Bodhran on Titanic -- authentic?
Ptbrady
a transatlantic flight, but we had more success in crossing than the original
ship did. The only problem was, that if you didn't like the movie, you couldn't
get up and leave the theater (as did a few people I know in a movie theater).
But, arguments about the merits of the picture aside, there was a scene in
steerage where there was Irish dancing, with what appeared to be a fiddle,
uillean pipes, and bodhran.
I thought the bodhran was modern to Ireland, introduced in, I think, the
1960s. But I really am not sure about this, and would appreciate enlightenment.
Thanks. Pete Brady
Cailín
before the '60s. IIRC, it was used for warfare and stuff. (Please correct
me if I'm wrong!! I'll not have misinformation hanging on my head) And
having been lurking there in Irish history, it's *possible* that it may have
been used in traditional Irish music before the '60s, but not probable - I
think. Anyone more self assured on this subject??
-Cailín
Lawrence E Mallette
: Good observation. Technically, the drum was around in Ireland for centuries
I have read that before O'Riada introduced the drum into his
chamber music concept of Irish music performance in the 60s,
it had limited usage, that it was used only in some parts of
Ireland, and then almost exclusively one day of the year,
(St. Stephen's day, as I recall) by the Wren boys, as an
accompaniment to their marching about the parish.
I have a recording, however, made in New York in 1927,
with Tom Morrison on flute and Jack Reynolds on
"tambourine". This is track 3 on "Irish Dance
Music", Topic Records TSCD602, 1995, a wonderful
compilation by Reg Hall of some of the early Irish
music 78 rpm recordings. Highly recommended.
This is a giant tambourine, not the usual 8 inch
version, and Reynolds is playing it like a bodhran,
beating out "a hypnotic tatoo" with his bare hands,
(read monotonous simple beat). Only at the end
of a section does he give the instrument a shake
to get the jingles, as if to mark the transition
to the next section.
This sure sounds a lot like a bodhran to me,
.... just leave off the jingles.
The liner notes say that "the tambourine has
an undocumented pedigree in rural Ireland".
It is known that Barrel Refferty played one
around Ballinakill, Co.Galway in the 1920s,
and that at least one Irish dance hall in
NYC in the 20s featured a tambourine player
as one of the four musicians in the band.
Sounds like large tambourines or bodhrans
were around back then, but not especially
popular except on special occasions. Sort
of like today.... ;-)=
ACooper213
and he said that the origin of the bodhran was a "wetch" (sp?) that was a
circular tray that was used to toss grain in the air. The chaff would blow
away, and the seeds drop back into the wetch. I know origins of anything are
murky, this made as much sense to me as anything. Any more enlightened
versions?
Tony aka: ACoop...@aol.com
Philip Whittaker
I am not sure if this is any help, but the earliest recording of Bodhran
playing I have if from 1967. It is - The Breeze from Erin, played by flute
player - Seamus Tansey. It is called a tambourine and has jingles on it as
well. There is also the Leader LP from of Seamus Tansey on which he
doubles tracks on "tambourine" - October 1967
Has anyone got anything on vinyl before this?
There is a mid sixties photo of a bodhran playing Sean o' Riada in the
Chieftans' biography by John Glatt. He is leading - Ceoltoiri Cuallan -
which preceded the Chieftains. He is holding what we would consider a
rather long double-ended beater.
Acording to the Chieftains "biography" the group's first player of this
instrument was an elderly player Davy Fallon from Westmeath who " used one
of the old style goat skin bodhrans with tambourine jingles around it and
Paddy ( Moloney ) had to convince him to tape up the jingles so that only
the drum could be heard." he played with his fingers.
So from this slim evidence I would suggest ;
- the instrument with jingles was around a long time - probably played
with fingers.
- in the sixties it was refined - especially with the jingles no longer
being a feature for most players
- the beater became the main way of playing it
Perhaps Sean O' Riada was responsible for the popularity of this
jingleless instrument and perhaps its name. He seems to have been
responsible for the re-introduction of Carolan's music into the tradition.
