Moby is NOT a Christian
Alvin
Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
party, and how he was not able to get some.
I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
the body of Christ.
Bruce A. Brown
alvinst...@hotmail.com wrote on 7/25/02 10:27 AM:
> I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Yes, you can see how much these artists have relied on Christians for album
sales. Otherwise, they'd be languishing in the cut-out racks...
Troy Miller
> I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> party, and how he was not able to get some.
>
> I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
<wavs paw>
Bah!
Troy
the nonconformist
"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
sinners and drank wine.
--
==== Josh Marihugh ==== NP: Revival Sound Worship Band _(a)Live in Nevada_
"Christianity without life [is] as empty as life without Christianity."
-- Eamon Dunphy, writing of U2's Dave "The Edge" Evans, in _Unforgettable
Fire_.
"I feel so alive, for the very first time, I can't deny You..."
--P.O.D. "Alive"
Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
Alvin <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
>sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
>their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
>they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Didn't Moby's biggest album sales (_Play_ and the new one) come well after
the period where he was most strongly identified with Christianity (the
mid-90s)?
Is one "GD" enough for you to not consider someone a Christian? You'd
probably have serious doubts about me during a typically frustrating
day at work. Seems that your standards are higher than God's. :-)
Dunno about the beer and partying (I don't know much about POD, but there's
nothing inherently wrong with beer or partying), but didn't Jesus himself
tour with Ozzy? (Or at least eat dinner with sinners? :-)
JRjr
--
%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%% www.prism.gatech.edu/~vapspwi %%%%%%%%%%%
"Some will shake off the sloth of faithlessness
While others simply languish in their sleep
Me, I just fight to stay awake..." -- VOL, "Black Cloud O'er Me"
Stephen Cook
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:02:13 GMT, "the nonconformist"
<pinkel...@SPAMKILLmusician.net> wrote:
>"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
>> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
>> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
>Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
>sinners and drank wine.
I didn't hear of Jesus using profanity or engaging in the acts of the
people he hung around. You generalization is tiresome and old.
Brothermark
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
and he has tattoes. his body is the temple of the holy spirit and he has
stained it with horrible ink stuff
Alvin
> "Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
> > their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
> Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
> sinners and drank wine.
Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
sex along with the rest.
As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
drunk.
Susan Anderson
: "the nonconformist" <pinkel...@SPAMKILLmusician.net> wrote in message news:<VpU%8.15$YH5.5...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
:> "Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
:> > their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
:> > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
:>
:> Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
:> sinners and drank wine.
[speculation snipped]
: As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
: you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
: drunk.
And how exactly does drinking a glass of wine equal getting drunk???
In case you haven't heard, a person can drink a beer, a glass of
wine, etc without getting drunk. It's called moderation. Alcohol
does not have to equal "evil and wrong."
Susan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Susan
kee...@visi.com
PuzzleShift
> I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> party, and how he was not able to get some.
Whew. Thanks for clearing that up. Now we can write mental notes to
ourselves that we have one more artist to judge accordingly.
> I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> their first album contains the GD word in one song.
Well I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that, since they have said
themselves that they're not a "Christian" band and have expressed
annoyance at the fact that so many Christians have thrown them onto
the bandwagon of mainstream Christian acts. On another note, though,
if they did say they were Christians now, would you still write them
off? That first album was released almost six years ago. People have
been known to change in such periods of time. Six years ago I swore
up a storm too, yet I've been a Christian since I was five. I hope
you won't put my salvation under examination now.
POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Heaven forbid that one of the few "Christian" artists that have gained
respect in the mainstream music culture uses that to further the name
of Christ. Do you think those kids going to Ozzfest hear about Christ
anywhere else? I praise POD for charting new territory and spreading
the Gospel to people who most likely don't hear good things about
Christ on a day to day basis. I respect that a lot more than some
"holier-than-thou" artist who won't touch secular music business
because they can't dirty themselves by being in contact with "the
heathen". And where'd you get that drinking and partying thing?
> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> the body of Christ.
Christians also need to be careful of people who pass judgement on
artists who are actually living out the Great Commission.
-PS
Michael Martin
news:ahp3tr$srb$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
> but didn't Jesus himself
> tour with Ozzy? (Or at least eat dinner with sinners? :-)
Shhhhhhhh!!!
Next thing you know, somebody's going to tell me Jesus wasn't a blond-haired
blue-eyed guy with short hair who always wore a jacket and tie!
--
Michael Martin
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love,
and be loved in return."
lifesabirch
I didn't know there was a word GD. Creed never said they were a
Christian band and POD doesn't associate themselves with CCM so how
have they relied on Christians for sales? Most people buying their
cd's are not conservative/fundamental X-tians so why would they be
lanuishing??
lifesabirch
> Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> party, and how he was not able to get some.
For one thing - you shouldn't base anything on an interview. Another,
always go to the source before stating something like this. Plus, this
is your own opinion of who a X-tian is and who isn't based on your own
interpretation and experience.
Where did Jesus say anything against an orgy? Seems like you're hung
up on sex when sex in ancient times was very different than now - in
what's sin and what isn't. I'd venture to say Moby has more compassion
on all people than most X-tians - therefore maybe he's more like Jesus
than them.
> I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
Let's see:
1. Creed doesn't use the name of Christ in the first place to boost
their albums - so that's a lie. Is there a word - GD? How many times
does one have to use the word GD to be Christian? And did Jesus say
anything about this?
2. POD - Heaven forbid if someone drinks, parties, and hangs out with
"sinners" - woops - Jesus would have to be included in this.
>
> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> the body of Christ.
Yes, people who slander others like this thread.
Ack!
> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> the body of Christ.
Yup -- that's why I'm mighty skeptical of your claim to be one.
Ack!
Glitter Music
is prayer stronger than the words in your email?
perhaps moby and pod should perform only in churches and perhaps when we
leave our church we should turn off our light and show no love. its a
sad world you live in and i don't want any part of it.
glitter
Bruce A. Brown
lifes...@yahoo.com wrote on 7/25/02 3:50 PM:
Sarcasm apparently went over your head...
Alvin
> In article <d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>,
> Alvin <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> >sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> >their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> >they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
> Didn't Moby's biggest album sales (_Play_ and the new one) come well after
> the period where he was most strongly identified with Christianity (the
> mid-90s)?
>
> Is one "GD" enough for you to not consider someone a Christian? You'd
> probably have serious doubts about me during a typically frustrating
> day at work. Seems that your standards are higher than God's. :-)
The problem is that we are not dealing with one "GD". I'm sure almost
every Christian has said some foul words in their time out of
frustration or anger. Yet, Creed made a conscious decision to
blaspheme God openly on an album. Everytime someone plays that song,
God is blasphemed. Any Christian artist that would commit such an
act is seriously messed up.
> Dunno about the beer and partying (I don't know much about POD, but there's
> nothing inherently wrong with beer or partying), but didn't Jesus himself
> tour with Ozzy? (Or at least eat dinner with sinners? :-)
>
> JRjr
Sounds like you might be messed up too.
Breezy
> As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
> you know.
LOL! Yeah, Paul exhorted his epistle readers a few times not to be given to
too much "grape juice." Quick, Brethren! Cornelius is going for another
glass of grape juice! Cut him off!!!
And at the wedding feast, "after the guests had well drunk" the inferior
wine, Jesus brought out the good stuff - Grape Juice! Whoooo! Time to
par-tey!
Wine is wine. Jesus drank an alcoholic beverage and changed water into some
for other people to drink. Don't try to change the facts just to
rationalize things to fit into your modern evangelical churchianized view.
:)
--
Getting ready for his nightly glass o' red wine,
Breezy
"It is a subtle effort to pose as deity ourselves by somehow sharing in the
shame of sins committed."
- Steve McVey www.gracewalk.org
snail
>>news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
>>> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
>>> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>>Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
>>sinners and drank wine.
>I didn't hear of Jesus using profanity or engaging in the acts of the
>people he hung around. You generalization is tiresome and old.
The original troll is tiresome and old.
