Disgusted With CARMAN
Will McDonald
In <5jqiao$5...@news.hic.net> "xponent" <xpo...@hic.net> writes:
>
>Okay, I admit it..I USED to be a Carman Fan.
I never was a fan, but I used to own a few of his VERY early albums.
>Long ago and far away he used to be a decent guy and minister..Now
he's Mr.
>Hollywood.
That's a little harsh...
>I wonder how he feels about working for Kushner-Locke, the company
that
>sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
>Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for
HBO as
>well as porn for national and international sales.
>I think I'd be more selective about WHO I worked for and endorsed and
WHO
>was paying my check.
Guilty by association is never grounds for condemnation. The Pharisees
condemned Jesus for eating and drinking (wine!) with prostitutes and
taxgathers...
Today, corporate ownership is so diversified and complex that you can
"get something" on just about anyone who works for a large company.
Is Carman *supporting* the production of "Erotic Confessions" by his
work with the company? I doubt it. I'm sure "Erotic Confessions"
brings in much more income than Carman's line of work...
>Talk about merchandising Jesus.....
Merchandising Jesus is another issue completely unrelated to the
ownership of Kushner-Locke. I was at a Family Bookstore last night,
and I'm throughly disgusted with the latest crops of "rapture" books
and "One World Government" conspiracies... Are we Christians or
militia members???
I felt like making a whip and chasing the poor employees out of the
store, but I realize that they were scarcely making minimum wage and
probably don't get hazardous duty pay...
Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores is
the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
(Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
--
"It's the blind leading the blond
It's the stuff, it's the stuff of country songs"
from "If God Will Send His Angels" -- U2
xponent
Okay, I admit it..I USED to be a Carman Fan.
Hollywood.
sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for HBO as
well as porn for national and international sales.
I think I'd be more selective about WHO I worked for and endorsed and WHO
was paying my check.
xponent
tpsy...@madness.tmok.com
xponent (xpo...@hic.net) wrote:
: Okay, I admit it..I USED to be a Carman Fan.
Carmen: King of Jesus Junk.
heh. :-)
- Dan =)
"The Psychotic One"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| | dan collette ... the psychotic one ... tpsycho1 | |
\___/ E-MAiL me: tpsy...@tmok.com \___/
E-MAiL BoMb and FlaMe me: dcol...@freenet.hut.fi
CoMMoNWEaLtH oF PLaNKeYe:http://users.tmok.com/~tpsycho1/plankeye/index.html
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Bev
In article <5jqiao$5...@news.hic.net>, xponent <xpo...@hic.net> wrote:
>I wonder how he feels about working for Kushner-Locke, the company that
>sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
>Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for HBO as
>well as porn for national and international sales.
Now hold on -- we can't lump all porn together. Are we talking the nice,
fluffy hotel-room soft stuff, or are we talking the "actresses with the
glazed looks in their eyes who clearly aren't getting anything out of
the experience except a little cocaine to get through the day, if indeed
they even agreed to THAT much" porn?
--
she gave me water
she gave me her books to carry [beverley r. white - wednesday at tezcat.com]
but the dream was gone [web pages in mid-domainname-registration]
i'm back in my sanctuary
Matt Laswell
Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >I wonder how he feels about working for Kushner-Locke, the company
: that
: >sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
: >Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for
: HBO as
: >well as porn for national and international sales.
: WHO
: >was paying my check.
: Guilty by association is never grounds for condemnation. The Pharisees
: condemned Jesus for eating and drinking (wine!) with prostitutes and
: taxgathers...
This is true. There are legitimate criticisms of Carman out there,
why weaken your case by adding bogus ones to the mix?
: Today, corporate ownership is so diversified and complex that you can
: "get something" on just about anyone who works for a large company.
: Is Carman *supporting* the production of "Erotic Confessions" by his
: work with the company? I doubt it. I'm sure "Erotic Confessions"
: brings in much more income than Carman's line of work...
*chuckle*
But what if they try to leverage synergy by using Carman on the soundtrack
to Erotic Confessions?
You have to admit, it's a funny image...
: >Talk about merchandising Jesus.....
: Merchandising Jesus is another issue completely unrelated to the
: ownership of Kushner-Locke. I was at a Family Bookstore last night,
: and I'm throughly disgusted with the latest crops of "rapture" books
: and "One World Government" conspiracies... Are we Christians or
: militia members???
I've had the same reactions, particularly in my local Family "Christian"
Store.
: I felt like making a whip and chasing the poor employees out of the
: store, but I realize that they were scarcely making minimum wage and
: probably don't get hazardous duty pay...
: Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores is
: the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
: (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
I'm going to agree. Inasmuch as preoccupation with eschatology
distracts people from feeding the hungry, healing the sick, clothing
the naked, visiting the imprisoned and spreading the gospel outside
the walls of the Church, it is not from God.
- matt
josh mast
wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will McDonald) wrote:
>Merchandising Jesus is another issue completely unrelated to the
>ownership of Kushner-Locke. I was at a Family Bookstore last night,
>and I'm throughly disgusted with the latest crops of "rapture" books
>and "One World Government" conspiracies... Are we Christians or
>militia members???
hey, it'd be cool if chrisitanity was a militia.. we'd get to carry
guns and all..
bullets with subliminal love messages in them..
-josh
stephen trachian
On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, josh mast wrote:
> wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will McDonald) wrote:
>
> >Merchandising Jesus is another issue completely unrelated to the
> >ownership of Kushner-Locke. I was at a Family Bookstore last night,
> >and I'm throughly disgusted with the latest crops of "rapture" books
> >and "One World Government" conspiracies... Are we Christians or
> >militia members???
can we not be both? :) You know THEY are out to get you!
One thing I thought was funny: The local library did not know how to
classify several "prophetical" books, so they ended up in the science
fiction section. :) -the only reason I saw them.
>
> hey, it'd be cool if chrisitanity was a militia.. we'd get to carry
> guns and all..
You don't need no stinkin' militia, guns are cool.
> bullets with subliminal love messages in them..
"scriptureshells"???
stephen trachian
stra...@moccasun.utc.edu
SF59:So you think you're radical...
Tulsa Band
Bev wrote:
>
> In article <5jqiao$5...@news.hic.net>, xponent <xpo...@hic.net> wrote:
> >I wonder how he feels about working for Kushner-Locke, the company that
> >sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
> >Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for HBO as
> >well as porn for national and international sales.
>
> Now hold on -- we can't lump all porn together. Are we talking the nice,
> fluffy hotel-room soft stuff, or are we talking the "actresses with the
> glazed looks in their eyes who clearly aren't getting anything out of
> the experience except a little cocaine to get through the day, if indeed
> they even agreed to THAT much" porn?
Um, I'm not sure that's...
Oh, never mind.
--Dallas Koehn, who really isn't sure.
Dru
In article <19970426020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, lol...@aol.com
(LOLLI J) wrote:
> HELLO..
>
> I though I was all alone. I went to a concert recently and SOMETHING was
> missing..Duh the annointing... sad sad sad..... LOLLIJ
I went to two last year... sadly, all the opportunity I had. :( But let
me tell you... the annointing was all *over* him! Maybe you just went on
an off night... He's only human, you know... he's entitled to have one.
:)
~Donna
--
The World says I'm crazy, but I'm just.... Radically Saved!!
Get Thee behind me, Satan; I'm not 4 sale.
josh mast
stephen trachian <stra...@moccasun.utc.edu> wrote:
>"scriptureshells"???
no.. scriptureshells. (c) 1997 josh mast
>stephen trachian
>stra...@moccasun.utc.edu
-josh
Will McDonald
In <iama2j-2504...@207.230.56.183> iam...@advertisnet.com
(Dru) writes:
>
>
>In article <19970426020...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lol...@aol.com
>(LOLLI J) wrote:
>
>> HELLO..
>>
>> I though I was all alone. I went to a concert recently and
SOMETHING was
>> missing..Duh the annointing... sad sad sad..... LOLLIJ
>
>I went to two last year... sadly, all the opportunity I had. :( But
let
>me tell you... the annointing was all *over* him! Maybe you just went
on
>an off night... He's only human, you know... he's entitled to have
one.
How does one know if another is annointed by the Spirit? (serious
question)
What is the criteria? Is it objective at all?
Will -- who's never really understood what others are talking about
when they describe "the annointing"
Troy M. Miller
Dru <iam...@advertisnet.com> wrote in article <iama2j-
<snip>
i know i should probably just keep my big mouth firmly *shut* ... but i'm a
college kid, i'm allowed...
i just noticed dru was here, so i was wondering if i could get an opinion
about this whole carman/carman ministries buying of the, uh, rather
outlandishly priced ranch that was mentioned here recently.
now, i don't want to sound condemning, nor start a nasty debate about the,
uh, "quality" of carman's present music, but, like many here, i grew up on
carman, and respected him highly. heck, our youth group did several dramas
to his music, and i even played the "carman" character a couple of times!
i also remember not having much moola as a kid - but everytime i went to a
carman concert, i emptied all my pockets when the basket came around.
(that was back in the free "love offering" days - does he still do that?)
i can imagine that there are similar young people out there today doing the
same thing, eager to contribute to God's work. i must admit i'm a
little... ok, i'll be nice - *peeved* about the fact that this money seems
to be going to buy an overpriced ranch.
thoughts?
--
troy (a.k.a. "Thor")
tmmi...@mtu.edu
i wanna drink out of that fountain, on a hill
called double cure. i wanna show you my
allegiance Lord. i wanna be a Son of yours.
- vigilantes of love
LOLLI J
HELLO..
I though I was all alone. I went to a concert recently and SOMETHING was
missing..Duh the annointing... sad sad sad..... LOLLIJ
http://members.aol.com/LOLLIJ/LOLLI.html
Judi Morris
Eagle's Wings Records
16845N.29th AVE Suite 525
Phoenix, AZ 85023
John v
Once upon a time, wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will McDonald) wrote:
>Will -- who's never really understood what others are talking about
>when they describe "the annointing"
I suspect it means that they have been successfully emotionally manipulated
..
John v.
Anyone can be sentimental about the Nativity; any fool can feel like a
Christian at Christmas. But Easter is the main event; If you don't
believe in the resurection, you're not a believer.
-John Irving _A Prayer for Owen Meany_
Cheef Dan
LOLLI J (lol...@aol.com) wrote:
: I though I was all alone. I went to a concert recently and SOMETHING was
: missing..Duh the annointing... sad sad sad..... LOLLIJ
Well, it's not his fault.
He specifically has "the annointing" listed in the in the artists' rider
of all his concert contracts. If the annointing was missing, it was
because the promoter failed to expend the necessary funds to purchase it.
--
I appreciate "Amen", "Praise the Lord", and "Hallelujah!" But whoever it
is, please stop shouting "You da man!" - caption to a favorite cartoon
Sean Volke
stephen trachian <stra...@moccasun.utc.edu> writes:
>On Fri, 25 Apr 1997, josh mast wrote:
>> bullets with subliminal love messages in them..
>"scriptureshells"???
<gunsoffire>Bullets of love</gunsoffire>
snail
--
//
\X/snail sn...@pobox.com.au
I'm a man of my word. In the end, that's all there is. - Avon
http://melvin.silas.unsw.edu.au/~s-snail/
Jerry B. Ray
In article <iama2j-2504...@207.230.56.183>,
Dru <iam...@advertisnet.com> wrote:
>I went to two last year... sadly, all the opportunity I had. :( But let
>me tell you... the annointing was all *over* him!
What does "the annointing" look like, anyway?
JRjr
--
%%%%% vap...@prism.gatech.edu %%%%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"I stay driven 'cause there's nowhere to park
I can't shut my eyes-I'm afraid of the dark"
-- Steve Taylor --
caleb
> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores is
> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
>
> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore. But I'd like
to hear your explanation of "the clearest evidence of the demonic in
contemporary society," unless you're just being sarcastic. Haven't
heard that view before.
caleb
Jason and Heather
Bev <wedn...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
>
> --
> she gave me water
> she gave me her books to carry [beverley r. white - wednesday at tezcat.com]
> but the dream was gone [web pages in mid-domainname-registration]
> i'm back in my sanctuary
Am I dreaming, or did Bev just quote the Swoon in her .sig?
I am not a brave man
who could walk across the desert
with no water
I'd swallow up the ocean
still I would thirst deeply
for more
Whose hands are these?
Probably one of the best Christian bands of all time. Figures they'd
have only one album.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
--
"The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
restrictions and without chaperones and obey nobody."
BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
Jason and Heather
Matt Laswell <las...@wwa.com> wrote:
> Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> :
> : Is Carman *supporting* the production of "Erotic Confessions" by
> : his work with the company? I doubt it. I'm sure "Erotic
> : Confessions" brings in much more income than Carman's line of
> : work...
>
> *chuckle*
>
> But what if they try to leverage synergy by using Carman on the
> soundtrack to Erotic Confessions?
>
> You have to admit, it's a funny image...
Image? When have you ever seen enough of Erotic Confessions to form
such an image?
*Tsktsk*
shearn
Jason and Heather wrote:
>
> Bev <wedn...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
> >
> > --
> > she gave me water
> > she gave me her books to carry [beverley r. white - wednesday at tezcat.com]
> > but the dream was gone [web pages in mid-domainname-registration]
> > i'm back in my sanctuary
>
> Am I dreaming, or did Bev just quote the Swoon in her .sig?
>
> I am not a brave man
> who could walk across the desert
> with no water
>
> I'd swallow up the ocean
> still I would thirst deeply
> for more
>
> Whose hands are these?
>
> Probably one of the best Christian bands of all time. Figures they'd
> have only one album.
>
> r.m.c resident atheist
>
> --
> "The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
> like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
> restrictions and without chaperones and obey nobody."
> BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
No, it's actually from Chagall Guevera. BTW where can I get a Swoon
record, I keep hearing about them.
later, colin
Bob Weigel
>Long ago and far away he used to be a decent guy and minister..Now he's Mr.
>Hollywood.
>sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
>Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for HBO as
>well as porn for national and international sales.
>was paying my check.
Gee I dunno. I mean IF you knew the "connections" with the companies
that produce most of ccm right now, that would NAIL about everybody.
Biblically, it isn't wrong to take money from a porno company. I'd
GLADLY work with a porno company to produce a Christian video IF I
was running the show. Know why? Right. God did not call us to
JUDGE the world. IF they reject him they already ARE judged. But
rather he called us to be a light to the world. And what BETTER way
to be a light than to allow such a company first hand experience with
his workings? REALITY: The earth is the Lord's and EVERYTHING that's
in it. Those Porno companies only THINK they own what they have. WE
being in the light, should know better, and if the Lord makes it available
for the use of his kingdom, and it doesn't call for compromise in OUR
actions, by all means take it.
