New webstuff: Online Scottish Gaelic lessons!
John Wash
Ar Ca\nan", the "Speaking Our Language" Gaelic tutorial, with the
remaining lessons to be available within a few days. This online
tutorial has pictures as well as audio samples and interactive quizzes
to test what you've learned.
If you're interested in learning Scottish Gaelic, speak Gaelic already,
or just want to visit a cool website, check out the lessons at the USA
mirror site of SMO:
Please take a look around and be sure to fill out the survey! We need
as many responses as possible to help demonstrate to the Powers That Be what
a powerful teaching tool the Web can be.
Tapadh leat,
John Wash
(gaelic.wdmi.com sysadmin)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- John Wash Electronic Freedom March on Washington --
-- jw...@tico.com June 30, 1995 http://www.efm.org --
-- All-new low-cholesterol .sig, now with real bits of crunchy frog! --
Mindie Santi
how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Mindie Santi
Gervais Currie
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Dhomhnaill
It is published by Mid-East Mfg., Inc., 7694 Progress Circle, West
Melbourne, FL 32904.
Also, at our annual Irish Festival here, a bodhran player gives seminars
as well. Do you have an Irish Fest in your area?
Joe Bethancourt
: I have a slim book by Robin M. Smith called "Power Bodhran Techniques".
: Melbourne, FL 32904.
Mid-East Mfg can be contacted thru my web page. Address below.
Also the "Bodhran page" can be accessed there, too.
BTW, the joke about the pen knife in another response should be attributed
to Seamus Ennis, the Uileann pipes player. <grin!>
--
lock...@locksley.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 CyberMongol Ltd
"Do not ascribe your own motivations to others. At best,
it will break your heart, at worst, get you dead."
song lyrics at mac9.ucc.nau.edu /pub/Misc/SCA/Ioseph
tapes at 1-510-735-9663 ***** HOMEPAGE AT http://www.locksley.com/locksley
ALL unsolicited e-mail advertising is deleted unread.
markth
>Thanks,
>Mindie Santi
You can try contacting Malachy Kearns in Ireland. There's a good
change they're the ones who made the bodhran you purchased.
They have an instructional video that is very good. Runs about $30 or
so after conversion.
Their number is
1-800-864-2918
mar...@cris.com
Josh Mittleman
In article <8267466...@intlog.demon.co.uk>, Ger...@intlog.demon.co.uk (Gervais Currie) writes:
> With a penknife.
Been there, done that.
It sounds better with a tipper.
(The joke, by the way, was originally told by Seamus Ennis.)
===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
Vivienne Bloomfield
>I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
>how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
>online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
>Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
>Thanks,
>Mindie Santi
Have a look at web sites
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/beginner.html
or
buy "The Bodhran Book" "The Bodhran Video" or "The Bodhran Demo
Cassette" by Steafan Hannigan. All published by Ossian
Vivienne
Jeff Willner
Santi ) wrote:
> I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
> how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
> online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
> Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Mindie Santi
I don't have the information at hand here at work, but House of Musical
Traditions in Maryland (Takoma Park, I believe) specializes in traditional
acoustic instruments and instruction, and would probably be your best bet
in the area. Also, Myron Bertholtz (sp?) is a fairly well-known bodhran
and bones player (he also teaches bodhran at the Swannanoa Gathering) in
the DC area, and is someone you might contact for instruction.
Cheers,
Jeff Willner
--
Jeff Willner, Ph.D. I speak only for myself
Department of Psychology jwil...@runet.edu
Box 6946 jwil...@james.psych.runet.edu
Radford University (540) 831-5341 (voice)
Radford, VA 24142 (540) 831-3116 (fax)
Arval d'Espas Nord
In article <4i6lbv$7...@reader2.ix.netcom.com>, min...@ix.netcom.com(Mindie Santi ) writes:
> I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
> how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
> online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
> Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
Check out the bodhran page at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/bodhran.html.
It contains a beginner's guide, plus lists of teachers, books, and videos
that can help you learn to play.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Tracy
> =
> min...@ix.netcom.com(Mindie Santi ) wrote:
> =
> >I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
> >how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
> >online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
> >Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
> =
> >Thanks,
> >Mindie Santi
Hey Mindie and all other aspiring bodhr=E1nists. Here's your on-line
bodhr=E1n resource:
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/bodhran.html
-- =
Tracy
tre...@hevanet.com
Cynde D. Beals
min...@ix.netcom.com(Mindie Santi ) wrote:
>I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
>how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
>online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
>Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
Check with the Alexandria Pipe band in Alexandria, VA. Maybe someone in the
band teaches. I was learning how to play, got real good and fast - until I
threw my shoulder out!
Cynde
C. Beals cbe...@pillarco.com
The Pillar Company "Support for your business"
David Heatherly
(Gervais Currie) writes:
>
>With a penknife.
>
>
Fie, Fie on you, gentle jokester!!! I just ordered Chris Caswell's
"How to play the bodhran" video from Lark in the Morning for my dear
hubbie who is desparately trying to accompany me on martial music! I
hope it's good--having seen Chris in concert would lead me to believe
he's very expertise....
Sam the harper
Bill Edwards
>
>I have a bodhran which I purchased in Ireland. I would love to learn
>how to play it. Does anyone know if there's something written or files
>online that give instruction? I haven't found anyone in the
>Washington,DC are who gives instruction. Any ideas?
>
>Mindie Santi
>
>
By far the best way to learn/play the bodhran is in complete solitude,
in a locked, sound-proofed room, in a ruined castle, on an un-inhabited
Scottish Island ;-)
At least that way, you won't throw any _musicians_ off their beat.
(Damn those flames are hot - I can feel them already)
--
Bill Edwards \ May the skin of your a*se never cover a bodhran /
Aye on the fiddle \ - Hamish Imlach - /
Aberdeen, Scotland \ Scottish Wit & Raconteur /
da...@cyberramp.net
>
>In article <8267466...@intlog.demon.co.uk>, Ger...@intlog.demon.co.uk (Gervais Currie) writes:
>> With a penknife.
>
>
>It sounds better with a tipper.
>
>(The joke, by the way, was originally told by Seamus Ennis.)
I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
bodhrans... I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
no drumming!
BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
>Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
>
da...@cyberramp.net
Oh okay, I see now.
>> I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
>>irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
>>no drumming!
>
>In that case they were hardly 'great'.
So... do you actually have anything at all to *say* in your followup?
>>BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
>
>This question (and the rather course way it is phrased) merely
>emphasises the fact that you do not know what you are talking about.
Was the 'penknife' comment by Ennis is supposed to be taken seriously, though?
Of course not, Ennis was joking. So was I.
>Andrew
So, again, why would anyone be so hostile (presumably) to bodhrans? They
invariably 'fill out' a song. Of course some songs don't call for it, but then
again not all instruments are needed all the time anyway.
I attended the North Texas Irish Festival this past weekend, and saw several
bands which had no drumming. Altan is considered a good band, yet I think
their performance would've been improved had the bodhran's mike been turned
up.
There's no need to be cocky, I just wondered why anyone would instantly
object to drumming.
Anselm Lingnau
> I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
> bodhrans... I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
> irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
> no drumming!
There is a fine line between somebody who *plays* the bodhran and
somebody in a group of five whacking away on bodhrans at the same time
until you can't hear the other instruments, and of course everybody
among them is half a beat off everybody else.
*One* bodhran per tune, IMHO, is the absolute maximum. It frequently
doesn't hurt to stay below it :^)
> BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
You seem to like the bodhran more than the Uillean pipes.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
Just because NT is bulky, slow, overhyped, overpriced, and late doesn't mean
it's well-designed. It just means it's bulky, slow, overhyped, overpriced,
and late. --- Robert Sanders
Andrew Pickering
>I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
>bodhrans
Experience.
> I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
>irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
>no drumming!
In that case they were hardly 'great'.
>BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
This question (and the rather course way it is phrased) merely
emphasises the fact that you do not know what you are talking about.
Andrew
Henrik Norbeck
>>>I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
>>>bodhrans
>>
>>Experience.
>
>
I've had bad experiences with people who think they can play the bodhran (but
can't), and join in a session, happily banging away in the wrong rhythm. On
the other hand I've met people who can't play the fiddle or accordeon (or
even worse, the pipes) but still play in public. Just as bad (and a penknife
probably would do a good job there too).
>>> I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
>>>irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
>>>no drumming!
>>
>>In that case they were hardly 'great'.
I agree that if a band doesn't sound great without a drum it probably won't
sound great with it either.
>
>So... do you actually have anything at all to *say* in your followup?
>
>>>BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
Seamus Ennis was a famous uillean piper and collector of tunes.
(snipped away the rest)
Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1789/
John Ward
On 18 Mar 1996, Anselm Lingnau wrote:
> There is a fine line between somebody who *plays* the bodhran and
> somebody in a group of five whacking away on bodhrans at the same time
> until you can't hear the other instruments, and of course everybody
> among them is half a beat off everybody else.
>
> *One* bodhran per tune, IMHO, is the absolute maximum. It frequently
> doesn't hurt to stay below it :^)
OTOH, if there are two good and sensitive bodhran players, the results
can be marvelous!!! I am fortunate to have two such players in my band.