--
snail @ careless net | Character is what you are in the dark! - Whorfin
snail
>"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>Well, i guess Jesus Himself is out because he hung out ('toured') with
Jesus is gay ?
snail
Whereas I've avoided all marks, including the mark of the sun.
snail
>alvinst...@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote:
>> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
>> the body of Christ.
>Yup -- that's why I'm mighty skeptical of your claim to be one.
The OP didn't actually claim to be one :)
PuzzleShift
> join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
> Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
> sex along with the rest.
Would you care to back that up? I guess you haven't bothered to
actaully check out what POD does in the mainstream before ranting
against them, have you? Check out the Howard Stern interview or
similar such things. You'll find an exceptional witness.
> As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
> you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
> drunk.
No there's not. But he did drink wine. Drinking wine does not make
one drunk. Drinking to EXCESS does. Paul even recommends that
Timothy drink wine to quell a disturbed stomach.
PuzzleShift
That sounds more like your own opinion ("horrible ink stuff") biasing
your opinion on Sonny and his band. That doesn't fly.
-PS
scholar and fool
> Sounds like you might be messed up too.
al, i can tell that you're trying really hard. but unfortunately
there are those that have been doing it better, and for longer.
get some more experience under your belt then come back and try
some more. here's a good learning tool:
G-d bless you in your endeavours!
--
scholar and fool /// posing as junk...@leifeste.net
replace junkmail with terry to e-mail me. was i joking?
Jay
>join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
>Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
>sex along with the rest.
>
>As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
>you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
>drunk.
This is one of the stupidest posts I've read in a while.
Jay
My Jesus decal does quite a trick
Right above my dashboard I stick it
A good luck charm
It keeps me from harm
And saves me from speeding tickets
Jay
>Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
>thinking.
[snip the rest of the blather]
So, we're gonna see this again in another 3-4 months? Isn't this essentially
verbatim what he said before?
lifesabirch
"Bruce A. Brown" <fathe...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<B965E96B.E4B0%fathe...@comcast.net>...
Alvin
The problem is not so much with the artists, but with the Christian
community's eagerness to embrace any celebrity that vaguely hints at
being Christian. Christians should not support such artists as Creed.
I would not feel right about giving my money to a band that profanes
God in one of their songs.
Alvin
> > Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
> > join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
> > Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
> > sex along with the rest.
> Would you care to back that up? I guess you haven't bothered to
> actaully check out what POD does in the mainstream before ranting
> against them, have you? Check out the Howard Stern interview or
> similar such things. You'll find an exceptional witness.
I would have a problem with a band that claims to be a witness for
Christ, yet enjoys partying and beer drinking. One of their big hits
was even called "Rock the party". POD is only mainstream acceptable
because they use religion as an undertone. If they start praising and
singing about Christ, MTV would ignore them.
Alvin
> >Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
> >join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
> >Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
> >sex along with the rest.
> >
> >As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
> >you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
> >drunk.
>
> This is one of the stupidest posts I've read in a while.
>
> Jay
And your point is?
Pete Juvinall
I would like to hear his response. "Doubtful" that he's ever seen POD live
at all. (lol...always wanted to
Also, if wine in the bible was not fermented, then why would the rule be
there against being drunk with it versus drunk w/ the holy spirit?
--pete
p.s. If you reply - *don't ignore the first question*
"PuzzleShift" <five...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:92481609.02072...@posting.google.com...
Alvin
> alvinst...@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>...
> > I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> > Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> > thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> > that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> > of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> > Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> > the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> > party, and how he was not able to get some.
>
> Whew. Thanks for clearing that up. Now we can write mental notes to
> ourselves that we have one more artist to judge accordingly.
>
> > I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > their first album contains the GD word in one song.
>
> Well I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that, since they have said
> themselves that they're not a "Christian" band and have expressed
> annoyance at the fact that so many Christians have thrown them onto
> the bandwagon of mainstream Christian acts. On another note, though,
> if they did say they were Christians now, would you still write them
> off? That first album was released almost six years ago. People have
> been known to change in such periods of time. Six years ago I swore
> up a storm too, yet I've been a Christian since I was five. I hope
> you won't put my salvation under examination now.
Yes, I would write them off. If they had changed, they would work to
get the song edited or removed from the "My Own Prison" LP.
> POD is suspect as
> > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
> Heaven forbid that one of the few "Christian" artists that have gained
> respect in the mainstream music culture uses that to further the name
> of Christ. Do you think those kids going to Ozzfest hear about Christ
> anywhere else? I praise POD for charting new territory and spreading
> the Gospel to people who most likely don't hear good things about
> Christ on a day to day basis. I respect that a lot more than some
> "holier-than-thou" artist who won't touch secular music business
> because they can't dirty themselves by being in contact with "the
> heathen". And where'd you get that drinking and partying thing?
DOes POD mention Christ in their concerts? They sure dont in their
songs.
> > Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> > the body of Christ.
>
> Christians also need to be careful of people who pass judgement on
> artists who are actually living out the Great Commission.
>
> -PS
I may have unfairly judged POD, but not Moby. After reading that
interview, I am convinced that this guy is sick.
Alvin
> > I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> > Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> > thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> > that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> > of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> > Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> > the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> > party, and how he was not able to get some.
>
> For one thing - you shouldn't base anything on an interview. Another,
> always go to the source before stating something like this. Plus, this
> is your own opinion of who a X-tian is and who isn't based on your own
> interpretation and experience.
It is highly unlikely that a mainstream magazine like Blender would
fictionalize an interview with a popular artist. If they did that,
Moby would be all over them with lawsuits. I base my opinion on the
Bible.
> Where did Jesus say anything against an orgy? Seems like you're hung
> up on sex when sex in ancient times was very different than now - in
> what's sin and what isn't. I'd venture to say Moby has more compassion
> on all people than most X-tians - therefore maybe he's more like Jesus
> than them.
Lol, you're kidding right? Jesus makes it plain that sex is to be
with one partner for life. I guess you missed the part about adultry
huh? Jesus even said that lusting with eyes is sin.
> > I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
> Let's see:
> 1. Creed doesn't use the name of Christ in the first place to boost
> their albums - so that's a lie. Is there a word - GD? How many times
> does one have to use the word GD to be Christian? And did Jesus say
> anything about this?
> 2. POD - Heaven forbid if someone drinks, parties, and hangs out with
> "sinners" - woops - Jesus would have to be included in this.
>
> >
> > Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> > the body of Christ.
>
> Yes, people who slander others like this thread.
Does "shut up" count as slander?
Wednesday White
>And how exactly does drinking a glass of wine equal getting drunk???
Depends on the glass. Friend of mine has UK-pint-sized wine glasses. ^_^
But, yeah, a normal unit of wine shouldn't mess with most people.
Wednesday White
>I would have a problem with a band that claims to be a witness for
>Christ, yet enjoys partying and beer drinking.
And that's why lots of them don't talk about it.
the nonconformist
"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
> Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
> join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
> Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
> sex along with the rest.
Guh...you have NO way to know their personal lives while on tour or
otherwise.
And as far as Ozzy goes (since POD's on Ozzfest), the only one he's having
sex with is his wife. Last I checked there was nothing wrong with that.
>
> As far as Jesus drinking wine, it could have been grape juice for all
> you know. There is nothing in the scriptures about Jesus getting
> drunk.
Alvin, you need to get a life.
there's nothing been said about POD being drunk either. Would i drink a beer
with them? no. Only because i think beer tastes like piss smells.
But one (or even several) beers will not necessarily get you drunk.
--
==== Josh Marihugh ==== NP:
"Christianity without life [is] as empty as life without Christianity."
-- Eamon Dunphy, writing of U2's Dave "The Edge" Evans, in _Unforgettable
Fire_.
"I feel so alive, for the very first time, I can't deny You..."
--P.O.D. "Alive"
the nonconformist
"snail" <sn...@careless.netOOPS.au> wrote in message
news:slrnak14e...@zipperii.zip.com.au...
> >Well, i guess Jesus Himself is [to be cast] out because he hung out
('toured') with
>
> Jesus is gay ?
wise-guy...
see fix above.
