Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
Larry Phelps
Well if anybody hasn't heard, Kurt Cobain is dead from a self
inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It's a sad day in this
world when someone such as Kurt looses all hope and commits
suicide for whatever reasons he had...Although I wasn't
a big fan of Nirvana, I still have to say that they did have
a particular style of music that reached alot of today's
young people...whether it was good or bad.....
--
_ _
(_) _ ___ __ __ __ (_)
| \ | | | | | | | | (
| \ | |-- | | |__| | | \
_ | \_| |___ |__| | \ |__| ___) _ lar...@netcom.com
(_) \ ______/ (_)
Wasted Life
>From: lar...@netcom.com (Larry Phelps)
>Subject: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 22:17:06 GMT
> Well if anybody hasn't heard, Kurt Cobain is dead from a self
> inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It's a sad day in this
> world when someone such as Kurt looses all hope and commits
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
> suicide for whatever reasons he had...Although I wasn't
> a big fan of Nirvana, I still have to say that they did have
> a particular style of music that reached alot of today's
> young people...whether it was good or bad.....
>--
> _ _
> (_) _ ___ __ __ __ (_)
> | \ | | | | | | | | (
> | \ | |-- | | |__| | | \
> _ | \_| |___ |__| | \ |__| ___) _ lar...@netcom.com
> (_) \ ______/ (_)
--
Hey! This is life. You can't fake your way though it.
(just in case you didn't know)
John M Davison
S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life) writes:
>Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
Here is an example of the most obnoxious sort of Christian: the
myopic sort who fails and/or refuses to put Christianity in perspective along
with all of the established non-Christian religions out there.
"No hope without Christ": give me a break.
--
John Davison
davi...@ecn.purdue.edu
"I cannot conceive that anybody will require multiplications at the rate of
40,000 or even 4,000 per hour..." -- F. H. Wales (1936)
J.P. Paulus
John M Davison <davi...@en.ecn.purdue.edu> wrote:
> In article <S1012944.7...@cedarville.edu>
>S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life) writes:
>>Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
>
> Here is an example of the most obnoxious sort of Christian: the
>myopic sort who fails and/or refuses to put Christianity in perspective along
>with all of the established non-Christian religions out there.
>
> "No hope without Christ": give me a break.
>
other religions.
But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
without Jesus.
>--
>John Davison
>davi...@ecn.purdue.edu
>"I cannot conceive that anybody will require multiplications at the rate of
> 40,000 or even 4,000 per hour..." -- F. H. Wales (1936)
--JP--
--
---------------=================::>*<::================----------------
J. P. Paulus "...I hope you'll have the strength to
sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu just remember...I'm still your friend."
shadow...@nwu.edu Rich Mullins, "What Susan Said"
Beverly Keist
>From: davi...@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Davison)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Summary: "no hope without Christ" is a bunch of nonsense
>Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 02:20:20 GMT
> In article <S1012944.7...@cedarville.edu>
>S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life) writes:
>>Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
> Here is an example of the most obnoxious sort of Christian: the
>myopic sort who fails and/or refuses to put Christianity in perspective along
>with all of the established non-Christian religions out there.
> "No hope without Christ": give me a break.
Hello? Why *would* an unbeliever have true hope? What does he/she have to
hope FOR? And how in the world can you say Christianity must be put "in
perspective with all of the established non-Christian religions out there?"
Christ is the only way, truth, and life. Apart from Him no one can come to
the Father. I fail to understand how meshing Christianity with the
deceptions other people call religions fits into that divine plan.
>--
>John Davison
>davi...@ecn.purdue.edu
>"I cannot conceive that anybody will require multiplications at the rate of
> 40,000 or even 4,000 per hour..." -- F. H. Wales (1936)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
|S109...@CEDARVILLE.EDU | good for something." |
| | -Thoreau |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "Don't judge a man by his opinions, but by what |
| his opinions have made him." -G.C. Lichtenberg |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matthew Meyer
>From: S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Summary: "no hope without Christ" is a bunch of nonsense
Gee. And to think I thought that this thread might actually be about Kurt
Cobain.
Secular though he was, Kurt Cobain changed rock. The amazing success of "
Smells Like Teen Spirit" broke open the door that allowed the underground to
burst into the mainstream. suddenly, bands are recording their fourth or
fifth albums as major-label debuts. And this has extended into the
Christian market as well. It's unlikely that bands like DigHayZoose, The
Prayer Chain, or Poor Old Lu would even be heard of if Nirvana had not
opened things up. In this way, an entire industry owed a lot to Kurt
Cobain. I look at his death in several ways. I feel disillusioned
hearing a Nirvana song and realizing that there will never be any more. It'
s sad to realize that this man committed his own soul to hell before anyone
could reach him as far as we know. And in a way, it ticks me off. Cobain
was where every struggling musician in America wanted to be, and he threw it
away. It's strange - I never thought he really was uncomfortable in the
spotlight, I always thought it was an act because the suffering, starving
artist was what was big right now.
this whole incident just confirms what I've always said: Artistic Vision
doesn't belong in rock-n-roll.
I think I'll keep listening to They Might Be Giants. they'll always be here.
-mattman
P.S. this is the longest post I've ever written.
Paul Moloney
>I look at his death in several ways. I feel disillusioned
>hearing a Nirvana song and realizing that there will never be any more. It'
>s sad to realize that this man committed his own soul to hell before anyone
>could reach him as far as we know.
Ah, another compassionate Christian. Give me a Satanist any day; at
least they're honest about their hatred.
P.
--
moorcockdenislearypratchettdelasouliainmbanksneworderheathersu2batmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"
james dublin ireland http://www.scrg.cs.tcd.ie/scrg/guests/pmoloney.html
brownbladerunnersugarcubesjohnwooelectronicblaylockpowershiassenham'ncornpizza
Beverly Keist
>From: S108...@cedarville.edu (Matthew Meyer)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Summary: "no hope without Christ" is a bunch of nonsense
>-mattman
Well, congratulations.
Matt Hicks
>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>other religions.
>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>without Jesus.
Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
as you was sterile. I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
that can change your life?
Disclaimer: My views are not, so far as I know, indicative of the views of
NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF. I will, however, do what I can to change that.
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
Philip F. Gomez
(Nirvana Le.. by Paul Mol...@maths.tcd.i
> >hearing a Nirvana song and realizing that there will never be any more. It'
> >s sad to realize that this man committed his own soul to hell before anyone
> >could reach him as far as we know.
>
> Ah, another compassionate Christian. Give me a Satanist any day; at
> least they're honest about their hatred.
After reading some of these posts about Kurt Cobain's death, I have a
hard time believing that this is a Christian Bboard. I think some of us
should seriously reconsider calling ourselves Christian when we can't
even "weep with those who weep."
I became a Christian not too long ago and before I was, Nirvana was one
of my absolute favorite bands. Kurt Cobain had a tremendous amount of
talent and its a serious shame that he died as he did. I can honestly
say in all sincerity that if it weren't for Jesus Christ, I very well
could have ended up the same way: dead with a shotgun next to me.
If you would rather a satanist than a compassionate Christian, I'm sure
you'll get your wish.
"And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God
should love his brother also." -1 John 4:21
May God comfort those who are truly saddened by this tragic death. And
to those who have expressed contempt to us who are sorry- no one is
impressed with your utter arrogance.
___ ___
/__) (, /` Q__,
/ /_ * / __/_ /_ /__ __ _
,(_ / (_ /_ / (_/ ` ,(__/`(_)/((_/-)_/)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(_,~
- Phil F. Gomez -
pg...@andrew.cmu.edu
Mark 9:23-24
Matt Hicks
>Hello? Why *would* an unbeliever have true hope? What does he/she have to
>Christ is the only way, truth, and life.
>I fail to understand...
ANYTHING! That's not surprising. You're pathetic. I wish Cobain had found a
way to take your ilk with him. Actually, partying with Cobain probably would
have done all you small-minded, tight-sphinctered pinheads a world of good.
Kurt's dead and you live on--if that doesn't disprove the existence of god,
nothing ever will. If there is a hell, I know the PTL club runs on the only
channel 24 hours a day. I really can't imagine any torment worse than
spending eternity (f**k, five minutes even) around someone like you. I
wouldn't be surprised if the straw that broke Cobain's will to live was a
visit from a Jehovah's witness. Kurt probably closed the door and said,
"That does it, I'm checking off this fuckin' planet."
If there's any chance at all that heaven and hell exist, I hope I end up in
the latter--I know that's where all the cool people will be. Arriving in
heaven and finding it populated with your kind would be like arriving at a
party that just ran out of beer; anybody with any sense at all would bail.
Disclaimer: In so far as I know, these are not the opinions of my employer.
Beverly Keist
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Date: 10 Apr 94 21:04:24 GMT
>sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (J.P. Paulus) writes:
>>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>>other religions.
>>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>>without Jesus.
>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>as you was sterile. I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>that can change your life?
Look. If you don't like Christian music, then fine. But I think that you
need to do a little more homework on all the different kinds of Christian
music there are out there before you call it "so incredibly stilted and
lifeless."
>Disclaimer: My views are not, so far as I know, indicative of the views of
>NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF. I will, however, do what I can to change that.
Heaven forbid.
>--
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
Michael E. Matthews
"invading" a newsgroup, say inflammatory things and start a
flame war. If a posting is not in character with the
newsgroup, just ignore it. Don't post any response to it. Don't
take their bait. Goodbye to this thread.
Susan L Lyon
: inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
: incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
: by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
: _I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
: that can change your life?
i bet you really hear a lot of Christian music...right...and i sincerely
hope that your reasons for not believing in God are better than the
ones contained in that xtc song, 'cos those ones are pretty lame...
"i'm not gonna believe in God because there's bad stuff in the world..."
and i believe that andy partridge donates all of his profits to the
homeless, since there isn't a god to help them...sure...
--susan
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ "it's not low-life + from susan: + "i'd like to drop +
+ it's just people + mozzer@ + my trousers +
+ having a good time" + umich.edu + to the queen..." +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Beverly Keist
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist) writes:
>>Hello? Why *would* an unbeliever have true hope? What does he/she have to
>>Christ is the only way, truth, and life.
>>I fail to understand...
>ANYTHING! That's not surprising. You're pathetic. I wish Cobain had found a
>way to take your ilk with him. Actually, partying with Cobain probably would
>have done all you small-minded, tight-sphinctered pinheads a world of good.
>Kurt's dead and you live on--if that doesn't disprove the existence of god,
>nothing ever will. If there is a hell, I know the PTL club runs on the only
>channel 24 hours a day. I really can't imagine any torment worse than
>spending eternity (f**k, five minutes even) around someone like you. I
>wouldn't be surprised if the straw that broke Cobain's will to live was a
>visit from a Jehovah's witness. Kurt probably closed the door and said,
>"That does it, I'm checking off this fuckin' planet."
>If there's any chance at all that heaven and hell exist, I hope I end up in
>the latter--I know that's where all the cool people will be. Arriving in
>heaven and finding it populated with your kind would be like arriving at a
>party that just ran out of beer; anybody with any sense at all would bail.
I'm sorry to have offended you. I honestly don't know what I said that made
you so mad in the first place. I'm not quite sure why you're responding in
such a hostile manner, but you are entitled to your opinions...wish you'd
grant me the same right. I am NOT trying to force anything down your
throat. As for your uncertainty as to whether or not there is a God,
heaven, and hell, you'll find that out one day. I won't even tell you my
beliefs on that, because you'll just rip me apart for that too.
>Disclaimer: In so far as I know, these are not the opinions of my employer.
>I will, however, do what I can to change that.
>--
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Alex Harden
>In article <matt.766012577@groucho> ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks) writes:
>>>Christ is the only way, truth, and life.
>>ANYTHING! That's not surprising. You're pathetic. I wish Cobain had found a
>>way to take your ilk with him.
>>[..]
>I'm sorry to have offended you. I honestly don't know what I said that made
>you so mad in the first place. I'm not quite sure why you're responding in
>such a hostile manner, but you are entitled to your opinions...wish you'd
>grant me the same right. I am NOT trying to force anything down your
>throat. As for your uncertainty as to whether or not there is a God,
>heaven, and hell, you'll find that out one day. I won't even tell you my
>beliefs on that, because you'll just rip me apart for that too.
your above statement (beginning with "Christ is...") not being
delimited by an IMHO or some other form of disclaimer, along with
passing judgement on a person without really knowing *what* their
religious beliefs were (just that their lifestyle isn't one you or
your religion would tolerate), is what pissed Matt off. (IMHO)
--
alex harden -- university at buffalo -- har...@acsu.buffalo.edu
----------------------- bassist at large ----------------------
rickenbacker - ibanez - hartke - peavey - boss - dod/digitech
"this is not a love song." -- "cold fire", rush
Wasted Life
>From: har...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Alex Harden)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
Well, IMHO, anything I write is probably my opinion. So I don't _need_ a
"IMHO". Wouldn't you expect people to post their opinions? If not, you're
deluded.
--
ME!!!
(That's - Will Orser)
--
Wasted Life
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>Date: 10 Apr 94 21:04:24 GMT
>sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (J.P. Paulus) writes:
Oh. I'm glad that you have such a complex mind that was groomed by a swim
in the "brilliant" gene pool. Obviously, the music industry caters to your
tastes and standards because Christian music is not popular at all. If you
really LISTENED to Christian music, without a bias, you might actually LIKE
it. You might not like all of it, but you'd probably like a few songs. I
don't like all of it, because peoples' musical tastes are different (no
foolin'!).
As for the existence of God (big G not little g), He doesn't exist or not
exist because people do or don't believe in Him. He exists because He is
the creator of the universe!
Wasted Life
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist) writes:
Hey, can you even hold a conversation without swearing? Probably not.
