Proctor & Gamble= SATAN
tro...@cencom.net
on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
with the Church of Satan.
He stated that a large portion of the profits from Proctor & Gamble
products go to support this satanic church. When asked by Donahue
if stating this on television would hurt his business, he replied,
"There are not enough Christians in the United States to make a
difference."
Below is a list of Proctor & Gamble products:
Cake Mixes Duncan Hines
Cleaning Aids Bold, Bounce, Cascade, Cheer, Joy,
Comet, Dawn, Downy, Gain, Mr. Clean,
Oxydol, Spic & Span,Tide,Top Job
Coffee Folgers
Oils Crisco, Puritan, Fluggo
Deodorants Secret, Sure
Hair Care Lilt, Head & Shoulders, Pert, Prell,
Vidal Sassoon
Diapers Luvs, Pampers
Medications Pepto Bismol
Mouthwash Scope
Toothpaste Crest, Gleem
Peanut Butter Jif
Personal Hygiene Always, Attend Undergarments
Lotions Oil of Olay, Wondra
Soaps Camay, Coast, Ivory, Lava, Safeguard,
Zest
Tissues Charmin, Puffs
If you are not sure about a product, look for the symbol of a Ram's horn
that will appear on each product beginning in April. The ram's horn will
form the 666 which is known as Satan's number. Christians should
remember that if they purchase any of these products, they are
contributing to the support of the Church of Satan.
Inform other Christians about this. Stop buying Proctor & Gamble
products and let's show the President of Proctor & Gamble that there are
more than enough Christians to make a difference.
Anyone interested in this topic can send $3.00 to Donahue Transcripts,
Journal Graphics, 267 Broadway, New York, N.Y. 10007
We urge you to make copies of this notice and pass it on to as
many people as you can. We need to stand up as Christians and
be counted, Especially on a matter such as this.
FELLOW CHRISTIANS, GOD HOLDS US RESPONSIBLE FOR
WHAT WE KNOW. LET US MAKE A LIAR OUT OF THE DEVIL
AND SEND HIM BANKRUPT!!
Scholar and Fool
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
>Inform other Christians about this. Stop buying Proctor & Gamble
>products and let's show the President of Proctor & Gamble that there are
>more than enough Christians to make a difference.
Earlier today, the above person posted information about Proctor &
Gamble and the church of Satan on this *Christian* forum. The Bible
says that the devil will hide himself as an "angel of light" and that
he comes only to "kill, steal, and destroy." Thus, we have definitive
proof that the above person is a servent of the devil! Yes, my friends,
do not be decieved! He/she/it just perpetuated information about the
church of Satan on a *Christian* forum! Why? To win souls for his
master, Lucifer! And if you don't think I've shown enough proof yet,
look at this: he capitalized "church" in "church of Satan"! Now we
know where his heart and loyalty lay! Oh, my friends, these are dark
times we live in, when any passerby can can say "ni!" to....err...I
mean, when a person like this has the audacity and boldness to perpetuate
the church of Satan on a Christian forum! My friends, this should not be!
For transcripts of this evil man, write to me. I may not be able to
prove it, but I saw this post and I know what it means and I will tell
everyone else about his evil deeds! We must stop the perpetuation of
the church of Satan! And this man/women/beast must be an example to
others hoping to worm their way into the house of the one and true
Light!
LET'S STAND UP LIKE THE CHRISTIANS WE ARE AND SEND THIS
MAN/WOMAN/BEAST BANKRUPT...I MEAN, RUNNING BACK TO HIS
EVIL MASTER!
Reverend Phool - Dispenser of Truth and Official Voice o' God
--
^$% Terry Leifeste, Scholar and Fool /// now as: hatf...@phoenix.net %#$
*&#&^%#&@*$(%)^*(^($%^#^$%$(^()&_^(*$%&^%#$%^@#*^%$^$%@*%$(^$&%^#&^$(^*&$%*^#
@ *DISCLAIMER: Any authorized post bearing this signature file may be prone $
#%& to sudden and uncontrollable bouts of sarcasm. You have been warned. &#@
Jerry B. Ray
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
>Anyone interested in this topic can send $3.00 to Donahue Transcripts,
>Journal Graphics, 267 Broadway, New York, N.Y. 10007
>FELLOW CHRISTIANS, GOD HOLDS US RESPONSIBLE FOR
>WHAT WE KNOW. LET US MAKE A LIAR OUT OF THE DEVIL
>AND SEND HIM BANKRUPT!!
So, did you see the Donahue show in question? No?
Well, did you write for that transcript? No?
Did you at least check into some sort of "hoaxes" list to find out if this is
actually a myth that's been perpetuated for at least 10 years now? No?
Then why are you wasting bandwidth with this garbage?
JRjr
--
'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
Children growing up, old friends growing older
The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
##### vap...@prism.gatech.edu ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr. ################
Will McDonald
This Proctor & Gamble Rumor has been making the rounds for years. It
is absolutely untrue. Check the alt.folklore.suburban Usenet for more
information.
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
>
>He stated that a large portion of the profits from Proctor & Gamble
>products go to support this satanic church. When asked by Donahue
>if stating this on television would hurt his business, he replied,
>"There are not enough Christians in the United States to make a
>difference."
