Celtic Pronounciation
Paul Martin
Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
seltic, or keltic?
John Robicheau
pma...@worldchat.com (Paul Martin) wrote:
>Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
>seltic, or keltic?
the basketball team is Sell-ticks the culture is Keltic
--
John T. Robicheau JTR...@pitt.edu
---------------
Is mise Sea/n O/ Murchu/ Robicheau
Is mise mac le/inn
Liam Rodgers
Paul Martin wrote:
>
> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
> seltic, or keltic?
"Keltic," unless you're a Brit, then it would "Seltic."
Liam
Tracy Reith
In article <08-18-1...@worldchat.com>, pma...@worldchat.com (Paul
Martin) wrote:
> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
> seltic, or keltic?
keltic, unless you're talking basketball or football (soccer), then it's seltic.
--
Tracy
tre...@hevanet.com
Henry Whyte
In article <08-18-1...@worldchat.com>, Paul Martin
<pma...@worldchat.com> writes
>Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
>seltic, or keltic?
be published from Edinburgh:
"*Celt* kelt or selt, also *Kelt* ... *P'-Celt'ic* and *Q'-Celtic*
(pertaining to) respectively, one of the Celtic languages in which Indo-
European qu became p and one in which qu became k (written c)."
[Awright?] Latin: Celtae; Greek Keltoi or Keltai.
If nobody had invented writing things down, we wouldn't have all these
spelling problems. (Not a quote from Chambers.)
--
Henry Whyte, Lochee hwh...@translation-plus.co.uk
Ptbrady
I believe that "Celtic" comes from a Greek word, "Keltoi", which would
have a hard "k" sound. However, many people pronounce it "seltic"
including, I think, the French (please correct me if I'm wrong there). But
in Ireland, it's "Keltic".
Pete Brady
Mike McGillivray
On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Paul Martin wrote:
> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
> seltic, or keltic?
The proper pronunciation is keltic. Seltic is mis-pronounced, but it
still thrives in the sports leagues. Let's work at fixing it.
==============================================================================
Mike McGillivray Mike.McG...@USASK.CA
Consulting and Development Phone--- (306) 966-5269
University of Saskatchewan Fax--- (306) 966-4938
==============================================================================
"Besides that Mrs. Kennedy, how did you like the parade?"
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <3217C7...@earthlink.net>, sgriobh Liam Rodgers
<brod...@earthlink.net>
>Paul Martin wrote:
>>
>> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
>> seltic, or keltic?
>
>
The football (soccer) team in Glasgow is "Seltic", the basketball team
in Boston is "Seltic". The culture is "Keltic" although a small number
of older people also pronounce this "Seltic" too.
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
M'Daid
>Paul Martin wrote:
>>
>> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
>> seltic, or keltic?
> "Keltic," unless you're a Brit, then it would "Seltic."
> Liam
This is no "correct" pronunciation. Keltoi is a word originally picked up
by the Greeks when they were exploring western Europe and I've never found
if the Celts actually ever called themselves this. Since Latin lacked
a "k", to the Romans, it became Celtic. The Irish made it more confusing by
not having a "k" either and because "c" is always pronounced as "k", never
as "s"). Or conversing, the English made it more confusing by having a "c"
with more than one sound. But if you're in Castilian Spain, it's theltic
(thelta, spelled celta), though you might find it pronounced selta in non-
Castilian Spain (Galiza, Andalus, Euskadi, etc.).
PaciŠncia en lo comen‡ament, e riu en la fi.
Ramon Llull
a1...@lehigh.edu
>This is wrong.
>The football (soccer) team in Glasgow is "Seltic", the basketball team
>in Boston is "Seltic". The culture is "Keltic" although a small number
>of older people also pronounce this "Seltic" too.
On a related note to this subject:
I'm new to this newsgroup and was wondering if there was a FAQ available
containing a guide to pronounciation popular Gaelic words, such as the names
of instruments, towns, popular phrases, etc.
Mike
Michael Alaimo - USDA, ARS, ERRC
(Custodian Emeritus, Max *Plonk* Institut)
work email to: mal...@arserrc.gov
LeahJ
Well, Fiona Ritchie says "Celtic" with a hard c ("k") sound on "Thistle
and Shamrock." I wasn't sure before I heard her say it, but she's
Scottish so I follow her lead!
Leah
Roger Gawley
On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Mike McGillivray wrote:
>
> The proper pronunciation is keltic. Seltic is mis-pronounced, but it
> still thrives in the sports leagues. Let's work at fixing it.
If "sports leagues" refers to the Scottish Premier League, then there is
no hope of fixing it. Seltic is the correct pronounciation in that
context. The trouble is that millions of people have heard the name as
part of the football results dozens of times before they ever hear the
word used to mean anything else. After that you can become confused but
never straightened out.
Vector Tube
if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu (M'Daid) wrote:
>>Paul Martin wrote:
>>>
>>> Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
>>> seltic, or keltic?
>
. . .
But if you're in Castilian Spain, it's theltic
>(thelta, spelled celta), though you might find it pronounced selta in non-
>Castilian Spain (Galiza, Andalus, Euskadi, etc.).
>
. . .
Or if you're American, it's just pronounced "foreigners".
;-)
GreeneKing
Well if you're referring to music, culture, ancestry, etc. its "kell-tic".
If you're referring to sports teams from Boston or Glasgow or some such,
it's "sell-tic". Go figure.
Neil Alasdair McEwan
Mike McGillivray (mcgi...@duke.usask.ca) wrote:
: On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Paul Martin wrote:
: > Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
: > seltic, or keltic?
: The proper pronunciation is keltic. Seltic is mis-pronounced, but it
: still thrives in the sports leagues. Let's work at fixing it.
