What is a reel/hornpipe/jig/slip jig?
HollyKing
I know a little about music which I learned playing trumpet in HS. I
want to learn more about Celtic music and eventually want to play
some.
Right now I'm trying to figure out the differences between reels,
hornpipes, jigs, slip jigs and others. Is there a FAQ, website or
document floating around which explains this? I've lurked here for a
while and have never seen a FAQ on the group.
Thanks!
Brendan
Michael Wodzak
An easy way to remember is with the number of letters in the words jig
and reel (3 and 4). Jigs are in triple time. Reels are in 4/4 time.
Actually it gets a bit more complicated where jigs are concerned as
there are essentially 3 kinds, jigs, slip jigs and slides having 6, 9
and 3 beats to the bar. If the rythm of a tune goes "merrily, merrily
merrily ....." then it's a jig.
It's rather more difficult to distinguish a hornpipe from a reel, since
they're both in common time. Essentially, however, hornpipes are more
syncopated.
Hope this helps
Michal
H Gilmer
: and 3 beats to the bar. If the rythm of a tune goes "merrily, merrily
: merrily ....." then it's a jig.
Or a hornpipe with lots of triplet ornamentation...like the Sweeps
hornpipe or a very common version of Rights of Man.
Hg
Bill Pfeiffer
<wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> wrote:
> Actually it gets a bit more complicated where jigs are concerned as
> there are essentially 3 kinds, jigs, slip jigs and slides having 6, 9
> and 3 beats to the bar. If the rythm of a tune goes "merrily, merrily
> merrily ....." then it's a jig.
Oh, this is one of those things that always drives me nuts because I can
never get it nailed down. Just for clarification (and believe me, I'm not
claiming to be right on this...I want to find out the real answer), I
thought there were four types of jigs:
o Jigs (AKA double jigs) 6/8 time
o Slides (AKA single jigs) 12/8 time
o Treble jigs ? time
o Slip jigs 9/8 time
Please enlighten/correct me on any of this as needed.
Cheers,
Bill
--
Bill Pfeiffer
E-Mail: cale...@earthlink.net (Remove "NOSPAM" from replies)
Seacoast Music
areas that have different names for such things as well.
For example, in Cape Breton a hornpipe is commonly referred to as a clog.
I was recently at a dance where a hornpipe was requested. A young Caper
wasn't sure what would qualify and a local, very talented pipe player came
up and quietly hummed out part of a tune. His face brightened and he said
"Oh, you mean a clog"
The music quickly started and the dancing picked up once again.
--
Later, Steve Kincade
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HollyKing wrote in message <36719a40...@news.supernews.com>...
Eric Root
>One thing that might help is to ask people from your area. There are
many areas that have different names for such things as well.
>For example, in Cape Breton a hornpipe is commonly referred to as a
clog.
This seems to be the case in a lot of U.S. trad also, where hornpipes
are generally played as reels, but if you call it a "clog," it gets that
dotted, "pointed" rhythm hornpipes get in Scottish, Irish, or English
music.
-Eric Root
- Read more non-fiction?! I get enough _non-fiction_ in real life!
Peter Tritz
single jig is also in 6/8. The distinction isn't real definite, but in
general a double jig uses almost all eighth notes; a single jig has a lot
of quarter-note-eighth-note phrases. Off She Goes and Smash the Windows
are a couple of single jigs that come to mind. The Gates of Derry is a
dance that's usually done to a single jig. Slides are ususally notated
in 12/8, and like single jigs they often use a lot of quarter-notes. But
when played for dancing, slides go much faster than single jigs.
"Treble jig" is really more of a dance term. The tunes are double-jigs,
but played slowly enough so that a step dancer can treble the steps.
Bill Pfeiffer
In article <751238$1umi$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
KGB...@prodigy.com (Peter Tritz) wrote:
Actually, I have a follow-up question. Are slip jigs called double jigs
by some people? The tune in question would be, "The Kid on The
Mountain." I've always thought this tune to be a slip jig, but on The
Bothy Band's, "Live in Concert" CD, one of the band members calls it "one
of Ireland's best-loved double jigs." Or, are there double jig and slip
jig versions of "The Kid on The Mountain?"