ON THE OTHER HAND, we definately want to take care not to be
yolked together with evil. Therefore, I'd be REAL careful about the
contract....and make sure that I had ultimate control over things.
If the porno company had the right to alter scripts, etc....I'd choose
to have no part in it.
This is basic Christian stewardship. MOST of us work for evil
people. God's put us there for a reason. The world is an evil place.
It's not up to us to point out their evil (unless somebody is being
swayn towards it). If we take a job, whatever it might be, we work
that job to the glory of God and abstain from ANYTHING evil our employer
might call US to do. Otherwise, there would be Christian hit men, etc.
Abstain from all evil. There is no little white lie. God calls us to
personal purity.
Meanwhile, our employer, though probably not walking with God, hires
us to do a legit service.....given that we have followed the guidelines
laid out so far. He/she probably knows our stand fairly soon, and they
put THEY become the person in Malachi who puts God to the test to see if
he will not bless them! (We, meanwhile, are a priest, and what we receive
from them as salary is actually like a tithe/offering coming into the temple.
We, the priests, do NOT put God to the test.)
There's some basic perspective on the matter. Hope this helps. Like
I've said before, I don't believe any of the big name artists took the
directions I'd have taken....but then that's why they're big name artists.
:-) Carman is a really talented guy, but God's given LOTS of people talent
in music, and not many of us get to that level of fame/prosperity. It has
to do with how well you work with the industry....and I think a lot of the
artists have done what they've done because they just didn't know any better,
and stumbled into their position.
My biggest gripe with Carman, as an example, is that he seems to think
God has this HUGE army. I wish it was so. But the bible rightly says
"You will know them by their fruits". PERHAPS Carman hasn't walked into
the churches of today as an UNKNOWN for TOO LONG and he's forgotten what it
is to be ignored by masses of people as you long to be in relationship with
them. This is not the fruit of the spirit in these peoples lives, but rather
an indication of the presence of SPIRITUAL CANCER!!!! Why doesn't Carman
TELL THEM?! Rather he leads them in cheers. Gripe #1 with the big guy, and
the only one I can think of right off aside from his occasionally somewhat
coarse jesting.
-Bob
Liz Knuth
Jerry B. Ray (vap...@prism.gatech.edu) wrote:
: In article <iama2j-2504...@207.230.56.183>,
: Dru <iam...@advertisnet.com> wrote:
: >I went to two last year... sadly, all the opportunity I had. :( But
: >let me tell you... the annointing was all *over* him!
: What does "the annointing" look like, anyway?
You know.
"Like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down the beard,
even Aaron's beard, that went down to the skirts of his garments."
HTH.
Liz
--
Elizabeth T. Knuth ekn...@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu
http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~eknuth/ McQ
Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things
proudly and contemptuously against the righteous. Ps. 31:18. NTIBOA.
Bryce Utting
Liz Knuth (EKN...@tiny.computing.csbsju.edu) wrote:
>: What does "the annointing" look like, anyway?
>
>You know.
>
>"Like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down the beard,
>even Aaron's beard, that went down to the skirts of his garments."
Kilt. YM, "kilt".
>HTH.
JTTH, butting
--
Bryce Utting http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting
the cross before me, the world behind me
no turning back
Dru
In article <01bc5201$aac03760$0f02...@junk.mtu.mtu.edu>, "Troy M. Miller"
<tmmi...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> i just noticed dru was here, so i was wondering if i could get an opinion
> about this whole carman/carman ministries buying of the, uh, rather
> outlandishly priced ranch that was mentioned here recently.
Well... thank you for noticing my presence. :) As far as my opinion on
the "ranch"... a couple things. 1) It is several acres (32 if I
remember), but i wouldn't call it a *ranch*. Carman's a dyed-in-the-wool
city boy from Trenton, New Jersey, even though he did live in Tulsa for
many years. You can take the boy outta Jersey butcha can't... you know
the rest. ;) 2) Carman Ministries bought the property and Carman
Licciardello pays them rent every month for the use of it. When they can
get proper zoning (shouldn't be long) the Carman Ministries offices will
be moved into the house *as well*. Now, I don't know about y'all... but I
wouldn't want to share my home with the people I worked with; it's really
not the best situation. 3) (I know, I said "a couple..." sorry :) )
Carman Ministries *lost* approximately $1 million on last year's tour.
They should be able to make it up this year since he's doing parks and
fairs, which he gets *paid* for. Needless to say though, this was quite a
cause for concern. He actually at one point considered just selling
*everything* and starting all over. Praise God, he didn't have to; it
would have been disastrous for his staff, just like for anyone losing
their job. But the point is, yes, Carman has a nice home, nice clothes,
drives a nice car... but he doesn't have a *love* for these material
things. *That* is what the Bible says is a sin, the *love* of money... or
anything else more than God.
> i also remember not having much moola as a kid - but everytime i went to a
> carman concert, i emptied all my pockets when the basket came around.
> (that was back in the free "love offering" days - does he still do that?)
> i can imagine that there are similar young people out there today doing the
> same thing, eager to contribute to God's work. i must admit i'm a
> little... ok, i'll be nice - *peeved* about the fact that this money seems
> to be going to buy an overpriced ranch.
Well, if you emptied your pockets (and I know Carman appreciated it) you
were one of the few. Most people at the concert put in *zip*. Even the
adults. Remember what I wrote above about them losing $1 million last
year on the tour? Most of the money for the ministry comes from...
financial partners (people who support him monthly), royalties, etc. from
the records, and his recording contract. They *never* make enough from
the love offering to cover the expense of the concert, and rarely does
counting in mechandise sales (t-shirts, cd's, etc.) make ends meet. So,
no worries, the money you put in the bucket at the concert didn't go to
buy this "ranch" as you call it; that came from his contract, which is
money he earned by anyone's definition of the term.
In Christ and Not 4 Sale,
~Donna
P.S. Listen to this song (Not 4 Sale); it'll give you a very clear
perspective on Carman's attitude toward God, money, talent, and satan. :)
Tulsa Band
Jason and Heather wrote:
>
> Matt Laswell <las...@wwa.com> wrote:
> >
> > Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> > :
> > : Is Carman *supporting* the production of "Erotic Confessions" by
> > : his work with the company? I doubt it. I'm sure "Erotic
> > : Confessions" brings in much more income than Carman's line of
> > : work...
> >
> > *chuckle*
> >
> > But what if they try to leverage synergy by using Carman on the
> > soundtrack to Erotic Confessions?
> >
> > You have to admit, it's a funny image...
>
> Image? When have you ever seen enough of Erotic Confessions to form
> such an image?
>
> *Tsktsk*
Actually, Bob Larson is a great source of porn without guilt. He
has semi-regular offers 'for adults only' in which, for a large
minimum donation, he'll send you a video 'exposing' the depths of
depravity in the world of rock'n'roll. Shocking and brash, but
necessary to truly understand how nekkid these people can get!
As if I couldn't make an educated guess that the 53 year old
drummer doing 4 pre-teens a night was perhaps less than ideal
from a Christian perspective...
--Dallas "Hey--It Was Research" Koehn; tul...@ionet.net
Will McDonald
In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
>
>> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores
is
>> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
>>
>> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
>
>Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
I'm glad to hear of your reaction. It shows some spiritual
vitality. :-)
>But I'd like
>to hear your explanation of "the clearest evidence of the demonic in
>contemporary society," unless you're just being sarcastic.
It's a bit of an overstatement.... but it expresses my perspective
pretty well.
A bit of my theological perspective
-----------------------------------
Note: This is a spur of the moment theological synopsis, so it is
not carefully organized and is probably slightly out-of-balance.
I believe that there are powers that (from our vantage point) work
against the Kingdom of God and the witness of the gospel of Jesus
Christ upon this earth. These powers are under the authority of
Christ, but given much latitude to tempt, afflict, and oppose
believers. (These powers are culpable for their rebellion and will
face judgment.) Frequently, Christians refer to the head of the
powers as "Satan" (literally, "the adversary"), but often Christians
will refer to the whole groups of spiritual beings with the singular
personification of "Satan" as well... (Personally, I prefer to use
the term, "the demonic," to refer to the collective evil powers that
oppose God and humankind.)
While I believe that the demonic sometimes afflicts individuals,
usually the demonic manipulates institutions such as social
institutions such as governments, religious bodies, corporations,
etc... This view does not invalidate the reality of human
sinfulness, nor does it release humankind from the guilt or
consequences of their actions.
What I Meant
------------
"Christian" bookstores tend to stock what sells. That's just good
business. No matter how good and worthy some projects are (books,
magazines, music), many artists and writer will not be able to make
a living (or even get published/produced) because their work does
not appeal to the broadest spectrum of "Christian" consumers.
The main source of the problem is the deadness of American churches.
(NOTE: I'm not measuring a "dead" or "live" church by standards
such as baptisms, revivalistic meetings, excitement, reputation,
building programs, zeal for a particular religious or political
agenda, "tongues"-speaking, the quantity of "miracles," the casting
out of "demons," or even the maintenance of orthodoxy. A church is
dead if it is not doing the things that Jesus did: loving God and
one another, working for justice, helping the poor, preaching the
good news, interacting with society in a responsible and cautious
manner, and developing and nurturing intellectual and spiritual
growth of it members and society. There may be many "live" members
in a "dead" church and many "dead" members in a "live" church.
However, I believe that, as a whole, American Christendom is cold
and stale, bordering on death.)
The most vocal portion of the American church has become demonized.
We seem to be doing everything BUT the things that Christ has called
us to do. The church spends its time fighting against religious
liberty (the whole school prayer debacle), fighting among itself,
clinging to unrighteous (according to God's standards of justice and
compassion) political ideologies, reacting to issues rather than
working through them, and promoting paranoia and intellectual
suicide.
This manifests itself in the inventory of the typical Christian
bookstore.
Certainly human sin is responsible for most of this situation, but
there is something more pervasive here than just depravity. It is
too well organized and interconnected for me to believe that it is
just sin.
For better or worse, that's my half-baked theory...
Will -- who is alternately been called a mindless fundamentalist or
a weak-minded liberal (Hmmm.... an item of consistency, I'm
considered mentally defective.)
Matt Laswell
Tulsa Band (Tul...@ionet.net) wrote:: > > But what if they try to leverage synergy by using Carman on the
: > > soundtrack to Erotic Confessions?
: > >
: > > You have to admit, it's a funny image...
: >
: > Image? When have you ever seen enough of Erotic Confessions to form
: > such an image?
: >
: > *Tsktsk*
: Actually, Bob Larson is a great source of porn without guilt. He
: has semi-regular offers 'for adults only' in which, for a large
: minimum donation, he'll send you a video 'exposing' the depths of
: depravity in the world of rock'n'roll. Shocking and brash, but
: necessary to truly understand how nekkid these people can get!
: As if I couldn't make an educated guess that the 53 year old
: drummer doing 4 pre-teens a night was perhaps less than ideal
: from a Christian perspective...
I'm trying really hard to figure out if you're serious or not here, Dallas.
On the one hand, I couldn't imagine someone actually doing that. On
the other hand, we are talking about Bob Larson here.
- matt
Matt Laswell
: : >
: : >> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores
: : is
: : >> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
: : >>
: : >> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
: : >
: : >Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
: I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
: Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your first
: statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
: overstatement.
Then make an argument.
- matt
Will McDonald
In <5k0234$a...@garcia.efn.org> b...@efn.org (Bob Weigel) writes:
[in the midst of lots of good points]
>...we definately want to take care not to be yolked together with
evil...
you better believe it... you might get scrambled. :-D
Will
Brian Tegart
Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
: >
: >> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores
: is
: >> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
: >>
: >> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
: >
: >Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your first
statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
overstatement.
Brian
bri...@southwind.net
Bob Weigel
In article <5k2c1t$i...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Will McDonald <wmc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>In <5k0234$a...@garcia.efn.org> b...@efn.org (Bob Weigel) writes:
>
>[in the midst of lots of good points]
>
>>...we definately want to take care not to be yolked together with
>evil...
>
>you better believe it... you might get scrambled. :-D
>
:-) Wooops. I think there's a subliminal kind of reason I did that....
I hate eggs, and somebody was integrating them into burritos they
were going to serve up here right as I was writing this as I recall.
Anyway, thanks for pointing that out. I haven't gotten to laugh
at myself near enough lately. :-) -Bob
Patrick McNamara
In article <5k2lq6$n...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will McDonald) wrote:
>
> The main source of the problem is the deadness of American churches.
>
> (NOTE: I'm not measuring a "dead" or "live" church by standards
> such as baptisms, revivalistic meetings, excitement, reputation,
> building programs, zeal for a particular religious or political
> agenda, "tongues"-speaking, the quantity of "miracles," the casting
> out of "demons," or even the maintenance of orthodoxy. A church is
> dead if it is not doing the things that Jesus did: loving God and
> one another, working for justice, helping the poor, preaching the
> good news, interacting with society in a responsible and cautious
> manner, and developing and nurturing intellectual and spiritual
> growth of it members and society. There may be many "live" members
> in a "dead" church and many "dead" members in a "live" church.
> However, I believe that, as a whole, American Christendom is cold
> and stale, bordering on death.)
>
Excellent post. If 'American Christendom' paid more attention to the second
half of the above paragraph ('...things that Jesus did...'), the first half
would fall into place naturally.
Patrick McNamara, dad to Connor (11/93) and Colleen (5/95)
pmcn...@enter.net
"If more sheep are cloned, don't be surprised if they come out looking like
modern day journalists." -Mike Royko
Carol
Will McDonald wrote:
: How does one know if another is annointed by the Spirit? (serious
: question)
:
: What is the criteria? Is it objective at all?
:
: Will -- who's never really understood what others are talking about
: when they describe "the annointing"
Good question. People can fake a lot of things.
...............................................
Carol
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/3729/
...............................................
Carol
John v wrote:
: I suspect it means that they have been successfully emotionally manipulated
Hmmmm......interesting. <G>
Will McDonald
In <5k2qnr$9...@opal.southwind.net> bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net (Brian
Tegart) writes:
>
>Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
>: >
>: >> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian"
bookstores
>: is
>: >> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
>: >>
>: >> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
>: >
>: >Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
>
>I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
Yes they do! (Of course, possession of a Bible doesn't mean that you
actually read it...) :-)
>
>Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your first
>statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
>overstatement.
