Michael Card's business practices
Bob Pegritz
to say. And you can see that I have found a very large forum to say it in.
I had sent a FAX to Michael Card last week. And he has until next weekend
(October 28-29) to respond. If there is no response, then I will share my
recently acquired information with the readers of this usenet as well as the
readers of other Christian music subjects here on the Internet.
Michael, please respond to my FAX by calling me at my telephone number.
Thank you.
J. Streck
>I hope that this gets to Michael. You and your associates know what I have
>to say. And you can see that I have found a very large forum to say it in.
[...]
If you look in the yellow pages I'm sure you'll find many a laundramat
located in your neighborhood. Any one, I think, would be a more
appropriate place than here to be airing your dirty laundry.
john streck
jst...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu
Allen Lim
> I hope that this gets to Michael. You and your associates know what I have
> to say. And you can see that I have found a very large forum to say it in.
> I had sent a FAX to Michael Card last week. And he has until next weekend
> (October 28-29) to respond. If there is no response, then I will share my
> recently acquired information with the readers of this usenet as well as the
> readers of other Christian music subjects here on the Internet.
>
> Michael, please respond to my FAX by calling me at my telephone number.
>
> Thank you.
After all that has been said and taught about bad-mouthing and
slandering in the bible, I'm surprise that you've chosed to threathen
another christian this way... Please take sometime to pray about the
matter.
*******************************************************************************
Allen Lim Stand at the crossroad and look...
P.O. Box 2583 Ask for the ancient paths,
Mississippi State ask where the good way is,
MS 39762 and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your
ca...@ra.msstate.edu souls... JEREMIAH 6:16
===============================================================================
Bob Pegritz
slander, blackmail, illegal use of the Internet, unethical practices, lying,
and not being at all a Christian. For those who have both responded here and
personally to my e-mail address, I ask you to re-read my posting, as I have
done today. Yes, I have information. But the post is to get the attention of
anyone in Michael Card's organization so that perhaps these items (which are
not
"
"rumors" as they have been referred to) can be addressed in private. I need
to call attention to those specific people and this is a good way of doing it.
Again, what I have to say and what I know is the truth since I am directly
involved. And whether or not this is a good forum for "airing ANYONE's
dirty laundry", the fact remains that I have no problem with telling the truth.
It is interesting that all of these so-called Christians on this usenet have
resorted to such name-calling and down-right un-Christian behavior. After all,
I have NOT discussed the content of my post with anyone as yet. So all of
the respondants thus far are only guessing and leaning heavily toward the
negative. For those who feel that I must be either censored, chastised, or,
in several cases, literally threatened, learn the truth first, and then make
your judgements. Any further e-mails that are not specifically from The Music
Group at Mole End or Street Level Artists will be deleted before they are
even read. I am not interested in your pre-conceived rubbish. Only the truth.
Will McDonald
writes:
Well Bob, I did not blast you when I wrote you just a few hours after
your original post. I suggested that you contact Mr. Card's church
because he is accountable to their ministry board. I did not make any
other statements except to say that your original post had the scent of
blackmail ('Ive found a large audience unless you respond by xxx') and
that gave me a preconceived negative impression of anything you had to
say.
You responded by telling me to act like a Christian and 'learn to be
kind' to others. I think you have a persecution complex. You do not
seem to be very stable. (I am not joking with you or mocking you. I
am dead serious.)
After all,
>I have NOT discussed the content of my post with anyone as yet. So
all of
>the respondants thus far are only guessing and leaning heavily toward
the
>negative. For those who feel that I must be either censored,
chastised, or,
>in several cases, literally threatened, learn the truth first, and
then make
>your judgements.
I have no guesses about the secret 'information' that you have. In
fact I have little interest in what you have to say. You have already
demonstrated to me that you are a questionable source of information.
Any further e-mails that are not specifically from The Music
>Group at Mole End or Street Level Artists will be deleted before they
are
>even read. I am not interested in your pre-conceived rubbish. Only
the truth.