Yes. The classic bait tactic. "Christian's can't do nothing about it
. ." Grow up people! Don't fight imaginary battles!
>Below is a list of Proctor & Gamble products:
[Names of products deleted]
>If you are not sure about a product, look for the symbol of a Ram's
horn
>that will appear on each product beginning in April. The ram's horn
will
>form the 666 which is known as Satan's number.
Oh yes. The secret sign. (This is actually a new twist on the rumor.)
Funny that it's not on there right now so we can check it out . . .
Christians should
>remember that if they purchase any of these products, they are
>contributing to the support of the Church of Satan.
>
Let's get a point of theology and common sense clear. If Christians
buy a P & G product, they are supporting P & G. Period. Does God
expect us to buy products only from Christian brothers and sisters?
Shall we only drink milk from a Christian cow? (Apologies to Steve
Taylor) I know that when I buy groceries at the store, some of that
money goes to employees who probably spend their checks on pornography
and illegal drugs. Am I supporting the pornography and drug trade?
Even if this story were true (it's not) -- we would not be supporting
the Church of Satan (actually a rather minor player in the occult).
>Inform other Christians about this. Stop buying Proctor & Gamble
>products and let's show the President of Proctor & Gamble that there
are
>more than enough Christians to make a difference.
The classic battle cry. We can't make a difference in the real world
so we're going to fight imaginary battles . . .
>
>Anyone interested in this topic can send $3.00 to Donahue Transcripts,
>Journal Graphics, 267 Broadway, New York, N.Y. 10007
>
>We urge you to make copies of this notice and pass it on to as
>many people as you can. We need to stand up as Christians and
>be counted, Especially on a matter such as this.
>
>FELLOW CHRISTIANS, GOD HOLDS US RESPONSIBLE FOR
>WHAT WE KNOW. LET US MAKE A LIAR OUT OF THE DEVIL
>AND SEND HIM BANKRUPT!!
>
Yeah. Sounds like Donahue is going to sell a lot of transcripts.
Funny, I thought the devil was already a liar. Hmmmm...... I think
this is one of his tricks. Make Christians look like fools and
rumor-mongers while the world is perishing . . .
Will
p.s. Be sure to check out the alt.folklore.suburban 'net for more
information.
Beverley R. White
OK, how many times do I need to hear this urban legend revised
and reposted before I die?
--
w e d n e s d a y - @tezcat.com - http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday/
This name is the hairshirt I wear/and this hairshirt is woven from your
brown hair/This song is the cross that I bear/Bear with me -- b n l
David Fernald
>
>
There's also black helicopters flying around my house, listening to
my modem as I compose this.
The Ogre
No meat, No Law but God's, No war!
Douglas C Pearson
and about the 40th all-time.
it's not true. it's not even close to being true. it's been debunked
time and again.
please verify rumors like this before posting them to international
newsgroups.
thank you,
chuck pearson
In article <40jggk$i...@news.cencom.net>, <tro...@cencom.net> wrote:
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
>
>He stated that a large portion of the profits from Proctor & Gamble
>products go to support this satanic church. When asked by Donahue
>if stating this on television would hurt his business, he replied,
>"There are not enough Christians in the United States to make a
>difference."
>
>Below is a list of Proctor & Gamble products:
>
> Cake Mixes Duncan Hines
> Cleaning Aids Bold, Bounce, Cascade, Cheer, Joy,
> Comet, Dawn, Downy, Gain, Mr. Clean,
> Oxydol, Spic & Span,Tide,Top Job
> Coffee Folgers
> Oils Crisco, Puritan, Fluggo
> Deodorants Secret, Sure
> Hair Care Lilt, Head & Shoulders, Pert, Prell,
> Vidal Sassoon
> Diapers Luvs, Pampers
> Medications Pepto Bismol
> Mouthwash Scope
> Toothpaste Crest, Gleem
> Peanut Butter Jif
> Personal Hygiene Always, Attend Undergarments
> Lotions Oil of Olay, Wondra
> Soaps Camay, Coast, Ivory, Lava, Safeguard,
> Zest
> Tissues Charmin, Puffs
>
>If you are not sure about a product, look for the symbol of a Ram's horn
>that will appear on each product beginning in April. The ram's horn will
>form the 666 which is known as Satan's number. Christians should
>remember that if they purchase any of these products, they are
>contributing to the support of the Church of Satan.
>
>Inform other Christians about this. Stop buying Proctor & Gamble
>products and let's show the President of Proctor & Gamble that there are
>more than enough Christians to make a difference.
>
>Anyone interested in this topic can send $3.00 to Donahue Transcripts,
>Journal Graphics, 267 Broadway, New York, N.Y. 10007
>
>We urge you to make copies of this notice and pass it on to as
>many people as you can. We need to stand up as Christians and
>be counted, Especially on a matter such as this.
>
>FELLOW CHRISTIANS, GOD HOLDS US RESPONSIBLE FOR
>WHAT WE KNOW. LET US MAKE A LIAR OUT OF THE DEVIL
>AND SEND HIM BANKRUPT!!
>
--
chuck pearson - dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program, bio113 head ta, daddy of amelia catherine pearson.