I always thought that "keltic" was the only proper pronounciation as
well, but on the Gaelic music cassette "Ceol na Gaidhlig" Ruaridh
MacThomais, doing a brief history of Gaelic in Scotland, pronounces it
"seltic". Now he's one of our top Gaelic bards and editor of the Gaelic
journal "Gairm", so perhaps there's something in that way of saying it
after all. Can Ruaraidh be wrong? :)
le meas,
Neil A. McEwan
--
: ==============================================================================
: Mike McGillivray Mike.McG...@USASK.CA
: Consulting and Development Phone--- (306) 966-5269
: University of Saskatchewan Fax--- (306) 966-4938
: ==============================================================================
: "Besides that Mrs. Kennedy, how did you like the parade?"
--
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <4vjghc$m...@apollo.isisnet.com>, sgriobh Neil
Alasdair McEwan <ap...@ccn.cs.dal.ca>
> I always thought that "keltic" was the only proper pronounciation as
>well, but on the Gaelic music cassette "Ceol na Gaidhlig" Ruaridh
>MacThomais, doing a brief history of Gaelic in Scotland, pronounces it
>"seltic". Now he's one of our top Gaelic bards and editor of the Gaelic
>journal "Gairm", so perhaps there's something in that way of saying it
>after all. Can Ruaraidh be wrong? :)
>
Some old people pronounce it that way.
B. Traven's nephew
>The proper pronunciation is keltic. Seltic is mis-pronounced, but it
>still thrives in the sports leagues. Let's work at fixing it.
Nothing to fix. Who cares anyway? There is NO "correct" or "proper" way to
pronounce "celtic". If you go to a place where they say "keltic", then say
keltic. If you go to Galicia, you may say "selta" or "thelta". These are
ALL correct. Except in the eyes of the politically-correct internet
language police.
Scott Gordon
Either that, or they are rabid Basketball fans. <G>
--
Bydand,
Scott (*5)
PS - Be sure to visit the Gordon and Rogue home page at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/gordon_rogue
PPS - This is the homepage for my favorite Renaissance Faire:
http://www.parenaissancefaire.com
Dick Gaughan
In article <4vhu33$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, GreeneKing
<green...@aol.com> writes
>Well if you're referring to music, culture, ancestry, etc. its "kell-tic".
>If you're referring to sports teams from Boston or Glasgow or some such,
>it's "sell-tic". Go figure.
The pronunciation of 'C' as an 'S' is pretty well peculiar to English.
Most other languages pronounce it as a 'K'. Gaelic included, where that
is invariably the case - except when followed by an 'H' but that's a
whole other can of worms.
--
Dick Gaughan, Dun Eideann (Edinburgh), Alba (Scotland)
Stuart Yates
The correct pronunciation in Scotland is "Keltic". The soft
pronunciation "Seltic" is only for Celtic Football Club, based in
Glasgow.
=Stuart Yates=
Eomot
Too much nonsense in this thread. Contrary to one poster's claim,
English is not peculiar in having "c" with a pronunciation other than "k",
it's hardly ever "k" in romance languages (whole variety of
pronuncialtions)
and the slav languages using roman alphabet don't always have it "k"
either;
I think that makes a majority not having it "k".
So far as "celtic" is concerned, you'll find most Scots gaels pronounce it
"seltic" not "keltic". The "keltic" pronunciation is mainly restricted to
those
with a little education - - they know the word had a "k" sound in greek a
couple of thousand years ago - - and a lot of ignorance - - they don't
know
English (and Scots) acquired the word via French and therefor had a
"seltic"
pronunciation. But in reality there is no such thing as a single
"correct"
pronunciation, since both pronunciations are now in common usage and
universally understood in the anglophone world, and both pronunciations
are given in all good dictionaries, both are correct.
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <4vpnj7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sgriobh Eomot
<eo...@aol.com>
>So far as "celtic" is concerned, you'll find most Scots gaels pronounce it
>
>"seltic" not "keltic". The "keltic" pronunciation is mainly restricted to
>those
Most Scots Gaelic (95%+) pronounce it Keltic because that's the closest
form to the way it's pronounced in their language where it is written
Ceilteach and pronounced with a hard C. Just like they pronounce Gaelic
as Gaalic and not the way most English speakers pronounce it "Gaylic"
Eomot
>Most Scots Gaelic (95%+) pronounce it Keltic because that's the closest
>form to the way it's pronounced in their language where it is written
>Ceilteach and pronounced with a hard C.
Craig, I suggest you look up "ceilteach" in a good dictionary, and
contemplate
the album title "the secret people". When even a group makes a joke of it,
perhaps you should notice there's something odd.
Only certain University departments use "ceilteach" as "celtic", and
that's
because no-one in those departments at the time they acquired their gaelic
names had a clue what the gaelic for "celtic" might be so they had to
invent
something. I think the first form used was "ceiltich" which was chosen
deliberately to keep it distinct from "ceilteach" but times have moved on.
Even
so, since most of us didn't learn our gaelic in the "division of secretive
languages" at Glasgow, we don't use that word. Nor do we say "keltic".
(For
God's sake, even Derek/Ruairidh doesn't say "keltic" and he was head of
that
department; but of course he's a Gael, so he wouldn't say "keltic", would
he?)
Tom
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <4vs2me$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sgriobh Eomot
<eo...@aol.com>
>>Most Scots Gaelic (95%+) pronounce it Keltic because that's the closest
>>form to the way it's pronounced in their language where it is written
>>Ceilteach and pronounced with a hard C.
>
>Craig, I suggest you look up "ceilteach" in a good dictionary, and
>contemplate
>the album title "the secret people". When even a group makes a joke of it,
>perhaps you should notice there's something odd.
