Sandi Patty's revelation
Samantha Hamilton
affair 3 years ago as I am??????
It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
into sin?
Ray Zoller
<cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
> affair 3 years ago as I am??????
It's pretty disturbing considering we were left to believe she was
somewhat an innocent victim of divorce.
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
> into sin?
Oh no... not lose faith. Our faith is in Christ not Sandi. No one is
"safe" from falling into sin. There's no such thing as "safe." We must
all be careful that such things don't happen to us. The old saying "there
but for the grace of God go I" might apply here. Maybe when you become
famous for your faith is when you're most vulnerable. I hope the Christian
music community will wake up and make themselves more accountable in their
personal lives. It boils down to lack of accountability and then there's
always Satan and his associates always roaming... trying to smear the name
of Christ.
--
-----------------------------/\--/\--/\--------------------------
Ray Zoller /\/\/ \/\/\ rzo...@usa.net
Evergreen, Colorado USA / \ / \ www.usa.net/~rzoller
--------------------------/------\/------\-----------------------
Kees Boer
Amen to that!
>No one is
>"safe" from falling into sin. There's no such thing as "safe." We must
>all be careful that such things don't happen to us. The old saying "there
>but for the grace of God go I" might apply here.
Amen to that again! :-)
> Maybe when you become
>famous for your faith is when you're most vulnerable. I hope the Christian
>music community will wake up and make themselves more accountable in their
>personal lives. It boils down to lack of accountability and then there's
>always Satan and his associates always roaming... trying to smear the name
>of Christ.
Just because someone is a talented musician that doesn't mean they have godly
character, that takes consistent obedience to God's Word over time. (Heb.
5:13,14).
Kees
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xenia: Why don't you quit, while you're still ahead.
Bond: That's one trick, I've never learned!
-- GoldenEye -- 1995
=============================================================================
Kees J. Boer
E-Mail:........................................... KB...@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
University of Florida Police Department:..................... (904) 392-9541
Home:.........................................................(904) 335-0142
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bruce Geerdes
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
It does tend to make a cynical person a little more cynical. :)
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith.
Well, if my faith was in Sandi Patti, yes it would make me lose my
faith.
> Is anyone safe from falling into sin?
Nope. Be ever vigilant and pray that you don't make the same mistakes
Sandi did.
bgee...@rmii.com
C:\ONGRTLNS.W95
Rob Smith
sinned and come short of the glory of God." Also in Ecclesiastes 7:20 the
Bible says, "For there is not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good,
and sinneth not." For you see, it is our human nature that originated in
tha Garden of Eden since after the beginning. I am in not justifying
what Sandi did, because it is very wrong. It has come to an extreme
shock to me. I imagine it will put an big glitch in her witness.
I am just so glad that God did give His son, as it says in John 3:16,
that we might believe and have eternal life. The Bible says that there
is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Which simply means that if we don't accept Him as Savior of our life, we
choose to take our destiny into our own hands. I don't know about you,
but someone that has made as many mistakes as myself sure doesn't need
that great responsibility. Maybe Sandi did mess up, but she can find
forgiveness in a loving, compassionate Heavenly Father.
In Him,
Rob Smith
Mississippi State Univ.
RBlake6279
desperate need of a saviour. OR maybe you thought christians are perfect.
I am surprised by Sandy Patty simply because she lied to her audience when
she was divorced. She sdhould have told the truth then, but I guess she
would not have raked in the cash then either.
Rob
RBl...@aol.com
"Some people say that God is dead, that He doesnt exist except inside your
head. I wonder how many are going to be surprised when they look straight
up and see him coming through the skies".....Larry Norman
Beverley
Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>There is not one righteous. No, not one.
Not even Carm-----*GLUG*
<Beverley is dragged down into the pit>
--
P l e a s e E x p l a i n T h e F o l l o w i n g ----------------------
Public Transit In The United States ------- Gerbert ---------- The Death Of
The Big Band Sound ----------- Zoloft ----- Deee-Lite's "Holographic Groove
Sound" --------- The Expression "Bum Rush The Show" -----------------------
Tim Fegan
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
>into sin?
>
Samantha...
I can only echo many of the previous replies. None of us are imune from
sin...we are all capable of similar sins in our own life. If only we were
all shocked by our own sins as much as we are by the sins of others.
While people will invariably talk (gossip?) about Sandi, we should
remember that there is forgiveness for everyone who humbly confess their
sins. May we all be quick to turn from our sins and seek forgiveness.
--
Yours in Christ,
Tim
.---. .-----------
/ \ __ / ------ Those who wait upon the Lord
/ / \( )/ ----- will gain new strength.
////// ' \/ ` --- They will mount up with wings like eagles
//// / // : : --- They will run and not grow tired,
// / / /` '-- They will walk and not become weary.
// //..\\ (Is. 40:31)
----UU----UU----------------------------------------------------
'//||\\` tfe...@nmu.edu
''``
http://www-student.acs.nmu.edu/students/tfegan/tfegan.html
Beverley
Samantha Hamilton <cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
>Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
>into sin?
>
We're fallible creatures. It's a fact of the universe. The first and last
man to lead a sinless life died two thousand years ago on two pieces of
wood, at that moment becoming your sins, my sins, Sandi's sins, sins that
made her affair look like jaywalking by our point-of-view... all because
we're not safe from the fall, and we have fallen, and we shall fall...
this is our hope as Christians. That He transmogrified into our tumble
and rose again... here is our faith, not in fallible humanity upholding
a standard.
Romans 3:23 -- where the cliche reveals its truth: "...all have sinned and
fall short of the glory of God..."
All. Not all but CCM artists. All of us.
Please, I ask you, look hard at your faith over this... in what do you
trust? The promise was *never* that Christ would keep us from tripping up,
but that in Him our sins are paid for... if we didn't screw up, He would
have died for nothing.
And we would have nothing to learn, as a result, from the moment of our
salvation onward.
It's not Christians we're supposed to believe in, it's *Christ*. God may
work through man, but we *cannot* worship His works... no matter how
lovely they may be.
That which is flesh shall ever fail... don't put your faith in it. Please.
No one but Jesus can be Jesus for you. It's sad. I know.
But the miracle wouldn't be the miracle without this fatal flaw.
Hold fast. Pray.
-- Bev, frantically apologizing for her preachmode.... *sigh*
"All those things that hide will be revealed/Never |Beverley R. White|
is a word that's lost all meaning/Nothing in this |w e d n e s d a y|
world will ever be more real.." -- Lawrence Gowan |PhOEbE@ClubBOB(c)|
Chuck Pearson
bunch of replies to a post and none of them reflect my viewpoint. of
course, maybe i just need to learn to keep my mouth shut.
cc'ed to the original poster.
Samantha Hamilton <cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from >falling into sin?
obvious replies: make sure your faith is in Christ and not in sandi
patty. no, no one is safe from falling into sin. once michael english
admitted what he did, what else should shock you? etc., etc., ad
infinitum, ad nauseum.
but let's look at your underlying assumptions carefully, samantha. why
would you think that sandi patty is in such a high position that she
would be the least likely person to "fall into sin," as it were? why
should she have such a high spiritual position?
the only answer that holds any water is that patty is an extrordinarily
gifted singer (alt.heads, let's give the benefit of the doubt here) who
has sold a couple million recordings of her songs. and musical gifts do
not imply any degree of will-power to the individual. recall that king
david was quite the gifted musician, and recall the means by which his
son solomon was born.
ah, but there is a difference between sandi patty and king david. david
had his authority conferred by a priest of the living God. patty had her
authority conferred to her by the american marketplace. so which of the
two would have the greater motivation to keep their transgressions
secret?
the point that i'm trying to make is that contemporary american
evangelicalism is pratically the antithesis of the kingdom of God. sandi
patty and michael english and most of the "big stars" of ccm are high
priests of the american church, and at the same time they have not been
ordained by God, but by your dollars and mine. why should we be so
surprised that they've fallen?
why should we be surprised that the american church is so dead?
ccm is dead, and God, who we and all our dollars have so conveniently
forgotten, is still on the throne of the universe. may He ever be
praised.
chuck
---
"wide-eyed wonder girl, staring into the sky, wondering why it's a good,
great world, but it turns around, never mind the ground..." - the choir
(dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state is chuck pearson, father of a little
wide-eyed wonder of his own, amelia catherine pearson.)
Ed Rock
> Is anyone safe from falling into sin?
There is not one righteous. No, not one.
If anyone thinks he is without sin, he deceives himself.
Ed Rock | "Is it the winter of our discontent
aka Ed Crabtree | or just an early frost?"
ercr...@email.unc.edu | --Kevin Gilbert
Ed Rocks the Web http://ecsvax.uncecs.edu/~ecrab/
smtpgw.musc.edu
no sin does not have the Truth within him."
In article <42aq5n$m...@news.usit.net>, Samantha Hamilton
<cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
> affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
> into sin?
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu
> In article <42aq5n$m...@news.usit.net>,
> Samantha Hamilton <cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
>> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>
>
> (Not surprised by the affair, but surprised by the admission.)
Allright we get through with M. Knott and now cause were bored wqe decide it's
time to pick on Sandi Pati
A few points
1. Yes she had an affair
2. She admitted to it
3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells me) so
therefore she had obviously sought forgiveness and since she has sought
therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible says)
Finnally let's not let this thread get out of hand, it's simple everyone falls
from grace what they do afterwards is important, I too have fallen though it
was a small fall I got back with God, and am therefore forgiven, so now the
story is acuytlaly a mute point.
--Mark
Only YOU can save your music scene
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu
> Absolutely not! Why do you think we needed a Savior? "He who says he has
> no sin does not have the Truth within him."
>
> <cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
>
>> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>> affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>>
>> into sin?
Patti things and start discussing some cool stuff,
Anyone else think that hokus pick's new album is by far one of their best
albums
any black cherry soda fans
what about 100 portraits?
Speaking of 100 ,Portraits
Thursday September 7 appearing at the Chi Alpha RUSH party 100 Portraits 7 pm
1613 North Street Nacogodoches, TX!!!!! good show good fun, good food good
drams...all for the absolute low price of 0$$$ that's rights it's free!!!!!
If you live near Nacogodoches, drop me a line if your interested i'll give
specifics to the show...
--Mark
chee...@netaxs.com
Samantha Hamilton <cfh...@usit.net> wrote:
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
I sure am.
J. Streck
>sandi
>patty and michael english and most of the "big stars" of ccm are high
>priests of the american church, and at the same time they have not been
>ordained by God, but by your dollars and mine.
The sound you are now hearing is that of the nail being hit forcibly
and accurately on the head.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Gideon van Zyl
to repentance from dead works etc. etc?? At least she didn't wait for some major scandal
to explode before she repented. That shows some belief in what she stands for and at the
same time shows a level of honesty that very few Christians show. How about your secret
sins?? How about telling them to the whole world??
-Gideon-
David Roze
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>
>into sin?
>
nature that will get the better of us at times if we let our
guard down. This however, should not cause us to lose faith.
Our focus should not be directed toward people and the bad or
good things that they do, but upon Christ who is perfect and
has never let any of us down. Incidents like this should
re-enforce the fact that apart from the strength and grace of
the Holy Spirit it is absolutely impossible to live this
Christian life. But thank God, even when we do sin Jesus is
'faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from
all unrighteousness' when we truly repent. This is why Christ
came - for sinners in desperate need of grace.
