RICH MULLINS KILLED SAT. IN KANSAS
Bob Thornton
actually it was in illinois.
September 20th, 1997Rich Mullins died early this morning after a
traffic accident near Peoria Illinois.Rich was in his jeep with Mitch
McVicker in route to Wichita for tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont
Stadium. The jeep lost control and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich
was killed instantly. Mitch is in the special care unit of a Peoria
hospital.Rich's parents have been notified, and memorial service and
funeral plans will be announced at a later time. We'll hope to have
some of that information available Monday morning.He was 41.
On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:02:45 LOCAL, Rock...@Infoave.Net (BWSimpson)
wrote:
>I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
>Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
>devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
>walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
>this happen. Here is the KTLI website with the information.
>www.southwind.net/ktli Please be praying for his family. Goodbye Rich, I
>love you brother.
>God Bless you guys,
>Bill Simpson
>
>"So Hold me Jesus, cause I'm shaking like a leaf. You have been King of my
>glory. Won't You be my Prince of Peace."--Rich Mullins
Ppatterso1
>I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page
that Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas.
>
my glory. Won't You be my Prince of Peace."--Rich Mullins>
Rich's music touched me like no other. I am deeply saddened. The only
thing I can think to say is that Rich is now with our Lord. And, because
he loved Jesus so much I believe he probably thought, "For to me to live is
Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21 He is now experiencing the
fullness of Christ...something all Christians have to look forward to.
"...Well, I'm here to tell you I'll keep rocking 'til I'm sure it's my
time to roll, and when I do...when I leave I want to go out like Elijah,
with a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire; and when I look back on the
stars it'll be like a candlelight in Central Park...and it won't break my
heart to say goodbye." -- Rich Mullins
He will be sorely missed.
Trish
"...everyone's got a dream he can follow or squander...you can laugh if
you want, I'll still say: seize the day...whatever you can...'cause life
slips away like hourglass sand..pray for grace from God's hand; then
nothing will stand in your way." C. Arends
BWSimpson
>I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
>Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
>devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
>walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
>this happen. Here is the KTLI website with the information.
>www.southwind.net/ktli Please be praying for his family. Goodbye Rich, I
>love you brother.
>God Bless you guys,
>Bill Simpson
>"So Hold me Jesus, cause I'm shaking like a leaf. You have been King of my
Jason and Heather
BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
> I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
> Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
> devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
> walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
> this happen.
According to the website you referenced:
"Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
--
"The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
restrictions and without chaperones and obey nobody."
BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
Robert K Leahey
> "Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
> tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
> and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
>
> Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
> jason
> r.m.c resident atheist
Jason, it sounds from your tone that you seem to think that the death of
Rich Mullins, a professing Christian, due to his possible disregard for
the "law of man" somehow proves some implied point of yours. I'm going to
assume that your point is the usual argument made by critics that a
Christian caught doing something he or she "oughtn't" lends further
weight to the "disproving" of Christianity. My reply to you would be that
this argument shows a real lack of understanding of the teachings of the
faith that Rich Mullins believed in and that you seem to want to dispel.
I would remind you that if you wish to battle something with which you
disagree, you should learn more about it to be able to intelligently
refute it. Rich Mullins was a great songwriter and I will miss his work.
Mitch is also a good songwriter and I will pray for his recovery. And
both of these men lived, believed and professed a faith that stated that
their spirituality was worth, literally, "menstrual rags". They broke
rules of God daily and I would not be surprised to find that they broke
rules of men sometimes, as well. But they were depending on the ability
of another to be able to obey ALL the rules ALL the time. If you find
this offensive, that is fine. The truth is very offensive. I have
attempted to write this with gentleness and love but I find that I must
say that I find your remark callous and reprehensible and altogether
consistent with the behavior of one who would call himself "atheist".
Congratulations.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
mat...@usa.net
In article <601ml0$d...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>
> BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
> > I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
> > Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
> > devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in
my
> > walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
> > this happen.
>
> According to the website you referenced:
>
> tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
> and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
>
> Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
> jason
> r.m.c resident atheist
>
compassion here man....at least pretend like you have a soul...
JJM--
> "The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
> like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
> restrictions and without chaperones and obey nobody."
> BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
BWSimpson
I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
Gabe White
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: According to the website you referenced:
: "Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
: tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
: and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
: Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
: Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
: hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
: couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
As co-moderator of this newsgroup, I'm very, very close to tossing your
sorry butt off RMC, Jason.
So get get a freaking life, pervert. And while you're at it maybe a bit of
human decency would do you good, too.
Okay?
Gabe
RMC co-moderator
(sinner)
--
"A man can't be always defending the truth;
there must be a time to feed on it."
-C.S. Lewis
Bob Weigel
In article <601ml0$d...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
>BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
>> I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
>> Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
>> devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
>> walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
>> this happen.
>
>
>"Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
>tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
>and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
>
>Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
>Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
>hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
>couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
.....Does anyone still think I was out of line for the way I spoke
to this fellow? Really Jason....though I know you aren't listening
so what's the point.... perhaps they were....absent minded? Human
even? I forget my lunch for crying out loud! I leave my wallet
lying around. Your self righteousness has driven you insane right
before our very eyes man! -Bob
John Dybala
BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
: I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
: Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
: devastated, and crying all morning.
I just got the news five minutes ago.
My grandmother passed away on August 16, 1995. 24 hours later, I woke
up on the plane home for her funeral and I remember looking outside and
seeing the sun shining in my face. I was a little annoyed because the
sun shining seemed a little bit too cheerful considering that the woman
who was the role model for my own walk had just died a horrible death from
cancer.
Anyway, I had my walkman and the tape inside was the "Winds of Heaven,
Stuff of Earth" album and it happened to be cued up to the final song
on the first side, "Home."
"And now the night is faded and the storm is through
And everything that could be shaken was shaken
And all that remains is all I ever really had."
I was in the room visiting my grandmother when the doctor came in and
pronounced his death sentence. She was 72 years old and had had enough
chemotherapy, so there was nothing else to be done for her. Her comment
to me was, "When the Lord wants me, He'll take me." The doctor gave
her three months. She survived 13 and didn't really go down for the
count until about two days after my father returned from a trip out
to Colorado to visit me. He visited her, showed her pictures of my life
here, and she smiled and said, "So he's really doing okay out there."
Two weeks later, she was gone, and her last words were to ask my
mother how I was doing.
More than two years later, I have that. I have her love for me and the
promise that I will see her again.
"I see the morning moving over the hills
Feel the rush of life here where the darkness broke
And I am in You and You're in me
Here where the winds of Heaven blow."
I went on a retreat in Estes Park, Colorado, a couple of months after
my grandmother's death. I brought that tape with me again, and listened
to it as I watched the sun rise over Long's Peak, as a gentle breeze
swept against my face. So different from the harsh light which greeted
me when I woke up from my nap on that airplane, and yet still very
much the same sense of peace.
"And now the night is faded and the storm is through
And everything you sent to shake me
From my dreams they come to wake me
In the love I find in You
And now the morning comes
And everything that really matters
Become the wings You send to gather me to my Home."
I endured a serious bout of clinical depression following my grandmother's
death. When I came through on the other side, I found myself in a new
church, with a different perspective on life courtesy of a Christian
counselor, and I again found myself listening to this song. And this time,
the song was reaffirming God's love for me just as much as it reaffirmed
my grandmother's love for me and for life.
"I'm going home."
I wrote an essay for a writing class entitled "Going Home" and it was
about that plane flight home. I interspersed the lyrics to the song
with some of the thoughts that ran through my mind during the six-
hour flight from Denver. I got an A on the paper. I meant to write a
letter to Rich Mullins to tell him about it, and about how the song
had been so important to me (as had been "Awesome God" ... along with
"And I Love You" which blasted in my car's tape player the morning I
was baptized). I never got around to it. And so, I must offer it as a
memorial, knowing that Rich himself is Home and I'll be able to tell
him face to face one day.
John
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John J. Dybala, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO
Math in the Bible: "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good."
Survival of the fittest: Darwin is dead, Jesus Christ lives.
Cheef Dan
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
: Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
: hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
: couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
It is possible you are correct.
It is definite that at the moment you are acting like an ass.
Bob Thornton
Why is everyone giving this person the attention they crave? It's not
important right now...
Bob Thornton
both were wearing safety belts.
bob
On 20 Sep 1997 16:36:00 -0700, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and
Heather) wrote:
>BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
>> I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
>> Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
>> devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
>> walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
>> this happen.
>
>According to the website you referenced:
>
>"Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
>tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
>and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
>
>Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
>Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
>hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
>couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
>jason
>r.m.c resident atheist
>
>--
Richard Hood
Robert K Leahey wrote:
>
> > "Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
> > tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
> > and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
> >
> > Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> > Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> > hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> > couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
> >
> > jason
> > r.m.c resident atheist
>
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and
all the people came
unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken
in adultery; and
when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery,
in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be
stoned: but what
sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse
him. But Jesus
stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as
though he heard
them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and
said unto them, He
that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone
at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own
conscience, went out one
by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and
Jesus was left alone, and
the woman standing in the midst.
Jason, it sounds like you are in this crowd of unbelievers that Jesus
tells to "cast the first stone". I'd cast one at you myself, but I'd
prefer that your stony heart becomes melted and you would get saved.
Peace,
Rich
Jeff Holland
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
: > I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
: > Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
: > devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
: > walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
: > this happen.
: According to the website you referenced:
: "Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
: tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
: and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
: Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
: Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
: hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
: couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
Troll.
Jeff
--
Fly, outside of time. See the thin line. Between what you love and hate
And try to realize. That what you despise
Is lying and being lied to.
77's - Indian Winter jhol...@cc.gatech.edu
Alh32269
>"...Well, I'm here to tell you I'll keep rocking 'til I'm sure it's my
>time to roll, and when I do...when I leave I want to go out like Elijah,
>with a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire; and when I look back on the
>stars it'll be like a candlelight in Central Park...and it won't break my
>heart to say goodbye." -- Rich Mullins
can someone tell me where this quote came from??? i'd like to have it ,
please e-mail me if you know
love
amy
(i posted my thoughts about rich in an earlier folder--- i can't believe
he's gone... he will be so missed)
spam on me-@worldnet.att.net Nat and Al Enquirer
From the song "Elijah." Originally on his first album "Rich Mullins."