Since you have cut yourself off from private e-mail, I must assume you
did not read my response to your personal blast to me.
I suggest that you talk to a pastor or counselor before you go posting
who knows what all over the 'net.
Will
Mitchell K. Dwyer
: After all that has been said and taught about bad-mouthing and
: another christian this way... Please take sometime to pray about the
: matter.
..and after you've prayed about the matter, take your pathetic gossip
somewhere where there are people who care. unless michael card is doing
a michael warnke, i can't imagine anything you'd say would change
anyone's mind about anything (and even then, possibly not: look at all
the people on rmc who stuck up for warnke!).
please find yourself another forum.
drink it black,
m
Christopher C Parks
McDonald ) writes to Bob Pegritz:
>I suggest that you talk to a pastor or counselor before you go posting
>who knows what all over the 'net.
Sound advice. I wish I could be hopeful enough to believe that Bob P
would take it. Nothing in his posting gives me any such hope.
I have decided that I will not be a participant in Mr. Pegritz's little
power games, and so he is now in my killfile. I offer that as a
possibility for others.
Walter Gorlitz ended his post with the statement that he will be praying
for reconciliation in this situation. I will be doing the same.
Peace,
chris
Beverley
Bob Pegritz <bobpe...@delphi.com> wrote:
>It is interesting that since I created this posting, I have been accused of
>slander, blackmail, illegal use of the Internet, unethical practices, lying,
>and not being at all a Christian. For those who have both responded here and
>personally to my e-mail address, I ask you to re-read my posting, as I have
>done today. Yes, I have information. But the post is to get the attention of
>anyone in Michael Card's organization so that perhaps these items (which are
>not "rumors" as they have been referred to) can be addressed in private.
>I need to call attention to those specific people and this is a good way
>of doing it.
No, it's NOT.
If you are directly involved in the situation, ostensibly you have contact
information for the individuals you need to deal with. Legal counsel is
also readily available in North America, should the situation be of that
magnitude. It is not necessary to post something very vague in a forum
read by what I believe to be thousands of people (anyone got the last
Arbitrons?) and call undue attention to your problems/disputes before
even being willing to say what the problems are.
By titling your post as you did and essentially saying "If I don't get
a reply by X time, X date" (something you can't even guarantee the
persons in question will *see*, unless they're on the same ISP as you --
propagation sucks right now, since Sprintnet is biting many horkmonkeys)
you run the risk of starting the rumour mill in motion and implying
more than may actually be going on.
IMO, if there's a need to tell r.m.c. or whatever Net-based CCM discussion
forums about shady business practices in Cardland, it would have been better
to present your ultimatum in that fax you sent, or to just come straight
here. But your post does translate as blackmail, and innuendo about
business disputes does *no one* any good....and doesn't lend credence to
your eventual claims in many people's eyes.
>Again, what I have to say and what I know is the truth since I am directly
>involved. And whether or not this is a good forum for "airing ANYONE's
>dirty laundry", the fact remains that I have no problem with telling the truth.
That's all well and good, but why not consider the appropriateness of the
forum to the situation? I don't post gory details about my former sex life
here; why shouldn't I? They're true...
>It is interesting that all of these so-called Christians on this usenet have
>resorted to such name-calling and down-right un-Christian behavior. After all,
>I have NOT discussed the content of my post with anyone as yet. So all of
>the respondants thus far are only guessing and leaning heavily toward the
>negative. For those who feel that I must be either censored, chastised, or,
>in several cases, literally threatened, learn the truth first, and then make
>your judgements.
What are we *supposed* to gather from your post? If we're not supposed to
think anything about it, *why did you post publically?* If you have
legitemate grounds for complaint, that's one thing. But coming here *prior*
to announcing your difficulties and drawing attention to a lack of publically
available information is quite another.
And I really don't want to play another round of "I'm more Christian than
you."
