> See there was this one guy named Logan (you'll eventually be meeting
> him), and at the time you were writing that, he was going through this
> stuff, and so I knew if he heard ..."
Me too. That one and most especially, "The Finish Line."
Ed (who has seldom met a Steve Taylor song he did not like) Rock
Ed Rock
> In article <jstreck....@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> J. Streck writes:
>
> >"Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
> >think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
> >I mean, everyone talks about "Jesus is for Losers" or "The Finish Line"
> >choking them up, but I just get bored.
>
> Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. "Jesus Is For Losers" and
> "Harder To Believe" have never done anything for me. And I've
> _really_ tried to get into "The Finish Line," since everybody tells me
> how great it is, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
Now, I can almost understand Jerry not caring for these songs. It's not
really his fault. It's an environmental thing--a combination of way too
much Debbie Gibson exposure and his car a/c not working during those hot
Atlanta summers.
But, John, you don't have a similar affinity for the Gibster, do you? I
never would have suspected such.
These are three of my favorites. Just thinking about "The Finish Line"
can get me choked up. If I were ever going to use the word anointed, it
would be for that song.
Different strokes...
Bill Dozier
B. Ray) wrote:
> In article <jstreck....@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (J. Streck) writes:
>
> >"Harder to Believe" -- And another one I never really liked. The more I
> >think about it, the more I think I just don't care for Taylor's ballads.
> >I mean, everyone talks about "Jesus is for Losers" or "The Finish Line"
> >choking them up, but I just get bored.
>
> Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. "Jesus Is For Losers" and
> "Harder To Believe" have never done anything for me. And I've
> _really_ tried to get into "The Finish Line," since everybody tells me
> how great it is, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
It's pretty hard to predict what song will generate a strong emotional reaction
with me, but "Jesus is for Losers," "The Finish Line," "Hero" and "Innocence
Lost" all do. I've always loved "Harder to Believe," but don't get emotional
about it. I don't know why or how these reactions occur. For instance, I
get misty over "When I get home come spring/Will you be glad to be
mine?/Just don't laugh/Please don't cry/Just say so." Why? I don't know,
but it probably has something to do with how I feel about my wife (I can't
understand how/why she loves me so much.). On the other hand, I love Bill
Mallonee's lyrics, but none of his songs have touched me the way that
Steve's have. I don't know if it's the rather trite musical arrangements
or what. It's obviously a matter of personal preference -- Heck, someone
probably feels that way about Carman! ;{>
--
Bill Dozier
Scatterer at Large
"I'm afraid of multiple choice when A and B and C and D are true."
-- Fleming & John
Troy Miller
>Subject: Re: Steve Taylor/Newsboys and dumb lyrics
> (b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
Hmmmm... Well, I can't say I've heard Steve's original version, but I
think the lyrics are very good, and Fleming and John's version - *wow*
There's two!
Whoops! Just read Chuck's (and let me tell ya, you'd better not call
him mr. pearson) and a few other's responses, so I guess we're not
alone.
Troy
---
* OLX 2.1 TD * Verbs has to agree with their subjects.
Robert Davis
>
>elin...@prairienet.org (Elizabeth Lindquist) writes:
>
>>Does anyone know who sang lead on that song ["If It All Comes True"]? I
>>don't have a very discerning ear, but that certainly doesn't sound like
>>Steve. Is it Dave Perkins?
>
>
And anybody who liked that song (and the album in general) should try
hard to track down Dave Perkins' 1987 solo album The Innocence. In
retrospect, it was probably a better predictor of what Chagall
Guevara would sound like than anything Steve had recorded. It
features Dave on vocals and guitars, Mike Mead on drums, and even
Steve Taylor on a few supporting vocals (on the cover of "Turn Turn
Turn").
It has a thick sound like the Chagall album and very similar music
(which gives a pretty clear indication of who was responsible for much
of the sound of the Chagall album -- but The Innocence isn't too
witty, so we know where that came from :-)
I found the album in a cutout bin at Camelot Records about 5 years ago
(it was part of the ill-fated What? Records deal with A&M) -- it was
$1.99, but if you find it, don't be afraid to spend considerably more.
Rob
--
Robert Davis (da...@coaster.com) "Look up, Hannah."
Chris Kalmbacher
>or what. It's obviously a matter of personal preference -- Heck, someone
>probably feels that way about Carman! ;{>
Now *that* is a scary thought!
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: In "We Don't Need No Colour
: University. Since that song first came out, South Africa has done much
: to end segregation and racism, and no one really cares about Bob Jones
: out there... WHAT ARE YOU DOING LISTENING TO CHRISTIAN ROCK IN THE FIRST
: PLACE??? You shouldn't be paying attention to this newsgroup anyway so I
: retract my apology because you are hypocritical Bob Jones'ers :). Does
: This make the song less relevant... NO! It still speaks to a racist
: Church and country and means much to me.
