Tooth and Nail and MTV...I'm scared
Pete Stewart
>
>Hey, I'm starting to hear all kinds of ugliness about Tooth and Nail
>being on MTV, and I ain't talking about MTV Sports, I'm talking about
videos.
> This is starting to frighten me. Now, I don't give a crap if
>they only show up on 120 every now and then, that's cool, but I'll cry
>like if MxPx or someone like that ends up with a buzzclip so all the
>crappy posers can go buy it. Can someone clear this stuff up for me I
>realize that a lot of stuff seen on shows like 120 minutes are prime
>buzzclip material,but never go anywhere because of the low-time record
>label, so I can see it not being likely T&N gets buzzclips.Anyway, I'm
>paranoid about my fv. bands going mainstream.Help me understand what's
>going on?
>
>Godspeed,
>pARASITE
>Luke 12:49,50
>
>"The Bible kicks a**." - Beavis
Why do you like MxPx in the first place? Is it because they're on a
indie label? Is it because they haven't sold alot of records? Is it
because alot of people in the mainstream audience don't have their
record and you do? Is it because they're a good band? (hint: one of
these is a good reason to like a band; the rest are really dumb reasons
to like a band)
Fans who are more enamored with liking a band that only a few select
alternative music listeners are into than just liking a band because
they make killer music are not really fans. It's just like when
Nirvana actually got success with Nevermind. All of a sudden there
were all these letters going to Seattle underground rock zines like The
Rocket saying they didn't want to hear about Nirvana anymore, because
evryone else liked them now. How stupid! Who's the "posers" in that
scenario? Who's more concerned with the image than the music?
If a band sells out and writes cheezy crappy music (like so many CCM
band have done) just to sell records and "go mainstream", THEN I can
see a reason for being upset, even pissed off about it. Unless MxPx
starts to actually live down to their critics' words and rip off Green
Day (which I don't think they ever have), there's no reason not to be
psyched if they make it on MTV.
--Pete Stewart
William Constantine Tsimpris
: Hey, I'm starting to hear all kinds of ugliness about Tooth and Nail
: being on MTV, and I ain't talking about MTV Sports, I'm talking about videos.
Huh, and I thought most MTV videos were already ugly :)
: This is starting to frighten me. Now, I don't give a crap if
: they only show up on 120 every now and then, that's cool, but I'll cry
: like if MxPx or someone like that ends up with a buzzclip so all the
: crappy posers can go buy it. Can someone clear this stuff up for me? I
: realize that a lot of stuff seen on shows like 120 minutes are prime cut
: buzzclip material, but never go anywhere because of the low-time record
: label, so I can see it not being likely T&N gets buzzclips. Anyway, I'm
So _what_ is the problem?
: paranoid about my fv. bands going mainstream. Help me understand what's
: going on?
Well, I think we got a diagnosis here. _You_ don't want _your_ band
to be listened by other people. Just don't want to share your boys MxPx,
eh? Well, I can certainly respect your opinions and desires, pARASITE,
but let's try to sort through some readily apparent logical fallacies.
(1) You don't want MxPx to be popular. I mean, that's understandable,
you like 'em and all and it would be kinda like fair-weather fans jumping on
the Seattle Mariners' bandwagon right now if people out of the blue
started liking MxPx, right? Yours is a common desire. Unfortunately,
this desire is diametrically opposed to the purpose of people forming
bands in the first place, namely to be successful. Now, you can rattle
off names of underground Seattle bands who say they're perfectly content
playing in front of 150 die-hard fans every night and just scraping by on
the bare essentials of life, and I'll say pooh-ie. Yeah, right. Look,
musical groups are given a gift, a talent (some more than others:) and it
is human nature to want to display that and receive gratification. It's
like my best friend. He's an awesome jazz pianist and plays in front of
large crowds partly to hear crowds roar. There's nothing wrong with
that, and it's a feeling undoubtedly shared by MxPx, or any other band.
To put it this way, if MTV had them shoot a video with serious
"buzzclipability" do you think they'd turn it down? No way.
Which leads me to (2)A video on MTV (especially if you're good, which
MxPx is) opens so many windows, not just for their careers, but for the
spreading of the Gospel. What does MTV show nowadays? Some okay stuff,
some bad stuff, some good stuff, and a lot of godless stuff, from NiN to
Filter to whatever. And now comes MxPx, and then who knows? (Fill in
Christian group: Prayer Chain, Sixpence, poor old lu, you name it) Think
of the windows just one good MxPx video might open up. So, my MxPx fan,
friend, and fellow Christian, this is why if I were you and I heard MxPx
or any other T & N group was working its way up the MTV "food chain" I'd
be dancing a jig.
