Newsboys Fakin It
v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
think that it is sad that people are ripping them apart because they may or
may not be doing a live show. I saw them last winter when they came to
Buffalo and I know that they performed live and what the Boys were playing
was what I saw. Some people might take this fact into consideration that
the Boys are on the road and doing performance about every other night and
that can wear a person down. And on top of that they will be head lining
a tour with AA in Jan. If they are or aren't performing live at least they
are out there spreading the Word of God through good music and to someone
who may hear them for the first time and not be a christian it could point
them in the right direction and into the light of Christ. I will be seeing
the Newsboys and SCC on 14th in BFLO whether or not they perform a live set
or not I am going to hear some good christian music and to praise God for it
In Christ
Matt DIngle " It's Good To Be Alive '
v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu -Geoff Moore-
Chris Lesher
There is no doubt that they spread the gospel, but like someone said, they
really shouldn't try to hoodwink the people there. It's deception, in my
opinion. Maybe I'm a little unfair, but I hold Christian musicians to a
higher standard than secular musicians. I expect them to be the best, and
playing along with tracks, or with drum machines, or any sort of non-live
accompaniment seems cheap to me. Yes...tours are long and strenuous...they
might need a rest...but if you pay attention to SCC's tour schedule, you'll
see that he has a concert almost every night this month. That's tiring...
but he still does it without DAT accompaniment or whatever. I think it
all boils down to ability.
I like a lot of the Newsboys stuff, but it seems odd that they
need soundtracks to "keep them together." Yes, they're getting the
message out, yes they're dedicated, but again, it just seems like they're
lying to their audience.
Chris Lesher
cle...@quapaw.astate.edu
cle...@toltec.astate.edu
Andy Whitman
<v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>I have been reading all about the Newsboys and them fakin their set and I
>think that it is sad that people are ripping them apart because they may or
>may not be doing a live show. I saw them last winter when they came to
>Buffalo and I know that they performed live and what the Boys were playing
>was what I saw. Some people might take this fact into consideration that
>the Boys are on the road and doing performance about every other night and
>that can wear a person down.
(Adopts best Tweedy Bird voice): Ah, the poh widdle wock 'n wollers.
Look, if they can't hack it live then they shouldn't go out on the road.
Wouldn't want them to get tired or anything. See, that's what rock
'n roll bands *do* -- they play music. If they just play tapes
and move around on stage then we call them The Solid Gold Dancers.
>And on top of that they will be head lining
>a tour with AA in Jan. If they are or aren't performing live at least they
>are out there spreading the Word of God through good music and to someone
>who may hear them for the first time and not be a christian it could point
>them in the right direction and into the light of Christ.
Or most likely it will insult the intelligence of those who paid good
money thinking they were going to a concert and instead discovered
that they were attending a Solid Gold Dancers reunion. The Word of
God is certainly honored in that case, eh? Better witnessing
through deception. Yeah, that's it.
>I will be seeing
>the Newsboys and SCC on 14th in BFLO whether or not they perform a live set
>or not I am going to hear some good christian music and to praise God for it
Whatever. I think I'll pass. I know I'll pass.
>In Christ
>Matt DIngle " It's Good To Be Alive '
>v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu -Geoff Moore-
Andy Whitman
AT&T Network Systems
Columbus, Ohio
a...@ncms1.cb.att.com
Chris Lesher
friend of his) saw Phil Keaggy in concert with the new Glass Harp-type band.
Phil broke a string in the middle of a song and did some weird improv
around it, and his band had no idea what he was doing and the song kind of
lumbered along for a little bit before the band could regain its compusure.
He said the band, and especially the audience, enjoyed this little bit of fun.
Exciting live things like that don't happen when everything is programmed.
Chris Lesher
cle...@quapaw.astate.edu
cle...@toltec.astate.edu
Douglas C Pearson
>cris...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu writes:
>>I love the Newsboys' message and enthusiasm. My family and I are ging to
>>their concert w/ SCC on Nov. 19 in the D.C. area and we will not be staring
>>at the players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer
>>our praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
>I'm glad you're all spiritual and all, and won't be watching what they
>are playing. However, some of the more musically-oriented among us
>take issue that they may be paying $15 or more to see a band play live,
>and possibly end up listening to the CD on a really big stereo.
>Personally, I tend to devote at least part of my attention to what's
>going on on-stage. I can stay home and praise Jesus without spending
>$15 and having to put up with a band jumping around on stage while
>I'm doing it :-)
my point exactly, JR.
what really ticks me off about they "why are you guys pickin' on the newsboys,
they're doing what they do for Jesus" posts is the usual end line that it's so
good to go to a concert and offer your praises to Jesus. there is a place we
offer our praises to Jesus, folks. it's called church. you can even get in
there free, too, and you don't have to watch some poser bounce around the stage
and toss his shirt into the crowd and all that in the name of praising Jesus,
which is about what i got out of the one time i've ever seen the newsboys live.
some rock concert is no substitute for meeting together with people you love
dearly and lifting up the Lord's name with them. and it really steams me to
have anybody even suggest that it might be.
yet another example of everything that's wrong with the Christian subculture in
the united states of america...
chuck
--
"clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- married 1 year!
take my fist and hold it in Your hand take my rage and bury my pain prayerchain
Roger H. Kim
cle...@quapaw.astate.edu (Chris Lesher) wrote:
> This all reminds me of something a friend of mine told me...he (or a
> friend of his) saw Phil Keaggy in concert with the new Glass Harp-type band.
> Phil broke a string in the middle of a song and did some weird improv
> around it, and his band had no idea what he was doing and the song kind of
> lumbered along for a little bit before the band could regain its compusure.
> He said the band, and especially the audience, enjoyed this little bit of fun.
> Exciting live things like that don't happen when everything is programmed.
I agree...Something similar happened last spring, when Michael W. Smith
was doing his "acoustic" tour at Wheaton. (I forget exactly what the tour
was called.) They were about to start a number when Chris Rodriguez
dropped his pick and had to go searching for it. MWS (and all of his
friends on stage) cracked up laughing. Chris came up and sheepishly said,
"Sorry." They tried another go at it, but MWS started laughing right
before he was supposed to start singing, so they stopped again to catch
their breath. They finally got going on the third try.
I really liked this spontaneity on stage. It brought the audience into
the concert in a much more personal way. We truly felt like we were a
part of the concert, instead of just watching.
Roger Kim
_____________________________________________________________________
Address: 1835 Hinman Ave. #312
Evanston, IL 60201
TEL: (708) 332-6791
E-Mail: roge...@merle.acns.nwu.edu
roge...@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
"But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall soar up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not grow weary;
they shall walk, and not grow faint."
- Isaiah 40:31 -
.---. .-----------
/ \ __ / ------
/ / \( -, -----
////// '~ ( ---
//// / // : ; ---
// / / /) / --
/ //..\\
============UU====UU==============
'//||\\
''`
_____________________________________________________________________
cris...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
dito
I love the Newsboys' message and enthusiasm. My family and I are ging to their
concert w/ SCC on Nov. 19 in the D.C. area and we will not be staring at the
players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer our
praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. My daughter and I will probably
go and see them with AA in the spring also (I do hope that the Newsboys/AA tour
comes to the Balt./Wash. area).
John Cristion
Psalms 34:8 Taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that
trust in Him.
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
[begin quote]
I love the Newsboys' message and enthusiasm. My family and I are ging to their
concert w/ SCC on Nov. 19 in the D.C. area and we will not be staring at the
players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer our
praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
I'm glad you're all spiritual and all, and won't be watching what they
are playing. However, some of the more musically-oriented among us
take issue that they may be paying $15 or more to see a band play live,
and possibly end up listening to the CD on a really big stereo.