Then re-recorded for the compilation album "Songs." We really like the
song, but don't think it ever was recorded well. It sure speaks to the
moment, doesn't it? :-(
=========== Elijah (Rich Mullins) ================
Lyrics from Brian Williams Rich Mullins fan page:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~williamb/rm.html
The Jordan is waiting for me to cross through
My heart is aging I can tell
Here's my heart take it where You will
This life has shown me how we're mended and how we're torn
How it's okay to be lonely as long as you're free
Sometimes my ground was stoney
And sometimes covered up with thorns
And only You could make it what it had to be
And now that it's done
Well if they dressed me like a pauper
Or if they dined me like a prince
If they lay me with my fathers
Or if my ashes scatter on the wind
I don't care
But when I leave I want to go out like Elijah
With a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire
And when I look back on the stars
It'll be like a candlelight in Central Park
And it won't break my heart to say goodbye
There's people been friendly, but they'd never be your friends
Sometimes this has bent me to the ground
Now that this is all ending
I want to hear some music once again
'Cause it's the finest thing that I have ever found
But the Jordan is waiting
Though I ain't never seen the other side
Still they say you can't take in the things you have here
So on the road to salvation
I stick out my thumb and He gives me a ride
And His music is already falling on my ears
There's people been talking
They say they're worried about my soul
-> Well, I'm here to tell you I'll keep rocking
-> 'Til I'm sure it's my time to roll
-> And when I do
-> But when I leave I want to go out like Elijah
-> With a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire
-> And when I look back on the stars
-> It'll be like a candlelight in Central Park
-> And it won't break my heart to say goodbye
'Cause when I leave I want to go out like Elijah
With a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire
And when I look back on the stars
It'll be like a candlelight in Central Park
And it won't break my heart to say goodbye
(c) 1983 Meadowgreen Music Company (ASCAP)(All rights administered by Tree
Publishing Co., Inc.)
--
Respectfully,
Nat and Al
(To reply, remove the phrase "-don't spam on me-" from address)
Alh32269 <alh3...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970921071...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Joel Turner
Jason and Heather wrote:
>
> BWSimpson <Rock...@Infoave.Net> wrote:
> > I just heard on my local station and read on the net at the KTLI page that
> > Rich was killed this morning in a car accident in Kansas. I have been so
> > devastated, and crying all morning. His songs have meant so much to me in my
> > walk with our Lord. He was a wonderful man of God. How could smoething like
> > this happen.
>
> According to the website you referenced:
>
> "Rich was in his jeep with Mitch McVicker in route to Wichita for
> tonights concert at Lawrence Dumont Stadium. The jeep lost control
> and flipped, ejecting both men. Rich was killed instantly."
>
> Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
> r.m.c resident atheist
Does anyone else find it ironic that this troll is the same guy who a
couple of days ago was saying that a Christian "hateful" attitude toward
gays was a major factor in his becoming an atheist?
Thought I should ask.
John v
Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
>Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
>hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
>couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
Jason, normally I find your little tirades to be insightful, and
provacative. This one makes me sick.
Did someone spit in your porridge this morning? because this is really
beneath you ...
John v.
_________________________________________________________
One runs the risk of weeping a little, if one lets oneself
be tamed - The Little Prince
_________________________________________________________
Michael D. Halbrook
On 21 Sep 1997 07:14:20 GMT, alh3...@aol.com (Alh32269) wrote:
>>"...Well, I'm here to tell you I'll keep rocking 'til I'm sure it's my
>>time to roll, and when I do...when I leave I want to go out like Elijah,
>>with a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire; and when I look back on the
>>stars it'll be like a candlelight in Central Park...and it won't break my
>>heart to say goodbye." -- Rich Mullins
Live like you'll die tomorrow, die knowing you'll live forever, Live
Right
Love like you'll leave tomorrow, leave knowin it'll last forever.
SeismoSSR
John Dybala <jdy...@holly.ColoState.EDU> wrote:
>I wrote an essay for a writing class entitled "Going Home" and it was
>about that plane flight home. I interspersed the lyrics to the song
>with some of the thoughts that ran through my mind during the six-
>hour flight from Denver. I got an A on the paper. I meant to write a
>letter to Rich Mullins to tell him about it, and about how the song
>had been so important to me (as had been "Awesome God" ... along with
>"And I Love You" which blasted in my car's tape player the morning I
>was baptized). I never got around to it. And so, I must offer it as a
>memorial, knowing that Rich himself is Home and I'll be able to tell
>him face to face one day.
>
>John
>--
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John J. Dybala, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO
>Math in the Bible: "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good."
>Survival of the fittest: Darwin is dead, Jesus Christ lives.
>
>
>
>
>
The full text of John's note is beautiful. I wanted to respond the his
last comments (clipped above).
I want to add a word of exhortation to each of us to let the Christian
muscians who have ministered to us know how God has used them in our lives.
I recognized the same sort of missed opportunity when Mark Heard died. I
read in CCM that he had struggled with the lack of acceptance of his music
and I was crushed. His music meant so much to me (and I still listen to it
regularly) and I had never let him (or even imagined that he needed to)
know how much it had touched my life.
It's so easy for us to assume that the musicians we enjoy must bask each
day in the world's adulation. Maybe some do feel incredibly secure in the
value and impact of their work and don't need our encouragement. That's
ok. But I'd guess that for every one of those there are nine others who
would be blessed in return if you and I would share with them how God has
helped us through their ministry.
I can think of a couple letters I should write.
Most of all I thank God for people like Rich and Mark. We have been truly
blessed.
Steve Robertson
Houston, TX
Ppatterso1
Steve Robertson of Houston, TX, wrote:
>I can think of a couple letters I should write. >
What a great idea. I've written several letters. The net makes it
incredibly easy, too. If they don't have e-mail, find their snail mail
address. It's probably included in the cd liner. They really do
appreciate hearing from fans.
>Most of all I thank God for people like Rich and Mark. We have been
truly blessed. >
Amen and, again, amen.
Mike Grello
Well Joel, Jason isn't a troll, he lives here. Being human, as we all are,
he was right a couple of days ago (though I am nauseated by the hateful
attitude that xainity has toward gays, but I elected to stay and fight.),
and today he is being a toad. but...
Hug a toad for Christ,
Mike Grello <--- the Last Jesus freak
etc...
Joel Turner <joelt...@earthlink.net> wrote in article
<342526...@earthlink.net>...
ReasRod
Why is everyone giving this person the attention they crave? It's not
important right now...
I agree completely with Bob. Let's lay off Jason and concentrate on
supporting each other in our grief!
Bay
"Nat and Al Enquirer" <flfoley-don't spam on m...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> From the song "Elijah." Originally on his first album "Rich Mullins."
> Then re-recorded for the compilation album "Songs." We really like the
> song, but don't think it ever was recorded well. It sure speaks to the
> moment, doesn't it? :-(
>
> =========== Elijah (Rich Mullins) ================
> Lyrics from Brian Williams Rich Mullins fan page:
> http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~williamb/rm.html
>
[excellent lyrics trimmed - go check out the page!]
> Alh32269 <alh3...@aol.com> wrote:
> > >"...Well, I'm here to tell you I'll keep rocking 'til I'm sure it's my
> > >time to roll, and when I do...when I leave I want to go out like Elijah,
> > >with a whirlwind to fuel my chariot of fire; and when I look back on the
> > >stars it'll be like a candlelight in Central Park...and it won't break my
> > >heart to say goodbye." -- Rich Mullins
> >
> > can someone tell me where this quote came from??? i'd like to have it ,
> > please e-mail me if you know
> >
> > love
> > amy
When asked Rich always said "Elijah" was his favorite song. It was written
for his great-grandmother. The story, as best as I remember it..., was that
Rich as a kid was greatly influenced by John Lennon. Later, when Lennon
died he was upset. But he was deeply moved by his grandmother's death at
nearly the same time. He thought it unfair that the whole world knew that a
man named Lennon had died, but that next to no one would ever hear about
his grandmother who had been so dear to him and had even more impacted his
life. So he wrote the song in honor of her and as a touchstone in his
knowledge of his own mortality.
I understand he was disappointed with the re-recording as well.
I am saddened beyond words - so I will drop some more of Rich's here too.
This was my favorite song until "The Color Green" came out.
======== Be with You (Rich Mullins / Justin Peters) ============
Everybody each and all
We're gonna die eventually
And it's no more or less our faults
Than it is our destiny
So now Lord I come to you
Asking only for Your Grace
You know what I've put myself through
All those empty dreams I chased
** And when my body lies in the ruins
Of the lies that nearly ruined me
Will you pick up the pieces
That were pure and true
And breathe Your life into them
And set them free
And when You start this world over
Again from scartch
Will You make me anew
Out of the stuff that lasts
Stuff that's purer than gold is
And clearer than glass could ever be
Can I be with You
Can I be with You
And everybody all and each
From the day that we are born
We have to learn to walk beneath
Those mercies by which we're drawn
Now we wrestle in the dark
With these angels that we can't see
We will move on although with scars
Oh Lord move inside of me
**[repeat]
And when You blast this cosmos
To kingdom come
When those jagged-edged mountains
I love are gone
When the sky is crossed with the tears
Of a thousand falling suns
As they crash into the sea
Can I be with you
Can I be with you
====================================
I love you, Rich.
Bay
Alh32269
>Does anyone else find it ironic that this troll is the same guy who a
>couple of days ago was saying that a Christian "hateful" attitude toward
>gays was a major factor in his becoming an atheist?
>
>Thought I should ask.
well, i thought what Jason said about the lack of seatbelts so soon after
Rich's death was really tactless... but i also think (no, i KNOW) we can
not call ourselves Christians in the same breath we call another human
being a "troll"! there is no way Rich would be happy about that!
(i have a feeling God ain't too thrilled either!)
so jason, i am sorry that someone called you a troll.. that was *really*
wrong--- but i would also like you to let those of us who are mourning the
death of a really special human mourn him in peace, ok???? TACT, people
;-)
Love
Amy
Alh32269
>Subject: Elijah /was Re: RICH MULLINS KILLED SAT...