--
-- wedn...@tezcat.com -- http://www.tezcat.com/~wednsday/ --
-- "Now I'm second to propagation." -- Andrew S. Damick --
Bob Weigel
: I hope that this gets to Michael. You and your associates know what I have
: to say. And you can see that I have found a very large forum to say it in.
: I had sent a FAX to Michael Card last week. And he has until next weekend
: (October 28-29) to respond. If there is no response, then I will share my
: recently acquired information with the readers of this usenet as well as the
: readers of other Christian music subjects here on the Internet.
:
: Michael, please respond to my FAX by calling me at my telephone number.
Yes, I would certaily do that Michael,....but THIS is not exactly the
perfect way to follow Matthew 18:15 regarding confronting a sin. SOOOO,
reader beware. This matter, which from what we can all read relates to
an alledged sin on Michael Card's part, HAS NOT been established by witnesses.
(From what we can tell above. Were it already established, there would be
no reason to send FAX's, etc. We would simply " tell the church" and drop it.)
It should, THEREFORE, not be brought to the body of Christ at this point....
but it has been. THUS, I simply say "let the reader not presume anything
about anything at this point" (Except that the writer is going about this
matter correctly.) I've never though of Michael as the type of person to
have "business practices". Perhaps he has developed some, but given what
I've known in the past, I doubt it.
I will attempt to speak with the author in private about his methods,
having been in a similar situation myself some time back. (Save the fact
that I was dealing with an already public record :-) ) -Bob
Joe Parsons
On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:31:38 GMT, v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
[snip]
>>a michael warnke, i can't imagine anything you'd say would change
>>anyone's mind about anything (and even then, possibly not: look at all
>>the people on rmc who stuck up for warnke!).
Where is information on Warnke available?
Joe Parsons
Bob Weigel
: From the "Michael Card" thread...
: On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:31:38 GMT, v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
: [snip]
: Where is information on Warnke available?
Here's a clip re: his 'ptl' interview a year+ or so ago after the
incident w/ Cornerstone. I had a date of 6/94 on the file...I don't
know why I didn't save the header in it's complete state.
--------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: PUB. ANNC.- Warnke Repents!
Did anyone catch Mike Warnke on TBN "Praise the Lord" show
last night?
I was surprised to see him. Carlton Pearson and his wife were guest
hosting.
Warnke talked at some length, without a lot of detail about what all
he had been through over the past couple of years. He was very
honest, and said plainly he had made a lot of mistakes, and was
guilty of some of the things he was accused of...others he said he
was not. He said he thought the people who made the accusations were
sincere Christians who thought they were doing the right thing. He
said he holds no animosity towards them.
He has submitted himself to a board of elders, to oversee him
and his ministry.
He talked about the prices he had paid for mistakes he had made.
He talked about the business of embellishing the stories he used to
tell. He said that like fish stories, they got out of hand in an
effort to please and draw crowds.
He answered the charges of being arrogant, cocky and cynical. He said
that his last performance before losing everything was videotaped at
Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland Florida. He said he went back and
watched the tape, and couldn't believe he had acted like that. He
said he had been so cocky, arrogant and cynical that he couldn't
believe it.
Marks Opinion: I've seen Warnke live probably 6-7 times. The last
time I saw him was a good year before everything came out, and my
wife and I were so turned off by his arrogance that we agreed we
would never go to see him again. Then when the word came
out, naturally, I said "aha!".
Last night I got a bit riled seeing him on the show. But I have to
say, that by the time the interview was over, I had tears in my eyes.
Mike Warnke is a different man. It's like night and day, for those of
you who knew him before. He acted very broken, very contrite, and
humble. He testified that "Jesus is not only King of the hill...he's
the Lord of the Valley" and of God's love through his ordeal.
I found myself feeling like a fool for believing him...yet I want to.
I have to believe him. If a brother comes forward in repentance, we
humble. He testified that "Jesus is not only King of the hill...he's
the Lord of the Valley" and of God's love through his ordeal.
I found myself feeling like a fool for believing him...yet I want to.
