Dakota's Peter King: bad witnessing
Philip Su
their latest tour, in Washington DC. During this concert, Peter King,
their main male vocalist/guitarist, made a very touching speech which
we all enjoyed.
Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly. After the concert,
a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song." Puzzled by such a
confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
clarification.
Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
"Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
"oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
to the crowd around him.
Philip Su
ps. I don't mean to rock Dakota. I still love their music. It's
great stuff. It's just too bad Peter King's good on-stage speech was
ruined for the crowd who met him off-stage.
pps. A few quotes from the crowd, for general amusement:
"Peter King is Mean."
"I'm gonna tell Davia." (Davia Vallesillo, lead singer)
" 'We buried Grey Clouds'? _We'll_ bury Peter King!"
jkane
> Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
>"Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
>We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
>"oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
>surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
>on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
> I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
>remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
>much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
>and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
>to the crowd around him.
Interesting you say that.... I was a part of setting up the concert the night
before, at Va Tech. The guys attitudes in "private" were very disallusioning,
although I wasn't really crushed, since I hadn't heard their stuff
previously. I am NOT a fan today though, because of their attitudes.
First, they had very little time to set up, and the electrical supply they
needed was not there. So, they called around and got a generator. This was
not their fault, of course, but their handling of it was bad: they needed
welding equipment (don't know for what...), and no one there knew much about
it. They whined to each other about how "this is an engineering school, and
no one knows anything about welding?!" This was in very condescending
tones... They are right, it is an engineering school. BUT, no one their was
into electrical engineering, in fact most of us who were there aren't
engineering students at all. So sue us....
Then they complained that of all of us helping, only one person was even
CLOSE to helpful, which was horribly unfair. Note that none of these comments
were made to us, but under their breath to each other.
Then, they broke into a room that they weren't given access to. When one of
our guys said he didn't feel that we as Christians should do that, one guy
actually said, "that's okay, I'm not a Christian!!" This from a "christian"
band?
To top it off, during the show, they announced that they were there mainly to
get paid. I don't have a problem with Christians forming bands because they
enjoy music, or even really to make some money doing what they enjoy. But, I
have a problem with them when they claim to be a Christian band, per se'.
If their mission is to make money, they would do all Christian promoters,
those who want to bring in bands as a witness, as did the group here, a
favor by losing the label of "Christian band." They should do something like
what King's X does, and simply claim to be Christians in a band. There is a
difference, and christian promoters would know before hand that they are in
it for fun or money, not for evangelizing, as many Christian bands are. It's
just sad that fewer and fewer are, nowadays....
_____________________________________________________________________________
Jeremy Kane
jk...@vt.edu
_____________________________________________________________________________
William Constantine Tsimpris
: Yesterday, I attended the Dakota Motor Co's last concert of
: their latest tour, in Washington DC. During this concert, Peter King,
: their main male vocalist/guitarist, made a very touching speech which
: we all enjoyed.
: Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
: Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly. After the concert,
: a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
: perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
: bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song." Puzzled by such a
: confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
: clarification.
: "Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
: We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
: "oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
: surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
: on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
: I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
: remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
: much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
: and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
: to the crowd around him.
: Philip Su
: ps. I don't mean to rock Dakota. I still love their music. It's
: great stuff. It's just too bad Peter King's good on-stage speech was
: ruined for the crowd who met him off-stage.
: pps. A few quotes from the crowd, for general amusement:
: "Peter King is Mean."
: "I'm gonna tell Davia." (Davia Vallesillo, lead singer)
: " 'We buried Grey Clouds'? _We'll_ bury Peter King!"
I'm not excusing his attitude, but you still gotta consider the
context of the whole scene. They just finished a concert with, what did
you say, 18 songs? That's a lotta songs. Add that to general tiredness
and all the ugly logistics that go into a concert (and a tour) and you
have the potential for one pretty annoyed person when someone asks him,
"Why didn't you....?" instead of saying, "Good job, buddy."
Context is very important. I remember reading something someone wrote
about how this guy and his friends saw Magic Johnson eating at a
restaurant in Milwaukee following a game. These guys came up to Magic,
taunting him (Lakers lost that night), then asked for his autograph. And
this guy dwelled on how Magic was mean when he said something snippy
back. Well, of course!
I'm not excusing Peter King, because that kind of attitude is a pretty
bad witness, but sometimes you just gotta excuse a man for his humanity,
because we all sin.
BASIL T
----------------------------------------------
"Yep. Me and God. We be good mates."
--Crocodile Dundee
If circumstances revealed a revolution in
gargantuan proportions, I might communicate
in a more erudite manner.
But, things ain't workin' out, so I'll keep
on talking like a country hick.
----------------------------------------------
Jerry B. Ray
>Interesting you say that.... I was a part of setting up the concert the night
>before, at Va Tech. The guys attitudes in "private" were very disallusioning,
>although I wasn't really crushed, since I hadn't heard their stuff
>previously. I am NOT a fan today though, because of their attitudes.
Forget attitudes-I like their music. I got blown off backstage by two
members of Whiteheart one time, but I just wrote it off. I'm not
throwing out their music or anything because of it. I just chalked it
up to "having a bad night." Lord knows I have a hard time being civil
about 95% of the time...
>First, they had very little time to set up, and the electrical supply they
>needed was not there. So, they called around and got a generator.
Did they have to pay for this out of their pockets, out of curiosity?
>This was
>not their fault, of course, but their handling of it was bad: they needed
>welding equipment (don't know for what...), and no one there knew much about
>it.
Well, did y'all shrug your shoulders and say "I dunno" or try to work with
them and find some welding equipment? The ME machine shop would've been
a grand place to start, if your Engineering school is anything like mine...
>They whined to each other about how "this is an engineering school, and
>no one knows anything about welding?!" This was in very condescending
>tones...
If they were whining to "each other," then how could they have been
condescending? They weren't even talking to you...
>They are right, it is an engineering school. BUT, no one their was
>into electrical engineering, in fact most of us who were there aren't
>engineering students at all. So sue us....
EEs welding-that I'd like to see :-)
>Then they complained that of all of us helping, only one person was even
>CLOSE to helpful, which was horribly unfair. Note that none of these comments
>were made to us, but under their breath to each other.
Well, maybe it was unfair, but was it accurate, from an objective
standpoint? It sounds like they were having a wonderful day as it
was, so I can sympathize with their frustration.
>Then, they broke into a room that they weren't given access to.
Why'd they "break into" the room? Again, just curious?
>When one of
>our guys said he didn't feel that we as Christians should do that,
Sheesh, _now_ who's condescending?
>one guy
>actually said, "that's okay, I'm not a Christian!!" This from a "christian"
>band?
Was this a band member or a roadie? If it was a band member, who was it?
You're starting some nasty rumors here that at least need facts to back
them up.
>To top it off, during the show, they announced that they were there mainly to
>get paid.
What was the context of this quote (not that I have a problem with it,
anyway. I can go to church services for free.)? They said similar
stuff here in Atlanta, as I noted in my review from a few days back, and
also noted that they'd be around to talk about whatever people wanted to
talk with them about after the show.
>I don't have a problem with Christians forming bands because they
>enjoy music, or even really to make some money doing what they enjoy. But, I
>have a problem with them when they claim to be a Christian band, per se'.
I don't have a problem with it. Quite the opposite, actually. It was good
to just go to a show, hear some good music (with good messages) and leave
without some half-baked sermon.
>If their mission is to make money, they would do all Christian promoters,
>those who want to bring in bands as a witness, as did the group here, a
>favor by losing the label of "Christian band."
Feh. The idea that the "Christian promoters" are any less "in it for the
money" than the bands is pretty silly to me, especially those promoters
whose job and livelihood comes from booking bands.
>They should do something like
>what King's X does, and simply claim to be Christians in a band. There is a
>difference, and christian promoters would know before hand that they are in
>it for fun or money, not for evangelizing, as many Christian bands are. It's
>just sad that fewer and fewer are, nowadays....
You think it's sad, I think it's great. I buy CDs and go to concerts for
MUSIC, not for sermons and evangelism, and I think it's interesting how
it seems that the more a band focuses on "evangelizing," the less artistic
and "good" their music becomes. Of all of my Christian music, the bands
that are most likely to be listened to by my non-Christian friends are
those that don't focus as much on "evangelism" in their concerts...
JRjr
--
'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
Children growing up, old friends growing older
The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
##### vap...@prism.gatech.edu ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr. ################
clueless chuck the web-surf king
> Yesterday, I attended the Dakota Motor Co's last concert of
> their latest tour, in Washington DC. During this concert, Peter King,
> their main male vocalist/guitarist, made a very touching speech which
> we all enjoyed.
> Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
> Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly. After the concert,
> a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
> perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
> bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song." Puzzled by such a
> confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
> clarification.
> Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
> "Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
> We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
> "oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
> surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
> on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
> I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
> remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
> much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
> and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
> to the crowd around him.
so you've never blown up at somebody for no good reason? 8-P
now, i don't claim to be a dakota freak (although i did see their set
here in columbus and it did smoke) but i've gotta stick up for peter
king here. the guy's been on the road for a few months now, he works
outside of just dmc (he still has that show on MTV, i gather) and we'd
certainly like for him to have a good praise-Jesus face on him every
time he appears in public, but it ain't gonna happen. he's just a
human, just like you and me. and i imagine some guys gathering around
to criticize playlist decisions instead of saying "hey, great set" and
offering encouragement would just get his goat.
and were you there to get witnessed to? did you go to the concert
'cause peter king has this glimmering testimony and is overflowing
with the Holy Spirit and you just wanted to catch a piece of blessing
from him? naw, you went to dance and rock to some cool jams. and you
know what? there's nothing wrong with that! not a durn thing. just
don't expect to recieve spiritual blessing and good witness just
because the guy who's delivering the cool jams is a believer. he's
probably struggling with sin just like the rest of us...
btw, just so that i put myself firmly in the hypocrite's boat, on my
way out of that dakota concert a couple weeks back i ran into the hoi
polloi guitarist, and the first thing i asked him was how long the
band had been playing the new songs, 'cause they sounded a little
muddy. i tried to atone immediately afterwards, insisting that the
other stuff sounded great, especially "rain," but i felt like a jerk
afterward...
anyway. be kind to your local rockers.
clueless chuck, dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
still looking for a real .sig.
see my web page at http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~dcp/chuck.home.html
z_hol...@titan.sfasu.edu
> Yesterday, I attended the Dakota Motor Co's last concert of
> their latest tour, in Washington DC. During this concert, Peter King,
> their main male vocalist/guitarist, made a very touching speech which
> we all enjoyed.
> Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
> Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly. After the concert,
> a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
> perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
> bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song." Puzzled by such a
> confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
> clarification.
> Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
> "Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
> We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
> "oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
> surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
> on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
> I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
> remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
> much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
> and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
> to the crowd around him.
>
>
> ps. I don't mean to rock Dakota. I still love their music. It's
> great stuff. It's just too bad Peter King's good on-stage speech was
> ruined for the crowd who met him off-stage.
>
> pps. A few quotes from the crowd, for general amusement:
> "Peter King is Mean."
> "I'm gonna tell Davia." (Davia Vallesillo, lead singer)
> " 'We buried Grey Clouds'? _We'll_ bury Peter King!"
I saw them in Longview and Peter King didn't give a speech as you said
in fact, the crowd yelled for his testimony his comment was 'It's not Sunday'
--
Kev
"Mosh For Jesus"
Craig Walls
Hmmmmmm.....
When I saw Dakoda last month, Peter King couldn't have been any nicer. It was
a real pleasure to chat with him after the concert. And the whole time, I was
thinking to myself that if it were me, I'd be annoyed by all of the fans
crowding in around me to ask questions that have probably been asked billions
of times before by other people.
Like others have noted, Peter King is human. As is everyone else here on
this here place we call earth. He was probably tired and tired of those
same old questions. Sure, he could've answered a bit more nicely, but come
on guys...a lot of artists don't even make themselves available after a
show so that people can talk to them. I've seen artists (Christian artists
at that) who take off after the show and leave the fans to purchase t-shirts.
You could've caught him on a bad night...I have 'em...you have 'em. I bet
if you really think about it, there have been times when you lost your cool
with someone for no good reason.
And, like I said, I had a great time chatting with him when he was here in
Dallas. He even gladly posed for a picture with me and even did some
amusing stuff to make the picture more fun...
Craig
Jerry B. Ray
>> Yesterday, I attended the Dakota Motor Co's last concert of
>> their latest tour, in Washington DC. During this concert, Peter King,
>> their main male vocalist/guitarist, made a very touching speech which
>> we all enjoyed.
I didn't get this article originally, but luckily somebody else was kind
enough to quote it in its entirity so I can follow up to it :-)
What was the gist of the "touching speech," out of curiosity?
>> Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
>> Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly.
Was there a particular reason you were curious why they didn't play
that particular song? I mean, it isn't like that's their "big hit
song" or anything...
>> After the concert,
>> a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
>> perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
>> bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song."
What was particularly rude about his answer, and how was the question
posed to him?
>> Puzzled by such a
>> confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
>> clarification.
I'm not trying to defend King, naturally, since I wasn't there, but perhaps
the nagging from the crowd got on his nerves?
>> Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
>> "Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
>> We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried."
Maybe he could have been nicer, I suppose, but I can understand his
being tired and annoyed. At least he came out to talk to the crowd-he
could have just left.
>> We were all very
>> surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
>> on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
And so falls another potential idol :-)
>> I would have preferred to have never heard him make his rude
>> remarks.
[Insert quote from the 77s "Perfect Blues" here]
>> Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
>> much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
>> and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
>> to the crowd around him.
Well, he is a human, and I think we're probably not getting an accurate
look at both sides of the issue here. He's not perfect, and there was
probably also some fault on both sides. I don't see where one harsh word
should invalidate the great speech you said he made earlier.
>> " 'We buried Grey Clouds'? _We'll_ bury Peter King!"
Obviously a very kind and forgiving attitude from the crowd, too...
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>I don't see where one harsh word
>should invalidate the great speech you said he made earlier.
Well, since our lives are our most important witness, I can easily see how
one harsh word could invalidate his witness, especially when you think from
the point of view of a non-believer. Would you think his speech meant much if
he later was rude to you? I have to wonder....