SORRY
exist. I should have waited, I was just very upset when I read this and
I thought the rest of the Christian community should know. I feel really
stupid for not waiting. I didnt know it was a hoax. Just trying to be a
"good Christian".
Michael Richter
: OK, how many times do I need to hear this urban legend revised
: and reposted before I die?
Hopefully, many and far between.
--
looking at the world and what do i see?
i see a human race losing to its apathy
from the physical salvation of the world at large
to the spiritual diseases in our own back-yards
-- mortal
Login for Mike Grello
|>
|>
|> This Proctor & Gamble Rumor has been making the rounds for years. It
|> is absolutely untrue. Check the alt.folklore.suburban Usenet for more
|> information.
|>
Well, I don't know about any of that (I am aware of ther rumor status of this
story), but Procter and Gamble has one of the worst records of animal testing
and abuse of any company. In light of the present anti-environment,
anti-anything-decent-and-life-affirming stance of the Church in America, I
would say that P&G is probably run by upstanding members of thier (christian)
congregation. ;^}
Mike
RBlake6279
investigating Christians worldwide. Proctor and gamble will sue anyone
spreadign this rumor.
Rob
RBl...@aol.com
"Momma bought a chicken she thought it was a duck, she put it on the table
with its legs sticking up".....Larry Norman
Darren Aitcheson
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
Has this eejit never checked out alt.folklore.urban???
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Beverley R. White
Michael Richter <mric...@MCS.COM> wrote:
>Beverley R. White (wedn...@tezcat.com) wrote:
>
>: OK, how many times do I need to hear this urban legend revised
>: and reposted before I die?
>
>Hopefully, many and far between.
How about FEW and far between? Or none and far between? :)
V-X
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
I just thought that you and your provider would like to know that over
the past decade, P&G has pretty much stopped trying to defend
themselves against this lie and started suing people. If you write to
them, though, they'll send you a nice package of documents explaining
how untrue this is.
BTW, I first heard this story when I was about 14, in 1981. I first
heard that the head of P&G went on Donahue in the mid-80s. So what
does he do, go on every year?
Ask before you post, next time.
__________________________________________________________________
It's V-X!!!
Q: What's the difference between Rush Limbaugh and the Hindenburg?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://dig.netcentral.net/vx
---------------I am the Jerry Garcia of Tagamet.------------------
V-X
>please verify rumors like this before posting them to international
>newsgroups.
You better listen to Doug, man...
V-"He's hipper than *Carman*"-X
V-X
I'm just impressed that you know how to change your username...I
didn't until way after my first big Usenet boo-boo.
Welcome to the Internet, SORRY.
V-"Love the Pop-o-Matic dice"-X
Scholar and Fool
>Ask before you post, next time.
Just be careful who you ask and where you ask. And how you ask. Or
you might be seen as spreading the rumor instead of trying to find out
the truth.
Jerry B. Ray
>>Ask before you post, next time.
>Just be careful who you ask and where you ask. And how you ask. Or
>you might be seen as spreading the rumor instead of trying to find out
>the truth.
In other words, don't ask about it here. :-)
Tony Bowden
> BTW, I first heard this story when I was about 14, in 1981. I first
> heard that the head of P&G went on Donahue in the mid-80s. So what
> does he do, go on every year?
well ... he used to go on every couple of years from what I've seen of
this story, but recently he's been going on more often. I think he's
actully been on it 3 times this year now ... Has Donahue totally run
out of people to bring on, that he has to keep getting the head of P&G
to come on every couple of months?
Or maybe it's because no-one actually saw the programme all the other
times and he's trying to make up for it ....
Tony
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Bowden | Mail: t.bo...@qub.ac.uk or aj...@yfn.ysu.edu
Belfast | URL : http://boris.qub.ac.uk/tony/ for Matthew Fox, Manics,
N. Ireland | Radiohead, Sam Phillips, Jack T Chick, Innocence Mission
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
active simplicity
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++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++
++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++
walter gorlitz
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
Get me a transcipt and I'll believe it. This rumour has been circulating
far too long and I'm sick and tired of hearing about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------
| walter gorlitz | "The Christian life is about |
| Vancouver, BC, Canada | the beginning of hope, |
| walter_...@mindlink.bc.ca | not the end of struggle." |
| or CIS:70404,416 | Brent Bourgeois |
--------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Race
>OK, how many times do I need to hear this urban legend revised
>and reposted before I die?
I can't answer that until I know when you're going to die. When you post that
information, we'll be in better position to estimate.
Paul D. Race - Paul....@DaytonOH.ATTgis.com
(513) 445-1665
Should I or any of my opinions be killed or
captured, my employer will disavow any knowledge
of my actions.
Eric Lee
>
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
No, no no! This is an URBAN LEGEND that has been floating around for
several years. Please don't forward this to anyone, it simply isn't true.
The people who originally wrote this are despicable, but the people who
keep changing the dates and sending it out as recent news are probably
even more despicable.
Eric Lee
Ron Shank
First let me just say that I'm sure troy was well intended and was acting on
what he thought he should do.. but... As many have pointed out, He is wrong.