I have to believe him. If a brother comes forward in repentance, we
have to give him the hand of fellowship. I'm sure time will tell. I
hope I can remember and find it in my heart to pray for him. I felt
really "burned" by Warnke, but after last night, my heart went out to
him.
Mike also said that he has started his ministry from ground zero. He
is now going to small churches, and he said he doesn't care if he ever
sees another concert hall or signs another record deal etc.
What was the name of the book...a "take-off" on the name of Warnke's
"The Satan Seller" that someone wrote exposing his deception?
Just some thoughts....discussion?
Mark
walter gorlitz
>From the "Michael Card" thread...
>
>On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:31:38 GMT, v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>a michael warnke, i can't imagine anything you'd say would change
>>>anyone's mind about anything (and even then, possibly not: look at all
>>>the people on rmc who stuck up for warnke!).
>
>Where is information on Warnke available?
>
>Joe Parsons
Cornerstone Magazine wrote an article in 1992, reprinted in 1993. Expanded
into a book sometime later (1994?).
Contact them for the reprints or book. Check your local Christian
bookstore for teh book.
--------------------------------------------------------------
| walter gorlitz | "The Christian life is about |
| Vancouver, BC, Canada | the beginning of hope, |
| walter_...@mindlink.bc.ca | not the end of struggle." |
| or CIS:70404,416 | Brent Bourgeois |
--------------------------------------------------------------
V-X
>From the "Michael Card" thread...
>On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:31:38 GMT, v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
>[snip]
>>>a michael warnke, i can't imagine anything you'd say would change
>>>anyone's mind about anything (and even then, possibly not: look at all
>>>the people on rmc who stuck up for warnke!).
>Where is information on Warnke available?
I can't remember: somebody's got it on a web site.
I didn't write the above, BTW.
Visit the WWW Jack Chick Archive at http://dig.netcentral.net/vx
------"...And through thick woods one finds a stream astray,------
So secret that the very sky seems small--
--------------I think I will not hang myself today."-----GKC------
walter gorlitz
>He has submitted himself to a board of elders,
>to oversee him and his ministry.
That was one of the original problems. He was reporting to a board of
elders who were hand picked and paid by Warnke.
V-X
comments for those who are new to this group or the Warnke saga.
>Warnke talked at some length, without a lot of detail about what all
>he had been through over the past couple of years. He was very
>honest,
No. He's not.
>and said plainly he had made a lot of mistakes, and was
>guilty of some of the things he was accused of...others he said he
>was not.
Of course, he didn't say which. Sometimes he's a little more specific,
and says things like maybe there were only a few dozen witches he was
in charge of, instead of a few thousand. Most of the time he's just
vague, and hopes diehard fans will buy it.
>He said he thought the people who made the accusations were
>sincere Christians who thought they were doing the right thing. He
>said he holds no animosity towards them.
He has, in the years since the Cornerstone story, stated several times
publically and privately that JPUSA, who publish Cornerstone, were
inspired by the devil to destroy him. Accusations against them by him
and his ex-wife, Rose, have gone as far as stating that JPUSA will
have anyone who stands up to them murdered.
>He has submitted himself to a board of elders, to oversee him
>and his ministry.
He has not. As far as I know, he still runs his own church of which
he's the only member, and the fabled "board" is in fact the board of
his ministry, which is an incorporated business, which is required by
law to have a board. He had a board before all this came out.
One of the members of the board, BTW, is his personal attorney. Some
accountability.
>He talked about the prices he had paid for mistakes he had made.
That I can't argue with--he certainly can't live in the fashion he was
accustomed to, especially not with another alimony payment and more
child support. (Is he on wife four or five, now?)
>He talked about the business of embellishing the stories he used to
>tell. He said that like fish stories, they got out of hand in an
>effort to please and draw crowds.
This is typical of Warnke--he constantly blames "the crowd" for his
lies. Never mind that he pretty much created the American market for
fake-Satanist stories.