It would be nice to have some evidence from earlier recording or photos
Has anyone any evidence earlier than this?
Philip whittaker
--
--
Philip Whittaker
p...@argonet.co.uk
Lawrence E Mallette
: I am not sure if this is any help, but the earliest recording of Bodhran
: playing I have if from 1967. It is - The Breeze from Erin, played by flute
: player - Seamus Tansey. It is called a tambourine and has jingles on it as
: well. There is also the Leader LP from of Seamus Tansey on which he
: doubles tracks on "tambourine" - October 1967
: Has anyone got anything on vinyl before this?
See my previous post - pre-vinyl 78 rpm recording from 1927.
Dean Karres
The bodhran is a simple frame drum. *Every* culture on the planet has
streched a hide over a rim at some point and the Irish were no
exception. The bodhran or a similar device has been in existance for a
very long time. If nothing else, as a sea faring people the Irish could
easily have "imported" the concept of the frame drum at any time.
Using the drum for "trad" music prior to the 60's is also an easy thing
to consider. According to Paddy O'Brian [box player and holder of much
direct knowledge of at least two, if not three-four, generations of
old-time Irish musicians] he and his friends carried bodhrans and side
drums with them on St. Stevens Day celebrations as they went about as
"Wren Boys". They carried the drums to announce their arrival if
nothing else. This would have probably been in the 40's [my appologies
to Mr. O'Brian if that decade is too early or late]. Did he and his
contemporaries start the "Burying of the Wren" or create the bodhran out
of nothing? I think not.
The drum has been around a long time in one fashion or another. This is
"FOLK" music after all -- read that as music of the folks or music that
comes form you and me, not out of some educational institution or gaggle
of self-important, self-elected, trad-police. This music comes form the
people that live it, feel it, play it. The people that just want to sit
down and, to quote Mr. O'Brian, "Have a bit of a tune". Is it so far
fetched to think that tapping of the foot, pounding/tapping on a table
or thigh, clapping hands, even dancing [all percussive activities]
didn't happen? If a drum were present why not play it?
The music is the thing, not the instrumentation.
...end of Dean's pro-drum rant for today
--
Dean Karres | http://www2.southwind.net/~karres
kar...@southwind.net |
Southwind Internet Access | Programmer / Systems Administrator
Wichita, KS | <Troll 2nd Class /w Clusters>
Stephen C. Wehmeyer
Titanic:
First off, while it's fairly well known that O'Riada gave the Bodhran a "shove into the
spotlight" in the 1960's, he was certainly not the first person to incorporate this instrument into the
playing of Irish traditional music. The following quotes from Steafan Hannigan's _The Bodhran
Book_ [an excellent resource for beginners] offer the most concise info on the Bodhran's
background:
"The first [theory of origin] suggests that it [the Bodhran] was the development of a domestic
sieve or winnow... Looking at the first idea we find that in Ireland and indeed in other Celtic
countries -- Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man and parts of England -- the sieve or winnow was well
known. It was called a Wicht, Wecht, or Dallan and was in use up until the end of rural farming
methods at the beginning of the 1930's approximately. The Wecht was made by stretching a
sheepskin over a willow or ash branch split along it's length, bound in place by bark strips and
padded out by wool or grass. The wet skin was tucked in under itself, or lapped, holding tightly in
place once dry. The Wecht was held by this rim during use.