: Godspeed,
: pARASITE
: Luke 12:49,50
God bless,
BASIL T
Phil 4:13
: "The Bible kicks a**." - Beavis
"Uh, huh, Christ is cool." - Butthead
--
*****************************************
"Did you order the Code Red?!"
"I did the job that--"
"Did you order the Code Red?!!"
"I'm pretty sure I did!"
--A FEW GOOD MEN
(made-for-TV version)
*****************************************
Che...@ix.netcom.com
> Hey, I'm starting to hear all kinds of ugliness about Tooth and Nail
> being on MTV, and I ain't talking about MTV Sports, I'm talking about videos.
> they only show up on 120 every now and then, that's cool, but I'll cry
> like if MxPx or someone like that ends up with a buzzclip so all the
> crappy posers can go buy it. Can someone clear this stuff up for me? I
> realize that a lot of stuff seen on shows like 120 minutes are prime cut
> buzzclip material, but never go anywhere because of the low-time record
> label, so I can see it not being likely T&N gets buzzclips. Anyway, I'm
> going on?
Hmmm....I'm not a big MxPx fan...I do have thier latest release though, and I
would think them going mainstream would be good. If people everywhere starting
buying "Teenage Politics", that would be awesome. God is mentioned alot on the
cd, and who knows, some people could actually wake up spirtually from it.
Of couse this is just MHO, and I think it could be a good thing, as long as the guys
don't get carried away with it, or start changing their lyrics...(which I don't think will
happen, from what I've heard about them).
In a ccm mag interview, they mentioned that they like to sing to non-christian audiences,
cuz they don't just want to be singing to believers. They want to be reaching people with
thier music...and MTV is a great way for them to do just that.
Bobthony
Phil
like them for being underground. All I'm saying is I'm scared of "my"
bands going mainstream (pARASITE'S dEFINITIONStm...mainstream: when a
band has exposure to the point of almost OVERexposure and gets picked up
by all kinds of trendies that you wanna punch). I'd hate for kids at my
school to diss Havalina or MxPx or Blenderhead or any other band, and
then a month later be like all into them and have them STILL think
they're better than me, y'know? Anyway, the whole purpose of my post was
just to see if there was any truth to these rumors. Again, I don't care
if I see them on MTV, like on Superock or 120 Minutes or some other
underground show, I'm just afraid of them getting all huge and stuff,
y'know? Anyway, His Will be done, right, no matter how much it might
kick my butt.
Godspeed,
pARASITE
Luke 12:49,50
"Hell sucks." - Bill & Ted
Phil
: dem...@news.gate.net (Phil) wrote:
: >Hey, I'm starting to hear all kinds of ugliness about Tooth and Nail
: >being on MTV, and I ain't talking about MTV Sports, I'm talking about videos.
: > This is starting to frighten me. Now, I don't give a crap if
: >they only show up on 120 every now and then, that's cool, but I'll cry
: >like if MxPx or someone like that ends up with a buzzclip so all the
: >crappy posers can go buy it. Can someone clear this stuff up for me? I
: >realize that a lot of stuff seen on shows like 120 minutes are prime cut
: >buzzclip material, but never go anywhere because of the low-time record
: >label, so I can see it not being likely T&N gets buzzclips. Anyway, I'm
: >paranoid about my fv. bands going mainstream. Help me understand what's
: >going on?
: Sorry, gotta rant for a second.
: What exactly is the big deal here? Oh NO! We wouldn't want our
: favorite bands to actually, like, MAKE MONEY or anything! Has it
: occured to you that non-conformity can become conformity, and the
: avoidance of trends can become the ultimate trend?
: the think-it-over KCMOSHer
Boy, it sure is reasurring to know that when all I want to know is
whether or not T&N will be on MTV or not, I get flamed by pissy people
who won't let me have my own opinion.
pARASITE
fish
>Okay, it's not just MxPx or anything I'm worried about, and I DON'T just
>like them for being underground. All I'm saying is I'm scared of "my"
>bands going mainstream (pARASITE'S dEFINITIONStm...mainstream: when a
>band has exposure to the point of almost OVERexposure and gets picked up
>by all kinds of trendies that you wanna punch). I'd hate for kids at my
>school to diss Havalina or MxPx or Blenderhead or any other band, and
>then a month later be like all into them and have them STILL think
>they're better than me, y'know?
i really cant understand your point... if the band is good wouldnt you
want as many people listening to them as possible. what is your deal
with worring about who is better... you know its only rock 'n' roll...
and if i know i wish that my fave bands would have all the sucess in the
world... so they can feed there kids and afford health insurance...