John
hig...@ebi.ac.uk
The general hostility to bodhrans arises from the perception that they are
easy to play and from the ease with which any old drunk can just start
playing them at sessions. When played badly (the usual mode) they are dreadful.
Experienced musicians have been known to cry upon seeing someone walk into
a pub, mid session, armed with one. When played well, bodhran accompaniement
(how do you spell that?) can be sublime. Ennis was probably only half
joking.
Uncle Des
In article <4ikag4$h...@newshost.cyberramp.net>, da...@cyberramp.net writes:
> In <4ij8c4$6...@roadrunner.atlas.co.uk>, and...@atlas.co.uk (Andrew Pickering) writes:
>>da...@cyberramp.net wrote:
>>>I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
>>>bodhrans
>>
>>Experience.
>
> Oh okay, I see now.
>
>>> I can't tell you how many times I'm heard some great
>>>irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
>>>no drumming!
>>
>>In that case they were hardly 'great'.
>
> So... do you actually have anything at all to *say* in your followup?
>
>>>BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
>>
>>This question (and the rather course way it is phrased) merely
>>emphasises the fact that you do not know what you are talking about.
>
Magorn
There is a reason that the bodhran is called the Irish Heartbeat, and
without the dark, earthy, primal sound of a properly played bhodran,
Celtic music is not the what it could be. The ancient sound of the
bhodran lets you literally FEEL the age of the music and wonder how many
thousand years those sounds have echoed from the hills. in the hands of a
master like Barbara Ryan of Iona, the bodhran gets the respect that it
should, and sounds like it could.
Patrick Gillard
lbox.swipnet.se> writes
(snip)
>I've had bad experiences with people who think they can play the bodhran (but
>can't), and join in a session, happily banging away in the wrong rhythm. On
>the other hand I've met people who can't play the fiddle or accordeon (or
>even worse, the pipes) but still play in public. Just as bad
>
(snip)
I think you are right about the rhythm being the key thing, Henrik.
People sometimes don't realise that rhythm, not speed, is the key to
Irish music. If you ain't got the rhythm, whatever instrument you're
playing, you should really ask yourself: "Is this the right music for
me? Should't I just go off and join a techno band where the machines
take care of the rhythm?"
All of this applies no matter how long you've been playing. I know
people who have been playing Irish music for ten years who still haven't
figured it out.
Having said that, if you have a bodhran player with good rhythm, no
matter how long they've been playing, it always adds to the music.
--
Patrick Gillard
Arval d'Espas Nord
Magorn <mgal...@dcez.dcez.com> writes:
> There is a reason that the bodhran is called the Irish Heartbeat, and
> without the dark, earthy, primal sound of a properly played bhodran,
> Celtic music is not the what it could be. The ancient sound of the
> bhodran lets you literally FEEL the age of the music and wonder how many
> thousand years those sounds have echoed from the hills.
I hate to burst your bubble, but nearly all of modern Irish traditional
music dates back no further than the 19th century, if it is that old. Some
tunes date back to O'Carolan in the 17th century, but they are exceptional.
The style of bodhran playing used today dates back no further than the
1950s, and the bodhran as part of Irish performance and dance music is
probably no older than the first quarter of this century.
Tracy
> >>I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
> >>bodhrans
The bodhr=E1n is like a Rottweiler. They have a bad reputation because
they are very powerful and have potential to be quite dangerous, yet
if properly socialized, can be quite sweet and a joy to be around.
-- =
Tracy
tre...@hevanet.com
da...@cyberramp.net
>In article <4iikpb$a...@newshost.cyberramp.net>, <da...@cyberramp.net> wrote:
>
>> I wonder why anybody would have that hostile attitude about
>> irish band really jam... but sound 'hollow' because there was
>> no drumming!
>
>somebody in a group of five whacking away on bodhrans at the same time
>until you can't hear the other instruments, and of course everybody
>among them is half a beat off everybody else.
Oh... I see. :-) Yea, I see how that might happen.
And, true, as a drum instrument, it's the bodhran's player first duty to
keep a beat.
>*One* bodhran per tune, IMHO, is the absolute maximum. It frequently
>doesn't hurt to stay below it :^)
Well, I have heard very soft 'bodhraning' before. It's not so bad.
Percussion can give a really nice quality to music.. driving. A really great
jamming jig with lots of melody instruments sounds downright.. awesome
when there is also a thundering bodhran.
>> BTW, who the hell is Seamus Ennis?
>
>You seem to like the bodhran more than the Uillean pipes.
:-) You could say that. Pipes aren't too bad, though they can sound
irritating. Reeds, y'know. Thanks for the info.
THanks for the followup!
>Anselm Lingnau ......................... lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
da...@cyberramp.net
>
>The general hostility to bodhrans arises from the perception that they are
>easy to play and from the ease with which any old drunk can just start
>playing them at sessions. When played badly (the usual mode) they are dreadful.
>Experienced musicians have been known to cry upon seeing someone walk into
>a pub, mid session, armed with one. When played well, bodhran accompaniement
>(how do you spell that?) can be sublime. Ennis was probably only half
>joking.
>
>Uncle Des
I see. Thanks for the reply. I haven't experienced 'poor' bodhran
playing before.
da...@cyberramp.net
>matter how long they've been playing, it always adds to the music.
I agree totally. As long as they know the basic triple and four-beat
technique, and can *maintain* it, the drummings improves the music.
By itself, it might be 'mundane', but then again it isn't by itself very much.
>Patrick Gillard
Stuart Joseph
>
>
>Magorn <mgal...@dcez.dcez.com> writes:
The ancient sound of the
>> bhodran lets you literally FEEL the age of the music and wonder how many
>> thousand years those sounds have echoed from the hills.
>The style of bodhran playing used today dates back no further than the
>1950s, and the bodhran as part of Irish performance and dance music is
>probably no older than the first quarter of this century.
>
>======================================================
=====================
>Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
I have heard 2 stories about the origin of the bodhran and like everything else,
what you believe depends on your interpretation of the facts.
First- the bodhran descended from the seive used for seperating chaff from grain
and it goes back a long way.
Second, the bodhran was introduced to Ireland in the 19th Century by minstrels
(the blackface kind), who brought over their tambourines from the US and it
caught on. The tambourine, of course, coming from the Black slaves in the US,
who might have brought them over from Africa.
A greta many of the Minstrels were Irish performers, who couldn't get work
themselves due to the bigotry of most of the citizens of the US in the 1840's-
1880's (remember the NY Draft Riots of the Civil War?), and it is said that they
brought the tambourine to Ireland (as well as the banjo).
The Irish also call the bodhran the Tambourine and sometimes add rattles to it.
Of course, frame drums are themselves an ancient instrument and known in
most cultures around the world, so who can really say.
IMHO, bodhrans add a lot to Celtic music and when they were first introduced
is immaterial. They are used today in Celtic music and they are here to stay.
Folk music by it's very nature is a living, ever-changing musical tradition and
nothing remains the same- times change and the music along with it.
Stuart
Celtic Cultures
http://www.sover.net/~celtic/
Magorn
sorry but they have recovered Bhodran frames from celtic burial sites
stretching back into the bronze age...The notion that all percussion is
Africian orignated is revisionist nonsense. The same is true of the
contention that Celtic folk music is only a century or so old...In the
late 18th century the city fathers of Belfast, alarmed that traditional
music was dying out invited all the itinerant harpers and musicians to a
festival, and hired a crew of music students to listen to and transcribe
the music, thus the music was first Written down in the early 1800's but
the harpers claimed the musical descent from time immemorial, and given
the celtic emphasis on oral tradition there is no eason to dibelieve them
Eoghan Craig Ballard
Magorn <mgal...@dcez.dcez.com> wrote:
> sorry but they have recovered Bhodran frames from celtic burial sites
> stretching back into the bronze age...The notion that all percussion is
Dream on Magorn.
DownBelowJack
Stuart Joseph <cel...@sover.net> wrote:
>In article <4ip5pn$g...@panix.com>, mit...@panix.com says...
>I have heard 2 stories about the origin of the bodhran and like everything else,
>what you believe depends on your interpretation of the facts.
>First- the bodhran descended from the seive used for seperating chaff from grain
>and it goes back a long way.
>Second, the bodhran was introduced to Ireland in the 19th Century by minstrels
>(the blackface kind), who brought over their tambourines from the US and it
>caught on. The tambourine, of course, coming from the Black slaves in the US,
>who might have brought them over from Africa.
It might be worth pointing out that there is a very interesting CD out
called, I think, "Musicasz" (or something like that- the final sound is a
"sh"). The subtitle is something like "the lost Jewish folk music of
Transylvania"- the disc is a recording of tunes remembered by gypsies as
having been played by Jewish players at weddings and festivals. (the
original players were apparently all killed in the holocaust)
Anyway, the point of this is two-fold. There's a picture in the package of
a band featuring a few fiddles, a string bass of some desription, and a
frame drum about the size of a bodhran (although no tipper is in view).
The other thing I noticed was that a number of the tunes have parts which
could have been played at any session- perfect Irish reels. Except
they're Jewish folk tunes, as filtered through the memories of gypsies.