Bruce A. Brown
alvinst...@hotmail.com wrote on 7/26/02 10:53 AM:
> DOes POD mention Christ in their concerts? They sure dont in their
> songs.
Well, the answer to that question can be easily found with very little web
research. But the answer is, they DO in fact mention Christ in their songs,
and have throughout their 10-year history (perhaps you were unaware of their
lengthy career in the Christian marketplace that preceded their mainstream
success; success which, to be blunt, did NOT come at the expense of denying
their faith)
As far as their stage presentation goes, I have not seen the "Satellite"
tour but up 'til and including the "Southtown" tour, a large portrait of
Jesus was always part of their stage set; usually the "Sacred Heart" picture
with which many Catholics may be familiar. Their stage banter has always
contained many mentions of their faith as well as their lyrics.
It's unfortunate that you connote "party" to have only a negative meaning
and assume that having a beer equates to denying one's salvation.
--bab
Mattias Hembruch
>news:<VpU%8.15$YH5.5...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
>> > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>>
>> sinners and drank wine.
>
>
>Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
>join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
>Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
>sex along with the rest.
So, what's wrong with having a few and then having sex with your
wife/husband?
Mattias
Joy
> perhaps moby and pod should perform only in churches and perhaps when we
> leave our church we should turn off our light and show no love. its a
> sad world you live in and i don't want any part of it.
I don't think that was the point. But if we are to follow your
reasoning, we could say that Richard Hall's lifestyle hasn't exactly
been a glorious beacon of light and love either. Both Moby and P.O.D.
were in my city recently (within the last few months) and both
received major media coverage - I must say P.O.D. did a great job
"shining" while all Richard Hall did was talk about his drinking and
sexual habits. Whatever. P.O.D. *look* "naughty" but behave "nice". RH
looks "nice" but his comments regarding his personal life indicate
that his behavior may be otherwise.
As I said - whatever.
peace,
JOY
<((><
Ack!
> Ack! <all...@engr.colostate.edu> wrote:
> >alvinst...@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote:
> >> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> >> the body of Christ.
> >Yup -- that's why I'm mighty skeptical of your claim to be one.
>
> The OP didn't actually claim to be one :)
Oh, details details... Why spoil a good flame with a few picky details? :)
Ack!
Pete Juvinall
> Christ, yet enjoys partying and beer drinking.
O.k., let's look at this.
We won't even get into the drunk/not drunk drink/no drink debate - I think
if you review some of the posts in this group, you'll find that in this
group of people, its a grey area at best. Beyond that, I've not read what
POD's stance on it is.
As far as partying - what do you mean? I like to go to parties? Being with
people/listening to music/dancing is fun.
>One of their big hits was even called "Rock the party".
"We came here to rock this jam/spread His love is the master plan...hey DJ
won't ya play that song/and we'll keep dancing till the break of dawn/keep
it live like the way it should/ain't nobody getting crazy so you know it's
all good...don't want to be caught mess'n around/cuz a party ain't a party
when it gets shut down"
the implication on the last line is don't do anything illegal. I hardly see
this encouraging anything but having fun...
>POD is only mainstream acceptable
> because they use religion as an undertone. If they start praising and
> singing about Christ, MTV would ignore them.
Southtown
"Father fill my cup/give me strength to power up/A life to shine, you're the
diamond in this rough"
Follow me
"Reign, Most High/Almighty Reign, Most High/Almight I, Most High"
Full Color
"I've never been in this state of mind, life don't make sense. With you I
could move mountains, right now I'm helpless I guess. You always knew what
was best, believed in your God, till the very last breath. You showed me,
how strong you can be. If Jesus saved your life, could he do it for me?
I'll lay down my life for you and for him, believe God's promise, I'm going
to see you again."
"Lord here I am, but I am no one. Believe in your name believe in Your son.
If You meet me here, I will wait on You..."
And that's just a few examples of what is the norm lyrically.
You really ought to pick up a CD...if you like that kind of music, you may
like them...
--pete
Jay
>>
>And your point is?
>
I believe I made it.
Jay
PuzzleShift
> "Jerry B. Ray, Jr." <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote in message
> news:ahp3tr$srb$1...@news-int.gatech.edu...
>
>
> > but didn't Jesus himself
> > tour with Ozzy? (Or at least eat dinner with sinners? :-)
>
> Shhhhhhhh!!!
>
> Next thing you know, somebody's going to tell me Jesus wasn't a blond-haired
> blue-eyed guy with short hair who always wore a jacket and tie!
What are you saying!?!? Christ WASN'T Caucasian!?!?
-PS
PuzzleShift
> five...@hotmail.com (PuzzleShift) wrote in message news:<92481609.0207...@posting.google.com>...
> > alvinst...@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>...
> > > I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > > sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > > their first album contains the GD word in one song.
> >
> > Well I'm sure they'd be happy to hear that, since they have said
> > themselves that they're not a "Christian" band and have expressed
> > annoyance at the fact that so many Christians have thrown them onto
> > the bandwagon of mainstream Christian acts. On another note, though,
> > if they did say they were Christians now, would you still write them
> > off? That first album was released almost six years ago. People have
> > been known to change in such periods of time. Six years ago I swore
> > up a storm too, yet I've been a Christian since I was five. I hope
> > you won't put my salvation under examination now.
>
> Yes, I would write them off. If they had changed, they would work to
> get the song edited or removed from the "My Own Prison" LP.
Wow! That's quite an undertaking...
> > POD is suspect as
> > > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
> >
> > Heaven forbid that one of the few "Christian" artists that have gained
> > respect in the mainstream music culture uses that to further the name
> > of Christ. Do you think those kids going to Ozzfest hear about Christ
> > anywhere else? I praise POD for charting new territory and spreading
> > the Gospel to people who most likely don't hear good things about
> > Christ on a day to day basis. I respect that a lot more than some
> > "holier-than-thou" artist who won't touch secular music business
> > because they can't dirty themselves by being in contact with "the
> > heathen". And where'd you get that drinking and partying thing?
>
>
> DOes POD mention Christ in their concerts? They sure dont in their
> songs.
Wow. You plainly have NEVER read POD's lyrics, nor have you seen them
live. Don't put these arguments up against the band when you have no
experience whatsoever with them.
-PS
PuzzleShift
> five...@hotmail.com (PuzzleShift) wrote in message news:<92481609.02072...@posting.google.com>...
> > > Jesus 'toured' with sinners to show them the way of salvation, not to
> > > join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
> > > Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
> > > sex along with the rest.
>
> > Would you care to back that up? I guess you haven't bothered to
> > actaully check out what POD does in the mainstream before ranting
> > against them, have you? Check out the Howard Stern interview or
> > similar such things. You'll find an exceptional witness.
>
> I would have a problem with a band that claims to be a witness for
> Christ, yet enjoys partying and beer drinking. One of their big hits
> was even called "Rock the party". POD is only mainstream acceptable
> because they use religion as an undertone. If they start praising and
> singing about Christ, MTV would ignore them.
OK, once again, you're not backing up your statements. I assume that
you mean "partying and drinking" in a sinful nature, i.e. getting
drunk and immortal types of partying (drugs, orgies, strippers, etc.).
Show me some evidence that says POD participates in this. Because
I've never seen any. As several of us have states, drinking a beer
doesn't make you a drunkard. A party isn't necessarily evil. Ever
been to a birthday party? A SuperBowl party? A neighborhood block
party? Nothing wrong with those. Having a good time with friends
isn't a bad thing. As far as "Rock the Party", what's wrong with
that? Christians can party if they want to. It's the activities at
the party that matter. My old youthgroup used to have pool parties,
DJ parties, regular ol' hang-out parties. Hey, we even went to POD
show together!
-PS
PuzzleShift
> >I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> >Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> >thinking.
>
> [snip the rest of the blather]
>
> So, we're gonna see this again in another 3-4 months? Isn't this essentially
> verbatim what he said before?
Yeah, it sure gets old, but I hate to see true Warriors of Christ get
hacked down by biased, unresearched troll chuckers. I'll defend
someone like Sonny if I think they're innocent.
Wouldn't you love to have someone like Mark Salomon respond to these
folks...
