Irish flute camp?
Michael Faison
I've reached a plateau in my progress on Irish flute after two years,
and would like to get some lessons to get going again. I live in the
middle of nowhere (see my sig), so it would be hard for me to find a
master flute player to apprentice with.
When I used to play Balkan music I made a lot of progress by going to
Balkan music camp at Mendocino, CA for two summmers. I'm looking for
something similar for Celtic music. I've heard of Chris Norman's
"Boxwood" camp, which last year was in Halifax and was too expensive
for me.
Does anyone know of any good Irish music camps this summer?
--
Michael Faison ,
mfa...@aoc.nrao.edu ' ' . .
http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~faison . .
National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro, NM
Lawrence E Mallette
: Does anyone know of any good Irish music camps this summer?
Go to Swannanoa Celtic Week and study with Grey Larsen.
You'll pick up an awful lot in a short time, and there
are great sessions every night.
There's also Augusta, but haven't heard who's teaching
flute this year.
Brad Hurley
Mallette) wrote:
There's also the Lark in the Morning music camp; Jack Gilder, a good flute
player from the San Francisco area, usually teaches there. That might be
closer.
--
Brad Hurley
"Do what you most want to do, whether or not it is of any value to anyone else."
--MFK Fisher
ghost
>In article <7467pp$q...@ns2.bcm.tmc.edu>, mall...@bcm.tmc.edu (Lawrence E
>Mallette) wrote:
>
>>Michael Faison (mfa...@aoc.nrao.edu) wrote:
>>: Does anyone know of any good Irish music camps this summer?
>>Go to Swannanoa Celtic Week and study with Grey Larsen.
>>You'll pick up an awful lot in a short time, and there
>>are great sessions every night.
>>There's also Augusta, but haven't heard who's teaching
>>flute this year.
>There's also the Lark in the Morning music camp; Jack Gilder, a good flute
>player from the San Francisco area, usually teaches there. That might be
>closer.
The best advice is to look for music camps being taught by people who
know 1st-hand the music they're trying to teach, not people coming over
from other disciplines trying to cash in on the current Celtic craze.
Grey Larsen is on some very nice "new New England-ish" kind of recordings
from the 80s, but is there any evidence that he knows anything about
trad Irish flute playing? What trad Irish musicians has he recorded
&/or toured with? Studied with? Learned anything from?
I know nothing about Jack Gilder; what groups has he toured with?
What recordings is he on? What's his background?
It seems that if there's so much work going around in the Irish-music-camp
area that the current bunch of touring musicians can't fill it, somebody
should be importing people from Ireland who know their stuff but don't tour.
The teachers would have a job in the States with hopefully some time left
over to see some sights &/or visit some relatives, & the students
would actually learn some things they can't learn from generic musicians
of other disciplines.
Brad Hurley
ghost ) wrote:
>Grey Larsen is on some very nice "new New England-ish" kind of recordings
>from the 80s, but is there any evidence that he knows anything about
>trad Irish flute playing? What trad Irish musicians has he recorded
>&/or toured with? Studied with? Learned anything from?
Grey Larsen is a respected player and teacher of traditional Irish flute
and is completing a book on the subject. He has recorded with Kevin Burke,
among others, and has learned from a number of Irish players including Tom
Byrne, a flute player from Co. Sligo now living in Cleveland.
>I know nothing about Jack Gilder; what groups has he toured with?
>What recordings is he on? What's his background?
Jack Gilder has recorded two albums with the excellent Irish fiddler Dale
Russ as the group "Jody's Heaven" (Foxglove Records). He also plays Anglo
concertina and has studied extensively with Noel Hill.
>It seems that if there's so much work going around in the Irish-music-camp
>area that the current bunch of touring musicians can't fill it, somebody
>should be importing people from Ireland who know their stuff but don't tour.
The camps routinely do so. Paul McGrattan was teaching at Augusta last summer.
>The teachers would have a job in the States with hopefully some time left
>over to see some sights &/or visit some relatives, & the students
>would actually learn some things they can't learn from generic musicians
>of other disciplines.
I don't believe any of the camps mentioned provide "generic musicians of
other disciplines." The instructors mentioned are well-known among
traditional Irish flute players both here in the States and in Ireland.
--
Brad Hurley
"Wonder is the heaviest element on the periodic table. Even a tiny fleck
of it stops time."
-- Diane Ackerman, _The Rarest of the Rare_
Stephen Kendall
> The best advice is to look for music camps being taught by people who
> know 1st-hand the music they're trying to teach, not people coming over
> from other disciplines trying to cash in on the current Celtic craze.
>
> from the 80s, but is there any evidence that he knows anything about
> trad Irish flute playing? What trad Irish musicians has he recorded
> &/or toured with? Studied with? Learned anything from?
Grey Larsen began studying with Irish musicians living in Ohio quite a
long time ago. He is hardly cashing in on the current Celtic craze. He
has toured and recorded with Keving Burke and has learned from Josie
McDermott in Ireland.
Steve
Lawrence E Mallette
: In article <bhurley-0312...@usr1a34.bf.sover.net> bhu...@sover.net (Brad Hurley) writes:
: The best advice is to look for music camps being taught by people who
: know 1st-hand the music they're trying to teach, not people coming over
: from other disciplines trying to cash in on the current Celtic craze.
I would agree with this advice wholeheartedly. I have taken
workshops with some of the big name teachers, as well as with
Grey - and I learned in more depth about trad Irish ornamentation
in his week of classes than I had from all the others. They all
had their strong points and I learned a lot from each, but Grey
was very thorough, and is in fact connected to the tradition.
I wouldn't necessarily copy his playing style, but to learn
the elements of the ornamentation, you won't go wrong here.
You can then use what you learn while copping tunes and style off
the couple o' dozen top Irish fluters who have CDs current.
FWIW, John Skelton will also be at Swannanoa, and is a
very good teacher with a style some would consider more trad.
than Grey's. Either would be a good one to learn from.
The _best_ teacher I've had, actually for the
shortest time, was Noel Rice of Chicago. Anyone living
near there should try to get lessons with him, but
I don't think he goes to any camps.
: Grey Larsen is on some very nice "new New England-ish" kind of recordings
: from the 80s, but is there any evidence that he knows anything about
: trad Irish flute playing?
Yes, the evidence my own ears gathered while I was playing
in sessions with him 4 days last summer at Swannanoa.
: ....What trad Irish musicians has he recorded
: &/or toured with? Studied with? Learned anything from?
Let's let him answer that.
: It seems that if there's so much work going around in the Irish-music-camp
: area that the current bunch of touring musicians can't fill it, somebody
: should be importing people from Ireland who know their stuff but don't tour.
Cool idea. Only problem, the camps don't want to place their
bets on an unknown entity. Not all good players can teach
well. Still, it would be nice for them to take a chance,
offer some alternatives.
: The teachers would have a job in the States with hopefully some time left
: over to see some sights &/or visit some relatives, & the students
: would actually learn some things they can't learn from generic musicians
: of other disciplines.
Yes, t'would be a grand opportunity for all.
But it won't solve our inquirer's problem for this summer.
Have a nice tune!
Larry
John & Cathleen Halliburton
Lawrence E Mallette wrote:
> The _best_ teacher I've had, actually for the
> shortest time, was Noel Rice of Chicago. Anyone living
> near there should try to get lessons with him, but
> I don't think he goes to any camps.
Noel sometimes/usually teaches up in Milwaukee at the school organized
the week before Irish Fest, the third weekend in August. I am not sure
if he has been asked to do some classes for next year. Obviously, you might
be able to arrange something with him if you do come to Chicago at all.
Best Regards,
John Halliburton
ghost
>I have taken
>workshops with some of the big name teachers, as well as with
>Grey - and I learned in more depth about trad Irish ornamentation
>in his week of classes than I had from all the others. They all
>had their strong points and I learned a lot from each, but Grey
>was very thorough, and is in fact connected to the tradition.
>I wouldn't necessarily copy his playing style, but to learn
>the elements of the ornamentation, you won't go wrong here.
>You can then use what you learn while copping tunes and style off
>the couple o' dozen top Irish fluters who have CDs current.
There's a real question here as to what's a good approach in teaching;
teach a particular style that you're well-versed in or give a
"survey course" as Larsen seems to be doing. A survey course could
be good for the rank beginner, but would not be much to the point for
someone interested in learning a *particular* style.
One of the things that kind of mushes over & smooths out the idiosyncracies
of regional styles in Irish music is when people do a "mix-&-match"
approach as you talk about above.
Its also a point to be considered that not all great players *can* teach,
but there those that *are* great trad players of specific regional styles
who *can* teach. Anyone who hasn't figured out how to articulate
what they do in such a way as to get it across to students isn't going
to last long teaching unless they have the stature of "I just want to
be in the room with them" to their students (& maybe not even then).
I had said:
>: Grey Larsen is on some very nice "new New England-ish" kind of recordings
>: from the 80s, but is there any evidence that he knows anything about
>: trad Irish flute playing?
>Yes, the evidence my own ears gathered while I was playing
>in sessions with him 4 days last summer at Swannanoa.
Yeah, but your ears tend toward smoothing out & toning down various
aspects of the music, as judged by your recommendations because
of their overtone spectrum & intonation of various whistles over
other whistles.
Also, any ears that tolerate, let alone *like* "Madam Butterfly" & co
& various early-music deals, as you've bragged on *loving* in the past,
are suspect when it comes to recommending trad Irish instrument tutorials,
unless they are ears that have a long-standing grounding in trad Irish
music along with their demented other tastes. I'm not so convinced that
your background in Irish-trad is *that* well-grounded. Better than some,
but you still come from an alien discipline.
>: ....What trad Irish musicians has he recorded
>: &/or toured with? Studied with? Learned anything from?
>Let's let him answer that.
Someone else mentioned Kevin Burke, but I've never heard Larsen
on tour with Burke or on record with him. Also, Burke plays in a few
(very good) fusion bands in which Burke is the only trad-Irish-style
player, so someone appearing with Burke is not necessarily a recommendation
of their *trad Irish* playing, though it would be a recommendation of
their playing in general.
There's another factor here that applies to even a very good but
new-to-the-music student, coming from a different style of playing,
teaching newer students; at some point you have the teacher giving answers
to "how did you get that effect" that are not what a both more accomplished
& more traditional player would have given. The answer will be something
that *works* for the new-to-the-music teacher, but it might be that it
doesn't work as well for that particular kind of music as what the older
& trad player, who doesn't have to worry about keeping up their versatility
in *other* styles, because they don't play in those other styles,
would have given.
Lawrence E Mallette
last word.....(so this will be my last words on the subject):
ghost (j...@deas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: There's a real question here as to what's a good approach in teaching;
: teach a particular style that you're well-versed in or give a
: "survey course" as Larsen seems to be doing.
You are Out to Lunch, Ms. ghost. This was hardly a survey
course. It was the most in-depth and complete exposition
of traditional Irish ornamentation I have seen anywhere.
: .........A survey course could
: be good for the rank beginner, but would not be much to the point for
: someone interested in learning a *particular* style.
I'm not at all interested in learning a particular style. I
am trying to develop my own style. Regional styles are long
gone. I have several recordings of the older flute players.
Some I like, some I don't: John McKenna I don't like (enough
to emulate). Josie McDermott is one whose flute style I do
like intensely, but know I'll never be able to approach.
These are just examples.
: One of the things that kind of mushes over & smooths out the idiosyncracies
: of regional styles in Irish music is when people do a "mix-&-match"
: approach as you talk about above.
Yes that's exactly what's happening in Ireland today, to say
nothing of the USA. Like it or not, modern transportation and
electronics have given everyone access to lots of different
ways of playing. It's bound to even out regionality eventually.
: Its also a point to be considered that not all great players *can* teach,
-snip-
That's what I said. The folks who run these camps want a
proven entity, and feel they can't take a chance on someone
who is not a proven teacher. They also want someone with a
"name". Thus, there are probably many great teachers who
will never get invited to teach in a US camp because of
these two factors.
: Yeah, but your ears tend toward smoothing out & toning down various
: aspects of the music, as judged by your recommendations because
: of their overtone spectrum & intonation of various whistles over
: other whistles.
Good grief!
Ghost, you are invited to listen to my playing, and give
whatever critique you like of my ear or style, after you
have some first hand knowledge of it.
I'll soon announce how you can have a listen to my
Irish music playing.
What whistle do you play, btw?
: Also, any ears that tolerate, let alone *like* "Madam Butterfly" & co
You are sick, ya' know.
_You_ don't like classical operatic vocal production, but
that doesn't mean other intelligent beings could not
possibly appreciate it. It is really rather sad that
you are so handicapped as to not be able to enjoy
works like this for what they are.
: & various early-music deals, as you've bragged on *loving* in the past,
Same comment above. You have my condolence for your limited
range of appreciation. Again, you are invited to listen to
my playing in this genre and decide for yourself whether it
fits your rigid criteria. Web to bandstore.com and look under
the group name 'Istanpitta'.
: are suspect when it comes to recommending trad Irish instrument tutorials,
And what, prey tell, does one have to do with the other? Can
one not play and/or enjoy two or three types of music?
: unless they are ears that have a long-standing grounding in trad Irish
: music along with their demented other tastes.
I never claimed to be grounded in traditional Irish music. In fact
I have openly claimed to be hoping to learn how to play half as
well as the average native Irish player. Starting at age 48 is not
the way to become well grounded in a genre.
BTW, it does not seem to be a very productive approach, or
in very good taste, to label as demented anyone whose likes
differ from yours.
: ...... I'm not so convinced that
: your background in Irish-trad is *that* well-grounded.
Who tried to convince you? I certainly didn't.
End
H Gilmer
: Someone else mentioned Kevin Burke
So you accept Kevin Burke as an exponent of traditional Irish music?
Guess what? He doesn't think the regional styles are regional any
more either. The styles are still out there, but they're chosen as a
matter of taste and not geography.
So, gonna cross him off your list?
Hg
Brad Hurley
gil...@mail.take.this.out.utexas.edu wrote:
>So you accept Kevin Burke as an exponent of traditional Irish music?
>
>Guess what? He doesn't think the regional styles are regional any
>more either. The styles are still out there, but they're chosen as a
>matter of taste and not geography.
In fact the regional styles were never quite as distinct as some
folklorists led us to believe. Ireland is not a big country, and while
it's true that some musicians stayed close to home it's also true that
many of them traveled or were exposed to traveling musicians. Johnny
Doran, the great piper who traveled all over Ireland, influenced pipers
all over the country. Willie Clancy was from Clare, but was influenced by
Doran, and Willie himself traveled widely and picked up influences from
other players. The late great Clare fiddler Patrick Kelly was strongly
influenced by a Kerry fiddler who visited his house often when he was
young.
Even within the regional styles there are enormous variations based on
individual musicians' own preferences and influences. Take for example
Jack Coen and Mike Rafferty, both from East Galway. Their playing styles
are poles apart, sharing a common rhythm and pacing but very different
ornamentation and settings. Their versions of the same tunes are
strikingly different.
I do think it's important to become familiar with the broad characterists
of the various regional styles in Irish music, but I think for an American
to slavishly copy a regional style would be like singing a song with a
fake Irish accent. I'm not from Galway, so why should I limit myself to
playing in a Galway style?
--
Brad Hurley
"I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey-work of the stars...
And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels."