>He answered the charges of being arrogant, cocky and cynical. He said
>that his last performance before losing everything was videotaped at
>Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland Florida. He said he went back and
>watched the tape, and couldn't believe he had acted like that. He
>said he had been so cocky, arrogant and cynical that he couldn't
>believe it.
How nice for him. I've heard he hasn't changed much.
>Last night I got a bit riled seeing him on the show. But I have to
>say, that by the time the interview was over, I had tears in my eyes.
>Mike Warnke is a different man. It's like night and day, for those of
>you who knew him before. He acted very broken, very contrite, and
>humble. He testified that "Jesus is not only King of the hill...he's
>the Lord of the Valley" and of God's love through his ordeal.
Yay! He wins!
>I found myself feeling like a fool for believing him...yet I want to.
>I have to believe him.
>I found myself feeling like a fool for believing him...yet I want to.
>I have to believe him. If a brother comes forward in repentance, we
>have to give him the hand of fellowship.
No we don't. As far as I'm concerned, said "brother" has some personal
bridges to rebuild, and Warnke hasn't done *anything* to provoke
confidence in his "repentance."
In other words, if the Sunday School teacher who molested your kid
comes back to church, seemingly contrite, do you spurn him and whisper
about him? No. Do you let him teach Sunday School? What are you,
kidding?
>Mike also said that he has started his ministry from ground zero. He
>is now going to small churches, and he said he doesn't care if he ever
>sees another concert hall or signs another record deal etc.
Pppppppp. Excuse while I go throw up.
>What was the name of the book...a "take-off" on the name of Warnke's
>"The Satan Seller" that someone wrote exposing his deception?
>Just some thoughts....discussion?
Selling Satan is the name of the book.
Jason L. Ivey
> Joe Parsons (j...@cyber-mall.com) wrote:
> : From the "Michael Card" thread...
>
> : On Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:31:38 GMT, v...@teleport.com (V-X) wrote:
>
> : [snip]
> : Where is information on Warnke available?
>
> Here's a clip re: his 'ptl' interview a year+ or so ago after the
> incident w/ Cornerstone. I had a date of 6/94 on the file...I don't
> know why I didn't save the header in it's complete state.
[snip-o-rama]
What is it that Warnke did? I knew that something was up, but I never
heard what. I guess I'm just nosy.
-Jason
Bob Weigel
: Number one, I was wrong about saying that there was a post here about a
: guy going to a conference and confronting Warnke. Even better, as stated
: by someone else, it was a letter in Cornerstone. So while I was wrong, I
: was only understating the case, not overstating it.
Ok, i'm hearing that Cornerstone (know for their ability to actually
state DOCUMENTED FACTS instead of the unfounded rumors this newsgroup
seems to be LIMITED TO...) has done another article? Could I PLEASE
at least have an issue reference, so I can check this out for my
self.....THEN bring the facts back to this group in some kind of
manner that will help people understand,...as opposed to:
: Number two, here is a reply from my friend Dale Tuggy. I sent him the
: salient parts of this discussion previous.
: Dave
: ==============================
: Hi Mark - that second to last paragraph is the key to the whole thing. I
: guarantee you that Warnke is wants back into the business of "ministry".
Dales' personal guarantee? No way!! :-)
: TBN was irresponsible to put him on (no surpise, unfortunately) - a liar
: like Warnke can be forgiven, and should be, but he should never, never be
: trusted (with ministry) again. He is a first class emotional manipulator
Well, I refer this statement back to my previous posting about "spreading
another gospel"....as it sounds like the same line of reasoning. AS I NOTED
in my article,....nearly EVERYONE who claims to know Jesus, has a VERY
WRONG idea about what the gospel is. Will anyone help me spread the real
gospel here? That's the one where Jesus takes our sins and chucks them as
far as east is from west....and where WE are left to deal with the reality
of that. What I'm hearing above sounds like "Mike can be forgiven, but
he can never change". IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING? YIKKKKEEEES!!!
: -
: do not be surprised that he said all of the right things. That is his
: style. He's a wolf, and not a sheep. He's gone through the whole
: "submitting himself" to people several times before, from what I remember.