>
speakers and I don't know of Gaels in particular being called "the
secret people". I know of a Capercaillie album called "Secret People"
which is dedicated to the oral tradition - the Gaels passed on the bulk
of their knowledge orally, perhaps English speakers thought this as
secretive because it meant there wasn't books to take away. It didn't
stop Dwelly becoming fluent.
>Only certain University departments use "ceilteach" as "celtic", and
>that's
The Celtic departments do. Which other university departments were you
talking about?
>because no-one in those departments at the time they acquired their gaelic
>names had a clue what the gaelic for "celtic" might be so they had to
>invent
>something. I think the first form used was "ceiltich" which was chosen
>deliberately to keep it distinct from "ceilteach" but times have moved on.
>Even
>so, since most of us didn't learn our gaelic in the "division of secretive
>languages" at Glasgow, we don't use that word. Nor do we say "keltic".
>(For
>God's sake, even Derek/Ruairidh doesn't say "keltic" and he was head of
>that
>department; but of course he's a Gael, so he wouldn't say "keltic", would
>he?)
The Gaelic given in Maclennan (published 1925) for Celts is "Ceiltich".
The pronounciation given there is "keltich". You may quote Thompson but
in my opinion he has done an appalling job of modernising the language
and controversially removed acute accents (a decision which split Gaelic
academic opinion). I find it a conflict of interest that the person in
charge of the board for reviewing language spelling subsequently made
money out of all the dictionaries with the new spelling in. I can cite
another Professor - Prof William Gillies , Prof of Celtic in Edinburgh
who stated that Maclennan was "for learners, speakers and teachers of
Scottish Gaelic this is without doubt the most useful of existing Gaelic
dictionaries".
This is the dictionary which gives the pronounciation as keltich. I am
curious though - if Celtic is a "made up" word, and it was pronounced
"Seltic" in English why was it transcribed into the Gaelic as "Ceiltich"
and not "Seiltich" ?
The "correct" pronounciation in English is the one most people use and
most people I know, both learners and native speakers, use the hard C.
Whilst Gaelic dictionaries can often serve as a guide, they often don't
go into subtleties such as the pronounciation of Gaelic with the
"gaylig" pronounciation meaning Irish Gaelic and the "gaalic" meaning
Scots Gaelic.
Craig
B. Traven's nephew
>The pronunciation of 'C' as an 'S' is pretty well peculiar to English.
>Most other languages pronounce it as a 'K'. Gaelic included, where that
>is invariably the case - except when followed by an 'H' but that's a
>whole other can of worms.
>--
>Dick Gaughan, Dun Eideann (Edinburgh), Alba (Scotland)
So, let's see, the French say les celtes ("lay selt"), the Spanish say los
celtas ("loes theltas or loes seltas), the English say, the Celts ("thuh
selts"), and Latin has no "k". Of course, French and English share a lot of
common heritage, so maybe the English messed up the French and the French
then messed up the Spanish. But English, French and Spanish do account for
a large part of the globe though I'd be curious to know what the Chinese and
Hindus say since there are more of them.
So, by most other languages, do you mean, most non-Germanic, non-Romance
languages say "kelt"?
Dick Gaughan
In article <4vpnj7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Eomot <eo...@aol.com>
writes
<huge snip>
>So far as "celtic" is concerned, you'll find most Scots gaels pronounce it
>"seltic" not "keltic".
<huge snip>
Do you happen to know the Gaelic for "pedantic"?
Dick Gaughan
In article <ifjed.299...@nmsua.nmsu.edu>, "B. Traven's nephew"
<if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu> writes
>>The pronunciation of 'C' as an 'S' is pretty well peculiar to English.
> ^^^^^^^^
>>Most other languages pronounce it as a 'K'. Gaelic included, where that
> ^^^^
>>is invariably the case - except when followed by an 'H' but that's a
>>whole other can of worms.
>
>celtas ("loes theltas or loes seltas), the English say, the Celts ("thuh
>selts"), and Latin has no "k". Of course, French and English share a lot of
>common heritage, so maybe the English messed up the French and the French
>then messed up the Spanish. But English, French and Spanish do account for
>a large part of the globe though I'd be curious to know what the Chinese and
>Hindus say since there are more of them.
OK, it's a fair cop, yer honour - I wuz wrong. Indefensible sweeping
generalisation withdrawn without appeal for clemency :)
Rephrased to following :
So far I know, German, Scots Gaelic, Lowland Scots, Danish, Swedish,
Norwegian, Dutch and most of the non-Latin European languages *usually*
pronounce an initial 'c' as a 'k', occasionally as a 'ch'.
Richard Robinson
In article <1eJXpAAH...@dickalba.demon.co.uk>,
Dick Gaughan <di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <ifjed.299...@nmsua.nmsu.edu>, "B. Traven's nephew"
><if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu> writes
>>>The pronunciation of 'C' as an 'S' is pretty well peculiar to English.
>> ^^^^^^^^
>>>Most other languages pronounce it as a 'K'. Gaelic included, where that
>> ^^^^
>>>is invariably the case - except when followed by an 'H' but that's a
>>>whole other can of worms.
>>
>>So, let's see, the French say les celtes ("lay selt"), the Spanish say los
>>celtas ("loes theltas or loes seltas), the English say, the Celts ("thuh
>>selts"), and Latin has no "k". Of course, French and English share a lot of
>>common heritage, so maybe the English messed up the French and the French
>>then messed up the Spanish. But English, French and Spanish do account for
>>a large part of the globe though I'd be curious to know what the Chinese and
>>Hindus say since there are more of them.
>
>OK, it's a fair cop, yer honour - I wuz wrong. Indefensible sweeping
>generalisation withdrawn without appeal for clemency :)
Would you like a mitigating circumstance ?