DakodaBoy
Okay...let me start this out by saying I'm a little disturbed by the
feelings towards Peter King. I know that most of you don't really "know"
him, but I'm actually a personal friend of Dakoda's. It's Peter I talk to
most often however so I know him a little better than the others. And
this attitude of meanness that people are saying he portrayed, that's just
his way. He wasn't being mean. He says things like that tho from time to
time....in a sarcastic manner. I mean, when I went to one of their shows
once, he called me a dummy for actually paying to get in to the concert.
He didn't sound nice when he said he. He plainly sounded like he was
calling me stupid, but fortunately I knew he was just joking around as he
always does. Also....earlier that day when he pulled around in his truck,
he stuck his head out the window and yelled "Hey DakodaGirl!" This one
was obviously a little more joking sounding though. But he was just
messing around both times. My point is that, I know it sounded like he
was mean, and he can lose his temper at times, but he's really a nice guy
who's just human like everyone else. Maybe he had a headache or
something. Who knows? Or maybe he was just being sarcastic with you, and
you didn't know it because you don't really know him. I'm not blaming you
for that. But hopefully now that you know he's like that....that he likes
to be sarcastic, you'll reconsider before just saying he's a big old
meanie and you're gonna tell Davia :) hehe Davia got her end of sarcasm
from him just like everyone else. She knows how he is :) That's PK for
ya! :)
Hope this helped....
-Donnie
Dako...@aol.com
"I'm ugly, but he was uglier. And it's a good thing I can see. I'm
smelly, but he was smellier. Aren't you glad that you're not me? I'm so
happy you're not blind." - Dakoda Motor Co.
ROGER D MCCLINTON
> before, at Va Tech. The guys attitudes in "private" were very disallusioning,
> although I wasn't really crushed, since I hadn't heard their stuff
> previously. I am NOT a fan today though, because of their attitudes.
>
> welding equipment (don't know for what...), and no one there knew much about
> engineering students at all. So sue us....
well gosh those of us outside made the same comment. "you'd think someone at
tech would know something about how to fix an electrical problem" does that
make us jerks too?
Peter King has been a great guy all three times i've seen him after a concert.
rog
bud
>
> Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
>a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
>perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
>clarification.
>"Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
>surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
>on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
>pps. A few quotes from the crowd, for general amusement:
> "Peter King is Mean."
> "I'm gonna tell Davia." (Davia Vallesillo, lead singer)
> " 'We buried Grey Clouds'? _We'll_ bury Peter King!"
If I had a crowd saying those type of moronic, immature things just because
they didn't get to hear a song, I wouldn't be terribly pleased with them
either. I saw them in Columbus, OH two weeks ago and they rocked the shorts
off of us. Surely you got your money's worth, why press the issue with
Peter over one stinking song? If you got the same speech at the concert
that we got, the whole point of it was the fact that he is an entertainer
making a living, and you shouldn't be looking to him as a spiritual hero.
Just thought I would add my opinion.
-bud
P.S. Why would Davia give a flying crap?
Check out bud homepage sponsored by Good Guy Canned Pork Products
http://www.cedarville.edu/~brent/bud.html
James Gadsby
I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
isn't that the point of Christian music), that we should not witness to our
friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
relax. After the show I went to talk to him, and found him in a heated
discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it. Just
because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
evangelist and should live according to the Word.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Jim
s112...@cedarville.edu
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>Did they have to pay for this out of their pockets, out of curiosity?
No, not that I am aware of. I believe CCL, the group on camous that brought
them in, ate that one...
>Well, did y'all shrug your shoulders and say "I dunno" or try to work with
>them and find some welding equipment? The ME machine shop would've been
>a grand place to start, if your Engineering school is anything like mine...
Trust me, those who had any idea about such things were helping, and there
was more than just one. But those of us who know nothing about it stayed out
of the way, which in my opinion, is better than getting in the way, hoping to
accidentally know something.
>If they were whining to "each other," then how could they have been
>condescending? They weren't even talking to you...
con·de·scend·ing (kňn´dî-sčnądîng) adjective
Displaying a patronizingly superior attitude.
— con´de·scendąing·ly adverb
The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition is
licensed from Houghton Mifflin Company. Copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin
Company. All rights reserved.
Selected Illustrations from the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia. Copyright ©
1991 by Columbia University Press.
They were displaying a patronizingly superior attitude. I heard them, so
whether it was meant for public ears or not, it fell on them. I heard the
tones as patronizing.
>EEs welding-that I'd like to see :-)
Hey, like I said, I know nothing about engineering. But, since it was for
electrical purposes that they needed welding equipment, I would assume that
EE is the place to start. Sorry for my ignorance.
>Well, maybe it was unfair, but was it accurate, from an objective
>standpoint?
No, I don't think so. They were generalizing incredibly, as if the only help
wee were there to offer was to plug them into electricity, and none of us
were helping. We were there to help unload trucks and set up their gear. And
believe me, when they said only one person there was any help at all, that
was an incredibly narrow and false statement. We were all working, in fact,
the setup they said needed 6 hours got done in around 3. I think we were very
helpful, even though we didn't all know how to weld or where to find someone
who does. (You suggested one place: how easy do you think it would be to just
take the equipment from that building?)
>Why'd they "break into" the room? Again, just curious?
They broke into a projection room, with lock picks (what Christian band
should be without lock-picks!) no less, and proceded to splice into the power
supply there.
>>When one of
>>our guys said he didn't feel that we as Christians should do that,
>
>Sheesh, _now_ who's condescending?
What is condescending about saying that he didn't feel that that was right?
It is our school, he'd have had to pay the price if they were caught, and he
didn't agree that that was an alright thing to do. There is nothing wrong
with that.
>>one guy
>>actually said, "that's okay, I'm not a Christian!!" This from a "christian"
>>band?
>
>Was this a band member or a roadie? If it was a band member, who was it?
>You're starting some nasty rumors here that at least need facts to back
>them up.
The fact is, someone in their party said it. That is not made up. I will
admit that I am unsure, but I think it was a member of one of the bands, I'm
not sure which one though.
>I don't have a problem with it. Quite the opposite, actually. It was good
>to just go to a show, hear some good music (with good messages) and leave
>without some half-baked sermon.
Yeah, but they take on the image of a band that's out to see souls saved as
their primary goal, and then announce the money is the main push.
>Feh. The idea that the "Christian promoters" are any less "in it for the
>money" than the bands is pretty silly to me, especially those promoters
>whose job and livelihood comes from booking bands.
Now you are insulting my friends, who brought this band in. Trust me, they
had nothing in mind about making money. They barely expected to break even.
Their intention was to bring in a band to be a witness to unsaved souls, and
hopefully make a difference on a Friday night. The message given that night
was, Make lots of money!
>You think it's sad, I think it's great. I buy CDs and go to concerts for
>MUSIC, not for sermons and evangelism, and I think it's interesting how
>it seems that the more a band focuses on "evangelizing," the less artistic
>and "good" their music becomes. Of all of my Christian music, the bands
>that are most likely to be listened to by my non-Christian friends are
>those that don't focus as much on "evangelism" in their concerts...
That's a pretty wide generalization, that the more evangelical a band is, the
worse they are. I happen to disagree. I don't think there is any corellation
between evangelicalism (?) and talent. I do have a high amount of respect for
those few bands who still take the time to share God's love, though.
---Jeremy Kane------------------This architect student's time-waster:--------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I crawl to you
| With ten fingers smoking
| from turning the pages of sin"
| -The Choir
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---jkane@vt.edu-----------------http://sfbox.vt.edu:10021/J/jkane/-----------
Miquel Mc Cleese
>From: S112...@cedarville.edu (James Gadsby )
>Subject: Re: Dakota's Peter King: bad witnessing
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 1995 16:25:51 GMT
>Well, I am glad others were disappointed too.
>I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
>waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
>isn't that the point of Christian music), that we should not witness to our
>friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
>relax.
I was at the same show and I liked DMC very much and I liked what Peter had
to say. He didn't say it was wrong to share Christ from the stage, he
was saying that there are too many bands who get on stage and talk the talk
but they don't walk the walk. I think what he was saying is that there
are too many people who are coming to concerts looking for edification
yet they are not spending time in Church or in the Word. The Bible
tells us to worship in Church and to read the Bible, I have never seen
anywhere where we are COMMANDED to attend concerts. I quote PK "If you
love Jesus don't buy our music, if you like our music buy our music.
If you love Jesus buy a Bible." He is simply saying that he doesn't
want people's relationship to Christ stemming around DMC. It should be
a personal relationship that grows through our dwelling in the
Scriptures and finding God's truths, not through what lyrics PK writes.
Once again PK did NOT say that we should not witness to our friends. He
said "There are some darn annoying Christians out there" who want to
preach and preach to their friends but don't have the "integrity" to live a
life as an example of Christ for their friends to watch. Let's face it, he'
s telling the truth, it's much easier to talk the walk than it is to walk it.
>After the show I went to talk to him, and found him in a heated
>discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
>and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
>front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
>him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
>me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it. Just
>because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
>evangelist and should live according to the Word.
If he did this and was annoyed with you it doesn't surprise me. He had just
got through telling the audience that so many Christians want to preach to
people rather than actually doing anything about it. If you truly were
concerned about him you could have just prayed for him without telling him
that he wasn't meeting YOUR expectations for his life.
-Mike
Douglas C Pearson
>Well, I am glad others were disappointed too.
>I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
>waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
>isn't that the point of Christian music), that we should not witness to our
>friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
>discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
>and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
>front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
>him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
>me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it. Just
>because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
>evangelist and should live according to the Word.
hum...on the one hand, if this is all true, this bugs me terribly...
[and i was at the same show as you, jim, and that wasn't the impression that i
got listening to peter king at all...but i didn't hear everything PK said
'cause i had to bail early, so i'll have to take your word for it...]
on the other hand, your standard evangelical would likely have said similar
things about mark heard while he was alive, if that standard evangelical had
listened to him live, and talked to him after the show...
so i don't know what to make of this. peter king is not perfect, and i don't
expect him to be. i don't even expect him to live up to the model of artist
that the contemporary christian music industry has created, 'cause i think
that's bogus too. but at the same time, i'd sorta expect the guy to be decent
and humble sometimes...i dunno. i think i just oughta bail out of this thread.
talkin' about a bro behind his back just doesn't do my stomach good. it also
tends to plant me even further into that hypocrite's boat...
chuck
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- biology 113 TA at large -- daddy, "real soon now"
ifiwasgivengivenaglimpseofsomegloriousroadwhenwasitsold? -- stevetaylor
jkane
(MCCL...@vax1.acs.jmu.edu) says...
>well gosh those of us outside made the same comment. "you'd think someone
>at tech would know something about how to fix an electrical problem" does
>that make us jerks too?
Number 1: Don't read more into a post than is there originally... I never
called anyone a jerk.
Number 2: Since it seems to be a concern, here's the scoop. The electrical
problem was simply that there wasn't enough in McBryde Hall. Engineering
couldn't help that, only a HUGE generator could. The major problem was that
there was no generator big enough anywhere nearby. So, time passed, and the
generator came. Then, the cops saw it, and put a stop to using it, until the
Fire Marshall inspected it. He took his time getting here. Then, he told us
we could use it, (by now it was nearly 8 p.m.) but we had to have a person at
the generator with a fire extinguisher and a person at the connection with
one, for the duration of the show.
Their is no engineering help that could help this, since the greatest time
waster was the officials. The generator was for the lights, and it actually
didn't even get started until about 15 minutes before Dakota hit the stage. I
didn't even mention this, but Dakota had told us that they weren't going on
without lights. What? If Hoi Polloi and Johnny Q. Public can play without
stage lights, why can't Dakota? I didn't really think that was too great....
So, besides all that, sure, SOMEONE at Tech could fix some problems, but
there were no electrical engineers present there, nor could they, if they
were there, speed up the Fire Marshall.
Chad A Reynolds
I hope that it's not true.
Chad.
------
Chad Reynolds
University of Pittsburgh at Bradford
Ricki Stabone
>Well, I am glad others were disappointed too.
>I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
>waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
>isn't that the point of Christian music), that we should not witness to our
>friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
>relax. After the show I went to talk to him, and found him in a heated
>discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
>and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
>front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
>him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
>me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it. Just
>because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
>evangelist and should live according to the Word.
>Jim
Gee, Jim, this is the third time I've heard your story about the incidents
surrounding the Dakota Motor Company concert at the King's Place, and it
just seems to get better every time! Let's see... I believe it first
started out with you TRYING to get backstage to talk to Peter King, and
being restrained, then cussed out by DMC's manager. Now, apparently, you
DID end up backstage, and saw lots of other neat stuff you never mentioned
in your first three versions. Will Elvis make a cameo in edition number
four? I can hardly wait! By the way, did Peter recognize you when he saw
you, since you dated Davia in edition number two?
-Ricki Stabone, Founder and president of "Truth in Newsgroups", a
non-profit internet watchdog organization.
jkane
(S109...@cedarville.edu) says...
>was saying that there are too many bands who get on stage and talk the talk
>but they don't walk the walk. I think what he was saying is that there
So here's a question: Does that mean that they aren't planning on walking, so
they'd better not try talking? Who than CAN witness? Shouldn't it be the
other way around, that if we're gonna talk, we'd better be prepared to walk
the walk?
Why does everyone jump on the back of those who have standards? Does no one
see a problem with PK telling a parent to let the kid have her own way, in
front of the kid, and then grabbing himself? Call me an idiot, but that jsut
doesn't seem too great to me...
Jerry B. Ray
OK, my newsfeed is (finally) back up (for now) so I'll respond publically
to these things that I also got in e-mail from Jeremy... BTW, could
everybody whose software automatically sends e-mail for every post
try to fix it so it _doesn't_ do that? Thanks...
[re: the extra generator Dakoda needed at VaTech]
>No, not that I am aware of. I believe CCL, the group on camous that brought
>them in, ate that one...
Good-it would have been unfair, I think, for the band to have to track
down the electricity for their own show...
>>If they were whining to "each other," then how could they have been
>>condescending? They weren't even talking to you...
>They were displaying a patronizingly superior attitude. I heard them, so
>whether it was meant for public ears or not, it fell on them. I heard the
>tones as patronizing.