Rather than allowing this incident to discourage you, focus on
the love and grace of God, without which you and the rest of us
would not have salvation today.
God bless,
David Roze
Sydney, Australia
Chuck Pearson
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu wrote:
>Anyone else think that hokus pick's new album is by far one of their >best albums
"one of," that is. personally, i don't think anything uncle matt and the
boys have done before or since compares to _pick_it_up_. that album has
"masterpiece" written all over it.
but _bookaboom!_ is very fast growing on me. the question i have is, how
do you describe the sound? it almost strikes me as surf pop, but not
quite...space pop, maybe? (the album cover notwithstanding.)
Chuck Pearson
>Allright we get through with M. Knott and now cause were bored wqe >decide it's time to pick on Sandi Pati
again, don't assume we're picking on sandi patty. with knott, rumors
abounded. pratically everything in this thread has had to do with
matters of record.
>[...]
>
>3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells >me) so therefore she had obviously sought forgiveness and =
since she has >sought therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible >says)
ahem? why should the fact that patty has put an album out on a christian
label imply any degree of spiritual correctness in what she's doing?
if what you're saying is true, then it comes to my attention that patty
is still divorced. where's the repentance and reconciliation for her
blatant sin there?
>Finnally let's not let this thread get out of hand, it's simple everyone >falls from grace what they do afterwards is important, I =
too have fallen >though it was a small fall I got back with God, and am therefore >forgiven, so now the story is acuytlaly a mute po=
int.
ah, but do you sell thousands upon thousands of albums because you sing
songs about God?
the point is, ccm is an INDUSTRY. its connection with the Church is
minimal, and is glossed over for the sake of profits. i'm amazed that we
are still pretending that sandi patty and michael english are any
different from madonna and michael jackson. only the words in the songs
are different.
Bruce Geerdes
>3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells me) so
>therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible says)
Actually, that remains to be seen. I believe her record company has
put off releasing a Christmas album that was supposed to come out this
year.
--
bgee...@rmii.com
C:\ONGRTLNS.W95
J. Streck
>3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells me) so
>therefore she had obviously sought forgiveness and since she has sought
>therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible says)
So if one records for the Christian music industry one is therefore
necessarily right with God? Uh, no.
And personally, I don't remember the Bible mentioning the Christian music
industry at all.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Will McDonald
writes:
> Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
>affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>
> It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from
falling
>into sin?
>
No one is "safe." You will not reach a "safe" time in your Christian
life until you see Christ face-to-face.
Will
Chuck Pearson
>>the point is, ccm is an INDUSTRY. its connection with the Church is
>>minimal, and is glossed over for the sake of profits. i'm amazed that >>we are still pretending that sandi patty and michael english are any
>>different from madonna and michael jackson. only the words in the >>songs are different.
>
>little balance is in order.
oh, sure, interject common sense into the argument...8-)
> Yes, Sandi is like Madonna in that she's
>a singer who makes money from singing and who sins. But she's
>different in at least two significant ways. Her professed goals are
>quite different and the affect she has had on people is different.
>
>Regarding the first one, I think it's important that Sandi has openly
>tried to glorify God through her singing. Yes, she's failed in aspects
>of her personal life, and haven't we all. But that does not suddenly
>negate everything else and make her akin to Madonna. That seems like
>a strange leap of logic to me, Chuck.
>
>Regarding the second point, her albums have had a tremendous impact
>on the church and I would argue largely for the good. Yes, it irritates
>me too that for so many people she's this saint-like figure, but I
>also know many people who have benefitted in their worship because
>of her albums. Her public sin does not nullify that fact.
i will grant you that patty's public sin does not nullify all of the
correct things she has said and done in the past - if you remember, i
made similar arguments way-back-when when the michael english stuff was
coming to a head. sandi patty is still my sister in Christ, no matter
what happens...and, i'll grant, maybe the madonna comparison is a bit
harsh...
..except in this regard: i do not believe the impact of artists like
patty on the church has been for the good. i believe they set up an
image of what christianity should be as all sweetness and light, and
lovey-lovey-doesn't-Jesus-make-us-happy-all-the-time? stuff. and that's
a lie of the same caliber of madonna's world-view (which, i hope, we
don't need to discuss).
sandi patty makes albums because sandi patty albums are guaranteed to
move 100,000+ copies every time out. anybody can sing about Jesus, and
many people can sing about Jesus more accurately than patty can. but
nobody else can sing with patty's voice and image.
>To make a comparison, think of Gordon MacDonald, the guy who wrote
>Ordering Your Private World. Turns out he also had an affair. Does his
>affair suddenly make his book worthless? Hardly. The truth he spoke in
>that book is still truth. And the Xn book industry is just as much, if
>not more so, an industry as the Xn music scene. Just because something
>is part of a money-making operation does not mean it can't also have
>other benefits. And just because Christians make mistakes doesn't mean
>their ability to minister to the body (in whatever way they're called)
>is cancelled out.
granted, but again, macdonald has gifts for teaching. having read
_private_world_, i've found it contains some very profound truth and some
very wise statements. i do not find teachings of the caliber of
macdonald in sandi patty's albums. again, macdonald has status in the
evangelical community because of his leadership experience and his
teaching gifts. sandi patty has status in the evangelical community
'cause she can move thousands of items of product with her name on it.
if you want somebody in the christian book industry to compare sandi
patty to, i'd go with benny hinn, imnsho.
i understand what you're saying, j robert, but i think you're giving
patty just a bit too much benefit of the doubt.
Jeffrey Parks
Chuck Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>..except in this regard: i do not believe the impact of artists like
>patty on the church has been for the good. i believe they set up an
>image of what christianity should be as all sweetness and light, and
>lovey-lovey-doesn't-Jesus-make-us-happy-all-the-time? stuff. and that's
>a lie of the same caliber of madonna's world-view (which, i hope, we
>don't need to discuss).
Well then, why aren't you thrilled that Sandi's life has taken a turn
for the worst? What a glorious example of a more proper world-view.
Ok, I admit my tongue's a little bit in my cheek. But I do think we've
got a cause-and-effect problem here. Yes, I love music which presents
a more balanced approach to life. I argued just as much in a thread
a couple weeks ago regarding 6pence. But just because Sandi chooses
to focus on the joy in worshipping God, as opposed to the difficulty
which certain alternative artists emphasize, doesn't mean she's
responsible when her audience gets out of balance. I think it makes
much more sense to believe that the people were already embracing a
"lovey-lovey" worldview and found Sandi fit in well with that.
And just because some worship/inspirational music happens to
reinforce certain belief structures we (yes, me too) find counter-
productive (even abhorrent) doesn't mean that music should be
destroyed. I could make the same argument about certain alternative
music--those bands focus so much on the difficulties of life that they
reinforce teenagers' belief that the world completely sucks. Therefore,
because the world does not completely suck, those bands should not
be allowed to make music. I suspect you wouldn't agree with this line
of argument.
And finally, I do think that a world-view which you described Sandi
as promoting is of a different animal than the one Madonna advocates.
One is out of balance, the other is flat-out wrong.
>sandi patty makes albums because sandi patty albums are guaranteed to
>move 100,000+ copies every time out. anybody can sing about Jesus, and
>many people can sing about Jesus more accurately than patty can. but
>nobody else can sing with patty's voice and image.
Chuck, what's the point here? And why are we questioning Sandi's
motives? Maybe Sandi makes music because she likes it and it gives
her joy and it fulfills the desires God has put in her heart. I
don't know, to be honest, but I'd like to give her the benefit
of the doubt. Besides, the same is true of Amy and I don't see any
sane person getting upset about her sales figures.
>granted, but again, macdonald has gifts for teaching. having read
>_private_world_, i've found it contains some very profound truth and some
>very wise statements. i do not find teachings of the caliber of
>macdonald in sandi patty's albums.
My point, exactly. Sandi is not and has never aspired, as far as
I know, to be a teacher. She's a singer. Yes, some (many) of her
fans may have got out of whack but I haven't seen her do that. Since
she's not a teacher but rather a singer of worship/inspirational
music, let's hold her to that standard. Let's encourage her to be
more balanced in the songs she chooses to sing, let's admonish her
fans to not put her on a pedestal (although I don't think we'll have
that problem anymore) and, on the flip side, let's not lay everything
that's bad about CCM/the Church at her feet. It's hardly her fault.
>if you want somebody in the christian book industry to compare sandi
>patty to, i'd go with benny hinn, imnsho.
A low blow, Chuck. If Sandi were out there conducting seminars, writing
teaching books, and impersonating a pastor, then the comparison might
be fair. Since none of those are true, I don't see how the comparison
is valid.
My comparison with Macdonald was just that adultery, while a
heinous sin, does not cancel out the worth of someone's ministry
nor should it necessarily disqualify someone from using the gifts
that God has given him/her.
>i understand what you're saying, j robert, but i think you're giving
>patty just a bit too much benefit of the doubt.
And I understand what you're saying, Chuck, but I think you're ascribing
to Sandi too much of the blame for what we both agree is wrong with the
Church.
Thanks for the civility of your response. I endeavored to keep mine
on the same level. My apolgies if I failed.
J Robert
who doesn't and will never own a Sandi Patti record.
SIGALASM
industry's integrity. It is a business, and if an adultress or cocaine
addict can make and sell Christian records (and hence buy cars, houses,
etc. for Christian record promoters and distributors,) there are few who
have the integrity (or the respect for the record-buying public) to stop
the flow of money for Christ's sake. It's an unfortunate situation when
so many Christians depend for their material livelihood on so few. I
wonder how many people's paychecks depend on Amy Grant's wholesome
reputation. What would they do if they found out that she was lying to her
public? Expose Amy and lose their Explorer and house in the suburbs?
Yes, we are all human, and we all sin. But the Church needs to be wary
of constructing situations (like the CCM industry) which breed sin and
hypocrisy by their very nature,with few if any safeguards. As I've posted
elsewhere, I think that we are all responsible for thrusting people into
situations where for which they are not spiritually prepared, merely out
of our own desire to be "entertained" and "inspired."
As others have said, it is foolish for us to put our deepest faith into
anyone but Jesus. But it IS necessary to put some faith, or trust, into
our leaders. And unfortunately, our celebrity-hungry evangelical
subculture has thrust musicians (in most other generations, a group held
highly suspect by the Church) into the spotlight as some type of spiritual
leaders/examples/authorities. I don't think there were celebrities in the
early church; if there were, they were those who had proven themselves
faithful in carrying out God's work--not those who merely had a cute face
and a way with a hook.
Mike
Jeffrey Parks
Chuck Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>the point is, ccm is an INDUSTRY. its connection with the Church is
>minimal, and is glossed over for the sake of profits. i'm amazed that we
>are still pretending that sandi patty and michael english are any
>different from madonna and michael jackson. only the words in the songs
>are different.
I hate to say this (because I say it all the time), but I think a
little balance is in order. Yes, Sandi is like Madonna in that she's
a singer who makes money from singing and who sins. But she's
different in at least two significant ways. Her professed goals are
quite different and the affect she has had on people is different.
