Irish style Tenor Banjo players, I need your help.
Brent Santin
Last year I purchased a tenor banjo, dating from the 1920's. It's an
open-backed model, with friction tuning pegs. Similar to a VEGA, but
with no maker's mark anywhere to be seen.
It's great, but the previous owner played it with the Dixieland tuning
in based on the key of "C".
I tried tuning to "D" (common for Irish tenor banjo). I went online
and read several Irish tenor banjo FAQs about how to do it. I bought
the correct guage strings.
But when I tried to use them on my banjo, it just sounded very loose
and flappy and really bad. I tried several times with slightly
different guages of strings, as suggested by Irish tenor banjo
players, but it all sounded like crap.
Eventually, I just put a "C" set of strings back on the banjo, and it
sounded as bright and lively as ever. But I'd like to retune it to
"D", like all the other Irish tenor banjo players do successfully, it
seems.
Is there something I'm doing wrong?
Brent
wooden...@yahoo.ca
MMcC
wrote:
There are Tenor Banjos with varying lengths of necks out there, suonds
like you have one of the longer necked ones.
It is common for people with longer necked Tenor banjos to use a capo
on the 2nd fret, which of course puts you in the key of D.
Probably makes it slightly easier to play too, as the finger stretches
are not as great.
Like I've said, I've seen more than a few people do this.
es...@cox.net
on several banjos:
Scale length 22"
E .012" plain steel == 17.38 lbs tension
A, .016" plain steel== 13.76 lbs tension
D, .026" stainless steel wrapped == 13.55 lbs tension
G,, .036" stainless steel wrapped == 11.33 lbs tension
total == 56.03 lbs tension
What is the scale length of your banjo? Most are in the 20 to 23"
range.
Cheers,
Michael
On Wed, 05 Feb 2003 21:24:28 GMT, MMcC <inisN...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Rex Hunt
news:fdf92243.03020...@posting.google.com...
Brent,
I'm not an Irish player but I do have a few tenors and have done some
research myself and have never come across a "D" tuning. I thought the
Irish tuning was "G" with the notes GDAE (low to high) an octave below the
mandolin/violin. I buy octave mandolin strings and they work fine on my 17
fret tenors - and I get two sets. I have heard that Irish Bouzouki (?sp)
strings will work too.
Rex
Brent Santin
> On 5 Feb 2003 12:10:08 -0800, wooden...@yahoo.ca (Brent Santin)
> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Last year I purchased a tenor banjo, dating from the 1920's. It's an
> >open-backed model, with friction tuning pegs. Similar to a VEGA, but
> >with no maker's mark anywhere to be seen.
> >
> >It's great, but the previous owner played it with the Dixieland tuning
> >in based on the key of "C".
>
> on the 2nd fret, which of course puts you in the key of D.
> Probably makes it slightly easier to play too, as the finger stretches
> are not as great.
> Like I've said, I've seen more than a few people do this.
Oh, Thanks! That's a simple fix. I know I was playing around with a
capo on it a while ago, but I missed this! Thank you.
Brent
MMcC
wrote:
>MMcC <inisN...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<nsv24vsbhop5k2nts...@4ax.com>...
>> On 5 Feb 2003 12:10:08 -0800, wooden...@yahoo.ca (Brent Santin)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi,
>> >
>> >Last year I purchased a tenor banjo, dating from the 1920's. It's an
>> >open-backed model, with friction tuning pegs. Similar to a VEGA, but
>> >with no maker's mark anywhere to be seen.
>> >
>> >It's great, but the previous owner played it with the Dixieland tuning
>> >in based on the key of "C".
>>
>> It is common for people with longer necked Tenor banjos to use a capo
>> on the 2nd fret, which of course puts you in the key of D.
I should clarify that it doesn't nessecarily put you in the key of D
per se. What I meant is that it puts you in GDAE like a fiddle or a
mandolin.... which is suited to playing tunes in the key of D.. as
well as G and A and their relative minors.
I'm presuming your present tuning is FCGD... am I right?
MMcC
wrote:
Yes that is how one would tune a Tenor to play Irish music.... well I
suppose you could tune it any way you wanted, put that's the standard
way of doing it.
Sometimes you'll encounter a Tenor with a longer neck scale and what
most people do is to tune it FCGD and put a capo on the 2nd fret
putting you in GDAE right along with the fiddles et al...
MMcC
wrote:
>>>
>>> It is common for people with longer necked Tenor banjos to use a capo
>>> on the 2nd fret, which of course puts you in the key of D.