-PS
Mattias Hembruch
Yeah, I've heard that rumour too.
And there was this other guy who claimed Jesus didn't speak the King's English..
Mattias
snail
>Susan Anderson <kee...@visi.com> wrote:
>>And how exactly does drinking a glass of wine equal getting drunk???
>Depends on the glass. Friend of mine has UK-pint-sized wine glasses. ^_^
Could be using a yard glass.
>But, yeah, a normal unit of wine shouldn't mess with most people.
...unless you're wearing it.
--
snail @ careless net | Character is what you are in the dark! - Whorfin
snail
>"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> join in their sin. Do you think POD is witnessing to others on the
>> Ozzy tour? I highly doubt it. They are probably drinking and having
>> sex along with the rest.
>Guh...you have NO way to know their personal lives while on tour or
>otherwise.
Please don't feed the troll.
>there's nothing been said about POD being drunk either. Would i drink a beer
>with them? no. Only because i think beer tastes like piss smells.
You obviously tasting the wrong beers :)
>But one (or even several) beers will not necessarily get you drunk.
Actually defining the drunken moment can also be fun, particularly
if you've had a few.
TroutHound
"curse word" in What This Life is For.
Q: Why does Scott say "God damn" in "What's This Life For?"
"Why do we use GD in WTLF? First of all let me say that there was never an
intention of cursing God. It was strictly an emotional response to a tragic
situation of losing two friends to suicide. I know some of you live by the
words of never taking the Lord's name in vain, and I feel in my heart that
there was never that intention. Some of you will never agree with my use of
that word, and I respect your convictions. I guess this is between God and
me, and my heart has no conviction for the use of this word because I feel
God understood my situation. If some of you could look at the bigger picture
in that song and not focus on the word, you would understand that it is a
cry to the lost, put in a way that they could understand." -- Scott Stapp
And besides, God never damned anybody. We damn ourselves well enough when we
refuse to obey Him.
dt
--
Virtuosity
Spiritual Progressive Rock Reviews
http://home.att.net/~virtuosity
"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...> >
> > Is one "GD" enough for you to not consider someone a Christian? You'd
> > probably have serious doubts about me during a typically frustrating
> > day at work. Seems that your standards are higher than God's. :-)
>
> The problem is that we are not dealing with one "GD". I'm sure almost
> every Christian has said some foul words in their time out of
> frustration or anger. Yet, Creed made a conscious decision to
> blaspheme God openly on an album. Everytime someone plays that song,
> God is blasphemed. Any Christian artist that would commit such an
> act is seriously messed up.
>
PuzzleShift
A fundamentalist radical to be sure...
-PS
a&e debarros
"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> They are probably drinking and having
> sex along with the rest.
That's slander, unless you can prove it.
Rick Ludwig
Later in Christ,
Rick
"PuzzleShift" <five...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:92481609.02072...@posting.google.com...
Breezy
> And besides, God never damned anybody. We damn ourselves well enough when
we
> refuse to obey Him.
If someone is damned for not obeying God, it's God who does the damning. My
son doesn't send himself to his room. I do.
--
Be free,
Breezy
"It is a subtle effort to pose as deity ourselves by somehow sharing in the
shame of sins committed."
- Steve McVey www.gracewalk.org
Wednesday White
>Mark Salomon is tired of responding, which is why Stavesacre is washing its
>hands of the Christian subculture, as far as where they choose to sell their
>music and play.
>As for more of Mark's thoughts, he has a book coming out soon that I'm sure
>will address these topics.
Ooh! Ooh oh ooooh, must read, want --
>See http://www.skeletonkeypublishing.com
-- uhhhh, which has bugger all actual information. Pants.
Wednesday White
>If someone is damned for not obeying God, it's God who does the damning. My
>son doesn't send himself to his room. I do.
My parents used to send me to my room when I messed up. These days, my natural
response is to hide in my apartment.
PuzzleShift
> > community's eagerness to embrace any celebrity that vaguely hints at
> > being Christian.
>
> And the reason is that 90% of the mainstream CCM artists are just poor
> imitations of the so-called secular music scene.
BADDA-BING, BADDA-BOOM
('cept "poor" needs a LOT more emphasis)
-PS
PuzzleShift
> > folks...
>
> hands of the Christian subculture, as far as where they choose to sell their
> music and play.
>
> As for more of Mark's thoughts, he has a book coming out soon that I'm sure
> will address these topics.
>
HOT DANG, ARE YOU SERIOUS!?! I'm liking this trend! First, Andrew
Schwab publishes a truly ASTOUNDING incredible book of poetry and
writings, and now Mark Salomon sends us his thoughts on paper...
-PS
TroutHound
--
"Breezy" <breeze5...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dvE09.189691$uw.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> "TroutHound" wrote:
> > And besides, God never damned anybody. We damn ourselves well enough
when
> we
> > refuse to obey Him.
>
> If someone is damned for not obeying God, it's God who does the damning.
My
> son doesn't send himself to his room. I do.
God set the table with the hope that all would join in, but we choose
whether to eat or go hungry. It's called free will.
Breezy
> God set the table with the hope that all would join in, but we choose
> whether to eat or go hungry. It's called free will.
I set up my son's train track the other day, and with his free will he
pinched his sister. I sent him to his room and he didn't play with his
train. :)
Breezy
> My parents used to send me to my room when I messed up. These days, my
natural
> response is to hide in my apartment.
When I was 5 I hid in the basement and they never found me.
David Bruce Murray
>
> "Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > The problem is not so much with the artists, but with the Christian
> > community's eagerness to embrace any celebrity that vaguely hints at
> > being Christian.
>
> And the reason is that 90% of the mainstream CCM artists are just poor
> imitations of the so-called secular music scene.
That argument doesn't really fly, IMO. 90% of the secular industry is also
imitations. There's very little unique music in any field. Fans are
satisfied with imitations and blends of previous styles, so that's the way
it is.
Are you saying that CCM is so "bad" in general, due to imitation, that
artists from other fields are embraced because of the superior quality they
bring? I don't think that's the reason. I think it's because of the
celebrity that Christians want to be associated with their spokes people.
John Tesh wasn't embraced by the Christian market because of his unique
talent. He was embraced because he'd been successful as a TV host. He
doesn't come close to Michael W. Smith in terms of arranging skills or piano
playing ability. He's a little more interesting than Jim Brickman, but
that's about it.
This is sort of off the thread topic, but I just wanted to throw this in,
FWIW. There is a considerable amount of non-CCM genres (black gospel mass
choir, southern gospel quartets, piano/organ church music, etc.) where the
style is used almost uniquely with Christian lyrics. If fans are truly drawn
to things that are unique, these fields ought to be flourishing. The
majority of fans aren't drawn to what's unique, though. They are drawn to
celebrity, "clever" hooks, and whatever has the longest line of equally
non-discerning fans.
--
David Bruce Murray / dmurray...@rfci.net
www.musicscribe.com / www.rfci.net/dbmurray
www.mp3.com/ssq / www.mp3.com/virtualvirtuoso
--- Making hay while the sun shines ---
lifesabirch
> lifes...@yahoo.com (lifesabirch) wrote in message news:<103a5b9.02072...@posting.google.com>...
> > alvinst...@hotmail.com (Alvin) wrote in message news:<d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>...
> > > I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> > > Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> > > that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> > > of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> > > Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> > > the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> > > party, and how he was not able to get some.
> >
> > For one thing - you shouldn't base anything on an interview. Another,
> > always go to the source before stating something like this. Plus, this
> > is your own opinion of who a X-tian is and who isn't based on your own
> > interpretation and experience.
>
> It is highly unlikely that a mainstream magazine like Blender would
> fictionalize an interview with a popular artist. If they did that,
> Moby would be all over them with lawsuits. I base my opinion on the
> Bible.
Most interviews are cut and paste when printed and not sent to the
artist for approval beforehand. Moby isn't into lawsuits - he's a
X-tian so he wouldn't sue - unlike many X-tians who don't read their
bible about suing. Plus, he finds it funny how people think they know
him and slander him. Your biblical opinion is based on YOUR MODERN
interpretation of what YOU think the words mean.