Regarding the first one, I think it's important that Sandi has openly
tried to glorify God through her singing. Yes, she's failed in aspects
of her personal life, and haven't we all. But that does not suddenly
negate everything else and make her akin to Madonna. That seems like
a strange leap of logic to me, Chuck.
Regarding the second point, her albums have had a tremendous impact
on the church and I would argue largely for the good. Yes, it irritates
me too that for so many people she's this saint-like figure, but I
also know many people who have benefitted in their worship because
of her albums. Her public sin does not nullify that fact.
To make a comparison, think of Gordon MacDonald, the guy who wrote
Ordering Your Private World. Turns out he also had an affair. Does his
affair suddenly make his book worthless? Hardly. The truth he spoke in
that book is still truth. And the Xn book industry is just as much, if
not more so, an industry as the Xn music scene. Just because something
is part of a money-making operation does not mean it can't also have
other benefits. And just because Christians make mistakes doesn't mean
their ability to minister to the body (in whatever way they're called)
is cancelled out.
J Robert
Chuck Pearson
>>i understand what you're saying, j robert, but i think you're giving
>>patty just a bit too much benefit of the doubt.
>And I understand what you're saying, Chuck, but I think you're ascribing
>to Sandi too much of the blame for what we both agree is wrong with the
>Church.
sounds like it's time to agree to disagree to me. 8-)
>Thanks for the civility of your response. I endeavored to keep mine
>on the same level. My apolgies if I failed.
none necessary, 'cause you didn't. you did nothing worse than make me
think reely reely hard, which i didn't really expect to happen in my
second day back posting. thanks, bro.
chuck, who appreciates reely deep thoughts.
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu
> in a right-hand turn one wouldn't expect out of a sandi patty thread,
> z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu wrote:
>
>>Anyone else think that hokus pick's new album is by far one of their >best albums
>
> "one of," that is. personally, i don't think anything uncle matt and the
> boys have done before or since compares to _pick_it_up_. that album has
> "masterpiece" written all over it.
>
> but _bookaboom!_ is very fast growing on me. the question i have is, how
> do you describe the sound? it almost strikes me as surf pop, but not
> quite...space pop, maybe? (the album cover notwithstanding.)
>
> chuck
>
> "wide-eyed wonder girl, staring into the sky, wondering why it's a good,
> great world, but it turns around, never mind the ground..." - the choir
> (dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state is chuck pearson, father of a little
> wide-eyed wonder of his own, amelia catherine pearson.)
>
>
love the bonus track I think it's pretty7 cool, True thouh Pick It Up is by
far their best work still wondering why they dropped the manouver part from
their name...
Jojo
the Labor Day weekend, I was surprised and shocked to read the 20+
posts dealing with Sandy Patti's affair. I was also surprised and
shocked to see that none of the posts quoted a magazine, newspaper, TV
show, etc. to give credibility to the fact. It just seemed to be
a given that what was said in the first post was true.
Forgive me for being a bit sceptical, but having been the first person
to post a response to the intitial (and unsubstantiated) claim that
Amy Grant was having an affair with Vince Gill, I'd like two or three
people to give a reference...an article they read, a TV news program
they saw...just something to give a little credibility to this post.
Right now, it just looks like a huge rumor.
---
Matthew "Jojo" Prins
gl4...@semovm.semo.edu (GL49..., not G149...)
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~mred/jwz/
James Townsley
>..except in this regard: i do not believe the impact of artists like
>patty on the church has been for the good. i believe they set up an
>image of what christianity should be as all sweetness and light, and
>lovey-lovey-doesn't-Jesus-make-us-happy-all-the-time? stuff. and that's
>a lie of the same caliber of madonna's world-view (which, i hope, we
>don't need to discuss).
I see what you are saying, Chuck, but I don't think the problem is with
the singer. It's with a church that endorses ONLY that type of singer.
Sandi Patty has her place in Christian music. Sometimes some people need
the Jesus makes us happy stuff. I think it's important to have artists
who are doing this type of music. While I prefer music that makes me
think a little more, I don't think that her music is completely
irrelevant.
As for this music being a lie, it's possible. A lie of ommission maybe.
It doesn't deny the hard times, it just doesn't focus on them. Is music
that focuses on the dark times, and ignores the good in life any better?
A balance would be nice, but we can get that by listening to a bit of
Sandi Patty here, a bit of The Choir there, a bit of Rich Mullins, a bit
of Jars of Clay, a bit of whoever. I don't think people who are into
Sandi Patty necessarily avoid other types of music...
It's not Sandi that is responsible for the balance, it's us.
..oh dear...I think I've strayed from the subject...
>
>granted, but again, macdonald has gifts for teaching. having read
>_private_world_, i've found it contains some very profound truth and some
>very wise statements. i do not find teachings of the caliber of
>macdonald in sandi patty's albums. again, macdonald has status in the
>evangelical community because of his leadership experience and his
>teaching gifts. sandi patty has status in the evangelical community
>'cause she can move thousands of items of product with her name on it.
But she couldn't do that if she didn't somehow inspire people. And is
that inspiration any less important than the intellectual truths you may
find in books?
>i understand what you're saying, j robert, but i think you're giving
>patty just a bit too much benefit of the doubt.
>
That's certainly possible. We do tend to idolize singers in this society.
They seem to be able to do no wrong. And it IS somehow more tragic when
a public figure who speaks for Christ sins. But then, it's more joyous
when they turn back to God...(of course, I have no way of knowing whether
or not Sandi Patty has turned back...but it's not for me to worry about)
--
Later,
James Townsley
jam...@mindlink.bc.ca
"Sometimes the night is beautiful
Sometimes the sky seems so far away
Sometimes it seems to steep so close
You could touch it but your heart would break"
Sometimes by Step
-Rich Mullins-
Hinton A Crockett III
Hamilton <cfh...@usit.net>' wrote:
>Is there anyone else out there as shocked by Sandi's admission of an
affair 3 years ago as I am??????
>It's almost enough to make one lose faith. Is anyone safe from falling
into sin?
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
be grateful I'm not famous. When I fall, ('when', not 'if'), I'd
rather someone pray for (and/or with) me and help me, than to
point the finger, cover the mouth and say: "Oh, no! Not you!".
I'm afraid I'm too busy watching my steps and watching for
Christ's return to worship the great voices I will continue to
enjoy.
--
Hinton Crockett (hin...@usa.pipeline.com)
"To grow older is mandatory. To mature is
optional."
Will McDonald
>
>As someone who has not had an opportunity to read the newsgroups over
>the Labor Day weekend, I was surprised and shocked to read the 20+
>posts dealing with Sandy Patti's affair. I was also surprised and
>shocked to see that none of the posts quoted a magazine, newspaper, TV
>show, etc. to give credibility to the fact. It just seemed to be
>a given that what was said in the first post was true.
>
>Forgive me for being a bit sceptical, but having been the first person
>to post a response to the intitial (and unsubstantiated) claim that
>Amy Grant was having an affair with Vince Gill, I'd like two or three
>people to give a reference...an article they read, a TV news program
>they saw...just something to give a little credibility to this post.
>Right now, it just looks like a huge rumor.
I saw a short article in the "Beaumont Enterprise" newspaper (of
Beaumont, Texas) on Saturday morning (Sept. 2, 1995).
The specifics, as retold on the newsgroup, perfectly match the details
given in the article. I don't think it's a rumor.
Will
Chuck Pearson
>As someone who has not had an opportunity to read the newsgroups over
>the Labor Day weekend, I was surprised and shocked to read the 20+
>posts dealing with Sandy Patti's affair. I was also surprised and
>shocked to see that none of the posts quoted a magazine, newspaper, TV
>show, etc. to give credibility to the fact. It just seemed to be
>a given that what was said in the first post was true.
thanks, jojo, for playing jerry ray to us. 8-)
the difference, i think, is that while grant's marriage is publicly rock-
solid and a role model for married couples everywhere (at least, the
media would have you believe so), patty's marriage went through a rather
public divorce, where both parties claimed it was the others' fault (and,
imho, sounded really disingenuous while doing so). ergo, such a
revelation might be plausible.
i suppose i've gone and started rumor-mongering again. 8-P i think
you'll find, however, that most of the thread's i've started with
relation to this post don't deal with any admission of an affair per se,
but rather the state of ccm in general that breeds such things that HAVE
been documented (c.f. michael english, c.f. mike warnke...)
Chuck Pearson
for Big Rock Stars to have e-mail?)
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu wrote in response to me:
>> but _bookaboom!_ is very fast growing on me. the question i have is, >> how do you describe the sound? it almost strikes me as=
surf pop, but >> not quite...space pop, maybe? (the album cover notwithstanding.)
>True I don't know ethier some of the songs almost have a punk sound to >it, I love the bonus track I think it's pretty cool,
that's a cover of the clash's "train in vain," if my memory with ed
rock's assistance serves. i could see the punk thing only a couple of
times, and even then it's really kinda borderline.
of course, we could quit trying to label it and just scream "IT'S JUST
AWESOME MUSIC, DUDE!!!" but then people would ask us "yeah, but WHAT IS
IT?", so...
>...still wondering why they dropped the manouver part from their name...
yeah, matt, why did you? the endless gags that came from manouver were
great...
why, in my hands right now i'm holding an old promo flyer from the _pick_
_it_up_ days, with this at the start:
"PICTURE THIS. you're sitting at the table with a friend, and suddenly,
without warning, they start turning purple. they can't breathe. they
can't swallow. something has lodged in their throat and they are looking
pleadingly to you, their friend, in need, for help. what do you do?
you do the heimlich maneuver - and save the day.
NEXT SCENARIO. you're watching your friend gag, only this time it's on
television preachers wearing toupees and diamonds; the guy that hit them
over the head with the bible the other day at school; and having to sit
through suffocating, stuffy sermons. christianity is making them choke,
and they're doomed. what do you do? you pop on a CD called PICK IT UP
and you crank it loud. suddenly, they can breathe again.
this time, it's the HOKUS PICK MANOUVER that saves the day."
okay, maybe it's just my weird sense of humor, but i think it's a riot...
so why, matt? why did you drop the manouver from the name?
Logan Shaw
<z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu> wrote:
>3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells me) so
>therefore she had obviously sought forgiveness and since she has sought
>therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible says)
Right, if she's repentant and has asked for forgiveness, she's forgiven.
Obviously, unless the confession was forced by the circumstances or unless
she had some kind of ulterior motive, she seems repentant.
>Finnally let's not let this thread get out of hand, it's simple everyone falls
>from grace what they do afterwards is important, I too have fallen though it
>was a small fall I got back with God, and am therefore forgiven, so now the
>story is acuytlaly a mute point.
^^^^
MOOT, MOOT, MOOT! It's a MOOT point, not a MUTE point!
Sorry, don't mean to bark at you and I know spelling flames are taboo, but
this is the possibly most irksome malapropism in existence[1], and this is
the second time I've seen it in less than a week[2].
- Logan
[1] Either that, or "prostate/prostrate", as in "my brother had
prostrate surgery last week". (Really, is he more humble now?)
[2] Although the other time, the speaker's native language was not
English, so it was forgivable.