Thanks in advance,
Nigel Gatherer
> I thought there were four types of jigs:
> o Jigs (AKA double jigs) 6/8 time
> o Slides (AKA single jigs) 12/8 time
> o Treble jigs ? time
> o Slip jigs 9/8 time
single jigs 6/8 crotchet, quaver, crotchet, quaver, etc
double jigs 6/8 pineapple, pineapple, etc
slip jigs 9/8 banana, banana, banana
flip jigs 11/8 time to take your medication
clip jigs 7/8 usually played as a nod to Eastern Europe
blip jigs 1/8 oops, oops, oops, etc
trip jigs 5/4 oops, ouch! sorry, oops, ouch! sorry
trip jigs #2 9/17 faaaar out, man, hey, wow, oooh, man
hop jigs 9/8 same as slip jigs
pop jigs 3/4 Scary Spice, Sporty Spice
not jigs 3/4 um, waltzes, mazurkas, etc
treble jigs 9/8 see hop jigs
slides 12/8 similar to single jigs
glides 11/17 similar to trip jigs #2
Cole's jigs 2/4 OR 4/4
Yeah, what is the deal with the jigs in "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes"? There
are some forty tunes, all called "jigs", but written in 2/4 or 4/4, and
don't sound much like jigs to me. Anyone know?
--
Nigel Gatherer, Edinburgh
gath...@argonet.co.uk
dt king
>In article <3671A2...@lie.math.missouri.edu>, Michael Wodzak
><wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> wrote:
>
>> Actually it gets a bit more complicated where jigs are concerned as
>> there are essentially 3 kinds, jigs, slip jigs and slides having 6, 9
>> and 3 beats to the bar. If the rythm of a tune goes "merrily, merrily
>> merrily ....." then it's a jig.
>
>Oh, this is one of those things that always drives me nuts because I can
>never get it nailed down. Just for clarification (and believe me, I'm not
>thought there were four types of jigs:
>
>o Jigs (AKA double jigs) 6/8 time
>o Slides (AKA single jigs) 12/8 time
>o Treble jigs ? time
>o Slip jigs 9/8 time
This description also confuses me a bit. Though a jig is written 6/8, I'll
normally count it as two beats per bar at the start of each triplet. The
distinction would be important if you hear somebody suggest playing a tune
at 130 bpm. That would make a very leisurely jig at 6 beats per bar -- I
suppose you could waltz to it.
dtk
Stephen Kendall
>
> Cole's jigs 2/4 OR 4/4
>
> Yeah, what is the deal with the jigs in "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes"? There
> are some forty tunes, all called "jigs", but written in 2/4 or 4/4, and
> don't sound much like jigs to me. Anyone know?
My first thought when I read this was that some of the "jigs" in duple
meter in Cole's must come from the minstrel tradition where it was
common to call tunes jigs even though they were in duple meter. Lots of
tunes in the minstrel banjo books which are now reprinted are called
jigs even though not in 6/8 time. I had a quick look in Cole's. Tom
Briggs was the author of one of the first banjo tutors and Tom Briggs'
Jig appears on p80. The tune called Hole in the Wall on p 81 is a tune
from one of the banjo tutors and has been recorded by Joe Ayres (I
think) under a different name. There are some 6/8 tunes in the reels
section which might be minstrel material too. Essence of Sugar Cane on p
24, for instance. On p 26 there are some walk arounds which were
apparently a staple of minstrel shows.
Steve
Nigel Gatherer
> Nigel Gatherer wrote:
> >
> > Cole's jigs 2/4 OR 4/4
> My first thought when I read this was that some of the "jigs" in duple
> meter in Cole's must come from the minstrel tradition...
[fascinating stuff about early banjo books]
The Coles book has long interested me for various reasons, one of which is
its similarity, repertoire-wise, to a Scottish collection, Kerr's Merry
Melodies (four volumes, about 445 tunes in each volume). It's largely in
the "Negro Sand Jigs and Plantation Dances" section, although there are a
number of shared hornpipes and clogs also. I have come to the conclusion
that either the compiler of Ryan's Mammoth Coll or his Scottish
counterpart has access to the other book - I think they are of similar
vintage, c.1870s). With the inclusion of the American stuff in Kerr's,
it's probable that Ryan's was the source, although in turn, there's a lot
of Scottish stuff in Ryan's! Your information about the banjo books
introduces another element to the theory: that both compilers had acces to
earlier banjo books, and included that material into their collections.