Yes, it is an over-statement (and I think I freely admitted it in the
previous post), but I'm not sure that it is "grossly" overstated.
I hope you picked up that I'm not necessarily blasting "Christian"
bookstores (they do sell Bibles), but rather using the inventory of
Christian bookstores as a mirror to the folk interests and beliefs of
the American eva
ngelical community.
As I said, it was half-baked.... just wait till it's finished!
Tulsa Band
Matt Laswell wrote:
>
> Tulsa Band (Tul...@ionet.net) wrote:
>
> : Actually, Bob Larson is a great source of porn without guilt. He
> : has semi-regular offers 'for adults only' in which, for a large
> : minimum donation, he'll send you a video 'exposing' the depths of
> : depravity in the world of rock'n'roll. Shocking and brash, but
> : necessary to truly understand how nekkid these people can get!
>
> : As if I couldn't make an educated guess that the 53 year old
> : drummer doing 4 pre-teens a night was perhaps less than ideal
> : from a Christian perspective...
>
> I'm trying really hard to figure out if you're serious or not here,
> Dallas.
>
> On the one hand, I couldn't imagine someone actually doing that.
> On the other hand, we are talking about Bob Larson here.
:-)
Well, I threw in the part about the 53 year old drummer and the
pre-teens,
but I have heard the offer for the adults-only rock'n'roll expose of the
sin behind the scenes at least twice. If it's not at least R-rated
material,
he very much wants the audience to expect such. Let's face it--there are
lotsa well-dressed church folk who have a repressed craving for flesh
just like the rest of... er, you. The chance to see some skin for a few
bucks and in the name of Truth...
I'm reminded of a police officer in the church I grew up in who told
our group about their 'pornography awareness training' or some such
thing. The department bought several stacks of dirty magazines, from
Playboy to OUI to Juicy On The John (I createth not). They passed them
out to the entire room and gave the guys 15-20 minutes to look, so
they'd be able to identify pornography if they ever came across it in
the line of duty.
My friend flipped open the issue handed him to see a transexual in
bondage (he went into more detail, but I don't see the need...) and
he figured that was enough training for one day. He split.
That's where I got the inspiration for that last bit. I'm not sure
how much help we need identifying lasciviousness. It's actual art
we seem to have a problem distinguishing...
Sorry to bewilder!
--Dallas Koehn, who only wants to see the video in order to better
understand Bob Larson and not in the least for the
chance at some groupie buns...
Brian Tegart
Matt Laswell (las...@wwa.com) wrote:
: Brian Tegart (bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net) wrote:
: : Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: : : In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
: : : >
: : : >> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian" bookstores
: : : is
: : : >> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
: : : >>
: : : >> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
: : : >
: : : >Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
: : I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
: : Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your first
: : statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
: : overstatement.
: Then make an argument.
All I'm saying is that would something that is "the clearest evidence
of the demonic" be involved in spreading God's word? Yes, many things
they sell are simply for profit, both the store's and the artist or
manufacturer, but so much of what you can get in a Christian bookstore
edifies and helps Christians. Would Satan be behind all this? I think
of the verses Matthew 12:25-26:
"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided
against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided
against itself shall not stand:
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then
his kingdom stand?"
That's it. That's all I meant.
Brian
bri...@southwind.net
Will McDonald
In <5k55cv$e...@opal.southwind.net> bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net (Brian
Tegart) writes:
>
>Matt Laswell (las...@wwa.com) wrote:
>: Brian Tegart (bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net) wrote:
>: : Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: : : In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
>: : : >
>: : : >> Will -- who thinks that the inventory of most "Christian"
bookstores
>: : : is
>: : : >> the clearest evidence of the demonic in contemporary society
>: : : >>
>: : : >> (Yes. I said it. What are you going to do about it?)
>: : : >
>: : : >Personally, I cringe whenever I see a Christian bookstore.
>
>: : I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
>
>: : Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your
first
>: : statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
>: : overstatement.
>
>: Then make an argument.
>
>All I'm saying is that would something that is "the clearest evidence
>of the demonic" be involved in spreading God's word?
Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
*selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
As for the devices of the demonic, the evil one and his minions seem
happy to spread the gospel of legalism, the gospel of religiousity, the
gospel of jingoism, etc... -- as long as believers avoid being salt and
light.
>Yes, many things
>they sell are simply for profit, both the store's and the artist or
>manufacturer, but so much of what you can get in a Christian bookstore
>edifies and helps Christians.
In my experience (yes, it is limited to Christian bookstores in the
South and Kenosha, Wisconsin), I would say that there are some good
things there, but usually, they don't sell very well. Benny Hinn and
Tim LaHaye seem to be the big sellers right now...
>Would Satan be behind all this? I think
>of the verses Matthew 12:25-26:
>
>"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom
divided
>against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house
divided
>against itself shall not stand:
>And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall
then
>his kingdom stand?"
>
>That's it. That's all I meant.
I understand your point. It is valid. I'm just not sure that you
picked up on mine. (I didn't communicate it that clearly
originally...)
Will -- who kinda wishes he hadn't said anything... :-)
John Swick
In article <5k2lq6$n...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
Will McDonald <wmc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>While I believe that the demonic sometimes afflicts individuals,
>usually the demonic manipulates institutions such as social
>institutions such as governments, religious bodies, corporations,
>etc... This view does not invalidate the reality of human
>sinfulness, nor does it release humankind from the guilt or
>consequences of their actions.
As an aside...I agree with this. I once had a Sunday school teacher
who was teaching on this very subject. To him, the greatest area of
concentration for this type of demonic activity were the media and
seminaries.
---J. J.
--
**********************************************************************
J. J. Swick, E911 Software Design, The Company Formerly Known as BNR
(919) 991-8782, esn 294-8782
**********************************************************************
Bobthony
>
> Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
> Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
> *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
> trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
Oh, there's a concept...a business, trying to make money...UNHEARD OF!
I'm going to open up my own store, and stock the shelves full of stuff
nobody will buy. Yea, that's what I'll do...I'll make no money, in fact
I'll lose money. So my goal for opening my store is to lose money...
seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want. The
sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
--
Bobthony - "Blaa, blaa, blaa. Yackidy shmackidy!"
=============
Life is never fair, it owes me nothing.
Just when I had it all, I lost everything,
but somehow God is good, and God is loving,
and just when I lost it all I gained everything.
I know why the caged bird sings...it's for me...
- Luxury
=============
ach...@vt.edu
Jerry B. Ray
>> Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
>> Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
>> *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
>> trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, there's a concept...a business, trying to make money...UNHEARD OF!
>I'm going to open up my own store, and stock the shelves full of stuff
>nobody will buy. Yea, that's what I'll do...I'll make no money, in fact
>I'll lose money. So my goal for opening my store is to lose money...
>seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want. The
>sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
>selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
That's EXACTLY the point that Will is making. He's not trying to say
that the Christian Bookstores are some sort of Evil Plot Of Satan out
to pump Christian consumers full of wonky theology and such. He's saying
that the fact that "what sells" in Christian Bookstores is so full of
wonky theology and such that it seems obvious that the Christian consumers
who are demanding the stuff are pretty mixed-up.
At least, as far as I've understood what Will is saying. Apologies if I
put words in his mouth...
Melody Kewl
Hello. :)
vap...@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray) writes:
> At least, as far as I've understood what Will is saying. Apologies if I
> put words in his mouth...
>
> JRjr
Just as long as you don't plan to suck them back out if you did.
That would pretty much gross me out. ;)
Actually, that whole figure of speech kind of gives me the
heebie jeebies. (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, because
I am almost out.) ;)
Melody
"Can Jerry come out and play?"
Kewl ;)
Matt Laswell
Bobthony (ach...@vt.edu) wrote:
: >
: > Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
: > Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
: > *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
: > trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Oh, there's a concept...a business, trying to make money...UNHEARD OF!
: I'm going to open up my own store, and stock the shelves full of stuff
: nobody will buy. Yea, that's what I'll do...I'll make no money, in fact
: I'll lose money. So my goal for opening my store is to lose money...
: seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want. The
: sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
: selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
That's not a problem, except that they tend to call themselves
ministries and stamp "Christ" all over things.
- matt "no man can serve two masters" laswell
Ed Rock
On 28 Apr 1997, Brian Tegart wrote:
> Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
> : In <33627C...@maui.net> caleb <ca...@maui.net> writes:
> : >
>
> I've heard they even sell BIBLES there! :)
And your point would be? You can get Bibles at grocery stores, Wal-Mart,
nearly any bookstore, department stores, and so forth. Selling Bibles
does not nullify Will's assessment of cbses
> Will, you had some good points in your post, but I think your first
> statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
> overstatement.
I tend to agree with Will, as any search of my prior posts on UseNet will
attest. CBSes seem to anesthetize the church and make it feel good rather
than spurring it on to doing the things Jesus said for us to do. This is
certainly not to say that a CBS' job is to spur us on, but it's certainly
not to immobilize us. Sure, there are a few important tools sold at
CBSes, but the vast majority of the items that make it possible for them
to stay open are detrimental at best and more probably dangerous.
Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu/~ecrab Ed Crabtree
"People who read tabloids deserve to be lied to."
--Jerry Seinfeld
Ed Rock
On 29 Apr 1997, Brian Tegart wrote:
> Matt Laswell (las...@wwa.com) wrote:
> : Brian Tegart (bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net) wrote:
>
> : : statement ('clearly evidence of the demonic') is a gross
> : : overstatement.
>
>
> All I'm saying is that would something that is "the clearest evidence
> of the demonic" be involved in spreading God's word?
Or the appearance of "speading God's word" anyway. What better cover?
Didn't I read about wolves in sheep's clothing?
> Yes, many things
> they sell are simply for profit, both the store's and the artist or
> manufacturer, but so much of what you can get in a Christian bookstore
> edifies and helps Christians. Would Satan be behind all this? I think
> of the verses Matthew 12:25-26:
So much helps and edifies Christians? Or makes them feel good and
"inspired?" I think there's a difference between spurring folks on to
doing what Jesus said to do and making them feel goospimples when they
read "Footprints;" or making them feel spiritually safe becuase their yoyo
says Jesus instead of Duncan; or making them feel secure that the CBS has
filtered out all the bad music and only sells stuff that's good for us.
Melody Kewl
Hello. :)
bri...@onyx-206.southwind.net (Brian Tegart) writes:
> All I'm saying is that would something that is "the clearest evidence
> of the demonic" be involved in spreading God's word? Yes, many things
> they sell are simply for profit, both the store's and the artist or
> manufacturer, but so much of what you can get in a Christian bookstore
> edifies and helps Christians. Would Satan be behind all this? I think
> of the verses Matthew 12:25-26:
[ The STEB practices preachin']
Brothers and sisters, I ask you to consider this. We talk of Satan
and Satanism and the Satanic like the goal of The Enemy is for
us to LOVE him. Like he wants to be befriended and understood
like some sort of panel member on the Jenny Jones show. I ask you
to consider that this is not the case. That this Satan, this Devil,
this Beelzebub - the horny li'l farmer in the red union suit, if you will -
is NOT trying to win some popularity contest. He is NOT trying to
convince us that we should love him more than we love God. He is
NOT trying to get us to sign our name in blood in some book some
night soon in our local forest. In fact, he's not that much interested
in selling himself.
Now you may ask, "But Preacher Kewl, you wonderful STEB, if
Satan doesn't want us to like him what does he want?". Well,
congregation, that is quite simple. He only wants to REPLACE as
much of God in your life as he can. And not even with himself.
Remember, we don't get heaven because we detest a devil. We
get heaven because we are delivered by God. A God we call to.
A God we pray to. A God we praise. A God we honor. A God we
seek to please. And you don't destroy the christian by replacing
God with the devil. You destroy the christian by just replacing
God.
And you know how it is easiest to replace God in the believer's
life? It isn't with a love of Satan. No, most people no matter
how wicked and unbelieving they are go for that. Is it with
money and possessions? No, not with money and possessions.
They may be an indication of a problem, but not necessarily
the easiest way to replace God. Huh! God. G-o-d. You hear that?
Pay attention. G-O-D. G!-O!!-D! Notice something? There isn't
an "I" in God. No "I" in God. That's important.
The EASIEST way to replace God in a christians life is to
replace it with the person himself! Repeat after me...
[practice over]
Melody
"maybe I'll practice more later"
Kewl
Ed Rock
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Bobthony wrote:
> >
> > Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
> > Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
> > *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
> > trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Oh, there's a concept...a business, trying to make money...UNHEARD OF!
That's a nice tangent to get away from what Will's saying.
> I'm going to open up my own store, and stock the shelves full of stuff
> nobody will buy. Yea, that's what I'll do...I'll make no money, in fact
> I'll lose money. So my goal for opening my store is to lose money...
>
> seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want. The
> sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
> selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
And that alone makes it right. There are many things for which there is a
market. It's trite but still stands true, having a market for crack
doesn't mean we should meet the demand.
Ed Rock
On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Linc Leifeste wrote:
> speaking from my year and a half as a salesperson in a salvation shop, i
> have to agree with you. there are some good things on the shelves, but
> much of it is only gathering dust...while much of the weak, feel good
> theology (or lack thereof) sells in large quantities.
At Family "Christian" Stores, the good stuff doesn't even gather dust. If
it doesn't sell within something like 90 days it goes back to the original
company. Things are bought such that they are only paid for if they're
sold, otherwise they're returned unbought. It's like a giant consignment
chain...
Jeroen J.-W. Tiggelman
stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>Bev <wedn...@huitzilo.tezcat.com> wrote:
>> she gave me water
>> she gave me her books to carry [beverley r. white - wednesday at tezcat.com]
>> but the dream was gone [web pages in mid-domainname-registration]
>> i'm back in my sanctuary
>Am I dreaming, or did Bev just quote the Swoon in her .sig?
You are dreaming...
*crash*
I mean, you were.. Then the dream was gone...
JJW
"Nothing to confess
But I've got scars deeper than your minds
Nothing to declare
But my love for all of mank i n d"
P.S. Ooooh, unlicensed spacing...
--Jeroen--------------------------------------------------
Tiggelman J.Tig...@pi.net (private)
caleb
> >seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want.
> The
> >sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
> >selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
>
>
> Will
I agree with you, Will. It's tragic because it's believers selling
deception to fellow believers, just to make a profit. There's nothing
wrong with business or making a profit, but to sell lies in Jesus' name
. . . somehow I see him responding with a whip in his hand.
caleb
Will McDonald
In <336631...@vt.edu> Bobthony <ach...@vt.edu> writes:
>
>>
>> Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
>> Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
>> *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
>> trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, there's a concept...a business, trying to make money...UNHEARD OF!