--
=-- do not send me any junk e-mail --=
Logan Shaw
Jeffrey Parks <jpa...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <42fmt8$p...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Chuck Pearson <dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>..except in this regard: i do not believe the impact of artists like
>>patty on the church has been for the good. i believe they set up an
>>image of what christianity should be as all sweetness and light, and
>>lovey-lovey-doesn't-Jesus-make-us-happy-all-the-time? stuff. and that's
>>a lie of the same caliber of madonna's world-view (which, i hope, we
>>don't need to discuss).
>
>Well then, why aren't you thrilled that Sandi's life has taken a turn
>for the worst? What a glorious example of a more proper world-view.
Well, one could make the argument IF Sandi does have too rosy a picture of
life, that maybe God is allowing these events to happen to her so it will
come more in line with reality. Of course, to make that argument you'd
have to know that her view is/was out-of-whack, which is something between
her and God (mostly). Interestingly, when I was at her concert in Dallas
(yes, _I_ went to a Sandi Patty concert -- I was invited by a good friend
and it would have been rude to turn it down), she made a point to stop the
singing for a long period of time and talk about how she had been going
through some big struggles in the last few years, and how she had found
that it made her faith grow in new ways. I'd guess she was referring to
her collapsing marriage, so maybe my theory does have some validity.
>I could make the same argument about certain alternative
>music--those bands focus so much on the difficulties of life that they
>reinforce teenagers' belief that the world completely sucks. Therefore,
>because the world does not completely suck, those bands should not
>be allowed to make music. I suspect you wouldn't agree with this line
>of argument.
I wouldn't agree with that argument; I'd say (1) that it's not my place
to stop them from producing music, and (2) that although their music
probably does have some value, that doesn't mean that it's necessarily OK
for them to present an unbalanced view of life either.
And while I'm on this subject, I'd like to express my views of this whole
Sandi Patty thing. A while ago someone mentioned that Sandi hadn't
previously mentioned her affair, leading us to believe that she was the
innocent one in a nasty divorce situation. Now, I haven't been divorced
or even married (I haven't even had a truly serious girlfriend, but that's
another matter...), but the way I understand it is that, in the vast
majority of cases, both spouses carry a significant part of the blame for
the destruction of the marriage. And not only that, but if there is an
affair involved, it's usually a sign that there were marriage troubles
long before the affair happened (supposedly, people generally decide to
have an affair after they've given up hope to some extent on having their
needs satisfied by their spouse).
The point here is that we shouldn't now assume it was wholly her fault,
just as we shouldn't have assumed beforehand that she was wholly
innocent. A sub-point is possibly that the reason she may not have
mentioned the affair before is that she didn't view it as the main
point -- she probably saw the divorce as a much bigger issue. She
potentially might have been thinking of her ex-husband in not
mentioning it -- he certainly would not have enjoyed having it dragged
through the media, and the scandal probably wouldn't have helped what
was surely already a shaky situation.
So, there you have my two cents worth.
- Logan
Chuck Pearson
>I saw a short article in the "Beaumont Enterprise" newspaper (of
>Beaumont, Texas) on Saturday morning (Sept. 2, 1995).
>The specifics, as retold on the newsgroup, perfectly match the details
>given in the article. I don't think it's a rumor.
oh sure, as soon as i apologize for rumor-mongering...
thanks, will.
Ed Rock
> >again, macdonald has status in the
> >evangelical community because of his leadership experience and his
> >teaching gifts. sandi patty has status in the evangelical community
> >'cause she can move thousands of items of product with her name on it.
>
> But she couldn't do that if she didn't somehow inspire people.
Well, not saying that Patty in particular is guilty of this, but she
could quite easily do this by tickling itching ears, by selling a gospel
people want to hear. Any singer who wanted to tap into the market could
just come along with a message people like to hear and anesthetize their
audience to the true gospel. Again, this may or may not be the case with
this particular entertainer, but it would be quite possible.
Ed Rock | "Is it the winter of our discontent
aka Ed Crabtree | or just an early frost?"
ercr...@email.unc.edu | --Kevin Gilbert
Ed Rocks the Web http://ecsvax.uncecs.edu/~ecrab/
Ed Rock
> Chuck, what's the point here? And why are we questioning Sandi's
> motives? Maybe Sandi makes music because she likes it and it gives
> her joy and it fulfills the desires God has put in her heart. I
> don't know, to be honest, but I'd like to give her the benefit
> of the doubt. Besides, the same is true of Amy and I don't see any
> sane person getting upset about her sales figures.
Ahh, but actually, there is a difference. You see Amy has never set
herself up as a blemish free example of all Christianity can be. Amy has
never felt that she was "...not yet ready to resume her position of
leadership..." in the church--mainly because she never claimed any
position of leadership. Amy Grant claims to be a believer who openly
admits to her struggles with sin. She even chooses to write music about
those struggles. She doesn't set herself up as a shining example, she
sets herself up as the girl next door.
> >granted, but again, macdonald has gifts for teaching. having read
> >_private_world_, i've found it contains some very profound truth and some
> >very wise statements. i do not find teachings of the caliber of
> >macdonald in sandi patty's albums.
>
> My point, exactly. Sandi is not and has never aspired, as far as
> I know, to be a teacher. She's a singer.
That's not exactly how she views herself. Her wording was dangerously
close (if not word for word) to what I've quoted above. She did say she
was not yet ready to resume her position of leadership in the church--a
position I have never acknowledged.
David Tannen
of comments about this thread:
1. I have never listened to either Sandy Patti or Michael English's
music unless my wife was playing one of their albums. I am
not fond of their style of music - and that is purely a matter
of my taste not a comment about their talent.
2. It is not a rumor that Sandy Patti had an affair while she
was still married. This was reported in the Arizona Republic
newspaper on Sept 2 (morning edition). I can provide a full
quote if you want but I would have to dig through the
recycling trash bin to do that.
We do need to be careful about these kinds of rumors since they
can be very destructive. But if they are reported in a
reputable newspaper then I think we can pass along that
information.
3. As Christians we have a horrible habit of shooting our wounded.
Sandy Patti and Michael English are wounded soldiers for Christ,
they need to be lead to full repentance, forgiveness and
wholeness. It is my hope that their local congregations and
their pastors will do just that. As someone who has a had to
deal with many powerful and horrible sins I can say that it is
a very painful process. During that process I was not (and
should not) able to minister to anyone. I purposefully rejected
offers to be a member of our congregational council (elder)
because I was a wounded person in the process of healing.
IMO both Sandy Patti and Michael English should lay down their
music ministry (and music as a profession) and spend some time
healing. Both of them should have the money to do that. How
long should that healing take? I don't know but it took me
two years to be healed.
4. Having stated #3, there is an important issue here about what
is our response to the rise of "stars" in the Christian
sub-culture. As human beings we are easily lead into false
worship - it was our first sin and the first commandment that
God gave us to obey. We (Christians) have to understand that
our Western culture wants us to "worship" something other than
God. We are constantly flooded with images and words from
secular "stars" and we often want someone from our community
to fill that gap for us.
I think many folks who ardently "protect/guard" their favorite
Christian artist (theologian, church leader, speaker, organization)
should carefully examine their motivations. I know I have to
carefully examine my motivations when I defend my favorite
musicians, theologians, etc.
5. The Church (ie Body of Christ) needs to learn what it means to
be accountable to itself. How many of us have a Christian who
we confess our struggles to? Not many I would bet. How many
of us are afraid to be held accountable? Probably most of us.
A "story" about someone who takes accountablity seriously:
One night after a crusade Billy Graham went to climb
into his limo. Upon entering he saw a beautiful woman
in the back set wearing nothing but some lingere. Graham
immediately lept out of the limo and started running down
the street. I don't know how or what the woman was doing
in the limo or what happened to her.
Now where-ever Graham goes a number of men enter and
search hotel rooms to make sure that nothing has been
"left/planted" that might tempt him.
Graham is holding himself accountable to others.
How many pastors, bishops, elders and Christian "stars" can
claim that they are being held accountable by someone? I know
of quite a few TV-preachers who have stated that they are only
accountable to God. This is clearly a mistake.
We can all learn from these incidents, but to learn from them will
require reading/studying our Bibles and then applying what we learn
to ourselves first. This is a painful process but a necessary process
if we truly want to be sanctified by our Lord.
An ambassador for Christ,
David Tannen (tan...@dudley.geg.mot.com)
Motorola, Scottsdale (602) 441-7879 m/s H1119
Member of TCCCS/Iris, People Champions, TeamAda, and TeamOS/2
Christian Acronyms: B.I.B.L.E.=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
David Tannen
> Yes, we are all human, and we all sin. But the Church needs to be wary
>of constructing situations (like the CCM industry) which breed sin and
>hypocrisy by their very nature,with few if any safeguards. As I've posted
>elsewhere, I think that we are all responsible for thrusting people into
>situations where for which they are not spiritually prepared, merely out
>of our own desire to be "entertained" and "inspired."
I have to agree with you about the idea that many of us want to be
entertained and inspired. We need to balance our lives a little bit
better.
How many people spend regular time (and how much) in Bible Study?
How many people spend regular time (and how much) in devotional time?
How many people spend regular time (and how much) in prayer?
How many people spend regular time (and how much) listening to music?
As for myself - guilty of not being regular and in depth in my Bible
Study, devotional or prayer time. We all want to be entertained and
inspired but to really live out a Christian walk means picking up our
cross and living with that cross faithfully. To have that kind of walk
means that we will rarely be inspired or entertained.
Ed Rock
> Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> >Ahh, but actually, there is a difference. You see Amy has never set
> >herself up as a blemish free example of all Christianity can be.
>
> Ed, you clearly have followed Sandi's career closer than I have, but
> I have real trouble believing that Sandi ever claimed this. That would
> be outrageous. And even if she did, how do her sales figures affect
> this whole thing?
Actually, I am much more likely to follow Amy Grant's career than Patty's.
I don't actually think that was necessarily Patty's goal--to set up an
image of being a blemish free example--but there are too many ccm artists
who do set themselves up like this. That's why record company's drop
artists or withhold their Christmas album's release. The artist probably
doesn't set out to create this image, but they have to live up to it--or
lose their job. It's like the idea that a preahcer doesn't sin. It's
bogus. Of course preachers sin. If Jesus was tempted as we are, aren't
preachers as well?
As for sales figures affecting the whole thing, I am somehat unclear as
to what you are asking. As a market folks have bought into the idea that
Christian entertainers are above sin. The original poster asked if there
was anyone who couldn't fall into sin. That question is what keeps the
industry setting up these images of sinlessness--the idea that these
folks somehow have life more together than the rest of us. Did I get
close to explaining myself?
> >Amy has
> >never felt that she was "...not yet ready to resume her position of
> >leadership..." in the church--mainly because she never claimed any
> >position of leadership. Amy Grant claims to be a believer who openly
> >admits to her struggles with sin. She even chooses to write music about
> >those struggles. She doesn't set herself up as a shining example, she
> >sets herself up as the girl next door.
>
> Well now I'm going to put the shoe on the other foot. How about some
> documentation here?
Gosh, I wish I had kept an archive of stuff I never thought I'd need,
alas, I did not. I can tell you around the time that it happened and the
situation where Patty says that she is not ready to resume her position
of leadership in the church. It was probably this spring, when she
cancelled her tour with either Newsong or 4-Him. As I recall, it ws a
press release that was actually posted on rmc. I think I remember who
posted it, but I may be wrong. I'll check. If anyone else remembers
this quote and can document it for Mr. Parks, I'd be appreciative.