Are any of these books available as reprints nowadays?
Stephen Kendall
>
> On 14 Dec, Stephen Kendall <ske...@wave.home.com> wrote:
> > Nigel Gatherer wrote:
> > >
> > > Cole's jigs 2/4 OR 4/4
>
> > My first thought when I read this was that some of the "jigs" in duple
> > meter in Cole's must come from the minstrel tradition...
>
> [fascinating stuff about early banjo books]
>
> The Coles book has long interested me for various reasons, one of which is
> its similarity, repertoire-wise, to a Scottish collection, Kerr's Merry
> Melodies (four volumes, about 445 tunes in each volume).
I should have previously mentioned that Joe Ayres is a banjo player and
owner of Tuckahoe Music. I assume they're still in business but don't
know for sure. They reprinted at least three of the tutors, Briggs,
Buckley and Converse. The one by Rice was to be published also. The
address I have is:
Tuckahoe Music
Box 146
Bremo Bluff, VA 23022
USA
There are some other interesting sounding books from that era too,
including one for accordeon (their spelling), violin, guitar and flute.
The flute book contains "...a large selection of favorite marches,
quick-steps, waltzes, hornpipes, contra dances, songs and six setts of
cotillions arranged with figures.."
For someone wanting to try a few tunes on banjo, Bob Flesher has a
compilation in tablature called The Minstrel Banjo Stroke Style. The
tunes come from various tutors, many from Briggs. The tunes in Briggs
tend to be the easiest of the tutors mentioned above.
The address I have for Flesher is
Dr. Horeshair's Music Co
P.O. Box 2451
Peachtree City, GA 30269
USA
I'm not sure he's still there. I heard he'd gone Off to California.
For interesting information relating some of the early minstrel banjo
tunes to Irish tunes read: Nathan, Hans (1956) Early Banjo Tunes and
American Syncopation. Music Quarterly, 42, 455-472. Some of this is
also in Nathan's book Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelry.
Norman:Oklahoma. University of Oklahoma Press.
I should also mention that Ayres has recorded tapes from four of the
early tutors. He is an excellent player. Some banjo critics think he
tends to play too slowly. Maybe, but he does not shy away from the most
difficult material, however. Listen to the Japanese Grand March on the
Buckley tape, for instance.
Steve
PS. If you are wondering what this has to do with Celtic music, read
Nathan's article.
Dean Karres
This past Summer I was in a whistle class at Swanannoa. The instructor,
John Skelton of the House Band, said that there was an older style of
hornpipe that was in a 3/? time signature. He said that this style was
all but dead. I don't recall if he played an example or not.
FYI
--
Dean Karres | http://www2.southwind.net/~karres
kar...@southwind.net |
Southwind Internet Access | Programmer / Systems Administrator
Wichita, KS | <Troll 2nd Class /w Clusters>
Nigel Gatherer
Dean Karres <kar...@onyx.southwind.net> wrote:
> The instructor...said that there was an older style of
> hornpipe that was in a 3/? time signature. He said that this style was
> all but dead. I don't recall if he played an example or not.
Original hornpipes were in 3/2, or 6/4 and I think mainly stemmed from
England, but even then they had strong maritime connections. I believe
many of them evolved into 9/9 jigs and have become what we now know as
slip jigs or hop jigs. One good example of this is an old Scots hornpipe
called "The Dusty Miller" (which may in fact have been English at some
point). Later it is found as a hop jig in O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland.
Jeri Corlew
"Foxhunters Jig"
--
Jeri Corlew
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Nigel Gatherer
> I believe many of them evolved into 9/9 jigs...
Nice typo, man. I'd like to think that there are hundreds of you out there
thinking "Mmm. That's a new one: a 9/9 jig. Where can I find one of
those?" I have more faith in you.
Jeri Corlew wrote:
> "Foxhunters Jig"
I was thinking of "The Dusty Miller", (No.455 in Dance Music of Ireland),
but there is a similarity with "Foxhunters". After a while many 9/8 jigs
seem to merge into one. Perhaps it's like the "Eve" theory: all tunes can
eventually be traced back to the one tune, which was composed in Africa.