My name is Ron, and I work for the American Family Assoc., It seems that not a
week, if not a single day, goes by with out a call or letter about P&G and
their symbol/logo. Each year the letter below is circulated with a differant
year.. (Maybe Donahue is doing this?) :-) Anyway, IT IS FALSE. Trust me
when I say, if it was true the American Family Association would be trying to
do something about it. See what I mean in the boycott box of our WWW site
(http://www.gocin.com/afa/home.html)
Please remember the Christian way is not to flame those who probably meant
well to begin with.
Keep Him First!
Ron Shank
here is the article for those who missed it...
>From: tro...@cencom.net
>Subject: Proctor & Gamble= SATAN
>Date: 13 Aug 1995 00:20:36 GMT
>The President of Proctor & Gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue show
>on March 1, 1995. He announced that due to the openness of our
>society, he was coming out of the closet about his association
>with the Church of Satan.
>He stated that a large portion of the profits from Proctor & Gamble
Fredric Mckinney
believe one word of it. To me, it's sounds like nothing but someone with
some kind of personal vendetta against P&G. Besides, if this were really
true, I think I would have seen it in American Family Association's
monthly Journal, and this bunk about P&G being satanic has not once
appeared in there. I think if it were going on, AFA would probably call
for a boycott. I don't know who started this, but I would like to see it
stopped immediately.
Now, for those of you who *are* bent on picking on a major corporation,
Unilever has been a major sponsor of filthy and violent programming, such
as NYPD Blue and the sleaze-driven daytime talk shows. Unilever has
refused to knock it off, and so AFA called for a boycott of Unilever
starting with the May issue of the AFA Journal. Their complete products
are listed in each issue published since last may. If you wanna pick on
someone, pick on Unilever and stop spreading false rumors about Procter
and Gamble. Sheeez!!!
Fred McKinney
Fayetteville, Ark.
Login for Mike Grello
|> "In light of the present anti-environment,
|> anti-anything-decent-and-life-affirming stance of the Church in America, I
|>
|> would say that P&G is probably run by upstanding members of thier
|> (christian)
|> congregation. ;^}"
|>
|> Christianity, then not everyone in it is "anti-environment,
|> anti-anything-decent-and-life-affirming"; 3) The God I believe in is
|> pro-environment, pro-everything-decent-and-life-affirming, and therefore,
|> by MY definition, anything ANTI-the above is unChristian and therefore not
|> part of "the Church."
|>
|> Pant, pant, pant. Somebody cool me off.
As I said, your doing fine. Now write your congressman and tell him that you
are a Christian, and that as far as you are concerned he may not use your
beloved Jesus name as an excuse for dispoiling the environment. This is
something we need to do, stand up and be counted. I am a Christian and I
oppose animal testing, I oppose gutting the clean air and water acts. Further,
call your local Christian book store and ask why the books of an avowed atheist
are displayed prominently on thier shelves. Ask your Pastor to think and pray
and check Scripture before he spouts the party line from the pulpit.
Is MrMandolin the only one not sleeping in this group. Not one other person
responded "Hey MY God is life-affirming" or "God made the earth and the
inhabitants, He certainly doesn't want us to abuse it"
Thank You MrMandolin,
Mike
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Login for Mike Grello <gre...@azure.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> wrote:
>something we need to do, stand up and be counted. I am a Christian and I
>oppose animal testing, I oppose gutting the clean air and water acts.
Ah.. let's forget about dicussing long lists and keep it simple. So, I'll focus
on "animal testing" and ask how your being a christian is realted, and whether
you mean testing for all purposes. In aprticular, aren't there cases where the
testing would otherwise have to be done on humans, and if so, are you therefore
in favour of that? (Playing devil's advocate, I guess, but rather than a long
list I'd see a reason or two why you opposed a thing or two.)
>call your local Christian book store and ask why the books of an avowed
>atheist are displayed prominently on thier shelves.
I beg your pardon? Why wouldn't they be? (I personally oppose the very notion
of a "christian book store" but that's another problem.)
>Is MrMandolin the only one not sleeping in this group. Not one other person
>responded "Hey MY God is life-affirming" or "God made the earth and the
>inhabitants, He certainly doesn't want us to abuse it"
Define "abuse" functionally. Explain how something is "life-affriming" or how
it is not.
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Login for Mike Grello
[fascinating relativistic stuff deleted]
I too have had a first year course in philosophy, but it has been so long ago
that I no longer find it fascinating. I think that if MrMandolin and myself,
who are demonstratively less intellectual than you (after all we both have AOL
accounts :) ) can understand this thread so can you. I now return you to the
rest of us, who are stupid enough to just live our lives.
(well, that's how I would like to leave it, but let's try this)
Animal testing - we are discussing proctor and gamble, they are particularly
brutal in thier animal testing, and it is not to cure the worlds deseases but
to create cosmetics. As for testing on humans, there are people, right now,
who are desperately ill, who would jump at the chance to get some experimental
drugs that are being held up in animal testing. What does this have to do with
being a Christian? Well, in Genesis, God made man responsible, accoutable for
the earth and it's inhabitants, and Jesus told a parable about the wicked
servant who was put in charge of the other servants and beat and abused them,
and the penalty therefore. Same gose for the other "green" issues.