> Again, my impression of Sandi is she never felt
> called to be a teacher; she was just a singer.
That may have been true earlier on, but this spring's press release
definitely didn't reinforce that idea.
> Yes, an awfully good
> singer who won bunches of awards and inspired a whole bunch of people,
> but still a singer. And even if that above quote is true, I'd like to
> see the context. I could easily see it being a response to the question,
> "So how come you don't move into teaching?" or something like that. Then
> her response would fit in well with my understanding of her.
Again, I have no reason at all to twist the woman's words. I own two
cd's by her, both bought used or at store closings at tremendous
discounts and only for one song each. I wouldn't be considered a fan,
but I distinctly remember the press release from this decision to cancel
the tour. I remember being slightly perturbed by her wording--mainly
because I don't recall MOR Singers as being a leadership postion
mentioned in the Bible.
> Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, Ed. I just want more than your
> off-handed recollection. You're making a pretty serious charge.
Stating that someone said they were in a position of leadership in the
Church is a serious charge? That's rather new to me.
Jeffrey Parks
Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>Well, not saying that Patty in particular is guilty of this, but she
>could quite easily do this by tickling itching ears, by selling a gospel
>people want to hear. Any singer who wanted to tap into the market could
>just come along with a message people like to hear and anesthetize their
>audience to the true gospel. Again, this may or may not be the case with
>this particular entertainer, but it would be quite possible.
I agree with this in the abstract, but are you saying Sandi is guilty of
this? If so, lyrics or interviews would be helpful. If you're just
generalizing, well I certainly agree.
J Robert
Chuck Pearson
>> Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, Ed. I just want more than your
>> off-handed recollection. You're making a pretty serious charge.
>
>Stating that someone said they were in a position of leadership in the
>Church is a serious charge? That's rather new to me.
it is when someone is basing their position of leadership on something
that isn't scriptural.
add my voice to mr. parks'...i half want to say that i'd like to see that
patty herself actually thought herself a leader in the church, but i've
been dangling at the very edge of being gleeful at her downfall, and it
would be very bad news to fall in (to gleefulness, that is...)
i pro'lly need out of this thread, really.
J. Streck
>Forgive me for being a bit sceptical, but having been the first person
>to post a response to the intitial (and unsubstantiated) claim that
>Amy Grant was having an affair with Vince Gill, I'd like two or three
>people to give a reference...an article they read, a TV news program
>they saw...just something to give a little credibility to this post.
>Right now, it just looks like a huge rumor.
Well, here are the relevant passages from a story that appeared in the
Iowa Press-Citizen on 9/2/95. The story came from the AP wire:
"...Patti admitted having an extramarital affair with the backup singer
she just married.
Patti, 39, who holds five Grammy awards, said the affair began in
1991, about 17 months before her divorce from then-manager John
Helvering. She and Don Peslis, 34, married on August 6..."
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
z_mcp...@titan.sfasu.edu
>
> ---
> "wide-eyed wonder girl, staring into the sky, wondering why it's a good,
> great world, but it turns around, never mind the ground..." - the choir
> (dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state is chuck pearson, father of a little
> wide-eyed wonder of his own, amelia catherine pearson.)
>
>
is the lyrics are so hard to read in the CD inlet, I also love how their
writing has matured, Now if they would only tour in ethier Houston or
Longview(wink, wink, hint hint nudge nudge). I gotta admite I still have an
urge to go completely nuts when I play "Simple Song" really loud that and an
urge to go on a frenzy when I hear I.G.Y.F.T.C.H. ahh great stuff.
--Mark
...'I'm writing letters in my head about the things I should have said'...
Ed Rock
> I agree with this in the abstract, but are you saying Sandi is guilty of
> this? If so, lyrics or interviews would be helpful. If you're just
> generalizing, well I certainly agree.
Yes, I was generalizing in response to the conversation at the time. I
do think that some of what we call harmless or even benficial in
mainstream ccm music, though, is infact, an anesthetization (zat a
word?). I think it serves to give people a faux sense of security, a
religious experience, that prevents them from going on to real truth of
Christianity. It's something the industry sells BIG TIME. If we were to
get beyond that, the industry would miss some bucks, so they're not
telling. They're selling.
Ed Rock
> And while I'm on this subject, I'd like to express my views of this whole
> Sandi Patty thing. A while ago someone mentioned that Sandi hadn't
> previously mentioned her affair, leading us to believe that she was the
> innocent one in a nasty divorce situation. Now, I haven't been divorced
> or even married (I haven't even had a truly serious girlfriend, but that's
> another matter...), but the way I understand it is that, in the vast
> majority of cases, both spouses carry a significant part of the blame for
> the destruction of the marriage. And not only that, but if there is an
> affair involved, it's usually a sign that there were marriage troubles
> long before the affair happened (supposedly, people generally decide to
> have an affair after they've given up hope to some extent on having their
> needs satisfied by their spouse).
While looking through my e-archives to find independent verification of
the statement Patty made in regard to her positon of leadership in the
church, I did find this piece that Ross Morley posted back in May. I
found it to be applicable in this case.
> |> Reproduced without from USA Today. Monday August 3 1992
> |>
> |> John Helvering, estranged husband of gospel superstar Sandi Patti,
> |> says he still loves his wife, is confused by the reasons for their
> |> split and wants Patti back.
> |>
> |> "I've always conducted myself honorabley in our marriage, and I want
> |> to work toward reconciliations." says Helvering, who has been married to
> |> his college sweetheart Patti, 36, for 13 years and managed her career
> |> until their troubles escalated.
> |> She filed for divorce on June 9 and has moved out of the couple's home
> |> in Anderson, Ind. They're sharing custody of their four kids, ages
> |> 2 1/2 to 8.
> |> Helvering says he's not sure what caused their split. She has told him
> |> she doesn't have the emotional "energy" to continue their relationship,
> |> he says. "It all came up very, very suddenly. It startled me that there
> |> was that much of a problem in Sandi's mind.
> |>
> |> "There's never been a question of fidelity on my part. I have never
> |> even looked at another woman. I have not done any kinds of abuse."
> |> Contrary to speculation, he says their business partnership
> |> is not the root of the maritial problem. He, "didn't push her too much,"
> |> he says, and she took 1 1/2 years off from touring to spend more
> |> time at home. He was phasing himself out of the business "to avoid
> |> having more tension."
> |> But there has been a lot of stress in their lives in the last few
> |> years. Their office building burned down and their son had brain
> |> surgery after a coat rack at home fell on his head.
> |> The couple has been in maritial counseling; Helvering is still in
> |> therapy. As a Christian, he says he believes "marriage is for life.
> |> There are going to be problems, and you have to deal with those problems."
> |> He says their kids have handled things as well as can be expected
> |> but this is something "kids shouldn't be expected to go through."
> |> If the divorce goes through, they'll split the property 50-50,
> |> he says. The two were co-owners of the business.
> |> Patti has said there is no chance of reconciliation.
> |> -- Nanci Hellmich
Yeah, it's John Helvering's viewpoint. Yeah, it takes two to tango.
Yeah, this has been filtered through the press. So take it with the
necessary seasoning. ;-)
Jeffrey Parks
>herself up as a blemish free example of all Christianity can be.
Ed, you clearly have followed Sandi's career closer than I have, but
I have real trouble believing that Sandi ever claimed this. That would
be outrageous. And even if she did, how do her sales figures affect
this whole thing?
>Amy has
>never felt that she was "...not yet ready to resume her position of
>leadership..." in the church--mainly because she never claimed any
>position of leadership. Amy Grant claims to be a believer who openly
>admits to her struggles with sin. She even chooses to write music about
>those struggles. She doesn't set herself up as a shining example, she
>sets herself up as the girl next door.
Well now I'm going to put the shoe on the other foot. How about some
documentation here? Again, my impression of Sandi is she never felt
called to be a teacher; she was just a singer. Yes, an awfully good
singer who won bunches of awards and inspired a whole bunch of people,
but still a singer. And even if that above quote is true, I'd like to
see the context. I could easily see it being a response to the question,
"So how come you don't move into teaching?" or something like that. Then
her response would fit in well with my understanding of her.
Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, Ed. I just want more than your
off-handed recollection. You're making a pretty serious charge.
J Robert
Ed Rock
> On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Jeffrey Parks wrote:
> > Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> > >Ahh, but actually, there is a difference. You see Amy has never set
> > >herself up as a blemish free example of all Christianity can be.
> >
> > Ed, you clearly have followed Sandi's career closer than I have, but
> > I have real trouble believing that Sandi ever claimed this. That would
> > be outrageous. And even if she did, how do her sales figures affect
> > this whole thing?
>
> Actually, I am much more likely to follow Amy Grant's career than Patty's.
J. Robert, I'm still looking for the information you asked for, but in
doing so, I ran across this quote on the Sony Music Sandi Patty page
(http://www.sony.com/Music/ArtistInfo/SandiPatty_LeVoyage.html):
"I looked like I had it all together," Patty admits. "Not
that what I've shared in the past hasn't been me...but I've
unintentionally given a sort of a fairytale portrayal of my
life."
> I don't actually think that was necessarily Patty's goal--to set up an
> image of being a blemish free example...
I now continue the search for the quote I never thought I'd need again...
Ed Rock
> Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote in response to J Robert:
>
> >> Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, Ed. I just want more than your
> >> off-handed recollection. You're making a pretty serious charge.
> >
> >Stating that someone said they were in a position of leadership in the
> >Church is a serious charge? That's rather new to me.
>
> it is when someone is basing their position of leadership on something
> that isn't scriptural.
>
> add my voice to mr. parks'...i half want to say that i'd like to see that
> patty herself actually thought herself a leader in the church, but i've
> been dangling at the very edge of being gleeful at her downfall, and it
> would be very bad news to fall in (to gleefulness, that is...)
Yes guys, my whole goal in life is to make up lies about some ac singer I
can live with and certainly can live without. I didn't realize I needed
to keep an archive of every press release that finds its way onto rmc.
Guess I was wrong. It wasn't the first time. It won't be the last.
Login for Mike Grello
|> > Yes, we are all human, and we all sin. But the Church needs to be wary
|> >of constructing situations (like the CCM industry) which breed sin and
|> >hypocrisy by their very nature,with few if any safeguards. As I've posted
|> >elsewhere, I think that we are all responsible for thrusting people into
|> >situations where for which they are not spiritually prepared, merely out
|> >of our own desire to be "entertained" and "inspired."
|>
|> I have to agree with you about the idea that many of us want to be
|> entertained and inspired. We need to balance our lives a little bit
|> better.
|>
|> How many people spend regular time (and how much) in Bible Study?
|> How many people spend regular time (and how much) in devotional time?
|> How many people spend regular time (and how much) in prayer?
|> How many people spend regular time (and how much) listening to music?
|>
|> As for myself - guilty of not being regular and in depth in my Bible
|> Study, devotional or prayer time. We all want to be entertained and
|> inspired but to really live out a Christian walk means picking up our
|> cross and living with that cross faithfully. To have that kind of walk
|> means that we will rarely be inspired or entertained.