>
>
> > Where did Jesus say anything against an orgy? Seems like you're hung
> > up on sex when sex in ancient times was very different than now - in
> > what's sin and what isn't. I'd venture to say Moby has more compassion
> > on all people than most X-tians - therefore maybe he's more like Jesus
> > than them.
>
> Lol, you're kidding right? Jesus makes it plain that sex is to be
> with one partner for life. I guess you missed the part about adultry
> huh? Jesus even said that lusting with eyes is sin.
I assume you're talking about a response he was making to the
Pharasees about divorce. Never said - this is the way for everyone.
He was talking to them specifically not to you or anyone else. And was
about if you marry, then a man can't just treat his wife with
disrepect and get rid of her.
What does adultery have to do with consenting adults doing something
that pleases them? Orgies don't have to include married people either.
Jesus was making a point about what comes from the heart and bad
intentions, not following the law for an etire chapter - concerning
the lust issue. It wasn't about lusting. I suppose you can argue that
mutually pleasing another does fall under the "love" catagory, but it
definitely doesn't have to be harmful. Quite the opposite, actually.
>
>
> > > I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > > sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > > their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> > > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
> >
> > Let's see:
> > 1. Creed doesn't use the name of Christ in the first place to boost
> > their albums - so that's a lie. Is there a word - GD? How many times
> > does one have to use the word GD to be Christian? And did Jesus say
> > anything about this?
> > 2. POD - Heaven forbid if someone drinks, parties, and hangs out with
> > "sinners" - woops - Jesus would have to be included in this.
> >
> > >
> > > Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> > > the body of Christ.
> >
> > Yes, people who slander others like this thread.
>
> Does "shut up" count as slander?
That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian than
you.
lifesabirch
How is it free will when you weren't involved in the setting the table
in the first place? God set the rules of who gets to eat there and who
doesn't by doing this or that. That's conditional. Suggesting it isn't
so free. We have choices whether or not to strive to get to the table
by following the rules. Which is fine in that sense, I suppose. But
who's god rules?
Yet, so much suggests it is all so preordained who gets to eat and
who doesn't...hmm, freewill?
Alvin
> > > > Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> > > > thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> > > > that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> > > > of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> > > > Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> > > > the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> > > > party, and how he was not able to get some.
> > > For one thing - you shouldn't base anything on an interview. Another,
> > > always go to the source before stating something like this. Plus, this
> > > is your own opinion of who a X-tian is and who isn't based on your own
> > > interpretation and experience.
> >
> > It is highly unlikely that a mainstream magazine like Blender would
> > fictionalize an interview with a popular artist. If they did that,
> > Moby would be all over them with lawsuits. I base my opinion on the
> > Bible.
>
> Most interviews are cut and paste when printed and not sent to the
> artist for approval beforehand. Moby isn't into lawsuits - he's a
> X-tian so he wouldn't sue - unlike many X-tians who don't read their
> bible about suing. Plus, he finds it funny how people think they know
> him and slander him. Your biblical opinion is based on YOUR MODERN
> interpretation of what YOU think the words mean.
Moby stated specifically in the interview that he was not a Christian.
Even with cut and paste, the question is did he say this, or is
Blender lying?
> >
> > > Where did Jesus say anything against an orgy? Seems like you're hung
> > > up on sex when sex in ancient times was very different than now - in
> > > what's sin and what isn't. I'd venture to say Moby has more compassion
> > > on all people than most X-tians - therefore maybe he's more like Jesus
> > > than them.
> >
> > Lol, you're kidding right? Jesus makes it plain that sex is to be
> > with one partner for life. I guess you missed the part about adultry
> > huh? Jesus even said that lusting with eyes is sin.
>
> I assume you're talking about a response he was making to the
> Pharasees about divorce. Never said - this is the way for everyone.
> He was talking to them specifically not to you or anyone else. And was
> about if you marry, then a man can't just treat his wife with
> disrepect and get rid of her.
I'm speaking about the Bible as a whole which clearly shows that
premarital sex is wrong, and goes against God's laws of nature.
> What does adultery have to do with consenting adults doing something
> that pleases them? Orgies don't have to include married people either.
> Jesus was making a point about what comes from the heart and bad
> intentions, not following the law for an etire chapter - concerning
> the lust issue. It wasn't about lusting. I suppose you can argue that
> mutually pleasing another does fall under the "love" catagory, but it
> definitely doesn't have to be harmful. Quite the opposite, actually.
You have a warped sense of Christianity. Most Christians agree that
sex with multiple partners is displeasing to God.
> >
> > > > I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > > > sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > > > their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> > > > they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
> > >
> > > Let's see:
> > > 1. Creed doesn't use the name of Christ in the first place to boost
> > > their albums - so that's a lie. Is there a word - GD? How many times
> > > does one have to use the word GD to be Christian? And did Jesus say
> > > anything about this?
> > > 2. POD - Heaven forbid if someone drinks, parties, and hangs out with
> > > "sinners" - woops - Jesus would have to be included in this.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> > > > the body of Christ.
> > >
> > > Yes, people who slander others like this thread.
> >
> > Does "shut up" count as slander?
>
> That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian than
> you.
I bet ya think God loves homosexuality too huh?
Joy
> > That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian than
> > you.
>
> I bet ya think God loves homosexuality too huh?
Let's not start this discussion again. It's soooo tedious, especially when
those arguing are Googling, so it takes ten times longer. One can easily
search Google and find Lifesabirch's views of homosexuality. Easy peasy.
I've given up on arguments. "Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with
each of the contestants being more firmly convinced than ever that he is
absolutely right." Wise man, that Carnegie.
peace,
JOY
<((><
snail
>"Alvin" wrote:
>> > That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian than
>Let's not start this discussion again. It's soooo tedious, especially when
Were you expecting anything different from the troll :)
Joy
> Joy <queen_y...@THIShotmail.com> wrote:
> >"Alvin" wrote:
> >> > That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian
than
> >> I bet ya think God loves homosexuality too huh?
>
> >Let's not start this discussion again. It's soooo tedious, especially
when
>
> Were you expecting anything different from the troll :)
Hmm, guess not. <shrug>
Brian Healy
> I had been hearing from several sources mentioning that Moby was a
> Bible believing Christian. Unfortunately, this is merely wishful
> thinking. After reading a Blender interview with Moby, I am convinced
> that other than being soft spoken, Moby is no different from the rest
> of the ungodly world. He did admit that he likes the teachings of
> Christ, but does not consider himself a Christian. A great deal of
> the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
> party, and how he was not able to get some.
>
> I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
>
> Christians need to be careful of the people that claim to be part of
> the body of Christ.
And always beware any attempts to kick people out of the body of Christ
because of your personal beliefs.....
Gosh Alvin not to split hair here but unless your God your auguring out
of ignorance.
Btw did you ever read about all the sinners Jesus hung out with in the
bible? Good thing Gods standards are lower than yours......
Grace & Peace,
Brian Healy
Alvin
Yes, I did, but Jesus did not approve of their actions.
Brian Healy
Alvin wrote:
>
> Yes, I did, but Jesus did not approve of their actions.
I see and making wine in at a wedding for a bunch of party goers is an act of disapproval to you ?
Jesus can serve wine and hang with sinners and others can't ? Is that your point ? Because if it is
I'd say you would have to leave planet earth because at some level we all approve of some degree of
sin everyday either actively or passively. Perhaps you should take your "version" of christianity
out of the small box you've built for it so mere mortals can access it. Of course to extend grace as
God has may allow sinner in the body of Christ ya know and I don't think you'd like it too much,
fortunately God seems to view the world a little differently than you .
lifesabirch
> Moby stated specifically in the interview that he was not a Christian.
> Even with cut and paste, the question is did he say this, or is
> Blender lying?
ok. You're right. I don't think he wants to be called a Christian, but
likes some of His teachings and doings. Moby doesn't want to be
associated with the word Christian and what it seems to conotate in
today's society. The loudest ones seem to do the most damage to
Christ's name. aka Falwell, Robertson, Dobson.