>nobody will buy. Yea, that's what I'll do...I'll make no money, in
fact
>I'll lose money. So my goal for opening my store is to lose money...
>
The
>sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
>selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
Exactly! That's what is so tragic.
Will
--
Linc Leifeste
> seriously...christian bookstores are just selling what people want. The
> sad fact is that people actully buy the stuff. The stores wouldn't be
> selling it, if there wasn't a market for it.
very true. but its a two way street. either owners of these stores know
better and are still selling the crap because all they care about is money
or the owners of the store actually believe in the crap they're selling.
either way, its a bad scene.
-linc
--
"Having loser friends is sorta comforting sometimes..."
-terry leifeste
Linc Leifeste
In article <5k58j8$o...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, wmc...@ix.netcom.com(Will
McDonald) wrote:
> Again, I just want to emphasize that I'm actually not saying that
> Christian bookstores are evidence for the demonic, but rather the
> *selection* of materials is evidence that the church is in serious
> trouble. (The stores only stock what sells...)
a roaring AMEN deafens the crowd.
> As for the devices of the demonic, the evil one and his minions seem
> happy to spread the gospel of legalism, the gospel of religiousity, the
> gospel of jingoism, etc... -- as long as believers avoid being salt and
> light.
the crowd breaks out into wild applause and a flurry of amen's fly will's way.
> In my experience (yes, it is limited to Christian bookstores in the
> South and Kenosha, Wisconsin), I would say that there are some good
> things there, but usually, they don't sell very well. Benny Hinn and
> Tim LaHaye seem to be the big sellers right now...
speaking from my year and a half as a salesperson in a salvation shop, i
have to agree with you. there are some good things on the shelves, but
much of it is only gathering dust...while much of the weak, feel good
theology (or lack thereof) sells in large quantities.
-linc
Jerry B. Ray
In article <melody_kewl-ya02318...@news.earthlink.net>,
Melody Kewl <melod...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> At least, as far as I've understood what Will is saying. Apologies if I
>> put words in his mouth...
>Just as long as you don't plan to suck them back out if you did.
>That would pretty much gross me out. ;)
OBMeatLoaf: "You took the words right out of my mouth. It must have
been when I was kissing you."
>"Can Jerry come out and play?"
Keep 'em separated.
Troy M. Miller
Dru <iam...@advertisnet.com> wrote:
> Troy M. Miller" <tmmi...@mtu.edu> wrote:
>
>
> > i just noticed dru was here, so i was wondering if i could get an
opinion
> > about this whole carman/carman ministries buying of the, uh, rather
> > outlandishly priced ranch that was mentioned here recently.
>
> the rest. ;) 2) Carman Ministries bought the property and Carman
> Licciardello pays them rent every month for the use of it. When they can
> get proper zoning (shouldn't be long) the Carman Ministries offices will
> be moved into the house *as well*. Now, I don't know about y'all... but
I
ok, i was wondering if it might be meant to use for some practical purpose.
but there is still the issue of *10 million dollars*. is that really
necessary for housing a business? i mean, my family has 32 spare acres up
in northwest wisconsin that i'm sure they'd let go for substantially
less...
> not the best situation. 3) (I know, I said "a couple..." sorry :) )
> Carman Ministries *lost* approximately $1 million on last year's tour.
> They should be able to make it up this year since he's doing parks and
> fairs, which he gets *paid* for. Needless to say though, this was quite
a
this... i really don't know how to respond to this, 'cuz to me, a million
bucks is an whole lot of money. i mean, i know of plenty of bands that
don't make anywhere *near* a million dollars in their whole career, let
alone *lose* that much in one year. if this is the case, isn't there
something wrong with the way things are being done? maybe he should tone
down a little bit - he seemed to do just fine before his "mega-stardom"
days...
> cause for concern. He actually at one point considered just selling
> *everything* and starting all over. Praise God, he didn't have to; it
actually, i don't think it would be a half-bad idea. i mean, comparing his
most recent concert that i saw on video and the "carman in concert" video i
have at home from some time ago, i *MUCH* more appreciated it when it was
him with a full band behind him, singing songs and yakking with the crowd.
watching all the fancy dances from the nose-bleed section doesn't do it for
me. and, imho, his earlier ministry was more effective.
but none of that really matters to the issue being discussed, i s'pose,
since it's just my opinion.
> would have been disastrous for his staff, just like for anyone losing
> their job. But the point is, yes, Carman has a nice home, nice clothes,
> drives a nice car... but he doesn't have a *love* for these material
> things. *That* is what the Bible says is a sin, the *love* of money...
or
> anything else more than God.
oh, i agree, and i'm not saying that these things are bad. but what i *do*
have a bit of a problem with is the fact that carman ministries is
"non-profit". i have absolutely no problem with, say, dc talk or mws going
out and buying a nice fancy car, an armani suit, or even an insanely
expensive "ranch". but if somebody is relying on the donations that other
people are contributing to a "ministry" to buy these things, then i raise
my eyebrows. my understanding, when i'm giving to the ministry of carman
or anybody else, is that main portion of my money is going to go towards
helping the needy and preaching the gospel. if someone wants a fancy car,
that's none of my business, but i'm not going to empty my pockets to help
him/her get it.
> Well, if you emptied your pockets (and I know Carman appreciated it) you
> were one of the few. Most people at the concert put in *zip*. Even the
then this has changed quite a bit. back when i was a frequenter of carman
concerts, though the size was a bit smaller, the people who attended did
what they could to support the ministry. granted, he didn't make a huge
profit from any concerts, but he always got what he needed, and even had
enough left to buy a big mac.
> no worries, the money you put in the bucket at the concert didn't go to
> buy this "ranch" as you call it; that came from his contract, which is
> money he earned by anyone's definition of the term.
i'm confused as to how they are separate. it just seems to me that there
is a lot of money going around, and it might be managed a bit better. even
if there are separate entities here, i would wonder about one hand
struggling to support a ministry while the other hand buys is working in
six figures.
do you see where i'm coming from?
> P.S. Listen to this song (Not 4 Sale); it'll give you a very clear
> perspective on Carman's attitude toward God, money, talent, and satan.
:)
sorry, don't have access to it. ever since a2j, i haven't been impressed
with his stuff. (and this is a *purely* _personal_ artistic preference,
having nothing to do with carman himself)
--
troy (a.k.a. "Thor")
tmmi...@mtu.edu
i wanna drink out of that fountain, on a hill
called double cure. i wanna show you my
allegiance Lord. i wanna be a Son of yours.
- vigilantes of love
Denise Smith
Another FORMER Carman fan checking in....
I loved some of Carman's early albums, but after "The Champion", I got
really sick of his attempts to be all things to all men. Maybe my
musical tastes took a radical shift toward alternative (which I haven't
heard coming from him yet... but then, I tuned out at the first sign of
rap)... maybe I just got sick of the hype. "All things to all men" may be
a great way of witnessing, but it's a sucky way to be a musician.
All I know is, whenever his mega-show blows into town, people at my
church look at me almost as a heretic when I mention I refuse to go to
his concerts.
Whatever.
-Denni
"We can laugh / we can cry / and never see the strong hand of love hidden
in the shadows" - Mark Heard
Jerry B. Ray
In article <01bc5517$05dfe7e0$0f02...@junk.mtu.mtu.edu>,
I'm pretty much the same way. _A2J_ was my last, as well, and in retrospect,
the only reason I really bought it was because of all the guest artists that
he brought in.
Jon Hagee
Jerry B. Ray wrote:
> That's EXACTLY the point that Will is making. He's not trying to say
> that the Christian Bookstores are some sort of Evil Plot Of Satan out
> to pump Christian consumers full of wonky theology and such. He's saying
> that the fact that "what sells" in Christian Bookstores is so full of
> wonky theology and such that it seems obvious that the Christian consumers
> who are demanding the stuff are pretty mixed-up.
There is truly a spectrum of "Christian" things that can be stocked in
stores. Just as in music. The bookstore owner can't know what's behind
every item or in every musician's heart. But, also, they need to push
quality products and have some practical threshhold for trash or
misleading items.
For instance, has anyone seen "A Road Less Traveled" in a Christian
Bookstore? (I have. And complained about it.) Have you actually read
the book? (It's a Buddhist philosophy/self help book if you've never
heard of it.)
Jon Hagee
Lexington, KY
Jerry B. Ray
In article <5k6csh$k...@newssvr02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
Denise Smith <GFZ...@prodigy.com> wrote:
>I loved some of Carman's early albums,
Yep, those first two albums, especially, were funny as heck. (Intentionally.)
>"All things to all men" may be
>a great way of witnessing, but it's a sucky way to be a musician.
.siggable. :-) Or, as I recently said in e-mail, "there's a fine line
between 'all things to all men' and 'poser'."
>All I know is, whenever his mega-show blows into town, people at my
>church look at me almost as a heretic when I mention I refuse to go to
>his concerts.
There's a guy at my church who, every time he sings a special, sings
a Carman song. Now, some of the more generic Carman songs I can stand,
but when he started into "America Again," I got up and walked out.
David Murray
Ed Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.ULT.3.95.970429...@ias.ga.unc.edu>...
> On Tue, 29 Apr 1997, Linc Leifeste wrote:
>
> > speaking from my year and a half as a salesperson in a salvation shop,
i
> > have to agree with you. there are some good things on the shelves, but
> > much of it is only gathering dust...while much of the weak, feel good
> > theology (or lack thereof) sells in large quantities.
That's true. A good commentary will gather much dust, but sermon outlines
sell like hot cakes to preachers who are too lazy to write their own
sermons.
> At Family "Christian" Stores, the good stuff doesn't even gather dust.
If
> it doesn't sell within something like 90 days it goes back to the
original
> company. Things are bought such that they are only paid for if they're
> sold, otherwise they're returned unbought.
Sometimes you get 90-day billing terms, but it's the exception rather than
the rule where music is concerned. (I'm not familiar with book, bible, or
gift terms.) 30-day and 60-day terms are more common. Usually 90-day terms
are restricted to major new releases in huge quantities, or release
programs that force you to stock a lot of things that won't sell. You still
pay for freight getting it in, freight shipping it back, and often a
considerable re-stocking fee. That's still a pretty big risk to take on
questionable titles.
On the other hand, consignment items are shipped in (or brought in) at no
cost, picked up at no cost, and the store only pays a percentage of what
they sold the items for. It'd be great if the major labels all decided to
go with consignment terms. I'd stock whatever they wanted me to.
To the folks who have a problem with the ministry angle of the CBS:
The "ministry" is that the store sells resources that equip ministers,
including bibles, books, and music. The "ministry" may be indirect, but it
is there. Obviously, not everything a store sells is used for ministry by
the purchaser, but many if not most items have the potential.
To the folks who have a problem with the "Christ" label of the CBS:
The label is actually "Christian," which may be the same thing. It is used
because most of the products we sell are purchased by people who call
themselves "Christians." Period. I don't see why this is so complicated.
We're not labelling the products so much as we're labelling the customers.
--
Dave Murray / db-m...@rfci.net
reply by removing the dash from the address above
visit my homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/1005
Making hay while the sun shines
David Murray
caleb <ca...@maui.net> wrote in article <336669...@maui.net>...
> I agree with you, Will. It's tragic because it's believers selling
> deception to fellow believers, just to make a profit. There's nothing
> wrong with business or making a profit, but to sell lies in Jesus' name
> . . . somehow I see him responding with a whip in his hand.
Deception? That's a pretty strong statement. Specify some products. Name
some items that are sending the customers to Hell.
Jerry B. Ray
In article <01bc5592$785d5520$997998cd@default>,
David Murray <dbmu...@bogus.spam.com> wrote:
>To the folks who have a problem with the "Christ" label of the CBS:
>The label is actually "Christian," which may be the same thing. It is used
>because most of the products we sell are purchased by people who call
>themselves "Christians." Period. I don't see why this is so complicated.
>We're not labelling the products so much as we're labelling the customers.
That's an interesting twist on the time-honored debate over the propriety
of labelling music, books, etc. with the adjective "Christian." It seems
to work pretty well, actually. Hmm...
Linc Leifeste
In article <01bc5593$d9cee660$997998cd@default>, "David Murray"
<dbmu...@bogus.spam.com> wrote:
> Deception? That's a pretty strong statement. Specify some products. Name
> some items that are sending the customers to Hell.
i don't think anyone has claimed that items have the power to send
customers to hell. but i personally feel that a lot of the faith movement
stuff is pretty much evil...such as hagin, copeland, hinn,etc.
David Murray
Jon Hagee <mclh...@pop.uky.edu> wrote in article
<336780...@pop.uky.edu>...
> There is truly a spectrum of "Christian" things that can be stocked in
> stores. Just as in music. The bookstore owner can't know what's behind
> every item or in every musician's heart. But, also, they need to push
> quality products and have some practical threshhold for trash or
> misleading items.
Exactly. We had a rash of customers demanding Betty Eadie's book, "Embraced
By The Light," about her death experience a couple of years ago. We refused
to stock it, or even special order it, because the store owner did not feel
it's teachings were consistent with Christianity. There were actually
Sunday School teachers in our community recommending the book to their
classes, and scores of customers were mad at us for not carrying it.
With one of Benny Hinn's books, we decided to special order it, but not
stock it. We sold about 50 copies by special order alone, and again
received numerous complaints for not having it on the shelves. Sometimes
it's difficult to know what the proper response should be. Benny Hinn is a
circus freak who is an embarrassment to fellow Christians, but Betty Eadie
is trying to push her New Age philosophy's. Our reactions varied, as a
result. Many would say we over reacted, and many would say we didn't do
enough. You can't please everybody.
And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
"Necronomicon," and another who wanted "The Holy Koran" . . . Yeah, right.
(These were not scholars or students wanting the texts for comparative
study purposes.)
Relating this to music, it seems to be less of a problem there. Most
complaints are about style rather than content. Gaither video fans don't
like to come in and see a Point Of Grace video playing, and vice versa..
I've never felt I had to refuse to order a particular music title my
customers wanted because of "trash or misleading" content. This is
probably because most lyrics are more open for interpretation. Books have
more words, and leave less to the imagination than songs. I don't yank
artists from my shelves when their sins become public, either. I still
carry Michael English and Sandi Patty products, and will do so as long as
my customers continue to buy them. I'll special order Jimmy Swaggart's
products if customers ask for them, but since they rarely do, I don't stock
anything by him.