Lawrence E Mallette
: Actually, I have a follow-up question. Are slip jigs called double jigs
: by some people? The tune in question would be, "The Kid on The
: Mountain." I've always thought this tune to be a slip jig, but on The
: Bothy Band's, "Live in Concert" CD, one of the band members calls it "one
: of Ireland's best-loved double jigs." Or, are there double jig and slip
: jig versions of "The Kid on The Mountain?"
That's either a typo, or someone pulling someone's leg.
Actually, the A part does start off like a double jig, but the
other 5 parts (yes, 5... check O'Neill's), are clearly
slip jigs.
The "anomalous" A section makes it hard to know how to phrase the
A part, and often throws off an inexperienced bodhranist,
who may start with double jig figures, when slip jig figures are
called for.
Double jigs: Cantelope, cantelope; Cantelope, cantelope
These are "felt" in one (the capital C),
as well as in two (C..c..)
Slip jigs: Cantelope, cantelope, cantelope;
These are "felt" in one (the capital C),
as well as in three (C..c..c..)
Hornpipes are felt in one, with barely any emphasis on the
5th sub-beat of the 8 in each measure. There is an exaggerated
emphasis, or foot stomp, on the 1 of each measure and onlyh
a little emphasis, if any, on the 2(5). Horpipes may be a bit
"swung" or even played with even division of notes after the
first of each measure. They are definitely not "dotted".
Measure 8, 16, etc. will contain a heavy three beat figure,
with roughly even emphasis on each of the three:
ONE AND TWO,
often followed by a couple of light pick-up
notes leading to the next section or the repeat.
To know what a slide is, you need to see it danced. The
video "Come West Along The Road" has a brief clip of
Denis Murphy and friends playing for the dancers,
and the pace of this slide is unbelievably fast.
Single jigs are generally played at a slower tempo,
and have more notes. They can be forced into slide
mode, but then do sound forced.
Of course these are two completely different
dances, the slide and single jig.
Best,
Larry
Lawrence E Mallette
: > Yeah, what is the deal with the jigs in "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes"? There
: > are some forty tunes, all called "jigs", but written in 2/4 or 4/4, and
: > don't sound much like jigs to me. Anyone know?
There are "jiggs" and "jigs" in Playford written in 2/4, so this is
an old form. They were probably played with swing, and not straight,
much like today's slides. -- just my opinion from having tried
some of them at different tempos and in different ways -- some of
them seem to work best as equivalent to todays' Irish slides.
Stephen Kendall
>
> Stephen Kendall (ske...@wave.home.com) wrote:
> : > Yeah, what is the deal with the jigs in "Cole's 1000 Fiddle Tunes"? There
> : > are some forty tunes, all called "jigs", but written in 2/4 or 4/4, and
> : > don't sound much like jigs to me. Anyone know?
Actually, I didn't write that. Someone else did and I answered with the
suggestion that some of the tunes in Coles are minstrel show tunes which
were often called jigs even though they were in 2/4 or 4/4/.
Steve
ghost
>Steve Kincade wrote:
>>One thing that might help is to ask people from your area. There are
>many areas that have different names for such things as well.
>>For example, in Cape Breton a hornpipe is commonly referred to as a
>clog.
>This seems to be the case in a lot of U.S. trad also, where hornpipes
>are generally played as reels, but if you call it a "clog," it gets that
>dotted, "pointed" rhythm hornpipes get in Scottish, Irish, or English
>music.
Which is something Royce Lerwick entirely overlooked, forgot or
never bothered to find out before going into one of his
"the southern North Americans have preserved hardly anything" bits.
Royce Lerwick
I think anyone who wants to look back on the thread will find I said
that the American folk or "Old Time" styles hadn't presevered jigs,
reels and hornpipes in the Irish style and tradition, and that there
was no American school (except Irish urban havens of immigrants, many
of them recent) of "folk" music that had preserved the cuts, rolls,
and double-cut rolls and styles of ornamentation. I also said that a
"hoedown" which in other regions is called a "clog" was an
amalgamation of reel/hornpipe that had a metric accent altogether
different than a hornpipe even though it maintained sometimes the 8
bar hornpipe construction.