Why am I small-minded? Because I don't agree with you? Hmm... Makes
sense. I'm small-minded, you're right. If I don't agree with you, I'm
wrong. What a crock! Jesus Christ _IS_ the truth!! I probably can't
convince you of this, but I still can tell you. God came to earth as a
man (Jesus Christ). Jesus died on a cross (a horrible death) for the sins
of the world. _Anyone_ who asks for forgiveness and submits to Christ can
be changed by Him and go to heaven. As for you not wanting to go to heaven,
anyone who thinks that hell is gonna be one big party is mistaken. Hell is
eternal suffering and separation from God. There ain't gonna be no keg
there! And as for partying on earth, getting drunk and stoned isn't my idea
of fun. I can drink Pepsi all night and not throw up in the morning.
I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses either. They are misguided in a few
of their beliefs.
About the PTL scam, that was done by people, not God. People aren't
perfect. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I try my best, but if I
don't depend on God, I fail.
Disclaimer: In so far as I know, God is Holy and Just and doesn't have to
put up with crap from anyone! (It's true!) He still loves you though and
can forgive you if you ask Him to.
I hope I haven't ruined Christianity for you. The problem with Christianity
(if there is one) is with the people in it, not God. People can make
mistakes, but God can still love and forgive them. That just shows what an
awesome God he is!
Ian Brown#
Does anyone know yet which groups will be appearing
at gb this year?
Anybody got any clues to the speakers?
thanks, see you there.
g0...@uea.ac.uk Ian B.
Rick Jansen
The Nirvana Lead (sic!) man indeed.
I've put 'cobain' and 'nirvana' into my .suicide file now.
Rick
--
ri...@sara.nl
S&H's a module and s&h's looking good
Peter Samuelson
Quoth Matt Hicks:
> Kurt's dead and you live on--if that doesn't disprove the existence
> of god, nothing ever will.
It doesn't. In fact, if Kurt believed in God he most likely would
never have blown his brains out. I can't prove that of course (like
most conjectures) but statistics bear me out. Thus, by your logic,
nothing ever will disprove the existence of God.
> I really can't imagine any torment worse than spending eternity
> (f**k, five minutes even) around someone like you.
You've never spent five minutes, even, around her. Neither have I, but
I would expect it would be quite pleasant; more so than spending five
minutes around Satan and the crew from the lake of fire. There you
have not only the most uncomfortable possible of atmospheric
conditions, you also get some very unpleasant company.
> I wouldn't be surprised if the straw that broke Cobain's will to live
> was a visit from a Jehovah's witness. Kurt probably closed the door
> and said, "That does it, I'm checking off this fuckin' planet."
Maybe. You seem annoyed enough with the average Christian, even one
you've never met. But let's not drag the Witnesses into this; they're
_not_ Christians, certainly not representative of mainstream
Christianity which you so insult. Shall I make a similar analogy in
saying all atheists are gang-bangers?
> If there's any chance at all that heaven and hell exist, I hope I end
> up in the latter--I know that's where all the cool people will
> be.
That so? It's where a lot of people will be, yes, but I believe you'll
find them a lot less cool in the conditions you'll meet them in. So
will you. You will be much less keen on blaspheming God and such when
you're actually doing the burning, rather than just joking about it.
> Arriving in heaven and finding it populated with your kind would
> be like arriving at a party that just ran out of beer; anybody with
> any sense at all would bail.
I find parties without beer to be much pleasanter than those with, but
that's an irrelevent opinion. Don't have any misgivings about Heaven,
please; it won't be anyone's preconceived idea of it. It is quite
presumptuous to assume halos, harps, choirs, flowing robes and so
forth. I have no idea what Heaven will be like (nobody possibly can
have any idea) but it'll be more fun than anyone could possibly have on
Earth.
/? Peter
6
>>least they're honest about their hatred.
>After reading some of these posts about Kurt Cobain's death, I have a
>hard time believing that this is a Christian Bboard.
You better pray real hard for KC's soul because at this very moment
legions of satan worshipers (like Amy Grant for instance) are very very
busy drawing pentagrams, reciting ancient demonic incantations etc.
You have your work cut out for you. If your faith is strong perhaps,
just perhaps, Mr. Cobain will not pass over to the dark side.
P.S. Does my signature line mean anything to you?
--
6
andrew.j.whitman
>Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.christian: 10-Apr-94 Re: Kurt Cobain
>(Nirvana Le.. by Paul Mol...@maths.tcd.i
>> >I look at his death in several ways. I feel disillusioned
>> >hearing a Nirvana song and realizing that there will never be any more. It'
>> >s sad to realize that this man committed his own soul to hell before anyone
>> >could reach him as far as we know.
>>
>> Ah, another compassionate Christian. Give me a Satanist any day; at
>> least they're honest about their hatred.
>
>
>After reading some of these posts about Kurt Cobain's death, I have a
>hard time believing that this is a Christian Bboard. I think some of us
>should seriously reconsider calling ourselves Christian when we can't
>even "weep with those who weep."
What you're witnessing is an old, unhallowed tradition called "bait the
Christians." My guess is that "Christian" is the *last* thing that many
of those who have been posting on this topic would call themselves.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure that many of us feel saddened
by Kurt's death. I know I do. I'll miss him as a talented songwriter
and musician, and I grieve for his family and friends at the tragic
waste.
>May God comfort those who are truly saddened by this tragic death. And
>to those who have expressed contempt to us who are sorry- no one is
>impressed with your utter arrogance.
Amen.
Andy Whitman
AT&T Network Systems
Columbus, Ohio
a...@cblph.att.com
Dave Lovely (Sverdrup)
"The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."
'Nuff said
--
*******************************************************************************
David Lovely dlo...@mbvlab.wpafb.af.mil
Sverdrup Technology, Inc. 513/429-5056
4200 Colonel Glenn Highway, Suite 500 513/255-1115 (direct)
Beavercreek, Ohio 45431 513/476-4414 (Just the Fax)
Model Based Vision Lab, Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio
Unix/Network Administration: "You name it...I will break it!"
_______________________________________________________________________________
Mr. President, I am still waiting for my "Middle-Class Tax Cut"!
*******************************************************************************
Crunch
>>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>>other religions.
>>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>>without Jesus.
>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>as you was sterile.
Simple-minded? Look in the mirror Matt-dude! Just those 4 sentences proves
you are as simple-minded as the people you accuse.
> I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>that can change your life?
Apparently you never heard of groups like Rez and artists like Steve Taylor.
I'll admit that most Christian music doen't have the intensity as the secular
music. But there are some artists, like the above mentioned, that deals with
the pain and the sarcasm of the real world, and not just "Trust Jesus. It's
O.K." lyrics.
Personally, I don't listen to just Christian Music. I like Nirvana; it's a
shame that such a talented musician is gone. What infuriates me is that now
every "Christian" in the world is going to say "if he only had Jesus". I know
people who were "Christians" that blew their heads off too! Who knows why
someone kills themselves? Everyone goes through depression of some type.
Life is full of pain, even if you believe in Jesus. Kurt sings about it in
his songs. REZ identifies with through theirs. It's a fact of life.
>Disclaimer: My views are not, so far as I know, indicative of the views
of>NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF. I will, however, do what I can to change that.
These views are not indicative of the views of everyone, and frankly I don't
care.
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
Crunch
Douglas C Pearson
>S108...@cedarville.edu (Matthew Meyer) writes:
>
>>I look at his death in several ways. I feel disillusioned
>>hearing a Nirvana song and realizing that there will never be any more. It'
>>s sad to realize that this man committed his own soul to hell before anyone
>>could reach him as far as we know.
>
>Ah, another compassionate Christian. Give me a Satanist any day; at
>least they're honest about their hatred.
>
a Christian can talk about a unbeliever's spiritual state without hatred in his
heart. i'm confident that matthew did that referring to kurt. if he's going
to be intellectually honest about his faith, though, (and this goes for me too)
then he has to state that God is in all likelihood going to have judgement on
kurt cobain's soul, and it's not going to be a positive thing. i don't
particularly like saying that, myself. but kurt has no excuse. he lived his
life the way he wanted to, and now he has to pay the consequences.
i'm being honest about my hatred, paul...i hate the assumption that when a
person says that there is a right way and a wrong way, then that necessarily
means that he hates all the people who engage in the wrong way.
let's state it again...looking at things from a musical standpoint, kurt cobain
broke barriers. his influence on the "art" (if you will) of rock'n'roll is
unmistakeable, and his music will be missed.
from a spiritual standpoint, though, it's nothing but another damned wasted
soul.
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- happily married
take my fist and hold it in Your hand take my rage and bury my pain/prayerchain
Douglas C Pearson
folks are getting so pissed right along with all the r.m.misc folks and the
r.m.cd folks. that's because this latest onslaught of articles is crossposted
to all three groups. i'd personally like to find the turkey who did this and
instigated this flame war, but a little understanding might be in order here...
John Porter
>Secular though he was, Kurt Cobain changed rock. The amazing success of
>"Smells Like Teen Spirit" broke open the door that allowed the underground to
>burst into the mainstream. suddenly, bands are recording their fourth or
>fifth albums as major-label debuts.
A very nice sentiment and eulogy for a guy who deserved neither.
Underground is, by definition, not mainstream. He sold out, just like
a lot of other underground bands since, oh, 1977.
Have you totally forgotten punk?
john
Rob Moore
>
>Read in Proverbs
> "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."
>'Nuff said
>
true enough.
how bout: "you believe in God?"
"no"
"you will."
nuff said
Justin Bailey
>From: MSD...@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM (6)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
Sorry, but that is not the way things work. We can do nothing for a persons
soul once they have died. I am not saying this in a uncompassionate tone.
I really don't know much about Cobain, but I know that all things work
together for good.
Justin Bailey
Before I start I would like to say that I am not trying to argue with
you, or flam you. I am writing this because even though I don't know you, I
care about you and everyone else out there who feel the same way that you do.
Please consider what I say, and lets carry on a peaceful conversation. Well
here it goes...
You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
I understand you saying this, because many people feel this way. I happen
to believe that all three of these things exist. If they do, then where
will you fit into the picture. You say that you would rather go to hell.
Let me tell you that this is a big mistake. Hell is deffinately not going
to be a place to part. It will be a place of eternal torment in the Lake of
Fire. Those who are in hell will surely regret not following Christ. Jesus
is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
with God. Also He is the only person to raise Himself from the dead and to
still be living today. Many people witness this event, and they wrote it
down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
go on for the rest of your life without being told this. I know that what I
say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal
power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
In Christ,
Justin Bailey (s107...@cedarville.edu)
Virgil
>From: CurtFor...@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Crunch)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Crunch
Good point dude.....give'em the lyrics of "Jesus is for loosers"
_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ ____ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Necromancer
>Matt,
> Before I start I would like to say that I am not trying to argue with
>you, or flam you. I am writing this because even though I don't know you, I
>care about you and everyone else out there who feel the same way that you do.
>Please consider what I say, and lets carry on a peaceful conversation. Well
>here it goes...
> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>I understand you saying this, because many people feel this way. I happen
>to believe that all three of these things exist. If they do, then where
>will you fit into the picture. You say that you would rather go to hell.
>Let me tell you that this is a big mistake. Hell is deffinately not going
>to be a place to part. It will be a place of eternal torment in the Lake of
>Fire. Those who are in hell will surely regret not following Christ. Jesus
Are you speaking from experience? What if I told you that God was the
devil and that he only said things about Satan to make him look bad and
hell was actually a place where everyone ate Cocoa Puffs all day and
laughed at the schmucks who were fooled by the evil god? Not saying
that I actually believe the above, but you really shouldn't say what
Hell is and/or isn't, because the truth is, no one knows. Besides, what
if he likes eternal torment?
>is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
>with God. Also He is the only person to raise Himself from the dead and to
Uh, David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God, and at least there is
proof that he existed, and so far, no one has been able to prove that
Jesus ever existed at all <to my knowledge>.
>still be living today. Many people witness this event, and they wrote it
>down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
Like I said before, do you have proof Jesus ever existed, and do you
have proof that if he existed he rose from the dead? Many people wrote
down that the there were gods on Mt. Olympus and that they interacted
quite a bit more often with mortals. Does that mean they existed?
Many people wrote down that there are four true elements. Does this
mean there is? Your logic breaks down quickly, my friend.
>go on for the rest of your life without being told this. I know that what I
>say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
>understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
I have yet to see any evidence of any god's (or gods') existence(s), and
your little spiel above added nothing to my understanding of the guillibility
of those who follow religions.
>"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal
>power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
>has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
How can someone see something invisible <which by definition means it
cannot be seen>?
>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
Even though I am not the person this was intended for, I am glad I read
it too.
>In Christ,
>Justin Bailey (s107...@cedarville.edu)
- Necromancer
Out of Order
Quoth Necromancer:
> Uh, David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God, and at least there is
> proof that he existed, and so far, no one has been able to prove that
> Jesus ever existed at all <to my knowledge>.
Wait a minute. You aren't serious about this did Jesus exist thing,
are you? Do you believe Abraham Lincoln existed? If you don't, maybe
my point is moot. Anyway, nobody can prove it. There is a huge amount
of circumstantial evidence, of course, but it absolutely cannot be
proven, as nobody alive today has seen him.
There is plenty of circumstantial evidence for Jesus having existed
too, some written from a religious standpoint and some just from an
historical one. Jesus is better documented than Plato, I bet. (On a
related topic, the New Testament is hundreds of times better verified
than Homer's Odyssey, which few people have any trouble believing is
very close to how Homer wrote it originally, so there is no real
argument about the accuracy of the New Testament either, in terms of
whether its content today reflects its content when it was written).
> Many people wrote down that the there were gods on Mt. Olympus and
> that they interacted quite a bit more often with mortals. Does that
> mean they existed? Many people wrote down that there are four true
> elements. Does this mean there is? Your logic breaks down quickly,
> my friend.