Personally, I tend to devote at least part of my attention to what's
going on on-stage. I can stay home and praise Jesus without spending
$15 and having to put up with a band jumping around on stage while
I'm doing it :-)
JRjr
--
'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
Children growing up, old friends growing older
The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
##### vap...@prism.gatech.EDU ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr. ################
Mike Noel
I'd agree. I play the bass guitar and I spend a lot of time at a
concert watching the guitar players. I like to see their technique
and I like to try to figure out how they play certain things or make
certain sounds.
There is also another aspect. When playing an instrument live there
is a certain amount of "energy" involved and this gets transferred
from the musicians to the audience. This is more than just the
musicians jumping around or something. There is something special
about being there as the music is being created, right there!
To look at it from a slightly different perspective for those who are
happy with "fakers" cause they're just there to praise God anyway.
Would you be happy if the worship team in your church lip-synced to a
tape? They could do a great job of fak'n to any of the brand new
praise tapes -- and it would sound better than most in church praise
bands.
_M_
--
v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
the stage. Did you ever think that you were paying $15 to see SCC and not
Newsboys. I know that when the Boys tour they don't charge that much for
tickets when I saw them last year I payed $8 for a ticket. You are also paying
$15 for a ticket because the place SCC is playing has to make a profit out of
it and there are other expenses too. If you are going to be that offended by
whether or not the Boys are using DAT then maybe you should just wait till SCC
tours alone and then go and see him. The important part about the whole tour
is not whether or not the concert is DAT etc. It is opportunity to go and see
a really great show and enjoy yourself and maybe even bring a non-christian
friend along as well not to worry about the Boys are using DAT. Stop being so
nit picky.
In Christ " I will live to tell of the one
Matt of the one who has rescued my
heart "
-Geoff Moore-
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
> I like a lot of the Newsboys stuff, but it seems odd that they
>need soundtracks to "keep them together." Yes, they're getting the
>message out, yes they're dedicated, but again, it just seems like they're
>lying to their audience.
I don't really think they are using DAT to "keep them together" or to
replace actual playing, but rather to fill in the holes in the music
where the album has more stuff than the band can actually play. If you
listen to the drum/percussion sound on any given Newsboys, Code of Ethics,
Jesus Jones (whoever) album, there's not much way that any one guy on
a small set can play all of the jingles and jangles. The DAT is usually
used for stuff like this (and explains the deal with the drums starting
before the drummer). Similarly, multiple guitar tracks are dealt with
the same way. Petra did this a bit on some of the songs from _Wake Up Call_,
maybe "Underneath the Blood," that Bob simply couldn't play all of the
guitar for live. I really have very little problem with this. Every band
can't be a Rush, that produces an amazing amount of sound for three guys.
I'd honestly be very surprised if they were actually pulling a Milli
Vanilli, especially after the comments about doing away with the use of
tracks in concert.
V-X
>concert w/ SCC on Nov. 19 in the D.C. area and we will not be staring at the
>players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer our
>praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
If you want to worship, why deal with parking and high ticket prices to go see
performers? And if you're going to see performers, doesn't it tick you off
that probably you're just going to hear the CD you already own played really
loud while the musicians jump around and pretend they're performing it?
Coming Soon: The World Wide Web Jack Chick Archive!
Send comments/contributions to v...@teleport.com or
dej...@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk.
<a href="mailto:dej...@athmail1.causeway.qub.ac.uk">..</a>
Jeff Burke
questioning their decision to try and fool the fans. There's no question that
people can be touched/inspired/moved by their music because Jesus said His Word would
not return void.
I agree with the previous post that stated "If I'm going to pay $10+ to see an act,
I want to hear some creative twists on the tunes and get a live feel for the music.
---
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeff Burke |"Cause promises are promises..... |
| Mead Data Central | ....and facts are facts!" |
| Dayton, Ohio | |
| (513) 865-6941) | --Steven Curtis Chapman |
| bu...@meaddata.com | |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
IS...@vm.cc.latech.edu
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:44:58 GMT
>Lines: 38
>
>
>In article <CyxHq...@acsu.buffalo.edu>, <v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>
>writes:
>> I have been reading all about the Newsboys and them fakin their set and I
>> think that it is sad that people are ripping them apart because they may or
>> may not be doing a live show. I saw them last winter when they came to
>> Buffalo and I know that they performed live and what the Boys were playing
>> was what I saw. Some people might take this fact into consideration that
>> the Boys are on the road and doing performance about every other night and
>> that can wear a person down. And on top of that they will be head lining
>> a tour with AA in Jan. If they are or aren't performing live at least they
>> are out there spreading the Word of God through good music and to someone
>> who may hear them for the first time and not be a christian it could point
>> them in the right direction and into the light of Christ. I will be seeing
>> the Newsboys and SCC on 14th in BFLO whether or not they perform a live set
>> or not I am going to hear some good christian music and to praise God for it
>>
>> In Christ
>> Matt DIngle " It's Good To Be Alive '
>> v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu -Geoff Moore-
>
thoroughly enjoyed the concert I saw of them, but the fact remains that if they
are selling $15 to $20 dollar tickets for a live show and then giving you a
glorified CD, that is fraud.
If they can't do their show at that level of energy all the time then they
either need to cut back on dates or do some low-energy shows.
Andy Whitman
>I thinks that is nice that you are so musically oriented and are going to watch
>the stage. Did you ever think that you were paying $15 to see SCC and not
>Newsboys. I know that when the Boys tour they don't charge that much for
>tickets when I saw them last year I payed $8 for a ticket. You are also paying
>$15 for a ticket because the place SCC is playing has to make a profit out of
>it and there are other expenses too. If you are going to be that offended by
>whether or not the Boys are using DAT then maybe you should just wait till SCC
>tours alone and then go and see him. The important part about the whole tour
>is not whether or not the concert is DAT etc. It is opportunity to go and see
>a really great show and enjoy yourself and maybe even bring a non-christian
>friend along as well not to worry about the Boys are using DAT. Stop being so
>nit picky.
If The Newsboys simply sang without the musical props then no one would
be complaining. I have no problems theoretically with a vocal group
that uses DAT as accompaniment (it sounds about as exciting as watching
paint dry, but that's just me). But when a band *acts* as if the sound
coming from the speakers actually emanates from the guitars they are
holding instead of from a pre-recorded tape, then I have a problem.
This is known as *lying*. The Bible tends to frown upon it. In that
context, the *last* person I would want to witness this would be
a non-Christian. Please do the Christian faith a favor and encourage
your non-Christian friends to miss this concert.
Just being nit-picky and sticking up for the Ten Commandments, I guess.
>In Christ " I will live to tell of the one
> Matt of the one who has rescued my
> heart "
> -Geoff Moore-
Andy Whitman
jnest...@vnet.ibm.com
>thoroughly enjoyed the concert I saw of them, but the fact remains that if they
>are selling $15 to $20 dollar tickets for a live show and then giving you a
> glorified CD, that is fraud.
>If they can't do their show at that level of energy all the time then they
>either need to cut back on dates or do some low-energy shows.
Or if they are going to do a show with some or all recorded background
then let people know. The arguments here have been "they're deceiving
people by not doing a LIVE show" and "I don't care if it's not live I
still like it" They could please everyone by admitting up front if
they use taped background (as well as how much) and then let the fans
decide if they'd like to go under those circumstances.
********************************************************************
* These opinions are mine only. John Nestoriak *
********************************************************************
ama...@imap2.asu.edu
[deletia]
: my point exactly, JR.
: what really ticks me off about they "why are you guys pickin' on the newsboys,
: they're doing what they do for Jesus" posts is the usual end line that it's so
: good to go to a concert and offer your praises to Jesus. there is a place we
: offer our praises to Jesus, folks. it's called church. you can even get in
: there free, too, and you don't have to watch some poser bounce around the stage
: and toss his shirt into the crowd and all that in the name of praising Jesus,
: which is about what i got out of the one time i've ever seen the newsboys live.
: some rock concert is no substitute for meeting together with people you love
: dearly and lifting up the Lord's name with them. and it really steams me to
: have anybody even suggest that it might be.
: yet another example of everything that's wrong with the Christian subculture in
: the united states of america...