So whatever you want to make of this, I think it's indicative that a)the
tunes are older than "fifty years" or so and b)_someone_ was accompanying
those tunes on a round frame drum about a foot and a half in diameter
more than fifty years ago.
-jon
Anselm Lingnau
> thus the music was first Written down in the early 1800's but
> the harpers claimed the musical descent from time immemorial, and given
> the celtic emphasis on oral tradition there is no eason to dibelieve them
But there is quite a difference between what the harpers used to play
and your average Irish fiddler's repertoire of session tunes. Some of
the stuff may be rather old (though I doubt that it goes back more than
a couple of hundred years), but many of the more popular `traditional'
tunes are really quite recent.
Anselm
--
Anselm Lingnau ......................... lin...@tm.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de
That man tae man the world o'er/Shall brothers be an' a' that! --- Robert Burns
Arval d'Espas Nord
> So whatever you want to make of this, I think it's indicative that a)the
> tunes are older than "fifty years" or so and b)_someone_ was accompanying
> those tunes on a round frame drum about a foot and a half in diameter
> more than fifty years ago.
Of course. Framedrums are found throughout most of the world and are
undoubtedly very ancient. But the bodhran is a particular kind of frame
drum, both in construction and style of play.
===========================================================================
Henrik Norbeck
>Turlough Carolan lived from 1670 - 1738.
>If you look at the titles he composed you find airs, jigs, planxty and
>laments.
>Some of his tunes he composed, some of them were traditional tunes.
And like all "composers" of those days he borrowed a lot of material from
other tunes and songs.
>Several of them were published in a collection by Edward Bunting in
>London 1796 called: A general collection of the Ancient Irish Music.
>This means that some of these tunes were looked upon as ancient in
>1796!
Edward Bunting considered them ancient anyway.
>It is true that many of the popular dance tunes are much younger, but
>some of the jigs might very well be over 300 years old.
Some of the dance tunes played nowadays are probably a few hundred years old,
for example those which originally were marches, but they may have changed
a lot over the centuries, and tunes can even jump between categories. A march
might be turned into a jig, which might turn into a reel, which might turn
into a polka.
>Not to mention the slow airs. They are a part of a vocal tradition
>going back at least 700 years, and very similar in style to the
>"kvedar"-style in Norway. Because of the Viking raids??
Probably because of common Indo-european ancestors. This is the way that slow
songs are (or were) traditionally sung over most of Europe.
--
Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden
henrik....@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1789/ Irish & Swedish Tunebook
Arne Moslaatten
Turlough Carolan lived from 1670 - 1738.
If you look at the titles he composed you find airs, jigs, planxty and
laments.
Some of his tunes he composed, some of them were traditional tunes.
Several of them were published in a collection by Edward Bunting in
London 1796 called: A general collection of the Ancient Irish Music.
This means that some of these tunes were looked upon as ancient in
1796!
It is true that many of the popular dance tunes are much younger, but
some of the jigs might very well be over 300 years old.
Not to mention the slow airs. They are a part of a vocal tradition
going back at least 700 years, and very similar in style to the
"kvedar"-style in Norway. Because of the Viking raids??
--
Arne Moslåtten
amos...@sn.no
C. Clark
>It might be worth pointing out that there is a very interesting CD out
>called, I think, "Musicasz" (or something like that- the final sound is
a
>"sh"). The subtitle is something like "the lost Jewish folk music of
>Transylvania"- the disc is a recording of tunes remembered by gypsies as
>having been played by Jewish players at weddings and festivals.
Muzsika/s (diagonal mark / over the a) is the band. In modern Hungarian,
z is dental and voiced (as in English), s is palatal and unvoiced (like
English sh). The name of the disc is Ma/ramaros--The Lost Jewish Music of
Transylavania (Hannibal Records, HNCD 1373, distributed by Rykodisc). The
cover photo is from 1895, and the drummer is apparently playing a frame
drum with his hand.
It's not quite exactly Celtic, but it's good music.
Alex Clark ccl...@vicon.net
Eoghan Craig Ballard
> stretching back into the bronze age...The notion that all percussion is
The facts remain, whether you wish to call those who point them out
"revisionist" or not, that on the evidential level the use of the Bodhran
as a musical instrument in Ireland is completely modern. It was used as a
ritual instrument in an extremely limited context in an extremely
circumscribed area geographically for one or two days of the year. Apart
from that, it served as a seive. There is a fair amount of photographic
evidence that shows a dirth of , nay a virtual nonexistance of framedrums
both from the pre-revival days of Irish music during our century and the
last and earlier graphic evidence that concurs on that point during both
pre and post invasion Ireland.
>The same is true of the contention that Celtic folk music is only a
century >or so old...
Virtually all the existing dance music in Ireland and Scotland dates,
rhythmically and structurally to a period after 1680. There is some small
evidence to suggest that certain melodies predate that, but they are rare.
>In the late 18th century the city fathers of Belfast, alarmed that
>traditional >music was dying out invited all the itinerant harpers and
musicians >to a >festival, and hired a crew of music students to listen to
and transcribe
>the music, thus the music was first Written down in the early 1800's but
>the harpers claimed the musical descent from time immemorial, and given
>the celtic emphasis on oral tradition there is no eason to dibelieve them
One would be unwise to suppose that because oral tradition, which has it's
own reasons for claiming longevity, says so, that it is true in spite of
documentable evidence to the contrary. Most of the harpers you speak of
were no longer playing in a traditional style nor even traditional
melodies or on a traditional instrument. Only one of them playerd on the
old style harp in the older manner, with long nails upon metal strings.
That was Hemphill. It is also important to remember that they weren't folk
musicians. Harping was never a people's music. It was the music of the
aristocracy, and as such was art music, subject to a formalism unfamiliar
to folk musicians. How old the style, already superceded by the time of
Bunting, really was is anybodies' guess. There is however nothing beyond
the desire for it to be so, to commend the claim of great age over that of
a more recent origin.
One final point before I end. Why this need to have everything be old? How
does age offer any better quality or value to the music. It really is
quite capable of standing on it's own merit.
Dave & Laura McKinstry
the last 200 years or so.) therefor not period (pre-1600.)
My findings on the subject:
In 1792, Edward Bunting was hired to write down all the music the
harpers played at the Belfast Harp Festival, since no written Irish
music existed at that point. This is the oldest RECORD we have of Irish
music, _to_my_knowledge_ I am more than willing to be corrected if
someone else has information that I don't. I have done research on
this; I'm a harper, my persona is late period Irish. BTW - Scots music
is better documented for period use, and there's more of it.
Now, at the Festival in 1792, there was a REALLY old guy (Hempson, 92)
who played the harp DIFFERENTLY from everyone else at the festival. He
plucked the wire strings of his harp with long, curved nails. This
style dates back to his learning, which supposedly occurred in the early
1700's and, to hear him talk, pre-dates that as well (his teacher had to
have learned it that way.) His music, also, was different than the rest
of the players. Therefor, other than Hempson, the harpers whose music
was recorded post-dates period. I'm in the process of getting my hands
on that book, my information to this point has been second hand, but the
book is virtually the BIBLE of ancient Irish music and each reference I
find to it coroborates this statement.
The harpers were told that the festival was a contest for money, which
it was, but the REAL intent was to record the music. Unfortunately,
Hempson was a crotchety old guy who refused to play more stuff for
Bunting on the grounds that no one at the festival would understand the
ancient music. Even the things that he played at the festival are
suspect, and may have been more recent. Bunting managed to get a few
bars out of him, and that was really it. One point in favor of
Hempson's music possibly being the more ancient stuff - he refused to
play O'Carollan's music because he didn't like that "modern stuff."
O'Carollan, by the way, post-dates period by 50-100 years (he started
harping in the late 1600s.) There is Irish music out there that IS
period (for example, "Llewyn On", The Ash Grove - oops! That's Welsh!
Never mind.) But it's hard to find. Be VERY suspect of Irish folk music
as period music. In most cases, it's not, and it's VERY hard to
document when it is, since 1792 was really the first record of Irish
music. Before that, you have to find references in period literature,
then hope that the song that appears in 1792 by the same name is
actually the same song, which it might not be.
Final note: "The Ash Grove" was played in a different mode 50 years ago
than it is played in today, at least in the countryside of Wales. Our
standard scale, Aeolian, the Do Re Mi Fa Sol, is very recent. Dorian,
our standard minor scale, existed in period, but a lot of things were in
other scales (Lydian, for example, which might be what I heard "Ash
Grove" in at the workshop I went to, where I heard about it.) See
Ioseph's works in the Rialto archives for more information on
ancient modes, if you're interested - he documents it very well.
Lark of Cire Freunlaven Laura McKinstry
Steppes, Ansteorra Dallas, TX
Jen
>>Not to mention the slow airs. They are a part of a vocal tradition
>>going back at least 700 years, and very similar in style to the
>>"kvedar"-style in Norway. Because of the Viking raids??
These ancient slow airs are referred to as "sean nos" which means
"old style". Of course, it depends on who you ask; Sir Severin calls
the faster stuff "Wanker Music"!