I'm English, I pronounce it as I've heard the people round me pronounce
it, with a hard C.
--
Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK ric...@beulah.demon.co.uk
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
Mark Kermode
Neil Alasdair McEwan wrote:
>
> Mike McGillivray (mcgi...@duke.usask.ca) wrote:
> : On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Paul Martin wrote:
>
> : > Can someone tell me what the correct pronounciation of celtic is? Is it
> : > seltic, or keltic?
>
> : still thrives in the sports leagues. Let's work at fixing it.
>
> I always thought that "keltic" was the only proper pronounciation as
> well, but on the Gaelic music cassette "Ceol na Gaidhlig" Ruaridh
> MacThomais, doing a brief history of Gaelic in Scotland, pronounces it
> "seltic". Now he's one of our top Gaelic bards and editor of the Gaelic
> journal "Gairm", so perhaps there's something in that way of saying it
> after all. Can Ruaraidh be wrong? :)
>
>
> Neil A. McEwan
I read somewhere that Celt comes from the Greek word for the people who
called themselves Gaels - Keltoi.
M. Kermode.
Scott C DeLancey
In article <ifjed.299...@nmsua.nmsu.edu>,
B. Traven's nephew <if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu> wrote:
>>Most other languages pronounce it as a 'K'. Gaelic included, where that
> ^^^^
>celtas ("loes theltas or loes seltas), the English say, the Celts ("thuh
>selts"), and Latin has no "k". Of course, French and English share a lot of
>common heritage, so maybe the English messed up the French and the French
>then messed up the Spanish. But English, French and Spanish do account for
>a large part of the globe though I'd be curious to know what the Chinese and
>Hindus say since there are more of them.
OK, I didn't want to start with the linguistics, but youse leave me
no choice:
The word is originally Greek, Kelt-(oi), with a "k" sound. Borrowed
into Latin as Celt-, with a "k" sound. But Latin turned its "k"
sounds to "ch" sounds before what we call front vowels, i.e. "i"
and "e". French (which is really just Latin a few years down the
road) continued this process, with the "ch" sound eventually becoming
"s". So in French, the letter <c> sounds like "s" before <i> and <e>,
and like "k" elsewhere. English picked up this habit, and so we're
inclined to pronounce "s", because the <c> is before an <e>. (With
me so far?)
Now, German, and other Germanic languages, never picked up this
silly Frenchified habit. So they have always pronounced the word
with the "k" sound, like in the original Greek. As it happens,
most of our modern traditions of scholarship about ancient languages,
old texts, and whatnot, saw their primary development in Germany in
the 19th century. So, English-speaking scholars picked up the habit
of the "k" pronunciation from their German teachers. Which brings
us up to the present, where the word, when it just floats around in
ordinary English and attaches itself to things like sports teams,
is pronounced according to the ordinary rules of English spelling.
But, when it's used to refer to the ancient peoples and languages,
it has the scholarly pronunciation borrowed from German.
But (you may say), which is *right*?? What are we *supposed*
to say? Well, I'm a linguist, and it's not my job to answer
questions like that. For my professional opinion, youse can say
what you like. But the truth is, the original name, for the original
people, which was recorded in the original Greek word, had the "k"
sound, and, for my money, the "seltic" pronunciation sounds pretty
stupid.
Scott DeLancey
Department of Linguistics
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403, USA
dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu
http://www.uoregon.edu/~delancey/prohp.html
Garry Lee
Richard Burton was once approached by an American who said
"Why Mr.Burton. I'm so pleased to meet you. We're both Selts".
"No", said the cranky Burton,"I'm a Kelt and you're a sunt".
An Claidheamh Ceilteach
On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Craig Cockburn wrote:
> Ann an sgriobhainn <4vs2me$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sgriobh Eomot
> <eo...@aol.com>
> >>Most Scots Gaelic (95%+) pronounce it Keltic because that's the closest
> >>form to the way it's pronounced in their language where it is written
> >>Ceilteach and pronounced with a hard C.
> >
> >Craig, I suggest you look up "ceilteach" in a good dictionary, and
> >contemplate
> >the album title "the secret people". When even a group makes a joke of it,
> >perhaps you should notice there's something odd.
> >
> Any minority language can be thought of as "secret" by majority language
> speakers and I don't know of Gaels in particular being called "the
> secret people". I know of a Capercaillie album called "Secret People"
> which is dedicated to the oral tradition - the Gaels passed on the bulk
> of their knowledge orally, perhaps English speakers thought this as
> secretive because it meant there wasn't books to take away. It didn't
> stop Dwelly becoming fluent.
As a point of interest, in Noah Webster's 1828 _American Dictionary of
the English Language_, he speculates the term "Celtic" was derived from a
word meaning "secret, hidden," presumably because the Celts liked to live
in woods and mountainous areas. Words like "Gael," "Gaul," and the root
"gall" are all supposedly related originally to the word "Celt" (Greek
"Keltoi").
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| http://www.wlu.edu/~jsorens/gaidhlig.html
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Vae victis!
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <5003nh$q...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, sgriobh Scott C
DeLancey <dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
>no choice:
>
>The word is originally Greek, Kelt-(oi), with a "k" sound. Borrowed
>into Latin as Celt-, with a "k" sound. But Latin turned its "k"
>sounds to "ch" sounds before what we call front vowels, i.e. "i"
>and "e".
Back to Gaelic :-) There's a very interesting parallel here between
English pronounciation and Gaelic pronounciation. Gaelic has two vowel
types, broad and narrow. e and i are the narrow vowels, a,o,u are broad.
D before a broad vowel is a D but before a narrow vowel it's J
hence Jura in Gaelic is Diura. I've never heard the term "front vowel"
before and I've read about narrow vowels since just about my first
Gaelic lesson - narrow and broad vowels form the basis for the Gaelic
spelling rule.