> I'm speaking about the Bible as a whole which clearly shows that
> premarital sex is wrong, and goes against God's laws of nature.
Oh, you're talking about that collection of letters and scribblings
from ancient men that has been rewritten and translated,
misinterpreted thru modern understanding, has no original manuscripts,
is racist, sexist, xenophobic, mysogenic, condones slavery as
property, homophobic, etc... then put a label on as the Word of God
for all men for all time in every situation? And had 5 more books
cannonized (where are those??), and was voted on by a commity of men
by a margin of 5 votes as infallible? Ok. I've never seen any
premarital sex as wrong in the bible - well, at least for men. Men
were higher. Patriarchal society, you know.
>
> You have a warped sense of Christianity. Most Christians agree that
> sex with multiple partners is displeasing to God.
Oh thanx - I like to be warped. Then again, I think God does too. Are
you God? Have you actually talked to him and found all this out? Or
follow what some guys in an ancient culture said, and you believe that
is what God said. Ok by me. Most X-tians agreed for centuries that
owning people of a different race and not letting women speak out or
vote was ok with God. Plus most X-tians try to follow the entire
Bible, where multible partners were common in the OT - and ok'd by
God.
> >
> > That's adult and Christ-like. More proof that Moby is more X-tian than
> > you.
>
> I bet ya think God loves homosexuality too huh?
Um, I'll let you defer to Joy. I partially agree with her. Everyone
has their opinions and it's hard to get them to your side. But I do
think knowledge is a good thing, discussion can be enlightening, even
if down the road. I have changed my mind with more information on
things. It's called progress and growing up.
PuzzleShift
> >
> > Moby stated specifically in the interview that he was not a Christian.
> > Even with cut and paste, the question is did he say this, or is
> > Blender lying?
>
> ok. You're right. I don't think he wants to be called a Christian, but
> likes some of His teachings and doings. Moby doesn't want to be
> associated with the word Christian and what it seems to conotate in
> today's society. The loudest ones seem to do the most damage to
> Christ's name. aka Falwell, Robertson, Dobson.
DOBSON?!?! Damage to Christ's name?! If anything he's one of the few
upright Christians who refuse to water down the truth or bend to the
will of any and all liberal, please-everyone notions that come from
all over these days. I suppose you say he damages Christ's name
because his views give rise to controversy in the American political
and cultural worlds, right? That, my friend, is the mark of a man
doing God's work. We're told, in God's Word no less, that we are to
expect the world to hate us if we do the will of God. Props to Dobson
for not giving in to the people-pleasers.
> > I'm speaking about the Bible as a whole which clearly shows that
> > premarital sex is wrong, and goes against God's laws of nature.
>
> Oh, you're talking about that collection of letters and scribblings
> from ancient men that has been rewritten and translated,
> misinterpreted thru modern understanding, has no original manuscripts,
> is racist, sexist, xenophobic, mysogenic, condones slavery as
> property, homophobic, etc... then put a label on as the Word of God
> for all men for all time in every situation? And had 5 more books
> cannonized (where are those??), and was voted on by a commity of men
> by a margin of 5 votes as infallible? Ok. I've never seen any
> premarital sex as wrong in the bible - well, at least for men. Men
> were higher. Patriarchal society, you know.
Oh, that explains it. You don't believe in the Bible. So of course
it wouldn't be apparent to you that Dobson is an upright Christian,
marked by opposition from the world. How can you claim to know all
those things about the Bible, i.e. everything that is wrong with it,
and yet have no clue about what it says concerning sexual sin?
Just because the norms of an ancient culture are portrayed in the
Bible doesn't mean that God condoned it, or that we are live the same
way. However, those commands given by God as Christ still apply,
including the ones about sexual immorality, which includes the likes
of orgies and premarital sex. Honestly, have you READ the New
Testament?
> > You have a warped sense of Christianity. Most Christians agree that
> > sex with multiple partners is displeasing to God.
>
> Oh thanx - I like to be warped. Then again, I think God does too. Are
> you God? Have you actually talked to him and found all this out? Or
> follow what some guys in an ancient culture said, and you believe that
> is what God said. Ok by me. Most X-tians agreed for centuries that
> owning people of a different race and not letting women speak out or
> vote was ok with God. Plus most X-tians try to follow the entire
> Bible, where multible partners were common in the OT - and ok'd by
> God.
Yes, most Christians did agree for centuries on many things like that.
Does that mean they were right?
It sounds to me like you're taking the fact that things such as sexism
and racism and xenophobia are in the Bible and automatically assuming
that, since it appears in there, the Bible must condone it. Just like
one of those stupid TV shows where they "investigate" Christianity. I
saw one about witchcraft, and they mentioned witchcraft in the Bible,
and said "although the Bible states that witchcraft is sinful, it
still includes instances in which witches or fortune tellers are
consulted" and the tone was one of mockery. Nevermind the fact that
those instances in the Bible were presented as sin, and they had their
consequences...
-PS
PuzzleShift
-PS
CDriver333
>> sex with multiple partners is displeasing to God.
>
>Oh thanx - I like to be warped. Then again, I think God does too.
See what happens when you feed the trolls?
N.T
wheather it sounds good and if the lyrics are acceptible, I don't see why
other don't do the same.
btw. by acceptible lyrics I mean that there can be no offencive content or
anything that would contradict my beliefs
Breezy
> btw. by acceptible lyrics I mean that there can be no offencive content or
> anything that would contradict my beliefs
Right, we wouldn't want songs about booze or sex, or things like that. :)
Your navel is a rounded goblet;
It lacks no blended beverage.
Your waist is a heap of wheat
Set about with lilies.
Your two breasts are like two fawns,
Twins of a gazelle.
How fair and how pleasant you are,
O love, with your delights!
This stature of yours is like a palm tree,
And your breasts like its clusters.
I said, "I will go up to the palm tree,
I will take hold of its branches."
Let now your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
The fragrance of your breath like apples,
And the roof of your mouth like the best wine.
N.T
life for", maybe someone should ask creed about that on the FAQ board or
e-mail them asking why they had that in their song.
"Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...
> vap...@prism.gatech.edu (Jerry B. Ray, Jr.) wrote in message
news:<ahp3tr$srb$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>...
> > In article <d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>,
> > Alvin <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I am sick of celebrities using the name of Christ to boost their album
> > >sales. For example, I do not consider Creed to be Christians since
> > >their first album contains the GD word in one song. POD is suspect as
> > >they tour with Ozzy, and enjoy drinking beer and partying.
> >
> > Didn't Moby's biggest album sales (_Play_ and the new one) come well
after
> > the period where he was most strongly identified with Christianity (the
> > mid-90s)?
> >
> > Is one "GD" enough for you to not consider someone a Christian? You'd
> > probably have serious doubts about me during a typically frustrating
> > day at work. Seems that your standards are higher than God's. :-)
>
> The problem is that we are not dealing with one "GD". I'm sure almost
> every Christian has said some foul words in their time out of
> frustration or anger. Yet, Creed made a conscious decision to
> blaspheme God openly on an album. Everytime someone plays that song,
> God is blasphemed. Any Christian artist that would commit such an
> act is seriously messed up.
>
>
>
> > Dunno about the beer and partying (I don't know much about POD, but
there's
> > nothing inherently wrong with beer or partying), but didn't Jesus
himself
> > tour with Ozzy? (Or at least eat dinner with sinners? :-)
> >
> > JRjr
>
>
>
> Sounds like you might be messed up too.
N.T
that big of a problem.
"TroutHound" <trout...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5Ro09.5556$pg2.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Well, Alvinoid, here's what the man Mr. Stapp has to say about his little
> "curse word" in What This Life is For.
>
> Q: Why does Scott say "God damn" in "What's This Life For?"