>
>I should clarify that it doesn't nessecarily put you in the key of D
>per se. What I meant is that it puts you in GDAE like a fiddle or a
>mandolin.... which is suited to playing tunes in the key of D.. as
>well as G and A and their relative minors.
>
>I'm presuming your present tuning is FCGD... am I right?
It just occurred to me that you might be using a CGDA tuning, which is
traditionally how one would tune a Dixieland banjo.
In which case the whole capo on the 2nd fret thing really doesn't
apply as you would be in DAEB, which is kinda weird for Irish music.
You really need the low G string for a lot of tunes..... unless you
want to immitate flute players and play around those notes.
If I'm not mistaken the strings used by Irish Tenor players are
apparently thicker and heavier than their Dixieland counterparts, so
that could be where you problem is.
I'm sorry if i caused any confusion earlier.
Brent Santin
> Here's a Irish tenor banjo string gauge setups I use for GDAE tuning
> on several banjos:
>
> Scale length 22"
>
> E .012" plain steel == 17.38 lbs tension
> A, .016" plain steel== 13.76 lbs tension
> D, .026" stainless steel wrapped == 13.55 lbs tension
> G,, .036" stainless steel wrapped == 11.33 lbs tension
> total == 56.03 lbs tension
>
> What is the scale length of your banjo? Most are in the 20 to 23"
> range.
What exactly is "Scale Length"? The length from nut to bridge?
Brent
Brent Santin
> >I should clarify that it doesn't nessecarily put you in the key of D
> >per se. What I meant is that it puts you in GDAE like a fiddle or a
> >mandolin.... which is suited to playing tunes in the key of D.. as
> >well as G and A and their relative minors.
> >
> >I'm presuming your present tuning is FCGD... am I right?
>
>
> It just occurred to me that you might be using a CGDA tuning, which is
> traditionally how one would tune a Dixieland banjo.
Yeah, my tenor banjo is CGDA....I tried Capo-ing it up 2 frets and it
didn't work, so I guess I should have been clearer about that earlier.
I want my banjo to be able to play an octave below a mandolin or
fiddle, so I don't have to re-learn all the fingering. Some people on
this thread are saying I should tune it with the base string being
"F"....but does this require a different guage of strings?
Brent
Brent Santin
> "Brent Santin" <wooden...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> news:fdf92243.03020...@posting.google.com...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Last year I purchased a tenor banjo, dating from the 1920's. It's an
> > open-backed model, with friction tuning pegs. Similar to a VEGA, but
> > with no maker's mark anywhere to be seen.
> >
> > It's great, but the previous owner played it with the Dixieland tuning
> > in based on the key of "C".
> >
> > I tried tuning to "D" (common for Irish tenor banjo). I went online
> > and read several Irish tenor banjo FAQs about how to do it. I bought
> > the correct guage strings.
> I'm not an Irish player but I do have a few tenors and have done some
> research myself and have never come across a "D" tuning. I thought the
> Irish tuning was "G" with the notes GDAE (low to high) an octave below the
> mandolin/violin. I buy octave mandolin strings and they work fine on my 17
> fret tenors - and I get two sets. I have heard that Irish Bouzouki (?sp)
> strings will work too.
I'm sorry, yes, you are right. I want to tune the banjo so it's an
octave lower than a fiddle or mandolin, so that I can play easily in
the key of "D" withough having to relearn the fingerings I used on my
mandolin....the strings should still be GDAE as you mentioned....sorry
for the confusion.
Brent
Brent Santin
> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:44:35 -0500, "Rex Hunt" <hu...@indiana.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >"Brent Santin" <wooden...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >news:fdf92243.03020...@posting.google.com...
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Last year I purchased a tenor banjo, dating from the 1920's. It's an
> >> open-backed model, with friction tuning pegs. Similar to a VEGA, but
> >> with no maker's mark anywhere to be seen.
> >>
> >> It's great, but the previous owner played it with the Dixieland tuning
> >> in based on the key of "C".
>
> most people do is to tune it FCGD and put a capo on the 2nd fret
> putting you in GDAE right along with the fiddles et al...
Yes, this is EXACTLY what I need to do, as I suspect I have a 'Longer'
necked tenor banjo. But what guages of string do I need to tune it to
FCGD? It currently has a CGDA set on there now.
If someone can give me the guages, I think I would have the problem
solved.