I still don't buy the assertation that they were being condescending when
their comments were not meant for your ears.
>We were there to help unload trucks and set up their gear. And
>believe me, when they said only one person there was any help at all, that
>was an incredibly narrow and false statement.
OK, maybe their statement that nobody was helping was unfair. Still, if
I were in their shoes having the kind of day you've described, I'd probably
be less than civil myself. Just because they're "famous" doesn't make
them above getting frustrated and upset.
>They broke into a projection room, with lock picks (what Christian band
>should be without lock-picks!) no less, and proceded to splice into the power
>supply there.
Sounds like a decent plan to me :-) Actually, since I'm a Christian and
I've picked a few locks in my time, perhaps I'd better not comment on
this part :-)
>What is condescending about saying that he didn't feel that that was right?
Why not say "what the heck are you doing breaking in that room" and not
"I don't think we as Christians should do that"? I'd personally take
much more kindly to the first statement than the second. Did your guy
do the Superior Dance afterwards?
>>Was this a band member or a roadie? If it was a band member, who was it?
>>You're starting some nasty rumors here that at least need facts to back
>>them up.
>The fact is, someone in their party said it. That is not made up. I will
>admit that I am unsure, but I think it was a member of one of the bands, I'm
>not sure which one though.
Do I need to point out how bogus it is of you to make these sorts of
accusations when you _admit_ that you're not sure what you're talking
about? When I saw Dakoda, one of their roadies (a chubby guy with long
black hair and a beard) was wearing a Pantera shirt with a pot leaf on
the front and a stage pass with a lovely photo of a hand flipping a bird.
I'd venture to guess that he _probably_ wasn't a Christian. But maybe
he's a darn good roadie-I dunno.
In any case, it burns me to hear you say the sorts of things you've said
here when you don't have your facts straight.
>Yeah, but they take on the image of a band that's out to see souls saved as
>their primary goal, and then announce the money is the main push.
Where'd you get the idea that their "primary goal" was to see souls saved?
Did they say this, or did you just preconceive that notion? Spare me
the diatribe about how they _should_ be out to save souls instead of make
money, if you please.
>Now you are insulting my friends, who brought this band in. Trust me, they
>had nothing in mind about making money.
Spare me the righteous indignation, while you're at it. Are your friends
professional promoters who are in this as a livelihood? If not, go back
and reread my post. I wasn't talking about them. But the notion that
"Christian promoters" in general are in _business_ (yes, _business_) out
of the goodness of their hearts is rather hard to swallow.
>They barely expected to break even.
>Their intention was to bring in a band to be a witness to unsaved souls, and
>hopefully make a difference on a Friday night. The message given that night
>was, Make lots of money!
Maybe you should have gotten a preacher in, or maybe Steve Camp, if you
wanted a church service. You got, instead, a good band. Listen to the
music, shake yer butt, and be happy.
>>I think it's interesting how
>>it seems that the more a band focuses on "evangelizing," the less artistic
>>and "good" their music becomes.
>That's a pretty wide generalization, that the more evangelical a band is, the
>worse they are.
That's not what I said. Read it again. Yes, it's a generalization, and
no, it's not always the case, but from my observations, the more a band
focuses on using music as a tool or a means and not an end, the more
their artistry suffers.
>I do have a high amount of respect for
>those few bands who still take the time to share God's love, though.
Spare me the rhetoric and propaganda.
Again, I'm not defending or condoning the actions you say you saw (or
heard about, or whatever) Dakoda commit. I'm merely pointing out that
if any of US (well, me, at least) had to deal with the kinds of things
it appears the band has put up with of late, I'd be snippy, too.
Dan Temmesfeld
<...>
> -Ricki Stabone, Founder and president of "Truth in Newsgroups", a
> non-profit internet watchdog organization.
Ricki, do you even exist? Your name is fictitious and your ID # is
fictitious. Who are you? And why are you?
Dan
James Gadsby
t >expect him to be. i don't even expect him to live up to the model of
artist >that the contemporary christian music industry has created, 'cause i
think >that's bogus too. but at the same time, i'd sorta expect the guy to
be decent >and humble sometimes...i dunno. i think i just oughta bail out
of this thread.>talkin' about a bro behind his back just doesn't do my
stomach good. it also >tends to plant me even further into that hypocrite's
boat...
I do agree about what you said, especially talking about a bro behind his
back. However I brought this out to let others know what happened once
everone started talking about the bad witness thing.
Guess I shoudda kept my mouth shut.
oh well..
jim
Lane T. Denson
: Afterwards, we were curious why DMC didn't perform "Grey
: Clouds," which the audience demanded repeatedly. After the concert,
: a group of friends went up to Peter King and asked him why they didn't
: perform the song. He proceeded to, in a very rude manner, answer
: bluntly that "we [DMC] buried that song." Puzzled by such a
: confusing answer, another member of the audience asked for
: clarification.
: Peter King answered, in a impatient and condescending tone,
: "Why didn't we play Wind and Sea? Why didn't we play Love Runs Home?
: We only had time for 18 songs. Grey clouds was buried." Murmurs of
: "oooooh..." and "dissed!" rang from the crowd. We were all very
: surprised that his off-stage attitude was totally different from his
: on-stage image. We were very disillusioned.
: remarks. Peter King's moving on-stage speech had impressed me very
: much, but everything was destroyed by the reality of his condescending
: and proud personality. His behavior that night was a very bad witness
: to the crowd around him.
Has anyone ever wondered why bands get so strung out on drugs? One word
- touring. One of the closest things to hell on earth, yet it is a
necessity for bands who aren't million sellers (and most who are).
Record companies screw bands at every single opportunity, and I'm sure
this applies for CCM labels as well - touring and merchandising are most
acts' only means of income. Coming and going at weird hours, sleeping on
a moving bus or van with a bunch of smelly road crew, having to be
positive all the time in order to set a good example, trying to make sure
your gear or clothes aren't destroyed or lost, dealing with venue owners
who would rather see Candlebox on their stage than some Christian act who
won't sell nearly the number of tickets a secular act would. It's
amazing touring bands *ever* have a good day. Then people come up after
the show who are supposedly fans, then harras them for not playing their
particular favorite song. Building a set list is tricky work; you have
to fit in all the hits with enough songs the band likes (so they don't
get burned out); and keep it to a decent length - go past 1:00am, the
union workers get overtime.
Just thank them for putting on a good show; they have lives too. Just be
glad they even have time to talk to you - they probably are more
concerned with getting their first shower and hot meal in two days.
Think about how *you* would feel in their position.
NICK AMOROSO
crying out loud!!!
OK, I'm better now. =P
NiCk
Jerry B. Ray
>>I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
>>waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
>>isn't that the point of Christian music), that we should not witness to our
>>friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
>>relax. After the show I went to talk to him, and found him in a heated
>>discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
>>and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
>>front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
>>him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
>>me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it. Just
>>because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
>>evangelist and should live according to the Word.
>got listening to peter king at all...but i didn't hear everything PK said
>'cause i had to bail early, so i'll have to take your word for it...]
>on the other hand, your standard evangelical would likely have said similar
>things about mark heard while he was alive, if that standard evangelical had
>listened to him live, and talked to him after the show...
for most of the people who have had negative things to say about him or
about Dakoda shows, there have been other people who went to the same
shows who didn't get the same negative impressions. Did that make any
sense?
This reinforces in my mind the idea that neither "side" is blameless in
this ongoing battle. For example, the >> guy above says he "talked"
to Peter, who then pushed him away and told him not to pray for him.
What we don't know is how the "I'll pray for you" was presented to Peter.
I can see that being said in such a holier-than-thou manner that Peter
would get hacked off about it. We've _all_ got bias to some extent,
after all, and whatever stories we tell are filtered through our
expectations and biases.
It seems that a lot of the discussion stems from a disagreement over
whether Christian musicians are pastors and evangelists, or whether
they are just musicians who happen to be Christians. I'm pretty sure
we agree on at least some level of behavioral standards for Christians,
and at the very least Peter seems to be acting like a jerk, but the
accusations that somebody in Dakoda is not a Christian, and the anger
because they challenge the notion that a guy on a stage with a guitar
is also a pastor and evangelist rather than just a musician making a
living, are uncalled for IMHO.
Jerry B. Ray
>>was saying that there are too many bands who get on stage and talk the talk
>>but they don't walk the walk. I think what he was saying is that there
Uh, maybe you could leave a bit more context on these quotes? I'd like
to respond to this, but I can't make out what was being said...
>So here's a question: Does that mean that they aren't planning on walking, so
>they'd better not try talking? Who than CAN witness? Shouldn't it be the
>other way around, that if we're gonna talk, we'd better be prepared to walk
>the walk?
This is very hard to follow for my tiny little brain, especially given
the lack of context on what you're responding to. Can we try this again
from the top? :-)
>Why does everyone jump on the back of those who have standards?
Nobody's jumping on the back of anyone. The martyr complex is not appealing.
>Does no one
>see a problem with PK telling a parent to let the kid have her own way, in
>front of the kid, and then grabbing himself?
Since I wasn't there and all I have is a (somewhat dubious) account to go on,
all I can say is "maybe." It really depends on the context, I suppose. If
he was telling the mom to let her watch Sandblast if she wants to, or that
he really didn't think MTV was as brain-rotting as people make it out to be,
then no, I really don't have a problem with it. Since we also have no
record of the context of the conversation, the reaction of the mother, the
inflection of PK's voice, etc., none of us are in any sort of position to
judge who's right and who's wrong.
The "grabbing himself" thing is also hard to believe, honestly. I'd be
somewhat interested in finding out the context and what, exactly, was
meant by "grabbing himself" before I make any sort of judgement. The tone
of the post that presented these comments doesn't inspire blind confidence
in me, honestly.
JRjr
Call me an idiot, but that jsut
>doesn't seem too great to me...
--
Douglas G Smith
King: ba.. by James Gadsby @cedarville
> I saw Dakota for the fourth time in Columbus two weeks ago. I felt it was a
> waste. PK basically told us that sharing Christ from the stage was wrong (
> isn't that the point of Christian music),
No, that's not the point of Christian music. I'm not sure that you can
say that there is 1 point to Christian music, but if you could it would
not simply be to share Christ from the stage. I would think that it is
more along the lines of presenting truth (which would certainly include
truth about Christ but would not be limited to presenting facts about
Christ's life)
that we should not witness to our
> friends (its just bashing them over the head with the Bible), and to just
> relax.
I don't know how to react to that one. Many evangelicals don't seem to
understand that witnessing to our friends has a bad connotation to many
people. I suspect (of course I wasn't at the show and have never talked
to Peter) that Peter meant that we should have relationships with
non-Christians and that we should share our entire life with them. This
would involved sharing our faith, but seems to have a different "feel"
than witnessing.
I do not think that we have a responsibility to tell every single one of
our acquaintances about Jesus, and this is the connotation that I have
when I hear evangelicals talking about "witnessing to all my friends."
After the show I went to talk to him, and found him in a heated
> discussion with a young girl's mother.. telling the mother to just loosen up
> and let the girl watch MTV like she wanted to. He then grabbed himself in
> front of about 25-30 teenage girls and made jokes about it. When I talked to
> him, he told me not to pray for him, cause he doesn't need it (as he shoved
> me away), but to pray for myself because I am in deep need of it.
I do not know exactly how to react to this either, but I do think that
this has turned away from being a discussion about a concert to being
gossip.
As far as the comments about praying, I agree with a previous poster who
said that there was no need to tell Peter that you were going to pray
for him. If the intent of telling him this was to encourage him, that's
one thing. It seems that you gave Peter the impression that you were
going to pray for him because he was "such a bad person and needed so
much help." This is not appropriate. Peter has other Christians in his
life who have a relationship with him. If anyone needs to keep him
accountable, it is these people. They have that responsibility, not
you. (As I'm writing this I am feeling pretty hypocritical because I do
not have a relationship with you. I am thinking that it is a different
situation, but feel free to tell me if it isn't. I am under the
assumption that by posting this on a bboard, you are inviting comment.
So I'm commenting)
Just
> because I think that Christian musicians have the same role as a pastor or
> evangelist and should live according to the Word.
Why? What gives someone who is a talented musician the same role as a
pastor or evangelist? I don't disagree that they should live according
to God's Word, but my impression is that this is exactly the kind of
thing that Peter has been talking about on this tour. He is a musician,
not a pastor.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.christian: 4-Apr-95 Re: Dakota's Peter
King: ba.. by Miquel Mc Cleese @cedarv
>
> I was at the same show and I liked DMC very much and I liked what Peter had
> to say. He didn't say it was wrong to share Christ from the stage, he
> was saying that there are too many bands who get on stage and talk the talk
> but they don't walk the walk. I think what he was saying is that there
> are too many people who are coming to concerts looking for edification
> yet they are not spending time in Church or in the Word.
Exactly. If this is what Peter was saying, more power to him. To
expect a musician on a tour who never stays in the same place more than
one or two nights to have the same role as a pastor is expecting a lot.
Some musicians play the role of a traveling evangelist and I don't have
a problem with that if this is where God has led them. Heck, I'm
involved in a Christian a cappella singing group whom God has called to
perform evangelistic music. BUT, that does not mean that every
Christian who is a musician is called to play that role. Let DMC
discern where God is leading them, and be content with that (even if it
is different from your expectations). It is between God and DMC. If
you feel a burden to pray for DMC or Peter, pray that they will seek
God's direction for the band.
Chip Smith
Literary and Cultural Studies
Carnegie Mellon University
****************************************************
| Every now and then I seem to dream these dreams |
| Where the orphans suckle and the slaves go free |
| Touching that miraculous circumstance |
| Where the blind ones see and the dry bones dance |
| - Mark Heard - |
****************************************************
Ricki Stabone
>story first-hand before you go off trying to good samaratin ricki!
>jim
The Good Samaritan??? Where on Earth does the Good Samaritan come in
to this?? Did Peter King beat you up and leave you for dead on the side of
the road too?
Ricki Stabone
As I mentioned above, I'm the Founder and President of "Truth in
Newsgroups," a non-profit Internet watchdog organization. I just try to
make sure everyone is being nice and kind, AND is getting back to their room
on time. Let's just try to avoid going to "Extremes" around here, OK?