--Walt Whitman
H Gilmer
Brad Hurley (bhu...@sover.net) wrote:
: I think for an American
: to slavishly copy a regional style would be like singing a song with a
: fake Irish accent.
I have absolutely nothing of substance to add. I just really, really
liked that bit.
Hg
(I knew I liked you for a reason, Brad!)
ghost
>>So you accept Kevin Burke as an exponent of traditional Irish music?
No, I'm well aware that he has a paired background in classical & Irish
fiddling. At some point (fairly early) in his life he seems to have decided
what the good stuff is, though. And he manages to keep any vestige of the
classical garbage at a minimum to nil at all the concerts I've seen him at.
For fiddlers, he's probably a good person to tell those impaired by
classical training what parts of their training they have to lose, & how.
>I do think it's important to become familiar with the broad characterists
>of the various regional styles in Irish music, but I think for an American
>to slavishly copy a regional style would be like singing a song with a
>fake Irish accent.
And I think this is ridiculous; playing an instrument gives you more of
a chance to really get into a style than singing does. Singing in a
regional accent that you don't speak in makes you look like an idiot,
& I would never do it other than as an obvious joke on a joke song.
I do, however adopt all the musical features of a singing style that
*don't* involve changing the way I pronounce words, but the "wrong accent"
is always going to be a dead giveaway that the style was learned at a
later date than the accent. When you play an instrument you can escape
that kind of distancing from the music.
So; even though you advertise yourself as an expert on Irish music &
teacher of workshops in it throughout New England, you publically admit
you haven't bothered to master any Irish regional style, & that all you're
capable of reproducing are "broad characteristics" of various styles?
Brad Hurley
ghost ) wrote:
>No, I'm well aware that he has a paired background in classical & Irish
>fiddling.
Actually I wasn't aware that Kevin Burke had any classical training.
>So; even though you advertise yourself as an expert on Irish music &
>teacher of workshops in it throughout New England, you publically admit
>you haven't bothered to master any Irish regional style, & that all you're
>capable of reproducing are "broad characteristics" of various styles?
I'm certainly no "expert" on Irish music, although I have played
traditional Irish music for 22 years. My own playing style could probably
be described as a blend of Sligo-Roscommon and Galway styles, a not
uncommon blend among many traditional flute players today, but my style is
also influenced by piping and fiddling techniques (I played uilleann pipes
for 7 years). But I think of my playing as being influenced mainly by
individual players, such as Catherine McEvoy, Mike Rafferty, and Jack
Coen, rather than by a particular "regional" style. Nothing wrong with
that. If you ask virtually any traditional player living today, young or
old, they would probably tell you their playing was influenced by specific
people, not by some generic regional style that they've attempted to
master.
--
Brad Hurley
"I would like to die
as I have lived
disappear among the tundra winds
be transformed into birdsong"
-Nils-aslak Valkeappa, _Trekways of the Wind_
H Gilmer
: >>So you accept Kevin Burke as an exponent of traditional Irish music?
: No, I'm well aware that he has a paired background in classical & Irish
: fiddling.
Okay, so you *don't* accept Kevin Burke as an exponent of traditional
Irish music? He'd be interested to know that.
Regarding classical garbage, Seamus Connolly obviously doesn't play
like one. But he gives the impression, in conversation, that he'd
really like to play classical music. And he points out what aspects
of classical training would be useful to any fiddler. Hell, he says
you should call it a violin! Burn him! So is everyone who likes
classical music a complete idiot and therefore unqualified to play
Irish music? Or were you mugged outside Carnegie Hall in your
formative years?
Lissen, a lot of traditional, born-bred-raised-in-the-tradition,
musicians do in fact like other styles of music. Opera, classical,
early music. Rock and roll, music of the devil. There ain't no law
against it, municipal, natural, or whatever.
: So; even though you advertise yourself as an expert on Irish music &
: teacher of workshops in it throughout New England, you publically admit
: you haven't bothered to master any Irish regional style, & that all you're
: capable of reproducing are "broad characteristics" of various styles?
Have you ever heard the man play? And would you, as an avowed
noninstrumentalist, have even half a clue of what you were hearing?
What are *your* credentials? Been to Ireland? Studied at the feet of
the masters? What masters? Have they ever been exposed to classical
music? Ooh, then they don't count.
Get real.
Hg
ghost
>Lissen, a lot of traditional, born-bred-raised-in-the-tradition,
>musicians do in fact like other styles of music. Opera, classical,
>early music. Rock and roll, music of the devil. There ain't no law
>against it, municipal, natural, or whatever.
Yeah, & they know the distinct differences between the styles they
like, too. Whereas people who were trained 1st in European classical
music always bring with them the opinion that every other kind of music
is just for goofing off. And most of them have had any vestige of
being able to hear the harmonic tunings that are the basis of
all forms of traditional music drilled right out of them.
Anyone who trained for 40+ years in unmelodic sound-progressions that use
a non-harmonics-based scale is not someone I'd take as an authority
on traditional music, no matter where they were born & bred.
>Have you ever heard the man play?
Who knows? Lots of sessions around here.
When people are really *good*, I try to find out who they are.
So far no-one I've asked to be named to me has been called "Brad Hurley".
>And would you, as an avowed
>noninstrumentalist, have even half a clue of what you were hearing?
Sure. I have even more of a clue of what I'm hearing when I listen
to singers, though.
>What are *your* credentials?
I listen a lot.
Been to Ireland?
As a tourist for a week. Saw lots of scenery, which is what I went for.
If I'd known for sure where to go for music I'd have gone to hear more.
But I *do* live in the Boston area. *Lots* of terrific musicians
pass through here both for concerts & informal sessions.
Stephen Kendall
> And most of them have had any vestige of
> being able to hear the harmonic tunings that are the basis of
> all forms of traditional music drilled right out of them.
>
> Anyone who trained for 40+ years in unmelodic sound-progressions that use
> a non-harmonics-based scale is not someone I'd take as an authority
> on traditional music, no matter where they were born & bred.
I wonder if the terms "harmonic tunings" and "harmonics-based scale"
could be clarified. I'm not familiar with these. Does this use of the
word harmonics have to do with harmony or with the harmonics of the
overtone series?
Steve
H Gilmer
: Whereas people who were trained 1st in European classical
: music always bring with them the opinion that every other kind of music
: is just for goofing off.
Always, huh? Even those that don't even like classical any more, I
bet. Must be nice being omniscient. Do you have any idea how many
people in trad, jazz, and other forms of music got their start in
classical music?
: >What are *your* credentials?
: I listen a lot.
Oh, but who says you know how to listen? You've declared everyone
else incapable of knowing how to listen.
Hg
ghost
>ghost (j...@deas.harvard.edu) wrote:
>
>: Whereas people who were trained 1st in European classical
>: music always bring with them the opinion that every other kind of music
>: is just for goofing off.
>Always, huh? Even those that don't even like classical any more, I
>bet. Must be nice being omniscient.
Yeah, it sure is. Those that chose to be trained in something as
inherently unmusical as the European classical system chose it because
they wanted to join a very large group of like-minded snobs.
Music usually has very little to do with it. Which is just as well,
because most of them can't carry a tune in a bucket, with or without
an instrument, unless they've got a page full of dots & some baton-waiving
creature in front of them.
And if *you* "didn't even like classical any more", I doubt you would
be defending it so vehemently.
ghost
>ghost (j...@deas.harvard.edu) wrote:
>: >What are *your* credentials?
>: I listen a lot.
>Oh, but who says you know how to listen? You've declared everyone
>else incapable of knowing how to listen.
No, I haven't; not **everyone**; just people who've allowed themselves
to be trained to hear something unmusical as music, & who love to deride
music wherever they find it, & to promote their nonsense instead.
ghost
>ghost wrote:
With the harmonics of the overtone series.
From the sense of your question you probably know this, but to explain
for those who don't:
An upper harmonic of a given note will form a ratio with the "floor" note
of the octave in which it appears, that "floor" note being a power-of-two
of the original given note.
(The "powers-of-two deal is that you
get octaves of the original note at
2 times the note = note x 2 to the 1st power
4 times the note = note x 2 to the 2nd power
8 times the note = note x 2 to the 3rd power, etc.
This defines octaves, but only accounts for harmonics that are
powers-of-two. There are as many harmonics as there are integers,
so obviously you have a lot more numbers to work with then just the ones
that form octaves.)
If you use that ratio against the orginal given note you will find a note
that puts that relationship formed by the upper harmonic with its
"floor" note back into the 1st octave.
All the traditional music I'm familiar with gets its scale degrees
by using these reflected-back-into-the-home-octave harmonics.
There are an infinite number of possible scale-values to choose from.
Just about every group on earth recognizes what Western European trad
calls octaves, 5ths & 4ths. Its the other values that different traditions
differ about, as well as how you should group the values you do choose
together in pieces.
The introduction to the Roche collection of Irish tunes says
that trad Irish music does not use the irrational-number note-ratios
of the "equal"-tempered European classical scale. Any listening
to the oldest recorded Irish trad music will convince anyone with
decent ears of that fact. But all the tutorials for Irish music
appearing all over the internet are written by European classical
musicians, who are the last people on earth who should be claiming to
teach Irish (or any other) form of traditional music.
Jeri Corlew
>Brad Hurley (bhu...@sover.net) wrote:
>
>: I think for an American
>: to slavishly copy a regional style would be like singing a song with a
>: fake Irish accent.
>
>I have absolutely nothing of substance to add. I just really, really
>liked that bit.
So anyway, here's my question. When does it become alright to use an accent you
don't normally speak with?
I get the feeling that if you speak English and sing a song in English, it isn't
kosher to use a fake Irish accent, even if the song is Irish. What about Scots,
which I've heard called a language in its own right, but has lot of English
words? And does a non-Scottish person sound stupider doing a bad Scots accent
than singing the Scots words without attempting a Scots accent. And if you sing
a song in Venusian, do you sing with your native accent, or do you try to
reproduce a Venusian accent?
--
Jeri
Hillary: "So Chelsea, are you having sex with this new boy you're dating?"
Chelsea: "Uh...not according to dad!"
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ghost
>So anyway, here's my question.
>When does it become alright to use an accent
>you don't normally speak with?
Never.
One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
are living in an area &/or are absolutely steeped in a regional culture
(& only talk, eat, breath etc with people who have a particular accent even
if they're *not* living in the region) pick up the accent. That's OK.
Even if its not your original accent. As long as you're consistent.
If you speak it, even though you weren't raised to speak it, it doesn't
sound weird when you sing in it, too. It would sound weird if you
*didn't*.
>I get the feeling that if you speak English and sing a song in English,
>it isn't kosher to use a fake Irish accent, even if the song is Irish.
>What about Scots, which I've heard called a language in its own right,
>but has lot of English words? And does a non-Scottish person
>sound stupider doing a bad Scots accent than singing the Scots words
>without attempting a Scots accent.
For songs mostly in English but with a few words in Broad-Scots I would
translate the Broad-Scots words into English. Some of them translate
really well; jaecket = jacket, for instance. Some don't translate so
easily. And sometimes by translating into English you lose the rhyme.
Sometimes just by not doing the accent (the words are already in English)
you lose the rhyme. That's life. You can either re-rhyme it or live
with it.
And since the cadences are usually the same in Broad-Scots as in English
(they're both Germanic languages), if the whole song is in Broad-Scots
I'd just translate the whole song.
All I know is I wince terrifically whenever I hear fake accents on
anything but joke songs.
H Gilmer
: >ghost (j...@deas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Yeah, it sure is. Those that chose to be trained in something as
: inherently unmusical as the European classical system chose it because
: they wanted to join a very large group of like-minded snobs.
Oh, like Kevin Burke?
: And if *you* "didn't even like classical any more", I doubt you would
: be defending it so vehemently.
Who's defending classical music? I'm arguing against your irrationality.
There are some truly amazing fiddlers out there playing all sorts of
music who happened to have started out in classical music. Probably
in elementary school orchestra or some other group of like-minded
snobs.
Oh, wait, now you'll claim that their parents must have liked
classical music and therefore the children are irrevocably tainted.
Can you swear that no truly accomplished traditional Irish musician's
parents ever threw a classical record on the phonograph?
Hg
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
that doesn't scan or rhyme unless you imitate the accent of the writer.
In some cases the accent may be unknown, but by trying on a few you
sometimes find something that works better than modern english.
Applied to song, there are some things that aren't gonna work in my
Bronx accent. It's a good thing I don't sing.
Pete
Jeri Corlew wrote:
>
> On 8 Dec 1998 12:43:09 GMT, gil...@uts.cc.utexas.edu (H Gilmer) wrote:
>
> >Brad Hurley (bhu...@sover.net) wrote:
> >
> >: I think for an American
> >: to slavishly copy a regional style would be like singing a song with a
> >: fake Irish accent.
> >
> >I have absolutely nothing of substance to add. I just really, really
> >liked that bit.
>
> So anyway, here's my question. When does it become alright to use an accent you
> don't normally speak with?
>
> I get the feeling that if you speak English and sing a song in English, it isn't
> kosher to use a fake Irish accent, even if the song is Irish. What about Scots,
> which I've heard called a language in its own right, but has lot of English
> words? And does a non-Scottish person sound stupider doing a bad Scots accent
ghost
>Oh, wait, now you'll claim that their parents must have liked
>classical music and therefore the children are irrevocably tainted.
>Can you swear that no truly accomplished traditional Irish musician's
>parents ever threw a classical record on the phonograph?
Nope; I'll restate what I said yesterday, since you seem incapable of
understanding it:
If you come from a culture that gives different forms of music equal weight
on their "approval scale", then you can pick & choose what forms you like.
If you come from a culture that thinks one form is superior to all other
forms just because it says it is & it has a lot of snobs backing the claim
up, you are irrevocably tainted.
Most of the Irish musicians I've heard interviewed came either from
traditional-muisc-oriented families or families that gave European classical
music & Irish traditional music equal weight on their "approval scale".
Obviously, the interviewees I tuned in to are people who have made a mark
in traditional music; otherwise they wouldn't have been interviewed on
the programs I heard them interviewed on. But even those who *loved*
European classical music didn't say they thought it was intrinsically
better than the traditional music they were playing.
Glenn S. Sunshine
ghost wrote:
> If you come from a culture that gives different forms of music equal weight
> on their "approval scale", then you can pick & choose what forms you like.
>
> If you come from a culture that thinks one form is superior to all other
> forms just because it says it is & it has a lot of snobs backing the claim
> up, you are irrevocably tainted.
>
> Most of the Irish musicians I've heard interviewed came either from
> traditional-muisc-oriented families or families that gave European classical
> music & Irish traditional music equal weight on their "approval scale". ...
> But even those who *loved*
> European classical music didn't say they thought it was intrinsically
> better than the traditional music they were playing.
Bad news: I know a significant number of classical players -- including some who teach in
conservatories -- who don't think classical music is intrinsically superior to other kinds of
music. I know a number of excellent classical players who are very interested in trad Irish
music even when they don't play it themselves, and who can tell the difference in quality
between Matt Malloy and James Galway doing Irish trad in a flash. (In case you're wondering, I
played the CDs for them myself in my living room, and there was no question about their
reaction: Malloy was "real," and they'd long before dismissed Galway.) I also know of at least
one Irish trad musician, no, music snob, who refuses to give an "equal weight on the 'approval
scale'" to anything she personally doesn't like or doesn't have the wit to appreciate. So it
goes both ways.