>
> "Why do we use GD in WTLF? First of all let me say that there was never
an
> intention of cursing God. It was strictly an emotional response to a
tragic
> situation of losing two friends to suicide. I know some of you live by the
> words of never taking the Lord's name in vain, and I feel in my heart that
> there was never that intention. Some of you will never agree with my use
of
> that word, and I respect your convictions. I guess this is between God and
> me, and my heart has no conviction for the use of this word because I feel
> God understood my situation. If some of you could look at the bigger
picture
> in that song and not focus on the word, you would understand that it is a
> cry to the lost, put in a way that they could understand." -- Scott Stapp
>
>
> And besides, God never damned anybody. We damn ourselves well enough when
we
> refuse to obey Him.
>
> dt
> --
>
> Virtuosity
> Spiritual Progressive Rock Reviews
> http://home.att.net/~virtuosity
>
> "Alvin" <alvinst...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com...> >
N.T
everyone in this town in which I live did something wrong against me.
"Wednesday White" <we...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message
news:weds.10...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net...
lifesabirch
Am I the troll or he? Now, if he is, I'll feed him oats and barley. If
I am, I prefer Ben & Jerry's Chubby Hubby. :)
lifesabirch
> DOBSON?!?! Damage to Christ's name?! If anything he's one of the few
> upright Christians who refuse to water down the truth or bend to the
> will of any and all liberal, please-everyone notions that come from
> all over these days. I suppose you say he damages Christ's name
> because his views give rise to controversy in the American political
> and cultural worlds, right? That, my friend, is the mark of a man
> doing God's work. We're told, in God's Word no less, that we are to
> expect the world to hate us if we do the will of God. Props to Dobson
> for not giving in to the people-pleasers.
Didn't people hate Hitler, yet he thought he was doing the will of
God?
So you're saying Dobson lives to make "war", not love. True. When you
start with a premise of us vs. them - everyone suffers and becomes
very divisional. I guess it's taken from the Bible and I can see why.
What is all this us vs. the world jumbo? If you mean us, ie: love,
don't harm, treat others with respect vs. the world, ie: hate,
harming, lack of respect - I'm all for the us part. I just see Dobson
in the world part.
You have one opinion. I have another. cool.
> Oh, that explains it. You don't believe in the Bible. So of course
> it wouldn't be apparent to you that Dobson is an upright Christian,
> marked by opposition from the world. How can you claim to know all
> those things about the Bible, i.e. everything that is wrong with it,
> and yet have no clue about what it says concerning sexual sin?
> Just because the norms of an ancient culture are portrayed in the
> Bible doesn't mean that God condoned it, or that we are live the same
> way. However, those commands given by God as Christ still apply,
> including the ones about sexual immorality, which includes the likes
> of orgies and premarital sex. Honestly, have you READ the New
> Testament?
How can one NOT believe in the Bible? It exists. Just it's claims are
hard to prove. Some are culturally bound and hard to understand. One
read will show alot of good and alot of bad. But must be read in
context and culture to get what is written. It's hard when most can
only go by faulty English translations.
Why follow a command when it harms others?? Throw it out and chalk it
up for that time, not now.
I really don't remember Jesus being concerned about group or
premarital sex. Paul seemed more concerned about it I suppose since he
was going to other cultures. He seems to condemn it only in the
context of using it for idol worship, much like same sex activity.
That is not done in today's modern society. Paul was very puritan.
Wanting most to be celibate. Most Christians are not - guess they are
not following protocol.
How is any kind of consentual sex going against 'do unto others as
you would have done unto you' or 'love one another' or even 'love
God'? All these things can be done at once. You may not agree, but is
done all the time.
It wasn't in the mindset of Jewish culture at that time. Marriage was
a business deal between two families. How much IS that bride worth? No
dating, no Christian counseling. Aah! Today's Christian would run from
that notion screaming. All that romance gives me chills. And yes, God
did condone multiple partners, albiet married men and their wives or
concubines. It wasn't another culture nor repugnant to God.
>
> > > You have a warped sense of Christianity. Most Christians agree that
> > > sex with multiple partners is displeasing to God.
> >
> > Oh thanx - I like to be warped. Then again, I think God does too. Are
> > you God? Have you actually talked to him and found all this out? Or
> > follow what some guys in an ancient culture said, and you believe that
> > is what God said. Ok by me. Most X-tians agreed for centuries that
> > owning people of a different race and not letting women speak out or
> > vote was ok with God. Plus most X-tians try to follow the entire
> > Bible, where multible partners were common in the OT - and ok'd by
> > God.
>
> Yes, most Christians did agree for centuries on many things like that.
> Does that mean they were right?
> It sounds to me like you're taking the fact that things such as sexism
> and racism and xenophobia are in the Bible and automatically assuming
> that, since it appears in there, the Bible must condone it. Just like
> one of those stupid TV shows where they "investigate" Christianity. I
> saw one about witchcraft, and they mentioned witchcraft in the Bible,
> and said "although the Bible states that witchcraft is sinful, it
> still includes instances in which witches or fortune tellers are
> consulted" and the tone was one of mockery. Nevermind the fact that
> those instances in the Bible were presented as sin, and they had their
> consequences...
Don't blame me. Blame other people reading the Bible fundamentally,
word for word and using it to justify their actions. Not unlike
today's Christians ostrasizing certain groups of people who don't fit
into their viewpoint. Not all are like this, but many. At least most
X-tians aren't using force nowdays - I guess they are growing up. It
just comes out in other ways, which can be damaging.
>
> -PS
Wednesday White
[song of songs/solomon]
>Your navel is a rounded goblet;
>It lacks no blended beverage.
I appreciate what the author was trying to accomplish with this passage, and
with the food/drink metaphors in general, but this was the one part I could
never wrap my head around, I'm afraid. Perhaps my kink's just different.
But, yeah. I dunno; maybe metaphor makes it easy to ignore the parts
people don't like.
Wednesday White
>I don't stay indoors because I did something wrong, I stay indoors because
>everyone in this town in which I live did something wrong against me.
Perhaps you should move.
(and learn not to top-post...rrrg)
TroutHound
"lifesabirch" <lifes...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:103a5b9.02072...@posting.google.com...
Ever read the Great Divorce, by C.S. Lewis?
dt
Cheef
<d2ec46.020725...@posting.google.com>:
>A great deal of
>the interview was spent with Moby talking about his grand sex orgy
>party, and how he was not able to get some.
So even if he's not a Christian, you both have something in common.
But seriously, you can say that you believe his actions are wrong, or that
his theology is messed up... but God's the judge who knows who's a sheep and
who's a goat.
Cheef
<4nR19.197705$Wt3.154581@rwcrnsc53>:
>Your two breasts are like two fawns,
>And your breasts like its clusters.
>Let now your breasts be like clusters of the vine,
Breasts?
Real Christians don't have breasts.
--
visit CHEEF.COM - Your CHEEF source for nudist info
Subscribe now to NUDIST NEWS! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nudist-news/
Breezy
> Breasts?
>
> Real Christians don't have breasts.
It must be one of those things they give up when they get saved.
Alvin
> Alvin wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, I did, but Jesus did not approve of their actions.
>
> I see and making wine in at a wedding for a bunch of party goers is an act of disapproval to you ?
> Jesus can serve wine and hang with sinners and others can't ? Is that your point ? Because if it is
1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
2. Jesus can serve wine, and so can Christians. The sin is with
getting drunk. Alcohol intoxication is Satan's version of being
filled with the Holy Spirit.
> I'd say you would have to leave planet earth because at some level we all approve of some degree of
> sin everyday either actively or passively. Perhaps you should take your "version" of christianity
> out of the small box you've built for it so mere mortals can access it. Of
3. We are all sinners, so unrighteous that we usually commit sin
without even knowing it unless the Holy Spirit convicts. However,
Christianity does not give us a license to sin as we please. Sin
destroys our spiritual life, and keeps us from being close to God.
Obviously, you're a troll that knows squat about Christianity.
course to extend grace as
> God has may allow sinner in the body of Christ ya know and I don't think you'd like it too much,
> fortunately God seems to view the world a little differently than you .
4. God loves sinners, but hates sin. Obviously, you do not know the
difference.
> Grace & Peace,
> Brian Healy
have a GOoD DaY
Susan Anderson
: Brian Healy <BrianHe...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3D46CE16...@verizon.net>...