Au Contrair. God has not called us to a life of drudgery, but joy. There
is nothing implicit in cross-carrying that states "we will rarely be inspired
or entertained" (though it may be argued that we will find the task neither
of these, I don't fully agree with that either, however). The advantage of
accepting Christ long before death is that you can walk in his joy for that
much longer. I have been a Christian for a pretty long time, read a lot of
Scripture, spend lots of time in prayer and devotion (please forgive me, I
am not trying to boast but to work up to my point), and every time I open
the word, everytime I stand before the throne (ok, probably not EVERY time),
I find something new, something I had not even considered before. Man, if
you ain't inspired, and your walk doesn't do at least one thing a day to
tickle you, find the reason and fix it! You're only gettin' half the ride
HE paid for! Though, I agree with yourself and the original poster that we
have no right to negatively impact the walk of others by thrusting them into
leadership too early. I, too, have fallen, by the way. And like, who was
it(?), Obadiahs wife, I am filled with joy and love and gratitiude that God
was willing to reach down into the gutter, after he had already done it once
before, after I had dragged His name and His love through the mud, and wash
off ALL the dirt, and wipe the tears from my eye and call me Hepzibah (sp).
(by yhr way , I'm not sure how Obadiahs wife felt about the whole thing, just
that she had been a harlot, married Obadiah [I hope I have the right person],
then went back to that life and Obadiah looked for her and took her back
home as his wife). Correct me if it was one of the other prophets I am
thinking of (though I shall no doubt look this up when i get home).
God Bless You,
Mike
Jeffrey Parks
>jpa...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey Parks) wrote:
>
>>To make a comparison, think of Gordon MacDonald, the guy who wrote
>>Ordering Your Private World. Turns out he also had an affair. Does his
>>affair suddenly make his book worthless? Hardly. The truth he spoke in
>>that book is still truth.
>
>There are two enormous differences:
>
>1) _Ordering Your Private World_ is a self-help book on organizational
>skills written from a Christian perspective. I wouldn't discount a
>book by a Christian on how to keep my VW Bug alive if I found out he
>was having an affair while writing *it,* either.
I don't see how this is a difference. My point is that Sandi's
worship songs are still valid as worship songs just as MacDonald's
book is still valid as a book. The sin doesn't change the truth of
what's presented.
>2) MacDonald confessed of his own accord, without any history of
>attempts to hide the truth, and resigned from IVF.
Yes, this is where my comparison breaks down. I was hoping no one
would bring it up. ;-) But, seriously, my response to your first
distinction is still valid despite the truth of your second one.
At least I think so.
J Robert
V-X
> Yes, we are all human, and we all sin. But the Church needs to be wary
>of constructing situations (like the CCM industry) which breed sin and
>hypocrisy by their very nature,with few if any safeguards.
This is sort of true, but what really needs to happen is that people
need to realize that the CCM industry is just that, and not a
parachurch organization--a misunderstanding that I believe the
industry likes to promote.
__________________________________________________________________
It's V-X!!!
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://dig.netcentral.net/vx
---------------I am the Jerry Garcia of Tagamet.------------------
V-X
>Allright we get through with M. Knott and now cause were bored wqe decide it's
>time to pick on Sandi Pati
>A few points
>1. Yes she had an affair
>2. She admitted to it
>3. Obviously she is till putting out Christian Music(good my g/f tells me) so
>therefore she had obviously sought forgiveness and since she has sought
>therefore is forgiven(no I'm no priest but that's what the Bible says)
I believe that people's anger is, and rightly so, directed toward Ms.
Patti for lying to them. What they do with that anger, you and I both
might take issue with, but you're misplacing the object of their anger
when you insiuate that she's being persecuted here for her sin.
And if you think that "still putting out Christian Music" is an
indicator of repentance, I won't even try to argue with you.
V-X
>To make a comparison, think of Gordon MacDonald, the guy who wrote
>Ordering Your Private World. Turns out he also had an affair. Does his
>affair suddenly make his book worthless? Hardly. The truth he spoke in
>that book is still truth.
There are two enormous differences:
1) _Ordering Your Private World_ is a self-help book on organizational
skills written from a Christian perspective. I wouldn't discount a
book by a Christian on how to keep my VW Bug alive if I found out he
was having an affair while writing *it,* either.
2) MacDonald confessed of his own accord, without any history of
attempts to hide the truth, and resigned from IVF.
I *am* mad at Gordon MacDonald, though, because they always fill up
the "G. MacDonald" section with his books and have no room for any of
George MacDonald. (Well, except for those romance novels he wrote to
feed his kids...)
Logan Shaw
>jpa...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey Parks) wrote:
>attempts to hide the truth, and resigned from IVF.
Now, _this_ is an interesting point. Lots of people here in r.m.c (and
elsewhere) think that no one particular sin is worse than others, i.e.
that all sins are equally wrong.
If so, sexual sins (i.e. adultery) wouldn't be any worse than (for
example) telling a lie. Why is it, then, that we find it admirable if a
person in a position of leadership resigns after committing a "big" sin
which is essentially unrelated to their work? (I don't know the story
personally, but MacDonald sounds like an example of this. Michael English
probably is too.) If they were caught lying to a friend about something,
surely they wouldn't resign.
This hardly seems consistent. Both are sins. Both are hypothetically
"just as wrong" as each other. So, why react differently to each one? Is
there any reason I've overlooked why adultery would affect someone's
ability to write books or make music more than telling a lie would?
If you are repentant, it would seem that all you've proved by screwing up
is that we're all human, and none of us is safe from falling. But that is
a vital part of the Christian experience. Probably it would benefit some
of us (if the person in question were in an position to express themselves
through a form of art) to hear how their process of healing and renewal
makes them grow in their faith.
Actually, I can think of a few possible reasons why we would react
differently to adultery than to lying:
1. we don't agree that all sins are equally wrong.
2. some of us Christians are too uptight about sex.
3. we don't understand about forgiveness engouh to act like
someone who has asked for forgiveness is really forgiven.
4. we feel vindicated if a "bad" person suffers consequences for
their actions (even if those consequences are inappropriate).
Jeffrey Parks
Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>Yes guys, my whole goal in life is to make up lies about some ac singer I
>can live with and certainly can live without. I didn't realize I needed
>to keep an archive of every press release that finds its way onto rmc.
>Guess I was wrong. It wasn't the first time. It won't be the last.
Ed, no need to be defensive. I endeavored not to make it a personal
thing. I just figured that if we were going to hold other people
to that standard (ala the Larry Norman, Mike Knott, Prayer Chain
threads), we should do the same. And also while it certainly isn't your
main purpose in life, your antagonism to inspirational music is well-known.
And, to be honest, I didn't expect you to have it archived nor did I
expect you to locate it. If you do, that's great. If not, then we
can put this thread to bed agreeing to disagree. I've actually been
pleased with both the tone of the discussion and the substance of
what's gone out. It's made me think which isn't something I can say
for a lot of rmc these days. Ooops. I'm whining. I guess I'll go now.
J Robert
David Tannen
>I don't actually think that was necessarily Sandy Patti's goal--to set up an
>image of being a blemish free example--but there are too many ccm artists
>who do set themselves up like this. That's why record company's drop
>artists or withhold their Christmas album's release. The artist probably
>doesn't set out to create this image, but they have to live up to it--or
>lose their job. It's like the idea that a preahcer doesn't sin. It's
>bogus. Of course preachers sin. If Jesus was tempted as we are, aren't
>preachers as well?
Well I think there are Biblical principles involved in this case
and in the case of all people who are leaders within the Christian
community. Being a Christian singer producing Christian music for the
purpose of inspiring, lifting up and edifying the Body of Christ *is* a
leadership position. Paul and James taught that leaders within the
Church must be above reproach.
I stated in another post what I think Sandy Patti should do:
1. Leave the music industry and spend a lot of time
dealing with this sin. Christian counselling
would be appropriate and highly recommended.
2. Stay away from any leadership positions (singing in
a local choir, or providing public support to any
ministries). She needs healing and that only
happens when we withdraw from the responsiblities
of leadership and examine ourselves in the same
way God does when He examines our sinfulness
(if you don't know what that means read
*Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God* or
*The Holiness of God* by RC Sproul).
Whether or not Sandy Patti planned on being a leader within the
Christian movement or not, her public life *made* her a leader within
the Christian community. I would hope that every Christian member of
the CCM industry would understand this.
Obviously people in the Christian Contempory Music Industry don't
understand that.
For instance if our choir director or other worship leader was found
to be in a blatant sin (adultery for instance) I am very sure our
congregational council and pastor would remove them from their
leadership position.
If our pastor was found to be involved in a blatant sin (adultery for
instance) I am sure he would be asked to step down as pastor of the
congregation. I know that it is policy that any pastor who is going
through a divorce in the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America is
required to tender their resignation to the congregation. Where this
has happened many congregations place the pastor on temporary leave of
absense and bring in a temporary pastor. Often after the divorce is
final and some kind of counselling has been completed the pastor will
be reinstated. (Our current pastor was divorced once many years ago,
so we do not look at divorce as the unpardonable sin.)
I am not a fool - I know that Christian sin. But as a Christian I
expect that we should be forthright about our sin. We should
confess our sin. We should do actual penance for our sin. We should
be prepared to pay for the consequences for our sin.
As Paul wrote in Romans 6:11-18
"In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to
God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal
body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of
your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer
yourselves to God, as those who have een brought from death to life;
and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of
righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are
not under law, but under grace."
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but
under grace? By no means? Don't you know that when you offer
yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the
one whom you obey-whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to
death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks
be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you
wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were
entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become
slaves to righteousness."
Or what as Jesus taught in John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."
Being a Christian means living at a higher ethical and moral standard
than *everyone* around us. Being a Christian leader means being
held to an even higher standard and being prepared to accept the
consequences of not meeting those standards. We can not do this
unless we live faithfully and those who are in Christian leadership
positions need to have the faith to match their talents.
Margaret Vitalis
Ed,
I know what you're talking about. There was a press release when Sandi
cancelled her tour with 4Him. I remember reading something about it in
CCM mag, and I also remember her saying something about not being ready to
assume a position of leadership. Are you still looking for this?? I'm
sure I could probably find the exact article. I'll look for it tonight
and then post it tomorrow if you're still looking for it.
Jeffrey Parks
Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Jeffrey Parks wrote:
>I don't actually think that was necessarily Patty's goal--to set up an
>image of being a blemish free example--but there are too many ccm artists
>who do set themselves up like this. That's why record company's drop
>artists or withhold their Christmas album's release. The artist probably
>doesn't set out to create this image, but they have to live up to it--or
>lose their job. It's like the idea that a preahcer doesn't sin. It's
>bogus. Of course preachers sin. If Jesus was tempted as we are, aren't
>preachers as well?
Ed, I agree with all of this. And yes I think it's a problem which needs
to be addressed.
>As for sales figures affecting the whole thing, I am somehat unclear as
>to what you are asking.
My original comparison with Amy was in response to Chuck's invoking
of Sandi's sales figures. It was a fairly narrow argument, admittedly.
>As a market folks have bought into the idea that
>Christian entertainers are above sin. The original poster asked if there
>was anyone who couldn't fall into sin. That question is what keeps the
>industry setting up these images of sinlessness--the idea that these
>folks somehow have life more together than the rest of us. Did I get
>close to explaining myself?