Luv ya,
Ricki
Jeffrey Parks
Jerry B. Ray <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>You think it's sad, I think it's great. I buy CDs and go to concerts for
>it seems that the more a band focuses on "evangelizing," the less artistic
>that are most likely to be listened to by my non-Christian friends are
>those that don't focus as much on "evangelism" in their concerts...
>
Watch the generalizations, and the condescension. Just because you don't
like evangelism at a show doesn't mean that others don't, and that it's not
valid. I'm with you on the whole. Church and home group is where I get my
teaching; I don't need it from somewhere else. But not everyone's like you
and me. Their idea of a good show may include that and, if Dakota takes the
time to actually teach, Dakota should be mindful of their witness. The Bible's
pretty clear on the need for actions to back up words. Your earlier point is
also true--we all have bad nights and judgment should be slow in coming.
As far as your sweeping generalization about less evangelism=better music, you
obviously haven't seen Michael Card, Rich Mullins, Charlie Peacock, or Rez
lately. Or a host of other bands.
J Robert
jpa...@midway.uchiago.edu
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>much more kindly to the first statement than the second. Did your guy
>do the Superior Dance afterwards?
Why is it automatically assumed that someone who has standards that are
tougher than another is automatically "hoier-than-thou" about it? I told you
once, I'll tell you again. It was not said in a condescending way, it was
said in the manner of, "Do you think that's a good idea?"
Besides, also, as I told you, this isn't a "won't harm you" situation, as if
that matters. They, who would be leaving in a few hours regardless, were
breaking into a room that the school didn't want them in. If they were
caught, my friends, who are here still, and would have to deal with the
consequences. I see no reason why they should be at fault for not wanting
the band to put them at risk. Is that so wrong?
>Spare me the righteous indignation, while you're at it. Are your friends
>Maybe you should have gotten a preacher in, or maybe Steve Camp, if you
>wanted a church service. You got, instead, a good band. Listen to the
>music, shake yer butt, and be happy.
>Spare me the rhetoric and propaganda.
I have a question here... How come when you answer me in e-mail, you are
fairly civil, and don't get incredibly snotty, yet when you go public, it
seems that you want to hold me up to ridicule, so all of a sudden you start
getting so uncivil? Why can't you act kind in public, like you seem to be
able to do in private? Talk about condescending....
By the way, they brought a band in because they know that a good band can
bring in a different sort of person than Steve Camp can...but what the heck
good is it to bring in a unique crowd, when they brush off the gospel? I
don't know, I suppose I could be old-fashioned (at 22, no less...), but I
fail to see the point of signing with a Christian label, when it seems
obvious they'd be happier on a non-Christian label. I happen to thin kthey
SHOULD do that, it seems that they'd be better off.
I'm sorry if people wanting to share the gospel is "rhetoric and propoganda",
but that's their heart. I guess they are just SO shallow.
jkane
(ds...@andrew.cmu.edu) says...
>more along the lines of presenting truth (which would certainly include
>truth about Christ but would not be limited to presenting facts about
>Christ's life)
Here's fuel for the fire --
"I slept with my best friend's wife last night" may well be the truth, but is
it proper for a Christian to share from stage? Of course not... (by the way,
it's a hypothetical example, I'm not accusing DMC of saying that...) So, I
think this definition of Christian music NEEDS to be less broad.
SO, what IS the main purpose for CHRISTIAN music? As opposed, I mean, to
non-specifically-Christian music made by Christian artists. There is a
difference.... So, what about the music made by those who try to make their
main message CHRISTIAN, explicitly so...
jkane
(rim_...@frank.mtsu.edu) says...
>Has anyone ever wondered why bands get so strung out on drugs? One word
>- touring. One of the closest things to hell on earth, yet it is a
>necessity for bands who aren't million sellers (and most who are).
>Record companies screw bands at every single opportunity, and I'm sure
>this applies for CCM labels as well - touring and merchandising are most
>acts' only means of income. Coming and going at weird hours, sleeping on
>a moving bus or van with a bunch of smelly road crew, having to be
>positive all the time in order to set a good example, trying to make sure
>your gear or clothes aren't destroyed or lost, dealing with venue owners
>who would rather see Candlebox on their stage than some Christian act who
>won't sell nearly the number of tickets a secular act would. It's
>amazing touring bands *ever* have a good day. Then people come up after
>the show who are supposedly fans, then harras them for not playing their
>particular favorite song. Building a set list is tricky work; you have
>to fit in all the hits with enough songs the band likes (so they don't
>get burned out); and keep it to a decent length - go past 1:00am, the
>union workers get overtime.
>
>Just thank them for putting on a good show; they have lives too. Just be
>glad they even have time to talk to you - they probably are more
>concerned with getting their first shower and hot meal in two days.
>Think about how *you* would feel in their position.
So should we just ignore the bad, for the benefit of the good? What if we
feel that BOTH apply?
So, speaking of which, here is a general (ie, not necessarily connected with
DMC) question. I understand that touring is hard, and bad days happen. But,
does that excuse bad behavior? Should we totally ignore such behavior because
it's justified?
Just figured we could start a useful (CALM?) discussion, let's take it away
from personal experiences with people we don't know, since it clearly isn't
getting us anywhere... I'm just wondering what people have to say about this
point...
GIMMA A CUP OF COFFEE AND I'LL TELL YOU A STORY
situation. I personally plan to not visit the state of Dakota until this mess
is resolved and I am pulling the motor out of my car. that'll show 'em.
I agree with Nick. We all know what has been said. Quit pounding it into the
ground. I'm tired of wading through all this crap.
eric
Steve R. Grunau
as far as signing to a xian label, they probably didn't have a real
choice in the matter. (ie. warner bros. and geffen probably weren't
bidding each other for a contract...) the xian music scene is easier to
make it in (ie. be relatively successful) than the mainstream scene.
this is because its a smaller market and has a monopoly on alot of
consumers who refused to stain their stereos with the fruits of the world.
i doubt they would be on a xian label if they had the choice...
steve
sgr...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
Jerry B. Ray
>So, speaking of which, here is a general (ie, not necessarily connected with
>DMC) question. I understand that touring is hard, and bad days happen. But,
>does that excuse bad behavior? Should we totally ignore such behavior because
>it's justified?
It doesn't excuse or justify "bad behavior," but it should be taken into
consideration when you deal with artists that are willing to hang around
after a show. If I'd just gotten off from a long day's work and had a
bunch of people complaining that I didn't play their favorite song, or
oh-so-humbly offering to pray for me, I'd probably be quite snippy, so
I can understand why PK (or whoever) might act like he's been reported
as acting.
>Just figured we could start a useful (CALM?) discussion,
I hope this was CALM enough. I haven't seen anything yet in this thread
that was _not_ CALM, though, so maybe I'm not a good person to ask...
JRjr
Steve R. Grunau
i think it was nick who expressed a contrary opinion to my statement that
it was easier to make it in xian music than in secular. i hesitated at
making the statement, as i though it might be misconstrued and was unsure
how to clarify what i meant by it...so here goes...
i didn't mean that it was easier to make money in xian music, although i
think its probalby easier once you reach a certain plateau. easier to
get signed, yes; easier to become a 'household name'--ok, not a household
name, but relatively popular. does this make sense?
steve
sgr...@freenet.calgary.ab.ca
Steve Drees
>Gee, I don't know Nick. We haven't really figured out what to do about the
>situation. I personally plan to not visit the state of Dakota until this mess
>is resolved and I am pulling the motor out of my car. that'll show 'em.
Point of order here:
There is no state of Dakota. Sure _South_ Dakota had this wild idea they
could change thier name to Dakota but it never flew.
--
Steve Drees : dr...@drift.winternet.com
KADU Real Radio 90 : Drive Time DJ : 218.263.3000/work
12104 Old Hwy 169 : Music Director : 218.263.6752/fax
Hibbing, MN 55746 : Oracle Coder : 218.262.5879/home
NICK AMOROSO
successful) than the mainstream scene.>
You have got to be kidding. What idiot gave you that information? I was
involved in the Christian music industry for over ten years (with a
"major" Christian label), and it was ten times more poverty-stricken
than the relatively small secular label I now work for. The bands would
go on tour (of course, with NO HELP WHATSOEVER by our company), and then
have to cancel midway through, or ask for LOANS, which our company
would never give! What a joke! A company is supposed to support their
artists! You don't find that too much in Christian music today. I've
never seen such terrible business practice. It's easier to get signed,
but after that, it only gets worse. Sorry to those of you who want to be
Christian recording artists.
NiCk
Jerry B. Ray
>Watch the generalizations, and the condescension.
Admittedly, the generalization wasn't perfect (they seldom are), but it
does have some merit. Compare, say, Carman and the Choir on the
"evangelism" and "artistry" scales and you'll likely get different
results. But yeah, some of your examples of bands that break the mold
are good, particularly Rez. Card and Mullins really seem to fall into
a league of their own.
As for the condescension, I just don't see it. I re-read what I wrote
and didn't see anything condescending. Sorry if it came across that way.
>Just because you don't
>like evangelism at a show doesn't mean that others don't, and that it's not
>valid.
True. And if it's well-done, I don't mind it. REZ and Mylon come to mind
as two bands that pull off sermons in their concerts quite well. BUT, to
say that if a band is a "Christian" band then they have to preach a sermon,
or that the "purpose" of Christian music is evangelism, is simply not
correct.
>if Dakota takes the
>time to actually teach, Dakota should be mindful of their witness. The Bible's
>pretty clear on the need for actions to back up words.
No disagreement here. They should be mindful of their witness whether they
teach or not, in fact. I've said all along that I'm not trying to condone
the actions of King if they are true as reported. However, I'm not of a
mind that being mindful of your witness extends to keeping roadies from
wearing Pantera shirts because somebody in the crowd might think that the
band members weren't Christians because of it.
>Your earlier point is
>also true--we all have bad nights and judgment should be slow in coming.
I find the lack of honesty and the selective memory about events that
I've seen in the "accusing Dakoda" thread to be nearly as disturbing
as the actions being tattled on. Of particular concern was the post
that implied rather straightforwardly that one of the band members stated
that he/she was not a Christian, when in fact the person making the
statement didn't know if it was a member of Dakoda, a member of some
other band, a roadie, or a guy off the street.
>As far as your sweeping generalization about less evangelism=better music, you
>obviously haven't seen Michael Card, Rich Mullins, Charlie Peacock, or Rez
>lately. Or a host of other bands.
I know very little about Peacock, but I've heard he makes some quality music.
Don't know a thing about his evangelistic approach, though. REZ is great,
and Glenn is a great preacher (isn't he actually ordained, rather than just
a guy with a guitar who's expected to give an altar call? Ditto for Mylon.)
Unfortunately, no, I haven't seen REZ lately. They don't make it down to
Atlanta too often...
I don't listen to Card or Mullins, but I've heard a lot about them. They
really do seem to fall into a league of their own. From what I've heard,
comparing what they do to what Petra or REZ or Dakoda does is an apples
and oranges situation.
I don't know about the "host of other bands," though. The Choir plays
great music that ministers to a lot of people, but they don't preach
sermons. 4-Him makes good CCM and ministers to a lot of people, but
I don't see them playing a bar or getting big outside of CCM anytime
soon, and I don't find their stuff particularly "artistic." It's
good stuff, but not particularly innovative or eloquent or deep.
Douglas G Smith
Excerpts from mail: 5-Apr-95 Re: Dakota's Peter King: ba.. by jk...@vt.edu
> Here's fuel for the fire --
>
> "I slept with my best friend's wife last night" may well be the truth,
but is
> it proper for a Christian to share from stage? Of course not... (by the way,
> it's a hypothetical example, I'm not accusing DMC of saying that...) So, I
> think this definition of Christian music NEEDS to be less broad.
Why is sharing that "I slept with my best friend's wife last night" so
obviously wrong? The statement by itself is just words. Meaning is
given to the words by both the speaker and the audience. If the words
were said to mean that "I did this and it's okay," then it would
obviously be wrong because it would not be true. But if the words are
shared to mean that "Everyone, even someone who people put up on a
pedestal, sins," then the statement does reflect truth. While I might
question the appropriateness of the statement being said at that time, I
do not think that such a statement falls outside of the realm of "what
is proper for Christians to share from a stage."
>
> SO, what IS the main purpose for CHRISTIAN music? As opposed, I mean, to
> non-specifically-Christian music made by Christian artists. There is a
> difference.... So, what about the music made by those who try to make their
> main message CHRISTIAN, explicitly so...
>
Why is there such a distinction between Christian music and music made
by Christian artists? What makes music Christian? I guess I would say
that all music that reflects truth fufills the purpose of Christian
music. Some music does reflect the specific truth about Christ and his
life. Other music reflects truth about living a life seeking God's
will. Other music reflects the truth that life without Christ is bleak
and miserable (The recent Nine Inch Nails thread was all about that)
Other music reflects the truth that being in love with another human is
cool. What is the difference? Is God more pleased with one kind of
music than the other?
As far as DMC is concerned, I think that as a band they need to explore
what areas of truth God has lead them to reflect. It could be what I
what I would consider evangelistic (specifically about Christ's life,
death, and resurrection). The problem I have is when people want to
limit artists who are Christians to reflecting this kind of truth.
I actually think that this is a very interesting question. What is
God's intention for music or for any other form of art? I have to say
that I am not totally convinced that reflecting truth sums up God's
intention for art, but I always seem to be led right back to that phrase
about reflecting truth. So, I am very much interested in other's
opinions on the purpose of music.
Mbison 1
Uhh....uhh..., it is great to see Dakoda Motor Co. has somewhat influenced
some theological debates. Or perhaps it is just I who have caused all the
ruckus!
Either way I invite all interested parties over to America Online where
there is a Dakoda folder---To find this on AMERICA ONLINE go to the main
menu, you click "clubs and interests" then choose "christianity online"
then "message boards" then "discuss current topics" then "books and the
arts" then scroll down to find "Dakoda Motor Co"......whew, then you are
at our happy little folder where fans (uhhh, both of you....) can post and
what not, comment etc. in a space where it will be read by the band and
others. Also this area will be used for referencing where the band will be
playing and updating info blah blah blah.
Now to the excitement- First let me say to Phillip Su -"ARE YOU JOKING?"