GSS
Michael Wodzak
> >When does it become alright to use an accent
> >you don't normally speak with?
>
Country and Western singers do it all the time. It's almost de rigueur
to use a "Nashville" accent.
>
> One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
> are living in an area <snip> pick up the accent.
I've been living in Missouri for 13 years now (in fact I've lived in
Columbia longer than in any other town) and nobody has mistaken me for
anything other than an expat Brit yet. People's accents are pretty
maleable until the mid-to-late-teens. However, the accent you have at
the end of that period is pretty much the accent that stays with you for
life.
H Gilmer
: ghost wrote:
: > One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
: > are living in an area <snip> pick up the accent.
: <snip> People's accents are pretty
: maleable until the mid-to-late-teens. However, the accent you have at
: the end of that period is pretty much the accent that stays with you for
: life.
Some accents are more pickuppable than others, and some people are
more susceptible than others. I can't fake an accent on purpose to
save my life, but often catch myself mimicking the accent of the
person I'm talking to. One of the accents I seem to be particularly
susceptible to is Irish. Not exactly the accent, but the prosody.
But I still can't fake it on purpose, and wouldn't want to try.
On the other hand, back to Michael's comment about the standard
"Nashville" accent (that I so cruelly snipped), I've found myself
singing with some kind of accent along those lines. For some reason
it particularly creeps in with "The Scotsman". Go figure.
Hg
Michael Wodzak
>
> Michael Wodzak (wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu) wrote:
> : ghost wrote:
>
> : > One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
> : > are living in an area <snip> pick up the accent.
>
> : <snip> People's accents are pretty
> : maleable until the mid-to-late-teens. However, the accent you have at
> : the end of that period is pretty much the accent that stays with you for
> : life.
>
> Some accents are more pickuppable than others, and some people are
> more susceptible than others. I can't fake an accent on purpose to
> save my life, but often catch myself mimicking the accent of the
> person I'm talking to. One of the accents I seem to be particularly
> susceptible to is Irish. Not exactly the accent, but the prosody.
> But I still can't fake it on purpose, and wouldn't want to try.
I absolutely agee with this. When I was at college in the late 70's, I
attended what had, at one time been a Catholic seminary. It was still
quite generously populated with Irish priests, and there were masses at
least daily. Many of the students were also Irish and I got quite a few
glares during mass until I realised that I had been subconsciously
assuming the priest's brogue in my responses. However, as soon as I am
out of such an environment, my accent tends to revert to that of my late
adolescence which is the point was (rather cack-handedly) trying to
make. I wasn't trying to disagree with Joan's point, merely to
supplement it.
>
> On the other hand, back to Michael's comment about the standard
> "Nashville" accent (that I so cruelly snipped), I've found myself
> singing with some kind of accent along those lines. For some reason
> it particularly creeps in with "The Scotsman". Go figure.
I'm terribly ashamed to admit that I've forgotten his name (Max
Boyce???), but there's a Welsh singer who does a wonderful rendition of
English rugby supporters trying to sing Welsh traditional songs -- "And
'Arry's got an 'orse."
ArrahCee
>"Nashville" accent (that I so cruelly snipped), I've found myself
>singing with some kind of accent along those lines.
Hey, I didn't sense that at all on the song about the
squashed cat... Just sounded like yourself!
: )
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
Nic Caciappo
> > >So anyway, here's my question.
> > >When does it become alright to use an accent
> > >you don't normally speak with?
Does anyone know if the singer from Gaelic Storm is American or Irish?
Sounds fake to me.
Nic
ghost
>ghost wrote:
>>
>> are living in an area <snip> pick up the accent.
Nope, that's not what I wrote.
What I wrote was:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------
One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
are living in an area &/or are absolutely steeped in a regional culture
(& only talk, eat, breath etc with people who have a particular accent even
if they're *not* living in the region) pick up the accent. That's OK.
Even if its not your original accent. As long as you're consistent.
If you speak it, even though you weren't raised to speak it, it doesn't
sound weird when you sing in it, too. It would sound weird if you
*didn't*.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------=-
How come you seem to feel you have to rewrite what I wrote, then answer
*your* version, which has had the meaning changed?
The "&/or are absolutely steeped in a regional culture"
is the really important part of this piece.
>I've been living in Missouri for 13 years now (in fact I've lived in
>Columbia longer than in any other town) and nobody has mistaken me for
>anything other than an expat Brit yet. People's accents are pretty
>maleable until the mid-to-late-teens. However, the accent you have at
>the end of that period is pretty much the accent that stays with you for
>life.
Well, I'd say you're not steeped in the regional culture, even though
you've lived in the area for 13 years.
If you *were* steeped in the regional culture, even if you weren't living
in the area, chances are really good you'd have picked up *some*
of the regional accent.
Celtic music reference here is how well the duet between
Karan Casey & Iris DeMent on the "Words That Remain" Solas album works.
Now, DeMent grew up in California. But her parents came from the
Ozarks. And she grew up in a community populated by people all from the
same part of the Ozarks, who all retained their accents even though
they were in California. This is a good example of someone being steeped
in a regional culture even though they don't live in the region.
How well that duet works is a great example of how well some
very-closely-related forms of phrasing, vocal production & ornamentation
work together. And they're very-closely-related even though there's an ocean,
a continent & several hundred years seperating the regions
that generated the ornamentation & phrasing & voices.
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
>
[snip]
>
> Nope; I'll restate what I said yesterday, since you seem incapable of
> understanding it:
>
> on their "approval scale", then you can pick & choose what forms you like.
>
> If you come from a culture that thinks one form is superior to all other
> forms just because it says it is & it has a lot of snobs backing the claim
> up, you are irrevocably tainted.
>
Pete
ghost
>ghost wrote:
>>
>> If you come from a culture that gives different forms of music equal weight
>> on their "approval scale", then you can pick & choose what forms you like.
>> If you come from a culture that thinks one form is superior to all other
>> forms just because it says it is & it has a lot of snobs backing the claim
>> up, you are irrevocably tainted.
>Ah... So that explains your hatered for classical music!
Gosh, no, I've explained it all in great detail, & to you even,
but since you want to read it again:
European Classical musicians play & sing out of any sense of tune
(they use a scale that doesn't relate very well to the integral-ratio
scale-degrees that forms of traditional music use)
They meander tunelessly between keys; although pieces of music that do
this have only been written for the past couple centuries, they ascribe
to the notion that music that doesn't meander tunelessly is
"not real music"
They have no knowledge of or feeling for the intervals between the
notes on the scale they *are* using; they view notes as independent points
in space that don't relate to anything else
They can't improvise; most of them can't even play a tune at all without
looking at those notes on paper
They develop really boring ways to put out (begin, play, & end) notes,
then preach "this is the only right way"
They can play in a boring tick-tock timing, but without severe measures,
like baton-wavers, actually have no sense of rhythm at all; polyrhythms are
completely impossible for them
They re-engineer instruments to damp down any overtones produced that
sound bright to them; these overtones are considered "not couth"
When they sing, they sound like they've got mouths full of rotten fruit
they're trying to sing around; some of them also vibrate their voices
in huge wobbles
They get people to pay large sums of money to support this awful noise
under the guise that culture is being promoted
I can think of more if you want
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
That is what YOU say,
I play fiddle. The fiddle is tuned in fifths.
The harmonics it generates are pure. When a fiddler plays a true note,
the fiddle rings with the harmonics of the open strings. It is one of
the pleasures of fiddling. It keeps you on course. Trombonists have to
rely on their ear as do singers, but fiddle players get feedback from
their fiddles.
Equal temperment (which is what you seem to refer to as "their approved
scale") is a compromise to allow keyboard and fretted instruments to
change key.
String players, wind players and vocalists can all reach a consensus on
what the real pitch is, because they can all control their instruments.
Keyboardists and fretted instrument players have little or no control.
(Clavichord players have a degree of control and really good guitarists
seem to be able to bend notes to order)
A lot of great classical music has been written for _string quartet_,
and string players DO NOT PLAY EQUALLY TEMPERED NOTES except if they are
playing a quintet with a piano. NOTE: A hell of a lot of fiddlers who
play celtic music are accompanied by pianos and they don't sound out of
tune.
Personally, I think you are grinding a very dull axe and aren't really
interested or listening to the MUSIC.
Most of equal temperment is pretty close to true harmonic pitches. Only
the thirds and sixths are off by a significant amount. ET allows you to
change keys very conveniently. If you REALLY want to hear music that
moves from key to key with perfect clarity and perfect integer
relationships then listen to the music of Harry Partch. (But don't
listen to his singing)
That's ALL. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
Pete
H Gilmer
: European Classical musicians play & sing out of any sense of tune
: (they use a scale that doesn't relate very well to the integral-ratio
: scale-degrees that forms of traditional music use)
Shall we line up and shoot every trad musician who sits down at a
piano? (Whoops, sorry, wrong thread.) What about accordions? They
gots all the notes set in advance. So either they're tempered, so
their owners should be drawn and quartered, or they're tuned to a
particular key but people play all kinds of keys on them anyway and
therefore should be drawn and quartered as well.
: They meander tunelessly between keys; although pieces of music that do
: this have only been written for the past couple centuries, they ascribe
: to the notion that music that doesn't meander tunelessly is
: "not real music"
Most Irish traditional tunes played today have only been written in
the last couple centuries, so the novelty can't be the problem. Is it
okay to put together a medley of tunes that aren't all in the same
key, or have a B part in a different key from the A part?
: They have no knowledge of or feeling for the intervals between the
: notes on the scale they *are* using; they view notes as independent points
: in space that don't relate to anything else
Not most of the classical players I know. Your evidence for this is
purely anecdotal and quite possibly no better representative of
reality than mine.
: They can't improvise; most of them can't even play a tune at all without
: looking at those notes on paper
There you have a point. But not a universal point. Many can't, many
can.
And there are accomplished world-famous traditional players who prefer
to teach in terms of the way things look on the page (as I discovered
to my great horror).
I also know plenty of non-classically-trained trad players who can't
improvise. Improvisation is more a part of some traditions than
others.
[list of other complaints]
: I can think of more if you want
I'm sure you can. But none of what you say applies to "anyone who has
permitted themselves to be trained" in classical music, or for that
matter anyone who has ever enjoyed a piece of classical music. Or
early music, which also seems to be on your shit list.
Every form of music has its snobs. Baroque players sneer at classical
players. Trad musicians sneer at folk musicians.
You cannot assume that EVERY person whose original musical training
was in classical music can never adapt to other forms. There is a
world of difference between baroque music and modern "classical"
music. There is a world of difference between Irish music and
klezmer. People can learn more than one musical style, just as they
can learn more than one language. (Come to think of it, I think those
abilities are related. It has to do with putting yourself in a
different mindset and understanding that there truly is another way
to do things & view things.)
Some people are dense, and don't listen, and don't realize they ain't
doing it right. Some people are still in the process of learning.
Since most people who didn't start out in traditional music happen to
have come from classical music, most of the people that you'll come
across "doing it wrong" are gonna be classical players. Not all of
'em. It's a statistical matter, not a character matter. What about
old-timey or Cajun players that try to play Irish music and it comes
out sounding like old-time or Cajun? Irish players who try to play
old-time and it comes out sounding like Irish? Or a talented Latin
American drummer who picks up a bodhran & plays it too aggressively?
They're just as wrong as the classical player who fails to get the
right style & sense to the music. They just don't set off any of your
hot buttons.
Lay off the absolutes.
Hg
H Gilmer
: >"Nashville" accent (that I so cruelly snipped), I've found myself
: >singing with some kind of accent along those lines.
: Hey, I didn't sense that at all on the song about the
: squashed cat... Just sounded like yourself!
Heh. Yeah, on that one I'm just my damyankee self. It's just a trace
here and there on other songs, anyway.
Say, a few months ago someone was saying on this group that *anyone*
can learn how to sing. Anyone have hints for working past extremely
variable voice quality? I might someday have to move past novelty
songs and harmony and would rather not suck.
Hg
Fixer (aka Robert Smith)
Patrick Murphy, from Co Cork, Ireland. The second singer
is Steve Wehmeyer, from Olean, NY, USA. The third is
Steve Twigger from Coventry, England.
--
Hollywood Stock Exchange
http://www.hsx.com
fix.er \'fik-s*r\ n : one that fixes : as : one that intervenes to
enable a
person to circumvent the law or obtain a political favor : one that
adjusts
matters or disputes by negotiation
Ptbrady
Since I am from New York/New Jersey, and since this concert was in New Jersey,
and since her speech was accent-free to my ears, I think it safe to say she
comes from this area.
But not in the songs. She put on a fake Scots-Brit-Irish-God_Knows_What
accent, which I found most distracting (as I did Julia Roberts in the film
about Michael Collins).
I'm afraid that I'm a purist when it comes to ballads. The most important
thing is to get across the WORDS, in a style that conveys the depth of their
meaning. Fake accents, loud accompaniment (or accompaniment with new age
chords) are all distractions.
Pete Brady
Michael Wodzak
>
> In article <366EAF...@lie.math.missouri.edu> Michael Wodzak <wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> writes:
>
> >ghost wrote:
> >>
>
> >> are living in an area <snip> pick up the accent.
>
> Nope, that's not what I wrote.
> What I wrote was:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
> are living in an area &/or are absolutely steeped in a regional culture
> (& only talk, eat, breath etc with people who have a particular accent even
> if they're *not* living in the region) pick up the accent. That's OK.
> Even if its not your original accent. As long as you're consistent.
> If you speak it, even though you weren't raised to speak it, it doesn't
> sound weird when you sing in it, too. It would sound weird if you
> *didn't*.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=-
>
> How come you seem to feel you have to rewrite what I wrote, then answer
> *your* version, which has had the meaning changed?
>
> The "&/or are absolutely steeped in a regional culture"
>
> is the really important part of this piece.
>
I'm sorry Joan, but you've completely lost me. You're going to have to
explain how I've misquoted you. I certainly don't think I have.
Perhaps we have different understandings of what "&/or" means. In any
case, as I said in a later posting, I wasn't trying to contradict what
you had said, only to supplement it.
In an effort to clear the air (absolutely not an effort to demonstrate
that I'm right and you're wrong) let me try to explain how I read your
posting:
Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
"&/or" means that the sentence you have written holds truth whether "&"
is used, or wheth "or" is used. This being the case, I responded to
this statement
_________
One thing I find that's pretty interesting is that people who
are living in an area _or_ are absolutely steeped in a regional culture
(& only talk, eat, breath etc with people who have a particular accent
even
if they're *not* living in the region) pick up the accent.
_________
So you have said that people who live in a certain area or people who
are steeped in the culture (etc) of a certain area pick up the accent.
Once again, I am not trying to misquote, or misunderstand you, but it
certainly seems to me like this means you believe that if you are living
in a certain area, you pick up the accent. This is not a misquote (in
fact in my first posting all I deleted was the "&" part of your
statement -- which since you used "&/or" I was at liberty to do)
This is what I was responding to in all good faith. It is, moreover, a
position I accept -- but with qualifications -- and it was that point I
was trying to get across.
ghost
>Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
>qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
Firstly, let me point out that as an English speaker, I wasn't using
a Boolean &/or. If I wanted to post in programming languages or
math, I would.
One of the 1st things I've always been taught in math & programming
classes is that "the way this construct works is not the way you're
used to having it work in English". Don't you cover that in your courses?