As for pushing quality material, I try to do that through our instore
airplay music, and with the posters I choose to hang in the music
department. The same idea carries thru with posters and displays for books
and bibles.
Will McDonald
In <01bc5593$d9cee660$997998cd@default> "David Murray"
<dbmu...@bogus.spam.com> writes:
>
>caleb <ca...@maui.net> wrote in article <336669...@maui.net>...
>> I agree with you, Will. It's tragic because it's believers selling
>> deception to fellow believers, just to make a profit. There's
nothing
>> wrong with business or making a profit, but to sell lies in Jesus'
name
>> . . . somehow I see him responding with a whip in his hand.
>
Name
>some items that are sending the customers to Hell.
"Selling lies" or "deception" is not always the same thing as sending
someone to Hell. Certainly the two can be related, but it is not a
necessary correlation.
Deception *is* devestating to the cause of Christ though... Lies
completely undermine our credibility and damage the credibility of the
gospel.
There are plenty of examples:
-- anything Texe Marrs has written
-- almost anything to do with U.S. history (this includes both books
and CCM)
-- books on the morality and content of rock music
-- almost all of the popular titles in the prophecy section
-- anything talking about a "global conspiracy"
-- all of the recent books that show an alarming sympathy to the
militia movement
...not to mention all of the overtly political books that have more to
do with social agendas than anything else.
I'm sure others could add many more catagories than that... but those
were the things I saw during my visit to the a Family [Militia]
Bookstore last week that kind of inspired the "evidence for the
demonic" comment.
Will
--
"Truth must supersede orthdoxy and faith overtake fear"
Tulsa Band
Jon Hagee wrote:
>
> There is truly a spectrum of "Christian" things that can be stocked in
> stores. Just as in music. The bookstore owner can't know what's behind
> every item or in every musician's heart. But, also, they need to push
> quality products and have some practical threshhold for trash or
> misleading items.
>
> Bookstore? (I have. And complained about it.) Have you actually read
> the book? (It's a Buddhist philosophy/self help book if you've never
> heard of it.)
How about "Love You Forever" or some such title, a kids book about
a mom who loves her little baby obsessively, and even sneaks into
his house at night to hold this 40 year old man on her lap and coo
at him. She finally dies, so he starts in on his daughter...
It's really sick. And I don't just mean in a Testamints kinda way,
either. I mean that plus _sicko_. And it's heavily stocked in CBS's
everywhere. Throw up on your copy today!
--Dallas "Let's Have Some BOUNDARIES People!" Koehn; tul...@ionet.net
Tulsa Band
Posted. Emailed. Printed out to take home for the wife to read.
Mel, whoever you are, you just made up for all that BS with Ed
last month.
EXCELLENT Post. Dead on. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect.
--Dallas "Damned Right I Quoted The Whole Thing. I'll Do It Again
If I Have To" Koehn; tul...@ionet.net
[The expected gag in spite of my seriousness: Ed responds 'Thanks!']
Don A. Smith
>And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
>"Necronomicon,"
??? You mean the non-existant book referred to in the fiction of
H.P. Lovecraft??? Odd. Did they try to order the Red Book of
Westmarch, too? (That's a non-existant book referred to in
Lord of the Rings, for those who don't get the reference.)
Were they ignorant, or just pulling your leg?
And you can get the Koran at any "secular" bookstore, why bother
the explicitly Christian ones???
I think something happens to people's brains in bookstores.
I know mine goes all woozy, I lose about 90% of my will-power,
and I forget completely what it was I went in there looking for.
Then I wonder how I managed to spend $80...
But reactions seem to vary...
:-)
See ya,
Don
Brian Tegart
Tulsa Band (Tul...@ionet.net) wrote:
: Ed Rock wrote:
: >
: > I think there's a difference between spurring folks on to
: > doing what Jesus said to do and making them feel goospimples
: > when they read "Footprints;"
: You can dis 'Footprints', but don't mess with my 'Serenity Prayer'...
How about the "Senility Prayer"?
'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And serenity to accept the things I can't'
Brian
bri...@southwind.net
Ed Rock
> > If it doesn't sell within something like 90 days it goes back to the
> > original company. Things are bought such that they are only paid for
> > if they're sold, otherwise they're returned unbought.
>
> Sometimes you get 90-day billing terms, but it's the exception rather than
> the rule where music is concerned. (I'm not familiar with book, bible, or
> gift terms.) 30-day and 60-day terms are more common. Usually 90-day terms
> are restricted to major new releases in huge quantities, or release
> programs that force you to stock a lot of things that won't sell. You still
> pay for freight getting it in, freight shipping it back, and often a
> considerable re-stocking fee. That's still a pretty big risk to take on
> questionable titles.
While what you describe here may be true for the typical Mom&Pop Christian
Bookstore, the fact remains that FCS does indeed get 90 day billing and
does indeed return stock that doesn't sell. The exception to this is
stuff they order from a distributor like Spring Arbor or Riverside. I did
my time at FCS, back a couple of years ago when they were still FBS and
participated in the grand ole time we called "Returns." FBS/FCS manages
to maintain this position by being one of the biggest if not the biggest
player in the game.
> On the other hand, consignment items are shipped in (or brought in) at no
> cost, picked up at no cost, and the store only pays a percentage of what
> they sold the items for. It'd be great if the major labels all decided to
> go with consignment terms. I'd stock whatever they wanted me to.
I said it was like consignment. Pardon the technical inaccuracies.
Linc Leifeste
In article <336765...@ionet.net>, Tul...@ionet.net wrote:
> How about "Love You Forever" or some such title, a kids book about
> a mom who loves her little baby obsessively, and even sneaks into
> his house at night to hold this 40 year old man on her lap and coo
> at him. She finally dies, so he starts in on his daughter...
>
> It's really sick. And I don't just mean in a Testamints kinda way,
> either. I mean that plus _sicko_. And it's heavily stocked in CBS's
> everywhere. Throw up on your copy today!
salvation shops, my manager gave that book to me to read and told me it
was one of his favorites. in fact, he told me it had made him break down
in tears. needless to say, that whole job was quite disturbing. i can't
believe that i stayed there for a year and a half. i think those places
have the power to suck you in. i have a friend who works in one and has
for quite a while despite his disgust with the whole scene. probably the
only reason i left when i did was because the staff was let go due to
financial difficulties. of course, i was screwed over in that deal by the
owner...but that is another story. someday, i'm going to write a book.
MAD KITTY @ WORK!
On 25 Apr 1997 12:52:07 -0500, wedn...@huitzilo.tezcat.com (Bev)
wrote:
>
>In article <5jqiao$5...@news.hic.net>, xponent <xpo...@hic.net> wrote:
>>I wonder how he feels about working for Kushner-Locke, the company that
>>sponsored and owns the Keep the Faith ads. The same that purchased the
>>Heavens gate movie rights..and also produces Erotic Confessions for HBO as
>>well as porn for national and international sales.
>
>Now hold on -- we can't lump all porn together. Are we talking the nice,
>fluffy hotel-room soft stuff, or are we talking the "actresses with the
>glazed looks in their eyes who clearly aren't getting anything out of
>the experience except a little cocaine to get through the day, if indeed
>they even agreed to THAT much" porn?
nothing personal, but i'd definitely have to disagree there. it's all
the same. IMO, anyhow. you can argue that one is more "artful" or
whatever than the other, or that one is more exploitive than the
other, but in the end we all make our own decisions about what we do.
you can argue that some strung-out porn "actress" is being exploited,
but ultimately she's allowing herself to be used that way. and in the
end all porn is sinful. there's no such thing as "innocent"
pornography.
jeff
------
jeff parks
madk...@ix.netcom.com
Tulsa Band
Ed Rock wrote:
>
> I think there's a difference between spurring folks on to
> doing what Jesus said to do and making them feel goospimples
> when they read "Footprints;"
You can dis 'Footprints', but don't mess with my 'Serenity Prayer'...
> or making them feel spiritually safe becuase their yoyo
> says Jesus instead of Duncan
I used to have a Jesus yo-yo, but I felt so guilty making it do
tricks just so I'd look cool...
--Dallas Koehn, who never mastered 'Walking the dog on water'...
Tulsa Band
Ed Rock wrote:
> CBSes seem to anesthetize the church and make it feel good rather
> than spurring it on to doing the things Jesus said for us to do.
> This is certainly not to say that a CBS' job is to spur us on, but
> it's certainly not to immobilize us. Sure, there are a few important
> tools sold at CBSes, but the vast majority of the items that make it
> possible for them to stay open are detrimental at best and more
> probably dangerous.
I think someone posted recently about televised 'evangelism' and which
sorts of shows will receive financial support and which ones won't,
and how that leads to the current typical televangelist...
Anyway, it sounds like a similar trend, if someone better-spoken
than I would like to elaborate.
--Dallas Koehn, who only goes there for Veggie Tales T-shirts...
Matt Laswell
David Murray (dbmu...@bogus.spam.com) wrote:
: caleb <ca...@maui.net> wrote in article <336669...@maui.net>...
: > I agree with you, Will. It's tragic because it's believers selling
: > deception to fellow believers, just to make a profit. There's nothing
: > wrong with business or making a profit, but to sell lies in Jesus' name
: > . . . somehow I see him responding with a whip in his hand.
: Deception? That's a pretty strong statement. Specify some products. Name
: some items that are sending the customers to Hell.
Yeah, it is a pretty strong statement. And, even though I think there's
an element of truth to it, it seems as though it's harsher on the CBS
owners than it should be, simply because the implication is that they
are doing so knowingly. I don't think that's the case. The way I'd
describe it is that they, like their patronage, look at things from a
basically worldly point of view. Statements like "we stock it because
that's what people buy" strike me as indicative of that. That's the
same excuse "the liberal media" gives for televised sex and violence,
isn't it?
As for products that send customers to Hell, ummm... who said anything
about Hell? I don't know that that's the case. What I would argue
is essentially the point that Ed's already made - that there's a lot
there that makes the church comfortable, rather than spurring it on
to actually live like Jesus did. I find the "prophecy" section of my
local Family Christian Store (which should probably be renamed the
"Jesus will return within a decade and probably much sooner" section)
to be a particularly good example, especially as it stands across from
the essentially empty "prayer" section (which is mostly filled with
blank books to be used as prayer journals, all frilly and fancy so
the store can charge $17.95 for something that is no more useful than a
$0.99 spiral bound). All the Jesus junk (e.g. Testamints, the "annointing
oils" that Ed's talked about in the past, etc.) are more good examples.
- matt "You cannot serve both God and Mammon" laswell
David Murray
Don A. Smith <das...@space.mit.edu> wrote in article
<5k8d4d$6...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>...
>
>
> >And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
> >"Necronomicon,"
>
> ??? You mean the non-existant book referred to in the fiction of
> H.P. Lovecraft??? Odd. Did they try to order the Red Book of
> Westmarch, too? (That's a non-existant book referred to in
> Lord of the Rings, for those who don't get the reference.)
> Were they ignorant, or just pulling your leg?
If I'm not mistaken, there is an actual book called "Necronomicon"
available through Ingram Distributors. If memory serves me correctly, we
consulted the computer, and it was there. I'll have to check again to be
sure.
We get all kinds.
1. There was a customer just last week who said he'd have spent more money
if we'd had any Jewish stuff.
2. A lady once came in asking for "tangerines." After much discussion, the
clerk finally asked her, "What do you do with them" (thinking to herself,
"I'm going to die if she says, 'You eat them.') The customer said, "You
plays 'em on your hip in church." The clerk finally realized she was
wanting "tamborines."
There's more . . .
SamHag
In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.970429...@ias.ga.unc.edu>, Ed
Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
>Sure, there are a few important tools sold at
>CBSes, but the vast majority of the items that make it possible for them
>to stay open are detrimental at best and more probably dangerous.
Excuse me for not agreeing with you o sultan of the newsgroup, but this
statement is absolutely silly.
Let it be known that I make my living, send my kids to college, etc via
managing a Christian Bookstore so I am biased. From my experience, most
of the Christians who visit CBS's are pro-active Christians. I may not
agree with their theology, but they seem to be the ones who actively
pursuring a closer relationship with the Lord. They come into the store
earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
looking for products to encourage others in their walk with the Lord.
Often they are the ones at concerts and other events, not the pew potatoes
or the holier than thou reactive Christians who have nothing better to do
but complain about everything they don't like.
The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those who
are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
conservative or liberal.
Our biggest complaints - We carry all styles of music and is that stuff
Christian, the fact that we carry any other than the King James bible and
we carry Catholic items. We have people who call us up and ask if we
carry "Christian Heavy Metal", when we say yes they lay into us and tell
us they won't be coming into our store because of it. Our answer - have a
good life, we don't miss you.
The complaints in rmc about Christian Bookstores don't seem to be that
much different, just coming from a Christian liberal elitist viewpoint,
"You carry Yo-Yo's with Jesus printed on the side, you have pictures with
Bible verses on, etc". I don't always agree with everything we carry, but
I do get to see the excitement of young kids and adults who want these
things. Who am I to question their enthusiam. Some of the things you
people complain about are used by Sunday School teachers who are looking
for inexpensive gifts to give their students as incentives for learning
their versus or just a thank you for being my students, parents on very
fixed incomes where spending under $1 is all they can afford at the time
and the like.
I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see the
positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do. When you do nothing
you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
others to pick apart what you do. What I don't understand is why someone
finds the stuff in a Christian bookstore objectionable yet they don't find
most of the general market music and it's message objectionalbe. I'm
sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
with all Humility intended,
Sam Hagedorn
the secret of love is walking in God's covenant power (thank you Paul Clark)
music buyer at SomethingMore. Improved web site and
complete store coming soon.
Linc Leifeste
In article <19970501053...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, sam...@aol.com
(SamHag) wrote:
> Let it be known that I make my living, send my kids to college, etc via
> managing a Christian Bookstore so I am biased. From my experience, most
> of the Christians who visit CBS's are pro-active Christians. I may not
> agree with their theology, but they seem to be the ones who actively
> pursuring a closer relationship with the Lord. They come into the store
> earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
> looking for products to encourage others in their walk with the Lord.