Jen of Wyvernwood
Eoghan Craig Ballard
> "old style". Of course, it depends on who you ask;
,
Bear in mind that "sean nos" is not a musical term and also not a very precise
term regardless of what it refers to. It simply means "old way". In
contemporary
society the "old way" of doing anything may be ancient or it may be 20 years
,
old. I have heard the term "sean nos" used by native Gaelic speakers to
refer to
everything from old musical styles to the way in which they worked in factories
prior to computerization.
Tracy
century, especially in the South and Appalachian mountains, and of course
they brought their music and instruments with them. Because of the relative
isolation of the Appalachians, older forms of music and speech were preserved
much longer than in the rest of the U.S.
Does anyone know whether a frame drum was/is used in Appalachian music
making? If so, this could be good evidence of the age of the bodhrán in
Irish music--or argue against it by its absence.
--
Tracy
tre...@hevanet.com
------------------
ghost
>Virtually all the existing dance music in Ireland and Scotland dates,
>rhythmically and structurally to a period after 1680. There is some small
>evidence to suggest that certain melodies predate that, but they are rare.
>
>own reasons for claiming longevity, says so, that it is true in spite of
>documentable evidence to the contrary. Most of the harpers you speak of
>were no longer playing in a traditional style nor even traditional
>melodies or on a traditional instrument. Only one of them playerd on the
>old style harp in the older manner, with long nails upon metal strings.
>That was Hemphill. It is also important to remember that they weren't folk
>musicians. Harping was never a people's music. It was the music of the
>aristocracy, and as such was art music, subject to a formalism unfamiliar
>to folk musicians. How old the style, already superceded by the time of
>Bunting, really was is anybodies' guess. There is however nothing beyond
>the desire for it to be so, to commend the claim of great age over that of
>a more recent origin.
According to Anne Heymann, re-creator of technique for playing wire-strung
Irish harp complete with extra-long fingernails, some of the repertoire
of the ancient (pre O'Carolan, pre Italian-music-hits-Ireland) Irish harp has
been absorbed into the Scottish bagpipe repertoire. Perhaps it always did
share that repertoire.
She talked about this on one of her albums (Queen of Harps, or the one with
Alison Kinnaird on gut-strung Scottish harp).
I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be at least probable that 2 styles of
music co-existed for some time, the spritelier "folk" stuff that merged with
the Italian style to become the very lyrical Irish music we know today, & the
much more modal & sparse-sounding wire-strung harp repertoire (which sounds a
lot more like ancient British music than modern Irish music). Also check out
those very sparse Irish carols (Norain Niriain <sp?> has a few albums out of
Irish liturgical music, sticking closer to an older form than Loreena McKennitt
does on some of the same material).
Anne Heymann gives reasons for damping techniques that she's developed,
& for one long piece gives a detailed explanation of why she changed the
arrangement from the traditional Scottish bagpipe arrangement she's
borrowing. Her results sound to me like she's trying to bring the music
more in line with the sound of modern Irish music (& in fact those damped
strings still ring out enough in live performance to put her music back into
an older-sounding form). Triona O'Domnhail, by contrast, playing
"O'Carolan's Farewell to Music", his only ancient-sounding piece I'm sure
of (isn't there one other?) on a harpsichord, using technique I'll bet has
modern harpsichordists rolling their eyes, & not damping anything (I don't
believe you can anyway?) makes the harpsichord sound more like what I'd like to
think the ancient harp sounds like than Heymann-on-record does. But I love
them both, so who cares?
I also think you have a misconception of how much pomp & circumstance went
with the old Irish aristocracy & their music; from everything I've read they
were a lot closer to the people in their clans than was European aristocracy
to their laboring peasants, & their music way have been likewise.
Magorn
now as the one who started this brangle over age...I did want to point
out that someone made an excellent point, about why does the age of the
music matter. As a music lover, to me at least, it doesn't. But as a
lover of history the question is oneof intense interest, simply because
we know that the celts have been playing music since time immemorial, and
if the music we have today as "celtic music" is not the same as what they
played in earlier time periods, the what DID they play in the middle
ages? It hurts to think that perhaps an entire body of music might be
lost to the ages without a trace of any kind. In the same vein since a
lot of Folk music is dated post 1680; when
Elizabeth, ordered the harps rounded up and burned (cursed be her memory)
and the Bards banned, is it at all likely that the renegade bards adpated
older tunes for new instruments?
Scott Jorgensen
>now as the one who started this brangle over age...I did want to >point
out that someone made an excellent point, about why does the age >of
the music matter. As a music lover, to me at least, it doesn't. But
time >immemorial, and if the music we have today as "celtic music" is not >the same as what they played in earlier time periods, the=
what DID >they play in the middle ages?
This has been of intense interest to me for a long time now, as I
play the Celtic harp (both wire and gut strung types). Of the 200+ songs that I know, I've never pulled any from written music. Th=
ey've all been relayed to me by ear, or aurally, and herein lies the beauty of Celtic Music and it's oral (aural) tradition. Of cou=
rse I acknowledge that we don't play the same music that existed in the Middle Ages. But the traditional attitude of Celtic music i=
s that the player does not even play the same song the same way twice, let alone from generation to generation. What I DO know is t=
hat there is a particular moving magic that exists in the music, that has somehow made it from being processed through countless gen=
erations of players. This shimmering simplicity, this "green ray", as Van Morrison puts it, is what is passed down and continues to=
be the life blood of the music form. As long as the green ray is present, it doesn't matter what generation plays it; it is and re=
mains Celtic, and the tradition continues in the way tradition should, which is by the act of doing. The day that Celtic music is s=
et into a particular written form and played, unchanging, conforming to that writ, is the day it dies.
> It hurts to think that perhaps an entire body of music might be >lost to the ages without a trace of any kind. In the same vein =
since >a lot of Folk music is dated post 1680; when Elizabeth, ordered the >harps rounded up and burned (cursed be her memory) and t=
he >Bards banned, is it at all likely that the renegade bards adpated >older tunes for new instruments?
Again, the beauty of the music is that it can be adapted and relevant to our lives NOW. It can stir beauty, pathos, MAGIC in=
a way that makes sense to us. Some of the few examples of "medieval"
music that have been discovered have left me scratching my head when I heard them,. because they come from a remote time, situation =
and musical flavoring that is completely foreign to my life.
Not to say they CAN'T be wonderful (some are, like "Saltarello" or "Chanter"), but remember that they were being played to a complet=
ely different world. As to the "banned bards" question, I'm sure that the bards, as also did many practitioners of the Old Religion=
, resorted to "camouflaging" their practice by hiding their art in cleverly worded verse, or hidden poems. Nostradamus, even though=
he had the patronage of royalty (which is clearly the only thing that stood between him and a burning stake), had to be careful tha=
t his prophecies not be seen as an application of the Black Art - so he hid them in quatrain poetry. At the time you state above (1=
680), the harp was beginning to fall from favor in many parts of the Isles, for mostly political-religious reasons. It's absence wa=
s being filled by an instrument growing in popularity among the aristocracy - the lute, which for a time was used in duets with the =
clarsach (harp).
Sorry to go off like this - it's a topic of keen interest to me....
Sonas,
Scott Jorgensen Clan Mitchell
Tyler Smith
: Here's a thought--A lot of Irish settled the United States in the previous
: they brought their music and instruments with them. Because of the relative
: isolation of the Appalachians, older forms of music and speech were preserved
: much longer than in the rest of the U.S.
This is assuming the Appalachians didn't make any changes to the music
once they set up shop far from their peers. Maybe they represent a
small, yet incredibly creative group of innovators? This is pure
speculation on my part...
tyler.
ryan...@gold.tc.umn.edu
>tyler.
Its my understanding Appalachian music is more influenced by Scottish
and English music than Irish music. And in the south, if I'm
understanding the region to which you are referring--it would have
been the musical influences of the so-called Scotch-Irish who
emigrated to the US pre-Famine & pre-Civil War. The major influences
of Irish music in the US came later, in post-Famine and post-Civil War
eras, and the influence of the Diaspora migrations that brought the
music would have been mostly contained at that time to cities, i.e.
NY, Phillie, San Fran, Chicago and such like, where the Irish
emigrated in large numbers.
Most post-Famine Irish emigrants were not interested in farming for
obvious reasons, and tended to locate where there was work on the
railroads & canals, in mining towns, milling towns, etc. They were
almost exclusively urban rather than rural dwellers, and the men
tended more toward migratory work, the women towards domestic service
& milling. But people moved around once they got here too, which gets
very interesting. The Band, a Us/Canadian trad/rock band of the 60s &
70s reflect this trend--there was a pretty large community of Celts
who migrated from the Carolinas to the prairies of Canada, and as we
know, Canadian Celts found their way to New Orleans too. The Band had
two members from Toronto too--one with Latin ancestry (Richard Manuel)
and one with Native American ancestry from Onondonga Nation I think
(Robbie Robertson). The history of The Band would make a very
interesting study of the migration of the music in North America,
thats for sure!
The field of Celtic music in the Diaspora communities is a
fascinating, but fledgling field right now. I don't know of anyone
who has written specifically on the subject (although if anyone knows
of reading material on it I'd love to know about it!)