To the upset fellow at VA. Tech-"WHAT?"-I am truly amazed...but not
really! I've been doing this (playing music in a Christian band) for quite
a while but you just never get used to the arrogance and selfishness of
the few that say the darnedest things about you to the strangest
audiences. Talking about a show you went to is one thing, but to flat out
gossip????? Phil-baby,..you must, MUST be kidding?! I remember the
incident well...I remember distinctly being approached by the group of
kids in D.C. and being asked about "...why didn't you play Grey
Clouds?..."(and by the way, to all who wrote in on my behalf, the kids
were not being pesky or obnoxious, they were stoked, they had just seen a
band they liked...lets face it they were pumped), I told them "We buried
that song",(now I'm not saying to know me is to love me, but to know me or
to understand me is indeed to have a left of center sense of
humor),...they continued for a more defining answer(who could blame
them?)...I answered "we buried that song"...again I was asked "...why
didn't you play Grey Clouds?"...so I says..."Well why didn't we play
Windansea,why didn't we play Love Runs Home, we only had time for 18 songs
and yes Grey Clouds has been buried"....Just AMAZING to me first off that
you(which one were you by the way?)and yours had decided that I had
"dissed"(ummm...do you have a gang-bangin' background that you use
"dissed") you all.
Secondly,"RUDE","MEAN","PROUD","BLUNT","IMPATIENT","CONDESCENDING",this is
big time stuff here, and certainly it is your opinion. It is certainly NOT
mine though. It is interesting to me that a lot of people have been
commenting on your thoughtful post, yet only a few have correctly branded
it GOSSIP. Many have wrote in on my behalf..."I'm not sticking up for
Peter , I mean it sounds like he was being a jerk, but he was probably
tired etc....." This is funny because it pre-supposes that what you are
saying is true...that I was being rude and basically arrogant. Fact is
Jack I wasn't. But even more suspicious
is the tail end to your post..."...'We buried Grey Clouds?'...We'll bury
Peter King"...and ..."I'm gonna tell Davia".
I am to conclude from these statements;
a) Be careful in D.C. 'cause someone is gonna bury me there.
and
b)Someone's gonna tell Davia.
WHAT?????????????
Hey Phillip you know what I'm gonna get you for your birthday?...
A SENSE OF HUMOR!! And if your'e lucky, a new DAKODA MOTOR CO. album. My
condolences to the gang(bad choice of words...I should of said group) who
felt "dissed". I hope more time and understanding can be taken next time
we're in D.C., (which by the way is June 3rd at some water park...I don't
know exactly where yet, but it will be posted in that Dakoda Motor Co.
folder I mentioned ealier)...if you come Phillip I promise we'll bring
back Grey Clouds, 'cause we didn't really bury it!
.................love pk
uhh..to the guy at the Tech College...just ask the people that had us
there if they thought we were appropriate or not!
p.s. people please come over to AOL to our folder and write us. thanks and
bye. "JESUS IS NOT FOR SALE"
Jerry B. Ray
>Why is it automatically assumed that someone who has standards that are
>tougher than another is automatically "hoier-than-thou" about it? I told you
>once, I'll tell you again. It was not said in a condescending way, it was
>said in the manner of, "Do you think that's a good idea?"
Sounds condescending to me. Maybe the whole "I'll pray for you" thing
has been used as a means of expressing displeasure with another's actions
so much that it's become the "default setting" for assumptions-I don't
know.
>I have a question here... How come when you answer me in e-mail, you are
>fairly civil, and don't get incredibly snotty, yet when you go public, it
>seems that you want to hold me up to ridicule, so all of a sudden you start
>getting so uncivil?
Well, maybe because I answer your posts in e-mail and then realize that
you posted _and_ mailed me, and I have to answer _again_. Maybe because
upon reading the article a second or third time for that next response,
the things you're saying really sink in and tick me off. Beats me, but
since we're heaping on the honesty here, I have to say that you're one
of the most frustrating people I've ever had to deal with on r.m.c., and
that includes some real winners...
>I fail to see the point of signing with a Christian label, when it seems
>obvious they'd be happier on a non-Christian label. I happen to thin kthey
>SHOULD do that, it seems that they'd be better off.
Sigh...
>I'm sorry if people wanting to share the gospel is "rhetoric and propoganda",
>but that's their heart. I guess they are just SO shallow.
I didn't say that sharing the gospel was "rhetoric and propaganda." I said
that statements just like the two lines quoted abover are rhetoric and
propaganda. _That's_ why I find it so hard to deal with you.
Jerry B. Ray
Let me start this off by saying that I've been one of the "defenders"
of Peter throughout this whole mess, though I've not tried to justify
his actions. I've just been trying to assemble a neutral picture of the
whole thing given the information presented. In keeping with that,
let me respond to this interesting post from Peter himself...
>Either way I invite all interested parties over to America Online where
>there is a Dakoda folder
Um, I don't think anybody but America Online subscribers can come over
to that folder, so if you want to get the info out to a broader audience,
could you put some of it here in r.m.c.?
>(and by the way, to all who wrote in on my behalf, the kids
>were not being pesky or obnoxious, they were stoked, they had just seen a
>band they liked...lets face it they were pumped)
OK, thanks for clarifying that. I was one that had figured the kids were
being annoying or that you had had a particularly bad night. My bad.
>Just AMAZING to me first off that
>you and yours had decided that I had
>"dissed" you all.
Well, people _do_ tend to take the worst possible interpretation of any
given action or comment, particularly in Christian circles. Sad, but true...
>Secondly,"RUDE","MEAN","PROUD","BLUNT","IMPATIENT","CONDESCENDING",this is
>big time stuff here, and certainly it is your opinion.
Sounds like what people say about me around here...
>It is interesting to me that a lot of people have been
>commenting on your thoughtful post, yet only a few have correctly branded
>it GOSSIP.
Maybe it lapsed into gossip, but I don't think all of it was. As a public
figure, you've got to anticipate having your actions and comments disected
by fans and detractors. Maybe some of the comments were "this is what
Peter did, and it concerned me," though the impression I got was that
I wasn't getting the whole story in some cases...
>Many have wrote in on my behalf..."I'm not sticking up for
>Peter , I mean it sounds like he was being a jerk, but he was probably
>tired etc..."
Yeah, I said this a number of times, but I also expressed doubt about the
accuracy and honesty and "bias-free-ness" of some of the comments.
>This is funny because it pre-supposes that what you are
>saying is true...that I was being rude and basically arrogant. Fact is
>Jack I wasn't.
...and somewhere between the two lies the truth, I'd bet. (No offense
intended to either party here, but like that Extreme album says, there's
three sides to every story-yours, mine, and the truth...)
>But even more suspicious
>is the tail end to your post..."...'We buried Grey Clouds?'...We'll bury
>Peter King"...and ..."I'm gonna tell Davia".
Yeah, the attitude that prompted these statements didn't seem any better
than the (perceived) attitude from Peter that the poster was concerned about.
>And if your'e lucky, a new DAKODA MOTOR CO. album.
So when's the new album coming out, btw? Didn't y'all do a new song in the
set from this latest tour? I saw the show at the Strand in Atlanta, and it
was great...
>uhh..to the guy at the Tech College...just ask the people that had us
>there if they thought we were appropriate or not!
Um, I think the guy from Va Tech _is_ the people that had you there :-)
>p.s. people please come over to AOL to our folder and write us. thanks and
>bye. "JESUS IS NOT FOR SALE"
Hey, hang around here for a while and join the likes of Gene Eugene,
Steve Taylor, Ojo Taylor, and lots of other cool people :-)
Jerry B. Ray
>I would like to defend myself here...I may be wrong, but I do believe that
>when I said that, I said, "one of the guys with the group."
The original article has expired at my site, so I couldn't find the
original quote. If the quote is as you stated it above, I don't think
it's much of a stretch to read it as "somebody in the band." Sorry if
that's not what you intended to say-that's why I asked for clarification.
>I stand behind my statement, although I do NOT know for
>sure whether it was a member of the band or a roadie.
"I stand behind my statement, even though I don't have the facts to make it..."
Curious...
>I am pretty sure it was
>the lead singer of the opening band's opening band, if you must push the
>issue.
Well, yeah, I'm gonna push the issue, because you're still making the claim
that a Christian musician stated bluntly that he wasn't a Christian. In
case you haven't thought about it, those are bold, and grave, accusations
and shouldn't be made lightly, or without the facts to back it up. We
_really_ don't need more half-baked rumormongering.
So, if the bill was Johnny Q. Public/Hoi Polloi/Dakoda, I would guess
that the "opening band's opening band" was JQP. Is this right, or was
there another band on first, like here in Atlanta?
If it was the lead singer of JQP, I think you'd remember him. Yellow hair,
Buddy Holly glasses...ring a bell?
>But, again, I did not say a band member, I said a person travelling
>with them. Please be sure of what you are attacking, before you do so. Thank
>you....
I _am_ sure of what I'm attacking-your vague insistences that somebody, maybe
a band member, maybe a roadie, maybe some random guy, boldly proclaimed to
not be a Christian. If you're going to make claims like that, you'd
_best_ be prepared to back them up with facts and not hand-waving.
In just the post I followed up on, you identified the person in question as
"[maybe] a member of the band or a roadie," "[probably] the lead singer of
the opening band's opening band," and "a person travelling with them." Which
was it? Not a tough question...
Wizard Of OZ
>From: s100...@cedarville.edu (Ricki Stabone)
>Subject: Re: Dakota's Peter King: bad witnessing
>Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 20:45:27 GMT
>>Ricki, do you even exist? Your name is fictitious and your ID # is
>>fictitious. Who are you? And why are you?
> As I mentioned above, I'm the Founder and President of "Truth in
>Newsgroups," a non-profit Internet watchdog organization. I just try to
>make sure everyone is being nice and kind, AND is getting back to their room
>on time. Let's just try to avoid going to "Extremes" around here, OK?
> Luv ya,
> Ricki
Just a comment. I dopn't want to get in this debate, but how can you be
the "Founder and President of `Truth in Newsgroups'" if you can't even use
your REAL NAME AND ID#? Just a thought...
If you're gonna judge other's honesty, then why don't you be honest yourself?
Oz
Douglas C Pearson
[lotso stuff.]
personally, after all the stuff we've posted about PK in the past week, i find
it rather incredible that the bro' would post here at all. 8-)
thanks, peter.
chuck
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- biology 113 TA at large -- daddy, "real soon now"
ifiwasgivengivenaglimpseofsomegloriousroadwhenwasitsold? -- stevetaylor
Jerry B. Ray
>Honesty does not equal discretion. Get some.
Sigh...
>By the way, I've decided that I would rather piss you off for
>what I feel is right than shut up and let you go unchecked.
"What [you] feel is right" <> "what is right." Expect disagreement.
You play dirty in your debates, going back to the Carman and prayer in
schools thing. You make it sound like everybody that disagrees with
you is lacking your level of spiritual maturity (recently by use of
post-ending rhetoric about sharing the gospel. Remember that-where you
reacted as if I'd said that sharing the gospel was "shallow" or
somesuch when my comments had nothing to do with that, and my feelings
run quite the contrary?). Expect frustration and irritation.
>I disagree with
>much of what you say, and I say so. Perhaps this is a problem to you, huh?
I could care less if you disagree with "much of what I say." The problem
is not with the disagreement, like that's so important to my fragile ego.
It's with the way the disagreement is presented. Maybe try listening
to others from time to time?
>I'm only sorry that more people who disagree don't get involved.
Me too. That swings both ways, btw.
>It makes me
>wonder if there are any Christians with standards that are higher than the
>world's out there.
OK, lets trace the implications here, shall we?
1. You disagree with much of what I say.
2. You're sorry that more people who disagree (presumably, those who
agree with you in disagreeing with me...) don't get involved.
3. You don't see anybody else "sideing" with you against me, and this
makes you wonder if there are any Christians with standards
higher than the world out there.
3a. You've repeatedly in other posts referred to people that you agree
with as having "high standards" or "higher standards" than
those who you disagree with you.
4. The people with standards higher than the world's would join with
you against me and my ilk who you all disagree with, putting
me in the "no standards" bunch.
5. Therefore, since I don't agree with you, my standards are no
higher than those of the world.
If I've misinterpreted any of this, feel free to let me know. Seems
pretty elementary to me. And you wonder why I get frustrated in my
dealings with you? Admittedly, I could carry myself in a more patient
and meek manner, and I'm not trying to justify my actions, but your
provocations and your self-righteous style of debate tend to force the
issue, as so clearly illustrated above.
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>since we're heaping on the honesty here, I have to say that you're one
>of the most frustrating people I've ever had to deal with on r.m.c., and
>that includes some real winners...
Honesty does not equal discretion. Get some.
>_That's_ why I find it so hard to deal with you.
Then don't. By the way, I've decided that I would rather piss you off for
what I feel is right than shut up and let you go unchecked. I disagree with
much of what you say, and I say so. Perhaps this is a problem to you, huh?
I'm only sorry that more people who disagree don't get involved. It makes me
wonder if there are any Christians with standards that are higher than the
world's out there. If there are, SPEAK UP!
Douglas G Smith
Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.christian: 10-Apr-95 Re: Dakota's Peter
King: ba.. by jk...@vt.edu
> I'm only sorry that more people who disagree don't get involved. It makes me
> wonder if there are any Christians with standards that are higher than the
> world's out there. If there are, SPEAK UP!
>
I think the reason that more people have not gotten involved is that the
underlying issue is what are our expectations for musicians who are
Christians. This comes up all the time on rmc, and most of the
discussions are just previous discussions warmed over. I keep reading
these threads in the hope that someone will phrase my feelings in just
the perfect way so that everybody will see the "light" of what I think.
Which is the same thing that you are doing. (and I don't see that there
is anything wrong with that)
Which gets to my point. Why do people who disagree with you equated
with the having the world's standards and those who agree with you
equated with Christian standards? People have disagreements. When I
first started reading rmc, I probably would have agreed with you in this
Peter King thread. By listening to many conversations on this bboard,
I've learned a lot. One of the most important things is that I might be
wrong. Through discussions and conversations and even flames I have
come to clearer understanding of the many different points of view that
are out there.
Ed Rock
> Here's fuel for the fire --
>
> "I slept with my best friend's wife last night" may well be the truth, but is
> it proper for a Christian to share from stage? Of course not...