Yep. And we are in agreement.
>Again, I have no reason at all to twist the woman's words.
No, I understand that you don't. But my experience in this group
has been that you clearly have a problem with much of inspirational
CCM. I know that when I have a pet peeve, I often see relatively
harmless things in a more extreme light. I'm not saying that you
were doing that, but I also believe it's possible. That's why I
wanted to see the documentation.
And this gets to the rub of why I entered this thread in the first
place. As I have said many times in this group, I think there are
some real problems with the industry. However, I'm uncomfortable
with one person, namely Sandi, having to shoulder all the blame for
what is an industry-wide problem. But through the years, both in the
larger CCM world and now in rmc, I've seen people take out their
frustrations on her. That's what I was responding to.
J Robert
Kirsten J Skelly
Perhaps it is worth considering that a definition of entertainment may vary from person to person. If one is considering
"entertainment" to be what some college students I know consider it to be (getting drunk, high and laid) then perhaps
"entertainment" would be rare in the Christian walk. I however find reading a good C.S. Lewis book or listening to CCM
music highly entertaining, and these things perhaps further my walk with God. In my short Christian life I have found
balance is very important. Life is neither all entertainment nor all "drudgery" as the above author puts it. Just a few
thoughts for the minute...
Kirsten
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He's more than the laughter, or the stars in the heavens,
As close as a heartbeat or a song on our lips,
Someday we'll trust Him, and learn how to see Him,
Someday he'll call us, and we will come running,
And fall in His arms, and the tears will fall down,
and we'll pray,
"I want to fall in love with you.""
Jars of Clay, "Love Song for a Savior"
--
Kirsten S.
ara...@iastate.edu
Thom Schultz
*****************************************
MinistryNet........Gathering Ideas, Connecting Friends*
*****************************************
Mighty CheefDan![tm]
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (J. Streck) wrote:
>"...Patti admitted having an extramarital affair with the backup singer
>she just married.
Gives a whole new meaning to "backup singer", eh?
V-X
>In article <42jf4v$g...@maureen.teleport.com>, V-X <v...@teleport.com> wrote:
>>jpa...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey Parks) wrote:
>>1) _Ordering Your Private World_ is a self-help book on organizational
>>skills written from a Christian perspective. I wouldn't discount a
>>book by a Christian on how to keep my VW Bug alive if I found out he
>>was having an affair while writing *it,* either.
>I don't see how this is a difference. My point is that Sandi's
>worship songs are still valid as worship songs just as MacDonald's
>book is still valid as a book. The sin doesn't change the truth of
>what's presented.
I tend to think otherwise, but I don't know that I'm right and you're
wrong, and wouldn't be shattered if the opposite turned out to be
true...
Ed Rock
> One thing about these sorts of conversations that always strikes my
> attention -- particularly in regard to the stark distinctions that are
> made between the alternorockers and the AC mainstream (or Amy Grant v.
> Sandi Patty) -- is that they assume the artists have a lot more control
> over the ccm vision than I believe is warranted. The problem, in my
> opinion, isn't with the artists, whatever their stylistic leanings and
> whatever their approach to the ministry issue, but with the system -- that
> is, the Christian music industry itself. I've said it here before, but I
> think this thing largely runs on autopilot. The artists know what to say
> in the interviews, the producers know what the albums need to sound like,
> and the DJs know what to play on the radio.
I tend to agree with you for the most part. I still see Amy Grant as
somehow different. SHe is always answering the questions in interviews
the "wrong" way--telling what she thinks--no matter what it may mean for
her career. Maybe that too is a ploy, but it must be incredibly
engineered. I mean, in the interviews I've read, I'm always going wow, I
can't believe she said that or nearly as often, omigosh, I can't believe
she said that--they'll crucify her. Her honesty in admitting her faults
doesn't seem to be in keeping with the ccm industry autopilot career
management strategy. Maybe this helps her in the mainstream market, but
it seems to hurt her in the ccm market (which is fine with me).
Ed Rock
> Whether or not Sandy Patti planned on being a leader within the
> Christian movement or not, her public life *made* her a leader within
> the Christian community. I would hope that every Christian member of
> the CCM industry would understand this.
>
> Obviously people in the Christian Contempory Music Industry don't
> understand that.
No, I'm afraid it's the other way around. The ccm industry sees every
Christian who carries a guitar to be a minister. In as much as we all
all called to ministry, this is true. As far as a public ministry, I
don't see any basis that just because you are have a public persona, you
also have a public ministry.
Shari Lloyd
(Jeffrey Parks) writes:
>
>In article
<Pine.A32.3.91.950905...@login1.isis.unc.edu>,
>Ed Rock <ercr...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
>>Yes guys, my whole goal in life is to make up lies about some ac
singer I
>>can live with and certainly can live without. I didn't realize I
needed
>>to keep an archive of every press release that finds its way onto
rmc.
from CCM Magazine - Feb 1995 issue Pg 18
"Word recording artist Sandi Patty has pulled out of her upcoming
tour...In an open letter to industry newletter 'The CCM Update', Patty
explained, "Although it seemed like the right step to go back on the
road and I began making plans to do so, I have felt god's leading on my
heart that this is not the time, and I know that I am not ready to go
on tour."
Patty's letter was submitted in early December as she finished up the
final dates on 1994's Young Messiah Tour. "I feel for me that I need
to do some more healing before I can take a place of spiritual
leadership in ministry," she stated....As far as positions of
leadership are concerned, I feel it necessary to withdraw for a period
of time."...other reasons for canceling the tour seem to involve
personal issues as well. "I know that there have been decisions and
choices that I have made in my life, especially when it comes to
relationships, that have greatly hurt the name of the Lord and the
cause of his people," she stated. "As I continue to grow daily in the
Lord, the far reaching effects of my wrong and sinful choices also
continue to be made evident to me, and my heart is deeply grieved. I
have caused many people a great deal of pain in my life. I can only
publically and privately seek their forgivness, which I believe I have
done."
Shari Lloyd
Will McDonald
I am forced to agree with Ed on this point. I am actually not a big
Amy Grant fan (I haven't purchased a album since Unguarded!), but I AM
a big fan of her candor in interviews. I always feel like I am getting
the truth from her when she speaks. She has had to face a lot of
undeserved criticism for some things that she has said (especially some
things that have been taken out of context) and she has handled herself
very well.
As far as I can tell, Amy Grant is a model of honesty that we would do
well to emulate.
Not a starry-eyed Amy fan,
Will
Matthew C. Laswell
> On 7 Sep 1995, J. Streck wrote:
> > One thing about these sorts of conversations that always strikes my
> > attention -- particularly in regard to the stark distinctions that are
> > made between the alternorockers and the AC mainstream (or Amy Grant v.
> > Sandi Patty) -- is that they assume the artists have a lot more control
> > over the ccm vision than I believe is warranted. The problem, in my
> > opinion, isn't with the artists, whatever their stylistic leanings and
> > whatever their approach to the ministry issue, but with the system -- that
> > is, the Christian music industry itself. I've said it here before, but I
> > think this thing largely runs on autopilot. The artists know what to say
> > in the interviews, the producers know what the albums need to sound like,
> > and the DJs know what to play on the radio.
> I tend to agree with you for the most part. I still see Amy Grant as
> somehow different. SHe is always answering the questions in interviews
> the "wrong" way--telling what she thinks--no matter what it may mean for
> her career. Maybe that too is a ploy, but it must be incredibly
> engineered. I mean, in the interviews I've read, I'm always going wow, I
> can't believe she said that or nearly as often, omigosh, I can't believe
> she said that--they'll crucify her. Her honesty in admitting her faults
> doesn't seem to be in keeping with the ccm industry autopilot career
> management strategy. Maybe this helps her in the mainstream market, but
> it seems to hurt her in the ccm market (which is fine with me).
I have to agree with Ed on this one. I'm not a huge Amy Grant fan, but enjoy
a good bit of her music. The interviews I've heard from her have absolutely
amazed me - not simply that she is as honest as she is, but that her
honest answers haven't gotten her in more trouble than they have (perhaps
because the people most likely to react poorly have already written her off?).
J. Robert is quite right about the self-perpetuating nature of CCM as a
social phenomenon. Some stuff I've been reading suggests that an intuitive
approach to most things is typical of 20th century American evangelicals
in general (e.g. the vast, vast majority of CCM artists as far as I can tell).
In other words, lots and lots of Christians are not in the practice of
thinking deeply about issues from a solid theological base. The result -
lots of people listen uncritically to whatever lyrics a christian artist
puts out, regardless of the implications (thus, Mylon and Broken Heart can
have a big hit with "Shower the People" but don't even think about requesting
the original James Taylor version from your local CCM station, for example).
Given this, though, I still think it behooves anyone who wants to produce
"christian" music to think more deeply about these issues. This is where
I disagree with J. Robert's original point - the artist ultimately is the
one putting the tracks down and has some freedom (yes, with large boundaries -
c.f. Roe, Michael; Phillips, Leslie) in what they say. Amy Grant did
"Faithless Heart" after all. Doesn't this (limited) freedom imply some
(limited) responsibility?
Just thoughts (and rambling ones that that!).
- matt l.
mat...@comm.mot.com
Not the opinion of Motorola, Inc.
David Tannen
concerning entertainment and inspiration I would like to make a few
additional comments.
I wrote:
|> |> inspired but to really live out a Christian walk means picking up our
|> |> cross and living with that cross faithfully. To have that kind of walk
|> |> means that we will rarely be inspired or entertained.
This is actually an overstatement of my position - my apologies.
Let me try and make my point a little more clearly. In America (and the
West in general) we live in a culture that demands instant gratification
and a lifestyle where we are not bother by the unpleasent/unsightly
problems of this world.
A few of examples of this are:
1. Multi-billion dollar entertainment industry (movies, tv, music, and all
sorts of amusements for the senses) that entices members of our culture
to spend time and money on what they sell. This industry provides us
with instant gratification at a mind numbing pace. Is it the industries
fault? Not really since most of humanity wants to stop thinking the moment
they can do so. If you don't believe me ask someone who watches a lot of
tv why they don't spend time reading a book or doing something that is
"self" entertaining. I am willing to bet they will tell you that they
worked hard all day and don't want to spend anymore time thinking.
2. NIMBY syndrome is ever on the rise and is evolving into a balkanization
of our society. I read this week that the number of "walled-closed"
communities is on the rise. These communities use to only have the super
rich in them, but now they are starting to be designed and marketed to middle
and upper middle class families. And why do people move to these places?
The article stated that the underlying reasons were many but one reason was
the fact that these folks don't like sending tax $ to people whom they don't.
They don't want to be bothered with the problems of "those other people" out
there - let them fix their own problems.
In Washington DC there was a concentrated effort by a number of neighborhoods
to close down church run soup kitchens, homeless shelters and a 1/2 way house
for former drug addicts. These organizations had fantastic track records
with helping people, but the neighborhoods didn't want them near their homes.
Most of the people in those neighborhoods belonged to churches in the local
area.