So, in short, I was right on and rather than making some sort of
attack on my position, you'd just made yourself look like a one-note
prick as usual. Go back to whining about operatic voices please.
Royce
ghost
>On 20 Dec 1998 15:36:21 GMT, j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>>In article <24946-36...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net> er...@webtv.net (Eric Root) writes:
>>
>>>Steve Kincade wrote:
>>
>>>>One thing that might help is to ask people from your area. There are
>>>many areas that have different names for such things as well.
>>>>For example, in Cape Breton a hornpipe is commonly referred to as a
>>>clog.
>>>This seems to be the case in a lot of U.S. trad also, where hornpipes
>>>are generally played as reels, but if you call it a "clog," it gets that
>>>dotted, "pointed" rhythm hornpipes get in Scottish, Irish, or English
>>>music.
>>Which is something Royce Lerwick entirely overlooked, forgot or
>>never bothered to find out before going into one of his
>>"the southern North Americans have preserved hardly anything" bits.
>I think anyone who wants to look back on the thread will find I said
>that the American folk or "Old Time" styles hadn't presevered jigs,
>reels and hornpipes in the Irish style and tradition, and that there
The OT styles derived mostly from Irish playing preserve lots of the Irish
style of playing, the OT styles derived mostly from lowland Scottish playing
preserve lots of the lowland Scottish styles of playing, the OT styles derived
mostly from Highland Scottish playing preserve lots of the Highland styles of
playing, & the OT styles that are an amalgamation of the above, &/or an
amalgamation with various African-American styles follow lines that
are less preservative of any *one* of the styles in the amalgamation.
Your problem is that you seem to think OT is some kind of a unified front;
its not.
>was no American school (except Irish urban havens of immigrants, many
>of them recent) of "folk" music that had preserved the cuts, rolls,
>and double-cut rolls and styles of ornamentation.
The important features of timing & ornamentation are all over
the singing styles, which is mostly what I pay the most attention to,
but I can hear them as well in various instrument styles. So are features
like amount of breathiness vs amount of stridency of voice. Again, styles
derived from different sources are going to have different descendants.
There is no "unified front" of OT.
>I also said that a
>"hoedown" which in other regions is called a "clog" was an
>amalgamation of reel/hornpipe that had a metric accent altogether
>different than a hornpipe even though it maintained sometimes the 8
>bar hornpipe construction.
Which differs with the observations of Eric Root, above. Again, I stress that
there is no unified front of OT. You seem to have listened to the people
least likely to have preserved whatever you were looking for & believed
they stood for the whole group. Either that or, as seems more & more
likely, you don't recognize some of this stuff when you hear it.
Royce Lerwick
>The OT styles derived mostly from Irish playing preserve lots of the Irish
>style of playing, the OT styles derived mostly from lowland Scottish playing
>preserve lots of the lowland Scottish styles of playing, the OT styles derived
>mostly from Highland Scottish playing preserve lots of the Highland styles of
>playing, & the OT styles that are an amalgamation of the above, &/or an
>amalgamation with various African-American styles follow lines that
>are less preservative of any *one* of the styles in the amalgamation.
And none of them preserve the Irish basic embellishments, which is the
only point you keep avoiding, and the only point I've made in this
entire thread.
>
>Your problem is that you seem to think OT is some kind of a unified front;
>its not.
It doesn't matter whether it's unified or not. None of it preserves
the Irish embellishments.
>
>>was no American school (except Irish urban havens of immigrants, many
>>of them recent) of "folk" music that had preserved the cuts, rolls,
>>and double-cut rolls and styles of ornamentation.
>
>The important features of timing & ornamentation are all over
>the singing styles, which is mostly what I pay the most attention to,
>but I can hear them as well in various instrument styles. So are features
>like amount of breathiness vs amount of stridency of voice. Again, styles
>derived from different sources are going to have different descendants.
>There is no "unified front" of OT.
Well, no, since the main topic is Appalachian or Revolutionary and
pre-revolutionary American folk music as preserved in entirely
American regional folk schools. Unfortunately for you, I've never
mentioned singing styles, and unfortunately for you, not even these
preserve Irish ornamental styles. As already mentioned, the so-called
Cape Breton style would be most preserved, and this in Canada mainly,
not the US.