Why is it not proper to be said from the stage. It is all the more
improper for a Christian artist to stand on the stage spouting off about
marital fidelity when he slept with his best friend's wife the night
before. If the stage is where he's convicted of his sin, that may be the
best place for him to show his humanity, brokeness, *and* repentance.
> (by the way,
> it's a hypothetical example, I'm not accusing DMC of saying that...)
Ed Rock | I don't wanna be wise
aka Ed Crabtree | I just wanna stay young.
ercr...@email.unc.edu | --Hall & Oates
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>that implied rather straightforwardly that one of the band members stated
>that he/she was not a Christian, when in fact the person making the
>statement didn't know if it was a member of Dakoda, a member of some
>other band, a roadie, or a guy off the street.
I would like to defend myself here...I may be wrong, but I do believe that
when I said that, I said, "one of the guys with the group." I did not say one
of the band members. I stand behind my statement, although I do NOT know for
sure whether it was a member of the band or a roadie. I am pretty sure it was
the lead singer of the opening band's opening band, if you must push the
issue. But, again, I did not say a band member, I said a person travelling
with them. Please be sure of what you are attacking, before you do so. Thank
you....
---Jeremy Kane------------------This architect student's time-waster:--------
DakodaBoy
just say it like it was...whether people like it or not. Now...hopefully
this ridiculous mess that was started here can be put in the past and
forgotten about. I'm behind ya all the way PK (as you already know I'm
sure)! Talk to ya later!
-Donnie
-Donnie
Dako...@aol.com
"I'm ugly, but he was uglier. And it's a good thing I can see. I'm
smelly, but he was smellier. Aren't you glad that you're not me? I'm so
happy you're not blind." - Dakoda Motor Co.
DakodaBoy
read the message that PK himself posted here on the internet and let it go
for crying out loud! This is becoming more of a cat fight of sorts than a
discussion...people are getting hurt here and there just because of a
stupid disagreement. If you have any more questions about the PK "story",
go to the source and quit talking to people who either aren't involved or
have biased opinions for one reason or another. Now you can't just talk
behind his back anymore at least. Now he can at least read and respond to
what people are saying. Hope this gets settled soon.
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>"What [you] feel is right" <> "what is right." Expect disagreement.
Maybe. But maybe it does equal it, sometimes. Have you thought of that?
Besides, no matter what IS right, it still is percieved. You have things you
see as right, and you don't simply consider them "what may be right" on a day
to day basis, do you? Sure, when you think clearly, you may, but overall, you
simply think of it as "the truth."
>You play dirty in your debates, going back to the Carman and prayer in
>schools thing.
?? I don't think I've ever posted to that thread. That one was too far out
for me to even try posting to....
>You make it sound like everybody that disagrees with
>you is lacking your level of spiritual maturity (recently by use of
>post-ending rhetoric about sharing the gospel. Remember that-where you
>reacted as if I'd said that sharing the gospel was "shallow" or
>somesuch when my comments had nothing to do with that, and my feelings
>run quite the contrary?). Expect frustration and irritation.
Perhaps you are right, but I understood your line to equate me saying
something to the effect of "they wanted to share the gospel" as rhetoric.
Once the statement is made, you are not there to tell me how to take it, so
you have to realize that I take it how _I_ take it. Not necessarily how you
meant it. Perhaps one of our problems is that I happen to take many of your
lines wrong. I happen to find many of them offensive, arrogant, and
condescending. That does not mean that that is how you mean them to be, but
if that's so, then I'd recommend looking carefully at your writing style.
>It's with the way the disagreement is presented. Maybe try listening
>to others from time to time?
I could say the same to you. If you aren't offended, though, why do you get
so worked up in these posts? I'd say that you are getting more personally
involved than you'd like to be....
>OK, lets trace the implications here, shall we?
>5. Therefore, since I don't agree with you, my standards are no
> higher than those of the world.
Well, perhaps this is how I feel. I know I'm not the authority on who is
right and who is wrong, but sometimes I feel like Christians are selling
out. Someone, in another thread, said that "the whole set of rules was
repealed." This implies to me that we no longer have to act any different
than the world. That was certainly the context it was given in, by the way.
Yes, I'd have to say that I feel that way. Hey, I happen to think I'm on the
right track (yeah, a long way from the destination, but heading there
slowly...) It's as if I had a blck dot on a piece of paper, and everyone
called it tan. Yeah, I'd say that everyone who called it tan was wrong, as
are those who call it grey, white, or anything other than black. Sorry.
>Admittedly, I could carry myself in a more patient
>and meek manner, and I'm not trying to justify my actions, but your
>provocations and your self-righteous style of debate tend to force the
>issue, as so clearly illustrated above.
I could agree as far as my own self is concerned. Of course, I really don't
see what I say as "self-righteous." I don't really feel like I'm arguing for
my own good. Heck, I couldn't care less if you did whatever. I just hate to
see Christians who treat their Christianity like little more than a ticket to
Heaven. Condescending, I'm sure you are saying. I don't feel that this is my
attitude, but as I said earlier, I am not here when you read this to defend
myself, so you will naturally think of it however you will.
I might ask you the question you asked me above... Do you try listening to
others from time to time? In answer to you, I'd have to say that I allow very
few people to have a voice in my life. I cannot please all of the people, and
I don't really care if I please any. I do, however, need to know which
people's opinions I can trust, and to them I listen, carefully. My pastor, my
close friends, my fiancee, and the Holy Spirit, I listen to. Some folks on
the internet, honestly, heck, I don't know you, you could be some athiest
who's having fun with the Christian loser, for all I know. (No, I'm not
calling you an athiest, don't get all worked up over that... I'm just saying
that I DON'T KNOW!)
So, unless I feel the nudge of the H.S. when I read these posts, I don't
really take most of it to heart.
You wanna hear something funny? I HAVE felt that nudge while e-mailing PK.
That nudge has prompted me to apologize to him, and if you'll notice, I even
apologized publicly for spreading slander. Yes, I do listen to others. I'm
sorry to say, that you have done little to make me see you as one to listen
to.
"Know who your critics are." --C. Goolsby
Bryan Miller
I am writing this in response to something I heard you say at one of your
concerts in Columbus in March, you said, "I don't know if I should be
talking about God at a rock concert, but anyway....." Are you saying that
there are only certain places we can talk about God? Are you saying there
are certain places God does not belong?
In another concert, after someone asked you to give a testimony, you were
quoted as saying "It's not Sunday". Were you saying that we should only
talk about God on Sunday, that we should not include God in our daily lives?
Please respond to this if you have the time.
in Christ,
Bryan Miller
Jerry B. Ray
>>"What [you] feel is right" <> "what is right." Expect disagreement.
>Maybe. But maybe it does equal it, sometimes. Have you thought of that?
Of course the two will coincide from time to time, but as I pointed out,
many of the matters that we discuss here don't have cut-and-dried,
right-and-wrong answers, and to purport that any particular way of
thinking is "the way it should be" just isn't going to work.
>Sure, when you think clearly, you may, but overall, you
>simply think of it as "the truth."
WRT the role of evangelism in Christian music, my way of thinking is
that preaching is not a required part of a Christian concert. This
does not imply any sort of animosity toward those bands that _do_
preach (my previous generalization notwithstanding...), however. There's
room and a place for both types of bands, and I don't think the industry
as a whole is lowering it's standards to those of the world simply because
there is an increasing number of bands who _don't_ preach from the stage.
>Perhaps you are right, but I understood your line to equate me saying
>something to the effect of "they wanted to share the gospel" as rhetoric.
Bringing in the "sharing the gospel" issue as a trump card, as a means of
proving the "righteousness" of your argument, _does_ constitute rhetoric.
It's a bogus technique to use in proving your argument.
>Perhaps one of our problems is that I happen to take many of your
>lines wrong. I happen to find many of them offensive, arrogant, and
>condescending. That does not mean that that is how you mean them to be, but
>if that's so, then I'd recommend looking carefully at your writing style.
Maybe I am offensive, arrogant, and condescending. Or maybe you're
reading me the wrong way. I don't know, but I don't think the people
that _know_ me around here generally take me that way...
>If you aren't offended, though, why do you get
>so worked up in these posts? I'd say that you are getting more personally
>involved than you'd like to be....
But I'm not-that's the thing. I'm not particularly worked up at all.
My ranting and such is just a part of the way I argue a point-you get
used to it if you're around me enough (really!).
>>5. Therefore, since I don't agree with you, my standards are no
>> higher than those of the world.
>Well, perhaps this is how I feel.
If so, I can see that we're not going to get along...
>It's as if I had a blck dot on a piece of paper, and everyone
>called it tan. Yeah, I'd say that everyone who called it tan was wrong, as
>are those who call it grey, white, or anything other than black. Sorry.
But as I've said before, the issues we're debating here don't always
have black and white answers. There's room for disagreement without
somebody having to be right and somebody having to be wrong.
>Of course, I really don't
>see what I say as "self-righteous." I don't really feel like I'm arguing for
>my own good. Heck, I couldn't care less if you did whatever.
By self-righteous, I don't mean trying to elevate yourself, per se, but
just believing that the way you believe is the right way, and everybody
else is "selling out," has "lower standards," etc.
>I just hate to
>see Christians who treat their Christianity like little more than a ticket to
>Heaven. Condescending, I'm sure you are saying.
No, I'm not exactly saying that, but it's not really your place or mine
to judge how anyone else "treat[s] their Christianity, and it's not our
place to get them to change their ways. You say a little later that
there are only a few people whose opinions you trust, and that's fine.
(Of course, if you disregard the comments of everybody else offhand, then
I think you're missing out, but that's neither here nor there...) But
if you only listen to a select few that are close to you, then why would
you expect others to be any different? If you don't listen to what
"we're" saying, how can you then turn around and try to convince us
that we've got this whole Christianity thing wrong? There seems to be
a double standard at work here.
>I cannot please all of the people, and
>I don't really care if I please any.
I don't expect you to "please" me, but I would like you to respect my
opinions and not denegrate or disregard them offhandedly. I'll say it
again-there isn't an absolute answer to the stuff we're arguing about.
I believe there are some absolutes, the sorts of things that our faith
is founded on, like the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and
such (so, no, I'm not some atheist having fun with the Christians-I'm
a Christian, have been for 7 or so years now, in a rather theologically
conservative Southern Baptist church).
>Yes, I do listen to others. I'm
>sorry to say, that you have done little to make me see you as one to listen
>to.
Sorry you feel that way.
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>Bringing in the "sharing the gospel" issue as a trump card, as a means of
>proving the "righteousness" of your argument, _does_ constitute rhetoric.
>It's a bogus technique to use in proving your argument.
I don't feel it was a trump card. You said that most people do concert
promotion as a way to earn money. I responded that my friends, and I'm sure
many others who bring in bands, aren't doing it for that reason, they are
doing it for "the other" reason. It was to that that you responded,
"rhetoric." Nope, just their primary reason for promoting the show. Sorry...
>But I'm not-that's the thing. I'm not particularly worked up at all.
>My ranting and such is just a part of the way I argue a point-you get
>used to it if you're around me enough (really!).
Perhaps that's just the way _I_ work. Perhaps my arguments are based on the
belief that I am on the right track. Perhaps I see these arguments as
pertaining to more than just you and I, or to just music. Perhaps I see one
truth, and many deviations from it. That's just the way I am. So, we'll
probably always clash. Maybe you'll also get used to it after time. (Don't
get worked up? What about the p.o.'d part about no-flames-please lines?
Sounded pretty upset ot me...)
Jerry B. Ray
>(Don't
>get worked up? What about the p.o.'d part about no-flames-please lines?
>Sounded pretty upset ot me...)
Hyperbole. It can be rather a rather effective tool, at least sometimes...
If I really got as worked up as it sounds, I'd probably be dead from an
aneurism or something :-)
Mr S J Elliott
Mbison 1 <mbi...@aol.com> wrote:
>Either way I invite all interested parties over to America Online where
>menu, you click "clubs and interests" then choose "christianity online"
>then "message boards" then "discuss current topics" then "books and the
>arts" then scroll down to find "Dakoda Motor Co"......whew, then you are
>at our happy little folder where fans (uhhh, both of you....) can post and
>what not, comment etc. in a space where it will be read by the band and
>others. Also this area will be used for referencing where the band will be
>playing and updating info blah blah blah.
>
>bye. "JESUS IS NOT FOR SALE"
Another artist meets the net! Welcome Peter.
Sadly you invitation to move to aol is not an option
for most of us.
Although users of aol can subscribe to usenet, users
of usenet cannot subscribe to aol. If you have the option
of using both, I'd say stick with usenet, you'll reach a
far wider audience that way.
Steve
--
s...@uk.ac.lancs.comp
Department of Computing, SECaMS Building,
University of Lancaster, Bailrigg, Lancaster, LA1 4YR, UK
PHONE: +44 524 593783.
GIMMA A CUP OF COFFEE AND I'LL TELL YOU A STORY
>
> Then don't. By the way, I've decided that I would rather piss you off for
> what I feel is right than shut up and let you go unchecked. I disagree with
> much of what you say, and I say so. Perhaps this is a problem to you, huh?
>
> wonder if there are any Christians with standards that are higher than the
> world's out there. If there are, SPEAK UP!
>
I feel I am a Christian with standards higher than the world, and because
you've invited me, I will speak up. Hope you don't mind that someone who
thinks your whole thread is ridiculous is doing the speaking.
Could your letter have been any more condescending? Is this what you consider
an "olive branch"? (look at your other recent post, some appology. It is
totally meaningless after this post. You no longer have ANY credibility.) Your
whole argument has been wishy washy, unsure of itself, and inappropriate in the
first place. You make things worse by spouting lines like the "higher
standards" one mentioned above, and by saying you realized your mistake but
felt compelled to defend it anyway. You tell JrJR to take it up with you
personally, then reply (publically) with the above comments.
(BTW, listen to your own advice every once in a while. If you'd kept the
whole thing to yourself and approached Peter King about it before running your
gigantic mouth on the internet, we wouldn't be having this problem.)