Seamus Tansey, a great flute player from Gurteen, Co. Sligo remembered that when he was
younger the Wecht was used to winnow grain and would be stored above the hearth... at evening
time people would go to a certain ceilidh house - usually an ordinary farmhouse nearby ... as the
musicians struck up the Wecht would be brought down from it's place above the hearth and struck
by hand in time to the music." (Hannigan 1991, p. 68)
"Sean O'Riada suggested in the Radio Eireann broadcasts of 1962 that; "until fairly recently
it [the Wecht/Bodhran] was still used for its primary purpose - separating wheat from chaff. Hence
perhaps its association with Harvest Festivals. In parts of Limerick and Clare it is still associated
with, and played on, Hallowe'en ... It is also associated with St. Stephen's Day, when the wren boys
parade, wearing straw costumes and playing flutes and Bodhrans." (Hannigan 1991, p. 69)
Hannigan goes on to tell us, among other things, that O'Riada was introduced to the Bodhran
during the early 1950's [according to some] when he saw an actor playing one on stage during a
performance of John B. Keane's "Sive." Hannigan acknowledges O'Riada's influence in increasing
the Bodhran's popularity... but there's plenty of evidence proving that he didn't originate the idea of
the Bodhran as a musical instrument.
Hannigan's Bodhran Book includes two telling photographs: One of an Irish Farmhouse c.
1905, which clearly shows the Wecht tucked under the farmer's arm; and another c. 1946 which
shows a young boy [possibly a wrenboy- but without the characteristic makeup] with a well made
Bodhran *and tipper.* His Bodhran has the skin tacked on, rather than tucked under the frame,
which suggests that it's not just an old Wecht he picked up to thump on...
The name "Bodhran" is often translated as "dull-sounding" or "deaf" [possibly "deafening"]
which is a direct reference to the SOUND, of the instrument. So we can be fairly certain that as
soon as people started calling it a Bodhran (rather than a Wecht) they were thinking of it as a
percussion instrument. I have yet to pin down the earliest use of the term Bodhran, but it certainly
pre-dates the 1960's probably by a long shot.
We should also remember that frame drums of any sort are among the oldest musical
instruments known to human kind (there are very few cultures that don't have some sort of a frame
drum, and we have depictions of them being played in antiquity throughout the Mediterranean,
northern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. We lack "hard" archaeological evidence of the
Bodhran's ancient ancestry in Ireland, probably because frames of wood and skin have a very, very
short lifespan (archaeological speaking) in cold, damp climates.
So was the Bodhran being played in 1912, and was it played on Titanic? Certainly the
festivals [Hallowe'en, and the Hunting of the Wren] at which the Bodhran is played were part of Irish
culture at the turn of the century. My feeling is that, since the Bodhran was intimately tied to rural
life, both as farm implement and musical instrument, it would certainly have been possible that one of
the immigrants sailing on Titanic took a Bodhran (with it's many nostalgic/cultural associations) along,
to help remember home and hearth... As to the playing style seen in the film (tipper rather than
hand)... if Titanic hadn't gone down, the tipper style would have become popular much earlier!
(although, as mentioned previously... the photographic evidence suggests that tippers were used prior
to O'Riada and Ceoltoiri Chualann).
There is absolutely no evidence that I can find that the Bodhran was ever used for "warfare"
as one participant commented here (except perhaps when it was played by thousands of Irish
football fans a few years ago in the stadium during the World Cup!). I think the idea of the Bodhran
as a war drum is probably a post 1960 SCA or Renn-faire invention... sorry to burst any bubbles
there...
Of course, you should probably take my arguments with a grain of salt... as the Bodhran
player who appeared in Titanic, I have a vested interest in supporting the presence of the Bodhran in
the film!
Slan,
Steve Wehmeyer
P.S. When we were down in Mexico filming Titanic, I tried to convince James
Cameron to include a shot of a battered, scorched Bodhran floating away from
the wreckage... unfortunately, he wasn't convinced :^>
______________________________________________________________________________
Stephen C. Wehmeyer (wre...@gaelicstorm.com)
Bodhran player for Gaelic Storm
"It's amazing how many interesting noises you
can make with a stick and a piece of dead goat..."
Cailín
Hello. :o) It'g great fun to see how many people post when you ask to be
corrected! *big grin* No, really though. Thanks for that bit of
information. No bubbles burst atall. I'm always learning. Thanks again.
Slán.