: He'll make whatever moves he thinks he needs to - from denying the charges
: to partly admitting them, to fully admitting them. You should have seen
Like I said, given his actions after the release of the article, I
wouldn't doubt this. But as Christians, we need to take a documented
approach. I'm missing a link here. Please help me Dale,...somebody.
Do you see what I'm saying?
: the evasive manuvers he went through when they first came out. Just look
: into how much money he was making before the expose (millions per year)
: and
: you'll know wy he is once again offering himself to the Christian public
: in
: T.V. We think that forgiveness requires naivite, and bending over to let
: ourselves get kicked again.
No I don't. I think life requires discernment to avoid getting burned.
I think discernment requires a relationship with the holy spirit; our tap
into God's infinite vision, as he lends it in his love to keep us from
getting burned. Like I said, I've never given a nickel to Warnke or his
ministry, because it never bore witness for me to be at one of his concerts.
Why? Because God had better things for me to do than be amused and hear a
bunch of stuff I already know. BUT, I was touched to hear his story about
finding the Lord through the jesus frieks in his barracks. Perhaps it was
all a fabrication, but much like Jesus' "fabrication" regarding the prodigal
son, it portrayed a concept about God's love that was VERY valid....and I
won't let the possibility that it didn't really happen in Mike's life
nullify the valid communication that God spoke through it. God has used
all kinds of imperfect people to spread his word. (Too bad Mike couldn't
act a little more Christ-like in his presentation, and let us know that
these things were fabrications by his context.....but that's his loss.
The message still has touched a lot of people.)
ANYWAY, here's how it works brothers and sisters. Each of us should
do as the spirit is leading them. If you don't have the spirit, you're
going to get burned anyway, so why not by Mike? Mike needs to get fatter
anyway, if he's going to enter that "roll-a-thon for Jesus" next easter....
Meanwhile, those of us who do have the spirit, let us either
1) speak with the authority of the spirit! (As in "The Lord has shown
me that Mike is unrepentent. HERE is a SIGN that will distinguish my
word of prophecy from a RUMOR." The Lord has always worked that way,
so that people don't just go about spreading rumors in his name. There
is always some manifestation which confirms it has his word [Jer. 28] )
2) speak of documented facts which INCLUDE the report of two or more witnesses
who have tried to confront Mike, or whoever.
Is the difference between these options and what has been happening
clear to everyone? I'm calling out for responses from the body of Christ.
Let's make our presence known here folks. If you don't understand or have
some gripe with what I'm saying, make that known and let's work this one
through once and for all. I believe people CAN change...including those
who have been spreading rumors in this group. IF YOU ARE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH
SOMEONE WHO NEEDS TO RESPOND AND DOES NOT, HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE. IF THEY
SAY "Oh, I don't read bob's stuff. He's in my kill file" or whatever, then
confront them for not working things out with me, because it is MY desire
that the bond of peace be between us, NOT the division thing. -Bob
FlavorD
together an enormous article documenting that not a thing in his "I was a
Satanic high priest, but then I got saved" story is true. The article had
40 column inches of footnotes alone. If you really want, I have copies of
it I could send you in the snail mail. As I said before, the point here
is that the problem is not some exaggerations, or forgetting of facts or
details, but that the story has absolutely no basis in fact, and has
spawned the whole international satanist underground conspiracy theory in
Christendom.
Dave
Pensero
>From: b...@garcia.efn.org (Bob Weigel)
>Subject: Re: Mike Warnke?
>Date: 2 Nov 1995 19:32:12 GMT
BUT, I was touched to hear his story about
>finding the Lord through the jesus frieks in his barracks. Perhaps it was
>all a fabrication, but much like Jesus' "fabrication" regarding the prodigal
>son, it portrayed a concept about God's love that was VERY valid....and I
>won't let the possibility that it didn't really happen in Mike's life
>nullify the valid communication that God spoke through it. God has used
>all kinds of imperfect people to spread his word. (Too bad Mike couldn't
>act a little more Christ-like in his presentation, and let us know that
>these things were fabrications by his context.....but that's his loss.