I am very thankfull Peter King has had the opportunity to respond. I wonder
though, what this thread would be like if he had no access to the 'net. How
much more unfair could you have been? You had no regard for the truth in this
situation. you didn't care if PK heard any of this or if people were being
hurt. You cared about spreading gossip. several posts, one of mine included,
urged you to give up this silly thread before it got out of hand, which you
didn't. You have repeatedly showed un-Christian attitudes and actions while
wondering aloud, "is there anyone (else) out there with standards?" Yes, and
because there are, I feel compelled to bring out these points. Remember as you
read this YOU made this a public discussion, not PK, not JRJR, and most
definitely not me.
This is very disappointing. You'd think someone with such high standards as
you claim to have would at least work with solid facts, strong arguments and a
sense of responsibility. that is obviously not the case. sounds a lot like
the "standards of the world" to me.
eric wyatt
00es...@bsuvc.bsu.edu
(replies are welcome)
Kevin Rigsby
>I really wish that you people (I know some of you already have) would just
>read the message that PK himself posted here on the internet and let it go
>for crying out loud! This is becoming more of a cat fight of sorts than a
>discussion...people are getting hurt here and there just because of a
>stupid disagreement. If you have any more questions about the PK "story",
>go to the source and quit talking to people who either aren't involved or
>have biased opinions for one reason or another. Now you can't just talk
>behind his back anymore at least. Now he can at least read and respond to
>what people are saying. Hope this gets settled soon.
>-Donnie
Are you a groupie? I have not posted anything at all on this thread,
and, to be honest with you, I don't care either way. But I have seen
you post before, and I am just wondering, are you a paid employee of
DMC or their record label, or are you just a groupie?
BTW, I am a big DMC fan: "sing hallelujah" is one of the coolest praise
songs I have heard in a long time.
lovin' JESUS,
kevin rigsby
#S...@utm.edu
*
*********
*
*
*
William Constantine Tsimpris
: personally, after all the stuff we've posted about PK in the past week, i find
: it rather incredible that the bro' would post here at all. 8-)
: thanks, peter.
: chuck
Yeah, I agree. Actually, if Peter ever reads this, well, I'm the guy
I think you were referring to that was from D.C., although I don't
believe I ever called you "a jerk," and I think I was actually the first
person to stick up for you. Not that it really mattered then and it
doesn't matter now. Anyway, yeah there has been a lot of gossip about
you, but as Jerry B. Ray says so eloquently: (1) you're a public figure
so you're gonna be scrutinized, and (2) Christians have this terrible
knack of interpreting something the worst possible way (notice all the
"is this satanic" posts there are).
Anyway, you guys got a great ministry goin', and we ain't tryin' to
diss ya.
Word,
BASIL T
*******************COUNT BASIE*******************
"The contempt you feel is not worth your time."
--The Prayer Chain
-------------------------------------------------
Basil Tsimpris, freshman at The George Washington
University (yes, we put the arrogant little "The"
in there just so we can feel special) and proud
member of the Isaac from "The Love Boat" fan club.
*************************************************
jkane
I'LL TELL YOU A STORY (00es...@bsuvc.bsu.edu) says...
Thank you for your judgement. Unfortunately, I see where much of it is right,
but I wonder if you haven't also done what you judged me for doing. Pretty
darn mean about me, but also in public, and not to me directly. Yes, I was
wrong to do so, but did that give you the right to do likewise? Hmmm... It
would appear that you and I, and JRjr, AND PK, are ALL human!
>Could your letter have been any more condescending? Is this what you
>consider
>an "olive branch"? (look at your other recent post, some appology. It is
>totally meaningless after this post. You no longer have ANY credibility.)
Well, my apology was clearly stated as being toward the gossiping part. JRjr
gets my goat at times, as he did then, and I leap without looking, quite
often. One of my many faults. (By the way, to all who are happy to hear that,
I will say one thing: yeah, I claim to have high standards, and I claim to be
on the right track for what truth is. I guess I realized recently, well,
actually, I've always known, but just recently realized that I need to say so
publicly, that knowing what I need to do does not equal DOING it. I think we
all feel that we know what is 100% right, in spiritual cases, but we rarely
feel comfortable with our attainment of that 100%, you know?)
>whole argument has been wishy washy, unsure of itself, and inappropriate in
>the first place. You make things worse by spouting lines like the "higher
>standards" one mentioned above, and by saying you realized your mistake but
>felt compelled to defend it anyway. You tell JrJR to take it up with you
>personally, then reply (publically) with the above comments.
I don't see my arguments as wishy-washy, nor unsure of myself. Inappropriate,
I will not dispute, because you are probably right. The "higher standards"
thing was also a big mistake, but I still feel like a lot of people on here
seem to be watering down the truth. My own opinion; everyone may feel free to
disagree and act however they want, I never meant to stop them by force. But,
I still feel that way. Also, when I said I realized my mistake, but felt
compelled to defend it, I was admitting Pride, although I guess I forgot to
explicitly spell it out. Once my argument was out, it hurt like crap, as it
does now, to say, "I was wrong." I think most of us can understand that.
Again, what makes your public blasting right, if mine was wrong? I'm sorry
for that as well, but as I said, he got me riled up. While he may not get
personally involved, I am not so good. I get heated at times.
>(BTW, listen to your own advice every once in a while. If you'd kept the
>whole thing to yourself and approached Peter King about it before running
>your gigantic mouth on the internet, we wouldn't be having this problem.)
THAT is what my apology was about. Re-read it, if you still can get it. No,
on second thought, don't. I'll say it again: I don't apologize for my
opinions, I DO apologize to all concerned, which is singularly PK, for
talking about it online.
>read this YOU made this a public discussion, not PK, not JRJR, and most
Technically, I didn't either. I was responding to someone else, but that
isn't important.
>strong arguments
Again, I don't think my arguments were particularly weak, just perhaps badly
stated. If they didn't do anything for you, it just means you don't care for
my way of supporting my claims. That isn't necessarily a bad argument, just
not one that compels YOU. And to answer your last sentence, which I
accidentally deleted, about all this sounding like the "standards of the
world" I ask you this: do bad arguments = world's standards? Or am I
misunderstanding you there?
Since the original post was on the net, I'll respond on the net, plus forward
the message. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for offending
PK. (???)
jkane
I'LL TELL YOU A STORY (00es...@bsuvc.bsu.edu) says...
By the way, I like the new header. REAL nice and private... I DIDN'T NAME THE
ORIGINAL POST, so don't say "one bad header deserves another" Besides, if you
thought I was wrong, again, why is this okay?
J. Streck
>I will say one thing: yeah, I claim to have high standards, and I claim to be
>on the right track for what truth is. I guess I realized recently, well,
>actually, I've always known, but just recently realized that I need to say so
>publicly, that knowing what I need to do does not equal DOING it. I think we
>all feel that we know what is 100% right, in spiritual cases, but we rarely
>feel comfortable with our attainment of that 100%, you know?)
Actually, it's been quite some years since I've felt 100% right in
spiritual cases, and looking back on the times when I thought I was 100%
right it's pretty clear to me now that I was closer to 100% wrong. I don't
know about anyone else, but the best I seem to be able to do these days
is to be pretty sure that I think I know what is right but also quite
open to the possibility that I'm wrong.
Isn't it Ojo's latest album that quotes a line from Oliver Cromwell, "I
beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think that ye may be mistaken"? Good
advice, I think (and useful for avoiding arguments).
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
DakodaBoy
fan of theirs (same deal)! In fact, I even flew from Florida to
California to see them perform for their New Year's EVe show (Which
happened to be Davia's last show). Then I stayed with them for about a
week. It was awesome! :) So I guess I'm kinda more of a friend of the
band than a groupie :)
Well anyhow...talk to ya later...
Jeff Layton
probably deleated the original because some of us have better things to
do than to read endless threads of squabbling amongst our Christian brothers.
-Jeff
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On 11 Apr 1995, DakodaBoy wrote:
> I really wish that you people (I know some of you already have) would just
> read the message that PK himself posted here on the internet and let it go
> for crying out loud! This is becoming more of a cat fight of sorts than a
> discussion...people are getting hurt here and there just because of a
> stupid disagreement. If you have any more questions about the PK "story",
> go to the source and quit talking to people who either aren't involved or
> have biased opinions for one reason or another. Now you can't just talk
> behind his back anymore at least. Now he can at least read and respond to
> what people are saying. Hope this gets settled soon.
>
> -Donnie
>
Rob Martino
>Why is there such a distinction between Christian music and music made
>by Christian artists? What makes music Christian? I guess I would say
>that all music that reflects truth fufills the purpose of Christian
>music. Some music does reflect the specific truth about Christ and his
>life. Other music reflects truth about living a life seeking God's
>will. Other music reflects the truth that life without Christ is bleak
>and miserable (The recent Nine Inch Nails thread was all about that)
>Other music reflects the truth that being in love with another human is
>cool. What is the difference? Is God more pleased with one kind of
>music than the other?
>
>I actually think that this is a very interesting question. What is
>God's intention for music or for any other form of art? I have to say
>that I am not totally convinced that reflecting truth sums up God's
>intention for art, but I always seem to be led right back to that phrase
>about reflecting truth. So, I am very much interested in other's
>opinions on the purpose of music.
That is a good question, and something I think about. I think it is
first important to look at music in its basic sense....organization of
sound. Forget any words or lyrics, and then what is the purpose?
Can music in itself convey truth? Well I don't really see how. You
can write music which is inspired by certain truths but I can't
see how music can say anything objective in itself so there
must be another reason for music. The only thing I can come up with
is for our asthetic pleasure, something God gave us to enjoy and express
ourselves in a certain subjective way through the use of controlled sound.
Music is kind of a wierd concept of you think about it. How are various frequencies
and timbres of the audio spectrum, used in specific ways, capable of inspiring,
changing mood, sparking imagination, and just being downright nice to listen to?
Issues of connsonace and dissonance, and tension and resolution of frequencies
only seem to explain things so far....
Rob
--
Rob Martino
Cabletron Systems, Inc.
Rochester, New Hampshire, USA
Cwen97
any chance about the concert at Falls Church High School in Virginia,
where PK didn't play Grey Clouds, and when one of the fans asked why not,
he gave him some rude answer??
That was pretty funny, I didn't think anyone would actually go post about
it over the whole country!! Dakota's my favorite band, I guess PK was
rude, put I am begining to understand why, since it was the last night of
the tour.
Jerry B. Ray
>One good thing though is how good of friends vapsw... and jkane have
>become.(I throw allegiance to Jerry on this thread-no shock there eh?)
Heh. It's not _that_ brutal, really...
Unfortunately, as noted in my recent post about my experiences at
the Atlanta 77's show with some kids that, for some reason, really
struck a chord in me, I've at least partially found myself agreeing
with Jeremy. I was literally sitting down front at the Strand
praying that _somebody_ would say or do something to touch those
kids, since I did all I could listening to them and giving them
money to get in, but just couldn't find the right _words_ to say
to them (never been good with words, especially in person...).
And I _think_ maybe that prayer was answered, by the Curious Fools,
curiously enough :-)
JRjr
> But what I really want to post is;
>A) Dakoda will soon have a WWW
>B) Go and buy Hoi Polloi's new album "Happy Ever After"
>C) Go and buy Johnny Q Public's new album "Extraordinary"
> Watch the silly bickering and support real music...love pk
Mbison 1
Rolling Stones commenting on how their manager would have them pee(can I
say "pee" in here?) on a wall, then call the cops and get them
busted...all for publicity. Actually I'm saddened by what seems a waste of
time. One good thing though is how good of friends vapsw... and jkane have
become.(I throw allegiance to Jerry on this thread-no shock there eh?)
Jeffrey Parks
Jerry B. Ray <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>Unfortunately, as noted in my recent post about my experiences at
>the Atlanta 77's show with some kids that, for some reason, really
>struck a chord in me, I've at least partially found myself agreeing
>with Jeremy. I was literally sitting down front at the Strand
>praying that _somebody_ would say or do something to touch those
>kids, since I did all I could listening to them and giving them
>money to get in, but just couldn't find the right _words_ to say
>to them (never been good with words, especially in person...).
>And I _think_ maybe that prayer was answered, by the Curious Fools,
>curiously enough :-)
I also feel the same way a lot of times, but that's a result of being
a youth pastor for five years, and having seen numerous kids profoundly
influenced by the musicians they looked up to. Yeah, we're not supposed
to have idols, but tell that to the 15 year old "skater" who has no
one to look up to but people like Roger Martinez or Carey Womack. I'll
be honest. I don't want artists to feel like they have to preach, but
I still praise God for those who do, and rue the day when it becomes
unfashionable. Even today, I love it when an artist takes the time to
explain a song or share from his/her heart during a concert.
J Robert
Jeremy P. Kane
vap...@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray) wrote:
>In article <D7Isn...@midway.uchicago.edu> jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu
writes:
>Come to think of it, I guess I like it when the artists share stuff
>spontaneously, and not so much in a "scripted," "this is where we give
>the sermon" sort of way. It's hard to define, but I guess I like the
>"personal" approach the best, which is why I appreciate artists like
>Susan Ashton and Margaret Becker, who really make you feel like they're
>talking to _you_ in the way they share from the stage.
You said it! (You are starting to agree with me? Whoa! :^) ) Why do people
automatically announce that they don't want to hear "preaching" from the
stage? Heck, no one wants to hear "PREACHING," but what about some honest
sharing of what has happened in an artists life? There are folks in the
audience who look up to these guys, and to hear someone they look up to
saying, "you know, about 10 years ago, my life changed, and here's how..."
THAT is what I think should not disappear from the stage. Yet too many people
equate this with Bible-banging and preaching. It isn't the same, and it is
effective. And, most importantly, it doesn't require any particular talent or
call to do. Anyone, literally, can get on stage, in front of a crowd, and talk
about life. Eloquence, while nice, isn't needed.
That's how I feel, sorry if it offends anyone. I mean to implicate NO bands
when I wrote any of this, okay?
Jerry B. Ray
>You said it! (You are starting to agree with me? Whoa! :^) )
Well, just to keep you from getting carried away...
>Why do people
>automatically announce that they don't want to hear "preaching" from the
>stage?
Because if they're paying for a concert, they don't want to hear
"preaching."
>Heck, no one wants to hear "PREACHING," but what about some honest
>sharing of what has happened in an artists life?