Sorry to harp on the interview thing again, but when I asked Steve how
long he was gonna keep singing that song - now that South Africa's
loosened up - he said, "Maybe until Bob Jones changes their policies. But
yeah, it's good that half of the song doesn't apply." So at least *he*
cares about Bob Jones ... :)
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: I kind of agree. After all, since Steve Taylor was (and probabaly still
: is) based out of the LA area, he probabaly had some advance knowledge of
: the coming movie called "The Doors". Strangley, Jim Morrison's Grave was
: written on the I Predict 1990 album which was produced 2 years before The
: Doors film came out . . . .am I right?-CC
Nope, *3* years. :)
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. "Jesus Is For Losers" and
: _really_ tried to get into "The Finish Line," since everybody tells me
: how great it is, but it just doesn't grab my attention.
I kinda like `Harder to Believe', but the other two are way, *way*
over-rated.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: I agree completely. At first glance, some of Steve's songs make
: think there is a much deeper layer of meaning in all of his songs that is
Personally, I just wish he'd slammed Robert Tilton back when Tilton's
empire hadn't crumbled yet. The earlier albums thumbed Steve's nose at
things that were going on *right*then*and*there*, and as someone else has
pointed out, `On the Fritz' was downright prophetic. But `Squint' just
feels behind the times.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: J. Streck <jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
: > "Svengali" -- A tad heavy-handed, don't you think?
: what, you expect Steve to be SUBTLE?
Well, Steve himself hates that song; check his notes to it in `Now the
Truth Can Be Told'. One can't help wondering how much of a say Steve had
in that hits collection. When I interviewed him last year - before the
release of the disc - he said, "Sparrow was gonna make this boxed set
whether I wanted them to or not, so I figured I'd better get in on this."
Make what you will of that.
Peter Thomas Chattaway
: jamming to "Blue Moon," a song from the 1950s.
You sure? Isn't it one of those 1930s songs that got pepped up in the 50s?
Jerry B. Ray
>: On a given drive to work, you'll find me
>: jamming to "Blue Moon," a song from the 1950s.
>You sure? Isn't it one of those 1930s songs that got pepped up in the 50s?
Could be-I dunno. Still a great song, though...
Ed Rock
> e>From: lo...@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Logan Shaw)
>
> > (b) nobody but me seems to like the song one single bit. :-)
>
> Hmmmm... Well, I can't say I've heard Steve's original version, but I
> think the lyrics are very good, and Fleming and John's version - *wow*
>
> There's two!
Make it three. And let me say Fleming & John's version Friday night was
smokin'.
Chuck Vincent
time it ministered to me in a wonderful way.
Food for thought,
Chuck
Promise Keepers 95 Oakland CA BE THERE!!
V-X
>Well, this has got to be the most long winded, wothless thread ever.
Hmm.
>Steve Taylor is an above average lyricist with a real flare and controll
>of his wit!
Your opinion,presumably ,lifts the debate from its "long winded,
wothless (sic)" state?
>Why don't you guys get a Life! I hit the rmc once a month or
>so and you guys are getting dreary.
So don't hit us.
>Get out and walk the dog,
Don't got one.
> shoot the
>breeze
No gun, either.
>go get a beer for God's sake with your next door neighbour.
Good Lord, man--what if he's not saved? What if he's a she? What if
a ten-year-old recovering alcoholic baby Christian from your church
sees you drinking beer and takes this as his cue to (a) backslide (b)
start a cult or (c) kill somebody?
Just stay in the house, my friend...
> Gosh
>this is boring, repulsive and downright boring!
You said it, not me.
_______________________________________________________________
It's V-X!!!
______Q: What do Deadheads say when the acid wears off?________
__________________A: "This music sucks!"_______________________
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://www.teleport.com/~vx
V-X
>Jerry B. Ray (vap...@prism.gatech.edu) wrote:
>: On a given drive to work, you'll find me
>: jamming to "Blue Moon," a song from the 1950s.
>You sure? Isn't it one of those 1930s songs that got pepped up in the 50s?
Yeah, it is. The old versions are prettier.
Hoemke { TheGuru
>kse...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca (Kirby S. Sewell) wrote:
>
>
>> Gosh
>>this is boring, repulsive and downright boring!
>
contribution in several different forms, spreading it to every thread,
making multiple copies. Then we'd find things much better.
>You said it, not me.
</sarcasm>
>_______________________________________________________________
> It's V-X!!!
>______Q: What do Deadheads say when the acid wears off?________
>__________________A: "This music sucks!"_______________________
>Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://www.teleport.com/~vx
>
--
Pax,
Paul M. Hoemke, TheGuru.
k93...@hobbes.kzoo.edu <===> http://www.kzoo.edu/~k93ph01