If you don't, you're going to have a lot of confused students.
ghost
A double negative in English
(such as "you ain't seen nothing yet") also will confuse people who
only speak Boolean while being transparently clear to speakers of English.
Just to clarify for the Boolean-speakers out there:
What I meant was
"People who live in a region they didn't come from & are steeped in the
culture of the region tend to pick up the accents of the region.
Also, people who are steeped in the culture of a region they didn't come
from to the point that they talk exclusively with people from that region
tend to pick up the accents of the region even if they're *not* living
in that region.
OK?
Michael Wodzak
>
> In article <366FF8...@lie.math.missouri.edu> Michael Wodzak <wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> writes:
>
> >Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
> >qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
>
> Firstly, let me point out that as an English speaker, I wasn't using
> a Boolean &/or.
>
Then which "&/or" were you using???? I suspect you don't know what
"Boolean" means.
> One of the 1st things I've always been taught in math & programming
> classes is that "the way this construct works is not the way you're
> used to having it work in English". Don't you cover that in your courses?
> If you don't, you're going to have a lot of confused students.
Then you have been mistaught. Very often the construct in the math
class is exactly the same as in regular English. Sometimes it is a
special case.
In any case, I explain such terms and constructs and their relation to
standard English on a case by case basis.
I ask again, which &/or were you using? Explain what you meant by the
phrase and why my understanding was incorrect.
ghost
>ghost wrote:
>>
>> In article <366FF8...@lie.math.missouri.edu> Michael Wodzak <wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> writes:
>>
>> >Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
>> >qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
>> Firstly, let me point out that as an English speaker, I wasn't using
>> a Boolean &/or.
>Then which "&/or" were you using????
The English-language "&/or". See my last post.
>I suspect you don't know what
>"Boolean" means.
Well, I do have a post-grad software-engineering certificate,
as well as having taken several undergraduate-level math courses
(& passed them). I'll have to get the word to all the professors that
you say I was mistaught (that the logic of mathematics is not always
equivalent to the logic of English language constructs).
Why would you "suspect" I don't know what "Boolean" means?
This *is* supposed to be a discussion of Celtic music, though,
not of your abilities as a math professor.
Michael Wodzak
>
> In article <74oun4$n4b$1...@canon.deas.harvard.edu> j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) writes:
>
>
> >>Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
> >>qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
>
> >Firstly, let me point out that as an English speaker, I wasn't using
> >math, I would.
>
> >classes is that "the way this construct works is not the way you're
> >used to having it work in English". Don't you cover that in your courses?
> >If you don't, you're going to have a lot of confused students.
>
> (such as "you ain't seen nothing yet") also will confuse people who
> only speak Boolean
Yeah. Right. (A double positive by the way ;o} ). Do you know any such
critters??
while being transparently clear to speakers of English.
>
> Just to clarify for the Boolean-speakers out there:
>
> What I meant was
>
> "People who live in a region they didn't come from & are steeped in the
> culture of the region tend to pick up the accents of the region.
>
> Also, people who are steeped in the culture of a region they didn't come
> from to the point that they talk exclusively with people from that region
> tend to pick up the accents of the region even if they're *not* living
> in that region.
>
> OK?
Then you should not have used "or" at all if you did not expect anyone
to believe that you meant it. I certainly am not going to stand accused
of misquoting you when I did absolutely no such thing.
ghost
>Say, a few months ago someone was saying on this group that *anyone*
>can learn how to sing. Anyone have hints for working past extremely
>variable voice quality? I might someday have to move past novelty
>songs and harmony and would rather not suck.
Well, 1st of all, don't go to an European classical voice teacher
unless you want to sound like you've got a mouth full of rotten fruit
(& want people in trad circles to laugh at your singing).
Try to find out what you're "doing right", that is, what are some of
the factors that govern your voice quality when you think its good.
The range you're singing in is likely to be the biggest factor.
Try to center yourself around the range of your speaking voice, at
least at 1st. *Don't* let people move you into a range where you
have to strain because they only know how to play their instrument
in one particular key, or *they* like to sing in that particular range
themselves.
Center in on what you're doing with your throat & face muscles
that creates a particular voice quality that you like.
wod...@my-dejanews.com
In article <74p2sl$okd$1...@canon.deas.harvard.edu>,
j...@deas.harvard.edu ( ghost ) wrote:
> In article <367007...@lie.math.missouri.edu> Michael Wodzak
<wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> writes:
>
> >ghost wrote:
> >>
>
> >> In article <366FF8...@lie.math.missouri.edu> Michael Wodzak
<wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> writes:
> >>
>
> >> >Firstly, let me point out that, being a Math prof I am absolutely
> >> >qualified to explain what the Boolean "&/or" means.
>
> >> Firstly, let me point out that as an English speaker, I wasn't using
> >> a Boolean &/or.
>
> >Then which "&/or" were you using????
>
> The English-language "&/or". See my last post.
What does that mean?? See mine
>
> >I suspect you don't know what
> >"Boolean" means.
>
> Well, I do have a post-grad software-engineering certificate,
> as well as having taken several undergraduate-level math courses
> (& passed them). I'll have to get the word to all the professors that
> you say I was mistaught (that the logic of mathematics is not always
> equivalent to the logic of English language constructs).
Your parenthetical statement is one I absolutely agree with, however,
that is not what you said. What you said, and I quote, is:
--------
One of the first things that I've always been taught in math and
programming classes is that "the way this construct works is not the
way you're used to having it work in English".
-------
Saying that one thing is not always the same as another is not the same
as saying that the two things are always different.
Such simple logical
mistakes as confusing a statement with its inverse are the kind of thing
which led me to suspect that you are unsure as to what "Boolean" means.
Moreover, since you seem to think that by using the term "Boolean" I was
implying that there is a difference between what "&/or" means in
binary logic and its meaning in "the English language" when in fact
there is not. I was merely using the term "Boolean" adjectivally, and
there is more evidence as to where my suspicions are grounded. You may
well have a "post-grad software engineering certificate". Your grasp of
binary logic, on the other hand, is not that hot.
>
> Why would you "suspect" I don't know what "Boolean" means?
I think I've answered that question
>
> This *is* supposed to be a discussion of Celtic music, though,
> not of your abilities as a math professor.
>
The only reason my profession came into this discussion was that you
accused me of misquoting you. I was trying, in good faith to show how
I had understood what you had written, and why it was reasonable of me to
do so. If anyone, in any format, accuses me of any kind of
dishonesty, I will defend myself against those accusations. Moreover,
a look back through this thread will verify that the first mention, of
any kind, of my abilities to do my job were made by you, and once again,
I am responding in my own defense.
I have repeated, throughout this thread, that my first posting was not
meant to contradict what you said, but to supplement it. I have
endevoured to be as conciliatory as possible. On the other hand, as is
usual, you are doing your best to make the discussion as rancorous as is
possible. I really should not be suprised.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ghost
>In fact the regional styles were never quite as distinct as some
>folklorists led us to believe.
You'd like to believe that, but you show no documentation for it.
The deeper anyone gets into studying a regional style in any kind
of traditional music the more distinctive the differing aspects appear
to them. If you come from outside a tradition the music, even if you
*like* it, sounds at 1st like pretty much a blend of obvious characteristics
that all of it shares to a greater or lesser extent & which differentiates
it from some other traditional music. After you get more familiar with
the music different features come out of the blend.
>Ireland is not a big country, and while
>it's true that some musicians stayed close to home it's also true that
>many of them traveled or were exposed to traveling musicians. Johnny
>Doran, the great piper who traveled all over Ireland, influenced pipers
>all over the country. Willie Clancy was from Clare, but was influenced by
>Doran, and Willie himself traveled widely and picked up influences from
>other players. The late great Clare fiddler Patrick Kelly was strongly
>influenced by a Kerry fiddler who visited his house often when he was
>young.
There are far more examples of people who learned from their neighbors
& close relatives than there are of people who learned from visitors
from another region. Of course both forms of learning occur.
And of course the intervention of media heroes has even more of an impact
than have individual travellers, & will continue to have that in the future.
>Even within the regional styles there are enormous variations based on
>individual musicians' own preferences and influences.
Right, but there are also things being called regions that haven't been
defined very well; it makes no sense to assume that political boundaries
(such as "county X") necessarily define style boundaries.
And if you find two families living side by side for generations
but playing distinctly different styles, I'd say you have more of a
family than a regional style going there.
I'd say rather than argue for regional vs family styles, people should
recognize that both occur (I think family styles are usually a subset
of regional styles) & also recognize that advising new players to develop
a broad "mix-&-match" approach will do to Irish music what has happened
to the blues; you get a lot of technical wizards, mostly coming from
outside the tradition, who play a mish-mash of styles & without much feeling.
Its still recognizable "the blues" from a technical standpoint, but it
doesn't have much else to recommend it.
Alan Hardie
>
> I'm afraid that I'm a purist when it comes to ballads. The most important
> thing is to get across the WORDS, in a style that conveys the depth of their
> meaning. Fake accents, loud accompaniment (or accompaniment with new age
> chords) are all distractions.
How do you feel about Americans singing Scottish ballads? Should they be
sung in the old Scots language or standard (American) English? Some of
them "lose" something when sung in English yet they may be more popular
if they were more widely understood.
--
---------------------------------------------------
Alan Hardie
remove XSPAM from email address to reply
ghost
>Such simple logical
>mistakes as confusing a statement with its inverse are the kind of thing
>which led me to suspect that you are unsure as to what "Boolean" means.
>Moreover, since you seem to think that by using the term "Boolean" I was
>implying that there is a difference between what "&/or" means in
>binary logic and its meaning in "the English language" when in fact
>there is not. I was merely using the term "Boolean" adjectivally, and
>there is more evidence as to where my suspicions are grounded. You may
>well have a "post-grad software engineering certificate". Your grasp of
>binary logic, on the other hand, is not that hot.
It kind of hard to get a computer program to work at all if your grasp
of binary logic in a programming situation is "not that hot"
(unless you're programming in Cobol, which has one enormous mistake
in logic programmed in to the way "if" loops run. They wind up making
either one extra or one less run than correctly applied logic
would make them run. Or something like that. Been long time.
Since I looked at Cobol.). My programs ran to specifications given,
so I like to think I was getting my binary logic statements right.
Instructors also did check the code, not just the output.
On the other hand, I'm not writing programming statements here.
In the common usage of "&/or" in English, you discard the 1st part
of the clause when you go into discerning the meaning of the "or" part.
So:
Its
"if thing 'a' is true & thing 'b' is true then 'thing c' is true,
otherwise lets just look at how thing 'b' makes thing 'c' true".
English-speakers really shouldn't be using "or" there, we should be using
"otherwise". But we usually use "or". Sorry you Boolean-speakers
get confused.
I agree It's not mathematically logical, but its how common usage of English
in the USA works. Please get me samples from literature (not programming
documents) in which the logic of the English sentences in such cases
goes the way you would interpret it according to Boolean logic.
>I have repeated, throughout this thread, that my first posting was not
>meant to contradict what you said, but to supplement it. I have
>endevoured to be as conciliatory as possible.
Nah, it looked like you were saying
"I have lived in Columbia Missouri for 13 years & haven't lost my British
accent, so you're wrong".
I took umbrage at that because I never said that *you* should have
lost your accent. I had said that if a person were living in a region
& had become deeply steeped in the culture of the region, especially
as it applied to speech, they could be expected to pick up the local accent.
Or XXXXXXX
***Otherwise*** (is that better?) even if a person were deeply steeped in
the culture of a region, no matter where they lived, they might pick up
the region's accent.
Oh yeah:
I've been using "&" for "and" for a lot longer than I've been
familiar with programming usage, so I'm not going to stop using the
symbol "&" even though it confused you into thinking you were reading
a programming statement.
ghost
>I play fiddle. The fiddle is tuned in fifths.
I'm glad you can recognize a 5th; you're ahead of most of the game
of classical players.
Can you tune your fiddle without consulting a tuning-device?
>The harmonics it generates are pure. When a fiddler plays a true note,
>the fiddle rings with the harmonics of the open strings. It is one of
>the pleasures of fiddling. It keeps you on course. Trombonists have to
>rely on their ear as do singers, but fiddle players get feedback from
>their fiddles.
>A lot of great classical music has been written for _string quartet_,
>and string players DO NOT PLAY EQUALLY TEMPERED NOTES except if they are
>playing a quintet with a piano.
Depends on how tone-deaf the string players are or aren't.
I've heard both ways.
>Most of equal temperment is pretty close to true harmonic pitches. Only
>the thirds and sixths are off by a significant amount.
The 3rds are off by a mile, & the 6ths aren't too much better. 7ths
don't do all that well either, I don't think. Neither do 2nds.
And when you try to do in 12-TET modal-scale degrees that aren't the same
as major-scale degrees, forget it.
>ET allows you to
>change keys very conveniently.
If you like to sound bad.
>If you REALLY want to hear music that
>moves from key to key with perfect clarity and perfect integer
>relationships then listen to the music of Harry Partch. (But don't
>listen to his singing)
If I really want to hear music that "moves from key to key with perfect
clarity & perfect integer relationships", all I've got to do is listen
to a good modern pop singer sing songs with some key-changes in them.
Even when their instruments can't keep up, the singers usually can.
Michael Wodzak
>
> In the common usage of "&/or" in English, you discard the 1st part
> of the clause when you go into discerning the meaning of the "or" part.
>
> So:
>
> Its
>
> "if thing 'a' is true & thing 'b' is true then 'thing c' is true,
> otherwise lets just look at how thing 'b' makes thing 'c' true".
> English-speakers really shouldn't be using "or" there, we should be using
> "otherwise". But we usually use "or".
>
That is, quite simply, untrue. I'll assume you are mistaken, because I
hate to accuse anyone of lying.
> >I have repeated, throughout this thread, that my first posting was not
> >meant to contradict what you said, but to supplement it. I have
> >endevoured to be as conciliatory as possible.
>
> Nah, it looked like you were saying
>
> "I have lived in Columbia Missouri for 13 years & haven't lost my British
> accent, so you're wrong".
>
> I took umbrage at that because I never said that *you* should have
> lost your accent.
I never thought you said I should do anything. Are you sure you didn't
take umbrage because you enjoy an argument?
I had said that if a person were living in a region
> & had become deeply steeped in the culture of the region, especially
> as it applied to speech, they could be expected to pick up the local accent.
>
> Or XXXXXXX
>
> ***Otherwise*** (is that better?) even if a person were deeply steeped in
> the culture of a region, no matter where they lived, they might pick up
> the region's accent.
>
> Oh yeah:
I understand, now, that that's what you meant, and I agree with you up
to a point. However, as I tried to point out earlier, if these changes
don't happen some time in late adolescence, they are pretty impermanent.
>
> I've been using "&" for "and" for a lot longer than I've been
> familiar with programming usage, so I'm not going to stop using the
> symbol "&" even though it confused you into thinking you were reading
> a programming statement.
The "&" symbol confused noone. Why should it? It's been around a lot
longer than computer programming, certainly it was used in medieval
manuscripts, and, I seem to recall it was invented in Roman times. I
never thought you were writing a programming statement; I merely
misunderstood what you meant because you misused "and/or".
Michael Wodzak
> of classical players.
> Can you tune your fiddle without consulting a tuning-device?
>
So that's what all the little boxes with the flashy lights on them are
what I've been seeing on the concert stage. I'd always thought the
violin section had brought along their Gameboys.