Christian book stores - since your opposition is "another problem", let's
ignore it. Carrying an item in a Christian bookstore implies that it is
good or instructive for the Christians that patronize that establishment.
A book is assumed to be written with a Christian world view, and here lies
the problem. Rabid conservativism is being peddled as Christian doctrine,
and nothing could be further from the truth. You almost make an interesting
point here, because I would much less object to a book written by Ghandi
than one written by Limbaugh displayed on the shelves of my local Christian
book store (I used to think that the problem with Christianity is that it does
not have a story of Sidharta travelling and discovering poverty and illness,
I now realise that, it indeed has a story of God looking down on the poverty
and illness of mankind and leaving His throne to minister amongst us.).
What is life affirming - You may have to decide this for your self, as it is
somewhat personal. I would direct you to the words of Christ, but they didn't
seem to help the Christian Coalition figure things out. Perhaps the character
of Jesus, his giving, healing, the goats and lambs, Lazarus. But simply,
life affirming is promoting health, wellness, wholeness. Preserving a person's
dignity, keeping the air and water clean so all creatures can thrive on them.
Not vivisecting innocent creatures so that our hair can "really shine".
Abuse? - dumping pollutants in the water, fouling the air, using the earth as
an amusement park instead of a garden. God told Adam "you broke it, you fix it" we are falling behind.
Perhaps if you took a break, read some childrens books, or even comics. Just a
thought ;)
Philip C. Cavanagh
In a previous article, XZV...@prodigy.com (Fredric Mckinney) says:
>These rumors about P&G *are* absolute garbage. Personally, I don't
>believe one word of it. To me, it's sounds like nothing but someone with
>some kind of personal vendetta against P&G. Besides, if this were really
>true, I think I would have seen it in American Family Association's
>monthly Journal, and this bunk about P&G being satanic has not once
>appeared in there. I think if it were going on, AFA would probably call
>for a boycott. I don't know who started this, but I would like to see it
>stopped immediately.
So I take it you haven't heard about the new logo Prodigy is using huh?
Seems to be a common Occult symbol. The quote from the Internet World
clip says: "Is it our imagination, or is Prodigy's new logo a common
occult symbol? And we thought Proctor & Gamble had problems." Oh BTW:
It's a Pentagram (right-side up, mind you) with a circle around it ;)
>Now, for those of you who *are* bent on picking on a major corporation,
>Unilever has been a major sponsor of filthy and violent programming, such
>as NYPD Blue and the sleaze-driven daytime talk shows. Unilever has
>refused to knock it off, and so AFA called for a boycott of Unilever
>starting with the May issue of the AFA Journal. Their complete products
>are listed in each issue published since last may. If you wanna pick on
>someone, pick on Unilever and stop spreading false rumors about Procter
>and Gamble. Sheeez!!!
You know, after I moved into my own apartment, I decided against getting
cable television. There's never anything good on ('cept for the
educational television programs and of course the religious programming)
and it ends up rotting your mind.
May I suggest reading a good book instead of sitting in front of the TV
all day???
I'll be glad when there is no such thing as Cable TV, I'd rather be
watching video movies so I can select what I program my subconscious
with. ;)
--
*------------------------------* In novels, everything is true except the
| Philip C. Cavanagh | names and dates. In history nothing is
| ui...@freenet.victoria.bc.ca | true but the names and dates.
*------------------------------* -=- Zangwill -=-
ISAO BERED
grello@azure. ... writes:
>God told Adam "you broke it, you fix it" we are falling behind.
hmmmmm... i must have missed that part. i was under the impression that
man was incapable of fixing "it" (spiritually or physically).
abundant peace and love!
***********************************************************
"then the lord answered job out of the whirlwind and said, 'who is this
that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?'..."
and i am isao bered
************************************************************
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
jtig...@artemis.wi.leidenuniv.nl (Jeroen J-W Tiggelman) writes:
>[fascinating relativistic stuff deleted]
None of what I wrote was relativistic. Relativating, probably. Relational,
yes. Relativistic, no. Try "contextual".
>I too have had a first year course in philosophy,
Uhm... (1) I don't, (2) you wouldn't say so from the above comment, and the
lack of answer.
> but it has been so long ago
>that I no longer find it fascinating.
In fact, you seem to really only be here showing that you are "above" me.
Unfortunately I don't care whether you call "Lord, Lord" or anything -- if
you want to convince me of your superior understanding, you will _have_ to
say something intelligently, I'm afraid.
> I think that if MrMandolin and myself,
>who are demonstratively less intellectual than you (after all we both have AOL
>accounts :) ) can understand this thread so can you. I now return you to the
>rest of us, who are stupid enough to just live our lives.
Thanks a lot for the insult that I am only stirring up trouble while
dishonestly pretending to worry over something. It's a lie, too, but I guess
that's not provable..
>(well, that's how I would like to leave it, but let's try this)
Well, that's how I answer that approach.
>Animal testing - we are discussing proctor and gamble, they are particularly
>brutal in thier animal testing, and it is not to cure the worlds deseases but
>to create cosmetics.
There was mention of Proctor and Gamble in this thread, but the animal testing
was in one breath with some other things about acts and such I doubt have
anything to do with them??
But I take it that you think that cosmetics aren't worth the animal suffering,
and I go with that.