-Cailín
Michael D. Mcguire
I am not a bodhran player or an expert on Irish musical instruments. I
am a student of Irish music, though. I have information from a very
credible source.
Mi/chea/l O Su/illeabha/in is a lecturer at the University College,
Cork and a widely recognized scholar and performer of Irish music.
In his book, the Bodhran Tutor, he states that - as a folk instrument -
the bodhran was associated with at least three of the "occasions" of
the Irish folk year (St Brighid's Day, Bealtaine, and St Stephen's Day)
and that it SURVIVED (his word) into the 20th century most strongly in
connection with St Stephen's Day. Without more, it could have appeared
on the Titanic.
Michael McGuire
nfb...@prodigy.com
dt king
>Cailín (od...@voicenet.com) wrote:
>: Good observation. Technically, the drum was around in Ireland for
centuries
>: before the '60s. IIRC, it was used for warfare and stuff. (Please
correct
>: me if I'm wrong!! I'll not have misinformation hanging on my head) And
>: having been lurking there in Irish history, it's *possible* that it may
have
>: been used in traditional Irish music before the '60s, but not probable -
I
>: think. Anyone more self assured on this subject??
>
>I have read that before O'Riada introduced the drum into his
>chamber music concept of Irish music performance in the 60s,
>it had limited usage, that it was used only in some parts of
>Ireland, and then almost exclusively one day of the year,
>(St. Stephen's day, as I recall) by the Wren boys, as an
>accompaniment to their marching about the parish.
Reading all the great historical notes and references, I have to wonder --
are there no 60-year-old Irish folk musicians we could ask?
dtk
Joshua Mittleman
There is certainly evidence (as described here) that the bodhran was used
as a musical instrument at least as early as the beginning of the 20th
century. I believe I've actually seen a slightly earlier picture of an
ceili band with a bodhranist, but I can't swear to it. My understanding is
that the bodhran was a regional oddity -- from Donegal or perhaps Kerry? --
until the 1950s.
But the plausibility of the Titanic scene rests one another question, too:
Was Irish traditional music sufficient respectable at that time that it
could have been included as entertainment in such a fashionable venue?
===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
Bob Cameron
I had thew pleasure of attending a bodhran workshop a few years ago given
by Tommy Hayes ( about thirty bodhraners and 4 fiddles- now that was a
scary thought) Tommy showed us some regional bodhran styles- in Limerick,
apprently thyey used a huge tipper which they hels at one end, rather than
the duouble-ended wrie sttwist ing style most of i us are used to, while
in cork, they played with no tipper at all, using the thumb and fingers as
the ends of a tipper,but using the usual wrist motion. I suspect such
regional differences in style, if they do exist, suggest a longer
evolution process than just the last 40 years or so.
Joshua Mittleman
> I suspect such regional differences in style, if they do exist, suggest a
> longer evolution process than just the last 40 years or so.
Perhaps. On the other hand, I know of three separate styles which were
invented in the past twenty years, so I wouldn't be too confident about
that conclusion.
===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman mit...@panix.com
Lawrence E Mallette
: Reading all the great historical notes and references, I have to wonder --
: are there no 60-year-old Irish folk musicians we could ask?
Seamus Tansey (mentioned in this thread) is around that age,
but not on the net, as far as I know. If anyone in Co.Armagh
knows him to ask?......
Arthur & Jennifer Perry
>But the plausibility of the Titanic scene rests one another question, too:
>Was Irish traditional music sufficient respectable at that time that it
>could have been included as entertainment in such a fashionable venue?
My spouse is the expert on the Titanic history, but I believe the key is
that, in this scene in the movie, the music is being created by the 3rd
Class passengers on their own instruments, not by the Ship's orchestra or
crew. It seems plausible to me...