: chuck
: --
: "clueless chuck" aka douglas c pearson jr -- dope...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
: osu biophysics program -- bio113 teaching assistant at large -- married 1 year!
: take my fist and hold it in Your hand take my rage and bury my pain prayerchain
Is it entertaiment or it it ministry? Are they any different? Should
they be? It seems like a lot of the problem is that too often those
things are confused. So we use the language of ministry to validate our
entertainment. Just call it what it is, people.
As for me, I will not go to a concert with tracks and will encourage
anyone who listens not to do so as well.
--
[=======================================================================]
[ David E. Amavisca "Stop me before I subreference again." ]
[ david.a...@asu.edu -Dennis Miller- ]
[ 1...@ef.west.asu.edu Arizona State University West, Phoenix AZ USA ]
[ ic...@asuvm.inre.asu.edu Technopolis Student Computing Center ]
[=======================================================================]
Daniel Temmesfeld
>Subject: Re: Newsboys Fakin It
>From: v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
>Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 02:55:37 GMT
>I thinks that is nice that you are so musically oriented and are going to
>watch the stage. Did you ever think that you were paying $15 to see SCC and
>not Newsboys. I know that when the Boys tour they don't charge that much for
>tickets when I saw them last year I payed $8 for a ticket. You are also paying
>$15 for a ticket because the place SCC is playing has to make a profit out of
>it and there are other expenses too...
...on an on an on...
>Stop being so nit picky.
The issue is not about ticket price. The issue is musical quality and the
whole idea of seeing a band live. Why see a band live if they are not
"live?"
> Matt
Dan
Daniel Temmesfeld
>From: v...@teleport.com (V-X)
>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 23:26:37 +1000
>In article <Cyyn4...@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu> cris...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu writes:
>>My family and I are ging to their
>>concert w/ SCC on Nov. 19 in the D.C. area and we will not be staring at the
>>players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer our
>>praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
A church is where most people offer up praises to the Lord (though not the
only place). I find it hard to believe that someone would go to a rock
concert to worship as the only reason. Sure, that is a good reason to go to a
concert, but you can't say that it's the only reason.
Also, why go to a live concert when it's not "live?" You could play the CD at
high volumes and worship at home for $.02 electrical bill instead of paying
$15 to see jumping around from a DAT-driven concert.
Dan
BTW, I hope you have a good time listening to SCC. At least he plays in
concert...
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>the stage. Did you ever think that you were paying $15 to see SCC and not
>Newsboys.
No way! Man, you've got to be kidding... ;-)
What difference does this make? For the record, I _was_ paying $15 to see the
Newsboys :-) The amount I pay doesn't change the fact that when I go to
a concert, I expect to hear mostly live music. (Notice that I defended
the Newsboys use of DAT in an earlier post-I understand that sometimes
it's necessary for certain percussion or keyboard tracks.)
>I know that when the Boys tour they don't charge that much for
>tickets when I saw them last year I payed $8 for a ticket. You are also paying
>$15 for a ticket because the place SCC is playing has to make a profit out of
>it and there are other expenses too.
Thanks for the economics lesson. Like I said, the amount I paid for the
ticket has absolutely no bearing on what I'm saying. If I go to a concert,
I want to hear live music. (Again, note: I'm not convinced that the
Newsboys show made all that much use of DAT. When I saw the Newsboys
with SCC (twice), I was in no way offended by the use they made of DAT.
This discussion has moved from a discussion of the Newsboys use of DAT
to a discussion of the general principles of DAT and live performing...)
>If you are going to be that offended by
>whether or not the Boys are using DAT then maybe you should just wait till SCC
>tours alone and then go and see him.
Sorry, but I probably wouldn't have gone to see SCC if the Newsboys weren't
playing with him. They were my reason for attending.
>The important part about the whole tour
>is not whether or not the concert is DAT etc. It is opportunity to go and see
>a really great show and enjoy yourself and maybe even bring a non-christian
>friend along as well not to worry about the Boys are using DAT. Stop being so
>nit picky.
I enjoyed the show, though the energy level could have been better (it seemed
to me that the Newsboys toned things down for the SCC crowd). The DAT issue
never crossed my mind until somebody else mentioned it here. Some people
have accused the Newsboys of pulling a Milli Vanilli, but I disagree. I
contend that they are using DAT to legitimately fill in layers of percussion
and keyboard.
IF they, or any other band, WERE pulling a Milli Vanilli, whether or not
I paid for the ticket, I would be ticked off. I don't find it nit-picky
to expect a live concert to be (more or less) live. If I wanted to listen
to a CD really loud, I'd've stayed home.
ama...@imap2.asu.edu
[deletia grande]
: To look at it from a slightly different perspective for those who are
: happy with "fakers" cause they're just there to praise God anyway.
: Would you be happy if the worship team in your church lip-synced to a
: tape? They could do a great job of fak'n to any of the brand new
: praise tapes -- and it would sound better than most in church praise
: bands.
Being a member of a worship team, I think that a lot of people would be
happy to go with prerecorded tracks. Kind of like holy karaoke. Real
musicians make mistakes and aren't predictable, but that's half the fun
of it. --
Rustie Hill
Just my opinion here, but whoever staarted this whole thing about
the Newsboys said something about not trying to slam them, but
obviously that's what this is turning into. I'm going to the BFLO
'Boys/SCC concert in 5 days, and happen to be a new, but huge
fan of the Boys. I love their music, their energy, their
style, and I already paid for the ticket. I seriously don't
care if ALL of their music is prerecorded..if they're singing
it then that's enough for me!
You all say that you don't want to pay the cost of the ticket
to see them jump around doing the "Milli Vanilli thing". Well
fine, if that's the way you want to be, if it totally
hurts you that they're maybe not a completely live act, then don't
buy the ticket! But don't start slamming them or anyone who
wants to go to the show and enjoy it, regardless of any
prerecorded stuff. It's enough for me to know that their
effort is good and for the Lord, but if you don't like them
or what huge errors you think they're making musically, then
go see someone else perform. If you think you can do better,
then you get up there and try. I'm a big enough 'Boys fan
that I don't care if their music sounds just like the CD,
I love their voices, their lyrics, their tunes and everything.
I go to concerts to enjoy the performance, and *I* pay the
ticket. If I don't enjoy it, it's not the end of the
world. It's only about $20. But I don't go and see them
"faking it" or just generally not doing what I'd
expected, and get all upset and complain about it.
I saw them perform at Kingdom Bound '94, and I had an
excellent time. Thousands of people there, enjoying the
awesome performance. I didn't see a whole crowd of
protesters get up and leave because they felt they were
gypped. As a matter of fact, I don't think I saw anyone
wander away from the concert.
Not trying to start anything here.. I just thought I'd
stick up for one of my fave groups while it seems
hardly anyone else is. (HI MATT!!! :)
Cheyenne
8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8
*8 Cheyenne Lucille Hill // ch...@gate.net 8*
8*---------------------------------------------------------------------*8
*8 "Oi, boy, what are ya on? We'd try to help 8* Song of Songs 3:5 8*
8* you but you're too far gone, first we *8 John 3:15 *8
*8 thought you'd be rejectin us, now we're 8*---------------------8*
8* scared you'll start infectin us, Oi, boy, *8 "Somebody Love Me" *8
*8 come again, someday soon it'll all sink 8* by Smitty :) 8*
8* in as all your efforts to inspire us *8---------------------*8
*8 spread like some computer virus..." 8* "I wanna tell the 8*
8* -Newsboys - OI! *8 whole world what *8
*8----------------------------------------------8* I'm living for!" 8*
8* *8 -Testify *8
.
Paul Race
Missed the beginning of this thread, but has anybody mentioned that a big part
of most "alternative" sounds includes sampled sounds and electronic
instruments playing in sync with the live musicians? Yes, a person with a
sampler, midi setup, and split-second timing can do it without taking over the
entire performance and making it sound like a band-playing-along-with-a-tape.