--
___________
/ \ / "does anybody care about justice?/
/ 0 fish \/ three billion nothings in the world/
\ /\ and the spirit weeps for all of us"
\ ___________ / \ - adam again | dig
Shannon Lee Lewis
>
> Reply to: The KCMOSHer
>
> RE: TOOTH AND NAIL AND MTV...I'M SCARED
>
>
> Sat, 14 Oct 1995 08:30:37 GMT
> Newsgroups:
> rec.music.christian
> Reply to newsgroup(s)
> References:
> <45k03t$1s...@navajo.gate.net>
>dem...@news.gate.net (Phil) wrote:
>
>>Hey, I'm starting to hear all kinds of ugliness about Tooth and Nail
>>being on MTV, and I ain't talking about MTV Sports, I'm talking about videos.
>> This is starting to frighten me. Now, I don't give a crap if
>>they only show up on 120 every now and then, that's cool, but I'll cry
>>like if MxPx or someone like that ends up with a buzzclip so all the
>>crappy posers can go buy it. Can someone clear this stuff up for me? I
>>realize that a lot of stuff seen on shows like 120 minutes are prime cut
>>buzzclip material, but never go anywhere because of the low-time record
>>label, so I can see it not being likely T&N gets buzzclips. Anyway, I'm
>>paranoid about my fv. bands going mainstream. Help me understand what's
>>going on?
>
>Sorry, gotta rant for a second.
>
>What exactly is the big deal here? Oh NO! We wouldn't want our
>favorite bands to actually, like, MAKE MONEY or anything! Has it
>occured to you that non-conformity can become conformity, and the
>avoidance of trends can become the ultimate trend?
>
>the think-it-over KCMOSHer
As a fan of indie music, sorry to say -- when culture grasps onto something, it
attempts to tame and blend what it likes about it into it's culture...it
devours the style, or trend or whatever -- turning the once pure style into
crap that EVERYONE clones...look @ what happened to heavy metal...originally
pure, and underground...got popular, tamed, cloned, hybrid and turned into a
REALLY boring fad that everyone thought was cool, although those people held
none of the heavy metal standards (posers). Music for the underground isn't
just the sound....it's the lifestyle...the attitudes, the standards...they are
all tied together.
punk was a lifestyle...now it's a fad, soon to be fading fast,
as grunge is quickly,
and as was heavy metal...
only when music is made for musics sake, not particulaly for popularity does it
maintain it's pure form.
Another bad thing...if a band releases an indie release that suddenly gets
popular labels worship them and they sign their life over to a label that's
going to manipulate them into something even they never indended...then they
HAVE to be popular since they are owned by the label...
Audio Adrenaline for instance(a more well known band) was virtually forced to
record a pop/hip hop/ hybrid album...
they started doing heavy metal...
the lead vocalist's favorite band @ the time was Vengeance Rising...
or was it the guitarists...
anyway...
yo see my point?
not that you're wrong,
but neither is he...
both sides of the story
shannon
--
-->shannon lee lewis (male)...5'8 1/2", 170 lbs. 22. 5th yr. O.U. T-com major
Audio engineer. Staff writer for the BRIDGE
http://linus.cs.ohiou.edu:80/~bridge/ -->don't be afraid to check it out!
vocalist and bassist for SET ON EDGE /
DTucker77
is terrible? I think not
BTW, JOhn Q Public is on 120 tonight!
Shannon Lee Lewis
>
> Reply to: Kennyhoo
>
> RE: TOOTH AND NAIL AND MTV...I'M SCARED
>
>
> America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
> Newsgroups:
> rec.music.christian
> Reply to newsgroup(s)
> References:
> <45k03t$1s...@navajo.gate.net>
>why all these bands are out there right?
too bad that's not the case -- for one;
we live to serve Christ...
we don't play music to do it,
we don't preach to do it,
we don't love to do it --
those things should all be expressions of us 'LIVING' for God,
and the message will get out if you are living for God.
So the band don't have to be playing for ministry purposes...
they can just as easily be playing because that is the gift that they
were given,
and they're using it...