>
>
>>I also said that a
>>"hoedown" which in other regions is called a "clog" was an
>>amalgamation of reel/hornpipe that had a metric accent altogether
>>different than a hornpipe even though it maintained sometimes the 8
>>bar hornpipe construction.
>
>
>Which differs with the observations of Eric Root, above. Again, I stress that
>there is no unified front of OT.
Well, no, it doesn't differ from the observations of Eric Root, and
Root's post isn't comprehensive enough to be of any particular help to
you argument, since your argument isn't my argument anyway.
>You seem to have listened to the people
>least likely to have preserved whatever you were looking for & believed
>they stood for the whole group. Either that or, as seems more & more
>likely, you don't recognize some of this stuff when you hear it.
Since "this stuff" is an Irish-style jig for example, with cuts and
rolls in place on a fiddle (remember, it's fiddling I'm talking
about...of course you don't) or for instance an Irish-style hornpipe,
which is not the same as a "clog" or a "hoedown" or any other
"American" folk-dance, or an Irish-style reel, with cuts, rolls, or
double-cut rolls on FIDDLE in Irish tempo. It seems rather, you aren't
familiar enough with the Irish groove to recognize the fundamentally
different elements of your boasted "American" preservations of same.
Royce
Yeeehaaa!
ghost
>On 21 Dec 1998 05:04:56 GMT, j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>>The OT styles derived mostly from Irish playing preserve lots of the Irish
>>style of playing, the OT styles derived mostly from lowland Scottish playing
>>preserve lots of the lowland Scottish styles of playing, the OT styles derived
>>mostly from Highland Scottish playing preserve lots of the Highland styles of
>>playing, & the OT styles that are an amalgamation of the above, &/or an
>>amalgamation with various African-American styles follow lines that
>>are less preservative of any *one* of the styles in the amalgamation.
>And none of them preserve the Irish basic embellishments, which is the
>only point you keep avoiding, and the only point I've made in this
>entire thread.
Some of them do, some of them don't.
>>Your problem is that you seem to think OT is some kind of a unified front;
>>its not.
>It doesn't matter whether it's unified or not. None of it preserves
>the Irish embellishments.
Some of them don't; some of them do.
>>>was no American school (except Irish urban havens of immigrants, many
>>>of them recent) of "folk" music that had preserved the cuts, rolls,
>>>and double-cut rolls and styles of ornamentation.
>>The important features of timing & ornamentation are all over
>>the singing styles, which is mostly what I pay the most attention to,
>>but I can hear them as well in various instrument styles. So are features
>>like amount of breathiness vs amount of stridency of voice. Again, styles
>>derived from different sources are going to have different descendants.
>>There is no "unified front" of OT.
>Well, no, since the main topic is Appalachian or Revolutionary and
>pre-revolutionary American folk music as preserved in entirely
>American regional folk schools. Unfortunately for you, I've never
>mentioned singing styles, and unfortunately for you, not even these
>preserve Irish ornamental styles.
Fortunately for me (because I love to listen to them) they do preserve
various forms of Irish & Scottish ornamentation & timing styles, as well
as older tuning schemes which are often abandoned by the modern generation
of musicians of *all* the forms, Irish, Scottish *&* American Old Time.
Also fortunately for me, old singing styles predate & prefigure the
old instrumental styles.
You ought to note here that Irish & Scottish styles aren't a unified front,
either.
As already mentioned, the so-called
>Cape Breton style would be most preserved, and this in Canada mainly,
>not the US.
Oh good. You & I agree that Canada is not the US.
>>You seem to have listened to the people
>>least likely to have preserved whatever you were looking for & believed
>>they stood for the whole group. Either that or, as seems more & more
>>likely, you don't recognize some of this stuff when you hear it.
> Since "this stuff" is an Irish-style jig for example, with cuts and
>rolls in place on a fiddle (remember, it's fiddling I'm talking
>about...of course you don't) or for instance an Irish-style hornpipe,
>which is not the same as a "clog" or a "hoedown" or any other
>"American" folk-dance, or an Irish-style reel, with cuts, rolls, or
>double-cut rolls on FIDDLE in Irish tempo. It seems rather, you aren't
>familiar enough with the Irish groove to recognize the fundamentally
>different elements of your boasted "American" preservations of same.