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
>
> In article <366F01...@worldnet.att.net> Pete...@worldnet.att.net writes:
> >
>
> >I play fiddle. The fiddle is tuned in fifths.
>
> of classical players.
> Can you tune your fiddle without consulting a tuning-device?
For the third or fourth time... I am NOT a classical violinist
you are confused and mistaken. (As is so often the case)
Your math is also suspect
[snip]
>
> >A lot of great classical music has been written for _string quartet_,
> >and string players DO NOT PLAY EQUALLY TEMPERED NOTES except if they are
> >playing a quintet with a piano.
>
> Depends on how tone-deaf the string players are or aren't.
> I've heard both ways.
When all else fails, insult the opposing view. I notice that you forgot
to comment on celtic fiddlers playing with ET accompaniment like piano.
>
> >Most of equal temperment is pretty close to true harmonic pitches. Only
> >the thirds and sixths are off by a significant amount.
>
> The 3rds are off by a mile, & the 6ths aren't too much better. 7ths
> don't do all that well either, I don't think. Neither do 2nds.
> And when you try to do in 12-TET modal-scale degrees that aren't the same
> as major-scale degrees, forget it.
The only part of the above that I can agree with is the part where you
say "I don't think". I already said what is off, its nice to know you
can repeat it. If you repeat something often enough you can even learn
it.
>
> >ET allows you to
> >change keys very conveniently.
>
> If you like to sound bad.
Yet another boring insult
>
> >If you REALLY want to hear music that
> >moves from key to key with perfect clarity and perfect integer
> >relationships then listen to the music of Harry Partch. (But don't
> >listen to his singing)
>
> If I really want to hear music that "moves from key to key with perfect
> clarity & perfect integer relationships", all I've got to do is listen
> to a good modern pop singer sing songs with some key-changes in them.
> Even when their instruments can't keep up, the singers usually can.
I don't listen to vocal music if I can avoid it since I am either
reading, writing or playing my fiddle and the words disturb my thoughts.
Tough when I am jamming with people who do mostly country and I don't
know the music. I get to improvise a bit and sit out on the fast stuff.)
However, Partch is not really classical, and he took issue with the past
two hundred years of western music. Said it has been in a rut since Bach
convinced everyone of the merit of equal temperment. I think Partch
agreed that it was a good idea at the time, but time has moved on.
Anyway, his music is logical, often striking, done on very interesting
altered instruments and someone like you, who hates classical music and
equal temperment ought to check out what this guy did.
I don't understand your hostility toward classical music and your
deliberate blind sided attitude the use of pianos and other ET
instruments in folk music.
ONCE AGAIN>>> I am NOT a classical musician.
Pete
ghost
>I notice that you forgot
>to comment on celtic fiddlers playing with ET accompaniment like piano.
I'm not required to comment on your every point, you know, but anyway
I've done that bit at length before.
The only ones I'm familiar with play with a piano-as-percussion
accompaniment. You won't hear any Cape Breton piano players emphasizing
those out-of-tune chords, or making all kinds of woozy tinkling sounds,
or interjecting little "holidays" that have nothing to do with the tune.
They're there to keep the beat.
(I'm not all that fond of how much the particular kind of piano accompaniment
regularizes the fiddler's timing, but its not my decision to make. I prefer
to listen to the famous Cape Breton fiddlers on those rare chances where
they play unaccompanied, but *they* prefer to play with a piano,
& play for dances.)
>ONCE AGAIN>>> I am NOT a classical musician.
Oh gosh, I must have you confused with the Pete Schug who in this very
space a few months ago was oozing on & on about Bach & his very rich mentor
& the mentor's kidney problems, or was it Bach's kidney problems. I forget.
Anyway, you went all rhapsodic, to coin a phrase, about symphonies.
Or *that* Pete Schug did.
Ptbrady
:>How do you feel about Americans singing Scottish ballads? Should they be
>sung in the old Scots language or standard (American) English? Some of
>them "lose" something when sung in English yet they may be more popular
>if they were more widely understood.
------
women and 2 men, all from New Jersey, who sing ballads and songs of Colonial
America. Since we didn't have much of our own folk tradition then, this pretty
much means songs imported from the British Isles (if we stick to the English
language songs, which we pretty much do).
Our web page is
http://members.aol.com/dmajorsing
Since 1984, we have made a great success of singing a few times a year, in
well-chosen places throughout the Northeast. We have recorded 79 of these
ballads on four tapes. We sing in our natural accents, with no attempt at any
accent.
And, we sings songs from Scotland (among others). Our tapes sufficiently
impressed Roger Duce, music librarian of the National Library of Scotland, to
put them in the record collections of that library. Here are examples:
1. Ca the Yowes to the Knowes. We sing an earlier version than that of Robert
Burns, and retain the Scots-language title, after explaining to the audience
that it means "Drive the yewes to the knolls." The verses are standard English.
2. John Hielandman, Robert Burns' verses set to the tune "White Cockade."
Straight, unchanged Burns. We explain what "braw" and "trepane" mean
(unfamiliar to Americans) and then Lois Lyons sings away.
3. Bonnie George Campbell. A powerful song, recorded by Jean Redpath (who I
think is wonderful), again sung by Lois, accentless.
4. Fear a'Bhata. We retain the Scots Gaelic chorus, and sing the verses in
English.
14. Knight & Shepherd's Daughter (Child 110, sometimes called "The Forrester").
We have several fine examples of this sung by Scots, one of which is sung by
Lizzie Higgins (who I believe was Jeannie Robertson's daughter). We use her
version, but again sing it straight.
-----
There are many other examples. I believe that these wonderful songs are best
presented so they are clearly understood. A fake accent is bad for two
reasons: (1) it interferes with the understanding of the words, and (2) it
irritates at least some members of the audience.
I'm afraid I've given a rather long answer, and it could even be longer, but
I think that if you love this music, sing it from your heart and don't try for
anything that is fake.
Pete Brady
ghost
In article <74nj0i$7hf$3...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> gil...@mail.take.this.out.utexas.edu writes:
>ghost (j...@deas.harvard.edu) wrote:
>Shall we line up and shoot every trad musician who sits down at a
>piano? (Whoops, sorry, wrong thread.)
Nah; most of them don't play those woozy out-of-tune *chords*. I view
piano as a tuned-percussion instrument; you allow a little leeway for
tuned percussion than you do for instruments capable of finer tuning.
Lots of jazz & rock piano players come up with simultaneously-played
combinations of notes from which almost-in-tune notes seem to emerge.
Ya gotta know which ones to hit together; its *not* the ones that the
piano's designers planned for you to hit together.
>What about accordions? They
>gots all the notes set in advance. So either they're tempered, so
>their owners should be drawn and quartered, or they're tuned to a
>particular key but people play all kinds of keys on them anyway and
>therefore should be drawn and quartered as well.
Most of the accordions, melodions, etc I've heard have been set in
what is called a "meantone", meaning that they're in-tune for a lot
of notes & chords. Also, players figure out what they can get away
with on their individual instruments before they play them in public.
You usually will not find a good accordion or concertina or etc player
playing in "all kinds of keys", just in the ones in which they don't
sound shabby enough to make themselves wince.
>Most Irish traditional tunes played today have only been written in
>the last couple centuries
Wherever did you get that idea?
Some of these tunes have been cycling (& not only in Ireland) for more
than just the last couple centuries.
>, so the novelty can't be the problem. Is it
>okay to put together a medley of tunes that aren't all in the same
>key, or have a B part in a different key from the A part?
Not unless you're on an instrument that isn't tempered, or have thought
out what notes are going to be used for all the tunes so that you've
picked tunes where your tuning deficiencies aren't showing. Most
key changes in modern trad-style medleys are up a 5th or down a 5th;
that way you get notes that are still in tune for the new key, its just
that the notes will form different intervals with the new key.
>: They can't improvise; most of them can't even play a tune at all without
>: looking at those notes on paper
>There you have a point. But not a universal point. Many can't, many
>can.
>I also know plenty of non-classically-trained trad players who can't
>improvise. Improvisation is more a part of some traditions than
>others.
What's really more important than improvisation, which means making
things up on the spot, is just knowing how to pick new tunes out on
your instrument. You don't necessarily have to know how to *compose*
new tunes, instantly or gradually, but you *have* to know where the
notes of a tune you've been given will fall on your instrument without
someone handing you a map of it.
>I'm sure you can. But none of what you say applies to "anyone who has
>permitted themselves to be trained" in classical music, or for that
>matter anyone who has ever enjoyed a piece of classical music. Or
>early music, which also seems to be on your shit list.
Its the same thing. I have yet to personally meet any "early music"
person who hasn't been trained in equal-temperament &, if they sing
or play together with singers, hideous operatic-style vocal production.
I can occasionally hear some on record who have escaped this, & have
read stuff by some on usenet who claim they have escaped this, but but I've
personally met hundreds who are no different from their "romantic era"
counterparts in tuning, voicing, timing, etc.
>You cannot assume that EVERY person whose original musical training
>was in classical music can never adapt to other forms.
There's very little evidence that they can adapt or want to.
Most people who have no patience with the rigid mind-set they're being
told to develop abandon the training early.
>There is a
>world of difference between baroque music and modern "classical"
>music.
Sorry; not the way its being played & recorded.
>There is a world of difference between Irish music and
>klezmer. People can learn more than one musical style, just as they
>can learn more than one language. (Come to think of it, I think those
>abilities are related. It has to do with putting yourself in a
>different mindset and understanding that there truly is another way
>to do things & view things.)
>Some people are dense, and don't listen, and don't realize they ain't
>doing it right. Some people are still in the process of learning.
>Since most people who didn't start out in traditional music happen to
>have come from classical music, most of the people that you'll come
>across "doing it wrong" are gonna be classical players. Not all of
>'em. It's a statistical matter, not a character matter.
Its a character matter. If someone who doesn't think that they know the
only way on earth there is to play music recognizes that they're doing
something wrong because they're not getting the effect the person
they're trying to learn from is getting, they'll try & find out what
to do to get it right. European classical musicians, by contrast,
think that everyone else is playing their own music wrong & that they,
the European classical musicians, have arrived on the scene to tell them
how to make it right. Like you said, it involves a mind-set, but they
have a mind-set that can't be changed. Everything sounds wrong to them
if its not interpreted the way they were taught.
>What about
>old-timey or Cajun players that try to play Irish music and it comes
>out sounding like old-time or Cajun? Irish players who try to play
>old-time and it comes out sounding like Irish? Or a talented Latin
>American drummer who picks up a bodhran & plays it too aggressively?
>They're just as wrong as the classical player who fails to get the
>right style & sense to the music. They just don't set off any of your
>hot buttons.
Nah; if you are immersed in a particular tradition & you pick up a tune
from some other tradition, its going to come out interpreted in your
idiom. That's *how* these tunes got passed around the world before
the days of radio. Everyone who heard them adapted them. If the Cajun
or old-time or whatever musician said "this is exactly how this tune
sounded when played by the Irish person I learned it from" & then went
into the Cajunized or old-time or whatever version of it, I'd take
exception, but they don't do that; they say "here's this Irish tune I
learned" & then go into what is obviously an interpreted-into-another-idiom
version of it.
Jeri Corlew
(Paraphrasing Michael Wodzak)
>"I have lived in Columbia Missouri for 13 years & haven't lost my British
>accent, so you're wrong".
>
>I took umbrage at that because I never said that *you* should have
>lost your accent. I had said that if a person were living in a region
>&
Or. There was an "or" in there.
>had become deeply steeped in the culture of the region, especially
>as it applied to speech, they could be expected to pick up the local accent.
I don't speak Boolean, but it seemed like you were saying if either one of the
conditions (living or steeping) were met, they'd be expected to pick up the
accent. Michael didn't claim to be steeped, therefore he was replying only to
your first condition of living there and left off the second condition.
I've known people who moved somewhere and lived there for decades without
picking up the accent and others who talk like natives after a few months. I
wonder what makes some people more susceptible than others.
--
Jeri Corlew
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
---== http://www.newsfeeds.com - Largest Usenet Server In The World! ==---
Jeri Corlew
wrote:
>Ptbrady wrote:
>>
>
>> I'm afraid that I'm a purist when it comes to ballads. The most important
>> thing is to get across the WORDS, in a style that conveys the depth of their
>> meaning. Fake accents, loud accompaniment (or accompaniment with new age
>> chords) are all distractions.
>
>How do you feel about Americans singing Scottish ballads? Should they be
>sung in the old Scots language or standard (American) English? Some of
>them "lose" something when sung in English yet they may be more popular
>if they were more widely understood.
Yeah, that was my main point in asking everyone's opinion. It seems like some
(most) of the Scottish words don't sound right if you don't do the accent, but
in my case they *really* don't sound right when I try. I personally favor the
Scottish words - they're part of a song's history.
H Gilmer
: >, so the novelty can't be the problem. Is it
: >okay to put together a medley of tunes that aren't all in the same
: >key, or have a B part in a different key from the A part?
: Not unless you're on an instrument that isn't tempered, or have thought
: out what notes are going to be used for all the tunes so that you've
: picked tunes where your tuning deficiencies aren't showing. Most
: key changes in modern trad-style medleys are up a 5th or down a 5th;
: that way you get notes that are still in tune for the new key, its just
: that the notes will form different intervals with the new key.
I'l leave for someone who has better records of what's in what key
than I do to see what combinations of keys well-respected bands have
put together in medleys. (I started to look & realized this is not the
time of the semester for me to blow off *quite* that much time...)
: What's really more important than improvisation, which means making
: things up on the spot, is just knowing how to pick new tunes out on
: your instrument. You don't necessarily have to know how to *compose*
: new tunes, instantly or gradually, but you *have* to know where the
: notes of a tune you've been given will fall on your instrument without
: someone handing you a map of it.
Yes, and many classical musicians, most of the ones I've known, can do
this. I have met very few who, if you hum or play a melody at them,
have trouble playing it back. Yes, there are some who can't. I have
met exactly one person who can't immediately produce on her instrument
anything that she can hum. Apparently you have met more of them than
I have. Some can retain a new melody faster than others, or pick up
longer chunks at a time, but that variety is found in non-classical
players as well.
: >I'm sure you can. But none of what you say applies to "anyone who has
: >permitted themselves to be trained" in classical music, or for that
: >matter anyone who has ever enjoyed a piece of classical music. Or
: >early music, which also seems to be on your shit list.
: Its the same thing. I have yet to personally meet any "early music"
: person who hasn't been trained in equal-temperament &, if they sing
: or play together with singers, hideous operatic-style vocal production.
: I can occasionally hear some on record who have escaped this, & have
: read stuff by some on usenet who claim they have escaped this, but but I've
: personally met hundreds who are no different from their "romantic era"
: counterparts in tuning, voicing, timing, etc.
Yes, because just as many people come from classical music into
traditional music without knowing what they're really supposed to be
doing, many have come from classical music into baroque and early
music without knowing what they're really supposed to be doing.
And before you take that as a springboard for another rant about how
evil classical musicians are, there are plenty of classical players
who *can* adapt to baroque or earlier styles. Unfortunately a lot of
earlier music has been recorded in classical/romantic style, so that's
what people hear & don't know what it's really supposed to be like.
If it's pointed out to them, those that care can figure it out. And
yes, there are plenty that care.
: >You cannot assume that EVERY person whose original musical training
: >was in classical music can never adapt to other forms.
: There's very little evidence that they can adapt or want to.