Umm, what's wrong with this picture? The New Testament is written in
part (the narrative parts about Jesus, that is) by eyewitnesses, or
alleged eyewitnesses, as you would probably rather think. Greeks and
Romans who wrote about Olympian gods were not eyewitnesses, they wrote
down legends, myths, that were already legends or myths before they
were written down. Those who wrote down that there are four true
elements were conjecturing, not documenting. Scientists today still
conjecture. But there is a great difference between writing a
scientific paper and writing about something you've seen, a biography.
Can I reuse your words here? "Your logic breaks down quickly, my
friend."
> I have yet to see any evidence of any god's (or gods') existence(s),
> and your little spiel above added nothing to my understanding of the
> gullibility of those who follow religions.
Do you belong to a particular political party? You are gullible. Do
you actually trust what they put in tin cans not to have food
poisoning? You are gullible. Do you follow those who teach that there
is no God? You are gullible. If none of the above apply, think about
anything you do believe in. You are gullible. Someone being gullible
is a rather moot point, as it applies to all.
> >"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His
> >eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being
> >understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
> >-Romans 1:20 (NIV)
>
> How can someone see something invisible <which by definition means it
> cannot be seen>?
Please, this is a joke, right? You don't actually believe this one, do
you? "clearly seen, being understood from..." is not hard to
interpret; "see" and "understand" are synonyms here. If this confuses
you, a synonym is a a word that has the same meaning as another word.
I haven't studied the original Greek text (I'd be sort of presumptuous
to say I knew exactly what the author was saying here, reading only a
translation) but the Greek language has plenty of synonyms just like
the English language.
> Even though I am not the person this was intended for, I am glad I
> read it too.
Good to see there's still this feeling of goodwill. I don't mean to
get nasty; please don't take my words to be bitter or anything.
/? Peter Samuelson
James c Black
From - Rose, Crazy Little World
_Cold_Blue_Hill_
On a cold blue hill perhaps not far away
Stands a lonely man - he wants to do things his way
Life was getting hard - too much pain today
Life isn't easy so he'll check out his way
*
Yes he took his life into the unknown
What about his wife and kids?
What about the hope that Jesus Christ offered
What about the rest of them
Don't die this way
As the days go by our hearts will start to heal
Suicide a dead end
In this case sin did kill
*2x
(This song off this new release is right on target. Kind of
funny, not in the least, that this came out when it did.
Terrible thing. _Cold_Blue_Hill_... how stinkin pertanent!)
James________________________________________________
Jcbl...@mik.uky.edu
University of Kentucky College of Architecture CADLab
lil...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
> S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist) writes:
>
>>Hello? Why *would* an unbeliever have true hope? What does he/she have to
>>Christ is the only way, truth, and life.
>>I fail to understand...
>
> ANYTHING! That's not surprising. You're pathetic. I wish Cobain had found a
> way to take your ilk with him. Actually, partying with Cobain probably would
> have done all you small-minded, tight-sphinctered pinheads a world of good.
> spending eternity (f**k, five minutes even) around someone like you. I
> wouldn't be surprised if the straw that broke Cobain's will to live was a
> visit from a Jehovah's witness. Kurt probably closed the door and said,
> "That does it, I'm checking off this fuckin' planet."
Actually, closed minded anti-christion Bigots such as yourself are
pathetic. If you are to immature, wait, thats not right...most children know
more about life than you obviously do. If you cannot accept the possibily of
God, and present a valid point, then keep off the newsgroup.
> If there's any chance at all that heaven and hell exist, I hope I end up in
> the latter--I know that's where all the cool people will be. Arriving in
> heaven and finding it populated with your kind would be like arriving at a
> party that just ran out of beer; anybody with any sense at all would bail.
For your info, if you and your friends all end up in hell, you'll never
see any of them....to be forever alone is the worst possible hell...think about
it.
> Disclaimer: In so far as I know, these are not the opinions of my employer.
> I will, however, do what I can to change that.
The only thing you need to change is your attitude buddy. By the way,
all of us who care about your soul will be praying for it.
Flame away if you like.....
================================================================================
Randy Lilly (MarkPrice)
Lil...@muvms6.wvnet.edu
Marshall University, home of the THUNDERING HERD!
" With courage and determination, one can overcome ANY obstacle!"
William Mark Price...#25 Cleveland Cavaliers
================================================================================
Paul Moloney
>Just want to say, there are people on the net who delight in
>"invading" a newsgroup, say inflammatory things and start a
>flame war.
Look at the original posting. It was crossposted to _several_
newsgroups.
P.
--
moorcockdenislearypratchettdelasouliainmbanksneworderheathersu2batmanpjorourke
clive p a u l m o l o n e y "You can't have everything. Where would you put it?"
james dublin ireland http://www.scrg.cs.tcd.ie/scrg/guests/pmoloney.html
brownbladerunnersugarcubesjohnwooelectronicblaylockpowershiassenham'ncornpizza
Craig Anderson
here...
craig
Craig Anderson
Uh, guys? Matt? Phil? Justin and y'all? Could we move this off
the newsgroup please? It was amusing for awhile, but we've gotten way off
the mark here with the crossposts to the three different newsgroups and all.
This topic has obviously shifted from Nirvana to Cobain and God to Phil and
God, to Matt and Satan, and frankly, I don't see any relationship to r.m.cd
or r.m.christian.music, etc. Please don't fill my mailbox with this stuff
anymore. If you still want to discuss this, please use direct mail.
Matt Hicks
> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
No, I say, "I _know_ that there is no such thing as a God or any of the
assorted bullshit that goes along with this archaic notion."
>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
Actually I just deleted everything between the first quoted section and this
one. A quick glance showed me that it was just full of the same nonsense
that I've heard and seen from brainless sheep like yourself time and time
again. I'm sure you don't unquestioningly believe anything else you read
that was written 2000 years ago, why do you believe that remarkable work of
historical fiction known as the bible? Because a bunch of hypocrits who
claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun. The sooner you wake
up and learn to think for yourself, the better off you will be. I wish we
could return to the days when they fed Christians to the lions--that's
entertainment.
This will be _my_ last word on this topic--you people aren't worth my time.
Disclaimer: I do not speak for my employer, only for those lucky people who
have the good sense to agree with me.
--
John Eisenman
------From: pmol...@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)----------------
Look at the original posting. It was crossposted to _several_
newsgroups.
P.
----------------------------------------------------------------
-----From: S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life)----------------
In article <larrypCn...@netcom.com> lar...@netcom.com (Larry
Phelps) writes:
>From: lar...@netcom.com (Larry Phelps)
>Subject: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Date: Fri, 8 Apr 1994 22:17:06 GMT
> Well if anybody hasn't heard, Kurt Cobain is dead from a self
> inflicted gunshot wound to the head. It's a sad day in this
> world when someone such as Kurt looses all hope and commits
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
> suicide for whatever reasons he had...Although I wasn't
> a big fan of Nirvana, I still have to say that they did have
> a particular style of music that reached alot of today's
> young people...whether it was good or bad.....
>--
> _ _
> (_) _ ___ __ __ __ (_)
> | \ | | | | | | | | (
> | \ | |-- | | |__| | | \
> _ | \_| |___ |__| | \ |__| ___) _ lar...@netcom.com
> (_) \ ______/ (_)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Burrell Craig Neil
>In article <Qhe6ew_00...@andrew.cmu.edu> "Philip F. Gomez" <pg...@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.christian: 10-Apr-94 Re: Kurt Cobain
>>After reading some of these posts about Kurt Cobain's death, I have a
>>hard time believing that this is a Christian Bboard. I think some of us
>>should seriously reconsider calling ourselves Christian when we can't
>>even "weep with those who weep."
>
>What you're witnessing is an old, unhallowed tradition called "bait the
>Christians." My guess is that "Christian" is the *last* thing that many
>of those who have been posting on this topic would call themselves.
>
>I can't speak for everyone, but I'm sure that many of us feel saddened
>by Kurt's death. I know I do. I'll miss him as a talented songwriter
>and musician, and I grieve for his family and friends at the tragic
>waste.
>
>>May God comfort those who are truly saddened by this tragic death. And
>>to those who have expressed contempt to us who are sorry- no one is
>>impressed with your utter arrogance.
>
>Amen.
>
>Andy Whitman
>AT&T Network Systems
>Columbus, Ohio
>a...@cblph.att.com
I agree. I know that after a death like this there is a tendency for many,
particularly fans, to enter the `Kurt is god' syndrome, in which they
heap untold amounts of praise on the deceased and generally make him out
to be better than he really was ( see the Jim Morrison legend ). I suppose this is a natural reaction, but I will try to avoid it, even though I was a
listener of his music. The truth is that Kurt was an immensely talented
songwriter who was improving every album, and a man who, with an angry
slur and an overblown amplifier, captured the hearts of millions of my peers
in North America. But more importantly, he was a man. He was someone who
took his own life because he had lost hope in himself and his world and this
is a tragic event. Now I know that there are people dying all around the
world from starvation and wars, and I know I ought to feel the same pain
for them as I do for Kurt, and I really wish I could. I wish I wasn't so
desensitized to the suffering that people feel, and I wish I could put
my `tuition increase` or my `long walk` into perspective. But while I
struggle with these things, I really identify with Courtney and their
daughter, and I think we would all do well to remember them in our
prayers.
C.Burrell
Akira Lynn Bell
whole thing with KC and beleiving in Jesus may be a worthwhile topic. KC is of
interest to the music groups and believing in Jesus is of interest to the
Christian newsgroup. Remember, there are people of many different religions
reading these newsgroups who probably don't want to read about Jesus when they
subscribe to a general music newsgroup. And even though I am a Christian, I
find it borderline offensive to read these messages about "You MUST find Jesus"
So lets try to keep our discussions in the appropriate newsgroup.
Akira
mattman
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>Subject: Re: Matt Hicks (gosh, my own subject header!)
>Date: 11 Apr 94 23:25:31 GMT
>S107...@cedarville.edu (Justin Bailey) writes:
>> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>No, I say, "I _know_ that there is no such thing as a God or any of the
>assorted bullshit that goes along with this archaic notion."
>>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>Actually I just deleted everything between the first quoted section and this
>one. A quick glance showed me that it was just full of the same nonsense
>that I've heard and seen from brainless sheep like yourself time and time
>again. I'm sure you don't unquestioningly believe anything else you read
>that was written 2000 years ago, why do you believe that remarkable work of
>historical fiction known as the bible? Because a bunch of hypocrits who
>claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
>Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
>individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
>Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun. The sooner you wake
>up and learn to think for yourself, the better off you will be. I wish we
>could return to the days when they fed Christians to the lions--that's
>entertainment.
>This will be _my_ last word on this topic--you people aren't worth my time.
Oh no. please stay.
Beverly Keist
>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>Subject: Re: Matt Hicks (was: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead))
>Date: 11 Apr 1994 20:49:01 GMT
>Are you speaking from experience? What if I told you that God was the
>devil and that he only said things about Satan to make him look bad and
>hell was actually a place where everyone ate Cocoa Puffs all day and
>laughed at the schmucks who were fooled by the evil god? Not saying
>that I actually believe the above, but you really shouldn't say what
>Hell is and/or isn't, because the truth is, no one knows. Besides, what
>if he likes eternal torment?
Of course he isn't speaking from experience. He's speaking from the basis
of the Word of God, which is the standard for his (and my) beliefs. As for
whether or not he likes eternal torment, I guess we'll just have to wait and
see about that.
>>is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
>>with God. Also He is the only person to raise Himself from the dead and to
>Uh, David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God, and at least there is
>proof that he existed, and so far, no one has been able to prove that
>Jesus ever existed at all <to my knowledge>.
Actually, if you did some studying of history, you would find that there is
as much evidence to prove that Jesus Christ actually was a human being on
earth as there is to show that Abraham Lincoln lived. The question is, was
He who He said He was, that is, the Son of God? There are three
possible answers to this question.
1) He was a lunatic, or a madman. If this was the case, why did so many
people follow him to the DEATH? And why are people still following him 2000
years later?
2) He was a liar. If He did lie about this assertion, why would he have
let Himself be crucified? He could have easily denied the accusations,
because at all of His trials He was asked if He was truly the Son of God.
3) He is Lord. Personally, I accept this one. It's up to you to decide
for yourself where you stand.
>>still be living today. Many people witness this event, and they wrote it
>>down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
>Like I said before, do you have proof Jesus ever existed, and do you
>have proof that if he existed he rose from the dead? Many people wrote
>down that the there were gods on Mt. Olympus and that they interacted
>quite a bit more often with mortals. Does that mean they existed?
>Many people wrote down that there are four true elements. Does this
>mean there is? Your logic breaks down quickly, my friend.
See above.
>>go on for the rest of your life without being told this. I know that what I
>>say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
>>understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
>I have yet to see any evidence of any god's (or gods') existence(s), and
>your little spiel above added nothing to my understanding of the guillibility
>of those who follow religions.
In that case, I'm really sorry for you. I wish you could read _Evidence
That Demands a Verdict_ by Josh McDowell. Maybe that would help clarify
some things. The author felt the same as you.
>>"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal
>>power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
>>has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
>How can someone see something invisible <which by definition means it
>cannot be seen>?
That verse is referring to the creation of the universe, which gives
evidence of God, although that is not the only means by which He reveals
Himself to us.
>>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>Even though I am not the person this was intended for, I am glad I read
>it too.
So am I.
>>In Christ,
>>Justin Bailey (s107...@cedarville.edu)
> - Necromancer
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
|S109...@CEDARVILLE.EDU | good for something." |
| | -Thoreau |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
| "Don't judge a man by his opinions, but by what |
| his opinions have made him." -G.C. Lichtenberg |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Steven Harris
Necromancer <shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>Uh, David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God, and at least there is
>proof that he existed, and so far, no one has been able to prove that
>Jesus ever existed at all <to my knowledge>.