>From: ar...@concentric.net (Bay)
>Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:44:38 -0600
>Message-id: <argia-ya02308000...@news.concentric.net>
i have been felling the same way about the recent deaths of Princess
Diana and Mother Teresa.. i wsh nore people in the world could know about
the death of this wonderful man!
i was so lost the other day.. when these two women died, we could sort of
mourn along with the people on TV, but there was no big TV story about
Rich.. i know he would not have _wanted_ that, but i find it is so very
hard to grieve alone
oddly enough, the 'net helped me a lot! i had a wonderful time reading all
of the things that he wrote and what was written about him (wow, so so so
many people loved and respected him!) anyway, that helped some
Love
Amy
Mike Van Pelt
In article <19970922064...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Alh32269 <alh3...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Does anyone else find it ironic that this troll ...
>... but i also think (no, i KNOW) we can
>not call ourselves Christians in the same breath we call
>another human being a "troll"!
Actually, on the net, calling someone a "troll" means they're
trolling for flames; making a deliberately inflamatory comment
for no more reason than kids stir up ant hills.
Generally, "trolling for flames" is done by someone who has
no interest in the group, who just drops his little firebombs
and runs off laughing. That's not the case here; Jason
has been a long-time participant in this group.
I'll miss Rich a bunch. And I wish he had shown the good sense
to wear his seat belt. All of us do careless things occasionally.
Sometimes it catches up with us.
--
DO NOT SEND SPAM! In addition to complaing to your ISP, I will send your
scam to the National Fraud Information Center at frau...@psinet.com,
your MLM/pyramid scheme to pyr...@ftc.gov, your stock soliciation to
enfor...@sec.gov, and your chain letter to jcch...@usps.gov and
net-...@nocs.insp.irs.gov - Mike Van Pelt - m...@netcom.com
Jeff Holland
Alh32269 (alh3...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Does anyone else find it ironic that this troll is the same guy who a
: >gays was a major factor in his becoming an atheist?
: >
: >Thought I should ask.
: well, i thought what Jason said about the lack of seatbelts so soon after
: Rich's death was really tactless... but i also think (no, i KNOW) we can
: not call ourselves Christians in the same breath we call another human
: being a "troll"! there is no way Rich would be happy about that!
: (i have a feeling God ain't too thrilled either!)
: so jason, i am sorry that someone called you a troll.. that was *really*
: wrong--- but i would also like you to let those of us who are mourning the
: death of a really special human mourn him in peace, ok???? TACT, people
Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like fish
to a hook. It's dispicable.
Scott Fincher
On 20 Sep 1997, Jason and Heather wrote:
> Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
An interesting assumption for someone who likes to rely on known fact.
> Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
You know, Jason, you're a valuable member of the newsgroup, but on the
behalf of just about everyone I'd like to extend a big "screw you". I
wasn't a fan of Rich Mullins' music myself, but from what I know of
him, he was a genuine, sincere individual. Show some decency.
****************************************
Scott Fincher Sfin...@tamu.edu
--- ---
"Sometimes it can't be done,
but then - there is wisdom." - King's X
Jason and Heather
Jeff Holland <jhol...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
> Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
> He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like
> fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
for the law. For this I have been royally toasted. But what if it
had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
been then? How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
in yesterday morning?
Yeah.
Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
Yeah.
Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
hook and miss the clue entirely.
Gabe White
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
: that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
Because someone we respected and cared about died. Period.
: I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
: Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
: for the law.
Yeah. On the Christian music newsgroup. In a rather sarcastic tone of
voice.
: For this I have been royally toasted. But what if it
: had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
: been then?
My response would be: I hope he was right with God before he died. I
won't miss him, though. I didn't know the man and I didn't respect him.
: How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
: him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
: lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
: in yesterday morning?
I don't know. But what's your point?
: Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
: hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
: mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
: own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
If he was the kind of man who would do that kind of things I don't think
so many people would respect him so much.
: Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks.
Right. You are just oh-so-subtle, you bad little boy, you.
: Just
: once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
: them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
: hook and miss the clue entirely.
Yeah. We could all learn from Jason. And be sweet cynical stupid
heartless cold little atheists. Huh?
Kelly W. Boyd
Please don't let the discussion over this tragedy turn into a personal
argument. It doesn't really matter if they were wearing seat belts or not
at this point. I think we all seem to forget at times that God is
sovereign and always in control. And the best part out of all of this is
that Rich now knows what it is truly like to be in the presence of
Christ!!
Cheef Dan wrote:
> Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
>
> : Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> : Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> : hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> : couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
Jason and Heather
Scott Fincher <SWF...@acs.tamu.edu> wrote:
> On 20 Sep 1997, Jason and Heather wrote:
> >
> > Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
>
> fact.
The known fact is that people who wear their safety belts don't get
"ejected" from their vehicles in an accident. Since Rich did, it's a
simple matter of applying modus tollens.
From the reports, it looks like logic didn't let me down.
> > Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except
> > New hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died
> > because he couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
> You know, Jason, you're a valuable member of the newsgroup, but on
> the behalf of just about everyone I'd like to extend a big "screw
> you".
Wow. I don't think I could have gotten this kind of response if I'd
slandered Rich outright. But one little, obvious statement of fact,
and...
> I wasn't a fan of Rich Mullins' music myself, but from what I
> know of him, he was a genuine, sincere individual. Show some
> decency.
He was a genuine, sincere, and careless individual. Considering
the fact that the last probably cut 20-30 years off his life, halted
his mission, traumatized an innocent stranger, and left his friends,
family and fans bereft, I don't think glossing over it really
qualifies as "decent".
Cheef Dan
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
: once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
: them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
: hook and miss the clue entirely.
Nice try, Jason.
As was said before, you've generally been a valuable part of the
discussion here. (Although your track record has been a little weak
lately.)
Go back and read my response again.
If the not-so-subtl clues there weren't good enough, here it is in the
expanded form...
1) You had a good point to make
2) You lost your chance to be heard by being a jerk
You could have waited awhile, or stated it differently.
In fact, there are those who used this time to remind everybody to wear
their seatbelts... and they were not chastised. I myself was planning to
bring up a Keith Green comparison, saying it was so sad that two folks
who impacted people by challenging them to live what they believed ending
up dying in what should likely have been preventable accidents.
But, please, do what I also sometimes have a hard time doing...
Care a little bit more about the other person's feelings and a little bit
less about having to make your point.
Michael
First of all, If you know the whole story, it wasn't flying from the jeep that killed
him...it was the trucker (quite by accident, of course).
Secondly...well...He who is without sin...
> : Ejected, eh? Sounds like someone wasn't wearing his seatbelt.
> : Since there are seatbelt laws on the books in every state except New
> : hampshire, it looks like this "wonderful man of God" died because he
> : couldn't be bothered to follow the law of man.
>
Robert K Leahey
In article <60703g$p...@nntp02.primenet.com>,> ...I mean, think about this, kids. ...
...Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
> once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
> them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
> hook and miss the clue entirely.
>
> r.m.c resident atheist
>
> --
Jason, stop congratulating yourself, your tutelage is neither impressive
nor requested. It's remarkably easy to make an inflammatory remark and
then backpedal to the tune of, "Didn't you get it? I was just trying to
say..." what's a little more difficult is to step back from your anger
and think about what you're saying. First, let's take your argument in
reverse, suppose it was not a backward-thinking, conservative,
hypocritical Christian who died in a tragic accident, but rather, a
highly admired, nay, worshipped Seattle area
poet-and-genius-for-our-generation who, instead of being a good,
intelligent role model and blowing his own head off in his bathroom,
meets Rich's fate on that highway. What do you think would be the
comparison in the headlines, hmmm? "Tragedy" vs. your commendable take,
"...died because he couldn't be bothered..." Don't kid yourself, this is
not a one way street. Secondly, I don't understand why you're bothering
to defend yourself. Returning to my comment from my original posting,
you're an avowed atheist, might- makes-right right? There is no
conscience. And, I might add, why are you bothering to try and educate
poor little us? Some outdated need to help better your inferiors? Please,
you're hurting your kid's chances for evolution! Save your lessons for
the appropriate moment. And if you wish to partake in an intelligent
discussion, please take the time to study your subject matter. Contrary
to public myth, Christianity is an intelligent faith with sound reasons
for believing its truths. And by the way, don't condescend to me, I'm not
your kid.
Robert K Leahey
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Kay316
Jason writes:
(stuff deleted)
>Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
>once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
>them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
>hook and miss the clue entirely.
Jason,
Don't get me wrong. I appreciate some things you say. You have an
interesting perspective. But you're not our Great Enlightener. We are all
not in need of your sarcastic clues.
Peace,
Laura
Chuck Pearson
in case the gist of the post got missed in another thread, let me say it
again.
somebody's died.
people are going to act really screwy after somebody's died.
people WILL take offense to things that they might otherwise let past
after somebody's died.
that's what i see going on here, and as callous as everybody might think
jason's statements have been, i think right now we would all be best
served by just letting them go until another time. it just plain ain't
worth it if this death prompts r.m.c to show off its humanity in all of
ugliness.
maybe it's just chuck's standard total reluctance to get into any kind of
confrontation, but there's a time and a place for everything - and as far
as confrontation is concerned, it ain't here and it ain't now.
chuck
--
...and it won't break my heart to say goodbye.
[thanx to rich mullins. for everything.]
cpea...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
Matthew W. Damick
: >
: > Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
: > He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like
: > fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
: that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
Perhaps b/c it was understood that people were sensitive about this and
don't really appreciate the "academics" you seem to need to point out about
Rich's death. My guess is that they see it as disrespectful when another
needs to find a bad light to put a sad event into.
: I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
: Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
: for the law. For this I have been royally toasted. But what if it
: had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
: been then? How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
: him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
: lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
: in yesterday morning?
r.m.c. folks: Consider: Jason -does not- know Rich Mullins (except,
perhaps by his music, which I don't think Jason listens to). Therefore,
knowing what he's posted before, recognize his post for the conjecture it
is. I've had the privilege of conversing w/ Jason on other NGs (namely
alt.fan.the-bob) and have come to see him (like others on those NGs) as
the sophist he is. Jason argues to argue, to be right, to stir
up/inflame debate. He usually works from a conjecture like here or his
translation of someone's words rather than those words or reality. He's
a capable debater and often draws people in so he can continue his
arguing. IMO, he's out to amke himself feel good by reveling in his
ability to rile up posters and then to try to tear them down by proving
his point or disproving someone else's point. Despite his claims to the
contrary, he doesn't post for others edification or education, but so he
can be right and demonstrate that to others.
: Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
: hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
: mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
: own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
The above is all conjecture, all "what if"s. -Not- fact. See the
strategy?
: Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
: once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
: them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
: hook and miss the clue entirely.
Jason proposes a hidden lesson. He doesn't bother to state it outright
(it's my experience that to do so would show him not to have all the
facts, like it is w/ Rich Mullins' death), I think, b/c he wouldn't have
much to argue. He needs a hypothetical situation or a conjecture to run
with, to argue from. Don't be drawn in. Recognize when he works from
facts and when he works from conjecture.
I know I'm invinting a follow-up from him, but it won't be the first time
for me and I know what his most likely response will be.
--
=== Matt "The ThighMaster" Damick ===========1610== NC State
=== mwda...@unity.ncsu.edu ======================= Chemical
=== Theoretical Perfect World Engineering, Ltd. === Engineering
Will McDonald
In <60703g$p...@nntp02.primenet.com> stei...@primenet.com (Jason and
Heather) writes:
>
>Jeff Holland <jhol...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
>> He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like
>> fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
>
>Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
>that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
>
>Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
>for the law. For this I have been royally toasted.
Nope. It was for your insensitivity.
>But what if it
>had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
>been then?
Probably many of us would have been sad as well. Of course, there are
not as many fans of Marilyn Manson on r.m.c. as Rich Mullins, so the
emotional wound would not be as widespread...
>How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
>him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
>lifestyles?
I seriously doubt their would have been many posts that would cite "not
using a seltbelt" as an example of a dissolute lifestyle.
>Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
>in yesterday morning?
It all depends on the relevance.
>
>Yeah.
>
>Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
>hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
>mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
>own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
Again, a tragedy. Of course, most people can relate to being forgetful
or careless about a seltbelt. It is not on the same level as shooting
up heroin.
>
>Yeah.
>
>Ok, I'm trolling.
Glad you admit it. Seems like you are looking for "persecution" to
justify your rejection of Christendom. Jason, I really like you (as
much as one can like a person on the Internet), but you've really
surprised me with your uncompassionate attitude. I thought you were
above that sort of thing.
>But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
>once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
>them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
>hook and miss the clue entirely.
The clue? That Mullins was fallible? That tragic things happen? That
all people (not just Christians) show an astounding lack of compassion
for others?
Will
--
"In Lubbock [Texas] we grew up with two main things. God loves you
and he's gonna send you to hell, and that sex is bad and dirty
and nasty and awful and you should save it for the one you love.
You wonder why we're all crazy." -- Butch Hancock
Jason and Heather
Robert K Leahey <lea...@homemail.com> wrote:
>
> Jason, stop congratulating yourself, your tutelage is neither
> impressive nor requested. It's remarkably easy to make an
> inflammatory remark and then backpedal to the tune of, "Didn't you
> get it? I was just trying to say..."
What I was trying to say was inflammatory.
> what's a little more difficult is to step back from your anger
> and think about what you're saying.
I'm saying that "Faith without works is dead." God helps those who
help themselves, he fights on the side with the most artillery, and
he saves those who wear their seatbelts.
Believe in God all you want, but you might as well live like he
doesn't exist, because if he won't reach down to save a guy like
Rich from his own carelessness, he's not going to save you.
> First, let's take your argument in reverse, suppose it was not a
> backward-thinking, conservative, hypocritical Christian who died in
> a tragic accident, but rather, a highly admired, nay, worshipped
> Seattle area poet-and-genius-for-our-generation who, instead of
> being a good, intelligent role model and blowing his own head off
> in his bathroom, meets Rich's fate on that highway. What do you
> think would be the comparison in the headlines, hmmm?
I don't have to guess. I remember Kurt Cobain well. I remember Bonn
Scott too, for that matter.
> "Tragedy" vs. your commendable take, "...died because he couldn't
> be bothered..."
While the straight news labeled it a tragedy, the opinion pages most
certainly did say "died because he couldn't be bothered", or worse.
I have a really funny political cartoon of "Kurt Cobain's brain",
in the first pane marinating in drugs, and in the second, splattered
on the wall.
And you know what? Much as I liked Kurt Cobain, it was right on
target. (Pardon the unintentional pun.)
I've never pretended to be a newsman, these are my opinions.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
--
Jason and Heather
Cheef Dan <chee...@netaxs.com> wrote:
>
> Go back and read my response again.
> If the not-so-subtl clues there weren't good enough, here it is in the
> expanded form...
>
> 1) You had a good point to make
> 2) You lost your chance to be heard by being a jerk
If I lost my chance to be heard, then why am I currently carrying on
half a dozen email conversations as a result of this?
They may not like what they hear, but they are hearing it.
> You could have waited awhile, or stated it differently.
>
> In fact, there are those who used this time to remind everybody to
> wear their seatbelts... and they were not chastised. I myself was
> planning to bring up a Keith Green comparison, saying it was so sad
> that two folks who impacted people by challenging them to live what
> they believed ending up dying in what should likely have been
> preventable accidents.
But it's worse than that. That's not a pleasant thing to say, but
as the resident atheist, nobody expects me to be pleasant anyway.
People hold Keith Green and Rich Mullins both up as examples of faith.
Let's be consistent in that, shall we? For I'm sure both of them
prayed for protection before they left on their fatal trips, and I'm
certain they both cried out to Jesus in the moments before they died.
Too much faith can get you killed. Blunt, yeah. But also ironic.
Those who live as though God doesn't exist live longest.
> But, please, do what I also sometimes have a hard time doing...
> Care a little bit more about the other person's feelings and a
> little bit less about having to make your point.
See, I'm tired of tickling people's ears. You can get anyone to
believe anything if you sugar-coat it enough. But that's manipulative
isn't it? I don't just want people to come to agreement with me,
I want them to come kicking and screaming and fighting it all the
way. Because that means they've tried every alternative, and they
agree NOT because I made it sound good, but because they were
compelled by the truth.
Scott Fincher
On 22 Sep 1997, Jason and Heather wrote:
> The known fact is that people who wear their safety belts don't get
> "ejected" from their vehicles in an accident. Since Rich did, it's a
> simple matter of applying modus tollens.
^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
Are you trying to alert the Latin Police to your presence? We're on to
you now...
> From the reports, it looks like logic didn't let me down.
Okay, you were right. And I knew you probably were. It just seemed ironic
to me that you were quick to jump in and assume something, given your
usual position on known fact.
> > You know, Jason, you're a valuable member of the newsgroup, but on
> > the behalf of just about everyone I'd like to extend a big "screw
> > you".
>
> Wow. I don't think I could have gotten this kind of response if I'd
> slandered Rich outright. But one little, obvious statement of fact,
> and...
It wasn't the statement of fact that pissed people off, and you know it.
It was the tone of your post, and the fact that you used another man's
death to score points for your personal worldview. I respect your
opinions - I really do - but that's just pretty damn low.
> He was a genuine, sincere, and careless individual. Considering
> the fact that the last probably cut 20-30 years off his life, halted
> his mission, traumatized an innocent stranger, and left his friends,
> family and fans bereft, I don't think glossing over it really
> qualifies as "decent".
Sigh. It's an issue of respect for a fellow person, and the people who
cared about him. In my mind, at least, "glossing it over" doesn't have a
whole hell of a lot to do with anything.
Mike Grello
If your point has anything to do with the supposition that one can deny
God's existance and still be compassionate, moral and caring...
you failed. This is a shame, because that is a valid proposition. Maybe
you've been hanging out with the xians too long, Jason; you are beginning
to sound like them.
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<60703g$p...@nntp02.primenet.com>...
> Jeff Holland <jhol...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
> > He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like
> > fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
>
> Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
> that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
>
> I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
> Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
> for the law. For this I have been royally toasted. But what if it
> had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
> been then? How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
> him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
> lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
> in yesterday morning?
>
There are assholes everywhere. They seem to collect at churches, but this
is to be expected; a church is (ideally) where you wind up when you realize
you need help. I wonder if people would be as arrogant and proud of
belonging to the Betty Ford Clinic.
> Yeah.
>
> Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
> hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
> mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
> own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
>
Proved trhat xians are sinners that need saving? Gee, what a novel idea!
> Yeah.
>
> Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
> once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
> them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
> hook and miss the clue entirely.
>
Jesus did the same thing, but somehow people didn't feel like they
swallowed bat-vomit afterward.
Jason and Heather
> > >
> > > Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
> > > He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite
> > > like fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
> >
> > Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
> > that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
>
> and don't really appreciate the "academics" you seem to need to
> point out about Rich's death. My guess is that they see it as
> disrespectful when another needs to find a bad light to put a sad
> event into.
This is not an academic statement. It's a stark, cold fact. A fact
that just happens to be central to this whole affair. An unpleasant
fact, to be sure. But I didn't have to go looking for it, it's there.
e : I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
> : Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and
> : disregard for the law. For this I have been royally toasted. But
> : what if it had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the
> : response would have been then? How many posts do you think we
> : would have seen here holding him up as an example of what happens
> : to those who lead dissolute lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_
> : would he have been mentioned in yesterday morning?
>
> r.m.c. folks: Consider: Jason -does not- know Rich Mullins
> (except, perhaps by his music, which I don't think Jason listens
> to).
I have in the past. How could any Christian avoid it? I've also
watched him several times on Christian television. While I don't know
him personally, I'm at least as familiar with him and his work as
a casual admirer would be.
> Therefore, knowing what he's posted before, recognize his post for
> the conjecture it is. I've had the privilege of conversing w/ Jason
> on other NGs (namely alt.fan.the-bob) and have come to see him
> (like others on those NGs) as the sophist he is. Jason argues to
> argue, to be right, to stir up/inflame debate.
Yup!
> He usually works from a conjecture like here or his translation of
> someone's words rather than those words or reality.
I resent that. What got me into trouble in this case is that I _did_
work from reality. People are currently excoriating me because I made
a statement about the reality that they feel it'd be better to ignore!