Outreach doesn't have to be the motivation,
it, at least in my view, is what will be accomplished anyway if one is living
life by God's standards, or at least trying.
Another thing is --
if mainstream means alienating the type of people who mostly listen to this
sound of music,
who it seems is more of the target audience (if there were to be one) of most
tooth and nail bands, then mainstream will not be good for ministry @ all.
Most tooth and nail music, or @ least much of it has an indie sound --
that's what makes it so good, and such an effective ministry...
to the LOST...
not the type that watch MTV pop (alternative is also pop)
but the drug addict atheist (over generalization) that
follows TRUE punkers, and indie rockers around...
followers of talented bands like BRAINIAC,
BABE THE BLUE OX, TAR, etc and so on.
just one more opinion.
Phil
: >
: >
: > Reply to: The KCMOSHer
: >
: > RE: TOOTH AND NAIL AND MTV...I'M SCARED
: >
: >
: > Sat, 14 Oct 1995 08:30:37 GMT
: > Newsgroups:
: shannon
: --
: -->shannon lee lewis (male)...5'8 1/2", 170 lbs. 22. 5th yr. O.U. T-com major
: Audio engineer. Staff writer for the BRIDGE
: http://linus.cs.ohiou.edu:80/~bridge/ -->don't be afraid to check it out!
: vocalist and bassist for SET ON EDGE /
Thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou. Someone who sees it my way.
pARASITE
Scott Wills
You mean you wouldn't want thousands (millions!) listening to MxPx and
getting a good dose of the Gospel in their ears??????
You don't want YOUR precious music to be heard by outsiders? You don't
want your favorite bands to sell out?
This is utter crap (holding back from stronger words here).
Maybe GOD has a different plan -- you'll just have to accept that GOD
knows what he's doing, eh? I would freak out totally and jump off the
walls with excitement if a T&N band became a Buzz Clip.
Don't hold COOLNESS over PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL!
SKAUGHT
kro...@grove.ufl.edu
Scott Wills
Christians (!), or whoever---if they get to reach 100,000 teeny-bopper
MTV top 40 middle schoolers with Christ, that would outway the small
number of serious underground punk types who they would "alienate".
I don't care who the people are--just that they need Christ regardless of
whether they are cool people in the music scene or some homeless guy or
some rich preppie corporate executive who is a member of the Yacht Club...
If I had the choice of reaching 1000 people for Christ or 100,000 people
for Christ, which would I choose....? In this instance I believe the
quantity of people is more important the the quality of people (we're all
on the same level of quality to God, anyway).
So you'd rather have 1000 cool people go to heaven that 100,000
mainstream people who may/may not be dorks? Think about it.
and we're forgetting one thing--> GOD is in control...if God takes them
Big Time...who are we to whine about it? Rejoice that God is working
through us humans!
SKAUGHT
Shannon Lee Lewis
>
> Reply to: Scott Wills
>
> RE: TOOTH AND NAIL AND MTV...I'M SCARED
>
>
> Prodigy Services Company 1-800-PRODIGY
> Newsgroups:
> rec.music.christian
> Reply to newsgroup(s)
> References:
>I don't care if they reach their "orignial audience", which is mostly
>Christians (!), or whoever---if they get to reach 100,000 teeny-bopper
>MTV top 40 middle schoolers with Christ, that would outway the small
>number of serious underground punk types who they would "alienate".
here's where we're VERY different -- saving a 100,000 people that have the
opportunity to hear the gospel much more, and have a much better life, and
usually have a greater faith in a God...
or getting the message to people that probably have NEVER heard it,
not the real thing...
not with love...
probably the only message they've ever recieved from Christians is straight up
alienation and condemnation.
>
>I don't care who the people are--just that they need Christ regardless of
>whether they are cool people in the music scene or some homeless guy or
>some rich preppie corporate executive who is a member of the Yacht Club...
>
let one of the ga-gillion bands already focused (or potentially) focused on
that group minister to them...
I'm going to love the totally UnLOVED...
they need it and want it even more --
look who Jesus spent his time with.
>
>If I had the choice of reaching 1000 people for Christ or 100,000 people
>for Christ, which would I choose....? In this instance I believe the
>quantity of people is more important the the quality of people (we're all
>on the same level of quality to God, anyway).
>
exactly...we're all equally important before God...
if you can only successfully reach a certain number...
don't overstep your bounds just to reach more...
this kids need disciple-ship too!