To supplement your knowledge, it is impossible to repeat history to videotape
it to show you what really happened. So people wrote what happened down.
Brilliant. And as for the claim that Jesus never existed, you must
realize that even skeptics of who Jesus was have to concede from the
unbiased evidence (Josephus, etc.) that Jesus walked the earth. If you
want to say that the Romans who were expert killers let Jesus slip through
the cracks so he could revive in a tomb and remove the heavy stone to
fake a resurrection, then you can believe that absurdity. But to deny
that Jesus even existed is to completely ignore all historical evidence.
Even unbelieving, liberal scholars believe in Jesus as being a real person.
I recommend you read some books on it, especially the bible.
James Lynch
Just wanted to mention that in all I've seen of Josephus, he never mentions
a single individual Jesus (though he sometimes is under the impression he is)
just the youthful gang of early Christians, who were beign persecuted all
over the place. My understanding is that he and Jesus were not quite
contemporaries (which is why historians say he mistook the group for the
individual, he calls Christos or something like that). Also, I hardly
think suggesting one read the bible is the way to go for objective history.
Scholar and Fool
>I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>that can change your life?
just wanted to remind everyone that there is a lot of "incredibly stilted
and lifeless" music in the non-Christian realm as well. And also to let
everyone know that there is indeed Christian punk, industrial, rave/techno,
speed metal, thrash, etc that is "full of conviction, passion, and the kind
of energy that can change your life."
$ % & . # * it's hard to fall asleep / when I hate the life I lead / and
@ % # $ ' % # it's hard to face the day / 'cause the night's not far away /
& # & &@&#$ & cry...cry myself to sleep / it's easier telling lies / when
# $ $ # I'm dying inside / than to open up my heart / and have it torn
* #&*%$%*#$ * apart / cry...cry myself to sleep... // Undercover _Branded_
Steve Mooradian
I'll just have to find out right now.... *evil grin*
--
*****************************************************************************
STEPHEN MOORADIAN ----- Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute ----- moo...@rpi.edu
*****************************************************************************
-= Just your average guitar-whaling, dittohead, cadet, nuclear engineer,
get-out-of-my-face, hacking, politically INcorrect, raw but lovable guy =-
Out of Order
Quoth ly...@corona.math.vt.edu (James Lynch):
> Also, I hardly think suggesting one read the bible is the way to go
> for objective history.
Praytell, what would you read for objective history then? What is
different, from an historical perspective, between the Bible and other
works of the same time? Why the bias against a writing that happens
not only to be historical but religious? I've heard that the Bible is
better verified (i.e. we have earlier, more reliable manuscripts of it)
by a significant factor than most contemporary works, probably
including Josephus (don't know for sure on him, though).
/? Peter
Glenn M. Poorman
|> Jesus is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God,
|> thus equal with God.
Actually, i've run into several people on the bus who claimed to be
the son of god.
--
=========================================================================
Glenn M. Poorman Ford Motor Company
Rm 2228, Bldg #3 Phone: (313) 33-73316
20000 Rotunda Dr. Fax : (313) 39-08817
Dearborn, MI. 48121 Email: poo...@cadcam.pms.ford.com
=========================================================================
Space Ace
> Read in Proverbs
> "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."
> 'Nuff said
>
And that, my friend, is so tragic, that if you read the rest of the Big Book
you'll realize that it is precisely why God had to send His only One, that we may
be fools no more!!!!
Wish Curt could have read between the lines of human failure and hypocrisy and realized
that Christ is not the one who wanted to do away with him.
Fool? Yes!
Different? No!
Disillusioned? Probably?
Had an excuse? None of us do!
Do I feel for him? Honestly, yes!
Puts things in perspective for all of us. I for one will not speculate on the fate
of his soul as I wasn't there when he died, but there's a reason for telling the Good News,
and Good News means good news, if you get my drift.
"Let me be the one to tell a simple story,
They wouldn't hear it any other way..."
Space Ace
Steve Pordon (Legion)
In other words, "*Nobody* expects the Spanish Inquisition!" <torture, maim>
'nuff said.
-Legion
--
_,----------------------------------------------------------------------,_
| "I escaped from that accursed box beneath the ground / I have returned |
| from the dead / And there is nothing I cannot do / [...] / A halo of |
:_____________flies is my deadly blessing" -- the Accused________________:
Brian Baute
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>Date: 10 Apr 94 21:04:24 GMT
>sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (J.P. Paulus) writes:
>
>>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>>other religions.
>>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>>without Jesus.
>
>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>that can change your life?
>
>
>
>--
>___________________________________________________________________________
>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
Matt,
While I agree that there is a *LOT* of Christian music out there
that seems to be "as inspired as a detergent jingle", you are failing to see
the whole picture. There are also a *LOT* of Christian groups that are very
open, honest, and passionate about their faith. Michael Card and Keith
Green are two of my personal favorites. My guess is that your musical
tastes lean more towards a heavier sound though. Try Mortal. An incredible
sound and even better lyrics. The sad thing is that they're breaking up.
Why? They are tired of dealing with the Christian music "industry" and so
many people in it for just the money. That shows me a lot about Mortal and
why they're in the music biz--to glorify God. Luckily, the guys from Mortal
are now doing some production work. Their first project is for the group "
Starflyer 59" on Tooth and Nail records. I haven't been able to give it a
listen yet, but I've heard great things about it, both musically and
lyrically.
One more tidbit of advice: don't make a decision about Christ based
only on how you see His IMPERFECT followers(which we all are). Please
realize that NOBODY can perfectly emulate Christ--but many of us try to the
best of our abilities. Don't look solely at our actions--look at our
spirits. More importantly, look for His Spirit. I'll be praying for you.
-------------------------------------------------
Brian Baute(ejb...@indsvax1.indstate.edu)
Peter Dutton
>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>as you was sterile.
Yeah, we need more people like you instead.
>Why is that christian music is so
>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>that can change your life?
Opinion, opinion, opinion.
"Change your life?" Music isn't that important. Get a grip.
Superficiality sometimes seems surprisingly deep.
Later,
Peter!
Douglas C Pearson
the newsgroups in question or not, but i much prefer e-mail to posting for crap
like this anyway. hopefully you don't mind if an intellectual Christian
(believe it or not, such animals do exist!) takes on some of the points you
raised in your last post. and hopefully you won't get too scared if i agree
with you on a few points, too!
In article <matt.766106731@groucho>, Matt Hicks <ma...@unidata.ucar.edu> wrote:
>S107...@cedarville.edu (Justin Bailey) writes:
>
>>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>
>Actually I just deleted everything between the first quoted section and this
>one. A quick glance showed me that it was just full of the same nonsense
>that I've heard and seen from brainless sheep like yourself time and time
>again.
if this is of any comfort, the minute i saw that post, i too said "like this
guy hasn't read the same crap 5000 times before!" we Christians can be so
absolutely _stupid_ sometimes...thinking that if we rephrase the same
evangelical garbage slightly differently you will say "oh, i see now!!" and
instantly bow down and accept Jesus as your saviour. you know, and i know too,
that it just doesn't work that way. if i'm going to convince you that a book
written 2000 years ago is true, then i've got to do it on your terms.
> I'm sure you don't unquestioningly believe anything else you read
>that was written 2000 years ago, why do you believe that remarkable work of
>historical fiction known as the bible?
the answer is, for myself, is that i _didn't_ belive it until i challenged it
on historical terms. it all checks out, believe it or not. Christianity is
the only religion on the face of this planet who claims that its head (namely,
Christ) is still alive; and, what's more, has actually experienced death and
defeated it. that's really the only aspect of the whole religion that you have
to take on faith. and the fact that, after that resurrection occured, a small
insignificant sect of the jewish religion exploded from 500 members to roughly
25,000-50,000 within a matter of weeks is really difficult to dismiss as pure
coincidence.
there's a pair of books called _evidence_that_demands_a_verdict_, compiled from
about 15 different doctoral dissertations by a man named josh mcdowell, that's
really worth looking at if you want an intellectual defense of Christianity.
> Because a bunch of hypocrits who
>claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
>Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
>individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
>Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun.
unfortunately, i can't argue with this one. you're absolutely, dead-on
correct. over the past 2000 years, the church has been at best an absolutely
mediocre reflection of the Saviour, and more often than not has been piss-poor,
to be frank. all i can say is don't dismiss God just because those who take
His name could care less about how He is represented. true believers are out
here. we're just a pain in the ass to find, that's all. 8-)
> The sooner you wake
>up and learn to think for yourself, the better off you will be. I wish we
>could return to the days when they fed Christians to the lions--that's
>entertainment.
i can't say that i agree with the last statement [as you might expect 8-)] but
you're right about most - aw, heck with it, ALL - Christians needing to learn
to think for themselves. starting with the evangelicals first. as most
everything you've said to date supports, the "evangelical" church is doing a
disastrous job evangelizing the ones we believe need Jesus the most. you're
raising awfully good questions, and nobody is answering them...in fact, most
folks just want to sweep the questions under the rug.
>This will be _my_ last word on this topic--you people aren't worth my time.
well, sorry to want to stretch out the topic, but i hope this _has_ been worth
your time. if not, let me know and i'll lay off, simple as that. i can lead
you to water, but if you don't want to drink, i'll put my energy into something
else [like actually doing the work i'm supposed to be doing instead of blowing
off all day writing e-mail! 8-)]
but if you want to discuss this further, let me know. as my boss can attest,
there's nothing i like more than a good religious/theological discussion (or
argument!).
>Disclaimer: I do not speak for my employer, only for those lucky people who
>have the good sense to agree with me.
i maintain my disclaimer: ohio state would do much better to ignore me, as far
as i know.
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- happily married
take my fist and hold it in Your hand take my rage and bury my pain/prayerchain
Necromancer
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yes. Besides being a bit biased, the Bible also is incorrect on the age
of the Earth and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there
is enough water on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the
Earth with water. Plus, two animals of every species would be
impossible to fit on any size of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool <not to mention the fact
that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some pretty heavy incest to
repopulate the earth>.
- Necromancer
Steven Harris
James Lynch <ly...@corona.math.vt.edu> wrote:
>individual, he calls Christos or something like that). Also, I hardly
>think suggesting one read the bible is the way to go for objective history.
Why is it that the notion of God revealing himself to men and them writing it
down is so impossible for people to believe. An all powerful God would
indicate His ability to reveal himself to a few and have them write it down so
we could know who he is. Agnostics are right to think that we can't be sure
about who God is UNLESS God choses to reveal himself to us. Maybe you
can't take the bible on faith and maybe you think these writers teaching
a higher standard of morality were making up lies about what really happened,
but you can not say for sure that it is not God's revelation and a fairly
account of history. Modern thought presupposes that there is no God and
therefore all events recorded in literature that are super-natural are fiction.
Your assumptions have pinned you in a corner that you can never believe
anything that can't be experimentally proven. You must assume that the stories
of Jesus came from the religion of Christianity. Where did the reilgion come
from? It makes much more sense to see how clearly the religion formed as the
results of what happened in Galilee.
Douglas C Pearson
>i don't know if the post i made in response to your first post got through to
>the newsgroups in question or not, but i much prefer e-mail to posting for
well, as it should be quite obvious from reading the first two lines, that was
NOT intended to go out over the net. my apologies, and i also apologize if the
rough language in the post offended anyone as well. that had an intended
audience, and it wasn't a believing audience.
but you guys know what happened as a result? i got a VERY nice reply from mr.
hicks thanking my for a thoughtful post! he was fairly impressed with the
points i raised, and he was glad to know that there are people out here who
question our faith. (and matt, if you're reading this too, keep an eye out for
posts by a cat named andy whitman. i think we'd all agree his are by far the
most thought-provoking of the thought-provoking.) unfortunately, the
conclusion was "i'll believe the way i want to belive, and i hope you respect
my right to do so." which i do, but it doesn't mean my hope for his salvation
is any less.
the point is, a seed was planted. the man saw the type of Christian he doesn't
see too often, and i pray that he saw a little bit of Christ in me, too.
to be quite honest, i am VERY disappointed (not to mention a little p.o.'ed) at
the majority of the responses to mr. hicks' venture on r.m.c. the points
raised were the same kind of evangelical garbage that was always raised when
something of this sort happens over here..."oh, don't you know that Jesus died
for your sins and you can have new life in Him if you would only belive..."
folks, he's heard that too many times for him to count, and quite frankly, he
doesn't buy it. and if the keep shoving the same (shaving cream) down his
throat, he never will buy it.
if you're going to witness, you have to witness on the terms of the unbeliever.
if he has questions about why Christians would be the single most murderous
religion on the planet, dang it, ANSWER THE QUESTION! don't sweep it under the
rug with a bunch of Christian-ese. that only turns him off more to the Lord.
and if you don't know the answer to the question, get off your butt and study
your history and get in the Word. God may be using the unbeliever's question
to teach _you_ something, too!
look, i'm sorry for getting back on my soapbox (although it only happens
anymore when driven by a significant experience, so may this is God using me
and i shouldn't apologize). but rebukes are due here. there needs to be a
whole lot more love, a whole lot more thought, and a whole lot more prayer put
into posts on this board, especially posts from unbelievers, and a whole lot
less of the knee-jerk, i-can-solve-this-guy's-problems-in-my-own-human-power
stuff. it won't work. God is soverign. any work in human power will fail.
only what God has ordained will succeed.
everybody understand? good. now, let's be good stewards of our newsgroup.
Chad Mercer
>the point is, a seed was planted. the man saw the type of Christian he doesn't
>see too often, and i pray that he saw a little bit of Christ in me, too.
I sure did.