But life on the road being what it is, a lot of those goofy voice clips, etc.,
are more likely to happen where they're supposed to if the band IS playing
along with a MIDI sequence, DAT, or even a custom CD they have made up just
for the tour. Now if the guitar player isn't really playing the leads and the
lead singer is really lip-syncing - yes, that's fraud, when you've paid to
hear a live performance. But you have to face the fact that in alternative,
techno-pop, or a lot of other kinds of music, a good percentage of the sound
is actually coming from synths or samplers or DATs and not from the band at
all.
Or did you think that Michael W. Smith was really throwing his voice on
"WATCHYERSIGN"?
SCC doesn't do alternative music, so there's no need for syncing audio clips,
etc. to the live performance.
But even at at that, you might be amazed at how much music you hear in
concerts that wouldn't be there at all if it weren't for some pretty clever
electronic devices, and people qualified to use them.
The key is to integrate the DAT or whatever into the performance seamlessly so
it doesn't distract from the real people onstage singing into the mics and
playing real guitars, etc. If Newsies are having problems with that, I'm
sorry to hear it. But that could be a question of poor implementation or of
not having things set up right the night you heard them, rather than
of a deliberate attempt to defraud.
Just my .29
Paul D. Race - Paul....@DaytonOH.ncr.com
(513) 445-1665 AT&T Global Information Solutions
"I take a very low view of 'climates of opinion.' In his own
subject every man knows that all discoveries are made and all
errors corrected by those who ignore the 'climate of opinion.'"
- C.S. Lewis
v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
>
My point exactly as someone said in another point about this whole NewsBoys
issue why doesn't everbody just drop the issue it not going to kill you. If
you feel that bad about it right to the BOYS and maybe they will tell you why
they are using DAT if at all. ( Hi Cheynne thanks for the support see ya
skating) That's all I have to say about the issue!
Matt Listen to our hearts and hear our
spirits sing.
-Geoff Moore-
The Doctor
: In article <Cz0z0...@acsu.buffalo.edu>, rh...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Rustie Hill) writes:
: > [snippidy do da]
: My point exactly as someone said in another point about this whole NewsBoys
: issue why doesn't everbody just drop the issue it not going to kill you. If
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: you feel that bad about it right to the BOYS and maybe they will tell you why
: they are using DAT if at all. ( Hi Cheynne thanks for the support see ya
: skating) That's all I have to say about the issue!
Hmmmm... It seems that of all the places to discuss things like
whether the 'Boys are fakin' it or the pluses/minuses of DAT-aided concerts,
this is THE PLACE. After all the posts on homosexuality and "who's on
the net?" and other very non-r.m.c.-related posts, it's refreshing (in a
way) to read a nice thread/threads on r.M.C. (M.C. capitalized for emphasis).
It's actually funny to "hear" all the banter about the 'Boys and
the SCC/Boys concert. I'm gonna be seein' them in Worcester on the 17th
and I'm really excited, especially since I've only been to two "real" concerts
in my life: Michael Jackson (waaaay long ago when he was cool) and Petra
(On Fire tour...there's a great story about his one, BTW).
Anyway, I guess we'll see. I'm not sure whether the Newsboys will
be fakin' it or not, but I AM sure that I'm in for quite a treat! :-)
-The Doctor
__ __
/ /\/\ Miller's Corollary: /\/\ \ John 3:16
\_\ / Objects are lost because people look where \ /_/
/_/ \ they are not, instead of where they are. / \_\ --check 'em out--
\_\/\ \ / /\/_/
\_\/ (http://www.amherst.edu/~drsharp/thedoc.html) \/_/ 1 Cor 13:4-7 & 13
Michael Straight
"faking it" is a good or bad thing written by Ted Friedman on the
whole Milli Vanilli controversy. It can be found by pointing your
gopher to riceinfo.rice.edu
Select "Information By Subject Area" and go to "Music"
The article is called "Milli Vanilli and the Scapegoating of the
Inauthentic." I have e-mailed Mr. Friedman and asked his permission
to post the article here, which I will do if he says it's ok.
In the mean time, I recommend this article for anyone interested in this
topic who has gopher access.
Michael Straight "Everybody knows a little bit of something."-King's X /~\/~\
"I started to laugh but a grin took its place"|I'm not a guitar, 88======()==D
I can't get my computer to wreck a nice beach!|but I play one at church\_/\_/
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>I seriously don't
>care if ALL of their music is prerecorded..if they're singing
>it then that's enough for me!
>You all say that you don't want to pay the cost of the ticket
>to see them jump around doing the "Milli Vanilli thing". Well
>fine, if that's the way you want to be, if it totally
>hurts you that they're maybe not a completely live act, then don't
>buy the ticket! But don't start slamming them or anyone who
>wants to go to the show and enjoy it, regardless of any
>prerecorded stuff.
Let me REITERATE this AGAIN. I really like the Newsboys (note spelling
and use of capitalization, everybody...). I went to one of their very
first shows in the U.S., and haven't missed any of their Atlanta area
shows yet. I own all of their albums. I've met John James and Peter
Furler. I LIKE THEIR MUSIC! So when I say I'm not slamming on them,
I mean it.
I don't believe the people who accuse them of pulling a Milli Vanilli.
I understand that they need DAT for their extra keyboards and/or drums.
That's inherent in the style of music they are currently playing. I have
_no_ problem with it. Nobody has slammed anybody for wanting to attend
their shows. _I_ go to see them every time they pass through Atlanta!
>It's enough for me to know that their
>effort is good and for the Lord, but if you don't like them
>or what huge errors you think they're making musically, then
>go see someone else perform. If you think you can do better,
>then you get up there and try. I'm a big enough 'Boys fan
>that I don't care if their music sounds just like the CD,
>I love their voices, their lyrics, their tunes and everything.
IF the Newsboys, or some other band, were trying to pull a fast one and
not really play their music live (again, read my 'lips'-I don't think
the Newsboys are doing this. I said 'IF the Newsboys, or some other band.')
I would take issue with their effort. Whether or not their effort was
'good and for the Lord,' they would be deceiving their fans by presenting
themselves as something that they are not: musicians playing live music.
The Bible tends to frown on deceit. This is true whether the show was
free or if the tickets cost $100. If the band is supposed to be playing
live, I expect them to be playing live. Notice again, for those of you
with short attention spans, that I'm not accusing the Newsboys of deceit.
Is that clear? Thank you.
>I saw them perform at Kingdom Bound '94, and I had an
>excellent time. Thousands of people there, enjoying the
>awesome performance. I didn't see a whole crowd of
>protesters get up and leave because they felt they were
>gypped. As a matter of fact, I don't think I saw anyone
>wander away from the concert.
Lighten up. I'm sorry if these discussions have insulted you. Nobody
is advocating picketing concerts that use DAT, or throwing rocks at
the Newsboys. (This goes for the guy who's a "friend of a friend" of
somebody in the band. Lighten up. It's just a friendly discussion.)
>Not trying to start anything here.. I just thought I'd
>stick up for one of my fave groups while it seems
>hardly anyone else is. (HI MATT!!! :)
If anyone would bother actually READING the things myself and others have
been posting here for a few days, they'd realize that I've been DEFENDING
the Newsboys, albeit while stating that I'd be mad if a band I went to see
did try to pull a Milli Vanilli on me. If I wanted to watch some poser
jump around with a guitar while loud music is playing, I'd stay at home
with my tennis racquet in front of a mirror.
OK, everybody. Flame away. It's not like anybody actually PAYS ATTENTION
to what I'm saying anyway.
Disgusted,
David King
>can't be a Rush, that produces an amazing amount of sound for three guys.
Actually, even Rush does this, but just a little bit. How else did
they have the female bgv's a few years ago?