Alan Craig
Dick Gaughan wrote:
>
> In article <4vpnj7$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, Eomot <eo...@aol.com>
> writes
>
> <huge snip>
> >So far as "celtic" is concerned, you'll find most Scots gaels pronounce it
> >"seltic" not "keltic".
> <huge snip>
>
> Do you happen to know the Gaelic for "pedantic"?
>
Yes, but I can't pronounce it...
Glenn S. Sunshine
> >>The pronunciation of 'C' as an 'S' is pretty well peculiar to English.
> > ^^^^^^^^
> > ^^^^
> >>whole other can of worms.
> >
> >celtas ("loes theltas or loes seltas), the English say, the Celts ("thuh
> >selts"), and Latin has no "k". Of course, French and English share a lot of
> >common heritage, so maybe the English messed up the French and the French
> >then messed up the Spanish. But English, French and Spanish do account for
> >a large part of the globe though I'd be curious to know what the Chinese and
> >Hindus say since there are more of them.
>
> generalisation withdrawn without appeal for clemency :)
>
> So far I know, German, Scots Gaelic, Lowland Scots, Danish, Swedish,
> Norwegian, Dutch and most of the non-Latin European languages *usually*
> pronounce an initial 'c' as a 'k', occasionally as a 'ch'.
>
> --
been recognized. Contrary to the above, Latin used "C" to transliterate
the Greek kappa, always pronounced /k/; the original pronunciation of the
word that has come to us a "celt" was /kelt/. The romance languages have
since evolved so that "c" is pronounced /s/. In English, "c" is
generally pronounced /k/ unless followed by an "i" or "e," in which case
it is pronounced /s/: thus "medical" vs. "medicine." One would
therefore expect "celt" to be pronounced /selt/, though historically this
is far from original. The cognate words "Gaul," "Gael," etc., are all
pronounced with a hard g, a sound closely related to /k/ (for one you
move your vocal chords, for the other you don't; otherwise, they're
produced pretty much the same way), so from the point of view of the
related words (both in English and, I believe, the celtic languages
themselves), /kelt/ would seem preferable.
Muddying the waters,
Glenn
John Boocock
More important how do you pronounce Slaithwaite?
Betty
(Glad that language has variations and quirks.....)
Henrik Norbeck
Dick Gaughan <di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Rephrased to following :
>So far I know, German, Scots Gaelic, Lowland Scots, Danish, Swedish,
>Norwegian, Dutch and most of the non-Latin European languages *usually*
>pronounce an initial 'c' as a 'k', occasionally as a 'ch'.
Not quite right! Swedish, Danish, Norwegian (and Dutch, I think)
usually pronounce c as 's' before soft vowels (e and i), and as 'k'
before hard vowels (a, o, u).
In Swedish (and in Danish and Norwegian, I think), we even spell celt
with a k: "kelt". Some friends of mine even made it even more Swedish
by calling their band 'Ka"lt' (the " two dots should go over the a).
Henrik Norbeck, Stockholm, Sweden
henrik....@mailbox.swipnet.se
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/1789/ Irish & Swedish Tunebook
Scott C DeLancey
In article <de+QTJA$+HJy...@scot.demon.co.uk>,
Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Ann an sgriobhainn <5003nh$q...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>, sgriobh Scott C
>DeLancey <dela...@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
>>
>>into Latin as Celt-, with a "k" sound. But Latin turned its "k"
>>sounds to "ch" sounds before what we call front vowels, i.e. "i"
>>and "e".
>
>Back to Gaelic :-) There's a very interesting parallel here between
>English pronounciation and Gaelic pronounciation. Gaelic has two vowel
>types, broad and narrow. e and i are the narrow vowels, a,o,u are broad.
>D before a broad vowel is a D but before a narrow vowel it's J
>hence Jura in Gaelic is Diura. I've never heard the term "front vowel"
>before and I've read about narrow vowels since just about my first
>Gaelic lesson - narrow and broad vowels form the basis for the Gaelic
>spelling rule.
The terms "broad" and "narrow" are peculiar to the study of Gaelic;
"narrow" vowels are the same as what phoneticians call "front"
(because they're pronounced with the front part of the tongue).
I't pretty common around the world for consonants, especially "k"
and "g", to do funny things before front vowels.
Scott DeLancey
John Boocock Wolfstone
In message <3225E9...@hmitchell.tcp.co.uk>
Howard Mitchell <how...@hmitchell.tcp.co.uk> writes:
> Since when was Slaithwaite (Slathwait, Slawit) relevant to things
> Celtic?
> How about the nearby habitation of Linthwaite (Linfit).
You clearly haven't come across the suggestions that Elmet was a lost
Celtic kingdom, Howard.
Betty
Howard Mitchell
Since when was Slaithwaite (Slathwait, Slawit) relevant to things
Celtic?
How about the nearby habitation of Linthwaite (Linfit).
Howard Mitchell
Colin Matheson
>I've never heard the term "front vowel"
>before and I've read about narrow vowels since just about my first
>Gaelic lesson - narrow and broad vowels form the basis for the Gaelic
>spelling rule.
Hi Craig.
"Front" and "back", "high" and "low" are standard linguistic terms for
these parameters, describing the position of the tongue - it's
probable that the older Gaelic grammars are written by people without
much background in phonetics and/or phonology, hence the use of words
like "narrow".
Colin
--
Colin Matheson | Human Communication Research Centre
Phone: +44 131 650 4656 | University of Edinburgh
Fax: +44 131 650 4587 | 2 Buccleuch Place
Email: Colin.M...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh EH8 9LW
B. Traven's nephew
>As a point of interest, in Noah Webster's 1828 _American Dictionary of
>the English Language_, he speculates the term "Celtic" was derived from a
>word meaning "secret, hidden," presumably because the Celts liked to live
>in woods and mountainous areas. Words like "Gael," "Gaul," and the root
>"gall" are all supposedly related originally to the word "Celt" (Greek
>"Keltoi").