>So you'd rather have 1000 cool people go to heaven that 100,000
>mainstream people who may/may not be dorks? Think about it.
>
I'm not saying that i don't want 'dorks' to go to heaven (that's not what I
consider them @ all...two different countercultures within U.S. culture...one
that is reached more often than the other)
WHY doesn't someone just minister to the LOST instead of middle-class church
kids who were either raised in a church and rejected it to do what they will in
school...o.k. over generalization.
anyway -- I feel as though TOO many bands are trying to reach TOO many
people...
what would happen if we functioned like a body...
and each did our own part?
instead of ALL trying to reach ALL and deadening our potential ministry and
focus?
catch it.
>and we're forgetting one thing--> GOD is in control...if God takes them
>Big Time...who are we to whine about it? Rejoice that God is working
>through us humans!
by the way -
I know A LOT of non-christians that listen to MORELLA's FOREST,
MXPX, and ESPECIALLY STARFLYER 59!
>
>SKAUGHT
peace,
William Constantine Tsimpris
: Boy, it sure is reasurring to know that when all I want to know is
: whether or not T&N will be on MTV or not, I get flamed by pissy people
: who won't let me have my own opinion.
: pARASITE
No, no, don't get me wrong, pARASITE, I really do respect your opinion
and know many people who would certainly agree with your opinion. Be
that as it may, I believe your opinion to be rather foolish and
short-sided. As I've said, the underground "indie" mindset just doesn't
harmonize with the mindest of any given musician (that's an extreme
statement--most musicians), and as far as being a witnessing tool, the
music is totally impotent without reaching the audience which needs it the
most. It's someone who wants to be a movie star yet refuses to do
anything other than low-budget movies.
BASIL T
Phil
: WHAT IS THIS CRAPOLA????
: SKAUGHT
Ahhh, yet another brother upholding the laws of edification just for
little old me...I still have yet to see anyone answer the whole REASONG
for this post: "Is T&N on MTV or what?"
Godspeed,
pARASITE
Phil
: I don't care if they reach their "orignial audience", which is mostly
Yet you say that God holds no condition of person? Hmmm....
: Christians (!), or whoever---if they get to reach 100,000 teeny-bopper
Not true at all. Have you been on alt.music.hardcore or
alt.punk.straightedge lately? Almost eveyone in that scene knows about T&N.
pARASITE
...still waiting for an answer to a simple question...
Korinn E Petersen
line I particularly liked
ba...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (William Constantine Tsimpris) wrote:
>>the music is totally impotent without reaching the audience which needs it the most<<
I feel that christian music would be infinately more potent on MTV. To me, the audience that needs to hear christian music the mo=
st is the crowd that would hear it on MTV. From this they would learn that christians listen to cool music too. Aren't the ppl who=
need to be reached the most the ones who do not know our God?
Of course this would pretty much only be on the condition that they did not end up changing the substance of their music. This na=
turally would make it nearly impossible for this kind of music to be played on MTV, therfore making the whole point moot in the long=
run.
So if the music could be played in its pure form on MTV, then it would be good thing. But this will probably never happen without=
the group having to become more secular and 'selling out'
(I completly agree with you basil)
daniel h so.
: >Hey if mainstream means reaching souls for Christ, then so be it! That is
: >why all these bands are out there right?
: Yea, and like we wouldn't want someone getting saved eh?
DISCLAIMER: this is NOT an attack. thank you....
i understand both sides of this debate. i'm not really going to take
a stance right here, but here's something else to consider. simply
hearing a Christian rawk band isn't going to save someone. i know no
one suggested that it is this simple, but i'm just pointing it out.
i don't think "bad hair day" is going to make anyone run out and
proclaim jesus christ as king. but it could :)
love in Christ:
daniel h so.
--
"with every decision there is a condition,
and in every choice a price to pay"
-strongarm
daniel h so.
since you don't have email, here goes....
i am not trying to tear down anything. perhaps you misinterpreted what i
just posted or maybe thought i posted another letter. i agree that the
only thing that will change anyone's mind about Christ is the Holy Spirit.
i just don't want everyone to get caught up in mxpx and miss the whole
point --- Christ alone. that's all. if anything, i encourage all
believers to "build their house upon the rock."
i believe we need to use EVERY possible weapon in this spiritual battle.
and that battlefield is everywhere, my campus, alternative music...
everywhere and anywhere. i am firmly committed that we must fight for
God's honor at all times.
okie, hope that clears stuff up. :)