>to be quite honest, i am VERY disappointed (not to mention a little p.o.'ed) at
>the majority of the responses to mr. hicks' venture on r.m.c. the points
>raised were the same kind of evangelical garbage that was always raised when
>something of this sort happens over here..."oh, don't you know that Jesus died
>for your sins and you can have new life in Him if you would only belive..."
>folks, he's heard that too many times for him to count, and quite frankly, he
>doesn't buy it. and if the keep shoving the same (shaving cream) down his
>throat, he never will buy it.
>if you're going to witness, you have to witness on the terms of the unbeliever.
>if he has questions about why Christians would be the single most murderous
>religion on the planet, dang it, ANSWER THE QUESTION! don't sweep it under the
>rug with a bunch of Christian-ese. that only turns him off more to the Lord.
>and if you don't know the answer to the question, get off your butt and study
>your history and get in the Word. God may be using the unbeliever's question
>to teach _you_ something, too!
Sir, I believe you did an excellent job. Your e-mail/post (*grin*) was well
thought out, and timely. You are to be commended. (Now don't let it go to
your head! *grin*)
>look, i'm sorry for getting back on my soapbox (although it only happens
>anymore when driven by a significant experience, so may this is God using me
>and i shouldn't apologize). but rebukes are due here. there needs to be a
>whole lot more love, a whole lot more thought, and a whole lot more prayer put
>into posts on this board, especially posts from unbelievers, and a whole lot
>less of the knee-jerk, i-can-solve-this-guy's-problems-in-my-own-human-power
>stuff. it won't work. God is soverign. any work in human power will fail.
>only what God has ordained will succeed.
I agree wholeheartedly. People need to hear God, not man. God is a whole lot
smarter than we are...
>everybody understand? good. now, let's be good stewards of our newsgroup.
Good point. (From those who are given much, much will be required. We've got
a lot of traffic, and thus, we should have a lot of traffic getting people
saved?!? Hmm...)
Have a great day, and God bless.
>"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- happily married
>take my fist and hold it in Your hand take my rage and bury my pain/prayerchain
=============================================================================
| Thak, the Drool Factory E-mail : th...@ksu.ksu.edu |
| |
| Student Consultant, Computing & Network Services, Kansas State University |
=============================================================================
Daniel Pugsley
>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>Date: 12 Apr 1994 18:45:51 GMT
>ly...@corona.math.vt.edu (James Lynch) writes:
> - Necromancer
Evidence has shown that the earth is only approximately 10,000 years old.
Remember when the first men landed on the moon? The reason the ship had
those long poles was because they thought the earth was millions of years
old and therefore there would be feet of dust in the moon. guess what, only
three inches. Read the Bible and find out how big the arc really was, I'm
sure you'll realize that it'd be big enough to hold two of every species
that wouldn't survive in the water or air. As for where the water that you
think couldn't exist, try going down. There's probably as much water in the
ground as in the ocean.
Nirvana. I am saddened by
his death, and even moreso by the thought of what he's possibly going
through now. All his life he was depressed and sad, looking for something
to fill the void in his life. He missed out. The key to Hell's torture is
not the burning or pain, it's the fact that you will never have a loving
relationship with God. For as you rejected Him, He then rejected you. As
for the idea that you'll hang out with your friends and get trashed and what
not, I only hope you aren't serious.
I realize you have a hard time identifying with Christians, and a lot of
times, so do I. I go to a Christian College and am misunderstood a lot by
fellow Christians because I can see and empathize with both sides of the
picture, yours as well as mine, for I wasn't always a Christian. I don't
hold to, nor "belong" to any religion, for religion was made by man. I hold
to Christ. I am a Christian. If anybody wants to talk, you can write me.
I'm not going to go into a sermon or anything because before I was saved, I
felt just like you when people would shove Christianity down my throat. And
if you shove something down somebody's throat that they don't want, they'll
vomit it back and never want it. I just hope I've sparked an interest.
Have a good day.
Dan Pugsley
s103...@cedarville.edu
James A. Wheatley
Personally, I still miss Marvin Gaye the most.
Jim Wheatley "When all is said and done,
Auburn University, Alabama more is said than done."
---Houston Kennedy
whea...@eng.auburn.edu
Wasted Life
>From: ji...@echo.asd.sgi.com (John Eisenman)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Date: 12 Apr 1994 01:45:13 GMT
>It wasn't the original post, it was the second post. See below:
No. I posted the second post. All I did was follow the first, and I know
that I'm not the one who originally cross posted it.
--
Sig file? We don't need no steenking sig file!
But we have one. :)
--
Beverly Keist
>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>Date: 11 Apr 94 23:25:31 GMT
>S107...@cedarville.edu (Justin Bailey) writes:
>> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>No, I say, "I _know_ that there is no such thing as a God or any of the
>assorted bullshit that goes along with this archaic notion."
Can you inform us of how you got to be so enlightened?
Virgil
>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>Subject: Re: Matt Hicks (was: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead))
>Date: 12 Apr 1994 18:45:51 GMT
>ly...@corona.math.vt.edu (James Lynch) writes:
> - Necromancer
Heh...heh ...heh...heh......etc. I expected someone to start this.
However, this is a MUSIC newsgroup, but I feel like posting something about
whatcha said.
1) Read Genesis and try to see that MOST of the water came from
WITHIN the earth. *sic*
2) Yes, two of every LAND animals would fit in the ark very well.
If you average all the animals to the sizxe of a sheep, all the pairs that
noah would need to get in would fit in just two floors of the ark, and the
third one would be for noah and his family as a living room. :)
3) What is incest? What was incest? When was incest defined as
wrong?....etc....
Have phun thinking about - and God bless you with wisdom to see Him
as a creator and mighty one....
_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ ____ _/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/_/_/
Susan L Lyon
: > Because a bunch of hypocrits who
: >claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
: >Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
: >individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
: >Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun.
: unfortunately, i can't argue with this one. you're absolutely, dead-on
: correct. over the past 2000 years, the church has been at best an absolutely
: mediocre reflection of the Saviour, and more often than not has been piss-poor,
: to be frank. all i can say is don't dismiss God just because those who take
: His name could care less about how He is represented. true believers are out
: here. we're just a pain in the ass to find, that's all. 8-)
i must vehemently disagree with you here. i know that you protestants
have a hard time accepting anything related to the catholic church as
truly "christian" but why don't you read a bit about the saints, the
men and women who had radical faith and devotion to God throughout the
2000 years since Christ. i'm not saying that everything that the church
as done has been particularly praiseworthy, but i would hardly say
that "the church has been at best an absolutely mediocre reflection of
the Saviour"...of course, come to think of it, can imperfect beings
ever form a perfect church (one which would be an accurate reflection of
the Saviour)?
love,
susan
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ "it's not low-life + from susan: + "i'd like to drop +
+ it's just people + mozzer@ + my trousers +
+ having a good time" + umich.edu + to the queen..." +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Beverly Keist
>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>Subject: Re: Matt Hicks (was: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead))
>Date: 12 Apr 1994 18:45:51 GMT
>ly...@corona.math.vt.edu (James Lynch) writes:
>>Just wanted to mention that in all I've seen of Josephus, he never mentions
>>a single individual Jesus (though he sometimes is under the impression he is)
>>just the youthful gang of early Christians, who were beign persecuted all
>>over the place. My understanding is that he and Jesus were not quite
>>contemporaries (which is why historians say he mistook the group for the
>>individual, he calls Christos or something like that). Also, I hardly
>>think suggesting one read the bible is the way to go for objective history.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Yes. Besides being a bit biased, the Bible also is incorrect on the age
>of the Earth and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there
>is enough water on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the
>Earth with water.
Uh, the earth is comprised of about 70% water and about 30% land...hmmm.
>Plus, two animals of every species would be
>impossible to fit on any size of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
Not really. Think about this: how many species live or can live in water?
Those would not have needed to be in the ark. Also, why take full-grown
animals when you can take younger ones and cut down on space? Makes sense
to me.
>and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool <not to mention the fact
>that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some pretty heavy incest to
>repopulate the earth>.
At that time, since it was so close to creation, the genes were purer, which
allowed them to repopulate without problems.
> - Necromancer
green...@cobra.uni.edu
> Matt,
>
> Before I start I would like to say that I am not trying to argue with
> you, or flam you. I am writing this because even though I don't know you, I
> care about you and everyone else out there who feel the same way that you do.
> Please consider what I say, and lets carry on a peaceful conversation. Well
> here it goes...
>
> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
> to believe that all three of these things exist. If they do, then where
> will you fit into the picture. You say that you would rather go to hell.
> Let me tell you that this is a big mistake. Hell is deffinately not going
> to be a place to part. It will be a place of eternal torment in the Lake of
> Fire. Those who are in hell will surely regret not following Christ. Jesus
> is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
> down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
> say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
> understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
>
> power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
> has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
>
>
sensibility on this. I pray that this guy comes to the Lord. Evidently, some
person has hurt him who has had the Christian facade on.
green...@cobra.uni.edu
> S107...@cedarville.edu (Justin Bailey) writes:
>
>> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>
> assorted bullshit that goes along with this archaic notion."
>
>>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>
> Actually I just deleted everything between the first quoted section and this
> one. A quick glance showed me that it was just full of the same nonsense
> that I've heard and seen from brainless sheep like yourself time and time
> again.
Speak for yourself sir! Does this sound familiar: "blankety blank blank. you
blank blanks! You are nothing but a bunch of stupid, pinheads, blah blah,
blank, blank blankety." I will leave it to this list to determine who is
brainless.
I'm sure you don't unquestioningly believe anything else you read
> that was written 2000 years ago, why do you believe that remarkable work of
> historical fiction known as the bible?
Which has been proven by the way. The historical authenticity and the
geographical authenticity are there.
> Because a bunch of hypocrits who
A hypocrite is someone who says something and does another. Can you prove that
that is what this list consists of? Prove it! You don't know the difference
between Jehovahs Witnesses and Christians, what is to say you would know what a
hypocrite is either.
> claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
What makes you think we are Nazi's. ARe roots go back to the jewish faith
before Christ. You don't have the slightest idea about what you are talking
about.
> Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
> individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
> Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun.
Try Bill Clinton.
The sooner you wake
> up and learn to think for yourself, the better off you will be.
So what do you suggest we do, become like you? A stomping, snorting, raving,
blaspheming, cussing person who reports inaccuracy after inaccuracy.
I wish we
> could return to the days when they fed Christians to the lions--that's
> entertainment.
Tell us, would you ever kill a Christian?
>
> This will be _my_ last word on this topic--you people aren't worth my time.
And neither are you worth our time. You were the one who posted here to begin
with!
Virgil
>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>Subject: Re: Matt Hicks (was: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead))
>sha...@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu (Steven Harris) writes:
>I will admit that it would appear that Jesus did exist as a _mortal_,
>not as the "son of god". I don't think that the Romans let him slip
>through the cracks <they were very efficient at what they did>, but I
>don't think he was "resurrected". I believe that this incident was
>either fabricated, exaggerated, or misinterpreted by those who wrote the
>Bible. I have read the Bible <all of it, but that was a while ago>.
> - Necromancer
Why would you think that we misinterpret his ressurection? We have
the written records of LOTS of people that actually saw Him after
ressurection. That is an accountable reason to believe His resurection...
Burrell Craig Neil
>S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist) writes:
>
>>In article <2ocd3t$9...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>
>I have yet to see "God" say anything. The Bible was written by early
>Christians and not by "God" itself. And if you believe that the Bible
>is totally correct, then you have a lot to learn. The world is most
>definitely not six millenia old and there is scientific proof to back
>this up.
This is, I believe, a popular misconception that for some reason has
been attributed to the church, and of course is not correct. The earth
is well over 6000 years old, as any self-respecting geologist
or physicist( ie. me ) will attest, and there is evidence to suggest it is
much, much older (4.5 billion years?). However, you are mistaken in
believing that the Bible dates the earth at 6000 years. In fact, the
Bible doesn't put a date on it at all. It says, 'In the beginning God
created the heavens and the earth' and then we are introduced to Adam
and Eve. This would lead many to conclude that God created the universe
and then the next day he created Adam and Eve ( read: in the next 24
hours ), but there is really no reason to believe that is the correct
interpretation.
Also, many scientists look at the description of creation and they laugh
at the absurdity of the entire universe, the earth, and all living things
being created in `6 days` as Genesis states (I believe `a pile of rubbish`
was the phrase my professor used, quicly followed by a mock apology of
`oops, not supposed to offend anyone` ). I would agree with them, not
because I don't think God could do it, but because I don't believe he
would. After all, we are looking at some stars as they were 10-15
billion years ago, we are dating rocks from billions of years ago, and
we have paleological records from 250 million years ago. Why would God
create the earth in 4000 BC and then send galaxies speeding away at the
incredible velocities we observe today? Is he trying to trick us? Is he
getting a good laugh at our stupidity? Well, probably ( about the
stupidity part ). I personally believe ( without any scriptural references
to back me up ) that the reference to 'days' in Genesis is actually referring
to eras of development in the history of the universe. If you study it,
you'll find the creations on each day coincide correctly with the
theory we have developed. The Bible often uses symbolism and metaphor
in the writing, so I don't find this interpretation too much of a stretch.
I believe in the Big Bang expansionary model of the universe, and
yet I also believe in creation. Some may be crying foul at this point,
accusing me riding the fence because, after all, creationism and secular
science stand diametrically opposed to one another, right? Well, I
don't think so. The `church` ( ie. the established religious organization )
has been ignorant of science ever since Aristotle, and it is still
unwilling to lose some of it's beloved hypotheses. You see, as a Christian,
I was understandably troubled when all the evidence for the BB was being
stored up, so I decided to check it out for myself. My first thoughts were
that it was obviously a crock. After all, the whole idea of the
universe springing into being from nothing and then matter being
magically created seemed like a proposal from `Physicists United by
Hallucinogens'( pardon the spelling). But lo and behold, they actually
knew what they were talking about. Quantum mechanics and relativity
predict nearly everything we observe today would come about as natural
consequences of the BB. The actual question of what caused the big bang
and what happened in the 10^(-43) seconds immediately following is so
far out of our grasp, due to the breakdown of general relativity and the
absence of a quantum theory of gravity.