When we originally started discussing this stuff, you were talking
about Scottish piping technique; suddenly you've moved on to
Irish fiddle technique. Somehow, you seem to have convinced yourself that
Irish fiddle styles were what you were talking about all along.
The Irish immigrants, demonstrating their *various* forms of Irish fiddle
technique, were relatively later arrivals onto the North American scene;
never mind, though. Their technique is preserved, along with that
of all those different batches of Scottish immigrants who came earlier,
in different quantities in different regions' & peoples' styles.
Royce Lerwick
>When we originally started discussing this stuff, you were talking
>about Scottish piping technique; suddenly you've moved on to
>Irish fiddle technique. Somehow, you seem to have convinced yourself that
>Irish fiddle styles were what you were talking about all along.
Sorry asshole. This will be my last response to anything you say, and
it's my own fault for responding to this. You're right. I did make a
statement about there being no American--US--piping tradition that was
carried over and preserved. Included in this proposition was an
allusion to fiddle styles, and it was yourself who deviated into the
Cape Breton style, which, you now confess isn't in the US.
>
>The Irish immigrants, demonstrating their *various* forms of Irish fiddle
>technique, were relatively later arrivals onto the North American scene;
>never mind, though.
These were not preserved, these were entirely continued unbroken in
urban areas almost exclusively, and don't really fall into the
category of "American" folk music.
>Their technique is preserved, along with that
>of all those different batches of Scottish immigrants who came earlier,
>in different quantities in different regions' & peoples' styles.
No, sorry. Irish technique and idioms are an almost exclusively urban
tradition in the US. The Scottish fiddle styles are so grossly
bastardized that you simple won't find a hillbilly out there playing a
strathspey.
Royce
And, as you correctly remind me, there is only now emerging a
recognizeable "American" piping tradition in the US. And if you'll
really think hard, the very first topic was the question of Irish and
Scottish technique and tunes were brought over by the best and
brightest--which many many others here put you down into your place to
assert that the first example, pipers, and the second example,
fiddlers, were in Scotland for sure, very privilaged persons and did
not in fact emigrate out of any sort of desperate need for patronage
in the formative years of the nation, or particularly, any time after.
ghost
>On 21 Dec 1998 21:30:40 GMT, j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
>
>>The Irish immigrants, demonstrating their *various* forms of Irish fiddle
>>technique, were relatively later arrivals onto the North American scene;
>These were not preserved, these were entirely continued unbroken in
>urban areas almost exclusively, and don't really fall into the
>category of "American" folk music.
There were plenty of Irish immigrants into rural areas, starting even
before the potato famine years. They & their tunes became part of
American culture in those areas. Ask any historian.
>No, sorry. Irish technique and idioms are an almost exclusively urban
>tradition in the US.
That will come as a real suprise to many southern rural musicians of
Irish descent.
>The Scottish fiddle styles are so grossly
>bastardized that you simple won't find a hillbilly out there playing a
>strathspey.
I don't know anybody who calls themselves a hillbilly, but I do know
some southern Americans of Scottish descent. Doesn't matter if they
*call* what they're playing or singing a strathspey, reel, or whatever;
what matters is what it sounds like.
>the very first topic was the question of Irish and
>Scottish technique and tunes were brought over by the best and
>brightest--which many many others here put you down into your place to
>assert
If there seemed to you to be "many many others" in that discussion
they must have been your alternate personalities.
>that the first example, pipers, and the second example,
>fiddlers, were in Scotland for sure, very privilaged persons and did
>not in fact emigrate out of any sort of desperate need for patronage
>in the formative years of the nation, or particularly, any time after.
They emigrated because their side lost & the other side won.
They got run out. It happens, even to people with great musical talent.
Rob Lindauer
holidays... I don't know Royce from Adam, but the more you spite him,
the more I think he must be OK.
ghost wrote:
>
> Which is something Royce Lerwick entirely overlooked, forgot or
> never bothered to find out before going into one of his
> "the southern North Americans have preserved hardly anything" bits.
--
Rob Lindauer -- For my real address, use "rlindau" rather than
"ihatespam"