> As for testing on humans, there are people, right now,
>who are desperately ill, who would jump at the chance to get some experimental
>drugs that are being held up in animal testing.
This is to my mind a rather evasive answer.
> What does this have to do
>with being a Christian? Well, in Genesis, God made man responsible,
>accountable for the earth and its inhabitants, [..]
Okay.
>Christian book stores - since your opposition is "another problem", let's
>ignore it. Carrying an item in a Christian bookstore implies that it is
>good or instructive for the Christians that patronize that establishment.
Well, in that case it is in fact the same problem. It is nonsensical that
this could be determined, or would even be the same for all those who come
there.
>A book is assumed to be written with a Christian world view,
?? By whom, when??
> and here lies
>the problem. Rabid conservativism is being peddled as Christian doctrine,
>and nothing could be further from the truth. You almost make an interesting
^^^^^^
Good that you do not actually have to compliment me. :)
>point here, because I would much less object to a book written by Ghandi
>than one written by Limbaugh displayed on the shelves of my local Christian
>book store [...]
I somehow missed the answer to why the avowed atheist's book should not be
on the shelves. Instead you are telling me that you don't want anything else
passed for christian doctrine. I suppose then, that christians that go to
christian bookstores can't tell an atheist's point of view from a christian
one and therefore would mistake the atheist's ideas for sound doctine or
something???
>What is life affirming - You may have to decide this for your self, as it is
>somewhat personal.
That was in fact my main problem with most of what you said: it did not seem to
be saying much definite. Or, where definite, certainly not for a clear reason.
> I would direct you to the words of Christ, but they didn't
>seem to help the Christian Coalition figure things out. Perhaps the character
>of Jesus, his giving, healing, the goats and lambs, Lazarus. But simply,
>life affirming is promoting health, wellness, wholeness.
I am all with you there.. though i really don't see why you'd call it "life
affirming".. a strange word.. It seems to be mostly a word that indicates
"that which is good" (thus assuming that you know, and therefore defining
absolutely nothing). ;)
> Preserving a
>person's dignity, keeping the air and water clean so all creatures can thrive
>on them. Not vivisecting innocent creatures so that our hair can "really
>"shine". Abuse? - dumping pollutants in the water, fouling the air, using the
>earth as an amusement park instead of a garden. God told Adam "you broke it,
I still think you put everything as if it is simple, while it may be basically
simple, but...
>Perhaps if you took a break, read some childrens books, or even comics. Just a
>thought ;)
A good thought. :) Not that I am going to take a break or anything, but what
annoyed me in your previous post (and this one for a part) was the tone. This
kind of advice.. ;) ;)
Meanwhile, I think your vision is muuuch clearer now and much more convincing.
:)
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
John Augustine
: >Now, for those of you who *are* bent on picking on a major corporation,
<snip>
: >as NYPD Blue and the sleaze-driven daytime talk shows.
: You know, after I moved into my own apartment, I decided against getting
: cable television.
NYPD Blue and most sleazy talk shows are network, not cable :)
: There's never anything good on ('cept for the
: educational television programs and of course the religious programming)
: and it ends up rotting your mind.
I find most of the religious channels to be mind rotting drivel as well,
but maybe that's just me.
: I'll be glad when there is no such thing as Cable TV
I don't think cable is the problem. :)
peace,
Cat
:+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+:
"Christ neither endured the death of John, who was beheaded, nor was He
sawn asunder, like Isaiah: even in death He preserved His body whole and
undivided, so that there should be no excuse hereafter for those who
would divide the Church." -- St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione Verbi Dei
:+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+::+:
Login for Mike Grello
|>
|> In fact, you seem to really only be here showing that you are "above" me.
|> Unfortunately I don't care whether you call "Lord, Lord" or anything -- if
|> you want to convince me of your superior understanding, you will _have_ to
|> say something intelligently, I'm afraid.
Sorry if it appears that way. The opposite is actually true. I think too much
is put int "superior" anything, and the question is "what is good?"
|>
|> Thanks a lot for the insult that I am only stirring up trouble while
|> dishonestly pretending to worry over something. It's a lie, too, but I guess
|> that's not provable..
Sorry is inadequate for this offense. I was not accusing you of anything,
merely stating that we can trip over our own intellect while searching for
truth.
|>
|>
|> >Animal testing - we are discussing proctor and gamble, they are particularly
|> >brutal in thier animal testing, and it is not to cure the worlds deseases but
|> >to create cosmetics.
|>
|> There was mention of Proctor and Gamble in this thread, but the animal testing
|> was in one breath with some other things about acts and such I doubt have
|> anything to do with them??
|>
|> But I take it that you think that cosmetics aren't worth the animal suffering,
|> and I go with that.
|>
|> > As for testing on humans, there are people, right now,
|> >who are desperately ill, who would jump at the chance to get some experimental
|> >drugs that are being held up in animal testing.
|>
|> This is to my mind a rather evasive answer.