David King
John Cristion
In article <39tfgl$d...@acmex.gatech.edu>, <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> writes:
> In article <Cz0z0...@acsu.buffalo.edu> rh...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Rustie Hill)
writes:
[lots of deleted text]
>
> Lighten up. I'm sorry if these discussions have insulted you. Nobody
> is advocating picketing concerts that use DAT, or throwing rocks at
> the Newsboys. (This goes for the guy who's a "friend of a friend" of
> somebody in the band. Lighten up. It's just a friendly discussion.)
>
> >Not trying to start anything here.. I just thought I'd
> >stick up for one of my fave groups while it seems
> >hardly anyone else is. (HI MATT!!! :)
>
> If anyone would bother actually READING the things myself and others have
> been posting here for a few days, they'd realize that I've been DEFENDING
> the Newsboys, albeit while stating that I'd be mad if a band I went to see
> did try to pull a Milli Vanilli on me. If I wanted to watch some poser
> jump around with a guitar while loud music is playing, I'd stay at home
> with my tennis racquet in front of a mirror.
>
> OK, everybody. Flame away. It's not like anybody actually PAYS ATTENTION
> to what I'm saying anyway.
Extinguishers out. Enough flaming on this subject.
Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace,
and things wherewith one may edify another.
>
> Disgusted,
> JRjr
>
> --
> 'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
> Children growing up, old friends growing older
> The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
> ##### vap...@prism.gatech.EDU ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr.
################
John Cristion
John 16:33 These things I [Jesus] have spoken unto you, that in me ye might
have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I
have overcome the world.
Frankenstein
>Lighten up. I'm sorry if these discussions have insulted you. Nobody
>is advocating picketing concerts that use DAT, or throwing rocks at
>the Newsboys. (This goes for the guy who's a "friend of a friend" of
>somebody in the band. Lighten up. It's just a friendly discussion.)
I suppose that this was probably directed to me since I didn't
read anything else from "a friend of a friend of somebody in the band",
huh? Well, the article that I flamed had nothing to do with the DAT
subject or picketing Milli Van...I mean the Newsboys, it had to do with a
personal attact on an extremely good friend of mine. (I take it you read
my post "To the group in San Diego that likes to rip Jeff Frankenstein)
I will not sit idley by while someone _attempts_ to destroy the
credibility of a friend, not to mention a professional. Friendly
discussion has tact and thought, not senseless raving.
I do want to thank you though for sticking up for the group
amidst all of this gossip. I say that because no one has real hard fact,
but I will say that I just spoke to Jeff and he assured me that they do
play live...Additional keyboards and drums are _sequenced_ not taped and
all DAT is extra sounds and samples.
Please...let's end it now.
evan
Chris Lesher
Hmmm....I'm almost sorry I started this thread...it's faded in and out of
relevance. Let's not get ugly here, folks.
I think it's probably very possible that they use tracks to fill in
parts...that makes sense to me. I just don't think it's necessary...there
are a lot of musicians with very complex songs that don't need to "fill
in" the parts when they play them in concert.
I was just giving my personal opinion and wanting to see what others
thought. If their concert style doesn't bother you, fine. But I (and
obviously others) don't care for it too much. I like live shows to be
live all the way.
I don't think they're pulling a "Milli Vanilli"...in fact, I
said the vocals were definitely live. I was just a little disappointed in
the show. And I still have doubts whether or not it was all live or
not...what we saw was just too obvious.
A sidenote: I went to an autograph signing party after the
concert at a local bookstore. After briefly talking to SCC, I walked over
to the Newsboys. I was thinking about asking them if they used any taped
accompaniment or whatever. I chickened out, though...all I got out was
"Shine is a pretty cool song." They asked me if I had seen the video, and
I said yes. They responded with "Pretty freaky, huh?" and I moved on.
Go figure...I could have saved a lot of bandwidth with that question! :)
My life wasn't ruined by their show, in fact, I just meant to
start up a friendly conversation about something I was disappointed in.
Too bad it started a flamefest...(kind of fun to read, though!)
Now let's play nice and get along now.
Chris Lesher
cle...@toltec.astate.edu
Cheyenne Hill
everyone else seems to be slightly grumbling about the Newsboys and
them using DAT, I thought I'd just put in my $00.02 worth about it
because, yes I have been reading all this and paying close attention.
But I just thought I'd defend them. Sorry if this upset you.
Number two, someone said 'If the band is supposed to be playing live,
then I expect them to be playing live.' Well, it seems to me (and I say
this in the nicest way possible.) that you all or however many there are
that are upset about this 'Milli Vanilli' thing (and if I hear that group
compared to this situation again I'm going to cry) already KNOW that the
Newsboys don't play completely live. If you all know this, then you
should expect it from a concert, so why do you still go? Don't complain
if you know it and still go and don't like it. I think it's more
interesting to see their energy with the lively music rather than
actually playing, IF that's the way it has to be. It'd beat seeing them
stand there with a real lack of enthusiasm so they can pound out the
correct notes. That's just MHO, though.
Respond if you want. I probably won't read it. But please don't be rude
about it.
*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*
8* Cheyenne Lucille Hill // ch...@gate.net // Little Nell impersonator *8
*8_____________________________________________________________________8*
8* 8* *8
*8 "Oi boy, what're ya on? We'd try to help *8 "Love isn't love til 8*
8* you but you're too far gone, first we 8* you give it away..." *8
*8 thought you'd be rejectin us, now we're *8 -Michael W. Smith 8*
8* scared you'll start infectin us, Oi boy 8*-----------------------*8
*8 come again, someday soon it'll all sink *8 Song of Songs 3:5 8*
8* in, as all your efforts to inspire us 8* John 3:15 *8
*8 spread like some computer virus." *8-----------------------8*
8* -Newsboys "Out Of My System" 8* "somebody love me" *8
*8--------------------------------------------*8 by Michael W. Smith 8*
8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8*8
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>Well, the article that I flamed had nothing to do with the DAT
>subject or picketing Milli Van...I mean the Newsboys, it had to do with a
>personal attact on an extremely good friend of mine.
>credibility of a friend, not to mention a professional. Friendly
>discussion has tact and thought, not senseless raving.
Yeah, I know the article had nothing to do with the DAT issue. I was just
ranting :-) I thought the original comments about Jeff "looking stupid"
or whatever may have been a bit rude in the choice of words, but I'd
hardly call it a personal attack or an attempt to destroy his
credibility. The point could have been made in a more tactful way,
but I think maybe you took it a bit too personally. Maybe you guys
should talk it over in e-mail or something. I don't think there
was any maliciousness involved. It's just really easy to say things
too harshly behind the (relative) anonymity of the internet..
> I do want to thank you though for sticking up for the group
>amidst all of this gossip. I say that because no one has real hard fact,
>but I will say that I just spoke to Jeff and he assured me that they do
>play live...Additional keyboards and drums are _sequenced_ not taped and
>all DAT is extra sounds and samples.
So the actual "extra" music is just sequenced, or programmed, ahead of
time (and most likely by the people that would have played it in concert
if they had 4 hands), right? This is fine by me.
And the DAT is just samples, like the preacher in "Dear Shame" or extra
assorted noises, right? This is fine by me.
If my interpretation of the above is correct, then my original assumption
of how they handled things in the live setting was correct (except that
the "music" is sequenced, not on DAT). This is pretty much standard
stuff. If everybody would read this and get the facts, this discussion
would be over...
kell...@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
>In article <Cyyn4...@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu> cris...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu writes:
>I love the Newsboys' message and enthusiasm. My family and I are ging to their
>players to see if they are using DATs or not. We are going to offer our
>praises to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
>
>I'm glad you're all spiritual and all, and won't be watching what they
>are playing. However, some of the more musically-oriented among us
>take issue that they may be paying $15 or more to see a band play live,
>and possibly end up listening to the CD on a really big stereo.
>
>Personally, I tend to devote at least part of my attention to what's
>going on on-stage. I can stay home and praise Jesus without spending
>$15 and having to put up with a band jumping around on stage while
>I'm doing it :-)
>
>--
>'Summer's going fast, nights growing colder
> Children growing up, old friends growing older
> The innocence slips away...'--Rush, Time Stand Still
>##### vap...@prism.gatech.EDU ######## Jerry B. Ray, Jr. ################
Our tickets were $19. And I have a small stereo.