Janet
DizCat
of points:
>> nearly all of modern Irish traditional music dates back no further
>>than the 19th century, if it is that old. Some tunes date back to
>>O'Carolan in the 17th century, but they are exceptional.
It may reflect an approximate time when the music was "written down" and
O'Carolan was a wonderous composer.... But it remains virtually impossible
to date the origins of tunes that are even today passed on by and large by
ear and not paper.
Check your O'Carolan history and you will find that he and others of his
contemporaries freely addmited that a number of their compositions were
based upon other tunes or snippets or tunes that either evolved or were
faded away as the names changed with the passing from one musician to
another.
>>The style of bodhran playing used today dates back no further than >>the
1950s, and the bodhran as part of Irish performance and >>dance music is
probably no older than the first quarter of this >>century.
The Bodhran as an insturment is one of the universally oldest forms of
drum. The simple frame drum. The ideas on it's origin are varied as one
would expect. One train of thought is that it evolved from a sieve or
winnowing frame for use in agricultural festivals. That possibility would
make it substansially older than the 1950's. The details of it's form can
show quite a variety but in essence it remains what drums have been for
thousands of years. One of the easiest to identify relatives is the
tambourine. Which of course evolved in another direction. The snare drum
is another frame drum that has undergone many evolutions.
As for playing style; again there are many related one handed styles to be
found round the world. Percussion is as old as mankind itself. If one is
asking what came first the chicken or the egg, music historians will
"mostly" agree that percussion and voice came first with other instruments
following.
So you see it is never so black an white as you would paint it, to state
the origins of anything so ancient. "There is more history that was never
written, than there are books."
Monica Cellio
>drum. The simple frame drum.
No one is arguing that frame drums aren't old. They're quite old. But
frame drums played with one- or two-headed beaters in that rotating fashion
unique to the bodhran is *not* documentably older than this century.
Has anyone found anything that could be a beater along with all those
remnants of frame drums?
I'd *like* the bodhran to be pre-1600 European, as then I could use
it freely in the SCA, but it just isn't. Wishing won't make it so.
Ellisif
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjc/ellisif.html
--
--
Telerama has been having sporadic problems with incoming mail. If you were
expecting a reply to something you sent me and didn't get it, please resend.
Eoghan Craig Ballard
wrote:
>According to Anne Heymann, re-creator of technique for playing wire-strung
>Irish harp complete with extra-long fingernails,..I can't see any reason
why >it shouldn't be at least probable that 2 styles of
>music co-existed for some time, the spritelier "folk" stuff that merged with
> the Italian style to become the very lyrical Irish music we know today, & the
> much more modal & sparse-sounding wire-strung harp repertoire (which sounds a
> lot more like ancient British music than modern Irish music)...
> Anne Heymann gives reasons for damping techniques that she's developed,
> & for one long piece gives a detailed explanation of why she changed the
> arrangement from the traditional Scottish bagpipe arrangement she's
> borrowing....> think the ancient harp sounds like than Heymann-on-record
does. >But I love them both, so who cares?
>
> I also think you have a misconception of how much pomp & circumstance went
> with the old Irish aristocracy & their music; from everything I've read they
> were a lot closer to the people in their clans than was European aristocracy
> to their laboring peasants, & their music way have been likewise.
First of all, Anne, who besides being an excellent harper is a darling
person has RECREATED the style. While she has paid attention to historical
detail, and in my opinion is more accurate in her approach than most
others, she'll be the first to admit that she bows in favor of a
"practical" approach. After all playing Brass strung harp with concertina
and harmonium is hardly traditional.
As to enjoying the music, I agree from the listening point. Historical
details don't get in the way of my enjoying music. I also love bagpipes
combined with electric guitar and saxophones.
As to pomp and ceremony, I don't recall using anything close to that term.
I have read extensively about Gaelic culture in both Ireland and Scotland
in Gaelic as well as English, and will stick to my assertion that the
Gaelic world when it was independent of outside political and cultural
control, had very esoteric, in the academic definition of the term,
professional classes especially among musicians. Their music and training
would be beyond the reaches of untrained musicians, as it is well
documented as being both rigorous and lengthy.
Eoghan Craig Ballard
;-) and point out that while a few, and I suspect a very few examples of
older music, and then probably not MUCH older, has survived to the present
day, what hasn't changed is the celtic love of music and skill in music.
That is what we should be celebrating. If the stuff we play now is only
250 years old, then it is still older and much richer in diversity than
that of many other "folk" cultures. The standard of performance has also
been usually much higher than in some, but not all cultures.
Does anything older exist. Well, perhaps. There exists early Scottish
religious song. It sounds like plainsong, which it is, and is in Latin.
There is also Caoineadh, by which I do not mean the elaborate 14-16th c.
poems called caoineadh or marbhnughadh, but the related performance of
ritualized lamentation. In form and content it represents a performance
type found from Western Europe to Afganistan and elsewhere with remarkably
similar characteristics. This probably, of all existing, although I
believe it has truly passed out of existance by now, musical forms among
the celt deserves the term ancient. There are, fortunately, a very few
partial recordings of this. There are still a few who remember hearing it
as children or young adults. There are a few songs, especially among the
Scots Gaelic speakers that may date back to the Lordship of the Isles, but
then again, they may simply look back nostalgically to that time.
My point was and remains that we should be very, very careful of any and
all claims to antiquity, not because there might not be a grain of truth
to one or two of them but because not merely can we not prove it, but
there is a lot of evidence to contradict those claims. And, what real
value can be attached to antiquity? Better and more productive is the
question why people get so hung up over need for something to be ancient
to validate it. There is a history to the issue of authenticity in western
culture. It has to do with politics and nation building and is very much
implicated in this discussion. Start by looking at critiques of Herder, if
it interests you.
Dennis J. Gormley
->Here's a thought--A lot of Irish settled the United States in the previous
->century, especially in the South and Appalachian mountains, and of course
->they brought their music and instruments with them. Because of the relative
->isolation of the Appalachians, older forms of music and speech were preserved
->much longer than in the rest of the U.S.
->
->Does anyone know whether a frame drum was/is used in Appalachian music
->making? If so, this could be good evidence of the age of the bodhrán in
->Irish music--or argue against it by its absence.
->
->--
->Tracy
->tre...@hevanet.com
->------------------
Yes; they called it a banjo!
D
ghost
>In article <4jhb05$k...@necco.harvard.edu>, j...@endor.harvard.edu ( ghost )
>wrote:
>
>> with the old Irish aristocracy & their music; from everything I've read they
>> were a lot closer to the people in their clans than was European aristocracy
>> to their laboring peasants, & their music way have been likewise.
>As to pomp and ceremony, I don't recall using anything close to that term.
>I have read extensively about Gaelic culture in both Ireland and Scotland
>in Gaelic as well as English, and will stick to my assertion that the
>Gaelic world when it was independent of outside political and cultural
>control, had very esoteric, in the academic definition of the term,
>professional classes especially among musicians. Their music and training
>would be beyond the reaches of untrained musicians, as it is well
>documented as being both rigorous and lengthy.
Sure they were highly practised individuals (as are most of the
folk musicians that I know of today, including the ones who still have to
have day jobs; "untrained musician" is kind of a contradiction in terms)
but I don't believe the *music* they played was as esoteric
as the comparable music in the European courts.
The notated bagpipe music Heymann is taking some of her harp tunes from
& is verifying them against was the result of elaborate & rigorous
training. That it was such doesn't mean it sounds as rarified
(read "wimpified") or unneccesarily tricked-up as some of the "early music"
I've been subjected to. I get the idea that though harpers & pipers were of a
different guild than "chieftain" they were considered co-equals in many ways, &
were not just adornments to the court in the way medieval European court
musicians, or Middle Eastern & Far Eastern court musicians, for that matter,
were.
ryan...@gold.tc.umn.edu
yours Eoghan!
There is a tendency among many folk afficionados to idealize a
romanticized past of purportedly dead or endangered traditions of
questionable "authenticity," by attributing to them spectacularly
inaccurate "origins." Those who are inclined to view folk traditions
romantically are often appalled when the so-called "folk" decide for
themselves how they are going to use and recreate their own traditions
in a modern context--particularly when the "folk" are using and
re-creating traditions as social, cultural and political critique, or
(God forbid!) use keyboards and synthesizers and such like to perform
traditionally based repetoires in a modern way.
These attitudes tend to devalue the role and contributions of the
individual artist by demonizing artists who are perceived to be
negatively affecting "tradition" by doing what musicians always
do--innovating and borrowing in the creation of the music.
"Tradition" doesn't write lyrics and compose music and perform it,
individual human beings do.
The concept of anonymity of folk music comes from folklorists who
endeavored to define and hierarchically rank the folk music of the
world in relation to European art music, and in accordance with
Darwinian theory; and later, to provide the collectors of music rather
than the composers and arrangers of the music, with copyright
ownership of the "folk" artists' works and remuneration for it.
That's the story behind Alan Lomax and Leadbelly for instance--Lomax
copyrighted Leadbelly's tunes in his collections, depriving Leadbelly
of his right to ownership of his own compositions and arrangements,
and collection of royalties went to Lomax, not Leadbelly. This has
been standard operating procedure among folklorists and collectors
until very recently, when artists fought back against these acts of
cultural appropriation and artistic dispossesion by copyrighting the
music themselves.