> Often they are the ones at concerts and other events, not the pew potatoes
> or the holier than thou reactive Christians who have nothing better to do
> but complain about everything they don't like.
that sounds about right. they're usually the christians who come into the
local salvation shop every time they have a problem they can't solve, a
doubt they can't get rid of, a question they can't answer, and they look
for a book to give them the quick fix. or they look for christian music to
give them an emotional lift so they can feel closer to god. they expect
christian music and books to keep them close to god. if people would spend
more time in prayer, bible study, and contact with other christians
instead of reading books on how to feel good about themselves or how to be
good husbands or how to be good wives or how to pray themselves a fortune
or how to win over their buddhist neighbors or the problems with rock and
roll or how to start a local militia for jesus they would probably be a
lot better off and all of these stores would go out of business.
> The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those who
> are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
> conservative or liberal.
or people who have a problem with selling jesus. or people who have a
problem with reducing everything to a t-shirtable message. or people who
have a problem with people getting rich on bad theology. or people who
have a problem with jesus junk (such as jesus yo-yo's made in china). etc.
> The complaints in rmc about Christian Bookstores don't seem to be that
> much different, just coming from a Christian liberal elitist viewpoint,
> "You carry Yo-Yo's with Jesus printed on the side, you have pictures with
> Bible verses on, etc". I don't always agree with everything we carry, but
> I do get to see the excitement of young kids and adults who want these
> things. Who am I to question their enthusiam.
you're a human being. you're a christian. who are you not to question
their enthusiasm. question everything.
> I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see the
> positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do. When you do nothing
> you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
> others to pick apart what you do. What I don't understand is why someone
> finds the stuff in a Christian bookstore objectionable yet they don't find
> most of the general market music and it's message objectionalbe. I'm
> sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
because the general market isn't selling jesus and making money in the
name of ministry. they're not corrupting and damaging christians from the
inside. i do happen to find some of the general market music and its
message objectionable. but i don't hold non-christians to christian
standards.
Mark Aylor
"David Murray" <dbmu...@bogus.spam.com> wrote:
>Don A. Smith <das...@space.mit.edu> wrote in article
><5k8d4d$6...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>...
>>
>>
>> >And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
>> >"Necronomicon,"
>>
>> ??? You mean the non-existant book referred to in the fiction of
>> H.P. Lovecraft??? Odd. Did they try to order the Red Book of
>> Westmarch, too? (That's a non-existant book referred to in
>> Lord of the Rings, for those who don't get the reference.)
>> Were they ignorant, or just pulling your leg?
>
>If I'm not mistaken, there is an actual book called "Necronomicon"
>available through Ingram Distributors. If memory serves me correctly, we
>consulted the computer, and it was there. I'll have to check again to be
>sure.
I can't believe I'm posting on this, but it's one of the little pieces of
trivia that I know. Especially since this is so off topic.
There are actually two "published" Necronomicons. The first one was some
guys idea to cash in on the fame of this name from H. P. Lovecraft. He
basically put together a bunch of fragments of Lovecraft's writings, a
lot more of his own and published the book to make a buck. That's all.
There is suposed to be another one, that has nothing to do with
Lovecraft's writings other than the name. I have not seen this one at
all, and can't tell you any more about it.
I used to read a lot of Lovecraft. I got better...
Mark
M...@VAX3.ltec.com
Cheef Dan
David Murray (dbmu...@bogus.spam.com) wrote:
: And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
: "Necronomicon," and another who wanted "The Holy Koran" . . . Yeah, right.
: (These were not scholars or students wanting the texts for comparative
: study purposes.)
Hmmmm... and this was a problem? Interesting.
Before I moved I used to special order all my cyberpunk novels through a
local Christian bookstore because they gave discounts to divinity
students.
--
Wit is a form of arousal. We challenge one another to be funnier and
smarter. It's high-energy play. It's the way friends make love to one
another.
-- Annie Gottlieb
Ed Rock
On 30 Apr 1997, Don A. Smith wrote:
> >And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
> >"Necronomicon,"
>
> ??? You mean the non-existant book referred to in the fiction of
> H.P. Lovecraft??? Odd.
It MAY have been non-existant when Lovecraft wrote of it, but I have seen
a book by that title--my brother's old roommate had it.
Will McDonald
In <19970501053...@ladder01.news.aol.com> sam...@aol.com
(SamHag) writes:
>
>In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.970429...@ias.ga.unc.edu>,
Ed
>Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
>
>>Sure, there are a few important tools sold at
>>CBSes, but the vast majority of the items that make it possible for
them
>>to stay open are detrimental at best and more probably dangerous.
>
>Excuse me for not agreeing with you o sultan of the newsgroup, but
this
>statement is absolutely silly.
>
via
>managing a Christian Bookstore so I am biased. From my experience,
most
>of the Christians who visit CBS's are pro-active Christians. I may
not
>agree with their theology, but they seem to be the ones who actively
>pursuring a closer relationship with the Lord. They come into the
store
>earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
>looking for products to encourage others in their walk with the Lord.
So far so good... But *what* are they getting at the Christian
bookstores?
>Often they are the ones at concerts and other events, not the pew
potatoes
>or the holier than thou reactive Christians who have nothing better to
do
>but complain about everything they don't like.
It is possible (even probably) that "pro-active" Christians would be
the most concerned about what the average Christian bookstore
sells... Just because one complains about a problem doesn't mean
that they should be characterized as a "holier than thou reactive
Christian." (This statement seems to be directed at Mr. "Rock" and
some of the other persons who have contributed to this thread...
I'd be careful about making generalizations like that.)
>
>The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those
who
>are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
>conservative or liberal.
I'm sure that the majority of the complaints that you hear are from
these folks...
I must confess that my conscience wouldn't allow me to operate a
CBS. (NOTE: This is not a condemnation of CBS owners or employees!)
My conscience is very sensitive to "rightness" and I couldn't bear
to sell anything that I strongly disagreed with. (I'm a strong
advocate of freedom of inquiry, but I couldn't sell "problem" books
or music without giving "the other side.") For *me* to work in a
CBS would be a sin. (see Romans 14)
>
>Our biggest complaints - We carry all styles of music and is that
stuff
>Christian, the fact that we carry any other than the King James bible
and
>we carry Catholic items. We have people who call us up and ask if we
>carry "Christian Heavy Metal", when we say yes they lay into us and
tell
>us they won't be coming into our store because of it. Our answer -
have a
>good life, we don't miss you.
Kind of the attitude that I've developed toward folks who pop into
r.m.c. for about five minutes, condemn everyone, and leave without
taking to time to figure out what is going on... :-) Like the
poor, they are always going to be with us.
>
>The complaints in rmc about Christian Bookstores don't seem to be that
>much different, just coming from a Christian liberal elitist
viewpoint,
A "Christian liberal elitist?" Wow... You've put everyone in their
place. :-( Now that you've stuck a label on us, please try dealing
with the issues. (I don't think the label fits everyone that well -
- except maybe "Christian.")
>"You carry Yo-Yo's with Jesus printed on the side, you have pictures
with
>Bible verses on, etc". I don't always agree with everything we carry,
but
>I do get to see the excitement of young kids and adults who want these
>things. Who am I to question their enthusiam.
The goal of Christian discipleship is not enthusiasm. People can
get enthusiastic about all sort of bad or destructive things... It
doesn't change the fact that some things are destructive and
undermine the gospel effort.
>Some of the things you
>people complain about are used by Sunday School teachers who are
looking
>for inexpensive gifts to give their students as incentives for
learning
>their versus or just a thank you for being my students,
Very good! We've got a valid point here. Some of the trinkets are
equivalent to the old "spelling medals" that they gave out long
before even Mr. Rock went to school... Now I feel a little bit
better about some of that stuff.
Of course, this doesn't deal with the main issue of "taking the name
of the LORD in vain" (or sometimes translated) "you shall not use
the name of the LORD for a useless purpose." I think that a lot of
the "Jesus trinkets" violate this commandment. (You know, that
doesn't sound like a "liberal" perspective at all!)
>parents on very
>fixed incomes where spending under $1 is all they can afford at the
time
>and the like.
But why not sell them something worthwhile instead? If it is a yo-
yo, why not give them a regular yo-yo instead of a "Christianized"
one? (The children will certainly remember where they got it.) Why
is there a compulsion to "sanctify" the things that are already
"clean?"
>
>I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see
the
>positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do.
There are positives:
1.) they provide books and music which would be more difficult to
find in mainstream stores (Of course, one could make the argument
that mainstream stores would carry the merchandise if more
Christians shopped there instead.)
2.) they could provide some guidance on the quality of the
merchandise that would benefit the customer and also spur the
Christian community to excellence by bulk ordering and promoting
only the best stuff (This is very rarely done... I've never
experienced it, but I'm sure that someone does it.) Frankly, I
doubt you could maintain a viable business given the spiritual state
of the American consumer religion.
What else do they do?
>When you do nothing
>you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
>others to pick apart what you do.
True. Of course, the Christian bookstores that I'm familiar with
don't do anything but push what sells. That's hardly being "active"
in my book. (Of course, by insinuation, you have labeled all of the
critics as "inactive.")
>What I don't understand is why someone
>finds the stuff in a Christian bookstore objectionable yet they don't
find
>most of the general market music and it's message objectionalbe.
The reason that you don't understand is that you have made an
assumption. I am a careful and thoughtful listener. I make careful
choices in music. Unfortunately, the CBS culture doesn't encourage
the same sort of discernment. Having the name "Christian" over the
door seems to give blanket affirmation of all that is sold in the
store is consistent with the major precepts of Christian doctrine.
>I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
I'm easier on "the world" because the world hasn't made the truth
claims that Jesus did. Jesus claims to be "the way, the truth, and
the life" which forces us to hold His truth and His church to a much
higher standard. Trivialization of the truth and life of Christ
certainly turns my stomach. Furthermore, shouldn't people of Christ
devote themselves to truth and sound doctrine? I have yet to see a
text regarding American history in a CBS that fairly quotes founding
documents or Supreme Court decisions. Many books in Christian
bookstores care little about doctrine or the call of Jesus to works
of compassion. Instead they promote the latest anti-government,
"New World Order" paranoia or devote themselves to the latest
"Christian Right" socio-political positions.
Of course, this latest discussion started when I wrote that the
inventory of Christian bookstores give ample evidence that the evil
one has been working overtime within American Christendom. The
inventory of Christian bookstore is pretty much a reflection of the
problem. However, the main agent of change cannot be the Christian
bookstores. They are bound by the free-market system. When the
people in the churches change, the Christian bookstores will have to
change as well.
Grace and peace,
Will McDonald
In <Pine.ULT.3.95.97050...@ias.ga.unc.edu> Ed Rock
<ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
>
>On 30 Apr 1997, Don A. Smith wrote:
>
>> >And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
>> >"Necronomicon,"
>>
>> ??? You mean the non-existant book referred to in the fiction of
>> H.P. Lovecraft??? Odd.
>
>It MAY have been non-existant when Lovecraft wrote of it, but I have
seen
>a book by that title--my brother's old roommate had it.
I have a copy on my shelf...
Matt Laswell
Will McDonald (wmc...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: In <19970501053...@ladder01.news.aol.com> sam...@aol.com
: (SamHag) writes:
: >I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see
: the
: >positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do.
: There are positives:
: 1.) they provide books and music which would be more difficult to
: find in mainstream stores (Of course, one could make the argument
: that mainstream stores would carry the merchandise if more
: Christians shopped there instead.)
Perhaps.
On the other hand, I've found many cases in which the local Borders
or Barnes & Noble carried the christian books I wanted, while the
local Family Christian Store did not. For example, the C.S. Lewis
selection. I dare say that *most* (and perhaps all) of the really
good stuff I've read, the stuff that challenged me intellectually as
well as spiritually, the stuff that actually made a difference in
my worldview and behavior, I've purchased at the secular stores,
'cause the Christian ones weren't carrying them. Here are a few
examples:
_Orthodoxy, the Romance of Faith_ - G.K. Chesterton
_The God Who Is There_ - Francis Schaeffer
_Selling Satan: The Evangelical Media and the Mike Warnke Scandal_ -
Mike Hertenstein and Jon Trott
_A Grief Observed_ - C.S. Lewis
_The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind_ - Mark Noll
_Disappointment With God_ - Phillip Yancey*
* I'm guessing this was just temporarily out of stock - I've seen it in
some CBSs.
Good luck finding something by, say, Buechner at most CBSs.
Admittedly, there is more variance in the stuff you'll find at the big
chains - they mix in some new agey stuff, as well as the occasional
Texe Marrs. On the other hand, I find that stuff like Ralph Reed's book
gets filed under politics, where it belongs.
: 2.) they could provide some guidance on the quality of the
: merchandise that would benefit the customer and also spur the
: Christian community to excellence by bulk ordering and promoting
: only the best stuff (This is very rarely done... I've never
: experienced it, but I'm sure that someone does it.) Frankly, I
: doubt you could maintain a viable business given the spiritual state
: of the American consumer religion.
Actually, my church has its own CBS that does a decent job of this.
Yes, they stock some of the more simplistic stuff (like a "Mediations
for Golfers" book - GUH! and a few "Christian weight loss" books),
but that's in the minority. I've never seen health and wealth theology
there, nor anything by Kenneth Copeland, nor any of these bothersome
"what it's going to be like after the rapture" books that seem quite
popular lately (and what is the point of those, anyway? From where I
sit, they look way too much like meaningless triumphalism).
What am I getting at? When I visit my local Family Book Store, I almost
always leave angry. When I visit my church's book store, I leave
wishing I had more time and money to spend on books.
: >When you do nothing
: >you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
: >others to pick apart what you do.
: True. Of course, the Christian bookstores that I'm familiar with
: don't do anything but push what sells. That's hardly being "active"
: in my book. (Of course, by insinuation, you have labeled all of the
: critics as "inactive.")
Yeah, that tone did seem to fill Sam's posting. For what it's worth,
though, I'm guessing he has a very different perspective on the whole
thing, since he runs one of the places. I'm sure, from his previous
postings here, that he's a good guy and committed to his faith. Moreso,
I'm guessing that the people he deals with who own similar stores are
good guys and committed to their faith. Furthermore, I'm guessing from
what I've heard from Shari and Linda that Something More is *not* your
typical CBS (you don't stock Testamints, do you Sam?). From his
perspective, I can see how he might take some of this discussion more
personally than it might have been intended.
That said, my problem with the whole scene (and I'm going to speak in
gross generalizations here that may or may not apply at all to Sam's
particular situation) is that here we have a lot of people who are
trying to serve God, who want their stores to be a ministry (and, perhaps,
some who simply see a profit opportunity among easily fooled Christians).