"It's got 2 b tru" -SCC
Happy happy joy joy
Shawn Keller
St. cloud State Univ.(Minn)
******** Kell...@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu ********
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>Number two, someone said 'If the band is supposed to be playing live,
-this in the nicest way possible.) that you all or however many there are
-that are upset about this 'Milli Vanilli' thing (and if I hear that group
-compared to this situation again I'm going to cry) already KNOW that the
-Newsboys don't play completely live.
Read the articles between myself and the friend of Jeff Frankenstein from
the Newsboys. It explains their use of DAT and sequencing in concert.
To me, no further defense is needed. The guy who started this whole
debate accused them of faking _all_ their drums and guitars. This has
been proven by a contact in the band to be patently false.
>If you all know this, then you
-should expect it from a concert, so why do you still go? Don't complain
-if you know it and still go and don't like it. I think it's more
-interesting to see their energy with the lively music rather than
-actually playing, IF that's the way it has to be. It'd beat seeing them
-stand there with a real lack of enthusiasm so they can pound out the
-correct notes. That's just MHO, though.
LISTEN to me, please. I have NO problem with the way the Newsboys use
DAT for samples and sequencing for extra musical tracks. I'm not
complaining, I'm _defending_ them. My point all along has been two-fold.
First, the way the Newsboys and Code of Ethics use prerecorded stuff is
OK by me. I have no problem with it. Second, if any band did try to
pass off _totally_ prerecorded music or vocals as them actually playing
the music, I would have a problem with it. You should too, unless you
like being deceived. Lots of bands, the Newsboys included, are able to
combine musicianship and showmanship. I don't know of any Christian bands
that are currently trying to fake their music to provide a good show.
But if I did, no matter how enthusiastically they perform, I would still
have a problem with it.
>Respond if you want. I probably won't read it. But please don't be rude
>about it.
Yeah, that's always the best way to encourage intelligent discussion. Ask
for responses that you're not going to read. BTW, honestly, if you think
my posts are rude, you haven't been around here long :-)
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>parts...that makes sense to me. I just don't think it's necessary...there
>are a lot of musicians with very complex songs that don't need to "fill
>in" the parts when they play them in concert.
As noted from a member of the band, by way of someone here on r.m.c.,
they use DAT for samples and sequencing for layered keyboard and
percussion tracks. There is a difference, to me, between complex
songs and songs with more tracks than a limited number of people can
play simultaneously. Petra uses some type of recorded music on a song
or two with two different guitar tracks. Bob can't play both tracks
simultaneously, so to maintain the same sound, this is necessary. The
Newsboys, apparently, do the same thing with their multiple keyboard
and percussion tracks. This is more a result of their limited number of
hands than any lack of musicianship, IMHO. I have no problem with using
the available technology in this way, though I do think it's cool to
watch bands (like Rush, or whoever) who avoid doing so.
>I don't think they're pulling a "Milli Vanilli"...in fact, I
>said the vocals were definitely live. I was just a little disappointed in
>the show. And I still have doubts whether or not it was all live or
>not...what we saw was just too obvious.
Actually, apparently _everything_ was live except for some samples, and
some keyboard and percussion tracks. If they were going to just lip-sync,
why not include the female backing vocals on "Not Ashamed" or "Spirit Thing?"
I guess it was obvious because they didn't feel like they had anything to
hide. Though I never really gave it much thought until recently, it's
fairly obvious to all but the least observant that all of the dings and
jingles coming out of the drum set aren't being produced by a few cymbals
toms and snares :-)
> My life wasn't ruined by their show, in fact, I just meant to
>start up a friendly conversation about something I was disappointed in.
>Too bad it started a flamefest...(kind of fun to read, though!)
A friendly conversation? Here? You've got to be kidding :-) We pride
ourselves on being the newsgroup that takes itself more seriously than
any other newsgroup in existance :-)
I wouldn't call the resulting discussion a flamefest. It's frustrating that
the opposite 'sides' don't seem to be paying much attention to what has been
said before they post, but hopefully the info from Jeff Frankenstein will
clear everything up.
One problem is that the discussion has been three-pronged. First is the
issue of "are the Newsboys pulling a Milli Vanilli." Second is the
issue of the use of DAT in a live setting in the general case. And third
is the perceived insult on Jeff about his stage presence that has
accidentally gotten mixed in with all of the DAT posts. Maybe it's all
settling out now, though.
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>Is it entertaiment or it it ministry? Are they any different? Should
>they be? It seems like a lot of the problem is that too often those
>things are confused. So we use the language of ministry to validate our
>entertainment. Just call it what it is, people.
shows I go to to be entertainment, rather than ministry. If I am
ministered to in the course of the evening, well, that's a bonus.
>As for me, I will not go to a concert with tracks and will encourage
>anyone who listens not to do so as well.
I'm not so sure I agree with this. Does this exclude stuff like Bryan
Duncan or Greg Volz, who generally tour by themselves and have taped
backup music? How about soloists in church services with taped
accompaniment tracks? How about bands that play live and pad their
sound with sequencing or DAT (lots of bands and musicians do this now.
I'm not talking about the Milli Vanilli thing, just adding extra samples,
keyboard, percussion, or vocal tracks, that sort of thing.)? Petra I know
does this (multiple guitar tracks). MWS does it with at least vocal tracks
(at one of his concerts, one of the roadies triggered a sequenced vocal track
while setting up the stage). The Newsboys do it, though not to the extent
that some people believed. Even Steve Taylor does it. Check out the
microcassette recorded intro to "Bannerman" :-)
Peter David THOMPSON
>Being a member of a worship team, I think that a lot of people would be
>happy to go with prerecorded tracks. Kind of like holy karaoke. Real
>musicians make mistakes and aren't predictable, but that's half the fun
>of it. --
I would like to point out that real congregations and "worship leaders"
[1] make mistakes, too. I speak here as soundman and musician [2] to
point out that congregations usually develop their own style of singing
a certain chorus or whatever, based on the mean vocal ability and the
mistakes of the first person to teach it to them. Besides, I'd really hate
to loop that chorus the N times it's sung, play it softer, in slightly
different styles, etc... Plus, of course, playing iwth others is _fun_ [3]
pdt.
[1] I have a non-rational loathing for the phrase.
[2] I give the congregation a chance to practise grace and forgiveness
on a weekly basis, with the aid of a newly acquired 12-string acoustic.
[3] At least until the finger cramps kick in.
Andrew D. Taylor
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR <vap...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote on the topic of
backup tracks:
>
>Even Steve Taylor does it. Check out the
>microcassette recorded intro to "Bannerman" :-)
>
Hey, yeah. I totally forgot about that. For those who don't know the
story, as part of his live show, Steve Taylor pulls a microcassette player
out of his pocket and says that this is the only time he uses backup
tracks in concert. He puts the tape player up to the mic and presses
play. The speakers emit a very tinny sounding intro to Bannerman. Then
the band goes into the song and the microcassette player is taken off
stage. Sorry if I don't do Steve's humour justice, but it's not
hereditary and even if it were, we aren't related to begin with.
Later,
__ __ __
/_/\/\ Andrew D. Taylor /_/\"If they call it a crutch then you /_/\/\
\_\ / af...@freenet.carleton.ca \ \ \ walk with pride." - Steve Taylor \_\ /
/_/ \ \ \ \ /_/ \
\_\/\ \ Mechanical Engineering \ \ \ Song For You - CKCU-FM 93.1 \_\/\ \
\_\/ Carleton University \_\/ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada \_\/
Frankenstein
>Yeah, I know the article had nothing to do with the DAT issue. I was just
>ranting :-) I thought the original comments about Jeff "looking stupid"
>or whatever may have been a bit rude in the choice of words, but I'd
>hardly call it a personal attack or an attempt to destroy his
>credibility. The point could have been made in a more tactful way,
>but I think maybe you took it a bit too personally. Maybe you guys
>should talk it over in e-mail or something. I don't think there
>was any maliciousness involved. It's just really easy to say things
>too harshly behind the (relative) anonymity of the internet..