: Most people who have no patience with the rigid mind-set they're being
: told to develop abandon the training early.
And others encounter new forms later in life and do adapt. You might
not realize how many of the awesome players around you got their start
in classical, because they *have* adapted. The only classical players
you can be sure of are the ones who suck. That's bound to skew your
perception.
: >world of difference between baroque music and modern "classical"
: Sorry; not the way its being played & recorded.
Unfortunately, that is often true. But not always. And chances are
the early/baroque people that you are so eager to sneer at are more
aware than yer average classical player of the notion of different
styles. They do the exact same complaining you do about people
playing things in the wrong style.
: >Some people are dense, and don't listen, and don't realize they ain't
: >doing it right. Some people are still in the process of learning.
: >Since most people who didn't start out in traditional music happen to
: >have come from classical music, most of the people that you'll come
: >across "doing it wrong" are gonna be classical players. Not all of
: >'em. It's a statistical matter, not a character matter.
: Its a character matter. If someone who doesn't think that they know the
: only way on earth there is to play music recognizes that they're doing
: something wrong because they're not getting the effect the person
: they're trying to learn from is getting, they'll try & find out what
: to do to get it right.
Yes, of course it's ultimately a character matter but what I'm saying
is this character trait is less causally linked to classical training
than you might think it is. Most of the people coming into trad from
some other, um, tradition are coming from classical. Therefore most
of the neophytes are coming from classical. Therefore most of the
clueless and dense neophytes are coming from classical. But it's a
matter of the size of the starting population.
: European classical musicians, by contrast,
: think that everyone else is playing their own music wrong & that they,
: the European classical musicians, have arrived on the scene to tell them
: how to make it right. Like you said, it involves a mind-set, but they
: have a mind-set that can't be changed. Everything sounds wrong to them
: if its not interpreted the way they were taught.
Talk about mindsets that can't be changed...
Look, you keep talking about the set of "European classical musicians"
like they are all exactly the same. And they aren't. There are
plenty who fit your description. There are plenty who don't. There
are plenty of trad snobs as well, who put down other forms of music
(like Irish players who look down on Appalachian). So to dismiss
someone you've never heard just because you've found out that they
have classical training or listen to classical music is not a logical
move.
: >What about
: >old-timey or Cajun players that try to play Irish music and it comes
: >out sounding like old-time or Cajun? Irish players who try to play
: >old-time and it comes out sounding like Irish? Or a talented Latin
: >American drummer who picks up a bodhran & plays it too aggressively?
: >They're just as wrong as the classical player who fails to get the
: >right style & sense to the music. They just don't set off any of your
: >hot buttons.
: Nah; if you are immersed in a particular tradition & you pick up a tune
: from some other tradition, its going to come out interpreted in your
: idiom. That's *how* these tunes got passed around the world before
: the days of radio. Everyone who heard them adapted them. If the Cajun
: or old-time or whatever musician said "this is exactly how this tune
: sounded when played by the Irish person I learned it from" & then went
: into the Cajunized or old-time or whatever version of it, I'd take
: exception, but they don't do that; they say "here's this Irish tune I
: learned" & then go into what is obviously an interpreted-into-another-idiom
: version of it.
Nope, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an Irish
player who attends old-timey sessions & plays old-timey tunes Irish,
or a Cajun player who attends Irish sessions & plays Irish tunes
Cajun, etc. And not because they're showing folks a neat new
interpretation, but because that's just the way they play, and they
may not even realize it. It happens. Traditional musicians aren't
perfect either.
Hg
H Gilmer
: >Say, a few months ago someone was saying on this group that *anyone*
: >can learn how to sing. Anyone have hints for working past extremely
: >variable voice quality?
: Well, 1st of all, don't go to an European classical voice teacher
: unless you want to sound like you've got a mouth full of rotten fruit
: (& want people in trad circles to laugh at your singing).
Hadn't even considered it.
: Try to find out what you're "doing right", that is, what are some of
: the factors that govern your voice quality when you think its good.
In my case I don't wake up with the same voice every morning. There
are people out there with consistently hoarse voices, and they just
make that part of their style. My degree of hoarseness is highly
variable, the range in which the voice "works" is highly variable, the
points (both pitch & volume) at which it will crack are highly
variable. I need to learn to sing, it seems, with a bunch of
different voices so I'm prepared for most of what my body cares to
offer up. I guess if I do it every day I'll eventually get familiar
with the gamut.
This isn't really on-topic for this group, though. If anyone has any
further ideas, please fix my address and email me.
Hg
Brad Hurley
ghost ) wrote:
>In article <bhurley-0812...@usr0a40.bf.sover.net>
bhu...@sover.net (Brad Hurley) writes:
>
>>In fact the regional styles were never quite as distinct as some
>>folklorists led us to believe.
>
>You'd like to believe that, but you show no documentation for it.
Don't take my word for it. Ask any academic who has seriously studied
Irish music, or better yet, any musician who lives in Ireland and has any
sense of the history of traditional Irish music. I'm not saying there
aren't regional styles. I'm just saying that cross-fertilization and
outside influence (from other regions) has been happening a long time,
even before musicians started recording on gramophones.
>The deeper anyone gets into studying a regional style in any kind
>of traditional music the more distinctive the differing aspects appear
>to them.
Yes, but if you go deeper still, you learn that cross-fertilization with
other regions did occur, and that individual "star" players had a broad
influence outside their region. That kind of thing went on before Michael
Coleman's LPs came on the scene.
>There are far more examples of people who learned from their neighbors
>& close relatives than there are of people who learned from visitors
>from another region. Of course both forms of learning occur.
Yes, both do, and people who learned from visitors (or while traveling)
passed on what they learned to other people in their region or family.
>Right, but there are also things being called regions that haven't been
>defined very well; it makes no sense to assume that political boundaries
>(such as "county X") necessarily define style boundaries.
Of course not. East Clare, East Galway, and West Tipperary musicians have
(or had) many similar elements in their playing. Sean Ryan and Paddy Fahy
played together often; in fact I have a tape of the two of them in a
session.
>advising new players to develop
>a broad "mix-&-match" approach will do to Irish music what has happened
>to the blues; you get a lot of technical wizards, mostly coming from
>outside the tradition, who play a mish-mash of styles & without much feeling.
That's one possible outcome. Another is that people will draw the best
from the regional styles they are exposed to and develop their own
individual style. People like Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, and many other
prominent musicians have done this. I think it's mostly Americans and
other people outside the tradition who are concerned about the perceived
need to play in a particular regional style. Actual Irish musicians are
mostly concerned with developing an individual style, of learning from
individual players that they respect, regardless of what part of the
country they came from.
--
Brad Hurley
"I believe a leaf of grass is no less than the journey-work of the stars...
And a mouse is miracle enough to stagger sextillions of infidels."
--Walt Whitman
Nigel & Nancy Sellars
>
> Fake accents are troublesome to me. I recently heard a woman sing ballads.
> Since I am from New York/New Jersey, and since this concert was in New Jersey,
> and since her speech was accent-free to my ears, I think it safe to say she
> comes from this area.
> But not in the songs. She put on a fake Scots-Brit-Irish-God_Knows_What
> accent, which I found most distracting (as I did Julia Roberts in the film
> about Michael Collins).
> thing is to get across the WORDS, in a style that conveys the depth of their
> meaning. Fake accents, loud accompaniment (or accompaniment with new age
> chords) are all distractions.
Pete, I think what your beef really is is with people who have contrived
"accents" -- Irish and Scots, especially. where they roll the "R's" to
extreme. Indeed, what too often happens is the singer, trying to appear
"Authentic" uses what amounts to a stage brogue or comic accent you
don't find in real life and ends up a hopeless parody. I don't notice
this as much with English accents, but since you find fewer people doing
English songs it may simply not be as obvious. Now, having said that, I
do sing with an accent, but it's subconscious to a large extent. I was
born in England and grew up in Canada and the American SW and learned
many songs from my mother, who despite 35 years in Oklahoma still has
her accent (my own remains larely Canadian). I also have some acting
experience where I learned a little goes a long way when it comes to
accents . For example, I consciously sing "Jamie Raeburn" with a Scots
accent, but I do so very carefully, trying to emulate the singers I
learned it from. I find that sort of flavoring can be effective and
audiences love it, but again only in small doses.
Nigel Sellars
Brad Hurley
styles were not immune to outside influence:
The most obvious evidence that regional musicians were exposed to and
influenced by music from other regions is the fact that some tunes were
played throughout Ireland, long before recorded music came on the scene.
If everyone stayed home and never heard music from anywhere else, how do
you suppose that happened?
It's true that some tunes are associated with a particular region. I doubt
that tunes like Corney is Coming or the Carraroe Jig were much played
outside of Clare until the last 30-40 years. But there are also tunes that
are common to most regions.
I agree it's a shame that so few people play in a recognizable regional
style anymore, and that Irish music is undergoing a degree of
homogenization. I hope that more people go back and listen to the older
players and get a good grounding in the roots of the tradition. But I
don't think it's my "duty" to preserve a tradition by embalming it, by
confining myself to a particular regional style that is hardly played
anymore (even in Ireland) just because I have been led to believe it's
"authentic." I don't think any traditional Irish musician would close his
or her ears to players from other regions and other styles. Irish music
really is a living tradition, for better or for worse.
ghost
I had said:
>> I'm glad you can recognize a 5th; you're ahead of most of the game
>> of classical players.
>> Can you tune your fiddle without consulting a tuning-device?
>So that's what all the little boxes with the flashy lights on them are
>what I've been seeing on the concert stage. I'd always thought the
>violin section had brought along their Gameboys.
Most of those tuners are set to 12-TET, & they don't necessarily post
warnings about it on the box either. So if you tune anything other than
octaves, 5ths & 4ths to their instructions you'll be way off-tune. (Even the
5th & 4ths aren't perfect, but they're very close.) To get an electronic
tuner that's set to different temperaments you need one that comes with
cards you can put in that change the temperament. These will be
expensive, but just because your tuner *is* expensive doesn't mean it *has*
this feature.
I've seen a lot of people at trad & trad-style shows making faces at
their tuners because their ears are telling them one thing & the
out-of-tuner they paid a lot for is telling them another.
Of course, they used to make faces when they tuned by ear, too,
but at least they finally got where they were going.
ghost
>As a further response to ghost, who questions the assertion that regional
>styles were not immune to outside influence:
I never said they were immune to outside influence, but the tendency is
to take something from outside & turn it into your own "inside" style.
At best you get a kind of fusion, a new style with clear elements of
all the ingredients showing.
>The most obvious evidence that regional musicians were exposed to and
>influenced by music from other regions is the fact that some tunes were
>played throughout Ireland, long before recorded music came on the scene.
>If everyone stayed home and never heard music from anywhere else, how do
>you suppose that happened?
People traveled, sometimes even as professional musicians. *Tunes*
get traded around that way. Styles do too, but the tendency is for
a strong regional style to stay a strong regional style. Or a strong
family style to stay a strong family style. You're underestimating
the influence of the people at home in the region (or in the family)
who just don't *like* changes introduced, & will tell you in
plain English (or Gaelic) to stop doing whatever you had picked up that
they didn't like. And you're underestimating the effect of being disapproved
of by your peers (or family) on musicians. Not everyone wants to be the
bold challenger of the local customs who no-one wants to play with.
Michael Wodzak
> >> I'm glad you can recognize a 5th; you're ahead of most of the game
> >> of classical players.
> >> Can you tune your fiddle without consulting a tuning-device?
>
To which I responded:
> >So that's what all the little boxes with the flashy lights on them are
> >what I've been seeing on the concert stage. I'd always thought the
> >violin section had brought along their Gameboys.
>
And she answered:
> Most of those tuners are set to 12-TET, & they don't necessarily post
> warnings about it on the box either. So if you tune anything other than
> octaves, 5ths & 4ths to their instructions you'll be way off-tune. (Even the
> 5th & 4ths aren't perfect, but they're very close.) To get an electronic
> tuner that's set to different temperaments you need one that comes with
> cards you can put in that change the temperament. These will be
> expensive, but just because your tuner *is* expensive doesn't mean it *has*
> this feature.
Good Lord, Joan! How bitter do you have to be before you fail to
recognise a simple and obvious joke??
Just for the record:
1) I do not own any kind of electronic tuner or pitch pipe etc etc. I
tune up to the other instruments playing by ear.
2) I have never seen any kind of electronic tuner on the concert stage
(those folks too tune up by ear) -- although the guy playing the drums
in the 1812 Overture does sometimes bring along his Gameboy.
Just in case it has escaped you, the Gameboy comment here was a joke
too.
ghost
>Nope, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an Irish
>player who attends old-timey sessions & plays old-timey tunes Irish,
>or a Cajun player who attends Irish sessions & plays Irish tunes
>Cajun, etc. And not because they're showing folks a neat new
>interpretation, but because that's just the way they play, and they
>may not even realize it. It happens. Traditional musicians aren't
>perfect either.
The thing is that the other people in the session realize that the
Irish player isn't "playing old-time" & that the Cajun player isn't
"playing Irish". Maybe these interpreters from other trad music
*don't* realize that they've introduced some characteristics that
the session players may like but don't want as part of their session,
but, believe me, they'll get *told*.
So why, when European classical players show up, don't they also
get gently (or not so gently) told
"you're playing a different kind of music!"?
I think one reason is that many of them are such incompetent musicians
that the stilted playing & the rigid timing & the off-tuning are just taken
to be the result of beginner's nerves. Playing with a lot of vibrato
could also be a result of nerves, I guess (I know of one case of a
fiddle player where it literally was).
But in many cases they've pretty much taken over session playing.
How come? (In New England, there've always been a lot of classical
refugees in English country-dance music, which is characteristically
pretty formal, if not necessarily stilted; I hate to hear Irish sessions
turn into English country-dance sessions, though).
ghost
>In my case I don't wake up with the same voice every morning. There
>are people out there with consistently hoarse voices, and they just
>make that part of their style. My degree of hoarseness is highly
>variable, the range in which the voice "works" is highly variable, the
>points (both pitch & volume) at which it will crack are highly
>variable. I need to learn to sing, it seems, with a bunch of
>different voices so I'm prepared for most of what my body cares to
>offer up. I guess if I do it every day I'll eventually get familiar
>with the gamut.
The "in" diagnosis for voice problems these days is
"acid reflux from your stomach is bathing your vocal cords". I personally
think this diagnosis is overused, but since you sound like you have some
of the symptoms (morning hoarseness is one) it wouldn't hurt for you to try
some of the easier remedies & see if they have an effect:
sleep with your head elevated (towards sitting-up position)
don't eat the kinds of foods that cause stomach acid to be generated
(don't eat anything good, in other words)
don't eat for several hours before you go to sleep
In general, if you wake up hoarse:
Don't expect to "rise up singing" like the book-cover; why should you?
If you smoke or drink, stop it. For several years.
If you're living in a dry area you could also try a sleeping with
a room humidifier on, but be aware that these things breed bacteria
& for that reason can be more trouble than they're worth;
if you have & use radiator heat, a pan of water hung over the radiator
is a good humidifier & easier to keep clean.
ArrahCee
>born in England and grew up in Canada and the American SW and learned
>many songs from my mother, who despite 35 years in Oklahoma still has
>her accent (my own remains larely Canadian). I also have some acting
>experience where I learned a little goes a long way when it comes to
>accents . For example, I consciously sing "Jamie Raeburn" with a Scots
>accent, but I do so very carefully, trying to emulate the singers I
>learned it from. I find that sort of flavoring can be effective and
>audiences love it, but again only in small doses.