Brent
Brent Santin
> wrote:
>
> >"Brent Santin" <wooden...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
> >news:fdf92243.03020...@posting.google.com...
> >> I tried tuning to "D" [Oops, I meant GDAE]. And went online
> >> and read several Irish tenor banjo FAQs about how to do it. I bought
> >> the correct guage strings.
> >>
> >> But when I tried to use them on my banjo, it just sounded very loose
> >> and flappy and really bad. I tried several times with slightly
> >> different guages of strings, as suggested by Irish tenor banjo
> >> players, but it all sounded like crap.
> >>
> >> Eventually, I just put a "C" set of strings back on the banjo, and it
> >> sounded as bright and lively as ever. But I'd like to retune it to
> >> "D", like all the other Irish tenor banjo players do successfully, it
> >> seems.
>
> Sometimes you'll encounter a Tenor with a longer neck scale and what
> most people do is to tune it FCGD and put a capo on the 2nd fret
> putting you in GDAE right along with the fiddles et al...
But wait, I just thought of something....the whole problem is that
when I strung by banjo as low as GDAE, it sounded very flappy and
terrible. If I were to go even LOWER to FCGD.....wouldn't I encounter
just the same problem?
What I need is a way to play in GDAE on my tenor banjo, while still
having a good sound. Many many Irish style players seem to be able to
do it, so I wonder why I am having so many problems. The instrument
sounds great with its current set of CGDA strings.
Brent
MMcC
wrote:
>MMcC <inisN...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rqj54v8moq20rt42b...@4ax.com>...
>> On Thu, 6 Feb 2003 11:44:35 -0500, "Rex Hunt" <hu...@indiana.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >"Brent Santin" <wooden...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>> >news:fdf92243.03020...@posting.google.com...
>
>> >> I tried tuning to "D" [Oops, I meant GDAE]. And went online
>> >> and read several Irish tenor banjo FAQs about how to do it. I bought
>> >> the correct guage strings.
>> >>
>> >> But when I tried to use them on my banjo, it just sounded very loose
>> >> and flappy and really bad. I tried several times with slightly
>> >> different guages of strings, as suggested by Irish tenor banjo
>> >> players, but it all sounded like crap.
>> >>
>> >> Eventually, I just put a "C" set of strings back on the banjo, and it
>> >> sounded as bright and lively as ever. But I'd like to retune it to
>> >> "D", like all the other Irish tenor banjo players do successfully, it
>> >> seems.
>>
>> Sometimes you'll encounter a Tenor with a longer neck scale and what
>> most people do is to tune it FCGD and put a capo on the 2nd fret
>> putting you in GDAE right along with the fiddles et al...
>
>But wait, I just thought of something....the whole problem is that
>when I strung by banjo as low as GDAE, it sounded very flappy and
>terrible. If I were to go even LOWER to FCGD.....wouldn't I encounter
>just the same problem?
Yes probably with your current gauge of strings.. i.e the ones you are
using for the CGDA.
The problem I believe is in the GAUGE of stings you are using, the
strings preferred by Irish Tenors tend to be fairly heavy for that
chunky, raspy sound.
I'm sorry I don't know what those gauges are, but I do know a couple
of banjer players (yes I admit to that in a public forum :)......) and
if I run into them over the weekend I will ask what guages they use
and post it here.
You might also try asking on the IRTRAD-L mailing list too. You can
join the list at this webpage...
http://listserv.heanet.ie/irtrad-l.html
I'm sure there are at least a few tenor banjo players on that list who
could give you a timely answer.
MMcC
wrote:
>MMcC <inisN...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<dck54vo5abo2fionk...@4ax.com>...
Yes, I believe therein lies your problem.... see my other post.
>Brent
MMcC
wrote:
On the Hobgoblin website here are the gauges they list for the irish
Tenor strings they sell.
Irish Tenor Banjo
Light
011, 015, 024w, 036w
Medium
012, 016, 026w, 038w
Heavy
.013 .020w .030w .040w
I hope that helps.
As you can see those Heavy gauge are pretty heavy!!
Emmanuel Delahaye
> The problem I believe is in the GAUGE of stings you are using, the
> strings preferred by Irish Tenors tend to be fairly heavy for that
> chunky, raspy sound.
>
> I'm sorry I don't know what those gauges are, but I do know a couple
> of banjer players (yes I admit to that in a public forum :)......) and
> if I run into them over the weekend I will ask what guages they use
> and post it here.
>
> You might also try asking on the IRTRAD-L mailing list too. You can
> join the list at this webpage...