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
> He's a capable debater and often draws people in so he can continue
> his arguing. IMO, he's out to amke himself feel good by reveling
> in his ability to rile up posters and then to try to tear them down
> by proving his point or disproving someone else's point. Despite
> his claims to the contrary, he doesn't post for others edification
> or education, but so he can be right and demonstrate that to others.
I admit it, it's fun to be right. But it's also a lot of fun to
watch the light dawn in other people's eyes. To know you were able
to make them think about something they might not have thought about
otherwise.
I know, for instance, that you're never, _ever_ going to forget the
education I gave you over in your brother's newsgroup. There's a whole
class of test questions you're never going to miss, because I was
pedantic enough to beat the point into your head with a brick, while
your professors, whom you payed good money, did not. What's more, I
was honest with you when your family and your church fed you lies.
You can dislike me all you want, but you're never going to change
that, and every time I think about it, it gives me warm fuzzies right
down to my toes. I'm responsible for the death of a little bit of
ignorance, and it makes me feel gooooooood.
> : Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
> : hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
> : mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
> : own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
>
> The above is all conjecture, all "what if"s. -Not- fact. See the
> strategy?
I use conjecture because I believe people have imaginations. If you
don't, then all we have to do is start naming names. Jimi Hendrix.
Bonn Scott. Kurt Cobain.
> : Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
> : once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
> : them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
> : hook and miss the clue entirely.
>
> Jason proposes a hidden lesson. He doesn't bother to state it outright
> (it's my experience that to do so would show him not to have all the
> facts, like it is w/ Rich Mullins' death),
Pardon me? Which facts am I missing?
> I think, b/c he wouldn't have much to argue. He needs a
> hypothetical situation or a conjecture to run with, to argue from.
> Don't be drawn in. Recognize when he works from facts and when he
> works from conjecture.
A Christian demanding facts. Warms the cockles of me heart, it does.
See? You're learning. You don't like it. It's not pleasant. But you're
learning. So am I, by the way. But for me, it's fun. I get closer to
the truth, you get closer to the truth, and the rest of it just
doesn't matter.
Mark Silva
Scott Fincher wrote:
>
> It wasn't the statement of fact that pissed people off, and you know it.
> death to score points for your personal worldview.
And of course, we Christians have *never* done this...
-- MWS
Jason and Heather
>
> That all people (not just Christians) show an astounding lack of
> compassion for others?
*Shakes head*
God helps those who help themselves. A couple of months ago someone
posted a joke here, about a preacher who got caught in a flood. First
the cops come to his house, asking him to evacuate. He says "No,
God will save me." The water rises. Out of his second story window
he sees a boat, and the people in it offer to give him a ride. "No,
God will save me." The water rises still more, and finally he's on the
roof, and a helicopter lowers a ladder. "No, God will save me." The
water keeps rising, and soon he's swept away and drowned. Angrily,
he askes God "Why didn't you save me?" and God replies "What? A police
car, a boat, and a helicopter weren't enough?"
Now, that's a joke. It has a point, but because it's a joke, it's easy
to ignore. If we're ever in a flood, we might remember it, but will we
apply the lesson to our daily lives? No. But what happens if we stick
Rich Mullins in that joke? And God says, "What, a seatbelt wasn't
enough for you?"
*Gasp*
Why, that's fucking tasteless! You won't forget it though, will you?
And you may get the point, that there is such a thing as too much
faith. I've given up all hope that anyone will get the second point,
the irony of the fact that for God's followers to survive, they
essentially have to act as though he didn't exist, and can't be
trusted to intervene on their behalf.
Michael
Jason,
The problem is not so much that you spoke the truth of Rich not wearing a seat
belt, it's how you went about doing it. You weren't mentioning the already
obvious facts to inform anybody, or even to start a logical conversation. You
were obviously just looking to gain ground in your world view and to start a
flame war.
Please, Jason, let us grieve the loss and celebrate the homecoming of a great
20th century apostle.
Your Brother In Christ,
Michael Smith
"I believe what I believe. It's what makes me what I am. I did not make it,
no it is making me. It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any
man." -Rich Mullins
Jason and Heather
Mike Grello <mgr...@scsn.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks.
> > Just once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at
> > least take them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage
> > to swallow the hook and miss the clue entirely.
>
> swallowed bat-vomit afterward.
No, they just wanted to kill him.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
PS. No, I'm not comparing myself to Christ. I don't expect people
to worship me after I piss them off.
John v
Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>Too much faith can get you killed. Blunt, yeah. But also ironic.
>Those who live as though God doesn't exist live longest.
Then explain those studies that crop up every year or so that show that
those with any sort of faith live longer than those with none?
>See, I'm tired of tickling people's ears. You can get anyone to
>believe anything if you sugar-coat it enough.
Appealing to the negative/cynical/bitter side of certain ppl while not
sugar-coating, belongs in the same family of tactics.
>But that's manipulative
>isn't it?
No more so than you, see above.
>I don't just want people to come to agreement with me,
>I want them to come kicking and screaming and fighting it all the
>way. Because that means they've tried every alternative, and they
>agree NOT because I made it sound good, but because they were
>compelled by the truth.
either that or got so overwhelmed that their senses overloaded and they
caved ... Kind of conversion due to carefully manipulated emotional low ...
John v.
--
As part of the new Dignity Enhancement program, Picard is forced to
allow Troi to wear uniforms that cover her breasts.
Ed Rock
<amy_grant> What about the love? </amy_grant>
Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu/~ecrab Ed Crabtree
"I think I could write Christian hits, but I don't think I could face the
thought of standing before God and answering to that." --Mark Robertson
Stephen M. Brooks
Chuck Pearson wrote:
>
> in case the gist of the post got missed in another thread, let me say it
> again.
>
> somebody's died.
> people are going to act really screwy after somebody's died.
> people WILL take offense to things that they might otherwise let past
> after somebody's died.
>
> that's what i see going on here, and as callous as everybody might think
> jason's statements have been, i think right now we would all be best
> served by just letting them go until another time. it just plain ain't
> worth it if this death prompts r.m.c to show off its humanity in all of
> ugliness.
>
> maybe it's just chuck's standard total reluctance to get into any kind of
> confrontation, but there's a time and a place for everything - and as far
> as confrontation is concerned, it ain't here and it ain't now.
Thank you chuck, my sentiments exactly. Not too long ago, we went thru
a tragic untimely death in our family, & I saw a lot of family members
act screwy. In fact, it's been over 2 years now and some of them STILL
act screwy about it. Nevertheless, like chuck said, now ain't the time,
and, while I think later might be better, even then it might be best to
just let those offending comments go.
We now return you to my normal lurking mode...
--
Stephen M. Brooks ........ Alcatel Network Systems ........ Raleigh, NC
Jeff Holland
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: Jeff Holland <jhol...@cc.gatech.edu> wrote:
: >
: > Actually, the term means "to troll someone." Like fishing.
: > He says something that causes a knee-jerk reaction and we bite like
: > fish to a hook. It's dispicable.
: Nah, it's not despicable. If there's anything sad about it, it's
: that nobody even bothered to ask _why_ the knee jerked.
Who cares why the knee jerked? You are still playing on people's
emotions.
: I mean, think about this, kids. What did I do? I pointed out that
: Rich Mullins died as a result of his own carelessness and disregard
: for the law. For this I have been royally toasted. But what if it
: had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
: been then? How many posts do you think we would have seen here holding
: him up as an example of what happens to those who lead dissolute
: lifestyles? Hell, how many _sermons_ would he have been mentioned
: in yesterday morning?
So, Rich Mullins died by being careless. That doesn't make it
any less of a tragedy. In fact, I find myself greiving even more that his
death was preventable. People die from carelessness, but it's still an
awful thing.
: Or what if it had been Rich, but the sin which lead to his demise
: hadn't been one which normally draws a $50 ticket? What if he had
: mismeasured a dose of heroin? Or drank too much and drowned in his
: own vomit? Or caught AIDS the old fashioned way?
What does this have to do with your callousness, nay, smug attitude
that Rich died disobeying the laws of man? It happens. Rich's life still
reflected the face of God DESPITE his sins. Sorry we're not all perfect
enough for you.
: Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks. Just
: once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at least take
: them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage to swallow the
: hook and miss the clue entirely.
How noble of you.
Jeff
NP: Jars of Clay, _Much Afraid_
John v
>> On 20 Sep 1997, Jason and Heather wrote:
>> An interesting assumption for someone who likes to rely on known
>> fact.
>"ejected" from their vehicles in an accident.
Correction don't usually ...
On rare occaision those riding in open top vehicles do get ejected even
though wearing seatbelts ...
> Since Rich did, it's a
>simple matter of applying modus tollens.
only when working with assumptions
>From the reports, it looks like logic didn't let me down.
This time ...
>Wow. I don't think I could have gotten this kind of response if I'd
>slandered Rich outright. But one little, obvious statement of fact,
>and...
One unnecessary obvious statement of fact.
>He was a genuine, sincere, and careless individual. Considering
>the fact that the last probably cut 20-30 years off his life, halted
>his mission, traumatized an innocent stranger, and left his friends,
>family and fans bereft, I don't think glossing over it really
>qualifies as "decent".
Since when is not using someones death for the purposes of one's
intellectual glorification 'glossing over it'?
Bay
(John v) wrote:
> (Jason and Heather) wrote:
> >The known fact is that people who wear their safety belts don't get
> >"ejected" from their vehicles in an accident.
>
> Correction don't usually ...
> On rare occaision those riding in open top vehicles do get ejected even
> though wearing seatbelts ...
Yes, I've heard of this with jeeps. Especialy if they roll. But I wouldn't
be surprised either way.
I agree that it was really careless. I am a bit ashamed and angry at them
for it. But these are two guys I greatly admire, not just in spite of their
mistakes but because of them, too. We all have our faults, and one of
Rich's was compulsive forgetfulness. It is no excuse, but it may help to
understand. Rich forgot everything all of the time - shoes, keys, wallet,
passports, and probably seatbelts, too. He would forget his shirt if he
didn't already have his arms conveniently stuffed into the sleeves.