The age of a composition has nothing to do with its authenticity, nor
does the length of time an instrument has been used within a music
culture have anything to do with authenticity. Nor does the delusion
that music has been composed by the "folk" and is therefore
"anonymous" determine authenticity. Traditional music is still being
composed, and new songs and tunes are entering the canon all the time,
while some old ones no longer get played. That's why we refer to it
as a living tradition. By definition, a living tradition can be
neither fixed nor static, although it must conform to a certain
culturally/musically specific form that defines the music, while
simultaneoulsy allowing for variation and innovation.
Authenticity is negotiated between performer and audience. Musican
and audience decide if something sounds--and therefore is
"traditional," irregardless of the age or origins of the music or the
musicians, or the instrument/s on which the music is played. A 16
year old Chinese American girl can "authentically" compose and perform
a new Irish traditional tune on a trumpet, if both she and a
significant number of people who make up the Irish traditional music
audience decide it sounds "traditional."
Much food for thought, though I don't know that many here in rmc are
much interested in it. Sorry to have bored you all once again with
more information than you ever wanted about the study of folklore and
tradition.
Thanks for your posts Eoghan.
Janet
Stuart Joseph
says...
>
>Tracy (tre...@hevanet.com) wrote:
>: Here's a thought--A lot of Irish settled the United States in the previous
>: century, especially in the South and Appalachian mountains, and of course
>: they brought their music and instruments with them. Because of the relative
>: isolation of the Appalachians, older forms of music and speech were
preserved
>: much longer than in the rest of the U.S.
>
>This is assuming the Appalachians didn't make any changes to the music
>once they set up shop far from their peers. Maybe they represent a
>small, yet incredibly creative group of innovators? This is pure
>speculation on my part...
>
>tyler.
traditional unchanged British Isles folksongs in Appalachia than Child found in
the British Isles about fifty years earlier (I think I have the dates correct).
Stuart
Celtic Cultures
www.sover.net/~celtic/
Stuart Joseph
mgal...@dcez.dcez.com says...
>
>
>sorry but they have recovered Bhodran frames from celtic burial sites
>stretching back into the bronze age...
correct in the information I am disseminating. I also want to be sure that if I sell
the bodhrans as early instruments at the events I attend, I want to be accurate.
What are your sources? What burials? How did they date them?
If you had read my post carefully, I only said that it was a version of the
bodhran's origins that I had heard and I was passing it on. I also said that frame
drums are known in all cultures and are ancient, so the interpretation of the
bodhran's origins would be up to the reader.
Stuart
Celtic Cultures
www.sover.net/~celtic/
Stuart Joseph
>The field of Celtic music in the Diaspora communities is a
>fascinating, but fledgling field right now. I don't know of anyone
>who has written specifically on the subject (although if anyone knows
>of reading material on it I'd love to know about it!)
>
>Janet
"Migration: Irish Music in America." The film dealt with how Irish music
influenced American music and the other way around.
It began with the Scots-Irish who immigrated to the South and the Scots-Irish
that went to the frontier before the American War for Independence up to the
modern Irish musicians who brought their music to America.
It discussed how Irish music influenced Black music (Pete Seeger demonstrated
how "Rock-a-my Soul" was related to "The Irish Washerwoman") and how
indebted Country & Western music was to the Irish tradition.
Stuart
Celtic Cultures
www.sover.net/~celtic/
DizCat
Wishing has nothing to do with it. Part of the point I was making was that
these issues can be neither proved nor disproved, but, that one may find
information through many many, sometimes seemingly unrelated sources to
support educated hypothesis.
Jim Brewster
wrote:
I think there are two questions here:
1. "How old is the bodhran?"
Possibly bronze age or older.
2. "How long has the bodhran been associated with the melodic dance music
of Ireland?"
Possibly only since the 1960's. Before that it seems to be associated
mostly with specific agricultural rituals and not played with pipes,
fiddles, etc.
Jim
Eoghan Craig Ballard
>Authenticity is negotiated between performer and audience. Musican
>and audience decide if something sounds--and therefore is
>"traditional," irregardless of the age or origins of the music or the
>musicians, or the instrument/s on which the music is played. A 16
>year old Chinese American girl can "authentically" compose and perform
>a new Irish traditional tune on a trumpet, if both she and a
>significant number of people who make up the Irish traditional music
>audience decide it sounds "traditional."
>
>Much food for thought, though I don't know that many here in rmc are
>much interested in it. Sorry to have bored you all once again with
>more information than you ever wanted about the study of folklore and
>tradition.
Thanks Janet! It's always nice to find someone else posting who has a
strong grasp of the history of folklore and folklore studies. I especially
was amused by your remarks concerning the Chinese American girl composing
Irish music. It set me thinking for a moment. But then I remembered that
both my lady friend, who is from Beijing, and my son, who is from Wicklow
say to me "Dream on, you're the only one in this house who's ever going to
play Irish music!"
Magorn
I appreciate your efforts to maintain historical accuracy, So If you will
give me a few days Iwill be able to give you the proper citations, but
briefly, as I understood it, at a few of the mounds they had recovered
the remains of round wood frames with few scraps of hide still attached.
what they were was a source of some controversy, but at least a few
scholars had tentatively identified them as a sort of goatskin drum. As
you say it is a simple musical instrument common to almost all culture,
so it would be more surprising if the culture Didn't have some variation
of it.
Sheila McGregor
Territories of Canada, of an Inuit playing a very large frame drum
with two short fat sticks. This drum appears to be suspended in
space, like a gong. Looking for other references to drumming,
I find in "Ancient Men of the Arctic" by Louis Giddings, that a drum
which looks very like a bodran was used in dances in Alaskan drum
dances. Dancing and sorcery are closely associated. The chief
performer at a drum dance is the shaman. Near the centre of the
gathering "drummers sit stiff-backed in a row, their legs straight
ahead, each holding in his left hand, by its wooden or ivory handle,
a tambourine-like drum. In the right hand each drummer grasps a thin
wand with which simple music is evoked from a taut membrane across
the drum.... At first the wand lightly strikes only the rim of the
open side of the drum, but as the music follows its patterned course
there comes a time when heavy blows bend the wand to a point where
it touches and resounds sonorously against the centre of the
membrane. Tones are thus varied..."
Sometimes the drum handles survive in Alaskan burials, but the drums
themselves don't. There is obviously a different method of playing
in Canada, which uses two hands, but this is probably not significant.
The idea that a bodran, in the sense of a sounding skin stretched
over a frame and sounded with a stick or sticks, is in any sense
a modern invention is surely ludicrous. Such drums (and all drums
are related to them) are probably the oldest musical instruments
known to man. Since there are no drums similar to bodrans in
Scotland or Wales or even in England, it seems reasonable to
postulate that they have survived in Ireland while they have died
out in neighbouring countries. Has anyone looked in Finland?
Or Siberia? If the bodran is old, it could be very old indeed.
--
Sheila McGregor
University of Vermont
Thanks.
Stuart
Celtic Cultures
www.sover.net/~celtic/
University of Vermont
Henrik Norbeck
>2. "How long has the bodhran been associated with the melodic dance music
>of Ireland?"
>
>Possibly only since the 1960's. Before that it seems to be associated
>mostly with specific agricultural rituals and not played with pipes,
>fiddles, etc.
>
I have to argue against what you say. In "The Irish Flute Player's Handbook"
by Hammy Hamilton there are copies of two paintings of a flute player with
a bodhran player. One painting (on page 33) is from Cork around 1837, and the
other one (on pages 38 and 39) is from Listowel around 1842. Obviously the
combination of flute and bodhran was not unknown then. The painting from 1837
also shows people dancing.
--
Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden
henrik....@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1789/ Irish & Swedish Tunebook
Henrik Norbeck
><snip> have survived in Ireland while they have died
>Or Siberia? If the bodran is old, it could be very old indeed.
>--
>Sheila McGregor
>
Frame drums are/were played in Finland (by the lapps), and also by Siberian
peoples. Frame drums are also common in Portugal (and probably other parts
of Europe too).
Rachel Mullens
Being from Appalachian Virginia, I should think that folk music would much
more strongly reflect the early (17th century) Scottish settlement than a
later Irish influx. This certainly holds true in my region, which remains
primarily Scottish in descent--at least in the areas of southwestern Virginia,
southern West Virginia, and eastern Kentucky with which I'm familiar, the
Irish influence seems minimal. (There simply weren't that many of them to
impact the existing structure.)
Rachel
ryan...@gold.tc.umn.edu
>In article <4js2pc$k...@epx.cis.umn.edu>, ryan...@gold.tc.umn.edu wrote:
>>Authenticity is negotiated between performer and audience. Musican
>>and audience decide if something sounds--and therefore is
>>"traditional," irregardless of the age or origins of the music or the
>>musicians, or the instrument/s on which the music is played. A 16
>>year old Chinese American girl can "authentically" compose and perform
>>a new Irish traditional tune on a trumpet, if both she and a
>>significant number of people who make up the Irish traditional music
>>audience decide it sounds "traditional."