>The message still has touched a lot of people.)
As far as I know, Jesus never intended for His audience to believe that the
story of the prodigal son actually happened, whereas Warnke deliberately
told his story in such a fashion that everyone thought it had really
happened. Make no mistake, Mike wanted everyone to believe it as literally
true. In Jesus' time, the use of parables to communicate a truth was quite
common, and you didn't need to stick a disclaimer to every one.
Mike needs to get fatter
>anyway, if he's going to enter that "roll-a-thon for Jesus" next easter....
What the heck is that???
-Bob
-Pensero
V-X
>Given that he has refused to receive further mail
>from me, and having been on long enough to have seen the folly of
>others, he should have known this is more than a threat.
You're right. How could I have been so foolish? I should have been
more fearful of the wrath of Bob, having seen so many others perish in
the fire of his disfavor.
> Mr. X has scorned
>my approach, so I must post publically.
Why? Can't you just shut up? Have you read any of the "shut up" verses
in the Bible, or do you think they just apply to everybody who isn't a
prophet like you?
>Herein lie some of the most powerful words I've shared in the near
>decade I've been writing for the sake of the gospel on the internet.
>Consider the implications on all of us.
Film at eleven.
I'm sitting here wondering why you felt it necessary to post this when
I already have...
Lorenz M. Schmiege, III
>FlavorD (fla...@aol.com) wrote:
>>TBN was irresponsible to put him on (no surpise, unfortunately) - a liar
>>like Warnke can be forgiven, and should be, but he should never, never be
>>trusted (with ministry) again. He is a first class emotional manipulator
> Well, I refer this statement back to my previous posting about "spreading
>another gospel"....as it sounds like the same line of reasoning. AS I NOTED
>in my article,....nearly EVERYONE who claims to know Jesus, has a VERY
>WRONG idea about what the gospel is. Will anyone help me spread the real
>gospel here? That's the one where Jesus takes our sins and chucks them as
>far as east is from west....and where WE are left to deal with the reality
>of that. What I'm hearing above sounds like "Mike can be forgiven, but
>he can never change". IS THAT WHAT I'M HEARING? YIKKKKEEEES!!!
O.K. I feel like playing Devil's advocate (although I'm almost afraid to use
this phrase on rmc ;) ).
[turing Devil's advocate mode on]
David wrote that when God forgives, our sin is separated from us as far as the
east is from the west. [Psalm 103:12] However, when David wanted to build a
temple to the LORD (all caps on purpose), God said that David wasn't the man to
do it because he was a man of war and had shed much blood. [1 Chronicles
22:7-8, 28:3-4]. Being a man of war is not in itself a sin as far as I can
tell. Maybe, what God was saying that we can do things which later compromise
our usefulness to Him. Maybe, the question is not whether Mike Warnke is
forgiven, but whether he has compromised his usefulness as a minister. Maybe,
this is not an issue of "gospel" but rather of stewardship.
[turing Devil's advocate mode off]
Lorenz Schmiege
V-X
>Can anyone tell me in a nutshell what happened to Warnke to cause him to
>"lose everything"? I seriously don't know, and these posts are driving
>me crazy, because I don't know what they're talking about. I'm new to
>this group.
It turns out that everything he ever said in his life short of
something you can be personally convinced of like "Oh look, it's
toast!" is a complete lie.
Gideon van Zyl
>[turing Devil's advocate mode on]
>
>David wrote that when God forgives, our sin is separated from us as far as the
>east is from the west. [Psalm 103:12] However, when David wanted to build a
>temple to the LORD (all caps on purpose), God said that David wasn't the man to
>do it because he was a man of war and had shed much blood. [1 Chronicles
>22:7-8, 28:3-4]. Being a man of war is not in itself a sin as far as I can
>tell. Maybe, what God was saying that we can do things which later compromise
>our usefulness to Him. Maybe, the question is not whether Mike Warnke is
>forgiven, but whether he has compromised his usefulness as a minister. Maybe,
>this is not an issue of "gospel" but rather of stewardship.