>
>Nigel Sellars
>
That certainly helps-- and you have that English name, to boot.
Probably not a lot of folks in Oklahoma named "Nigel-Bob".
Rick Cunningham
arra...@aol.com
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
>
> In article <36703C...@worldnet.att.net> Pete...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> >I notice that you forgot
> >to comment on celtic fiddlers playing with ET accompaniment like piano.
>
> I'm not required to comment on your every point, you know, but anyway
> I've done that bit at length before.
>
> The only ones I'm familiar with play with a piano-as-percussion
> accompaniment. You won't hear any Cape Breton piano players emphasizing
> those out-of-tune chords, or making all kinds of woozy tinkling sounds,
> or interjecting little "holidays" that have nothing to do with the tune.
> They're there to keep the beat.
Indeed! How silly of me not to have noticed. And the guitar too, with
it's logaritmically spaced frets. I guess Dennis Cahill is just a
percussionist on "The Lonesome Touch" album? Damned good percussion. I
really like the percussion effects on track 11. How about Paul Machlis?
>
> (I'm not all that fond of how much the particular kind of piano accompaniment
> regularizes the fiddler's timing, but its not my decision to make. I prefer
> to listen to the famous Cape Breton fiddlers on those rare chances where
> they play unaccompanied, but *they* prefer to play with a piano,
> & play for dances.)
>
> >ONCE AGAIN>>> I am NOT a classical musician.
>
> Oh gosh, I must have you confused with the Pete Schug who in this very
> space a few months ago was oozing on & on about Bach & his very rich mentor
> & the mentor's kidney problems, or was it Bach's kidney problems. I forget.
> Anyway, you went all rhapsodic, to coin a phrase, about symphonies.
> Or *that* Pete Schug did.
When I wrote that I thought I was addressing a twelve year old with some
rigid ideas. Imagine my surprise to discover that I was addressing a
middle-aged twelve year old with fixed ideas and a vivid imaginination.
And to remind you, I just said that Fredrick the Great didn't give Bach
time to go to the bathroom before he played a theme for him, that Bach
then improvised on that theme for an hour and eventually published the
written out improvisations for Frederic.
Bach had no mentors and no equal either, to this day.
Pete
ghost
>And the guitar too, with
>it's logaritmically spaced frets. I guess Dennis Cahill is just a
>percussionist on "The Lonesome Touch" album? Damned good percussion. I
>really like the percussion effects on track 11. How about Paul Machlis?
Good guitarists figure out that they don't have to put their fingers
exactly on the frets (there's no glue holding them there, etc),
& that furthermore if they don't the notes sound much better. Oh yeah,
how you pick the string with the other hand helps too.
>And to remind you, I just said that Fredrick the Great didn't give Bach
>time to go to the bathroom before he played a theme for him, that Bach
>then improvised on that theme for an hour and eventually published the
>written out improvisations for Frederic.
>Bach had no mentors
Freddy (& all those others) *didn't* pay him?
He wrote in a garret tunes he hoped a grateful & similarly indigent
populace would put on?
Exactly what are you trying to say here?
(at least the guy knew how to improvise, a trait his latter-day
admirers would do well to pick up)
(and if I get invited to any palaces I'm heading for the toilet 1st thing,
no questions asked. Just in case. Often, its the best room, I'm told)
H Gilmer
: In article <74q8ai$kl7$4...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> gil...@mail.take.this.out.utexas.edu writes:
: >Nope, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about an Irish
: >player who attends old-timey sessions & plays old-timey tunes Irish,
: >or a Cajun player who attends Irish sessions & plays Irish tunes
: >Cajun, etc. And not because they're showing folks a neat new
: >interpretation, but because that's just the way they play, and they
: >may not even realize it. It happens. Traditional musicians aren't
: >perfect either.
: The thing is that the other people in the session realize that the
: Irish player isn't "playing old-time" & that the Cajun player isn't
: "playing Irish". Maybe these interpreters from other trad music
: *don't* realize that they've introduced some characteristics that
: the session players may like but don't want as part of their session,
: but, believe me, they'll get *told*.
Believe me, they don't.
[re classical players]
: But in many cases they've pretty much taken over session playing.
: How come?
Cuz there are a lot of them. Actually, the first session I ever
attended on a regular basis was almost entirely contradance musicians
(without classical background).
Hg
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
>
> In article <36718B...@worldnet.att.net> Pete...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> >And the guitar too, with
> >it's logaritmically spaced frets. I guess Dennis Cahill is just a
> >percussionist on "The Lonesome Touch" album? Damned good percussion. I
> >really like the percussion effects on track 11. How about Paul Machlis?
>
> Good guitarists figure out that they don't have to put their fingers
> exactly on the frets (there's no glue holding them there, etc),
> & that furthermore if they don't the notes sound much better. Oh yeah,
> how you pick the string with the other hand helps too.
And people who actually play the guitar know that the fret determines
the pitch of the note. The only way to alter the pitch is to stretch the
string sideways which will raise the pitch, playing hob with those
already too sharp thirds. You cannot play a guitar flat by finger
position. That is another of your made up answers out of fantasy land.
>
> >And to remind you, I just said that Fredrick the Great didn't give Bach
> >time to go to the bathroom before he played a theme for him, that Bach
> >then improvised on that theme for an hour and eventually published the
> >written out improvisations for Frederic.
>
> >Bach had no mentors
>
> Freddy (& all those others) *didn't* pay him?
Look up mentor one of these days.
>
> He wrote in a garret tunes he hoped a grateful & similarly indigent
> populace would put on?
>
> Exactly what are you trying to say here?
>
> (at least the guy knew how to improvise, a trait his latter-day
> admirers would do well to pick up)
My improvisation is in the field of music, and I am sure yours is in
internet communication.
>
> (and if I get invited to any palaces I'm heading for the toilet 1st thing,
> no questions asked. Just in case. Often, its the best room, I'm told)
I'm certain that if you managed to get into a palace you wouldn't be met
at the door by an enthusiastic world leader who would drag you off to
the nearest piano. (Frederic had seventeen pianos scattered around his
palace, there being maybe only fify or so pianos in the world at the
time. I think he was trying to encourage Silberman in his endeavors by
buying his entire output. The term for that is "Patron." And no,
Frederick was not Bach's patron in any direct sense. He did write a
letter or two on his behalf, and he was his sons employer, but he was
not Bach's patron in a financial sense, and, to my knowledge Bach did
not have any mentors.
Eric Root
(lots of good advice about avoiding hoarseness)
I agree with all that stuff, but lots of other stuff can help, and also
lots of other stuff can be going on. In addition to not eating before
bed, you can take a calcium-based antacid tablet; it not only cuts the
stomach acid, but calcium has a slight relaxant effect on the nervous
system. Cut back on dairy products and eggs, because they increase
phlegm and post-nasal drip.
Variation may also be unavoidable to some extent. I have a slight
chronic hayfever/sinus problem which I often take an over the counter
antihistimine - decongestant for, but that causes dryness, which
sometimes is a problem and sometimes isn't,so the solution is imperfect
at best. Also, when you're asleep, your larynx relaxes and your spine
spreads out, changing your posture and the length and shape of your
vocal tract. I know I can hit low notes way more credibly in the
morning. Also different kinds and amounts of exercise (I don't mean
vocal exercises, I mean like working out in the gym, running, or
dancing) can vary the tension and relaxation periods of the various
vocal muscles from what they might otherwise be. Coming out of the cold
in the winter or coming out of the heat in the summer has definite
effects.
What kind of music you are singing can effect your voice a lot. When I
sing blues, my voice tends to be a somewhat high, whiney rasp; when I
sing anglo-american folk, or thirties and forties songs (this latter in
the shower only <8^)) my voice is more of a moderate baritone.
-Eric Root
- Read more non-fiction?! I get enough _non-fiction_ in real life!
Jeri Corlew
<snipped a bunch>
>I agree with all that stuff, but lots of other stuff can help, and also
>lots of other stuff can be going on. In addition to not eating before
>bed, you can take a calcium-based antacid tablet; it not only cuts the
>stomach acid, but calcium has a slight relaxant effect on the nervous
>system. Cut back on dairy products and eggs, because they increase
>phlegm and post-nasal drip.
I cut out supper altogether, and I'm probably making the company that produces
Zantac rich.
>Variation may also be unavoidable to some extent. I have a slight
>chronic hayfever/sinus problem which I often take an over the counter
>antihistimine - decongestant for, but that causes dryness, which
>sometimes is a problem and sometimes isn't,so the solution is imperfect
>at best.
I use something made by Herbs, etc called "Singer's Saving Grace." It's an
herbal (and alcohol) throat spray. This stuff is unbelievably effective on
dryness and phlegm. And I've heard drinks with citrus have a slight
antihistamine effect.
ghost
>Joan the Ghostie wrote:
>
>(lots of good advice about avoiding hoarseness)
>I agree with all that stuff, but lots of other stuff can help, and also
>lots of other stuff can be going on. In addition to not eating before
>bed, you can take a calcium-based antacid tablet; it not only cuts the
>stomach acid, but calcium has a slight relaxant effect on the nervous
>system. Cut back on dairy products and eggs, because they increase
>phlegm and post-nasal drip.
I didn't give the full regimen for time & space considerations
(& because I always leave *something* out) but this being usenet
I would have guessed the gaps would be filled in quickly.
Once not so long ago when I had problem with chronically dry throat
I heard a regimen given for what foods asthma sufferers should avoid
(dairy products, nuts) because they're thought or known to cause
mucus production & I went out & made a point of eating those goodies before
trying to sing. It works, to a point. At this time I have the opposite
problem, though.
And if you *are* an asthma sufferer (I'm *not*), eating all that
supposedly innocuous mucus-producing food could make you an asthma
death-statistic. Its serious business. Asthmatics should also avoid
zinc tablets (a recently touted wonder-drug for immune-system boosting)
for the same reason; they do, among other things, increase mucus production.
>Variation may also be unavoidable to some extent. I have a slight
>chronic hayfever/sinus problem which I often take an over the counter
>antihistimine - decongestant for, but that causes dryness, which
>sometimes is a problem and sometimes isn't,so the solution is imperfect
>at best.
I figured that the original poster (H. Gilmer) would know if they
had allergies or not; its pretty obvious if you have them, & so are
those side-effects of the medicines. One of the benefits of
at-least-trying to sleep sitting-up (which is said to reduce the
height *up* your throat to which stomach acid can reflux) is that if you
do have allergies, all that lovely glop gets to drain *down* your throat in a
slightly different direction sometimes (& sometimes actually *does* drain,
instead of pooling in one place. Well, from a scientific viewpoint I can't
actually say, never having read anything to this effect, that while lying down
it pools, but from a allergy-victim viewpoint I can say it certainly *feels*
like it does.).
>Also, when you're asleep, your larynx relaxes and your spine
>spreads out, changing your posture and the length and shape of your
>vocal tract. I know I can hit low notes way more credibly in the
>morning. Also different kinds and amounts of exercise (I don't mean
>vocal exercises, I mean like working out in the gym, running, or
>dancing) can vary the tension and relaxation periods of the various
>vocal muscles from what they might otherwise be. Coming out of the cold
>in the winter or coming out of the heat in the summer has definite
>effects.
One of the other obvious causes of voice changes is just-plain-nervousness,
but there aren't really any good ways to treat that (saying "relax"
doesn't work that well). If you *can* work out some effective-for-you
muscle-relaxant routines before trying to sing, that's good for you.
[I've read about extremely nervous professional performers using heart drugs
that are clearly *not* indicated for their problem of transitory nervousness,
which isn't a chronic medical condition. These drugs can have serious effects
if you use them intermittantly instead of continually (they're prescribed
for continual use to heart patients); the intermittant self-dosers could be
putting themselves in serious medical jeopardy. And the side-effects of
*continual* use of these drugs aren't a joke either. I'd say they're no more
an ideal solution to stage-nerves than any of the more time-honored
dangerous relaxants are.]
>What kind of music you are singing can effect your voice a lot. When I
>sing blues, my voice tends to be a somewhat high, whiney rasp; when I
>sing anglo-american folk, or thirties and forties songs (this latter in
>the shower only <8^)) my voice is more of a moderate baritone.
A lot of singing styles require a somewhat-forced voice, but I think
someone just starting to sing out loud around other people should go with
a more-relaxed voice even if it isn't ideal, according to their
personal aesthetics, for the style they're trying to sing in.
If you're nervous already, the tension in your throat may help you generate
that somewhat-forced voice more easily, but singing with that extra tension
is *not* good for your throat. Ideally, you should be able to relax & *then*
decide how much tension you need to get the right sound, rather than let
nerves dictate the tension-level for you. (I'd love to be able to practise
what I preach, by the way.)
Craig Cockburn
<er...@webtv.net> writes
>morning. Also different kinds and amounts of exercise (I don't mean
>vocal exercises, I mean like working out in the gym, running, or
>dancing) can vary the tension and relaxation periods of the various
>vocal muscles from what they might otherwise be.
I would go along with that - when I was practising for The Mod I used to
go out on long cycles and it helped my voice tone and breath control.
--
Craig Cockburn ("coburn") http://www.scot.demon.co.uk/
Port na Banrighinn, Alba. (Queensferry, Scotland) PGP key available.
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Darryl L. Pierce
<wod...@lie.math.missouri.edu> wrote:
;> A double negative in English
;> (such as "you ain't seen nothing yet") also will confuse people who
;> only speak Boolean
;
;Yeah. Right. (A double positive by the way ;o} ). Do you know any such
;critters??
Yeah yeah... (another one)
Mise le meas,
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| Visit me @ http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/1335/ |
| "...ag seinm ceoil do phocaí falamh" - Antoine Raftéirí |
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+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Lee Wenzbauer
who use electronic tuners. Yes, it makes them out of tune a lot, especially
playing with fixed pitch trad instruments like whistle & pipes. I always
figured that was what the Guinness was for.
Michael Wodzak wrote:
> Joan wrote:
> [stuff deleted]
--
Lee Wenzbauer Just learn the tune!
TESUJI 5k* on IGS - Noel Rice
l...@web-press.com
bo...@mindspring.com
H Gilmer
: I always tune by ear but I'm surprised at the number of trad musicians
: who use electronic tuners. Yes, it makes them out of tune a lot, especially
: playing with fixed pitch trad instruments like whistle & pipes. I always
: figured that was what the Guinness was for.
Electronic tuners bug the hell outta me, and I've seen a lot more of
them in the hands of trad players than classical. <ghostbait>See,
classical players know they have to tune by EAR!</ghostbait>
Hg
Royce Lerwick
<bo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I always tune by ear but I'm surprised at the number of trad musicians
>who use electronic tuners. Yes, it makes them out of tune a lot, especially
>playing with fixed pitch trad instruments like whistle & pipes.
Not if the whistle and pipes tune to concert pitch like they should.
The electronic tuner has done more to prevent the promulgation of
really really bad "folk" tuning than anything else in the world. The
truth is, most so-called "folk" musicians couldn't tune their way out
of a wet paper sack, particularly a lot of Cape Breton fiddlers and
American Old Time players.
Royce
Oh yes, not to mention Uilleann pipers.