>>
>>Much food for thought, though I don't know that many here in rmc are
>>much interested in it. Sorry to have bored you all once again with
>>more information than you ever wanted about the study of folklore and
>>tradition.
>Thanks Janet! It's always nice to find someone else posting who has a
>strong grasp of the history of folklore and folklore studies. I especially
>was amused by your remarks concerning the Chinese American girl composing
>Irish music. It set me thinking for a moment. But then I remembered that
>both my lady friend, who is from Beijing, and my son, who is from Wicklow
>say to me "Dream on, you're the only one in this house who's ever going to
>play Irish music!"
Truth be told, I've been put on this planet, in this lifetime, to
counter the Green Linnet marketing archetype, to wit:
"...ours [Green Linnet's music] is hardcore, music with dirty hands,
the stuff played by old guys in black suits, sitting around dirt
floored kitchens..."
Quote of Wendy Newton, Green Linnet founder
"The Sellin' o' the Green" by j. poet
Rhythm Music Magazine Vol IV, No 9 October 1995
Authentic my ass! I've not seen a single musican on a Green Linnet
tour with dirty hands *or* wearing a black suit! And as for the
tacky, stereotypical article title in Rhythm Music Magazine...it
reminds me of a St. Patrick's Day advertisement that runs in the local
papers here every year using a "green" theme for selling plasma. I
don't see much difference between the two frankly, but maybe that's
because I'm in a dark sort of mood today.
Janet
John Ward
One of the problems with the "authenticity" issue is that some people
would like to know what time period a tune, or style of playing, or an
instrument, can be considered to be within. For example, is a bodhran an
instrument that would have been used prior to 1650? If so, then using it
at an SCA event or a Renaissance Fair would be appropriate. If not, then
some would say that the use of the instrument would be "out of period" and
would be inappropriate. Thus, for some people, authenticity is of some
concern.
For myself, I care only a little about dating particular instruments or
tunes, but rather use a standard of if it could have been from the period.
If the tune, instrument, or whatever could have plausibly been heard in
the period, then I feel free to use it, even though I might know that the
particular instrument or tune is not, in fact, period. For example, the
bodhran, or something similar, has been used in many cultures for
centuries. It certainly could have been used in pre-1650 Ireland or
Scotland, so I don't feel that it is inappropriate to use the instrument
at an SCA event or in a Renaissance Fair performance. Likewise, I use my
modern fiddle, even though it is a little different from the fiddles prior
to 1650. It's close enough and I'm no authenticity nazi. On the other
hand, an electric guitar is definately out.
Should note that I found a medieval reference to Highland farmers using
drums, among other musical devices, when out working. Could those be the
equilivant of bodrans, which are one of the more simple drum designs?
Of course, I also wear my glasses when I'm in garb. Otherwise, I couldn't
see what I'm doing.
As to Celtic music being "authentic," I have to agree with Janet. If
those who are within the tradition accept something as "authentic" or as
being within the tradition, then it is. Of course, there will be some who
disagree with some more recent material.
Just my 0.02 worth
John
Magorn
well said and nearly my sentiments exactly... iam interested in age
mostly for the plausibility of whether a given time period would have
certain song style...and I think we have well covered, Dance music and
sean nos style music, but What about Waulking songs? and for that
matter how about all of those work-style songs (I ahave heard ones for
Boat making and forging) any idea when or why them came about?
DL...@maine.maine.edu
ere played in the medieval period. But, most scholars agree that the Bodhran is
an ancient instrument. Some estimates place it in the realm of 300 too 400 BCE
The style of play which seems popular for this drum today is one that appears t
o have some foundation in the 12th century. This has been theorized from lookin
g at the hand positions of drummers depicted in some artwork of the period. Tip
pers or beaters today are often shaped to fit the hand. The doubleheaded hourgl
ass shape being the most popular. But earlier tippers of the medieval period a
ppear to be mainly a simple straight stick, which would explain why tippers or
beaters have not been unearthed along with the drums. A simple wooden stick wou
ld decay faster than the drum itself and if one did survive the ravages of time
it would not be readily recognizable as a tipper. Much music from the 12th and
13th century lends itself readly to the tripping beats of the modern bodhran s
tyle, which is a style of play that has been handed down through oral traditi
on for many centuries.
The etymology of the word Bodhran suggests that it might have originally a pa
gan ritual instrument since the word seems to come from gaelic words meaning Li
fe Ear or life sound.Good luck and play to yoiur heart's content.
Dave & Laura McKinstry
> What about Waulking songs? and for that
> matter how about all of those work-style songs (I ahave heard ones for
> Boat making and forging) any idea when or why them came about?
Generally, working songs have ben around for a LONG time, they came
about because work is boring, tedious, or is helped by rhythm (for the
latter, take, for example, rowing. I believe it also helps in
hammering or milking, or whatever.)
More specifically, I can think of one example, off the top of my head.
It's Scottish (sorry, I know we started on Irish, but it's an EXAMPLE,
fer Riley's sake... "My Heartly Service", Scotland, 1592 or so. It's a
rahter humorous song used in the spiring plowing celebration, where a
man hitches up a few of his friend to a plow for couple of symbolic
loops around a courtyard or whatever. While going around, the song is
sung. The first verse basically says, "My good master, I'm your
plowman, and I thought you should know you've got an ox on its last
legs, it's got to go." Trough the rest of the song, the "plowman"
enumerates parts of the plow, calls out to the "ox" using both
oxen-names and the names of people (as if he finds it hard to tell the
difference) then toward the end, I swear I hear him saying "and by the
way, if you don't appreciate me enough, I'll just take my business
elsewhere."
It's a work song linked to celebration of the work of the season;
namely, spring. Plowing is a hard job, and having a celebration to look
forward to once you get the job done probably helps make it seem more
worthwhile. Thus, the celebration. In order to have a REALLY good
celebration, you need music. Thus, the song.
Personally, I'd like to get my hands on more pre-1600 Irish music and
see if there are parallels.
Lark of Cire Freunlaven Laura McKinstry
Steppes, Ansteorra Dallas, TX
Tracy
> I have a print from Cape Dorset, which is somewhere in the Northern
> Territories of Canada, of an Inuit playing a very large frame drum
> with two short fat sticks. This drum appears to be suspended in
> space, like a gong.
Similar to Japanese drumming.
> The idea that a bodran, in the sense of a sounding skin stretched
> over a frame and sounded with a stick or sticks, is in any sense
> a modern invention is surely ludicrous.
Of course skin-covered wooden frame drums are ancient. The question
is when did the frame drum, held perpindicular to the body and played
with a single stick striking the drum head at an angle with a down-up
stroke (phew! :-) ) become part of Irish music? Since the ancient mists
of time, or was it a more recent addition? Or somewhere in between?
Perhaps the distinction is playing style. I would be surprised if
there were no ancient drums in Irish music, but the bodhrán playing
style may be a more recent innovation. Anyone have any references
in literature to drum playing, any style?
--
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
__ |\ /| __ __ |\ /| __
\_\\| |//_/ Tracy \_\\| |//_/
__ + __ tre...@hevanet.com __ + __
/_//| |\\_\ /_//| |\\_\
|/ \| |/ \|
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxox
Dr John Barrow
: there is a lot of evidence to contradict those claims. And, what real
: value can be attached to antiquity? Better and more productive is the
: question why people get so hung up over need for something to be ancient
: to validate it. There is a history to the issue of authenticity in western
: culture. It has to do with politics and nation building and is very much
: implicated in this discussion. Start by looking at critiques of Herder, if
: it interests you.
.. which echoes a comment made recently by a writer in Scotland on Sunday,
Dr William Donaldson, in a commentary on The Skye Boat Song, "The relatively
modern origin of The Skye Boat Song - whose romanace will survive the
building of the bridge - leaves us wondering why antiquity should be
considered the essence of tradition? Renewal must go on to maintain
continuity."
jb
:-)
ryan...@gold.tc.umn.edu
><snip ... >
>jb
>:-)
And who the hell wants to go back to the old days anyway? I got a
beautiful book of photographs of Irish women in the period 1880-1920
as part of my research into that period regarding the music last week.
My former partner and I were sitting looking at it over the weekend
together, and one of the things he said at one point was "We can
never, never let things get that bad again."
Grinding poverty, horrible social and political repression, incredibly
oppressive jobs--what is so romantic about all that? I'm with Eavan
Boland--I won't go back to Mise Eire either.
Janet
Arval d'Espas Nord
> The style of play which seems popular for this drum today is one that
> theorized from looking at the hand positions of drummers depicted in
> some artwork of the period.
Can you point me to specific examples? I've looked, and haven't found that
evidence.
> ...the modern bodhran style, which is a style of play that has been
> handed down through oral tradition for many centuries.
Can you direct me to your source for the antiquity of the style? The books
I've read have specifically stated that the modern style is a modern
invention.
> The etymology of the word Bodhran suggests that it might have originally
> a pagan ritual instrument since the word seems to come from gaelic words
> meaning Life Ear or life sound.
Can you tell me where you found that derivation? I've checked several
sources for the origin of the word, and they all agreed that it derived
from "bodhar", a word meaning "dull or deaf sounding". You can find the
details on my bodhran web site at
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/linguistics.html.