Actually, you have brought up a VERY good point. The "k" and "g" sounds
are practically the same sound which is noticed if one says GATT and cat.
It's also evident in Germanic languages. E.g., in English, one says "bake",
which in Swedish is "baka" and in Danish "bage."
So perhaps Kelts are not Kelts at all. Perhaps they were really Gelts and
became "correctly" Kelts because some Greek thought it sounded more like
"k" than "g". Like gaelic and gaelig. Which again calls into question this
whole business of "correctness."
Abby Sale
>Since when was Slaithwaite (Slathwait, Slawit) relevant to things
>Celtic?
>
>How about the nearby habitation of Linthwaite (Linfit).
Well Twecher probably in, what with being near Glasgow, although I may
have forgotten the spelling by now. I never found _anybody_ that could
pronounce it and never met anyone actually _from_ the place. Still bugs
me.
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net
And I quote:
I want to be Robin to Bush's Batman.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
=========================================================================
Dick Gaughan
In article <3226d1a0...@news.sundial.net>, Abby Sale
<abby...@sundial.net> writes
>Well Twecher probably in, what with being near Glasgow, although I may
>have forgotten the spelling by now. I never found _anybody_ that could
>pronounce it and never met anyone actually _from_ the place. Still bugs
>me.
There was a folk club there for a while in the 80s - I have actually
played in Twecher :)
You're impressed, aren't you? Tell me you're impressed .....
--
Dick Gaughan, Dun Eideann (Edinburgh), Alba (Scotland)
website : http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/
--
Fundamentalism: The nagging fear that someone,
somewhere might be happy.
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <ifjed.305...@nmsua.nmsu.edu>, sgriobh "B.
Traven's nephew" <if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu>
James Logan writes in "The Scottish Gael", vol 1, first published 1876.
P3-4.
The appelation Celtae, which this primitive people acknowledged as their
only proper name [Caeser, ut sup.] at which they first received from
others, in subsequent times underwent several changes. The ancient
Greeks used this term in speaking of them, but it afterwards became
transformed into Calatae and Galatae and the Roman Galli was latterly
adopted by some Roman writers [Pausanias who wrote about 165 says they
were later demoninated Gauls for they had always called themselves
Celtae]. Numerous etymologies have been offered for the solution of this
word. In all its variations it may, with probability, be traced through
the Greek Keltoi to some corresponding term in the Celtic language which
no longer exists.
He also suggests "Gaelic" originally meant the language of "white men".
95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
Jon Robert Crofoot
Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk> wrote:
(much snipped...)
>
>95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
>pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
>pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
>--
We've got to get rid of the letter 'C', that's all there
is to it! It's been skrewing things up sinse the time of
the Anglo-Saxons, and still misleads people about the
pronunsiation of words like "Kyrillik", and "Sybernetik".
Are you with me on this?
Michael Sarles
Very strange...In the various Irish and Gaelic (the difference in the
two being when Gaelic had, over the centuries, become so different
between Ireland and Scotland that the two countries formally
identified and labelled their language...in the mid 1950's) books that
I've seen, the C always has a strong sound. S's have the s sound
except when followed by e's or i's, thus producing a sh sound.
I'll follow my textbooks and keep pronouncing it like a k...and thanks
for telling me just how educated I am..
Michael Sarles
msa...@on-ramp.ior.com
eo...@aol.com (Eomot) wrote:
>Too much nonsense in this thread. Contrary to one poster's claim,
>English is not peculiar in having "c" with a pronunciation other than "k",
>it's hardly ever "k" in romance languages (whole variety of
>pronuncialtions)
>and the slav languages using roman alphabet don't always have it "k"
>either;
>I think that makes a majority not having it "k".
>So far as "celtic" is concerned, you'll find most Scots gaels pronounce it
>"seltic" not "keltic". The "keltic" pronunciation is mainly restricted to
>those
>with a little education - - they know the word had a "k" sound in greek a
>couple of thousand years ago - - and a lot of ignorance - - they don't
>know
>English (and Scots) acquired the word via French and therefor had a
>"seltic"
>pronunciation. But in reality there is no such thing as a single
>"correct"
>pronunciation, since both pronunciations are now in common usage and
>universally understood in the anglophone world, and both pronunciations
>are given in all good dictionaries, both are correct.
Donald Martinich
Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: 95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
: pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
: pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
: --
: Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
: http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/
: Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
As well as those of us who looked up the pronunciation in OED1
D.M.
Abby Sale
>There was a folk club there for a while in the 80s - I have actually
>played in Twecher :)
>
>You're impressed, aren't you? Tell me you're impressed .....
>
I truly am. And especially so that you were able to find the place. My
rememory is that it consisted of little more than the sign, itself.
(But how do you pronounce it?)
=========================================================================
I am Abby Sale - abby...@sundial.net
And I quote:
We should develop anti-satellite weapons because we could not have
prevailed without them in 'Red Storm Rising'.
Alan Craig
Fleabus wrote:
>
> >
> >In Swedish (and in Danish and Norwegian, I think), we even spell celt
> >with a k: "kelt". Some friends of mine even made it even more Swedish
> >by calling their band 'Ka"lt' (the " two dots should go over the a).
> >
> >
In Norwegian it's `Kelter' for Celts and `Keltisk' for
Celtic, although the Blaa Ordbok gives both `Celt'
and `Selt' as the English pronunciation.