Being a idealist is a nice thing, am I willing to condemn people to death for
my convictions? A better question may be, are we real sure that the answers
don't already lie in nature. Let's ask the native Americans and other
"primative" people to share their wisdom with us, maybe we can answer our
questions by cooperating with nature instead of torturing it. This is
perhaps equally evasive, but I hope not.
|>
|> > What does this have to do
|> >with being a Christian? Well, in Genesis, God made man responsible,
|> >accountable for the earth and its inhabitants, [..]
|>
|> Okay.
|>
|> >Christian book stores - since your opposition is "another problem", let's
|> >ignore it. Carrying an item in a Christian bookstore implies that it is
|> >good or instructive for the Christians that patronize that establishment.
|>
|> Well, in that case it is in fact the same problem. It is nonsensical that
|> this could be determined, or would even be the same for all those who come
|> there.
|>
|> >A book is assumed to be written with a Christian world view,
|>
|> ?? By whom, when??
Answered below?
|>
|> > and here lies
|> >the problem. Rabid conservativism is being peddled as Christian doctrine,
|> >and nothing could be further from the truth. You almost make an interesting
|> ^^^^^^
|> Good that you do not actually have to compliment me. :)
You have made many excellent points, I suspect that you did not mean to lead
me to this one however.
|>
|> >point here, because I would much less object to a book written by Ghandi
|> >than one written by Limbaugh displayed on the shelves of my local Christian
|> >book store [...]
|>
|> I somehow missed the answer to why the avowed atheist's book should not be
|> on the shelves.
You won't find Abby Hoffmans books, or Zen and the Art of MotorCycle Maintenance,
(I don't know, or care what the authors believe, I am making a point about agendas)
or the Electric KoolAid Acid Test, or Jonathan Livingston Seagull, or the observation
that anybody is OK on those shelves, and you would be hard pressed to find books by
Chuck Smith or Christian underground comics, and in half can't even find posters.
But the perception is if it is conservative it is holy, this is what I decry. I
may even share, to an extent, your problem with segregating book stores.
|>Instead you are telling me that you don't want anything else
|> passed for christian doctrine. I suppose then, that christians that go to
|> christian bookstores can't tell an atheist's point of view from a christian
|> one and therefore would mistake the atheist's ideas for sound doctine or
|> something???
|>
YES!!! Where do YOU think the religious right came from? Christian Coalition?
How about Conservative Coalition Using the Bible as an Excuse For Hatred.
I should go further and say that I would welcome the writings of Ghandi.
|> >What is life affirming - You may have to decide this for your self, as it is
|> >somewhat personal.
|>
|> That was in fact my main problem with most of what you said: it did not seem to
|> be saying much definite. Or, where definite, certainly not for a clear reason.
|>
Well, everybody can't do everything. You have to find something important and
stand for it.
|> > I would direct you to the words of Christ, but they didn't
|> >seem to help the Christian Coalition figure things out. Perhaps the character
|> >of Jesus, his giving, healing, the goats and lambs, Lazarus. But simply,
|> >life affirming is promoting health, wellness, wholeness.
|>
|> I am all with you there.. though i really don't see why you'd call it "life
|> affirming".. a strange word.. It seems to be mostly a word that indicates
|> "that which is good" (thus assuming that you know, and therefore defining
|> absolutely nothing). ;)
It is a buzz word, I guess. And it sound pretty. And it has specifically been
used by non Christians as something they think Christians are not.
|>
|> > Preserving a
|> >person's dignity, keeping the air and water clean so all creatures can thrive
|> >on them. Not vivisecting innocent creatures so that our hair can "really
|> >"shine". Abuse? - dumping pollutants in the water, fouling the air, using the
|> >earth as an amusement park instead of a garden. God told Adam "you broke it,
|>
|> I still think you put everything as if it is simple, while it may be basically
|> simple, but...
even if we look upon our behavior as evil but neccessary, we may be encouraged to
tune it down. if we look at it as exceedingly evil, perhaps we will find other
options.
|>
|> >Perhaps if you took a break, read some childrens books, or even comics. Just a
|> >thought ;)
|>
|> A good thought. :) Not that I am going to take a break or anything, but what
|> annoyed me in your previous post (and this one for a part) was the tone. This
|> kind of advice.. ;) ;)
You should take this at face value, and perhaps not personally. I have what is
considered a very intellectual job, and I am (as you may have noticed) consumed
by social issues, but because relaxation is good, I do frivolous things. Joy,
what a beautiful word!
|>
|> Meanwhile, I think your vision is muuuch clearer now and much more convincing.
|> :)
well, thank you for helping me express myself better.
|>
|> --
|> --Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
|> Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL
Remember, Joy!
Mike
Jeroen J-W Tiggelman
Login for Mike Grello <gre...@azure.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> wrote:
>|> you want to convince me of your superior understanding, you will _have_ to
>|> say something intelligently, I'm afraid.
>much is put int "superior" anything, and the question is "what is good?"
Right.
>|> Thanks a lot for the insult that I am only stirring up trouble while
>|> dishonestly pretending to worry over something. [..]
>Sorry is inadequate for this offense. I was not accusing you of anything,
>merely stating that we can trip over our own intellect while searching for
>truth.
Alright, I suppose there was an interpretational gap here..
[...]
>|> > As for testing on humans, there are people, right
>|> >now, who are desperately ill, who would jump at the chance to get some
>|> >experimental drugs that are being held up in animal testing.