>
>[turing Devil's advocate mode off]
>
>Lorenz Schmiege
Interesting line of reasoning - I have another interesting one for you. One of the
kingpins in the Golden Calf incident was a guy called Aaron. I mean really - this
was one of the worst sins - leading the Israelites in worship of an idol!!!!
Stangely enough after Aaron repented, he was still chief-in-charge priest. His
adventures in dabbling with idolatry to such a level would surely "compromise his
usefulness as a minister".
-Gideon-
FlavorD
>In article <47b6bs$t...@mars.efn.org>, b...@garcia.efn.org (Bob Weigel)
writes...
>>FlavorD (fla...@aol.com) wrote:
>>>TBN was irresponsible to put him on (no surpise, unfortunately) - a
liar
>>>like Warnke can be forgiven, and should be, but he should never, never
be
>>>trusted (with ministry) again. He is a first class emotional
manipulator
I think I must insist that people pay a little more attention around here.
Geeeezzzz. I posted a reply from a friend of mine who doesn't read here,
and I am continually quoted as saying what he said. FOR THE RECORD: It
was Dale Tuggy, Dale_...@Brown.edu
I realize that maybe this one was just because you copied from someone
else's post, but it only helps perpetuate it. Thanks.
Dave
BereanBBS
> Is the difference between these options and what has been happening
>clear to everyone? I'm calling out for responses from the body of
Christ.
>Let's make our presence known here folks. If you don't understand or
have
>some gripe with what I'm saying, make that known and let's work this one
>through once and for all. I believe people CAN change...
Bob,
It is clear to me! But then, I'm reading about 3 weeks of discussion at
once!
I agree with you, but would go one step further, People CAN change, but
ONLY through the work of the Holy Spirit.
To say Mike can't change is to deny the power of God.
To say Mike can't change "on his own" is however, true. If not for the
grace and working of God, thru the Holy Spirit, NONE of us would change
one iota for the better.
ttfn
-=john=-
servant
When God seems absent, Guess who moved?
Tony Bowden
> When God seems absent, Guess who moved?
Job?
Tony
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tony Bowden | Mail: t.bo...@qub.ac.uk or aj...@yfn.ysu.edu
Belfast | URL : http://boris.qub.ac.uk/tony/ for Sam Phillips, Manics,
N. Ireland | Radiohead, Matthew Fox, Jack T Chick, Innocence Mission & U2
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i know you say love when you mean control you buy the truth and your heart is
cold so you live in shadows you try to tell the world how it should spin but
you live in terror with the hollow men who stun you with their lies with fever
in their eyes as they drown you
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V-X
>To say Mike can't change "on his own" is however, true. If not for the
>grace and working of God, thru the Holy Spirit, NONE of us would change
>one iota for the better.
Not only is this not true, it's not scripturally defensible, and is
apt to lead people to view a relationship with God as a way to "get
better," which in turn can lead people to doubly wrongly assume that
those who are not "better" are lesser saints, or not redeemed at all.
(BTW, none of this should be construed as a defense of Warnke.)
V-"So the Holy Spirit improved my study habits my junior year of high
school, then?"-X
David Di Sabatino
> bere...@aol.com (BereanBBS) wrote:
>
> >To say Mike can't change "on his own" is however, true. If not for the
> >grace and working of God, thru the Holy Spirit, NONE of us would change
> >one iota for the better.
>
> Not only is this not true, it's not scripturally defensible, and is
> apt to lead people to view a relationship with God as a way to "get
> better," which in turn can lead people to doubly wrongly assume that
> those who are not "better" are lesser saints, or not redeemed at all.
>
Is Warnke aware that he is in need of a change? . . . that is the real
question.
Sabbi
--
". . . to the man who sees, nothing is profane."
* Teilhard de Chardin