In case no-one's yet pointed it out, it's also
a hard consonant in Breton
Alan
Dr John Barrow
Abby Sale (abby...@sundial.net) wrote:
: On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:00:48 +0100, Dick Gaughan
: <di...@dickalba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: (But how do you pronounce it?)
just like it looks - twekker - sounds like one of those Sci-Fi fweaks
with a speech impediment - or is that a twekkie - thought she was a model in
the 1960s? :-)
jb
:-)
B. Traven's great-great grand nephew
>95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
>pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
>pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
Yes, but "correctness" is not decided by voting. So 95% is not revelant.
95% of the people in the US (excepting those that listen to Thistle and
Shamrock) say seltic. But it doesn't make them right.
Also, my book (Les Celtes by Weneslas Kruta) says that the Greeks called
these people Keltoi' with an accent on the end. The Romans then called them
celtici (and also germanici). So the sound "k" are the front may be the most
"correct", but the ending "ic" is wrong. Plus, since gaelic is pronounced
gaelig, then keltic should be pronounced keltig.
Also, Mr. Cockburn, someone was asking on rec.travel.europe about smokeless
pubs and I couldn't recall you info. You might consider posting to that
group (about your pub stuff). Weight, I see your banner, I'll post it.
Poll Dubh
Scriobh Craig Cockburn <cr...@scot.demon.co.uk>
san alt <0ris07Ab...@scot.demon.co.uk>:
>95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
>pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
>pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
No French people among your acquaintances? They're very much on the
"s" side of this k/s split. (Italians are on the "ch" side in this case,
as in... "church".)
Craig Cockburn
Ann an sgriobhainn <50hto1$k...@sv8.ictp.trieste.it>, sgriobh Poll Dubh
<sing...@oort.ap.sissa.it>
Didn't know the word "Celtic" existed in French. I thought it was "les
Celtes" (soft C).
B. Traven's great-great grand nephew
>Didn't know the word "Celtic" existed in French. I thought it was "les
>Celtes" (soft C).
celtique, like celtic, from the Latin celtici
Ken Seaton
>jb
>:-)
Sorry, pal but you won't get away with pronouncing Twechar like that
in the Bully.
Once safely ensconced at the bar in the Quarry Inn (the Bully,
pronounced like Hull, gull, Mull) in Twechar (pronounced with the ch
as in loch and e instead of the a, Twecher) you can order the finest
range of real ales in East Dunbartonshire. That's before the |North
Lanarkshire council and the Scottish Office toadies force through the
M80 upgrading which is going to destroy the Kelvin Valley.
Ken Seaton
Lenzie
Je
> >Actually, you have brought up a VERY good point. The "k" and "g" sounds
> >are practically the same sound which is noticed if one says GATT and cat.
> >It's also evident in Germanic languages. E.g., in English, one says "bake",
> >which in Swedish is "baka" and in Danish "bage."
> >"k" than "g". Like gaelic and gaelig. Which again calls into question this
Same with gen and kin. But which came first or which languages or areas
did they come from? Celtic goes back to proto indo european.
Fielder George Dowding
B. Traven's nephew wrote:
>
> >As a point of interest, in Noah Webster's 1828 _American Dictionary of
> >the English Language_, he speculates the term "Celtic" was derived from a
> >word meaning "secret, hidden," presumably because the Celts liked to live
> >in woods and mountainous areas. Words like "Gael," "Gaul," and the root
> >"gall" are all supposedly related originally to the word "Celt" (Greek
> >"Keltoi").
>
> are practically the same sound which is noticed if one says GATT and cat.
> It's also evident in Germanic languages. E.g., in English, one says "bake",
> which in Swedish is "baka" and in Danish "bage."
>
> became "correctly" Kelts because some Greek thought it sounded more like
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thank you for this discussion of the "correct" pronunciation of "Celt."
I trust then the "s" sound is totally incorrect, as in "Boston Seltics."
--
Cheerio!
Fielder George Dowding =:)}}} (medium length white beard)
Chief Iceworm
Dennis J. Gormley
In a previous article, if...@nmsua.nmsu.edu (B. Traven's great-great grand nephew) wrote:
->>Didn't know the word "Celtic" existed in French. I thought it was "les
->>Celtes" (soft C).
->
->celtique, like celtic, from the Latin celtici
And, of course, the "les" is pronounced like the first syllable in the name
Lester, right? :)
Dennis Gormley ####
Ashland, NJ (-O-O-)
GOR...@HSLC.ORG ( ======)===@=====@===
http://www.hslc.org/~gormley/mcdermotts_handy.htmlx ####### // //
-------// //
"In this house, DADGAD _IS_ regular tuning!" ___________ //
------------/
Dr John Barrow
Ken Seaton (seat...@colloquium.co.uk) wrote:
: >jb
: >:-)
: Ken Seaton
: Lenzie
in bare print there is not the benefit of the curly bits and accents of
phonetics. it's pretty close innit, considering? :-)
jb
:-)
Dean Eric Hoffman
Donald Martinich wrote:
>
> Craig Cockburn (cr...@scot.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : 95% of people I know pronounce Celtic as "Keltic". The people who
> : pronounce it "Seltic" are either older people or are using the
> : pronounciation for the Football/Basketball teams by default.
> : Craig Cockburn ("coburn"), Du\n E/ideann, Alba. (Edinburgh, Scotland)
> : http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig/
> : Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
>
>
> D.M.
I don't think that kiwilisation itself will fall if they pronounce it
keltic. Maybe that's just the way it's said in the kity where they live.
And I for one kertainly wouldn't want to kensor anybody for their
preferences, no matter how self-kentered it may appear!
Mrs Ackroyd Enterpri
> There was a folk club there for a while in the 80s - I have actually
> played in Twecher :)
>
> You're impressed, aren't you? Tell me you're impressed .....