:> Alvin wrote:
:>
:> > Yes, I did, but Jesus did not approve of their actions.
:>
:> I see and making wine in at a wedding for a bunch of party goers
:> is an act of disapproval to you ?
:> Jesus can serve wine and hang with sinners and others can't ? Is that
:> your point ? Because if it is
: 1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
You'd be wrong. If anyone is the moron...
: 2. Jesus can serve wine, and so can Christians. The sin is with
: getting drunk. Alcohol intoxication is Satan's version of being
: filled with the Holy Spirit.
And as I (and a couple of others I believe) pointed out... One can
have a glass of wine, or beer or whatever and not get drunk.
:> I'd say you would have to leave planet earth because at some
:> level we all approve of some degree of
:> sin everyday either actively or passively. Perhaps you should take
:> your "version" of christianity
:> out of the small box you've built for it so mere mortals can access it. Of
: 3. We are all sinners, so unrighteous that we usually commit sin
: without even knowing it unless the Holy Spirit convicts. However,
: Christianity does not give us a license to sin as we please. Sin
: destroys our spiritual life, and keeps us from being close to God.
: Obviously, you're a troll that knows squat about Christianity.
Obviously you don't know squat about Brian. I'd say his assessment
of you keeping your "version" of christianity in a small box is
pretty dang acccurate. Take off your blinders and take a look
at the world...it's a big beautiful place.
Susan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Susan
kee...@visi.com
Brian Healy
Alvin wrote:
> Brian Healy <BrianHe...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<3D46CE16...@verizon.net>...
> > Alvin wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Yes, I did, but Jesus did not approve of their actions.
> >
> > I see and making wine in at a wedding for a bunch of party goers is an act of disapproval to you ?
> > Jesus can serve wine and hang with sinners and others can't ? Is that your point ? Because if it is
>
> 1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
Name calling, nice retort.... and I guess since you think you speak for God speaking for others in the
newsgroup and assigning them your opinions is an easy step to take. How about you simply stick to your
own "opinion" and I'll simply stick to mine not assign them to others.
>
> 2. Jesus can serve wine, and so can Christians. The sin is with
> getting drunk. Alcohol intoxication is Satan's version of being
> filled with the Holy Spirit.
And in proverbs when God's word says to give beer to the poor to ease their misery why is God denying a
real manifestation of the holy spirit and using satan's false intoxication by your theory ? (That's more
like The Process but, not Christianity), Because using beer to relive misery would entail getting people
drunk to some degree. Drunkenness is a sin but, no worst than say arrogance and self righteousness which
can also be destructive... If your a sober thief I don't see how that's worst or better in the end than
a guy slamming fuzzy navels in his own home watching the Simpsons. What are your chosen boundaries for
your life may not be God's in anothers or on the same time schedule.
>
>
> > I'd say you would have to leave planet earth because at some level we all approve of some degree of
> > sin everyday either actively or passively. Perhaps you should take your "version" of christianity
> > out of the small box you've built for it so mere mortals can access it. Of
>
> 3. We are all sinners, so unrighteous that we usually commit sin
> without even knowing it unless the Holy Spirit convicts. However,
> Christianity does not give us a license to sin as we please. Sin
> destroys our spiritual life, and keeps us from being close to God.
I see God and his grace as bigger and more powerful than sin. I guess the function of God's grace is
very limited in your view of life as many sinners are very close to God in spite of their sin even if you
don't like it or believe it. The God of the bibles grace beyond salvation in many areas is not a one size
fits all proposition as you seem to imply but is a person al relationship where people learn and grow at
very different levels and times. Not a list of good and bad acts or deeds that are given plus or minuses
to access God. Perhaps you should delineate the difference between salvation and lordship as they are not
the same thing.
>
> Obviously, you're a troll that knows squat about Christianity.
Oh boy more name calling, And you would be wrong about that point too. Actually Alvin, I've been here in
RMC since 1995 and have been in ministry in one form or another most of my adult life. Rejecting your
fundamentalism based opinions doesn't mean I reject fundamentals nor do I limited Christianity to my
opinion or interpretation as your comments and views seem imply you choose to do.
>
>
> course to extend grace as
> > God has may allow sinner in the body of Christ ya know and I don't think you'd like it too much,
> > fortunately God seems to view the world a little differently than you .
>
> 4. God loves sinners, but hates sin. Obviously, you do not know the
> difference.
No I do, you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about certain sins of others while ignoring the hostile
nature of your own pronouncements based on your personal opinion that you seem to pass off as if they
themselves are in fact biblical in stature. After all you really have no idea who is or isn't in fact a
Christian so your speculating at best.
> > Grace & Peace,
> > Brian Healy
>
> have a GOoD DaY
I have so far...
David Bruce Murray
"Cheef" <ch...@cheef.com> wrote in message
news:Xns925D5CB...@207.217.77.21...
> Breasts?
>
> Real Christians don't have breasts.
Actually they do, but they come deep fried in a crispy batter and get served
up in a KFC bucket . . . at least, that goes for Southern Baptists. ;o)
--
David Bruce Murray / dmurray...@rfci.net
www.musicscribe.com / www.rfci.net/dbmurray
www.mp3.com/ssq / www.mp3.com/virtualvirtuoso
--- Making hay while the sun shines ---
Rick Hudspeth
[snip]
> 1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
I disagree.
[snip]
> Obviously, you're a troll that knows squat about Christianity.
Not obvious to me.
[snip]
> 4. God loves sinners, but hates sin. Obviously, you do not know the
> difference.
Speaking of trolls...
Rick
Cheef
<d2ec46.020801...@posting.google.com>:
>1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
Well, consider this at least one severe bit of disagreement.
>3. We are all sinners, so unrighteous that we <snip>
May I suggest the best conclusion to this sentence is:
"... so unrighteous that we commit murder by calling our brother a fool."
Wednesday White
>"Cheef" wrote:
>> Real Christians don't have breasts.
>It must be one of those things they give up when they get saved.
That must be why it didn't take. They forgot the mastectomy. Sodding American
health care system. Too expensive.
-- w. OW?!
Breezy
"Alvin" wrote:
> 1. You're a moron. I dont think I will get much disagreement here.
How many strikes before you're out? While Brian could use a little help
with his political views, he's far from a moron. ;)
> 2. Jesus can serve wine, and so can Christians. The sin is with
> getting drunk.
The guests at the wedding "had well drunk" when Jesus presented them with
the "good wine." As others have said, a beer or a glass of wine won't
necessarily get you drunk, but if you've "well drunk" some wine and then get
some more wine, wouldn't the person presenting the wine be guilty of helping
you sin? That is, IF the mere state of being intoxicated is sin.
> Alcohol intoxication is Satan's version of being
> filled with the Holy Spirit.
Just because one thing is better than the other, doesn't mean that the least
acceptable one is of the devil. It may be based upon "fleshly" wants and
desires as opposed to spiritual and godly desires but that doesn't mean it's
always wrong, just as wanting to be rich is a fleshly desire but isn't
necessarily a sin.
> 3. We are all sinners, so unrighteous that we usually commit sin
> without even knowing it unless the Holy Spirit convicts.
In Christ, we're all righteous and we often ignore the Spirit convicting us
of it. John 16:9 says that those who are convicted of sin are convicted
"because they do not believe in Me." Those who believe are not convicted
nor condemned. John 16:10 points out that the Holy Spirit also convicts
people of righteousness.
> However,
> Christianity does not give us a license to sin as we please.
I don't think I saw anywhere that Brian was saying grace is a license to
sin.
> Sin destroys our spiritual life, and keeps us from being close to God.
The thing that destroys our spiritual life is unbelief. Being close to God
is based upon the work and blood of Jesus. As I said, most of us ignore the
Spirit breathing righteousness and life in us because we're too busy
pointing out sins (of ourselves and ohters). We wallow around in guilt or
we try to make others do it, totally killing the Spirit of Grace (see
signature below).
> Obviously, you're a troll that knows squat about Christianity.
I've seen Brian write quite a bit here in rmc that would seriously deflate
both of those theories.