Yeah...I _did_ take it way too personally. It had nothing to do with me
and so I should have just left it alone, but I was just standing up for a
friend of mine and got too carried away.
>So the actual "extra" music is just sequenced, or programmed, ahead of
>time (and most likely by the people that would have played it in concert
>if they had 4 hands), right? This is fine by me.
Yup! All of the extra music _is_ sequenced by the Newsboys themselves.
If you ever saw a concert with the former Newsboy, Corey Pryor, he did
some amazing things like playing behind his back and stuff. Well it was
so amazing because he never played. All of his keyboard tracks were
recorded on DAT by some guy in Nashville, I think. I'm not even sure he
knew how to play the boards.
>And the DAT is just samples, like the preacher in "Dear Shame" or extra
>assorted noises, right? This is fine by me.
Exactly...And i couldn't have thought of a better sample than that to
give as an example.
>If my interpretation of the above is correct, then my original assumption
>of how they handled things in the live setting was correct (except that
>the "music" is sequenced, not on DAT). This is pretty much standard
>stuff. If everybody would read this and get the facts, this discussion
>would be over...
Finally...someone who's willing to listen to reason. I wish everyone
_would_ read these posts, but it's almost like some people just want to
start rumors or something.
Evan
Michael N Nonemacher
Tracks (W.. by Andrew D. Taylor@freenet
> >microcassette recorded intro to "Bannerman" :-)
> >
>
> Hey, yeah. I totally forgot about that. For those who don't know the
> story, as part of his live show, Steve Taylor pulls a microcassette player
> out of his pocket and says that this is the only time he uses backup
> tracks in concert. He puts the tape player up to the mic and presses
> play. The speakers emit a very tinny sounding intro to Bannerman. Then
> the band goes into the song and the microcassette player is taken off
> stage. Sorry if I don't do Steve's humour justice, but it's not
> hereditary and even if it were, we aren't related to begin with.
In both concerts I've seen, they started Bannerman without tape. The only
tape he used was for the intro to Cash Cow, opening the encores. He said
something to the effect of "We could do something really cheesy & do the
Bannerman intro on tape, but we'd prefer to play everything live." Then,
when Cash Cow started & they all walked out on stage, he said "Well, OK.
Just a little bit of tape..."
------------------------------- Schitzo ------------------------------
"For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the
Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature..." Galatians 5:17 (NIV)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"First came stats pulling habits out of rats,
Now they may need more attention..."
- Steve Taylor, "Jung and the Restless"
---------------------------------------------
Michael N Nonemacher
schi...@cmu.edu
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
[Excellent discussion about the use of DAT, etc. deleted]
Excellent post, Paul. I agree completely. Thank you.
J. Streck
Given this...
>If you ever saw a concert with the former Newsboy, Corey Pryor, he did
>some amazing things like playing behind his back and stuff. Well it was
>so amazing because he never played. All of his keyboard tracks were
>recorded on DAT by some guy in Nashville, I think. I'm not even sure he
>knew how to play the boards.
This...
>Finally...someone who's willing to listen to reason. I wish everyone
>_would_ read these posts, but it's almost like some people just want to
>start rumors or something.
...seems a bit incongruous. The fact of the matter is that the Newsboys
have spent the last what, six? seven?, years establishing a reputation as
a "fun" band. See the drum set turn upside down! See the guitar player
play with his teeth! See the keyboardist play upside-down and backwards --
blindfolded! And who cares that most of the sound coming off the stage has
little if anything to do with what the performers are doing? Consequently,
it strikes me as a little more than rumor-mongering when people question
what's going on during concerts now. If you ask me, given that the band
members have decided they want to be taken seriously -- real musicians who
really play -- they'd be well advised to give up every DAT, sample,
sequencer, etc. and just come out and play. Sure, the sound won't be as
full and people may have to get used to what's live not sounding like
what's recorded, but since the band has been the one that's drawn the line
in the sand and publically stated that they are getting rid of the tapes
they ought to be doing so -- and doing so completely. It's not the tapes
I object to (at least not on ethical grounds, aesthetics is another issue
altogether), it's the claim that the performance is something it's not.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
SDWA...@miamiu.bitnet
and met the newsies and scc this past weekend....really nice bucnh of humble
guys....specially j.frankenstein and dunny ...... not about this fakin stuff
i know without doubt they did not fake it at all!!! the sound was to live
and the guitar and bass matche...no behind the back stuff or crystal ball
stuff either...... the percussion was loud and hot too!!! dunny can really
play!!!!! these guys and scc are amzing in concert don't miss out... and
if can get an chance to talk with them.... go for it ...i did and was
blessed totally by the father ...-s.
ama...@imap2.asu.edu
: Given this...
[deletia]
: This...
[deletia]
: ...seems a bit incongruous. The fact of the matter is that the Newsboys
: have spent the last what, six? seven?, years establishing a reputation as
: a "fun" band. See the drum set turn upside down! See the guitar player
: play with his teeth! See the keyboardist play upside-down and backwards --
: blindfolded! And who cares that most of the sound coming off the stage has
: little if anything to do with what the performers are doing? Consequently,
: it strikes me as a little more than rumor-mongering when people question
: what's going on during concerts now. If you ask me, given that the band
: members have decided they want to be taken seriously -- real musicians who
: really play -- they'd be well advised to give up every DAT, sample,
: sequencer, etc. and just come out and play. Sure, the sound won't be as
: full and people may have to get used to what's live not sounding like
: what's recorded, but since the band has been the one that's drawn the line
: in the sand and publically stated that they are getting rid of the tapes
: they ought to be doing so -- and doing so completely. It's not the tapes
: I object to (at least not on ethical grounds, aesthetics is another issue
: altogether), it's the claim that the performance is something it's not.
It's starting to remind me of the controversy several years ago over
whether Mylon and Broken Heart used tracks on their tours. After I saw
one of their shows, I was pretty sure that they did, but I also knew that
Mylon chose seasoned musicians who knew how to play. At that time,
however, their music was so complex and sequenced that they could not do
all the choreography and play all the parts live at the same time.
The only thing that will get Christian musicians to stop using tracks is
if no one goes to their shows anymore. I realize that a lot of people at
the lower echelons of the touring world may be constrained by economics,
but maybe it's time to cut back the expectations of what they should be
expected to deliver. Not everything has to sound like the album,
people. That's one of the reasons I go to shows--to hear a different
spin on the material. IMHO, many songs sound better with the polish
stripped away.
RYAN HAWLEY
of Auborn Hills along with 13000 other people. And I thought Newsboys were
great. There message was to GO PUBLIC with your faith and tell your friends
about Christ. I thought there message was great and there singing was
excellent to. To me it looked like they were really playing in fact I know
the drummer was sure playing. Then S.C.C came on he was great not only his
sing and hius humour but what he also what he was trying to put across. That
we should be showing everyone heaven in the real world. To me this was the
best concert I have ever been to. And if you get a chance to see them you
won't regret it!!!
JERRY BLANCHARD RAY JR
>Also, why go to a live concert when it's not "live?" You could play the CD at
>high volumes and worship at home for $.02 electrical bill instead of paying
>$15 to see jumping around from a DAT-driven concert.
>BTW, I hope you have a good time listening to SCC. At least he plays in
>concert...
Everybody PLEASE note that this article was dated November 9th, and just
showed up at my site today (November, um, 17th). It was sent before the
(apparent) resolution of the whole Newsboys issue. Please don't start
the whole flamewar up again!
Thanks :-)
Stargazer
>
> >That is a false statement outright. No basis in fact.
>
> hmm. we'll take it under consideration.
>
Why, thank you!
> >Whatever his personal gripes about religion were (same goes for Marx for instance) they shouldn't
>
> nietzsche's personal gripes? other than frustration with his species?