Ah, but have you ever played the refreshment room on platform three at
Stalybridge Station? There aren't many clubs where you can get hot Vimto
these days.
Les
Craichead
>No French people among your acquaintances? They're very much on the
>"s" side of this k/s split. (Italians are on the "ch" side in this case,
>as in... "church".)
church == kirk
Aha!
Steve
Richard Robinson
In article <322DA8...@clark.net>,
Dean Eric Hoffman <dean...@clark.net> wrote:
>
>I don't think that kiwilisation itself will fall if they pronounce it
>keltic. Maybe that's just the way it's said in the kity where they live.
>And I for one kertainly wouldn't want to kensor anybody for their
>preferences, no matter how self-kentered it may appear!
Well caid.
--
Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK.
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
Nothing in the above should be read as suggesting that
I may wish to receive bulk mailshots. I do *NOT*.
Abby Sale
On Wed, 4 Sep 96 03:44:46 GMT, Dr John Barrow <j...@folkmus.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>: as in loch and e instead of the a, Twecher) you can order the finest
Thanks Dr. John and Ken. Finally I know. This vital thing has bugged me
long.
And, although it may be wasting the band-width of those interested in
music.celtic, for the sake of "lifestyle.sort-of-celtic" I offer this
reminiscence because I notice that Ken signs himself as in the metropolis
of Lenzie (nr Glasgow. I know that Lenzie is but a spit-and-a-holler from
Twechar - or whatever the local equivalent would be - I never learned)
Lenzie's a reasonable place & you can (used-to-could, anyway) see the
hills from there. But people is people.
We moved to Lenzie direct from the even smaller town of Duns,
Berwickshire. Duns isn't near _anything_ so doesn't get your major city
conveniences. To rent a truck (ok - lorry) or moving company from E-town
would have been wildly expensive and a local suggested we hire the coal
delivery people. (Coal was delivered to the houses in 100wt bags so these
guys were well-able to handle little things like furniture.) They didn't
work weekends, the locals often used them for carting stuff & they'd be
glad of the extra work. Of course, they'd hose down the lorry before
loading our stuff.
Seemed a good idea and a deal was duly struck. The job was well-done.
About a year later, our Lenzie neighbors let us know that a number of
other neighbors in that Proper suburb forever refused to have anything to
do with anyone who would move in in a coal lorry! (Well, I thought this
was actually a fairly efficient way to weed out people we really wouldn't
want to have any truck (!) with anyway, and determined to _always_ use a
coal lorry when we move in future. This resolve hasn't worked too well as
there are surprisingly few home coal delivery companies here in central
Florida.)
Anyway, I asked that friendly Lenzie neighbor if _they'd_ had any problem
with it. Well, he admitted, the wife got in a bit of a huff at the time &
said (peeking out the curtains) Look what the new neighbors are up to!
They're actually moving in in a coal lorry! Hush! said the husband.
Remember, we moved in in the middle of the night so no one would see we
were using a hearse! At least they (ie, Us) were moving in daylight.
Abby
Dick Gaughan
In article <Dx8Bu...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, "\"Mrs Ackroyd Enterpri\""
<ack...@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes
>Ah, but have you ever played the refreshment room on platform three at
>Stalybridge Station? There aren't many clubs where you can get hot Vimto
>these days.
Who's handling the bookings these days?
Is the Vimto still on draught from oak casks?
Have they got the PA fixed yet?
Holly Tannen
Dick Gaughan inquired
>Do you happen to know the Gaelic for "pedantic"?
Téidís suas orthu féin mara bhfuil an greann acu.
-Seamus O'Blivious
Alex Stephenson
=======================================
Twecher's locals have a significantly different dialect from Glasgow and
most of the rest of the West of Scotland, although only about 8 miles
North of Glasgow's suburban limits.
Does Scotland have the narrowest bands where dialect changes occur?
Alex Stephenson
DA Eger
:
: ....perhaps Kelts are not Kelts at all. Perhaps they were really Gelts and
: "k" than "g". Like gaelic and gaelig. Which again calls into question this
: whole business of "correctness."
When we're discussing linguistic change over many centuries, the issue of
"correctness" is of little relevance. In fact, the concept of correctness in
the spelling of written English has only existed for about four centuries
(since the invention of the printing press) and flexibility in the written
language would presumably have allowed greater flexibility in the spoken
language.
Anyway, this has lttle to do with Celts, Gelts, Gaels, Gauls or Galls.
Ken
..So, what is the correct pronunciation of "Celt", anyway?
--
Ken
Houston, Texas
ALSO SPRANCH BABY JANE HUDSON:
"Jane, you wouldn't treat me this way if I wasn't
in this chair!"
>>> "But cha are, Blanche! You are still in ya chair!" <<<
Charlene
Well, I've never heard it pronounced "Geltic", but I have heard "Keltic"
and "Seltic"!
Son of Traven
>Well, I've never heard it pronounced "Geltic", but I have heard "Keltic"
>and "Seltic"!
Sorry, that is not proof of anything. Anyway, it's really geldig
and I theorize that the first Greeks to write down the name actually
misheard the strangers who called themselves the Gelds (since "d" and "t"
and "k" and "g" are related and somewhat interchangeable).
By the way, if any of you run into Fiona Richey, who seems to be the
reference point of all true and correct Celtic pronunciations among North
Americans, tell her there is no country called "Gah-LITH-ee-ah". In
Castilian Spanish, Galicia is pronounced "Gah-LEETH-ee-ah"; in non-Castilian
Spanish it's Gah-LEES-ee-ah and in the native language, the country is
Galiza, pronounced "Gah-LEES-ah".
New Mexico, it ain't New and it ain't Mexico
Also known as: "The Land of Entrapment"
Capital City: Santa Fake