3. Look at the number and type of TV preachers (I can't call them pastors or
Christians since their theology is so foreign to the Bible and Christ I
know it would be a blasphemey to call them pastors or Christians). Look at
how many of them promise people that "God wants you to be rich and healthy."
and "If you are suffering you must have done something to get on God's bad
side." Look at how successful these people are at raking in the $. I have
a hard time reconcilling their theology with the idea that God sacrificed
His own Son on the cross for us. How can I expect that God wouldn't demand
anything less from me? I can not.
4. The level of Biblical illiteracy amongst American Christians (Catholics,
fundamentalist, evangelicals, whatever) is astounding. The numbers are in
the 40-50% range. Why is this? Because studying and knowing the Bible
takes time, thought and effort. All things Americans don't want to do.
We want to be gratified instantly and entertained.
The American part of the Body of Christ has become just as infected with these
attitudes as the general secular society. Picking up our crosses and following
Jesus to Calvary means being prepared to sacrifice our lives for His Will and
Purpose for the world. Does that have to be a joyless action? Not at all.
Paul clearly taught that to do God's work is a great joy.
But doing ministry is the great joy, receiving from someone elses ministry
is to be edifying and preparing us for our own ministry. Christian's who are
artists, musicians, pastors, etc (really all of us) whose goal is to edify
and prepare other believers for their own ministries truly are doing God's work.
If that isn't their goal then they are not doing God's work. And when we forget
that, as people receiving their ministry, then we are also not involved in God's
work.
Now I am not some kind of neo-Puritan. I enjoy music (of many different
styles) and an occassional movie or TV show or book. But I really enjoy knowing
God's Word. I have found that the more I know about His Word the more I want
to know. As my wife has noticed in the past few years I have changed from the
kind of person who just wanted to be gratified by the TV to a person who is
"self" entertained. This change, which I believe is totally driven by the
Holy Spirit working in my life, has caused me to be even more on fire for
Our Lord and Savior and the work He has given all of us to do.
Kevin Logemann
|> posts dealing with Sandy Patti's affair. I was also surprised and
|> shocked to see that none of the posts quoted a magazine, newspaper, TV
|> show, etc. to give credibility to the fact. It just seemed to be
|> a given that what was said in the first post was true.
|>
|> Forgive me for being a bit sceptical, but having been the first person
|> to post a response to the intitial (and unsubstantiated) claim that
|> Amy Grant was having an affair with Vince Gill, I'd like two or three
|> people to give a reference...an article they read, a TV news program
|> they saw...just something to give a little credibility to this post.
|> Right now, it just looks like a huge rumor.
OK, here you go:
Copyright 1995 Plain Dealer Publishing Co.
The Plain Dealer
September 7, 1995 Thursday, FINAL / ALL
SECTION: ARTS & LIVING; Pg. 10E
LENGTH: 585 words
HEADLINE: VERY PUBLIC CONFESSION;
CHRISTIAN SINGER ADMITS TO AFFAIR, APOLOGIZES TO FANS
BYLINE: By ADELLE M. BANKS; RELIGION NEWS SERVICE
BODY:
Sandi Patti, the Gospel Music Association's female vocalist of the year for
11 consecutive years, has admitted to an extramarital affair with a former
back-up vocalist she has since wed.
Christianity Today magazine is reporting in its Sept. 11 issue that Patti,
39, who is engaged in a bitter custody battle with her first husband, married
Don Peslis, 34, on Aug. 6. Peslis, a divorced fitness instructor who was a
member of the now-defunct vocal group One, was touring with Patti during a
singing tour in 1991 when their affair began, the magazine said.
"I had sexual relations with somebody outside of marriage," Patti said in an
interview with the evangelical magazine, mailed to readers Tuesday. "The other
mistake, the other sin that I committed, was not being honest about it in the
beginning."
In conservative Christian circles, entertainers such as Patti are held to
strict moral standards by their fans, and they often are considered unofficial
ministers who use their musical talent to spread the Gospel.
Patti, one of the most well-known names in contemporary Christian music, was
honored as female vocalist of the year by the Gospel Music Association from
1982 to 1992. She began her career in 1979 and gained fame by touring with Bill
Gaither, a legend in contemporary Christian music, in the early 1980s.
Patti also said she was involved in a physical relationship with a man other
than Peslis that did not include sexual intercourse. In addition, she repeated
a claim - first publicized in February 1993 - that she was sexually abused as a
child. She said the alleged abuse - by a female member of her father's choir -
does not excuse her from responsibility for the extramarital relationships.
News of Patti's extramarital activity and remarriage has "shocked" some of
Patti's fans, said Christianity Today associate editor Timothy Morgan, a
co-author of the article.
"I think, first of all, they're upset that she got a divorce in the first
place and second of all that she had an affair and she lied about it," said
Morgan.
When Patti filed for divorce in 1992, some radio stations stopped playing her
recordings, believing she had not provided biblical grounds for her divorce.
Patti's "O Holy Night," a Christmas album scheduled for release this month,
will be postponed, said Word Records & Music President Roland Lundy. The
Nashville company said the action was a "joint decision" between itself and
Patti.
"I admit that I have sinned and have made past mistakes," Patti said in a
statement from Word. "I want to be sensitive to the reactions of my supporters.
While I have been working privately for some time on my restoration and
healing, I want to respect those individuals who are hearing this information
for the first time."
Patti told Christianity Today she was uncertain about a return to touring. "
Idon't have any clear direction right now," she said.
Shortly after last December's statement, Patti canceled a national tour timed
to the release of her album "Find It on the Wings."
Patti claimed in the Christianity Today story that she had been emotionally
abused in her first marriage. Her ex-husband, John Helvering - Patti's manager
for about 15 years - denied her charge.
"Sandi is a master of innuendo in trying to avoid taking responsibility for
her own actions," Helvering said in a statement to Christianity Today. "We both
contributed to our marriage problems." The magazine said it would post
Helvering's remarks on its on-line computer service.
See also:
1) THE KANSAS CITY STAR, September 5, 1995, Tuesday
2) The Palm Beach Post, September 2, 1995, Saturday, FINAL EDITION
3) The State Journal-Register (Springfield, IL) September 2, 1995
4) AP Online September 01, 1995;
--
|Kevin Logemann | A developer wants to build a house in the woods,
|LEXIS-NEXIS | while an environmentalist already owns a house in the
|ke...@lexis-nexis.com | woods... Dennis Miller
David
Woman??? (or another magazine of that genre), Sandi reveals that
she had an affair with a member of her backup group in the early
1990's. This story has also been carried in most papers across
the country. This was prior to her divorce from John. She and
the backup singer were married in early August. She has has been
working through the situation with her home pastor and local and
congregtion in Ahderson. And in fact they were invited to
actually through stones at her this past Sunday--none did--unlike
this newsgroup at times!
Matthew C. Laswell
> In article <42jf4v$g...@maureen.teleport.com>, V-X <v...@teleport.com> wrote:
> >jpa...@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Jeffrey Parks) wrote:
> >attempts to hide the truth, and resigned from IVF.
> Now, _this_ is an interesting point. Lots of people here in r.m.c (and
> elsewhere) think that no one particular sin is worse than others, i.e.
> that all sins are equally wrong.
> If so, sexual sins (i.e. adultery) wouldn't be any worse than (for
> example) telling a lie. Why is it, then, that we find it admirable if a
> person in a position of leadership resigns after committing a "big" sin
> which is essentially unrelated to their work? (I don't know the story
> personally, but MacDonald sounds like an example of this. Michael English
> probably is too.) If they were caught lying to a friend about something,
> surely they wouldn't resign.
Hmmm, this is just off the cuff, but I have a couple of ideas...
> Actually, I can think of a few possible reasons why we would react
> differently to adultery than to lying:
> 1. we don't agree that all sins are equally wrong.
How do you mean agree? It's good to make a distinction between what
we say we believe and the implicit beliefs that we demonstrate through
our actions...
> 2. some of us Christians are too uptight about sex.
Yes, this is probably true.
> 3. we don't understand about forgiveness engouh to act like
> someone who has asked for forgiveness is really forgiven.
Yes, this is probably true.
> 4. we feel vindicated if a "bad" person suffers consequences for
> their actions (even if those consequences are inappropriate).
Yes, this is probably true.
Even given all of these, I can see a reasonable argument for removing someone
from (professional, public) ministry in the case of adultery and not
necessarily for lying. First of all, someone who has been publicly exposed
in an adulterous relationship (or has admitted to one) is in desperate need
of help and counseling. They have a very broken relationship with their
spouse to try and mend (not to mention a ton of inner healing). Given this,
they probably have way too much on their plate to be able to deal with an
official ministry position as well. Given this, the "leave of absence"
approached mentioned earlier is quite possibly the most loving response
that a congregation can have.
Second, it seems to me that adultery is probably the outward sign of a long
period of less visible sin. If this is the case, the person caught in it
probably shouldn't be in a postition of leadership in the church.
I don't have the reference handy, but Paul does write that leaders in the
church _should_ have stable families. I believe the rationale goes along
the lines of "if they can't keep their family together, how in the world
are they going to keep the church together?"
Now, a couple of disclaimers:
1) I'm not married and never have been. I've witnessed a very ugly divorce
between my parents, but adultery was not involved to the best of my
knowledge. I'm not speaking from a great well of experience about the
emotional state of people who have gone through all of this.
2) When I talk about lying above, I'm referring to isolated incidents, not
a habitual pattern. The chronic liar should be removed from official
ministry for the same reasons as the adulterer, IMHO.
Just disorganized thoughts from a man who should be on the golf course...
- matt l.
mat...@comm.mot.com
Not the official opinion of Motorola, Inc.
David Leibold
: >As someone who has not had an opportunity to read the newsgroups over
: >the Labor Day weekend, I was surprised and shocked to read the 20+
: >posts dealing with Sandy Patti's affair. I was also surprised and
: >shocked to see that none of the posts quoted a magazine, newspaper, TV
: >show, etc. to give credibility to the fact. It just seemed to be
: >a given that what was said in the first post was true.
Halifax Daily News, 2 Sept 95 had a report with the details on the
case... thus it did make at least one daily newspaper (which presumably
got it from wire services).
--
::David Leibold aa...@freenet.toronto.on.ca
Greg House
the tabloid magazine the Star (or is it National Star?) has picked up
this story. Had a photo and text about it on the front cover. Pretty
sad...
(And no...I didn't read the article)
Greg
Ross Morley
>While looking through my e-archives to find independent verification of
>the statement Patty made in regard to her positon of leadership in the
>church, I did find this piece that Ross Morley posted back in May. I
>found it to be applicable in this case.
I've been globetrotting and missin' all this stuff.
Just want to mention that this piece was originally posted
by someone else back in '92, and I just reposted the USA
Today article when the subject came up a while back.
Ross
--
Ross Morley .---. email: ro...@prpa.philips.com
Philips Research Palo Alto | ___\ Phone: (415) 354 0325
4005 Miranda Ave, Suite 175 \/ \ or PICS 554 0300 x325
Palo Alto, CA 94304, USA ^^ FAX: (415) 354 0309
Ross Morley
only to say:
>mmm
Profound. Your contribution to the discussion is invaluable. :-)
You know, the same can be said about Begian chocolate (reminds
me... I have some... mmm).
Revrcf
and the bad they do!. Let's all remember, those things done in secret will
still be judged by God in Christ! "take the log out of your eye before you
try to pull the one out of "Sandi's"