At the same time, though, they've apparently never taken time to look
at all their assumptions going in or to think seriously about the
culture they're in. As a result, they buy into the prevailing mentality
by default. So, it appears, they operate under the same assumption as
the general public - that stuff put out by "christian" publishing houses
and record companies has been in some way sanitized for your protection
or something.
Of course, I'm saying all of this as someone on the outside looking in.
The above seems to be a useful working hypothesis, at the least - it
appears to explain what I observe.
- matt
Ed Rock
On 1 May 1997, SamHag wrote:
> In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.970429...@ias.ga.unc.edu>, Ed
> Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
>
> >Sure, there are a few important tools sold at
> >CBSes, but the vast majority of the items that make it possible for them
> >to stay open are detrimental at best and more probably dangerous.
>
> Excuse me for not agreeing with you o sultan of the newsgroup, but this
> statement is absolutely silly.
I'm sorry. As you can probably tell, I disagree. Numerous times, I have
explained in what ways I feel the statement is true. To capsulate, having
Christian stuff can tend to innoculate people with just enough Jesus that
they are immune to further conviction.
> Let it be known that I make my living, send my kids to college, etc via
> managing a Christian Bookstore so I am biased.
Yes, you ARE biased. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but it does mean
your data is not impartial.
> From my experience, most
> of the Christians who visit CBS's are pro-active Christians. I may not
> agree with their theology, but they seem to be the ones who actively
> pursuring a closer relationship with the Lord.
Talk about unrealistic proclamations about whole segments of the
population. What it appears you are saying is that people who do not shop
at "Christian" bookstores are NOT Pro-active Christians and are NOT
actively pursuing a closer relationship with the Lord. That's totally
bogus. Before there were Christian bookstores, were there no pro-active
Christians persuing a closer relationship with the Lord. This is one of
the myths if not propagated certainly not talked down by the CBA, GMA, and
the Christian industry in general. It's good for business if we let
people think they have to shop at CBSes if they are pro-active, God
seeking believers--otherwise they would be showing signs of, to paraphrase
Carman, a dead, drey faith.
> They come into the store
> earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
> looking for products to encourage others in their walk with the Lord.
> Often they are the ones at concerts and other events, not the pew potatoes
> or the holier than thou reactive Christians who have nothing better to do
> but complain about everything they don't like.
Would you be referring to those who, maybe even because of deeply held
convictions that simply run contrary to your own, chose not to shop at
Christian bookstores? Or maybe those who've spent a large part of their
lives shopping at Christian bookstores only to find only the westerninzed
version of Christianity represented and have been forced to look elsewhere
for some of the quality items they seek: books by Mark Noll, Frederich
Beuchner, Flannery O'Conner, Madeline L'Engle, Franky Schaeffer, and even
more than a couple of titles by C.S. Lewis or George MacDonald; music by
VOL, Bruce Cockburn, the Call, Pierce Pettis, Sam Phillips, etc? Or maybe
those put off by the Jesus yoyos, Testamints, incredible commercialization
of Bibles such that you can now get a WASP-Male-NIV version of the week,
etc.?
> The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those who
> are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
> conservative or liberal.
My gripes have very little to do with succombing to or even catering to
my beliefs. My problem is with the dishonesty involved in making or at
the very least allowing and taking advantage of the notion that there was
some sort of divine decree that believers should buy things with Christian
labels from stores with Christian labels; and that if they don't then they
are not pro-active Christians and are not actively seeking after God.
> Our biggest complaints - We carry all styles of music and is that stuff
> Christian, the fact that we carry any other than the King James bible and
> we carry Catholic items. We have people who call us up and ask if we
> carry "Christian Heavy Metal", when we say yes they lay into us and tell
> us they won't be coming into our store because of it. Our answer - have a
> good life, we don't miss you.
>
> The complaints in rmc about Christian Bookstores don't seem to be that
> much different, just coming from a Christian liberal elitist viewpoint,
You know, your email to me told me this wasn't anything personal, yet you
appear to be personally calling people on rmc who disagree with you
liberal elitists. That's a pretty broad brush you're stroking with--I
don't think many, if any, of the people who aren't buying the myth of
"Real Christians Shop at Christian Stores" are necessarily liberal. Some
I know are pretty darn conservative, but liberal is an easy rallying
point.. Personally, politically, I am more liberal now than I was back in
my march in Washington, boycott, and sign petitions for everything Pat
Robertson or Jerry Falwell says days, but I'm really not that much of a
liberal. The idea folks usually wish to cash in on when they use that
label is a bunch of people who have decided to re-write God's word to suit
their own pet sins. Sorry, it was a whole lot more comfortable for me to
sit back and let Robertson and Falwell think for me. Oddly Rush Limbaugh
is somewhat responsible for some of my current train of thought. For some
reason he got me to consider what I believe and why. I decided to check
out what Jesus said and what the Bible said for myself. Doing that has
caused upheaval in my life, and if it's caused me to be liberal, it's
certainly not because I wanted justification and comfort for sin.
> "You carry Yo-Yo's with Jesus printed on the side, you have pictures with
> Bible verses on, etc". I don't always agree with everything we carry, but
> I do get to see the excitement of young kids and adults who want these
> things. Who am I to question their enthusiam.
I was a Christian bookstore junkie. Have you ever seen other junkies when
they get close to the things they are addicted to? It's similar. Sure, a
trip to the CBS isn't going to be visibly and immediately as detrimental
to a CBS junkie as crack is to a crack junkie, but in the long run, it IS
detrimental and can be rather dangerous. For me that stuff became a
pacifier, something that made me a "proactive God seeking" Christian even
if I was still sitting on the couch instead of doing the will of God.
> Some of the things you people
THWAP!!!!!!
> complain about are used by Sunday School teachers who are looking
> for inexpensive gifts to give their students as incentives for learning
> their versus or just a thank you for being my students, parents on very
> fixed incomes where spending under $1 is all they can afford at the time
> and the like.
You know I understand this aurgument, which I've heard forever. Gotta
admit, it even pulls on my heartstrings and everything, but I also gotta
wonder however did people before the 20th century spiritually survive
without them.
> I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see the
> positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do. When you do nothing
> you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
> others to pick apart what you do. What I don't understand is why someone
> finds the stuff in a Christian bookstore objectionable yet they don't find
> most of the general market music and it's message objectionalbe. I'm
> sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
I find it pretty easy to understand. The general market doesn't use
Jesus' Name as a selling point.
Jeff Elbel
regarding the puller query...
i don't have the t&n sampler you referred to. the song in
question was "last one out," right?
i guess my answer would have to be... if you don't like
this song, the album probably isn't for you. i don't think
it's the best song on the album (or even second or third),
but it's fairly representative of the style.
if you get a chance to hear a demo, listen all the way
through "Shut Off." then check out "6x6" and "Number One
Fan." those were the ones i liked best.
grace,
jeff
| -please reply to:- | PO Box 1222 | Jeff Elbel |
| Sunny...@aol.com | El Segundo, CA | Marathon Records |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| 90245-6222 USA | h (310) 355-0533 |
----------- http://www.netads.com/music/marathon ------------
coming soon: Farewell to Juliet - "Grace & Dire Circumstances"
Sunny Day Roses - "Silver" CD Ep
Barry Brindisi
> There are plenty of examples:
>
> -- anything Texe Marrs has written
>
> -- almost anything to do with U.S. history (this includes both books
> and CCM)
>
Marrs? What's up about the bit on US history?
>
> -- almost all of the popular titles in the prophecy section
>
givt, but I've never actually brought them. Since many of them contains opinions of what the
author think will occur, I don't put too much stock in them. I generally end up cross
referencing it to what is in the Scripture and history books and what is going on in the news.
> -- anything talking about a "global conspiracy"
>
> -- all of the recent books that show an alarming sympathy to the
> militia movement
>
Sincerely,
Barry Brindisi
pha...@amug.org
Dru
In article <01bc5517$05dfe7e0$0f02...@junk.mtu.mtu.edu>, "Troy M. Miller"
<tmmi...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> ok, i was wondering if it might be meant to use for some practical purpose.
> but there is still the issue of *10 million dollars*. is that really
> necessary for housing a business? i mean, my family has 32 spare acres up
> in northwest wisconsin that i'm sure they'd let go for substantially
> less...
$10 million? Where did you get this figure? According to the local,
secular Nashville press, CMI paid $1.16 million for the property.
Granted, still a lot of money, but a big different from $10 million.
> this... i really don't know how to respond to this, 'cuz to me, a million
> bucks is an whole lot of money. i mean, i know of plenty of bands that
> don't make anywhere *near* a million dollars in their whole career, let
> alone *lose* that much in one year. if this is the case, isn't there
> something wrong with the way things are being done? maybe he should tone
> down a little bit - he seemed to do just fine before his "mega-stardom"
> days...
There have been some cutbacks and down-sizing at Carman Ministries in the
past 6-10 months. So, any one that might be reading this that wrote him a
fan letter and you haven't gotten a response... this is why; the office
staff was cut in half. As far as "toning down a bit...", he just wants to
put on a professional show. One has to grow and progress as an artist,
and he's been doing this for 20 years, so he's grown quite a bit. And it
is *essential* that he do so... what would reach and minister to people
last year won't cut it this year. If he can't keep up with the times, his
ministry becomes ineffectual because nobody'd come to see it.
> what i *do*
> have a bit of a problem with is the fact that carman ministries is
> "non-profit"... my understanding, when i'm giving to the ministry of carman
> or anybody else, is that main portion of my money is going to go towards
> helping the needy and preaching the gospel. if someone wants a fancy car,
> that's none of my business, but i'm not going to empty my pockets to help
> him/her get it.
I agree... and as I explained the money people give at the concerts
doesn't even cover the cost of the show. It costs between
$80,000-$100,000 to put on a professional show like he does. Most people
in the audience put in change, if anything at all. So the money for the
house, his car, whatever, comes from sources other than the love
offerings. And btw, Carman Ministries does a lot of things that many
people don't even know about. The "Feed the Children" campaign on the
last tour was fairly well publicized, but most people never hear about the
ministry helping support crisis pregnancy centers or giving money to help
other Christian artists gets started, an example being the Newsboys.
> then this has changed quite a bit. back when i was a frequenter of carman
> concerts, though the size was a bit smaller, the people who attended did
> what they could to support the ministry. granted, he didn't make a huge
> profit from any concerts, but he always got what he needed, and even had
> enough left to buy a big mac.
Unfortunately, yes, things have changed a lot.
> i'm confused as to how they are separate. it just seems to me that there
> is a lot of money going around, and it might be managed a bit better. even
> if there are separate entities here, i would wonder about one hand
> struggling to support a ministry while the other hand buys is working in
> six figures.
>
> do you see where i'm coming from?
There are separate entities. Carman, Inc. is his *for* profit entity,
while Carman Ministries, Inc. is a *not* for profit entity. And both are
working in six figures. The operating budget for Carman Ministries is
$8-12 million a year, depending on exactly what they're doing that year.
When I said they lost $1 million on last year's tour, that was the
discrepency between the love offerings and the cost of the tour.
Obviously the money came from somewhere. But it wasn't from donations,
which, if I understood you correctly, was your problem. He isn't living
the "high life" on other people's money; he's spending money that he made
the old fashioned way... he earned it by hard work.
> sorry, don't have access to it. ever since a2j, i haven't been impressed
> with his stuff. (and this is a *purely* _personal_ artistic preference,
> having nothing to do with carman himself)
Well, I'd be happy to lend ya my CD... ;) Seriously, if you're
interested, I'll e-mail you the lyrics. As a musician myself, it has a
very powerful message on not selling out your talent and desires. :)
In Christ and Not 4 Sale,
~Donna
--
The World says I'm crazy, but I'm just.... Radically Saved!!
Get Thee behind me, Satan; I'm not 4 sale.
Troy M. Miller
Dru <iam...@advertisnet.com> wrote in article <iama2j-
> "Troy M. Miller" <tmmi...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> $10 million? Where did you get this figure? According to the local,
> secular Nashville press, CMI paid $1.16 million for the property.
> Granted, still a lot of money, but a big different from $10 million.
that's what i read on the quoting of the press release somebody posted
here. sorry if it was inaccurate.
> I agree... and as I explained the money people give at the concerts
> doesn't even cover the cost of the show. It costs between
> $80,000-$100,000 to put on a professional show like he does. Most people
um, wow. i had no idea the concerts were so expensive. maybe if it gets
to be this much, he needs to start charging a regular concert fee. but
this does seem a bit over the top for one concert - al densen came to my
puny little town of 2500 a couple of years ago and did a very professional
show for less than a tenth of this amount.
> > then this has changed quite a bit. back when i was a frequenter of
carman
> > concerts, though the size was a bit smaller, the people who attended
did
> > what they could to support the ministry. granted, he didn't make a
huge
> > profit from any concerts, but he always got what he needed, and even
had
> > enough left to buy a big mac.
>
> Unfortunately, yes, things have changed a lot.
i see. if it were me (which it obviously isn't now, is it, but hey, this
is usenet, i'm allowed to spout off my opinions, right? ;), i would step
back and take a look at things and see exactly *why* things have changed.
this is how it looks from my end. granted, i don't know carman personally
or anything, and this isn't intended as a judgement or anything, but ... i
must confess that i see very little effectiveness at the stage he is
currently at. disregarding some wonky theology and merchandising and
looking strictly at the concerts, i don't see a lot of fruit. yes, i
realize that the alter is most likely flooded each night - but too often
this type of commitment is emotional, and is not permanent... the seed sown
in the shallow soil if you will. (and this isn't just for carman...)
well, i've ranted a bit off the subject...
> > i'm confused as to how they are separate. it just seems to me that
there
> > is a lot of money going around, and it might be managed a bit better.
even
>
> There are separate entities. Carman, Inc. is his *for* profit entity,
> while Carman Ministries, Inc. is a *not* for profit entity. And both are
> working in six figures. The operating budget for Carman Ministries is
> $8-12 million a year, depending on exactly what they're doing that year.
> When I said they lost $1 million on last year's tour, that was the
> discrepency between the love offerings and the cost of the tour.
> Obviously the money came from somewhere. But it wasn't from donations,
> which, if I understood you correctly, was your problem. He isn't living
> the "high life" on other people's money; he's spending money that he made
> the old fashioned way... he earned it by hard work.
yeah, but... if his "for" profit entity is making enough money to buy a
million dollar "ranch" and provide him with a sufficient salary to buy all
this stuff (which isn't necessarily _bad_ of course), while he can't cover
the cost of his concerts... it still seems like there could be a compromise
or sharing between the two. in a way, the donations *are* going to pay for
that stuff, because that money could have been used to cover the concert
costs.
i just think that having both a *for* profit entity and a *not* for profit
entity is somewhat conflicting. maybe that's just being idealistic, or
unrealistic, i don't know. but, coming from the viewpoint of a former
carman "fan" (and by fan i mean an admirer of what he is trying to
accomplish), it appears to me as if something in his ministry has gotten
lost along the way...