-Art
*remove numbers from email address to reply
Paul Little
Wehmeyer <wehm...@gaelicstorm.com> writes
>My feeling is that, since the Bodhran was intimately tied to rural
>life, both as farm implement and musical instrument, it would certainly have
>been possible that one of
>the immigrants sailing on Titanic took a Bodhran (with it's many
>nostalgic/cultural associations) along,
>to help remember home and hearth... As to the playing style seen in the film
>(tipper rather than
>hand)... if Titanic hadn't gone down, the tipper style would have become
>popular much earlier!
>(although, as mentioned previously... the photographic evidence suggests that
>tippers were used prior
>to O'Riada and Ceoltoiri Chualann).
So, Obviously the drums have been around for a while, not only in
Ireland.
The question now becomes how long the drum and tipper style of
playing been going and where has that originated.
(Incidentally does anyone still use the type of tipper with a (thumb?)
thong on one end and are there any good recorings of its effective
use today?)
--
Paul & Trudy
,__,
~~~(___}8:>
` ` Emily, Dorothy
,___,^, &
----(___ / Mary
` `
Lanna1
<>As to the playing style seen in the film
>>(tipper rather than
>>hand)... if Titanic hadn't gone down, the tipper style would have become
>>popular much earlier!
then Paul and Trudy wrote :
<>(Incidentally does anyone still use the type of tipper with a (thumb?)
>thong on one end and are there any good recorings of its effective
>use today?)
>
Dunno about that - but point of interest here - when I was at the All-ireland a
few years ago (96, actually) a guy in the bodhran competition competed sans
tipper, doing all the beating with his hand. The sound was definitely
different, but not ineffective. It was interesting.... And to make to the
All-Ireland doing that, through all the preliminaries, etc, some other people
(judges) must've thought it was pretty cool, too.
alana.
BodhranOne
different effect on the bodhran. However, I would add that the drum MUST be
mic'd through a good quality sound board and PA system in order to be heard.
http://members.aol.com/bodhranone
http://members.aol.com/nagagann
Regards,
Robin of Lyerly
Eric Root
wrote:
>I have found likewise that using the thumb and >knuckles can produce
quite a different effect >on the bodhran. However, I would add that the
>drum MUST be mic'd through a good quality >sound board and PA system in
order to be >heard.
Of, course, since they wouldn't have _had_ electronic PA systems on the
Titanic, the bodhran player would have had to to play into the
old-fashioned voice tube system, or an ear trumpet. Alternately, he
could attach a gramaphone bell like they were doing to some fiddles back
then. <8^)
-Eric
- Read more non-fiction?! I get enough _non-fiction_ in real life!
Lawrence E Mallette
: I have found likewise that using the thumb and knuckles can produce quite a
: different effect on the bodhran. However, I would add that the drum MUST be
: mic'd through a good quality sound board and PA system in order to be heard.
Naah.... That would spoil what otherwise would be a _perfect_ balance.
Paul Little
<mall...@bcm.tmc.edu> writes
A nicely balanced bodhran is usually one you only notice when it stops
except of course for those sweet moments when the whole session
cranks up a gear or three. IMHO of course........ (8>P)(%)//
_________________________
/_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _\
| [][][] Paul Little [][][] |
\_________________________/
JTRAX
>: mic'd through a good quality sound board and PA system in order >>to be
>>heard.
>
>Naah.... That would spoil what otherwise would be a _perfect_ balance.
.A nicely balanced bodhran is usually one you only notice when it. .stops
.except of course for those sweet moments when the whole .session
.cranks up a gear or three. IMHO of course.....
I saw Nomos play Wed night at Whelan's in Dublin, and there were a lot of
moments when it was cranked up a gear or three-but at all times Frank's bodhran
was nicely mic'd up and sitting right there in the mix with the fiddle and
concertina. That's a nicely balanced bodhran. He's a great player who was
playing as musically and intelligently as everyone alse on the stage, and his
contribution to the feel was critical, and you can tell he likes a good bit of
tone and some thump from the PA, and in his monitors.
Sounded great to me.
John Anthony
JT...@AOL.com