And if Rich was driving, then Mitch was probably strumming a guitar or
mandolin. Or maybe he was asleep. Either is easier with the seatbelt off.
Very stupid - but very human. They didn't do it out of arrogance. I do
stuff I'm ashamed of, too. Fortunately it hasn't ever killed me.
My father always forgets his seatbelt.
I'm going to have to talk to him about that.
-Bay
Jason and Heather
John v <hoo...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
> Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
> >
> > Those who live as though God doesn't exist live longest.
>
> Then explain those studies that crop up every year or so that show
> that those with any sort of faith live longer than those with none?
Care to cite? I'm well past the point where a vague reference to
"some study" carries much weight. Besides any study which showed
that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal type
of deity, or more likely still, a placebo effect.
> > See, I'm tired of tickling people's ears. You can get anyone to
> > believe anything if you sugar-coat it enough.
>
> Appealing to the negative/cynical/bitter side of certain ppl while
> not sugar-coating, belongs in the same family of tactics.
It would if I were talking to them.
> > I don't just want people to come to agreement with me, I want
> > them to come kicking and screaming and fighting it all the way.
> > Because that means they've tried every alternative, and they
> > agree NOT because I made it sound good, but because they were
> > compelled by the truth.
>
> either that or got so overwhelmed that their senses overloaded and
> they caved ...
I doubt it. We're as subject to flight or fight as any other animal.
Caving in is not part of our nature. Have you seen anyone caving on
this particular thread? No. Plenty of the other two though.
Oddly enough, just before I read your post, I was emailed a newspaper
article about a study done by a psychologist by the name of Bob
Sinclair, at the University of Alberta.
According to almost a decade of research, sad people listen more
closely to arguments, being swayed if the argument is strong or
rejecting it if it's weak.
Meanwhile, happy people don't seem to pay attention and are
persuaded by both types of evidence.
"When you are in a happy mood, you generally don't make as good
decisions as when you are in a sad mood," he says.
Unfortunately, this being a newspaper article, they didn't give a
whole lot more information. I'm trying to track the rest of it down
on the web now.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
Jerry B. Ray
In article <6095j8$k...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
>And you may get the point, that there is such a thing as too much
>faith.
See, the thing is, I highly doubt that Rich forgetting to wear a
seatbelt is a matter of "too much faith," but rather a matter of
simple carelessness or poor judgement. I _never_ forget to wear
my seatbelt, but I'm not thinking "I gotta do this because God
probably won't bother to rescue me if I plow into an oncoming
dump truck" as I put it on. Conversely, when I do reckless things
that could lead to injury, I'm not thinking "I can't possibly
be hurt-God will take care of me!" Actions have consequences
and all that.
JRjr
--
%%%%% vap...@prism.gatech.edu %%%%%%%% Jerry B. Ray, Jr. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
"I am so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month.
I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis."
-- Zaphod Beeblebrox
Beverley R. White
*shiver*
bev, you really should know better than to try to catch up on rmc after
something like this.
--
bev. make it work.
Brett J. Kopetsky
Amen.
--
Brett J. Kopetsky | St. Thomas Aquinas Center
kope...@cs.purdue.edu | Executive Council
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/kopetsbj | Secretary/Treasurer
Andrew Joll
Alh32269 <alh3...@aol.com> wrote in article
<01bcc7bb$259a1d00$d434...@eyinv.southnet.co.nz>...
> i have been felling the same way about the recent deaths of Princess
> Diana and Mother Teresa.. i wsh nore people in the world could know about
> the death of this wonderful man!
My wife knows the feeling - her father died on September 2. We were in the
waiting room outside intensive care when we heard about Diana!
Rich was a brilliant artist and a gifted musician and his influence in the
Christian music industry will be missed. I'm dedicating my Christian music
show to him this week (details posted later).
Andrew
aj...@fms-ca.co.nz / arj...@clear.net.nz
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/arjoll
Will McDonald
In <6095j8$k...@nntp02.primenet.com> stei...@primenet.com (Jason and
Heather) writes:
>
>Will McDonald <wmc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) writes:
>> >
>>
>> That all people (not just Christians) show an astounding lack of
>> compassion for others?
>
>*Shakes head*
>
>God helps those who help themselves. A couple of months ago someone
>posted a joke here, about a preacher who got caught in a flood. First
>the cops come to his house, asking him to evacuate. He says "No,
>God will save me." The water rises. Out of his second story window
>he sees a boat, and the people in it offer to give him a ride. "No,
>God will save me." The water rises still more, and finally he's on the
>roof, and a helicopter lowers a ladder. "No, God will save me." The
>water keeps rising, and soon he's swept away and drowned. Angrily,
>he askes God "Why didn't you save me?" and God replies "What? A police
>car, a boat, and a helicopter weren't enough?"
>
>Now, that's a joke. It has a point, but because it's a joke, it's easy
>to ignore. If we're ever in a flood, we might remember it, but will we
>apply the lesson to our daily lives? No.
Says who? You've completely missed/ignored the point.
>But what happens if we stick
>Rich Mullins in that joke? And God says, "What, a seatbelt wasn't
>enough for you?"
>
>*Gasp*
>
>Why, that's fucking tasteless! You won't forget it though, will you?
That you are tasteless? It will be difficult.
>
>And you may get the point, that there is such a thing as too much
>faith.
You're not describing faith -- you're describing presumption. Put
your straw man away.
>I've given up all hope that anyone will get the second point,
>the irony of the fact that for God's followers to survive, they
>essentially have to act as though he didn't exist, and can't be
>trusted to intervene on their behalf.
See the comment above.
We can debate at another time. You need to deal with your lack of
compassion.
I hope you live to a ripe old age. I hope you have great blessings
in your life. But if for some reason you were to die tragically,
the result of an oversight or a false sense of security (for
instance, you drive home from a friend's house when you haven't had
enough sleep and end up killing yourself), I would feel a great
sense of loss. Even if I didn't know you very well I would
sympathize with your family and friends. The very last thing I
would do is to proudly announce to them that you died because you
were just too pigheaded to use some common sense.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the real issue here. You can try to
justify your actions all you like, but your sense of timing and
compassion were rotten and you shouldn't be surprised that you have
faced something of a backlash.
You are hurting your own cause by your lack of simple human
compassion.
Walter Semerenko
On 23 Sep 1997 12:34:00 -0700 stei...@primenet.com (Jason and
Heather) wrote:
>Now, that's a joke. It has a point, but because it's a joke, it's easy
>to ignore. If we're ever in a flood, we might remember it, but will we
>apply the lesson to our daily lives? No. But what happens if we stick
>Rich Mullins in that joke? And God says, "What, a seatbelt wasn't
>enough for you?"
>*Gasp*
>Why, that's fucking tasteless! You won't forget it though, will you?
You just reminded me of a passage of scripture regarding the pharisees
and Jesus (Matthew 22:15-22 RSV)
15 Then the Pharisees went and took counsel how to entangle him in his
talk.
16 And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Hero'di-ans,
saying, "Teacher, we know that you are true, and teach the way of God
truthfully, and care for no man; for you do not regard the position of
men.
17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar,
or not?"
18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why put me to the test,
you hypocrites?
19 Show me the money for the tax." And they brought him a coin.
20 And Jesus said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?"
21They said, "Caesar's." Then he said to them, "Render therefore to
Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are
God's."
22 When they heard it, they marveled; and they left him and went away.
I haven't caught whether or not Rich was wearing a seatbelt or not,
but if he wasn't then he was not rendering unto Caesar the things that
are Caesar's [the government in this case; regarding the seatbelt
laws].
I just hope he's gone 'to a better place', rather than to Hell for a
technicality.
Walter.
Bryce Utting
>: had been Marilyn Manson? What do you think the response would have
>: been then?
>
>won't miss him, though. I didn't know the man and I didn't respect him.
I would.
'Course, I've been nothing but offended but what I've seen from him.
And if I'm hoping for anything, it's that he does turn around, and get
dragged kicking and screaming (like Jason says) to the cross by knowing
there's no alternative. Don't we -need- challenge? (Well, challenge
that's not just manipulation in another guise, which imho is why some
trolls are just trolls.) Especially when we're in a culture (musical,
societal, whatever) that plays on just pandering to and reinforcing our
sweet little desires?
Hands up who'd mourn if Alice Cooper died today, and he was the same
Alice Cooper of ten years ago? Hands up who mourned William S.
Burroughs two months ago? There's a point I absolutely agree with
Jason on: we're so hung up on our role models, on images of what's
acceptable, it's frightening. And wrong.
(Not to undervalue Rich Mullins, who gave us music - what little I've
known of his - that lifted worship that much further. Who fed us, and
there's no more. But that's all -within- the body; and I really can't
imagine him of even -vaguely- intending us to keep ourselves fixated on
that cosy little place.)
butting
--
Bryce Utting http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~butting
the cross before me, the world behind me
no turning back
Other Doug
Mark Silva <msi...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
...but maybe some will see how upsetting this kind of argument is to
people and not do it themselves, and in doing so live better lives and
reach more people.
>-- MWS
Douglas A. Telfer
othe...@aol.com
...who doesn't like being thrown into the rhetorical we even if it does
fit him...
Beverley R. White
In article <60a8e5$j...@netserv.waikato.ac.nz>,
Bryce Utting <but...@cs.waikato.ac.nz> wrote:
>Hands up who'd mourn if Alice Cooper died today, and he was the same
>Alice Cooper of ten years ago?
* bev puts her hand up.
>Hands up who mourned William S. Burroughs two months ago?
* bev puts her hand up again.
I was not as shaken by Burroughs dying as I was by Mullins, but that was
more of a case of extremes. I admire Burroughs' work, am finding myself
more and more greatly influenced by it, all that; it struck me as unjust
at the time that it happened, but he was not exactly young. Mullins not
only had the influence of work on beveryouth, but was a friend to someone
important to me, if now distant. It's somewhat more personal in different
ways, I suppose, even though I never met either man. The grief is textured
very differently. Burroughs was an abstract representation of the ideas
he conveyed and the art he created to me; I mourn the loss of its
voice. As powerful as that is, it is not at all the same. Yeah, I wept;
however, I didn't sob furiously and get drunk in a cafe for William Seward
Burroughs.