>|> This is to my mind a rather evasive answer.
>
>Being a idealist is a nice thing, am I willing to condemn people to death for
>my convictions? A better question may be, are we real sure that the answers
>don't already lie in nature. Let's ask the native Americans and other
>"primative" people to share their wisdom with us, maybe we can answer our
>questions by cooperating with nature instead of torturing it. This is
>perhaps equally evasive, but I hope not.
While it is not equally evasive, I am afraid it does not really answer the
original question either (not that there was an explicit question to this
part).
As a matter of fact, I would never take an ideal as more important than
reality. But I think that "am I willing to condemn people to death for my
"convictions" does not quite match the animal testing issue here. You might
argue whether the procedure didn't take too long, but would you really want
everything to be designed as an "ideal" and immediately tested on people? Of
course, from what you write after, it almost seems like you are not that wild
about medicines at all, but that's yet quite a different issue. I do believe
that we can find the answers from "nature" (though I don't see this as
opposed to civilization or anything, so there's probably no real match here).
I am all for cooperation; nature is not a person, though. (Are we talking
about polution again here?)
>|> >Christian book stores - since your opposition is "another problem", let's
>|> >ignore it. Carrying an item in a Christian bookstore implies that it is
>|> >good or instructive for the Christians that patronize that establishment.
>|> >A book is assumed to be written with a Christian world view,
>|> ?? By whom, when??
>Answered below?
Perhaps. I gather that _there are people_ to whom the carrying of an item in a
"Christian" bookstore implies that it is good or instructive for "christians"
(including them). The profound error to me seems to be that they assume that
rather what the store happens to actually carry. But I understand that this
is a concern over ideals, and that since the real situation is so, you would
argue that the store took care. However, I think it is pretty much infeasible
to really oversee this, and moreover that by _not_ carrying atheist stuff, but
only what was thought to be profitable even when read with no understanding
would reinforce the gravest mistake.
>|> > and here lies
>|> >the problem. Rabid conservativism is being peddled as Christian doctrine,
>|> >and nothing could be further from the truth. You almost make an
>|> Good that you do not actually have to compliment me. :)
>You have made many excellent points, I suspect that you did not mean to lead
>me to this one however.
Perhaps not specifically here, but these points are realted, and I definitely
try to be vocal about this. ;)
>|> I somehow missed the answer to why the avowed atheist's book should not be
>|> on the shelves.
>You won't find Abby Hoffmans books, [..]
> or Jonathan Livingston Seagull, or the observation
>that anybody is OK on those shelves, and you would be hard pressed to find
>books by Chuck Smith or Christian underground comics, [..]
So.. "mismatch"?
>But the perception is if it is conservative it is holy, this is what I decry.
>I may even share, to an extent, your problem with segregating book stores.
Ah yeah, ideally people weren't trying to program themselves with "holy" stuff,
but would understand what was holy.. solving the problem..
>|>Instead you are telling me that you don't want anything else
>|> passed for christian doctrine. I suppose then, that christians that go to
>|> christian bookstores can't tell an atheist's point of view from a christian
>|> one and therefore would mistake the atheist's ideas for sound doctine or
>|> something???
>YES!!! Where do YOU think the religious right came from? Christian Coalition?
>How about Conservative Coalition Using the Bible as an Excuse For Hatred.
Yes, but then I doubt whether the atheist's teachings were really worse than
what was passed of for christian otherwise. ;) In fact, the mindless taking in
of this stuff might reveal them as on dangerous ground, which might be
helpful... Hmmm..
>I should go further and say that I would welcome the writings of Ghandi.
:-) So then, you do not _really_ worry to much about the authors' professions
as per faith? ;) Lemme rephrase that: the claims aren't that important, as long
as their agendas are compatible? ;)
["life affirming"]
>It is a buzz word, I guess. And it sound pretty. And it has specifically
>been used by non Christians as something they think Christians are not.
I can't think that's a reason to copy the sillyness. ;-)
>even if we look upon our behavior as evil but neccessary, we may be encouraged
>to tune it down. if we look at it as exceedingly evil, perhaps we will find
>other options.
I see what you mean. I want to say I was not saying that it would be
"necessary", just that there might be side-effect to the other apparent
options. And I am all for looking for new ones, but you can't adopt a policy
you haven't thought of yet. ;)
>|> A good thought. :) Not that I am going to take a break or anything, but
>|> what annoyed me in your previous post (and this one for a part) was the
>|> tone. This kind of advice.. ;) ;)
>You should take this at face value, and perhaps not personally. I have what
>is considered a very intellectual job, and I am (as you may have noticed)
>consumed by social issues, but because relaxation is good, I do frivolous
>things. Joy, what a beautiful word!
It is. And I said that this kind advice while not directly related to the issue
at hand, had a much better effect on my mood than that MrMandolin was the only
other poster who had his eyes open (or something to that effect) preceded and
followed by some not very descriptive terms. :) You know, when I am finished
with what I am busy on these weeks, I intend to write quite some poetry. Sounds
like a good idea? ;)
>Remember, Joy!
Joy!
>Mike
--
--Jeroen------------------------------------------------------
Tigg...@StPC.WI.LeidenUniv.NL JTig...@WI.LeidenUniv.NL