So, being convinced of the validity of the theory to testable
limits, I proceeded to look at the initial conditions which must have
been present in order to create the universe we observe today. This, my
friend, is where I see evidence of God in creation. The exquisite
fine tuning of the forces, the matter-antimatter ratios, the relative
particle masses, and hundreds of other observable characteristics demanded
such extreme precision that any chance of such a universe springing
to life is astronomically small, and by all statistical laws, non-existant.
So this is what I believe, take it or leave it. God set the big bang off,
all the while knowing what the result would be, and allowed the
physical laws which he created to lead naturally to the formation of the
sun, the earth, and untimately us, and even me.
Concerning the problem of biological evolution, I have several
major qualms, but those are probably left untouched for today. I imagine
there will be some angry folks demanding we `take this somewhere else!`,
but for now I'm glad I had the chance to present my case and hopefully
clear up some preconcieved notions you may have had. I'm glad you're
questioning what you hear, and I would encourage you to dig up some
of these facts for yourself if you're really interested.
>>That verse is referring to the creation of the universe, which gives
>>evidence of God, although that is not the only means by which He reveals
>>Himself to us.
>
>How exactly does that give evidence of a god <if you are speaking of
>evolutionary theories>? If you are speaking of creationistic theories,
>please explain to me why you believe in that theory <which, if true,
>would certainly prove a god exists>.
>>
>>|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
>
> - Necromancer
Well, see above. I would agree with Beverly that I see evidence of God
in nature. I have often walked beneath a cover of stars or a bright
blue sky and been filled with wonder. It's often in
times like that when I feel closest to my Creator, and am amazed at
the thought of his love for little old me. There's really no sensation
like it.
Now, how to relate this to music?
...that gaps a little too large even for me. Apologies to everyone.
Craig Burrell
Necromancer
>I usually don't like to respond to posts like this, but I can't stand to see
>this kind of post go unanswered (which I'm sure it won't be).
>Necromancer writes:
>>Yes. Besides being a bit biased,
>Who or what history source isn't biased? Only one written by someone who
>knows everything...
Good point. However, I'd have to say the Bible is more biased than
most.
>>the Bible also is incorrect on the age of the Earth
>If all of the different scientific dating methods are looked at as
>being equal (which they usually aren't, by creationists or evolutionists),
>there is no"correct" age of the earth (i.e. they all point to different
>dates, from 4000 to 25 billion).
The accepted age of the earth <by most astrophysicists and geologists>
is about 4.5 billion years old. I have never heard a figure larger than
5 billion. However, I have heard the universe's age quoted at anywhere
from 6000 years <if you go by the Bible> to 20 billion.
>>and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there is enough water
>>on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the Earth with water.
>Think again. Remember that the topology of the earth wasn't necessarily the
>same back then.
Yes, but Mt. Ararat was around then at least, and it isn't exactly a
small hill. There is a limit to how much the surface can change in a
few thousand years. The accepted theory is that Noah's Ark is actually
the story of the creation of the Mediterranean, as most peoples near the
Mediterranean have this legend, not only the Hebrews.
>>Plus, two animals of every species would be impossible to fit on any size
>>of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
>I don't think you mean that an ark "as large as the Earth" could only hold
>two of every species now in existence. There are obviously more than two of
>every species presently on the earth. Also, keep in mind that weren't as
>many species in Noah's time as there are now.
True, but still, how long would Noah last with seventy bazillion
different species of insects and such. Besides, if you don't believe in
evolution, there should be as many <or more> species then as there are
today.
>>and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool
>That's an interesting statement considering that evolution assumes that
>one creature is a big enough gene pool.
I should clarify this. Two creatures is not a large enough gene pool
for species that reproduce by sexual reproduction. Prokaryotes,
Eukaryotes, and other one-celled life does need only one creature for a
gene pool because they reproduce asexually. I believe the minimum gene
pool for humans is 250.
>><not to mention the fact that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some
>pretty heavy incest to repopulate the earth>.
>Actually, the sin of incest didn't come into existence until Moses' time,
>which was considerably later than Noah. Cousins marrying cousins (or
>brothers marrying sisters, in Adam's time) was legit before God gave the
>law. It sounds strange to us now, but hey...
Not saying it was a sin, I'm saying it would twist their genes something
fierce and give all their children some pretty wicked deformities,
retardation, and other genetic problems.
>The objective of this post is not to start a debate on origins, but to show
>that you can find evidence to prove whatever you want, as shown in the
>original post, as well as in my post. It depends on your presuppositions.
>If you presuppose an infinite God (as is obvious to me), no creation,
>miracle, or ressurection is too far-fetched to believe.
Of course, if I say a two thousand foot tall cream pie created the
universe and then wiped all traces of its existence, neither of us can
prove a damn thing.
>> - Necromancer
>Peace to all...
>-Phil Calvert
--
Steve Hilberg <Necromancer> "Only the insane have enough strength
<shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu> enough to prosper. Only those who
prosper can truly judge what is sane."
- Proverb
Necromancer
>In article <2oeq8v$r...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>ly...@corona.math.vt.edu (James Lynch) writes:
>>Yes. Besides being a bit biased, the Bible also is incorrect on the age
>>of the Earth and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there
>>is enough water on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the
>>Earth with water.
>Uh, the earth is comprised of about 70% water and about 30% land...hmmm.
Uh, no. The current surface is about 70% water. The earth itself is
mostly rock. The point I am making is that the flood supposedly
submerged _all_ the land, which includes every mountain. That is a
_lot_ of water.
>>Plus, two animals of every species would be
>>impossible to fit on any size of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
>Not really. Think about this: how many species live or can live in water?
>Those would not have needed to be in the ark. Also, why take full-grown
>animals when you can take younger ones and cut down on space? Makes sense
>to me.
What about the food for the animals? Plus, wouldn't a 40 day flood kill
every plant in existence? And are you aware of how many species of land
animal there are? I think there are at least one hundred thousand
insect species alone. That is a _lot_ of bugs, buddy.
>>and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool <not to mention the fact
>>that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some pretty heavy incest to
>>repopulate the earth>.
>At that time, since it was so close to creation, the genes were purer, which
>allowed them to repopulate without problems.
What the hell is a "pure" gene? The fact is that their genes all were
extremely similar. "Purity" has nothing to do with it. All the small
recessive genes would be used and they would all have weird kids.
>> - Necromancer
>|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
Logan Shaw
> Actually, i've run into several people on the bus who claimed to be
> the son of god.
"And many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ'.
Do not believe them."
- Jesus Christ
Ding. One point for the Bible being accurate.
Adios,
Logan
--
"A Southwester in the yard / invested with the garden / in camps of
concentration of the tall lilacs / to peel the dust off purple arbor.
Time is not the main thought / from under the rain wrought / from roots
that brought us coots to hoot and haul us back to the prime ordeal.
Dust off Pearl Harbor time."
- Van Dyke Parks
Brian Murphey Connell
I would have to say that your rebuke is to a good extent
unwarrented. Yes, there are those who witness at a more
"intellectual" level perhaps, but to say that God cannot use
any one of these posts is to believe in a very small God. It
is often the weak, bumbling Christian who will see someone come
to Christ, simply so that God can demonstrate that absolutely
none of this comes from our own power. After years of
intensive studies to answer just about every question I could
think of, it was in five minutes of bumbling through a 4 laws
on the spur of the moment that someone finally came to Christ
with me. This was someone who had grown up in the church and
rejected it. Yes, this means he'd heard to 2000 times before.
I think you perhaps should consider getting off of your
soapbox, though I no you don't intend it to be like that. Let
God speak the words to people's hearts, and Matt will hear them.
To tell you the truth, with the exception of a few inflammatory
posts, I was about to commend people for their concern for Matt
and their responses to him.
Let God speak through you, and don't concern yourself with how
He works through others. Any way you looks at it, Christ will
save Matt, not any of us.
Thank you,
Brian Connell
John D. Smith
>Matt,
> Before I start I would like to say that I am not trying to argue with
>you, or flam you. I am writing this because even though I don't know you, I
>care about you and everyone else out there who feel the same way that you do.
>Please consider what I say, and lets carry on a peaceful conversation. Well
>here it goes...
> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>I understand you saying this, because many people feel this way. I happen
>to believe that all three of these things exist. If they do, then where
>will you fit into the picture. You say that you would rather go to hell.
>Let me tell you that this is a big mistake. Hell is deffinately not going
>to be a place to part. It will be a place of eternal torment in the Lake of
>Fire. Those who are in hell will surely regret not following Christ. Jesus
>is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
>with God. Also He is the only person to raise Himself from the dead and to
>still be living today. Many people witness this event, and they wrote it
>down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
>go on for the rest of your life without being told this. I know that what I
>say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
>understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
>"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal
>power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
>has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>In Christ,
>Justin Bailey (s107...@cedarville.edu)
(like) is the Lake of Fire (like) one of the Great Lakes? Is it
salty? Just wondering.
Thanks Justin, it's good to see that someone cares
about their fellow man... my advice to you is to question
everything, including yourself.
DSmith
mac...@cabell.vcu.edu
Phil Calvert
this kind of post go unanswered (which I'm sure it won't be).
Necromancer writes:
>Yes. Besides being a bit biased,
Who or what history source isn't biased? Only one written by someone who
knows everything...
>the Bible also is incorrect on the age of the Earth
If all of the different scientific dating methods are looked at as
being equal (which they usually aren't, by creationists or evolutionists),
there is no"correct" age of the earth (i.e. they all point to different
dates, from 4000 to 25 billion).
>and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there is enough water
>on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the Earth with water.
Think again. Remember that the topology of the earth wasn't necessarily the
same back then.
>Plus, two animals of every species would be impossible to fit on any size
>of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
I don't think you mean that an ark "as large as the Earth" could only hold
two of every species now in existence. There are obviously more than two of
every species presently on the earth. Also, keep in mind that weren't as
many species in Noah's time as there are now.
>and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool
That's an interesting statement considering that evolution assumes that
one creature is a big enough gene pool.
><not to mention the fact that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some
pretty heavy incest to repopulate the earth>.
Actually, the sin of incest didn't come into existence until Moses' time,
which was considerably later than Noah. Cousins marrying cousins (or
brothers marrying sisters, in Adam's time) was legit before God gave the
law. It sounds strange to us now, but hey...
The objective of this post is not to start a debate on origins, but to show
that you can find evidence to prove whatever you want, as shown in the
original post, as well as in my post. It depends on your presuppositions.
If you presuppose an infinite God (as is obvious to me), no creation,
miracle, or ressurection is too far-fetched to believe.
> - Necromancer
Tony Brown
Steve Taylor, Phil Keaggy, Bryn Haworth, Urban Species, Bryan
Powell, World Wide Message Tribe.
Saturday Night will be linked with Amnesty International (rather like
the Monday's 'Putting your house in order' last year). This year
Monday evening is the 21st Birthday party.
Speakers:-
Eric Delve, Adrian Plass, Walter Wangerin, Jim Wallis, Simon Mayo,
Joy Carrol, Philip Yancey, Graham Cray, Joan King, John Bell, Bruce
Harris, Leslie Griffith.
Tony Brown wearing my Greenbelt hat.
Necromancer
two...@chm.tec.sc.us
Just a note: Better check Josephus again. I can't give you the exact
location, but he does reference "Jesus, who some called the Christ, who
performed many signs and wonders, and who was indeed the Christ."(paraphrase).
I saw it several years ago while studying theology. It can be eaisily over-
looked because it is only a one-line entry.
Tom
Simon Ritter
: Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
Justin,
Thanks for posting this wonderful article into rec.music.misc, *NOT*!!
I suggest you read read 'Zen and the Art of the Internet' and get some
ideas of netiquette and cross posting. Frankly I don't have *ANY* interest
in reading a theological discussion when searching for info on a particular
band/type of music. You had Kurt Cobain's name in your subject, but made
not one reference to him in your article - I was actually interested in
seeing what people had to say about this tragic event. Your posting was
of the most annoying kind - both misleading and irrelevant to the newsgroup.
Consider this a major flame.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Ritter ¦ Sell your house, sell your car,
Senior Consultant (The UNIX bits) ¦ sell everything you own, but don't
Novell Consulting Services Europe ¦ sell out.
sri...@novell.co.uk ¦ Life is Vertical!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:
The views expressed above are my own and in no way reflect those of my
employer, whether they be past, present or future.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
green...@cobra.uni.edu
anti-Christ rhetoric without a confrontation. And I am not gonna let him get
away with flaming a Christian sister.
>
>>ANYTHING! That's not surprising. You're pathetic. I wish Cobain had found a
>>way to take your ilk with him. Actually, partying with Cobain probably would
>>have done all you small-minded, tight-sphinctered pinheads a world of good.
Doesn't look like Corbain had much to party about sir. And even if he did, it
sure proves that maybe us pinheaded, smallminded fundies have something going
for us after all, that we have a hope that is in Christ. We don't have to take
a shot gun to our heads because our hope is in Christ no matter what the
circumstances are in life. So tell us, what is more small minded: Partying and
blowing your brains out or choosing Christ and life. If Corbain was indeed
openminded, he wouldn't have done what he did.
>>Kurt's dead and you live on--if that doesn't disprove the existence of god,
>>nothing ever will. If there is a hell, I know the PTL club runs on the only
>>channel 24 hours a day. I really can't imagine any torment worse than
>>spending eternity (f**k, five minutes even) around someone like you. I
Sir, with your profanity and your negative attitude and your hatred toward
Christians, I am not too sure that too many people would be too fond of you
either. Besides there are many good Christian folk on this newslist that were
minding their own business.