> probably was glad for the amusement; i think you mean his philosophy, and not
> his personal gripes.
No, I mean precisely his *personal* gripes. One cannot be antagonistic and apprehensive (from
a humanitarian point of view) of
a philosophy that innately promotes humanitarian behaviour (Christ *did* say the most
important commandment for us humans is to love God and our fellow humans, all in one breath)
unless one has had a negative *experience* which he/she somehow connects back to that
philosophy, whether the causality of the negative experiences was actually inherently
promoted by the tenets of that philosophy or not.
I have read enough Nietzsche to realize that his philosophical arguments against God and
christianity are mediocre at best. It may be very emotional and if you happen to agree
with him, have a very clever appearance but if you dissect them they prove insufficient at best.
I wish I had the time to go back and show miriads of examples and if you keep up this
hazy, foggy and deceptive mumble-jumbo disguised as philosophical postulates I may just do
it anyway.
> and in response to the usual accusation (which you, being
> a not-very-creative flamer, have included), no, he is not "like a god to me."
> but he did a beautiful slam of christinanity.
>
Again, his slam was in no way beautiful and I wasn't flaming or accusing here because it
is very obvious to me taht you regard him highly enough to attempt at constructing a philosophical
basis for your christian-bashing by relying heavily on his arguments. This isn't any less
reverential than christians basing their philosophy in large part on the Bible.
Anyway, you don't believe in god(s) so how could he be a god to you anyway? Right svenman?
>
> oh yeah, i'm shoving my values down someone's throat. good people =
> benevolent, in a fairly benevolently public assumption, and reasons to be
> obsessed with human treatment of people are many. do you actually read what
> you flame?
>
Ehem, do *you* ?
It doesn't appear so. Your feeble attempt at trying to steer the argument right back at
me is sophomoric. I made the exact same point which you belied by making statements
that contradict the very values you seem to be hell-bent on promoting.
I merely asked a question. You never once state where you come up with your universal
definitions for such basic terms as "good people" or "human treatment". Is that so much to ask?
And please, we're (supposedly) talking about philosophy here not an opinion poll, so public
assumptions aren't any more valid than blind faith is.
If you did not see the irony in the question you are more hopeless than I thought.
> >That's a laugher Mr. "dime-a-dozen mainstream metal geek" sveeehn.
>
> hahahahahaha.
>
Face it! It's the truth. You're as much a sheep as any of the people you accuse.
The whatabouts of the sheperd are irrelevant.
>
> not at all. ideas very much have consequences, as do combined and
> revered theories. that is part of the essence of this argument.
>
Blowing smoke again svn? If what you state above is true than how could you make a statement
in which you basically proclaim that the philosophy is crappy, someone believes in it, lives it,
and manages to accomplish great humanitarian dees within it? (all from a humanitarian perspective,
of course).
You seriously think this is an argument?
>
> >Spoken as a true classroom philosopher.
> >Of course Hitler adhered to a very good philosophy, he just managed to do very nasty things
> >within that context. Apartheid is really a noble system, those idiots just missed the boat,
> >right?
>
> am i supposed to take this seriously?
>
Quit editing me, please! My statement which just followed that one made it quite clear what you
(or anyone else for that matter) was supposed to think of that. Another one of your
very own bbs tactics perhaps?
> >metal, the philosophy, maybe, metal the musical style that grew out of it,
> nope. >Face it svaenne, you're a protectionist antique of a person who
> probably believes that white people >have no right to do rap and black folk
> have no place in playing Mozart on the violin if they are >so inclined. Or
> maybe Jews should refrain from listening to Wagner. I guess Zubin Mehta just
> >better stop conducting "The Ring" cycle.
>
> on your assumptions, no. i repeat the question above, and prefer to
> ignore this flow of mindless slander. a musical style would be rooted in a
> philosophy; if the philosophy is a life-philosophy, as opposed to simply a
> musical one, the philosophy is vital. why do metal bands print their lyrics
> and take great pride in them? why does metal have the richest lyrical
> tradition in rock? hmm.
>
This is not a "flow of mindless slander", but you may think it is since you're
definition of mind is definitely one lacking. You have no clue, do you?
Is your mind really so diluted that you can assert certain life philosophies cannot
exist without music and/or vice-versa? Please.
Let me ask this: How is the interaction between Wagner's musical/life philosophy
any different in essence than that of any metal band?
Come on!
>
> >Somehow I feel that you don't really think this quote through before righting
> >your posts.
> >I guess in your world mosquitoes don't really bite...
>
> hahahahaha.
Yes, again the truth.
Ha ha ha indeed. A sad one, alas.
--Stargazer
Dave Miyares
Wow Cool. Now if there were only people who'd write christian
zines. All I ever come across are those "Ticket to Hell" zines
that have been circulating in the Cleveland area.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Miyares ! Casa De Toad/More Dead Trees
Casa De Toad Records c/o ! PO Box 45065
dave.m...@pcohio.com ! Cleveland, Ohio 44145
It's the dawn of the crucifiers...
>Wow Cool. Now if there were only people who'd write christian
>zines. All I ever come across are those "Ticket to Hell" zines
>that have been circulating in the Cleveland area.
or those great chick (guysname, not womn) publications that are
circulated around here telling me why homosexuals are evil and will die in the
name of the lord...seem to have more compelling 'evidence' than has been
presented against me here, but i don't buy it there, either.
- goat
The day drew long shadows over the splintery wood and the bowed, hot, muted
heads of the crowd. To the left, a final gasp. In the center all eyes were.
Hands strained against bloody holes of gouging, ragged nailing, and feet
twisting on their spindle. Breath came slowly. Then, faster, and soon faster.
In his mind the Nazarene could see her bent over his groin, working for his
pleasure, her face strained. "Oh..." he murmured. The crowd pushed forward.
"Oh!" he gasped, "Oh, God! Oh, Mary! Oh...", spraying his thick semen on the
faithful, and into the mud. -- sven przk/nazarapine, inc.
jrcal...@gmail.com
> In article <Cyyn4...@aplcenmp.apl.jhu.edu>
> cris...@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu writes:
>
> >
> >Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 19:44:58 GMT
> >Lines: 38
> >
> >
> >In article <CyxHq...@acsu.buffalo.edu>, <v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu>
> >writes:
> >> I have been reading all about the Newsboys and them fakin their set and I
> >> think that it is sad that people are ripping them apart because they may or
> >> may not be doing a live show. I saw them last winter when they came to
> >> Buffalo and I know that they performed live and what the Boys were playing
> >> was what I saw. Some people might take this fact into consideration that
> >> the Boys are on the road and doing performance about every other night and
> >> that can wear a person down. And on top of that they will be head lining
> >> a tour with AA in Jan. If they are or aren't performing live at least they
> >> are out there spreading the Word of God through good music and to someone
> >> who may hear them for the first time and not be a christian it could point
> >> them in the right direction and into the light of Christ. I will be seeing
> >> the Newsboys and SCC on 14th in BFLO whether or not they perform a live set
> >> or not I am going to hear some good christian music and to praise God for it
> >>
> >> In Christ
> >> Matt DIngle " It's Good To Be Alive '
> >> v105...@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu -Geoff Moore-
> >
> So do the ends justify the means in Christain music? I like the Newsboys and
> thoroughly enjoyed the concert I saw of them, but the fact remains that if they
> are selling $15 to $20 dollar tickets for a live show and then giving you a
> glorified CD, that is fraud.
> If they can't do their show at that level of energy all the time then they
> either need to cut back on dates or do some low-energy shows.
I wouldn't exactly say it's fraud. You are still getting the newsboys in person. they are providing entertainment and an experience that you don't get just sitting at home with the cd/mp3 ect. however I do wish they would play live. I know that most if not all are good musician/singers, so it would be nice to get the true live experience. This practice is common in both Christian and Mainstream acts. Some do it because they could not sound nearly as good live, but I don't think this is the case with The Newsboys.