I like honesty and reality and a personal approach, but you seem to
be just asking for the artist to give his/her personal testimony
(which could then be followed by "if you want to give your life to
Christ like I did...") at all their shows. Maybe this isn't
formally "preaching," but it's not much different. This isn't the
kind of thing I'm talking about.
>Anyone, literally, can get on stage, in front of a crowd, and talk
>about life. Eloquence, while nice, isn't needed.
I'm talking about a more down-to-earth kind of thing, preferably
not followed by an altar call or a 6-step plan of salvation. I can't
think of any examples offhand, but I know it when I hear it. A
"this happened to me at dinner last night" sort of thing.
JRjr
Jerry B. Ray
>Even today, I love it when an artist takes the time to
>explain a song or share from his/her heart during a concert.
Come to think of it, I guess I like it when the artists share stuff
spontaneously, and not so much in a "scripted," "this is where we give
the sermon" sort of way. It's hard to define, but I guess I like the
"personal" approach the best, which is why I appreciate artists like
Susan Ashton and Margaret Becker, who really make you feel like they're
talking to _you_ in the way they share from the stage.
JRjr
Bill Dozier
>I'm talking about a more down-to-earth kind of thing, preferably
>not followed by an altar call or a 6-step plan of salvation. I can't
>think of any examples offhand, but I know it when I hear it. A
>"this happened to me at dinner last night" sort of thing.
At the Steve Taylor concert, he said something like (after doing "Jim
Morrison's Grave"), "That's a song about worshipping dead rock stars....
Some thirsty people crossing the desert come upon a well of water and
when they bend over, they get enamoured with their own reflection and
never get around to taking a drink. I never knew Jim Morrison, but I
suspect that's what he was about. Some people come to the well and look
down and see nothing but darkness. I never knew Kurt Cobain; but I
suspect that was what he was about. Some thirsty people come to the well
and drink and find what they've always been looking for and drink from the
water." Well, that's about how I remember it; I'm sure Steve said it much
better than that. They then went into "Jesus is for Losers," and I lost it
completely (I can't even type this without my eyes watering) at the
start of the song instead of the end for a change.
A version of this monlogue is in the liner notes of the box set, so I'm
sure this wasn't spontaneous. On the other hand, it was *short*, related
to the *songs* instead of being a gratuitous sermon and it was *original*
and *interesting*. Most concert sermons are missing most of these qualities
and I suspect that's why most of us react negatively to them.
Bill
GIMMA A CUP OF COFFEE AND I'LL TELL YOU A STORY
> In article <3nga95$h...@acmey.gatech.edu>,
> vap...@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray) wrote:
> writes:
>
>>Come to think of it, I guess I like it when the artists share stuff
>>spontaneously, and not so much in a "scripted," "this is where we give
>>the sermon" sort of way.
>
hey, good to see you two coming together. watch out anyone who disagrees
with this duo....anyway, since i agree (and disagree) with both of you at
times, i thought i'd join in here...i wouldn't say some people don't like to
hear preaching from the stage. i've seen a lot of christian concerts where a
sermon (prepared) is given, followed by an alter call. a lot of people like
this. that's fine, but it shouldn't be the standard by which other musicians
are judged. Mylon, D&K, Carmen, (heck, even Rez occasionally) feel they can
use their music to open a door to their preaching. that's great as well, but
that doesn't mean EVERY musician HAS TO be a preacher as well. (Don't worry,
I'm not implying either of you feel this way, just that it seems to be a common
perception among Christians.)
> but what about some honest
> sharing of what has happened in an artists life? There are folks in the
> audience who look up to these guys, and to hear someone they look up to
> saying, "you know, about 10 years ago, my life changed, and here's how..."
It IS always nice to see someone talk about personal things. I remember seeing
the 77's in Columbus Ohio (best concert I've been to) and the promoter wanted a
"sermon" and alter call (seriously). The band left the stage and Aaron Smith,
without rehersal or warning, talked about how he came to know Christ AFTER
joining the 77's because of the daily witness of Mike and the others in the
band ( :p to those of you who doubt Mr. Roe). it was great, but not something
Aaron would feel comfortable doing night after night. the sevens just aren't
that kind of band, nor do they have to be.
Vigilantes of Love is another prime example. Bill doesn't talk much at all
from the stage, letting the music talk for him, but he always encourages people
to stay after and talk. THAT is when his Christ-like love shines through. He
is wonderful in one-on-one situations (as are most of the 77's though Mike is a
tough guy to read sometimes) and that is where his (and their) ministry is.
> THAT is what I think should not disappear from the stage. Yet too many people
> equate this with Bible-banging and preaching. It isn't the same, and it is
> effective. And, most importantly, it doesn't require any particular talent or
> call to do. Anyone, literally, can get on stage, in front of a crowd, and talk
> about life. Eloquence, while nice, isn't needed.
yeah, it's nice, but you'd be surprised at the people who can really let loose
while performing who can't speak in front of a crowd. everyone is different...
We are all called to minister, but not all called to preach. Let's hope we can
recognize that in our musicians and in the way they choose to present their
music, lives, and faith.
take care everybody
eric
Jeffrey Parks
Bill Dozier <doz...@titan.iwu.edu> wrote:
[great Steve Taylor "sermon" story -- thanks, Bill]
I remember on the I Predict tour, Steve had this *great* way of
introducing "Hero". I can't remember it now, but I do remember that
I actually cried. Anyone recall how this went?
J Robert
jkane
(vap...@prism.gatech.edu) says...
>>Why do people
>>automatically announce that they don't want to hear "preaching" from the
>>stage?
>
>Because if they're paying for a concert, they don't want to hear
>"preaching."
Well, my point is, why does everyone equate talking with "preaching?" They
are two quite seperate things, no? Like I said, no one, short of Carman fans,
WANTS a SERMON, but I really don't see how a time of personal sharing would
offend anyone.
>I like honesty and reality and a personal approach, but you seem to
>be just asking for the artist to give his/her personal testimony
>(which could then be followed by "if you want to give your life to
>Christ like I did...") at all their shows. Maybe this isn't
>formally "preaching," but it's not much different. This isn't the
>kind of thing I'm talking about.
I don't think I ever asked for a "if you want to give your life..." ending,
but I think, on the other hand, that God will only BLESS that action, never
would he punish it! He said it himself, "a house divided will not stand." If
he didn't bless that action, he'd be working against himself. He just won't
let witnessing from stage ruin the band. But, as Shadrach & Co. said, even if
he DOESN'T bless them.... I don't know, I guess I kinda see things like Steve
Taylor's time of sharing as beneficial, and in no way corny, offensive, or
cheap.
>I'm talking about a more down-to-earth kind of thing, preferably
>not followed by an altar call or a 6-step plan of salvation. I can't
>think of any examples offhand, but I know it when I hear it. A
>"this happened to me at dinner last night" sort of thing.
So am I, but again, I don't see how doing that will hurt. If nothing else, it
should be made clear, SOMEHOW, that each person needs to decide one way or
the other, soon. No one is promised a tomorrow, you know? What about those
kids at the 77's show? If no one told them that Christ died for them, and
they didn't know that they were responsible for it when they DID find out,
than what would happen to them? I mean, we don't know that they are still
alive today. Not to be morbid, but the fact is, I feel that a band has a
unique opportunity, one that many of us don't, and I feel like it is a shame
to let it go by. That's my thoughts...
Jerry B. Ray
>Well, my point is, why does everyone equate talking with "preaching?" They
>are two quite seperate things, no?
Yes, they are, but the example you gave seemed to fall more into the
realm of "preaching" than "talking." Conversely, when I saw REZ, Glenn
Kaiser delivered basically a sermon, but the way it was delivered made
it seem more like "talking" than "preaching." I don't have a good
definition of the distinction, just a gut feeling.
>I really don't see how a time of personal sharing would
>offend anyone.
Nobody's talking about offending anybody.
>I don't think I ever asked for a "if you want to give your life..." ending,
>but I think, on the other hand, that God will only BLESS that action, never
>would he punish it!
Nobody said anything about blessing or punishment.
>He said it himself, "a house divided will not stand." If
>he didn't bless that action, he'd be working against himself. He just won't
>let witnessing from stage ruin the band.
Nobody said anything about ruining the band. Look, we're straying from
the subject at hand and wandering into the land of rhetoric again (no,
I'm not saying that the Gospel is rhetoric, but the way you're using it
in your arguement is.)
>I don't know, I guess I kinda see things like Steve
>Taylor's time of sharing as beneficial, and in no way corny, offensive, or
>cheap.
The quote somebody posted from Steve Taylor is _exactly_ the kind of thing
that I like to hear. It was marvelous. It was brief, didn't lapse into
Christianese, and had the potential to really speak to people where they
are.
>So am I, but again, I don't see how doing that will hurt.
Nobody said it would _hurt_. I mean, aside from being a bit annoying
to people who've heard stage sermons 5000 times, there's nothing
_wrong_ with giving a "message" from the stage. I just think
there's a "more excellent way." Preferably whatever is said is
natural and grows from the music or something going on at the concert,
and not "this is the time where I preach," or "this is the time where
I give my personal testimony," or "this is the time where I present my
political views."
>If nothing else, it
>should be made clear, SOMEHOW, that each person needs to decide one way or
>the other, soon.
Why does this responsibility fall on the band, though? Because they're
on stage? I probably encountered more people over the course of my
day Friday than were in attendance at the 77's show, and not once did
I make this fact clear to any of them. The responsibility falls on all
of us, not just on the guys on the stage.
>What about those
>kids at the 77's show?
>I mean, we don't know that they are still
>alive today. Not to be morbid, but the fact is, I feel that a band has a
>unique opportunity, one that many of us don't, and I feel like it is a shame
>to let it go by. That's my thoughts...
The Fools were on stage for 45 minutes, and the Throes were up there
about an hour. I talked to them for better than 3 hours outside the
place. I got to know them personally, at least a bit, while the
bands on the stage didn't even know they were there. How is their
opportunity more unique than mine was, or more unique than the dozens
of opportunities that I have every day that I let pass me by?
jkane
>At the Steve Taylor concert, he said something like (after doing "Jim
>On the other hand, it was *short*, related
>to the *songs* instead of being a gratuitous sermon and it was *original*
>and *interesting*. Most concert sermons are missing most of these qualities
>and I suspect that's why most of us react negatively to them.
EXACTLY my point. It CAN be done, Steve Taylor and others like him prove it.
Not only is his "non-sermon" original and interesting, but it let people know
that their is a hunger out there in all of us, and it can't be filled in just
any way. He offered what God has, without being "preachy." I don't see how
this will in ANY way affect him adversely.
JHoover874
>I'm talking about a more down-to-earth kind of thing, preferably
>not followed by an altar call or a 6-step plan of salvation. I can't
>think of any examples offhand, but I know it when I hear it. A
>"this happened to me at dinner last night" sort of thing.
When I saw Rick Elias open for The Choir about 4 years ago, he was one of
the best at telling a story from his life experiences. My friend that I
took to that concert is Jewish and he had a lot of respect for what Rick
had to say because it wasn't a sermon yet it wasn't without content
either. It's too bad that Rick is out of the music business (as far as
recording his own stuff). He was one of the best songwriters in
"Christian" music...
:) Josh
Jerry B. Ray
>EXACTLY my point. It CAN be done, Steve Taylor and others like him prove it.
Like I said, the Steve Taylor quote is the kind of thing that I like to
see. Not even a trace of Christianese there.
>I don't see how
>this will in ANY way affect him adversely.
Again, nobody said anything about adverse effects on Steve. How did this
come into play here?
Steve R. Grunau
>to people who've heard stage sermons 5000 times, there's nothing
>_wrong_ with giving a "message" from the stage. I just think
oh yes. is it ever annoying. i've seen perry and the poor boys three
times here in calgary, and enjoyed each show quite a lot. but there's
this one part in the show where they're doing 'live like you mean it'
and in the middle perry tells this story about this monk whose name
escapes me who went to the roman circus and tried to stop the gladiator
fight and got killed for it. now this is a good story, and no doubt
a very powerful example: i enjoyed it the first time, put up with it the
second time, but i was just plain sick of it by show number 3. and now i
hesistate to see them because if there's one story i _don't_ want to hear...
this is a good example of how alot of xian bands tend to have their "message"
that they give by rote (although still from the heard), instead of just
talking and sharing off the cuff with the crowd, which would be a lot better
received by second and third time concert go-ers (which alot of us were).
Ed Rock
> Yeah, we're not supposed
> to have idols, but tell that to the 15 year old "skater" who has no
> one to look up to but people like Roger Martinez or Carey Womack. I'll
> be honest. I don't want artists to feel like they have to preach, but
> I still praise God for those who do, and rue the day when it becomes
> unfashionable. Even today, I love it when an artist takes the time to
> explain a song or share from his/her heart during a concert.
Yeah, I like the off the cuff sharing in a concert that could be called
preaching, but I think it seriously loses something when the artist feels
he/she needs to preach for an extended amount of time--like they'll be
heard for their many words. The strongest statements are said with few
words.
The best witness I have seen artists have is that after concert fan
banter thing. Like Jerry mentioned with Curious Fools, where the girl's
life was touched by those guys. They didn't feel compelled to reel her
in and talley up altar call numbers, but they did feel compelled to make
an entry in the diary of her life--something she'll remember for a long
time. Artists who take the time to make personal contact with the folks
in the audience make the bigger impact on impressionable kids.
Ed Rock | "I never think about tomorrow,
aka Ed Crabtree | I just live for today."
ercr...@email.unc.edu | --Smithereens
James Gadsby
>I also feel the same way a lot of times, but that's a result of being
>a youth pastor for five years, and having seen numerous kids profoundly
>influenced by the musicians they looked up to. Yeah, we're not supposed
>to have idols, but tell that to the 15 year old "skater" who has no
>one to look up to but people like Roger Martinez or Carey Womack. I'll
>be honest. I don't want artists to feel like they have to preach, but
>I still praise God for those who do, and rue the day when it becomes
>unfashionable. Even today, I love it when an artist takes the time to
>explain a song or share from his/her heart during a concert.
>J Robert
OK,
I know what happened with Roger Martinez (it was sad he was one of my
favorites), but what happened to Carey (aka Kosher) Womack? One Bad Pig was
one of my favorite bands!
jim