Pete...@worldnet.att.net
>
> Lee Wenzbauer (bo...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> : I always tune by ear but I'm surprised at the number of trad musicians
> : who use electronic tuners. Yes, it makes them out of tune a lot, especially
> : figured that was what the Guinness was for.
>
> Electronic tuners bug the hell outta me, and I've seen a lot more of
> them in the hands of trad players than classical. <ghostbait>See,
> classical players know they have to tune by EAR!</ghostbait>
>
> Hg
I had the pleasure of playing along with three or four mostly country
music guitarists last time I was in Oklahoma. (I play fiddle.) One of
the things that got me was how neat it was to watch guys tune their
Strats and Teles without disturbing the ongoing music. They just plugged
into their tuners and tuned to the LED's without being able to hear
their instruments. Very neat, fast non-intrusive and it works in the
dark!
Tuners have their place and their uses. I've got one, but I can't
remember the last time I used it myself.
Pete
Lee Wenzbauer
> On Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:04:58 +0100, Lee Wenzbauer
> <bo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I always tune by ear but I'm surprised at the number of trad musicians
> >who use electronic tuners. Yes, it makes them out of tune a lot, especially
> >playing with fixed pitch trad instruments like whistle & pipes.
>
> Not if the whistle and pipes tune to concert pitch like they should.
Haven't you been reading the rest of this interminable troll/flame war? That's
just the point - since the whistles & pipes are not even tempered, the 2nds,
3rds, 6ths & 7ths will be different even if they tune the base pitch so it's
exactly on.
> The electronic tuner has done more to prevent the promulgation of
> really really bad "folk" tuning than anything else in the world. The
> truth is, most so-called "folk" musicians couldn't tune their way out
> of a wet paper sack, particularly a lot of Cape Breton fiddlers and
> American Old Time players.
>
> Royce
>
> Oh yes, not to mention Uilleann pipers.
I agree that for the most part it is simply that most people don't tune
well. HOWEVER, there is a difference in tuning between even-temperament
and certain traditional tuning patterns, including Irish music. This difference
does not go away even if, say, an Uilleann piper were to tune his
D to an electronic tuner. Neither tuning pattern is wrong. They are simply
different. It's not just the instrument, either. Listen to old recordings of
Paddy Killoran's fiddle music some time.
--
Lee Wenzbauer After all, it's only the mediocre who are
TESUJI 5k* on IGS always at their best.
l...@web-press.com - Jean Giraudoux
bo...@mindspring.com
ghost
>Electronic tuners bug the hell outta me, and I've seen a lot more of
>them in the hands of trad players than classical. <ghostbait>See,
>classical players know they have to tune by EAR!</ghostbait>
<picking up bait>
Most of the classical players (& especially singers!) I know are so completely
incapable of in-tune tuning that even an in-tune tuner (hard to get,
but possible) wouldn't help them. The classical players who don't
use out-of-tune tuners are using off-pitches they've memorized. They are so
glued on to what they have memorized that they can't recognize on-pitch
pitches when they hear them. At least the ones that depend on out-of-tune
tuners (out-of-tuners, for short) have the possibility of
change-for-the-tuned-&-better; those others have no hope.
And a Happy Holidays to you, too.
Royce Lerwick
<bo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Haven't you been reading the rest of this interminable troll/flame war? That's
>just the point - since the whistles & pipes are not even tempered, the 2nds,
>3rds, 6ths & 7ths will be different even if they tune the base pitch so it's
>exactly on.
This is irrelevant because a very large proponent of "folk" musicians
have gawdawfull ideas about what musical intervals ought to be, and
even a chromatic, evenly tempered tuner would be about 20-30 cents
closer than what often passes for your 3d, 4ths, 5ths, and even
octaves. In any case, there are instrument-specific tuners for guitars
and whatnot that are mainstays now in nearly every pro-player's rig,
and those who claim the best guys tune by ear aren't paying attention.
They're really scrunching their faces down to the floor pedal setup or
the rack, to see the tuner--not listening. In any case, the roadies do
nearly all the tuning and a good instrument won't need retuning
between sets--during which the talent takes a dump and a whizz and the
roadies or sound guy goes around and tunes up, or they just come back
and check the tuners again.
And the fact of the matter is, even the so-called evenly-tempered
guitar is tweaked by the player's ear and cheated or "tempered" based
on how he's got his bridge set up, compensating for best intonation in
all positions due to string deflection etc. As for the fiddler, he's
only tuning 4 out of dozens of the notes he's playing by tuner, so
even if that's even tempered, it's up to the player to put 90% or so
of the scale into tune as he plays according to his "ear."
What tuners have done is made it possible for me to tune up at home,
pull the axe out of the box onstage and be exactly in tune with the
band. Any "fine" tuning that needs to be done in play has nothing to
do with standardizing base-tuning with the tuner. In any case even a
moron can make his pathetic technique at least sound in-tune with a
tuner and so much pain and suffering has been prevented by these
simple devices, only some out-of-touch folk-Nazi would argue against
them, certainly not in principle.
>> The electronic tuner has done more to prevent the promulgation of
>> really really bad "folk" tuning than anything else in the world. The
>> truth is, most so-called "folk" musicians couldn't tune their way out
>> of a wet paper sack, particularly a lot of Cape Breton fiddlers and
>> American Old Time players.
>
>> Royce
>>
>> Oh yes, not to mention Uilleann pipers.
>
>I agree that for the most part it is simply that most people don't tune
>well. HOWEVER, there is a difference in tuning between even-temperament
>and certain traditional tuning patterns, including Irish music. This difference
>does not go away even if, say, an Uilleann piper were to tune his
>D to an electronic tuner.
Yes, and this is what needs to be corrected, because some of these
"tuning patterns" are just plain excruciating on the ears. The GHB
convention for instance, is the tune the high A as much as 30 cents
flat of a true octave, and during the last 40 years this has
fluctiated from nearly 40 cents flat in the case of many "great" solo
pipers. The reality is, if you go before a judge on the Highland pipes
today, people with scores of medals and massive trophies, and
world-class credentials will mark you down for having a true octave.
Even in this case, I can tell a student to check the low A, and set
the reed so the high A is 10 cents flat or whatever to combat this
"traditional tuning pattern." A moron couldn't do even that without a
tuner of *any* sort, chromatic, tempered or not. A moron with any sort
of tuner *can.*
>Neither tuning pattern is wrong.
Yes, they are. Some of the Cape Breton fiddlers don't even have the
4ths, 3ds, 5ths, and octaves right. The GHB "greats" usually have a D
or 4th that's painfully sharp--maybe 10-15 cents, because there is a
huge battle over what some "authorities" have called the "traditional"
Highland scale, and actually tuning the instrument the way God
intended it to be tuned. The entire Celtic scale is drone-based and
it's not trick to tune each note in it if you actually play a drone
against each note--something lost in many fiddle traditions for
instance. Again, even if you can't get these characters to tune by ear
against a drone to true intervals, the chromatic, evenly tempered
tuner from the local music shop for $30 bucks will put each note
within 10 cents or so on the worst notes, and usually within 3-5 on
everything else. That's one helluvalot better than what passes for
this "traditional tuning" scheme you're talking about. A lot of time
that's just institutionalized tin-earishness.
>They are simply
>different. It's not just the instrument, either. Listen to old recordings of
>Paddy Killoran's fiddle music some time.
Or listen to Finbar Fury's early recordings for a closer example, or
Seama Innes'. The reason players like Paddy Keenan and Liam O'Flynn or
Paddy Moloney have flown with the reborn instrument to the top of the
musical world, is sometime in the late 1960's they learned how to tune
it properly. You got one guy running the 4-minute mile, and suddenly
the world realizes that's exactly what you should be trying for. You
get on UP player tuned properly and developing the bag control to bend
into correct pitch and keep it there all up and down the scale,
suddenly you have pipe and reed makers realizing that their stuff
sucks and has to be designed to sound good for a change. Then everyone
who learns the instrument is taught from the start what a good UP and
player should sound like, and these "traditional tuning" schemes
vanish like a puff of stinky, excremental vapor, left over from
generations of wallowing in ignorance. The electronic tuner is
something of a quick and cheap musical shower that can help the novice
or the "old pro" clean himself up a bit.
Royce
Of course, the tuner can only tell you you're off, and getting any
particular instrument back "on" is another matter.
ghost
>On Mon, 28 Dec 1998 11:55:23 +0100, Lee Wenzbauer
><bo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>Haven't you been reading the rest of this interminable troll/flame war? That's
>>just the point - since the whistles & pipes are not even tempered, the 2nds,
>>3rds, 6ths & 7ths will be different even if they tune the base pitch so it's
>>exactly on.
>This is irrelevant because a very large proponent of "folk" musicians
>have gawdawfull ideas about what musical intervals ought to be, and
>even a chromatic, evenly tempered tuner would be about 20-30 cents
>closer than what often passes for your 3d, 4ths, 5ths, and even
>octaves.
As long as the intervals you tune to fall on upper harmonics reflected
back into the home octave, you're likely to be *close* to some traditional
system or other. If you want to be in the system you're *trying* to be
in, I recommend that you listen to favorite players who tune the same as
each other.
Equal-temperament doesn't put anything but the base-note & the octave
on reflected harmonics. It puts the 5ths & 4ths very, very close, &
everything else is way off.
>In any case, there are instrument-specific tuners for guitars
>and whatnot that are mainstays now in nearly every pro-player's rig,
>and those who claim the best guys tune by ear aren't paying attention.
>They're really scrunching their faces down to the floor pedal setup or
>the rack, to see the tuner--not listening.
The best guys who use tuners at all use the tuners to get close,
then do their own fine-tuning. Ask them sometime.
>In any case, the roadies do
>nearly all the tuning and a good instrument won't need retuning
>between sets--during which the talent takes a dump and a whizz and the
>roadies or sound guy goes around and tunes up, or they just come back
>and check the tuners again.
Typical heavy-metal-band mentality. Try reality, which involves
ever-changing temperatures inside the music hall (or bar).
>And the fact of the matter is, even the so-called evenly-tempered
>guitar is tweaked by the player's ear and cheated or "tempered" based
>on how he's got his bridge set up, compensating for best intonation in
>all positions due to string deflection etc. As for the fiddler, he's
>only tuning 4 out of dozens of the notes he's playing by tuner, so
>even if that's even tempered, it's up to the player to put 90% or so
>of the scale into tune as he plays according to his "ear."
So far, so good.
>What tuners have done is made it possible for me to tune up at home,
>pull the axe out of the box onstage and be exactly in tune with the
>band.
Please make your temperature-&-humidity-controlling devices available
to the general public. Patent them 1st, though.
>Any "fine" tuning that needs to be done in play has nothing to
>do with standardizing base-tuning with the tuner.
Not if you don't have a clue what you're tuning to, no.
>>I agree that for the most part it is simply that most people don't tune
>>well. HOWEVER, there is a difference in tuning between even-temperament
>>and certain traditional tuning patterns, including Irish music. This difference
>>does not go away even if, say, an Uilleann piper were to tune his
>>D to an electronic tuner.
>>Neither tuning pattern is wrong.
12-tone equal temperament, putting notes at equal-sized ratios to
each other, is perpetually out-of-tune. It was designed to be.
It was designed by European classical musicians who had a need to
change key during pieces, & wanted to sound equally out-of-tune in any key
they chose (as opposed to being Western-European trad-tuned in only one key
& way way out in most of the others). The development of the scheme to
spread the out-of-tune-ness evenly across the tuning map goes hand-in-hand
with the development of the "key" system itself.
>Yes, they are. Some of the Cape Breton fiddlers don't even have the
>4ths, 3ds, 5ths, and octaves right.
They don't have the 4ths or 3rds where *you'd* put them, because they're
not trying to play in Western-European trad tuning, they're playing
in Scottish tuning they brought over. From Scotland.
So sorry you don't like it.
>The GHB "greats" usually have a D
>or 4th that's painfully sharp--maybe 10-15 cents, because there is a
>huge battle over what some "authorities" have called the "traditional"
>Highland scale,
Goody for them
>and actually tuning the instrument the way God
>intended it to be tuned.
Unfortunately for you, there's an infinite variety of true intervals.
Sorry you can't hear any except the handful you've trained to.
You're almost as bad as a 12-TET gnome with only 1 true interval.
>The entire Celtic scale is drone-based and
>it's not trick to tune each note in it if you actually play a drone
>against each note
Works perfectly for getting the notes people want.
Of course, they may not be the notes *you* want.
>this "traditional tuning" scheme you're talking about. A lot of time
>that's just institutionalized tin-earishness.
What's institutionalized is this claiming that every culture in the world
has to follow the same tuning scheme. About 99% of the time trad tuning
is someome playing as they were taught by their parents & so forth.
Someone who actually knows what they're doing can hear the difference
between trad tunings & a bad player making excuses. From your comments,
obviously you can't.
>The reason players like Paddy Keenan and Liam O'Flynn or
>Paddy Moloney have flown with the reborn instrument to the top of the
>musical world, is sometime in the late 1960's they learned how to tune
>it properly.
They're where they are because got together with bands that had a lot of
pizzaz (with themselves included in the pizzaz-making ingredients, of
course). As great as they are, I don't think either of them would be where
they are without having had a showcase.
Maybe you should sell Paddy K. your temperature-&-humidity controller,
& also your perpetually-perfect reeds; he tends to complain a lot in concert
about misbehaving pipes. They don't actually misbehave that much in practise,
though. Of course, *he*'s playing them.
>Then everyone
>who learns the instrument is taught from the start what a good UP and
>player should sound like, and these "traditional tuning" schemes
>vanish like a puff of stinky, excremental vapor, left over from
>generations of wallowing in ignorance.
It will be a terrible day when everyone agrees to *one* & only one
tuning scheme, even if its one of the choice-of-true-intervals ones.
Fortunately, there are a lot of different-nationality bagpipes in the
world. Probably as many as tuning systems.
>The electronic tuner is
>something of a quick and cheap musical shower that can help the novice
>or the "old pro" clean himself up a bit.
You do need a shower, but you should leave any musical instrument out of it.
Aaron Lord
Royce Lerwick wrote in message <3687eb8...@news.mn.mediaone.net>...
>
>Yes, they are. Some of the Cape Breton fiddlers don't even have the
>4ths, 3ds, 5ths, and octaves right. The GHB "greats" usually have a D
>or 4th that's painfully sharp--maybe 10-15 cents, because there is a
>huge battle over what some "authorities" have called the "traditional"
>Highland scale, and actually tuning the instrument the way God
>intended it to be tuned.
There are four strings on the fiddle which are tuned in fifths, unless
you're doing some fancy Scottish alternate tuning. If a Cape Breton
fiddler's 3rds, 4ths, and octaves are out of tune, it's not necessarily
because his strings are out of tune. Unlike viols, mandolins, mandolas,
bazoukis, guitars, lutes, banjos, etc., there are no frets on the
violin/fiddle. It takes years of practice to figure out exactly where to
put your fingers. And if you take lessons after a while you might find a
teacher who's conception of intonation is completely different from what
you've become used to, and you'll have to adjust.
>The entire Celtic scale is drone-based and
>it's not trick to tune each note in it if you actually play a drone
>against each note--something lost in many fiddle traditions for
>instance.
Many teachers do teach their students to play in tune by having them play
scales against the drone of adjacent strings, so the tradition isn't
completely lost. But we don't call it "tuning each note." It's intonation.
Fiddlers have to learn it the same way singers do.
Cheers,
Aaron Lord