>>wouldn't be surprised if the straw that broke Cobain's will to live was a
>>visit from a Jehovah's witness. Kurt probably closed the door and said,
>>"That does it, I'm checking off this fuckin' planet."
We are not from the Jehovah's witness. That shows how much you know about
Christianity sir. You don't even know what you are talking about.
Christianity and the Jehovah's witness are 2 totally different religions.
>
>>If there's any chance at all that heaven and hell exist, I hope I end up in
>>the latter--I know that's where all the cool people will be.
There will be nothing cool about it, because if the Bible is true in that there
is a hell, what is to say that it is not also true in its description of hell.
Like I said there is nothing cool about hell, it is constant torture, the
lowsiest place you will ever visit. Thing is you won't be visiting there. You
will be spending an eternity there if you don't turn to Christ. Christ is your
only way out. Better take him while you can. If you want to have a fraction
of a taste of hell, put your hand in a bonfire and keep it there for 30
seconds.
Arriving in
>>heaven and finding it populated with your kind would be like arriving at a
>>party that just ran out of beer; anybody with any sense at all would bail.
You know I would respect you more if you bashed Christians and Christ in a
rational/intellectual way, but this kind of flaming, regardless of who it is
toward, is not worthy of too much of a response other than to say that this
little diatribe of yours is not appreciated here and should take a hike on out
of here. Besides we are talking about Christian music here, not Christian
doctrine; there are other newslists for that.
>
> I'm sorry to have offended you. I honestly don't know what I said that made
> you so mad in the first place.
You didn't say anything. This guy seems to have a personal vendetta and a lot
of anger toward the Christian community. Who knows why, but I think he has
things that he needs to get resolved himself with his own life. We aren't his
problem; we're his scapegoat.
I'm not quite sure why you're responding in
> such a hostile manner, but you are entitled to your opinions...wish you'd
This is very typical behavior of a Satanist or wimpy atheist. Most atheists I
know debate the issue and discuss it rationally; they don't screem profanities.
That is a typical response of someone who can't deal with issues.
> grant me the same right. I am NOT trying to force anything down your
> throat. As for your uncertainty as to whether or not there is a God,
> heaven, and hell, you'll find that out one day. I won't even tell you my
> beliefs on that, because you'll just rip me apart for that too.
You're right, he will.
Aaron
Justin Bailey
>you will never have a loving relationship with God. For as you rejected
>Him, He then rejected you.
Great Point!
>I don't hold to, nor "belong" to any religion, for religion was made by
>man. I hold to Christ. I am a Christian.
Another good statement.
>Dan Pugsley
>s103...@cedarville.edu
Justin Bailey
L. Platje
>From: S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>Date: Sun, 10 Apr 1994 21:49:00 GMT
>In article <matt.766011864@groucho> ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks) writes:
>>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>>Date: 10 Apr 94 21:04:24 GMT
>
>>sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (J.P. Paulus) writes:
>
>>>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>>>other religions.
>>>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>>>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>>>without Jesus.
>
>>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>>as you was sterile. I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
>>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>>that can change your life?
>
>Look. If you don't like Christian music, then fine. But I think that you
>need to do a little more homework on all the different kinds of Christian
>music there are out there before you call it "so incredibly stilted and
>lifeless."
>
>
>>Disclaimer: My views are not, so far as I know, indicative of the views of
>>NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF. I will, however, do what I can to change that.
>
>Heaven forbid.
>
>>--
>>___________________________________________________________________________
>>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
>
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
>| | -Thoreau |
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>| "Don't judge a man by his opinions, but by what |
>| his opinions have made him." -G.C. Lichtenberg |
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
christian crap... try the Sex Pistols or the Ramones. That'll give you a
blast. Hope you will see the light soon.
L. Platje
>From: S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life)
>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>In article <matt.766011864@groucho> ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks) writes:
>>From: ma...@unidata.ucar.edu (Matt Hicks)
>>Subject: Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead)
>>Date: 10 Apr 94 21:04:24 GMT
>
>>sha...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (J.P. Paulus) writes:
>
>>>****In the temporary world, yeah, there can be some hope to living with
>>>other religions.
>>>But when all is said & done, ultimately, there can be no hope without Jesus.
>>>There can be hope without "The Church" and without "Christianity". But not
>>>without Jesus.
>
>>Jesus can blow me. So can the Easter Bunny, Betty Rubble, and Snow White. I
>>wish that there was some way to get people like you out of the f**king gene
>>pool right now. If there was a god, he'd make sure anyone as simple minded
>>as you was sterile. I see that this is posted to rec.music.christian; anyone
>>else ever think that if there was a god, christian "music" would sound more
>>inspired than a detergent jingle? Why is that christian music is so
>>incredibly stilted and lifeless, while punk and industrial and music written
>>by people like the guys from XTC (see "Dear God"; one of the greatest songs
>>_I've_ ever heard) is full of conviction, passion, and the kind of energy
>>that can change your life?
>
>>NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF. I will, however, do what I can to change that.
>
>
>>___________________________________________________________________________
>>Matthew B. Hicks |"Bathe her and bring her to my tent--that's what
>>ma...@unidata.ucar.edu | power's all about."
>>303/497-8676 | Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect
>
>
>in the "brilliant" gene pool. Obviously, the music industry caters to your
>tastes and standards because Christian music is not popular at all. If you
>really LISTENED to Christian music, without a bias, you might actually LIKE
>it. You might not like all of it, but you'd probably like a few songs. I
>don't like all of it, because peoples' musical tastes are different (no
>foolin'!).
>
>As for the existence of God (big G not little g), He doesn't exist or not
>exist because people do or don't believe in Him. He exists because He is
>the creator of the universe!
>
>
>
>--
>ME!!!
>
>(That's - Will Orser)
>--
>
And my daddy is a canary. Get real.
Adam D Calow
Sorry to continue this thread in this newsgroup:
In article <S1012944.7...@cedarville.edu> S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life) writes:
[Loads of aurguments for and against deleted - you've probably read them all
several times by now]
Personally, I am agnostic, in my mind definitely not believing in a god/gods is
just as much a faith as believing - there is no proof either way.
>Jesus Christ _IS_ the truth!!
Don't you just hate that kind of statement? Prove it!
>God came to earth as a man (Jesus Christ). Jesus died on a cross (a horrible
>death) for the sins of the world.
I do not go as far to say that Jesus never existed, because he probably did, but
what proof is there, other than the tales and legends that grew up around him,
that he is God, or the son of God (references to the bible are not accepted as
proof)?
>_Anyone_ who asks for forgiveness and submits to Christ can
>be changed by Him and go to heaven.
I have always found that to be a rather ironic thing about Christianity. A
person can commit the worse crimes known to mankind, but if they seek
forgiveness from God then they will get to heaven. On the other hand
someone like me, who is a kind, considerate, caring, person will go to hell just
because he refuses to believe in a god!
>As for you not wanting to go to heaven, anyone who thinks that hell is gonna be
>one big party is mistaken. Hell is eternal suffering and separation from God.
A bit like it is here then! Be honest, do you really want to live for eternity? That's an awfully long time you know, what are you going to do to pass
the time?
>Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I try my best, but if I don't depend
>on God, I fail.
No offense, but that sounds like a cop out to me. If I fail, it is my fault, if I succeed then it is my success.
One final question to the Christians reading this - how do you know that your
god is the God. There have been numerous religions through history (and there
are still alot about now), how do you know that you are right?
Bye!
Adam Calow
Necromancer
>In article <2ocd3t$9...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>>Are you speaking from experience? What if I told you that God was the
>>devil and that he only said things about Satan to make him look bad and
>>hell was actually a place where everyone ate Cocoa Puffs all day and
>>laughed at the schmucks who were fooled by the evil god? Not saying
>>that I actually believe the above, but you really shouldn't say what
>>Hell is and/or isn't, because the truth is, no one knows. Besides, what
>>if he likes eternal torment?
>Of course he isn't speaking from experience. He's speaking from the basis
>of the Word of God, which is the standard for his (and my) beliefs. As for
>whether or not he likes eternal torment, I guess we'll just have to wait and
>see about that.
I have yet to see "God" say anything. The Bible was written by early
Christians and not by "God" itself. And if you believe that the Bible
is totally correct, then you have a lot to learn. The world is most
definitely not six millenia old and there is scientific proof to back
this up.
>>>is the only person in history who claimed to be the Son of God, thus equal
>>>with God. Also He is the only person to raise Himself from the dead and to
>>Uh, David Koresh claimed to be the Son of God, and at least there is
>>proof that he existed, and so far, no one has been able to prove that
>>Jesus ever existed at all <to my knowledge>.
>Actually, if you did some studying of history, you would find that there is
>as much evidence to prove that Jesus Christ actually was a human being on
>earth as there is to show that Abraham Lincoln lived. The question is, was
>He who He said He was, that is, the Son of God? There are three
>possible answers to this question.
> 1) He was a lunatic, or a madman. If this was the case, why did so many
>people follow him to the DEATH? And why are people still following him 2000
>years later?
A lot of people would argue that Adolf Hitler was pretty insane <me
included>. How come people still follow his ideals? There have been
many extremely charismatic madmen before. Now, I don't believe Jesus
<if he existed> was indeed a madman, but I only seek to make a point.
You are asking the same question I am. Why do people still follow his
ideals 2000 years later? Christianity's base concepts <of sin> are the
base of most religions and nearly everyone's moral code. This doesn't
mean that just because you believe in those ideals, you must be
Christian.
> 2) He was a liar. If He did lie about this assertion, why would he have
>let Himself be crucified? He could have easily denied the accusations,
>because at all of His trials He was asked if He was truly the Son of God.
I don't think this was the case, either. However, if he was causing
unrest in the provinces, I doubt the Romans would have let him live
anyway.
> 3) He is Lord. Personally, I accept this one. It's up to you to decide
>for yourself where you stand.
I think that Jesus was <to put it in simple terms> a hippie. Look at
his philosophies. They have much in common with the hippie movement of
the 1960s <though I have to admit I was not here for that decade>.
>>>still be living today. Many people witness this event, and they wrote it
>>>down so that the rest of us could learn about it. I don't want to let you
>>Like I said before, do you have proof Jesus ever existed, and do you
>>have proof that if he existed he rose from the dead? Many people wrote
>>down that the there were gods on Mt. Olympus and that they interacted
>>quite a bit more often with mortals. Does that mean they existed?
>>Many people wrote down that there are four true elements. Does this
>>mean there is? Your logic breaks down quickly, my friend.
>See above.
What does that have to do with people writing down a belief and thus it
becomes reality?
>>>go on for the rest of your life without being told this. I know that what I
>>>say won't do anything, it is only by the Holy Spirit that you can truely
>>>understand the trues of God. I light of this I will be praying for you.
>>I have yet to see any evidence of any god's (or gods') existence(s), and
>>your little spiel above added nothing to my understanding of the guillibility
>>of those who follow religions.
>In that case, I'm really sorry for you. I wish you could read _Evidence
>That Demands a Verdict_ by Josh McDowell. Maybe that would help clarify
>some things. The author felt the same as you.
I'll take a look at the book. However, I take it you mean such things
as miraculous recoveries from cancer, etc, etc. These could also be
explained by, say, psychological benefits of prayer <which often gives
hope to the hopeless>. However, look at what kind of suffering religion
<specifically Christianity> has caused throughout the years. The
Crusades, various religious wars of the Protestant Reformation, the long
conflict that used to exist between the French and English, the
Irish-British conflict in Ireland today. I could go on, but you get my
point. Yes, religion is good for a security blanket, but it also causes
problems the easily equal its benefits. These conflicts hardly seem to
be the wishes of a merciful god. To end most of these conflicts, a god
need only show himself and prove his divinity, because the parties who
guessed at its identity incorrectly would probably admit defeat as soon
as they saw that, truly, a god was on the other nation's side.
>>>"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal
>>>power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what
>>>has been made, so that men are without excuse." -Romans 1:20 (NIV)
>>How can someone see something invisible <which by definition means it
>>cannot be seen>?
>That verse is referring to the creation of the universe, which gives
>evidence of God, although that is not the only means by which He reveals
>Himself to us.
How exactly does that give evidence of a god <if you are speaking of
evolutionary theories>? If you are speaking of creationistic theories,
please explain to me why you believe in that theory <which, if true,
would certainly prove a god exists>.
>>>Justin Bailey (s107...@cedarville.edu)
>> - Necromancer
>|Beverly Keist | "Be not simply good; be |
- Necromancer
Adam D Calow
>In article <2oeq8v$r...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>>>think suggesting one read the bible is the way to go for objective history.
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Yes. Besides being a bit biased, the Bible also is incorrect on the age
>>of the Earth and Noah's Flood <among other things>. I don't think there
>>is enough water on the Earth and in the atmosphere to totally cover the
>>Earth with water. Plus, two animals of every species would be
>>impossible to fit on any size of ark <except one as large as the Earth>
>>and two creatures is not a big enough gene pool <not to mention the fact
>>that Noah's family would ahve to engage in some pretty heavy incest to
>>repopulate the earth>.
>Evidence has shown that the earth is only approximately 10,000 years old.
Errm. I bet that there is more evidence to show that it is far older than
that.
>Remember when the first men landed on the moon? The reason the ship had
>those long poles was because they thought the earth was millions of years
>old and therefore there would be feet of dust in the moon.
Are you sure that is what those poles were for? If they expected that much
dust, howcome Neil Armstrong wasn't wearing something like snow shoes when he
first walked onto the moon, to stop him sinking into it? Or even better, he
could have used a pogo stick :-)
>guess what, only three inches.