> http://listserv.heanet.ie/irtrad-l.html
> I'm sure there are at least a few tenor banjo players on that list who
> could give you a timely answer.
Let's try:
I use .40 .32 .18 .13 on my Sully tenor banjo tuned in GDAE. The length of
the string is like a folk guitar (or an Irish Bouzouki like my P.Abnett)
minus 3 frets.
--
-ed- emdel at noos.fr ~]=[o
FAQ de f.c.l.c : http://www.isty-info.uvsq.fr/~rumeau/fclc/
C-library: http://www.dinkumware.com/manuals/reader.aspx
"Give peace a chance!"
Paul Magnussen
to be the problem -- you should be able to get what you want from Hobgoblin.
However, for future reference, you might want to take a look at alt.banjo.
A lot of the discussion there is about Bluegrass, but ther are several people
there who are *extremely* knowledgable and helpful, and very few seem to flame
or try show off, as you often unfortunately see on other newsgroups.
Hope this helps.
Paul Magnussen
To send me e-mail, adjust aol's name in the signature.
Brent Santin
> >when I strung by banjo as low as GDAE, it sounded very flappy and
> >terrible. If I were to go even LOWER to FCGD.....wouldn't I encounter
> >just the same problem?
>
> Yes probably with your current gauge of strings.. i.e the ones you are
> using for the CGDA.
>
> The problem I believe is in the GAUGE of stings you are using, the
> strings preferred by Irish Tenors tend to be fairly heavy for that
> chunky, raspy sound.
Well, what I forgot to mention is that my Banjo sounded bad and flappy
in GDAE even WHEN I used heavier guage strings. (I got the guages of
either the Hobgoblin site, or the tenor banjo FAQ).
For those who were asking, I have looked at my tenor banjo again: It
has 17 wire frets before the fingerboard meets the rim, or 18 spaces
between the frets (including the space between the nut & first fret
wire, and the space between the last fret wire and the rim).
The length of the fretboard/fingerboard from nut to rim is 13.5
inches, or 21 inches from nut to bridge.
Does anyone know if this makes my banjo one of the longer types? Or
is that the shorter type of tenor banjo?
I posted some (bad quality, but good enough) pictures of my banjo at:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/clarke-santin/banjo/banjo1.jpg
http://www3.sympatico.ca/clarke-santin/banjo/banjo2.jpg
The yellow tape-measure shown in the photos is extended to 12 inches
for scale.
These may help in identifying if it's a longer neck one or not.
Thanks,
Brent
Brent Santin
> on several banjos:
>
> Scale length 22"
>
> E .012" plain steel == 17.38 lbs tension
> A, .016" plain steel== 13.76 lbs tension
> D, .026" stainless steel wrapped == 13.55 lbs tension
> G,, .036" stainless steel wrapped == 11.33 lbs tension
> total == 56.03 lbs tension
>
> What is the scale length of your banjo? Most are in the 20 to 23"
> range.
I posted another message in this thread with measurements & images of
my banjo....so maybe you can tell me. (it's 21 inches from nut to
bridge, though).
Just curious, how does your banjo sound? And what sort of sound
should I expect from GDAE tuning? Are my expectations too high to
want bright sound and GDAE tuning? I'm fairly sure I did try it with
string wieghts similar to your suggested ones, and unfortunatly, on my
banjo, it sounded very dreadful....i.e. not something you would want
to take in public....as I said though, CGDA with proper guages for
that tuning, sounds very nice. Hmmm....
Brent
Tim Dellinger
>I'm fairly sure I did try it with
>string wieghts similar to your suggested ones, and unfortunatly, on my
>banjo, it sounded very dreadful....i.e. not something you would want
>to take in public....as I said though, CGDA with proper guages for
>that tuning, sounds very nice. Hmmm....
Just to make sure:
Are aware that, unlike the guitar (where there are very few variables
under your control besides string gauge), banjos are infintely tweakable?
People often find that a banjo that sounds terrible can be transformed
into a banjo that sounds marvelous by tightening or loosening the
head, changing the tailpiece, changing the bridge, etc. Some people
spend more time messin' with their banjo trying to get a better sound
out of it than they do actually playing the thing!
Have you tried tightening/loosening the head? Proper head tension
for one gauge of strings might not be the proper head tension for
a different gauge of strings.
Tim
--
Tim Dellinger www.ews.uiuc.edu/~tdelling
tdel...@uiuc.edu