===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
DizCat
You may find alternative resources in " art history, music ethnology,
anthropology/archiology (other than celtic too) ...," You might find odd
little bits by pouring through early manuscript illuminations, or even in
Roman or Greek accounts of other cultures. When looking to verify
something like this the information is sketchy at best and hidden in the
oddest places. In using artistic representations, check the artists
depiction of other instruments as well. (If he has shown known instruments
incorrectly the chances are greater that he was working from secondhand
information or making it up)
Abby Sale
wrote:
>Magorn wrote:
>> What about Waulking songs? and for that
>> matter how about all of those work-style songs (I ahave heard ones for
>> Boat making and forging) any idea when or why them came about?
>
>Generally, working songs have ben around for a LONG time, they came
>about because work is boring, tedious, or is helped by rhythm (for the
>
>More specifically, I can think of one example, off the top of my head.
>It's Scottish (sorry, I know we started on Irish, but it's an EXAMPLE,
>fer Riley's sake... "My Heartly Service", Scotland, 1592 or so. It's a
This is very interesting to me. It's long been my understanding that
there were no known English-language work songs. That is, there are many
Gaelic work songs (even one-man ones) & chanteys plus many lowland
Scottish & English songs _about_ work, but none actually sung _during_ the
work to set the timing.
Is this "My Heartly Service" a new discovery? Is is known to be a true
work song? Sung while working? Or just during a spring plowing
celebration?
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS
and I quote:
Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
=========================================================================
Dr John Barrow
: This is very interesting to me. It's long been my understanding that
: there were no known English-language work songs. That is, there are many
: Gaelic work songs (even one-man ones) & chanteys plus many lowland
: Scottish & English songs _about_ work, but none actually sung _during_ the
: work to set the timing.
don't understand. Sea shanties are work-songs in English, sometimes, and
were sung to set the time as well as pass the time. No? And there are many
known.
There are other work-songs or, more correctly, industrial work-songs, but I
can't think right now of another trade where singing (in English) was used to
set a time. There are songs from the mills, for example, but the repetitive
sound of the machinery set the time for the workers; or from mining, there
wasn't so much repetition in digging out coal, although again, there are
many mining songs (like in NE England). Agricultural work-songs, like bothy
songs from Scotland, tend to be more along the lines of social commentaries
about "that bastard" the employer, or "chasing" lassies or both; not much
rhythm to be set. In fact, most if not all of the industrial songs seem to
be broadly a record of hard-times, bad employers, falling in love against a
background of poverty, trying to make a living - social commentaries.
tell me I'm wrong. :-)
jb
:-)
Jim Brewster
<j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Abby Sale (abby...@sundial.net) wrote:
>
> : This is very interesting to me. It's long been my understanding that
> : there were no known English-language work songs. That is, there are many
> : Gaelic work songs (even one-man ones) & chanteys plus many lowland
> : Scottish & English songs _about_ work, but none actually sung _during_ the
> : work to set the timing.
>
> don't understand. Sea shanties are work-songs in English, sometimes, and
> were sung to set the time as well as pass the time. No? And there are many
> known.
Maybe this is out of context for this ng and thread, but the statement
that "there were no known English-language work songs" begs this reply:
Besides all the English-language sea-chanteys, what about all the African
American work songs?
Perhaps she should be more specific with the context of her statement.
Jim
John MacGibbon
>One of the problems with the "authenticity" issue is that some people
>would like to know what time period a tune, or style of playing, or an
>instrument, can be considered to be within. For example, is a bodhran an
>instrument that would have been used prior to 1650? If so, then using it
>at an SCA event or a Renaissance Fair would be appropriate. If not, then
>some would say that the use of the instrument would be "out of period" and
>would be inappropriate. Thus, for some people, authenticity is of some
>concern.
What 'gets' me about a lot of folkies is the way they seem to think
people always used a guitar - and their anti-piano attitude. Here in
New Zealand that's the case anyway. Yet in the 19th century, and for
quite a while into this century, I reckon more folks sang around the
piano than they ever did around a geetar. Maybe not so much among
poorer people, but does folk music always have to have dirty hands?
I am the proud owner of my own family's Scottish music collection
which they imported from Glasgow, and which they, and many other New
Zealand pioneer families, sang around the piano. Songs which 'folks'
sang - Caller Herrin', kelvon Grove, Lucy's flittin', Afton Water,
Farewell to the Land, Gae bring my gude auld harp once mair, Hiland
Laddie, Wae's for me Prince Charlie, etc etc.
-----
John MacGibbon,
Infomedia Associates, PO Box 29-010, Wellington, New Zealand
E-mail: john...@actrix.gen.nz
Business phone 64-4-473 3177 ; Business fax 64-4-499 9062
Home phone 64-4-479 5545 ; home fax 64-4-479 5646
Janet Penelope Gunn
What about all the railway songs- to set a rhythm for driving spikes,
etc.?
And songs originally written in other languages which have become part
of the English tradition, such as the Volga Boat song?
And marching songs?
Janet
Sheila McGregor
In article <4kecfp$8...@panix.com> mit...@panix.com "Arval d'Espas Nord" writes:
> > The etymology of the word Bodhran suggests that it might have originally
> > a pagan ritual instrument since the word seems to come from gaelic words
> > meaning Life Ear or life sound.
and Josh Mittleman wrote:
> Can you tell me where you found that derivation? I've checked several
> sources for the origin of the word, and they all agreed that it derived
> from "bodhar", a word meaning "dull or deaf sounding". You can find the
> details on my bodhran web site at
> http://www.panix.com/~mittle/linguistics.html.
The word bodhar, in Scottish Gaelic, means 'a deaf person' or 'deaf, dull
of hearing' which is not an appropriate word for a drum. However the
meaning is almost certainly the active form of this root, ie, 'making deaf',
cf bodhair, 'deafen, stun with noise'.
--
Sheila McGregor
Abby Sale
>In article <960410143...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>, Dr John Barrow
><j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Abby Sale (abby...@sundial.net) wrote:
>>
>> : This is very interesting to me. It's long been my understanding that
>> : there were no known English-language work songs. That is, there are many
>> : Gaelic work songs (even one-man ones) & chanteys plus many lowland
>> : Scottish & English songs _about_ work, but none actually sung _during_ the
>> : work to set the timing.
>>
>
>Maybe this is out of context for this ng and thread, but the statement
>that "there were no known English-language work songs" begs this reply:
>
Of course. Sorry for unclarity. I mean no known English-language work
songs in Great Britain or Ireland. The original refered to that place.
Abby Sale
wrote:
>
>don't understand. Sea shanties are work-songs in English, sometimes, and
>were sung to set the time as well as pass the time. No? And there are many
>known.
>set a time
English-speaking world. Like you, I know of absolutely none such as you
suggested - quarying, mining, mill-work or other potential areas as
rowing, railroad work, digging. It's interesting that there are _many_ in
Gaelic, but I found none in English. Maybe the lowlanders just aren't
willing to work together. :-) (I think)
>
>There are other work-songs or, more correctly, industrial work-songs, but I
songs. Strict definition...setting time or _possibly_ other usage, but
sung on the job. A backhoe operator singing a show tune wouldn't count as
that's both solo & non-time setting.
>tell me I'm wrong. :-)
You're wrong. (But mislead by me)
DizCat
actually Sheila;
Bodair or Dallan is also related in that a bodhran is dull sounding
compared to many other drums. If the skin gets to tight and rings too much
it is wet down with beer water or what ever is handy to dull it down.
(which is why one should always avoid the "plastic glued on" heads, since
they are completly untunable and the tension is too high to start with)
Arval d'Espas Nord
> > sources for the origin of the word, and they all agreed that it derived
> > from "bodhar", a word meaning "dull or deaf sounding". You can find the
> > details on my bodhran web site at
> > http://www.panix.com/~mittle/linguistics.html.
>
> The word bodhar, in Scottish Gaelic, means 'a deaf person' or 'deaf, dull
> of hearing' which is not an appropriate word for a drum. However the
> meaning is almost certainly the active form of this root, ie, 'making deaf',
> cf bodhair, 'deafen, stun with noise'.
The explanation I read was that "bodhran" could also mean "a dull-sounding
thing." In any case, I don't know enough to argue about it; I was only
reporting what the experts say.
Howard Evans
>The word bodhar, in Scottish Gaelic, means 'a deaf person' or
>'deaf, dull of hearing' which is not an appropriate word for
>a drum. However the meaning is almost certainly the active
>form of this root, ie, 'making deaf', cf bodhair, 'deafen,
>stun with noise'.
Aye thon wid be richt enuff - if ye've beee sat atween twa
that's bin dirlin in yer lugs fan ye've bin tryin tae pick
ott the richt tune.
--
Howard Evans, Carnoustie, Scotland
Magorn
which goes to prove that the Bodhran, is a true Celtic
instrument....after all can ye think of another instrument that needs a
wee drink once an a while to keep playing aright?
Gary L. Foiles
>
> after all can ye think of another instrument that needs a
> wee drink once an a while to keep playing aright?
You mean, other than the human voice? :) <hiccup>