>Read the Bible and find out how big the arc really was, I'm
>sure you'll realize that it'd be big enough to hold two of every species
>that wouldn't survive in the water or air.
And all the food? How many forests did Noah knock down to build this thing?
Besides, the point about the DNA base not being diverse
enough if only two of each animal were saved still stands.
It also shows that God has a total lack of respect for animals if he killed
most of them to punish us humans (or were they all sinning as well?).
>As for where the water that you
>think couldn't exist, try going down. There's probably as much water in the
>ground as in the ocean.
If he is the all powerful God, no doubt he could just make the water appear
from no-where (it was a miricle after all!).
Bye!
Adam Calow
ee9...@brunel.ac.uk
David Eng
>In article <2oepnn$p...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>S109...@cedarville.edu (Beverly Keist) writes:
>>
>>>In article <2ocd3t$9...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer) writes:
>>>>From: shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu (Necromancer)
>
>>
>>I have yet to see "God" say anything. The Bible was written by early
>>Christians and not by "God" itself. And if you believe that the Bible
>>is totally correct, then you have a lot to learn. The world is most
>>definitely not six millenia old and there is scientific proof to back
>>this up.
>
>This is, I believe, a popular misconception that for some reason has
>been attributed to the church, and of course is not correct. The earth
>is well over 6000 years old, as any self-respecting geologist
>or physicist( ie. me ) will attest, and there is evidence to suggest it is
>much, much older (4.5 billion years?). However, you are mistaken in
>believing that the Bible dates the earth at 6000 years. In fact, the
[deleted]
>Now, how to relate this to music?
>...that gaps a little too large even for me. Apologies to everyone.
>
> Craig Burrell
>
For those who are curious about this and have some time, check out
a couple of books that offer fascinating suggestions.
The Fingerprint of God
- by Dr. Hugh Ross
ISBN 0-939497-18-2
The Creator and the Cosmos: How the Greatest Scientific Discoveries
of the Centure Reveal God
- by Dr. Hugh Ross
ISBN 08910-97007
I just wish I was better versed in physics to fully appreciate
the material. I too, apologize for posting this in a music group.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David L. Eng University of Calgary Calgary, Alberta,
e...@cpsc.ucalgary.ca Computer Science Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joon H Bae
(Nirvana Le.. by James A. Wheatley@spitfi
>
> Personally, I still miss Marvin Gaye the most.
what?? He's dead????
toke :~(
Douglas C Pearson
<bm...@Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>I would have to say that your rebuke is to a good extent
>unwarrented. Yes, there are those who witness at a more
>"intellectual" level perhaps, but to say that God cannot use
>any one of these posts is to believe in a very small God.
the point is _not_ to say that God cannot use any one of the "less
intellectual" posts - i agree, to say that they cannot be used is to
believe in a very small God indeed! but i think some degree of wisdom
is in order when we send a post of that sort to someone who has made
it very clear that his problems with God's existence are on an
intellectual level. i won't say that God won't use just a simple
statement of faith in any circumstance, but you would have to agree
with me that the likelihood is that his heart will be further hardened.
> It
>is often the weak, bumbling Christian who will see someone come
>to Christ, simply so that God can demonstrate that absolutely
>none of this comes from our own power. After years of
>intensive studies to answer just about every question I could
>think of, it was in five minutes of bumbling through a 4 laws
>on the spur of the moment that someone finally came to Christ
>with me. This was someone who had grown up in the church and
>rejected it. Yes, this means he'd heard to 2000 times before.
how true this is! God doesn't need us to save the world. He can do it
himself with no problem whatsoever. He _chooses_ to use us, though, and
for that we should be eternally grateful.
but does that mean that God will choose to use us the same way every
time? does that mean we shouldn't be studying to answer the doubts that
a non-believer might have? or - even more simple! - should we listen to
the Holy Spirit and let Him give us the answer that we need? if any of
us has a need, we should ask God who gives us _all_ that we need - and
much more! (blatantly ripped off from james' letter.)
to say that an intellectual response can't be used of God is putting
God in the same box as when we say that a simple response can't be
used of God. if i gave the impression that i was belittling all simple
responses to somebody's questions, then i apologize. God has no preset
method...at least not a preset method that we can see.
>I think you perhaps should consider getting off of your
>soapbox, though I no you don't intend it to be like that. Let
>God speak the words to people's hearts, and Matt will hear them.
>To tell you the truth, with the exception of a few inflammatory
>posts, I was about to commend people for their concern for Matt
>and their responses to him.
perhaps. but when a post comes up saying "hey guys, let's fill up matt's
mailbox with all these happy-happy-joy-joy-Jesus-loves-you-and-has-a-
wonderful-plan-for-your-life messages so he can come to know the Lord!"
then i want to hurl all over again.
brian, i thank you for seeing my good intentions, and i see yours too.
in the end, though, good intentions are simply not enough, and likely
_human_ good intentions will do more harm than good. putting to death
things of the flesh not only means putting our sin behind us, but putting
behind our own human desire to do right as well. (blatantly ripped off
from _the_spiritual_man_ by watchman nee...highly recommended book.) all
the right that will ever be done will be done by God and God alone. if we
send a message to matt in our own human power hoping for his salvation so
we can get some glory ourself, then we've missed the point.
>Let God speak through you, and don't concern yourself with how
>He works through others. Any way you looks at it, Christ will
>save Matt, not any of us.
in the end, that last statement is the only one that matters in the whole
post.
brian, thanks for some good discussion.
Thomas G. McWilliams
: > world when someone such as Kurt looses all hope and commits
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Well, without Christ, I don't see that there can ever be any real hope.
The sad part is that there is a high probability that Cobain is
in hell now. If he found this world so unpleasant so as to take
his own life, imagine how he feels now that he is facing an
eternity in hell.
Thomas
Akira Lynn Bell
>
> Personally, I still miss Marvin Gaye the most.
>
doing him justice. Does anyone know if any old Marvin has been re-released on
CD. Old meaning before 1970.
Akira
GOAH
>> You say that you don't think that there is a God, a Heaven, or a hell.
>No, I say, "I _know_ that there is no such thing as a God or any of the
>assorted bullshit that goes along with this archaic notion."
>>Thank you for reading this and giving me a chance to share with you.
>Actually I just deleted everything between the first quoted section and this
>one. A quick glance showed me that it was just full of the same nonsense
>that I've heard and seen from brainless sheep like yourself time and time
>again. I'm sure you don't unquestioningly believe anything else you read
>that was written 2000 years ago, why do you believe that remarkable work of
>historical fiction known as the bible? Because a bunch of hypocrits who
>claim to be celebate and wear uniforms like nazis of piousness tell you to?
>Christianity and organized religion in general have done more to mess up
>individuals and the world than any other force in history, including
>Fascists, Nazis, and the Golden Horde of Atilla the Hun. The sooner you wake
>up and learn to think for yourself, the better off you will be. I wish we
>could return to the days when they fed Christians to the lions--that's
>entertainment.
>This will be _my_ last word on this topic--you people aren't worth my time.
>Disclaimer: I do not speak for my employer, only for those lucky people who
>have the good sense to agree with me.
# # # # # ####### ####### # # # # ###### ###
# # # # ## ## # # # # # ## # # # ###
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # ###
####### # # # # # ##### # # # # # # # # # #
# # ####### # # ### # # # # # # # # # #
# # # # # # ### # # # # # # ## # # ###
# # # # # # ### # ####### ##### # # ###### ###
HAVE YOU HEARD? IT'S AT ARBY'S! WOO-HOOO!!!!
DAS GOAH
Wasted Life
>The world is most
>definitely not six millenia old and there is scientific proof to back
>this up.
All of which is proved by circular reasoning, of course.
--
The earth is 10 billion years old because we tested these rock samples and
found them to be ten billion years old.
These rocks are ten billion years old because we found them in the oldest
part of the earth, which is ten billion years old
--
Sounds scientific to me. (yeah right)
> - Necromancer
Steven Harris
Adam D Calow <ee9...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
>>_Anyone_ who asks for forgiveness and submits to Christ can
>>be changed by Him and go to heaven.
>
>I have always found that to be a rather ironic thing about Christianity. A
>person can commit the worse crimes known to mankind, but if they seek
>forgiveness from God then they will get to heaven. On the other hand
>someone like me, who is a kind, considerate, caring, person will go to hell just
>because he refuses to believe in a god!
>ee9...@brunel.ac.uk
I would bet that most Christians who would not want to tell you that you will
go to hell without GOd's forgiveness would say that it is not your good deeds
that will keep you out, or your evil ones, but your pride to think that you
don't need to be forgiven. And as for wanting our souls to live forever, I
don't think we have a choice in the matter. NO matter what we believe about
eternity, God will decide the destiny of our souls. And if you're right and
there is no God, then we will probably cease to exist. But just because
you don't want to live/suffer/praise GOd eternally is not up to you.
forgiven.
Wasted Life
>From: ee9...@brunel.ac.uk (Adam D Calow)
>Subject: Christianity (was Re: Kurt Cobain (Nirvana Lead Man Dead))
>Summary: Nothing to do with music or cd's.
>Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 15:00:23 GMT
>Hi All!
>Sorry to continue this thread in this newsgroup:
>In article <S1012944.7...@cedarville.edu> S101...@cedarville.edu (Wasted Life) writes:
>[Loads of aurguments for and against deleted - you've probably read them all
>several times by now]
>Personally, I am agnostic, in my mind definitely not believing in a god/gods is
>just as much a faith as believing - there is no proof either way.
Well, if you're right and I'm wrong, no problem. But, if
I'm right and you're wrong, BIG problem for you. :(
>>Jesus Christ _IS_ the truth!!
>Don't you just hate that kind of statement? Prove it!
Well, I can't, but I know it to be true because of things in my life.
>>God came to earth as a man (Jesus Christ). Jesus died on a cross (a horrible
>>death) for the sins of the world.
>I do not go as far to say that Jesus never existed, because he probably did, but
>what proof is there, other than the tales and legends that grew up around him,
>that he is God, or the son of God (references to the bible are not accepted as
>proof)?
To quote George Michael:
Oh ya gotta have faith, faith, faith.
>>_Anyone_ who asks for forgiveness and submits to Christ can
>>be changed by Him and go to heaven.
>I have always found that to be a rather ironic thing about Christianity. A
>person can commit the worse crimes known to mankind, but if they seek
>forgiveness from God then they will get to heaven. On the other hand
>someone like me, who is a kind, considerate, caring, person will go to hell just
>because he refuses to believe in a god!
"Good" people can't get into heaven just by being "good". You have to
be changed by God. Someone isn't your son or daughter just because they
live in your house and eat your food (my parents have taken many people in
to live with us for a while). Someone is your son or daughter because they
were born into your family or were adopted. See the analogy?
>>As for you not wanting to go to heaven, anyone who thinks that hell is gonna be
>>one big party is mistaken. Hell is eternal suffering and separation from God.
>A bit like it is here then! Be honest, do you really want to live for eternity? That's an awfully long time you know, what are you going to do to pass
>the time?
Well, praising God. Might sound bad to you, but to those of us who have
been changed by Him, it sounds great!
>>Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I try my best, but if I don't depend
>>on God, I fail.
> No offense, but that sounds like a cop out to me. If I fail, it is my fault, if I succeed then it is my success.
I'm not saying it's not my fault when I fail. Our society seems to believe
this though. What I'm saying is that when I try to do things on my own, I
mess up. when I trust in God, He makes me do it the right way.
>One final question to the Christians reading this - how do you know that your
>god is the God. There have been numerous religions through history (and there
>are still alot about now), how do you know that you are right?
Again, "you gotta have faith, faith, faith."
I wish I could convince you, but I know I can't. All I can do is pray for
you and hope that God will make the change in your life.
>Bye!
>Adam Calow
Steven Harris
Why would any intelligent human being fabricate the story of the resurrection
and then spend their whole lives spreading this lie and even dying for this
lie when they knew that they just made it up? Long sentences, but these guys
didn't make any money off of this deal, they lost their lives. You don't see
Steven King going around preaching to everybody that the events in his novels
really happened because it would be a waste of his time because its not true.
If you want to convince me the resurrection was fabricated, give me a rational
reason to explain the dedication of the fabricators. WHY are you so sure it's
a fabrication? Just because you don't want to believe it? give us a reason!
EXIT. Steve.
Necromancer
>>>Necromancer <shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>>I will admit that it would appear that Jesus did exist as a _mortal_,
>>not as the "son of god". I don't think that the Romans let him slip
>>through the cracks <they were very efficient at what they did>, but I
>>don't think he was "resurrected". I believe that this incident was
>>either fabricated, exaggerated, or misinterpreted by those who wrote the
>>Bible. I have read the Bible <all of it, but that was a while ago>.
>> - Necromancer
>`
>Why would any intelligent human being fabricate the story of the resurrection
>and then spend their whole lives spreading this lie and even dying for this
>lie when they knew that they just made it up? Long sentences, but these guys
>didn't make any money off of this deal, they lost their lives. You don't see
>Steven King going around preaching to everybody that the events in his novels
>really happened because it would be a waste of his time because its not true.
>If you want to convince me the resurrection was fabricated, give me a rational
>reason to explain the dedication of the fabricators. WHY are you so sure it's
>a fabrication? Just because you don't want to believe it? give us a reason!
>EXIT. Steve.
Well, I'll put my mandatory snide remark at the beginning and get it over
with:
Why would any intelligent human follow a religion?
Now that that is over with, things have changed in the past 2000 years.
Most of us don't like to watch bloodsport anymore, too. Besides, what
if the followers were super fanatics about the guy? They might have
gone overboard.
--
Steve Hilberg <Necromancer> "Only the insane have enough strength
<shil...@superdec.uni.uiuc.edu> enough to prosper. Only those who
prosper can truly judge what is sane."
- Proverb