But, yeah, Burroughs dying was a shakesome experience too.
shearn
Bryce Utting wrote:
> Hands up who mourned William S. Burroughs two months ago?
i did.
> --
> Bryce Utting
colin
Alh32269
ok, again i have to comment....
all stuff aside, can't you at least watch the language?? there are kids
here, and i am sure there is some sort of rule about using profanity in here
aim
Alh32269
<all the stuff about what jason and those arguing with him snipped>
would you all mind renaming your fighting threads??? i'd like to talk
about Rich, but when i open a post with his name on it, all i see is people
fighting
so if you are talking about the whole seatbelt/jason thing, would you
PLEASE call it something else???
thanks
amy
Beverley R. White
In article <19970924063...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
Alh32269 <alh3...@aol.com> wrote:
>all stuff aside, can't you at least watch the language?? there are kids
>here, and i am sure there is some sort of rule about using profanity in here
Unmoderated USENET newsgroups lack any such firm regulation.
See http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday/rmc/
Chuck Pearson
Michael (BigBrother...@ThePentagon.com) wrote:
: Please, Jason, let us grieve the loss and celebrate the homecoming of a great
: 20th century apostle.
*chuck shakes head sadly*
i give up.
chuck doesn't need to post to r.m.c for the next few days anyway, as classes
have started back up...
--
...and it won't break my heart to say goodbye.
[thanx to rich mullins. for everything.]
cpea...@freenet.columbus.oh.us
Dannyboy
In article <Pine.ULT.3.95.97092...@ias.ga.unc.edu>,
agreed.
That question seems to be the answer to everything.
Dannyboy - I would say more, but I imagine I'd be contradicting myself
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Ryan Humphrey
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<609kos$q...@nntp02.primenet.com>...
INregards to too much faith can kill you, a study disagrees. First off.. I
am a christian who misses Rich very much however, faith is what made Rich
who he was and caused him to touch countless lives including mine. Anyway,
the study showed the top three things that increase longevity: Pets, Kids,
and Faith.... Chew on that....
Rich will be forever loved and missed and nothing will forsake his
memory...
-Ryan
"Step by step you'll lead me. And I will follow you all of my days"
Mike Grello
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote in article
<6095j8$k...@nntp02.primenet.com>...
> Will McDonald <wmc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) writes:
> Now, that's a joke. It has a point, but because it's a joke, it's easy
> to ignore. If we're ever in a flood, we might remember it, but will we
> apply the lesson to our daily lives? No. But what happens if we stick
> Rich Mullins in that joke? And God says, "What, a seatbelt wasn't
> enough for you?"
>
> *Gasp*
>
> Why, that's fucking tasteless! You won't forget it though, will you?
Well, it's inaccurate (both are), It's more like :
An old couple are killed in a car accident, (shortened for brevity, you
want jokes go to rec.humor), it's beautiful , the old fellow turns to his
wife and says "it's all your fault". "what do you mean?" she replies. "if
it weren't for your bran muffins, we could have been here 10 years ago".
I don't think anybody is going to ask God why He let them die, they'll be
too busy admiring His handywork.
And no, Jason, I am not interested in getting up a busload tonight.
>
> And you may get the point, that there is such a thing as too much
> faith. I've given up all hope that anyone will get the second point,
> the irony of the fact that for God's followers to survive, they
> essentially have to act as though he didn't exist, and can't be
> trusted to intervene on their behalf.
Make up yor mind, is personal responsibility a good thing, or not (i.e.
"God helps them who help themselves" -- Jason)?
What were we talking about?
Heather
>Live like you'll die tomorrow, die knowing you'll live forever, Live
>Right
>Love like you'll leave tomorrow, leave knowin it'll last forever.
>
Amen
Jason and Heather
Ryan Humphrey <ban...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
> > John v <hoo...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
> > > Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather)
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Too much faith can get you killed. Blunt, yeah. But also
> > > > ironic. Those who live as though God doesn't exist live
> > > > longest.
> > >
> > > Then explain those studies that crop up every year or so that
> > > show that those with any sort of faith live longer than those
> > > with none?
> >
> > Care to cite? I'm well past the point where a vague reference to
> > "some study" carries much weight. Besides any study which showed
> > that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
> > the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal
> > type of deity, or more likely still, a placebo effect.
>
> Anyway, the study showed the top three things that increase
> longevity: Pets, Kids, and Faith.... Chew on that....
"A study". No cite. I think this must be a Christian urban legend or
something.
Cheef Dan
Jason and Heather (stei...@primenet.com) wrote:
: "A study". No cite. I think this must be a Christian urban legend or
: something.
Check this source:
http://www.townhall.com/frc/perspective/pv95j2fs.html
unfortunately it doesn't give cite issue and page, but it does list
publications... which should be enough for those looking to hunt down the
original articles.
John v
Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>> > Care to cite? I'm well past the point where a vague reference to
>> > "some study" carries much weight. Besides any study which showed
>> > that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
>> > the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal
>> > type of deity, or more likely still, a placebo effect.
One normally doesn't make a habit of jotting down the reference material to
news broadcasts...
besides which : "any study which showed
that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal
type of deity, or more likely still, a placebo effect." Still invalidates
your " Those who live as though God doesn't exist live longest."
>"A study". No cite. I think this must be a Christian urban legend or
>something.
Not a study, a couple of them ... but like I said I normally don't make a
habit of jotting down the reference material for various news broadcasts ...
John v.
Heck, I've put my foot in my mouth so many times that my gums have
developed athlete's foot.
-jeremy choi
Dr.Tony Shore
In article <609kos$q...@nntp02.primenet.com>, stei...@primenet.com (Jason
and Heather) wrote:
> any study which showed
> that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
> the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal type
> of deity
God is a universal diety.
dr. tony shore Sub€Lime Records
-----------------------------------
"...Thompson hurls a wedge of lime against the wood paneling of a far wall and mumbles something about fruit-throwing as a form of communication in one culture or another."
- from "At Home With Hunter S. Thompson" - N.Y. Times
Jason and Heather
John v <hoo...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote:
> Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
> > Care to cite? I'm well past the point where a vague reference to
> > that any & all faiths are beneficial would indicate that it's not
> > the exclusive Christian God at work. More likely some universal
>
> One normally doesn't make a habit of jotting down the reference
> material to news broadcasts...
Fortunately for your credibility, Cheef Dan was kind enough to
provide a reference for me to look up.
> besides which : "any study which showed that any & all faiths are
> beneficial would indicate that it's not the exclusive Christian God
> at work. More likely some universal type of deity, or more likely
> still, a placebo effect." Still invalidates your " Those who live
> as though God doesn't exist live longest."
No. Note that my original point was about having too much faith. ie.
Faith that has a practical effect on how we live our lives. The study
in question didn't address that at all, just whether or not the
subjects claimed faith at all. It's entirely possible to claim faith
and still live as though God doesn't exist.
That is, in fact, precisely what most Christians do.
For example, although Jesus commanded his followers to turn the
other cheek, most Christians understand that following such advice
would quickly lead to the destruction of an orderly and peaceful
society. Their actual behavior is much closer to the satanic
commandment, "If a man smites you on one cheek, smash him on the
other." The same is true of many of Christ's other commandments.
It is people like Rich - who actually live their faith, impractical
parts and all - who get to suffer the consequences of following the
bad advice contained in the Bible. But fortunately for the survival
of the Christian meme, such people are few and far between.
Jerry B. Ray
In article <60chml$o...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
>It is people like Rich - who actually live their faith, impractical
>parts and all - who get to suffer the consequences of following the
>bad advice contained in the Bible. But fortunately for the survival
>of the Christian meme, such people are few and far between.
While I see the point you're making, I don't see the connection between
Rich failing to wear a seatbelt and the "having too much faith is bad
for you" point that you're trying to make. How exactly are you making
that leap?
Jason and Heather
Dr.Tony Shore <drs...@dersplat.com> wrote:
> stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
> >
> > any study which showed that any & all faiths are beneficial would
> > indicate that it's not the exclusive Christian God at work. More
>
> God is a universal diety.
He answers prayers addressed to Allah as readily as prayers addressed
to the Christian God?
That's what you're implying. You may even believe it. I know some
readers of this group do. In your case, I'd urge you keep your mouth
shut about it. The evangelical Christian music market can be
_remarkably_ intolerant of heretics...
Norman Leach
> "A study". No cite. I think this must be a Christian urban legend or
> something.
>
> r.m.c resident atheist
nah, it can't be a Christian urban legend. we don't have those ;-|~ BTW,
my best friend's Sunday School teacher has this brother who is close
friends with a distant relative o this missionary. and this missionary
went over to tribal africa to witness to all the lost souls... and while he
was there he thought to himself "Self, I think I will play these tribal
africans some good ol' christian rock music." He did this thinking they
would be able to closely identify with the english lyrics which espoused
Christ. (God can overcome any barrier especially a small thing like
language) but i digress... anyway, when he played this music for them the
natives became quite upset and asked this missionary why he was playing
music to summon the evil spirits (satan can't resist a good beat). Is that
spooky or what? as soon as i heard that i burned every record i had. and
you know it has got to be true because of my sources. (sorry i can't
remember my friends name right now).
back to the subject at hand...we christians would never fall for something
as stupid as an urban legend.
norm
PS - Jason, we may not agree on everything but I have got to admit that you
do a good job of citing any sources you happen to mention. a lot of
christians could take lessons from you.
Beverley R. White
In article <60c00g$n...@nntp02.primenet.com>,>Hmm. Maybe tobacco companies should start pitching their products
>to Christians. We've got Testamints, why not Holy Smokes?
Oh, come on; they'd taste just like Canadian cigs: all preservative
chemicals, no good tobacco.
Icky ftang.
-- bev will smoke her heathen djarums: lethal, but *tasty*
Jason and Heather
> > impractical parts and all - who get to suffer the consequences of
> > following the bad advice contained in the Bible. But fortunately
> > for the survival
>
> between Rich failing to wear a seatbelt and the "having too much
> faith is bad for you" point that you're trying to make. How
> exactly are you making that leap?
If your every thought is on God, it's easy to forget everything else.
To forget that you need to make some concessions to the world you
live in, if you want to stay in it for long. I'm certain Rich
remembered to pray for safety before departing on his trip. But he
didn't remember the one thing that really would have made him safer.