> Well, I'd be happy to lend ya my CD... ;) Seriously, if you're
> interested, I'll e-mail you the lyrics. As a musician myself, it has a
it might be interesting to look at the lyrics, see where he's coming from.
i don't think he's necessarily "for sale", tho. imo, it's just more of the
thing that happens to everyone - we get so caught up in the "doing" of
God's work that we loose our focus somewhat.
i realize this has been a lot of opinion, but... it's late, and i need to
go to bed. i do appreciate your responses, tho.
--
troy (a.k.a. "Thor")
tmmi...@mtu.edu
i wanna drink out of that fountain, on a hill
called double cure. i wanna show you my
allegiance Lord. i wanna be a Son of yours.
- vigilantes of love
David Murray
You can't please everybody. Often, you can't please anybody.
First:
Linc Leifeste <spruc...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in article
<sprucegoose-01...@smf-g4.facsmf.utexas.edu>...
> In article <19970501053...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
sam...@aol.com
> (SamHag) wrote:
> > The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those
who
> > are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
> > conservative or liberal.
>
> or people who have a problem with selling jesus. or people who have a
> problem with reducing everything to a t-shirtable message. or people who
> have a problem with people getting rich on bad theology. or people who
> have a problem with jesus junk (such as jesus yo-yo's made in china).
etc.
Then:
Cheef Dan <chee...@netaxs.com> wrote in article <5kaadg$4...@netaxs.com>...
> David Murray (dbmu...@bogus.spam.com) wrote:
>
> : And then there was the customer who wanted us to special order the
> : "Necronomicon," and another who wanted "The Holy Koran" . . . Yeah,
right.
> : (These were not scholars or students wanting the texts for comparative
> : study purposes.)
>
> Hmmmm... and this was a problem? Interesting.
See what I mean? Some people will equate you with the money changers in the
temple if you sell pencils with "God Loves You" on them. Others think
you're being uptight if you refuse to sell the "Necronomicon," (which to my
understanding is a collection of Satanic symbols and spells) or the
"sacred" texts of non-Christian religions.
Am I the only one who sees an overlap here? I find it to be so vast, I
think it's pointless to discuss it any further, but I will anyway . . . at
least for one more thought.
The ability to be offended spans all personality types. And the offended
are always right (in their own minds).
Mull th(ese)is question(s): If I'm not offended by "Jesus junk," (ie.
yo-yos with "Jesus" printed on them) am I an immature Christian? Or . . .
If I'm not offended by blatently anti-Christian resources (ie. a book of
spells), am I a mature Christian?
Melody Kewl
Hello Dearies. :)
Ed Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
> On 1 May 1997, SamHag wrote:
> > In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.970429...@ias.ga.unc.edu>, Ed
> > Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
[snip]
> > They come into the store
> > earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
If one is such a person that GOES to church I would hope that
they would get answers there. I guess their confusion just begs
for someone to cater to... for a price. It's that or some sort of
whack implementation of a "tithe" I guess...
> > looking for products to encourage others in their walk with the Lord.
> > Often they are the ones at concerts and other events, not the pew potatoes
To quote a dear friend, "hmmmmm...". So the ones who are most often
in the market are the ones you have the most success selling to? ;)
> > or the holier than thou reactive Christians who have nothing better to do
> > but complain about everything they don't like.
And those that don't come into the market are to be despised? Whereas
you complain about those you disagree with. That one doesn't do much
much to tip a scale.
> Would you be referring to those who, maybe even because of deeply held
> convictions that simply run contrary to your own, chose not to shop at
> Christian bookstores?
Or those that actually feel the "spirit" of (and in) many of the CBSs
testify against them. Most of the ones I have been in really offer no
compelling "spiritual" reason for me to go there rather than
somewhere else.
[snip]
> > The people I've talked to who have gripes with CBS's seem to be those who
> > are angry because we don't succomb to their narrow beliefs, either
> > conservative or liberal.
~~~ narrow is way to god ~~~
~~~ wide the slide to the basement ~~~
~~~ feet blistered, cut, stony path trod ~~~
~~~ shiny ass waxed, polished base element ~~~
> My gripes have very little to do with succombing to or even catering to
> my beliefs. My problem is with the dishonesty involved in making or at
> the very least allowing and taking advantage of the notion that there was
> some sort of divine decree that believers should buy things with Christian
> labels from stores with Christian labels; and that if they don't then they
> are not pro-active Christians and are not actively seeking after God.
I get a similar "feel" from CBSs occasionally. There have only been a
couple that I really liked. And it wasn't because they catered to my
"narrow beliefs". Quite honestly it was because the owners were far
more concerned about actually ministering to people than making a
buck. Sure, you have to profit or you don't stay in business. However,
all God's blessing aren't monetary ones and there are things more
rewarding than making a profit. Foremost they were serving God the
best they knew how and allowing Him to decide the nature of the
business, not some slick marketing strategy.
Eventually I started working there part-time. And God knows my
outer appearance is not what one would expect to see behind the
counter of a CBS. But not much beats spending time helping
one person find what they need (regardless of another who may get
offended because they don't feel you took enough time helping them
find what trinket they want). It was such a comfort that the owners
preferred to have that happen. They were more interested in seeing
someone with a full heart than they were in seeing someone with a
full bag.
::: Sniff ::: Now I'm getting all misty...
> > Our biggest complaints - We carry all styles of music and is that stuff
> > Christian, the fact that we carry any other than the King James bible and
> > we carry Catholic items. We have people who call us up and ask if we
> > carry "Christian Heavy Metal", when we say yes they lay into us and tell
> > us they won't be coming into our store because of it. Our answer - have a
> > good life, we don't miss you.
And so you transfer this onto ALL who don't go into your store (or some
other CBS) regardless the reason?
> > The complaints in rmc about Christian Bookstores don't seem to be that
> > much different, just coming from a Christian liberal elitist viewpoint,
I'm not an elitist. I'm a bitch. I don't do much business at CBSs because
there are other places that have what I'm looking for at a better price.
I don't see a need to spend $15-$20 on a t-shirt just because it has a
picture or slogan on it when I can get a better quality t-shirt (with
no slogan) for significantly less.
[snip]
> > "You carry Yo-Yo's with Jesus printed on the side, you have pictures with
> > Bible verses on, etc". I don't always agree with everything we carry, but
> > I do get to see the excitement of young kids and adults who want these
> > things. Who am I to question their enthusiam.
I'd just bet the young children are more excited about the yo-yo than they
are about the picture or verse. It's sad to think that the parents may get
excited about a yo-yo with the picture or verse and give it to the child for
him to enjoy but wouldn't let the child enjoy one without a picture or verse.
If the kid is using it properly you shouldn't see any of that anyhow. Maybe
it's some subliminal thing...
[snip]
> > Some of the things you people
>
> THWAP!!!!!!
>
> > complain about are used by Sunday School teachers who are looking
> > for inexpensive gifts to give their students as incentives for learning
> > their versus or just a thank you for being my students, parents on very
> > fixed incomes where spending under $1 is all they can afford at the time
> > and the like.
>
> You know I understand this aurgument, which I've heard forever. Gotta
> admit, it even pulls on my heartstrings and everything, but I also gotta
> wonder however did people before the 20th century spiritually survive
> without them.
They probably just spent a little more time with the children rather than
using the time to go shopping. ;) [LIBERAL ELITIST BITCHINESS?]
> > I would like to humbly suggest that you open your world view to see the
> > positives in what the Christian bookstores try to do. When you do nothing
> > you get very few complaints, when you are active it is very easy for
> > others to pick apart what you do. What I don't understand is why someone
> > finds the stuff in a Christian bookstore objectionable yet they don't find
> > most of the general market music and it's message objectionalbe. I'm
> > sorry, but I just don't understand the logic.
I don't even see how you make that connection. What makes you think
that one must like one to dislike the other? I find objectionable (to me)
things
in both places. It's just that if you complain about a CBS are opening
yourself up to criticism from the "all thing to all people (even if it's
bad things)"
crowd. Why should some people think that if one complains about some of
the things that are sold in CBSs that that person is some sort of secular
market whore?
> I find it pretty easy to understand. The general market doesn't use
> Jesus' Name as a selling point.
Yeah they do. But most folks just assume they are christians. ;)
Melody
Ed Rock
On 1 May 1997, Dru wrote:
> One has to grow and progress as an artist,
> and he's been doing this for 20 years, so he's grown quite a bit.
Artist? Sorry, my tongue hurts.
Ed Rock
On 1 May 1997, Dru wrote:
> One has to grow and progress as an artist,
> and he's been doing this for 20 years, so he's grown quite a bit. And it
> is *essential* that he do so... what would reach and minister to people
> last year won't cut it this year. If he can't keep up with the times, his
> ministry becomes ineffectual because nobody'd come to see it.
And he's the only one who can do it. What would God do if not for Carman?
Will McDonald
>
>
>
>> There are plenty of examples:
>>
>> -- anything Texe Marrs has written
>>
>> -- almost anything to do with U.S. history (this includes both books
>> and CCM)
>>
>
>I'm not a frequent visitor to my local Christian Bookstore, so pardon
me for asking. Who's Texe
>Marrs?
It's hard to describe Texe Marrs... You can get acquainted with him
on the web.
Try his home page -- http://www.texemarrs.com/
>What's up about the bit on US history?
Well, everyone copies each other's "research" so much it is all
pretty much the same. A few that you might want to look at would be
Peter Marshall's, "The Light and the Glory," Carman's "Raising the
Standard," and pretty much any U.S. "history" book that cites David
Barton, D. James Kennedy, the Providence Foundation, or John
Whitehead.
Ed Rock
On 2 May 1997, David Murray wrote:
> Mull th(ese)is question(s): If I'm not offended by "Jesus junk," (ie.
> yo-yos with "Jesus" printed on them) am I an immature Christian? Or . . .
> If I'm not offended by blatently anti-Christian resources (ie. a book of
> spells), am I a mature Christian?
Sorry, but I don't see Christianity as nearly that simple. It's a lot
more complex than having a formula that says if I do or don't do this then
I am or am not a mature, pro-active, God seeking Christian.
There are even non-believers who aren't offended by Jesus junk and
non-belivers who are offended by blatantly anti-Christian resources and
yet, by their very being non-beleivers are not mature Christians.
If it were that simple, it might be easier to believe than not to...
Ed Rock
On Fri, 2 May 1997, Melody Kewl wrote:
> Ed Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
> > On 1 May 1997, SamHag wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > They come into the store
> > > earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
>
> If one is such a person that GOES to church I would hope that
> they would get answers there. I guess their confusion just begs
> for someone to cater to... for a price. It's that or some sort of
> whack implementation of a "tithe" I guess...
Now there's an idea. Tithe Premiums...
If you tithe to the 11%, the 1% over and above mark, not only do you get
the standard benefits and perks of membership like pastoral care, a
parking place on Sundays, and your spot in line at dinner on the grounds,
but you also get a lovely Carman cassette.
At the 13% level, we'll upgrade that cassette to cd.
At the 15% level we'll throw in both the cd *and* a videotape of "Thief in
the Night."
At the 20% level, we'll throw in answers...
Peter Schrock
> >
> > Now there's an idea. Tithe Premiums...
> >
> > If you tithe to the 11%, the 1% over and above mark, not only do you get
> > the standard benefits and perks of membership like pastoral care, a
> > parking place on Sundays, and your spot in line at dinner on the
grounds,
> > but you also get a lovely Carman cassette.
> >
> > At the 13% level, we'll upgrade that cassette to cd.
> >
> > At the 15% level we'll throw in both the cd *and* a videotape of "Thief
in
> > the Night."
> >
> > At the 20% level, we'll throw in answers...
>
Dear Mr. Rock & Ms. Kewl,
I am writing to you in regards to your new program. I am especially
interested in getting the Answers. I would also like to be considered for
your parking and potluck lunch program. I don't really need the Carman
tapes but thank you anyway. Please let me know where to send the money.
Regards,
P.
Melody Kewl
Hello. :)
Ed Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
> On Fri, 2 May 1997, Melody Kewl wrote:
> > Ed Rock <ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu> writes:
> > > On 1 May 1997, SamHag wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > They come into the store
> > > > earnestly searching for answers they have concerning their faith or
> >
> > If one is such a person that GOES to church I would hope that
> > they would get answers there. I guess their confusion just begs
> > for someone to cater to... for a price. It's that or some sort of
> > whack implementation of a "tithe" I guess...
>
> Now there's an idea. Tithe Premiums...
>
> If you tithe to the 11%, the 1% over and above mark, not only do you get
> the standard benefits and perks of membership like pastoral care, a
> parking place on Sundays, and your spot in line at dinner on the grounds,
> but you also get a lovely Carman cassette.
>
> At the 13% level, we'll upgrade that cassette to cd.
>
> At the 15% level we'll throw in both the cd *and* a videotape of "Thief in
> the Night."
>
> At the 20% level, we'll throw in answers...
Do you have to show pay stubs to confirm the proper level of contribution
or do they just take your word for it?
And can you get a plan where you don't have to tithe or go to church
and just pay a flat rate for all answers? I was in a church that had
a variable rate for the answers depending on how difficult it was to
find a verse reference and "appropriately endorsed literature" that
addressed the question. ;) Anything that could be suitably answered
by "John 3:16" was free, but if you asked something like, "I want to
be a rock-n-roll star and an Elijah-type prophet. Is there any reason
why I can't?", you'd better be prepared to cough up some money. ;)
Melody
"Who has more than just a little trouble with the entire idea of current
implementations of a tithe as scripturally sound"
Kewl
Tulsa Band
Brian Tegart wrote:
>
> Tulsa Band (Tul...@ionet.net) wrote:
> : Ed Rock wrote:
> : >
> : > I think there's a difference between spurring folks on to
> : > doing what Jesus said to do and making them feel goospimples
> : > when they read "Footprints;"
>
> : You can dis 'Footprints', but don't mess with my 'Serenity Prayer'...
>
> How about the "Senility Prayer"?
>
> 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
> Courage to change the things I can,
> And serenity to accept the things I can't'
Oh, man, and I even warned you...
--Dallas 'About to make the papers' Koehn; tul...@ionet.net