I've known a couple of people like Rich. You don't know the ones I'm
talking about, but you can use Keith Green as an example if I'm being
too conjectural for you.
Utterly dedicated to God, they live recklessly. Other Christians
admire them for that. I think a lot of Christians realize just what
it is they're called to, and when they see someone who actually
begins to live up to the dedication Jesus demanded, there's a
tendency to revere them. Sure, A few Christians see the danger, but
they can't really say anything. How can anyone say something bad
about someone so holy without looking like an agent of Satan?
Besides, Christians are supposed to be fools in the eyes of men,
right?
Disaster inevitably follows. Of course, it's usually explained in
terms of spiritual warfare. The Devil is attacking one of God's most
powerful warriors. There's never any consideration for the possibility
that they might have brought the trouble on themselves through
simple carelessness and inattentiveness to material things. The more
trials they experience, the more proof it is that they're doing
what God wants them to do. (And the bigger their fan club gets.)
They focus more on God and even less on the day-to-day affairs of
running their lives. It's a nasty cycle.
One day they pray when they should be buckling their seatbelt,
or trust God when they should trust the weight and balance charts,
and it all catches up to them.
It doesn't always happen that way. Most start paying attention when
they get married and have a family. That tends to stick a person's
feet to the ground pretty quick. (Paul was onto something. It's no
coincidence that true believers are often single.) A lucky few find
themselves with fan clubs large enough to support a lifestyle of
personal attendants, business managers, and the like to insulate them
from the consequences of their actions. Others have family who serve
the same purpose. Some just burn out. I've known a few to go mental.
The harder they serve God, the worse their life gets, and it
eventually takes its toll.
*Sigh*
I'm rambling now. (Low blood sugar, I think. Will go get some ice
cream when I'm done here.) Most of this doesn't apply to Rich at all,
but the basics were definitely there. You only had to see him on TV a
couple of times, or read a few interviews to realize that he wasn't
exactly "all here". I think it's just that sense of sincerity and
detachment from the mundane world that made so many people look up to
him. And I think it killed him, just as surely as if he'd put a gun
to his head and pulled the trigger.
When I have the energy, it makes me angry, because Rich was as much
a victim as he was at fault. Right now it just makes me depressed.
Jason and Heather
> > or something.
>
> http://www.townhall.com/frc/perspective/pv95j2fs.html
>
> unfortunately it doesn't give cite issue and page, but it does list
> publications... which should be enough for those looking to hunt
> down the original articles.
Thanks.
Jason and Heather
Mike Grello <mgr...@scsn.net> wrote:
>
> It's more like :
>
> An old couple are killed in a car accident, (shortened for brevity,
> you want jokes go to rec.humor), it's beautiful , the old fellow
> turns to his wife and says "it's all your fault". "what do you
> mean?" she replies. "if it weren't for your bran muffins, we could
> have been here 10 years ago".
>
> I don't think anybody is going to ask God why He let them die,
> they'll be too busy admiring His handywork.
>
> And no, Jason, I am not interested in getting up a busload tonight.
Well drat. It does bring up a bit of a conundrum though. If heaven's
so great, why aren't you getting up a busload? I know, I know, it's
a sin to commit suicide. It's just a shortcut to hell. But if it's a
sin to try to get to heaven before your time, is it a sin to take a
few risks to shorten your stay on earth?
eg. Don't eat gramma's bran muffins, don't wear your seatbelt..
Hmm. Maybe tobacco companies should start pitching their products
to Christians. We've got Testamints, why not Holy Smokes?
> > And you may get the point, that there is such a thing as too much
> > faith. I've given up all hope that anyone will get the second
> > point, the irony of the fact that for God's followers to survive,
> > they essentially have to act as though he didn't exist, and can't
> > be trusted to intervene on their behalf.
>
> Make up yor mind, is personal responsibility a good thing, or not
> (i.e. "God helps them who help themselves" -- Jason)?
Personal responsibility is a great thing, as long as it's not the kind
of sham responsibility that football players use, crediting God with
every touchdown, and blaming themselves for every fumble.
Alh32269
>bev. make it work.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
thanks for the info Bev... it can't hurt to ask people to watch it though,
i mean the worst they can say is no, right?
i am not here to censor anyone, AT ALL, i just think that it actually
shows *more* intelligence to find other adjectives besides those that
usually contain 4-letters :-)
aim~*~*
Ed Rock
On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, shearn wrote:
> Bryce Utting wrote:
> > Hands up who mourned William S. Burroughs two months ago?
>
> i did.
I mourned Jimmy Stewart at Cornerstone.
I still mourn the loss of Kevin Gilbert...
Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu/~ecrab Ed Crabtree
"I think I could write Christian hits, but I don't think I could face the
thought of standing before God and answering to that." --Mark Robertson
Norman Leach
> You know it's like the jail where late at night someone would call out a
> number and everyone would laugh. The new guy didn't understand. The
> jokes were so old and everyone knew them so they'd just yell out the
> number... maybe we could do these recurring discussions the same way...
>
> Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu/~ecrab Ed
Crabtree
> "I think I could write Christian hits, but I don't think I could face
the
> thought of standing before God and answering to that." --Mark
Robertson
Thread number 2!!!!!
norm
don...@imagixx.net
In article <19970925060...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Sometimes though, the only adjectives that work well are the ones with
four letters :-) Not always, but sometimes.
Gabe White
Ed Rock (ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, shearn wrote:
: > Bryce Utting wrote:
: > > Hands up who mourned William S. Burroughs two months ago?
: >
: > i did.
: I mourned Jimmy Stewart at Cornerstone.
: I still mourn the loss of Kevin Gilbert...
Don't forget Robert Mitchum. Probably the greatest actor of all time. *sniff*
Gabe
RMC co-moderator
--
"A man can't be always defending the truth;
there must be a time to feed on it."
-C.S. Lewis
stephen trachian
Once upon a time, stei...@primenet.com (Jason and Heather) wrote:
>
> Too much faith can get you killed. Blunt, yeah. But also ironic.
and where are the studies to back this up?
or is this just a bunch of bull.
Too much faith *can* get you killed. sounds like a pretty vague
statement. Using "Too much", "can". How about "Too much intelligence can
get you killed" or "Too much chocolate can get you killed". Now as for a
lack of a shrubbery...
stephen trachian
stra...@moccasun.utc.edu
SF59:So you think you're radical...
mgr...@scsn.net
In article <609bih$m...@nntp02.primenet.com>,> Mike Grello <mgr...@scsn.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok, I'm trolling. But I'm trying to leave clues on those hooks.
> > > Just once, I'd like to see someone nibble the clue off, or at
> > > least take them both. It's really pathetic how many people manage
> > > to swallow the hook and miss the clue entirely.
> >
> > Jesus did the same thing, but somehow people didn't feel like they
> > swallowed bat-vomit afterward.
>
> No, they just wanted to kill him.
Fair enough, the people who disagreed with His message and stood to lose
if it were embraced wanted to kill Him. But His message wasn't mean
spirited.
>
> jason
> r.m.c resident atheist
>
> PS. No, I'm not comparing myself to Christ.
But I was, Jason. You have something important to say. You can lose the
chip and still keep the message.
> I don't expect people
> to worship me after I piss them off.
>
> --
> "The man who marries a modern woman marries a woman who expects to vote
> like a man, smoke like a man, have her hair cut like a man, and go without
> restrictions and without chaperones and obey nobody."
> BOBBED HAIR - John R. Rice, 1941 http://www.primenet.com/~steiners/
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Jason and Heather
Gabe White <gwh...@freenet.columbus.oh.us> wrote:
> Ed Rock (ec...@ias.ga.unc.edu) wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, shearn wrote:
> > > Bryce Utting wrote:
> > > > Hands up who mourned William S. Burroughs two months ago?
> > >
> > > i did.
> >
> > I mourned Jimmy Stewart at Cornerstone.
> >
> > I still mourn the loss of Kevin Gilbert...
>
> Don't forget Robert Mitchum. Probably the greatest actor of all
> time. *sniff*
And he died "drunk & happy". What a magnificent bastard. They don't
build 'em like that anymore. But we still have Peter O'Toole and
Richard Harris. Enjoy 'em while you can.
jason
r.m.c resident atheist
Ed Rock
On 24 Sep 1997, Alh32269 wrote:
> ok, again i have to comment....
>
> all stuff aside, can't you at least watch the language?? there are kids
> here, and i am sure there is some sort of rule about using profanity in here
Thanks for playing, but there are no RULES.
Content is self policed.
Ed Rock
On 24 Sep 1997, Beverley R. White wrote:
> In article <60c00g$n...@nntp02.primenet.com>,
> Jason and Heather <stei...@primenet.com> wrote:
> >Hmm. Maybe tobacco companies should start pitching their products
> >to Christians. We've got Testamints, why not Holy Smokes?
>
> Oh, come on; they'd taste just like Canadian cigs: all preservative
> chemicals, no good tobacco.
My friends from Toronto were recently kavetching about how bad the
American ones are. I dunno. I'll stick to the biannual cigar or pipe.
;-)
Ed Rock
On 25 Sep 1997, Alh32269 wrote:
> i am not here to censor anyone, AT ALL, i just think that it actually
> shows *more* intelligence to find other adjectives besides those that
> usually contain 4-letters :-)
Guys, I realize the gay aurgument is dying down, but that doesn't mean we
have to go for the cussing one again.
You know it's like the jail where late at night someone would call out a
number and everyone would laugh. The new guy didn't understand. The
jokes were so old and everyone knew them so they'd just yell out the
number... maybe we could do these recurring discussions the same way...
Ed Rock Ed Rocks the Web http://ias.ga.unc.edu/~ecrab Ed Crabtree
ReasRod
All i can say, Jason, is that it's too bad you never knew Rich. Sound
like you'd have some interesting conversations.
shearn
Jason and Heather wrote:
> Hmm. Maybe tobacco companies should start pitching their products
> to Christians. We've got Testamints, why not Holy Smokes?
i know i would love a reason to justify continue smoking. maybe they
could include a mini-devotional w/ every pack (collect them all).
> jason
> r.m.c resident atheist
colin