Celtic-prog
Linda Dachtyl
Great band.....blew Black 47 AWAY!!!!(no offense, Tempest are just
SUPERIOR musicans.)
I really like Scandinavian prog also like White Willow, Anglagard,
Anecdoten and then of course Yes, Tull, ELP, etc..
Any other prog-Celtic types groups around other than Tempest?
Linda
James Chokey
> Anyone into Prog-rock here? I saw Tempest last year at an Irish fest.
> Great band.....blew Black 47 AWAY!!!!(no offense, Tempest are just
> SUPERIOR musicans.)
>
> [snip]
>
Hello Linda... what a surprise to see you over here on r.m.c.
as well as on r.m.p...
First things first... let me warn you that there will undoubtedly
be a number of bitter, angry, and sarcasm-filled posts thrown at you
by the likes of Sneerin' Janet Ryan, Royce Lerwick, and perhaps
a few other purists who will claim that Celtic rock dosn't exist
or that it can't possibly be played by folks who aren't 'natives'
to a Celtic country/region. Since you have committed the unholiest
of unholies in their eyes... naming an American band, you may
even get called a cultural imperialist-- or even a fascist! Don't
you feel lucky? :-)
Don't worry about it, though. The purists aren't in the
majority, they just shout the loudest. And their fangs couldn't
harm a fly-- they're just for show and bluster. I'll let
you in on a little secret... just throw a few facts back at them... or
ask them to provide some of their own, they'll go scurryin' for cover
like insects from under an overturned rock. If you're feelin'
mischievous, you can try to squash them as they're fleeing, but
they scatter in every which direction and even change their color
and shape so they no longer look like the same bugs at all... ;-)
Anyway, with that little intro out of the way, let's turn to
your question:
> Any other prog-Celtic types groups around other than Tempest?
Let me say, first of all, that there's recently been a fairly
lengthy discussion located in several threads of late mentioning
various Celtic rock bands, as well as discussing the genre of
Celtic rock more generally-- what it encompasses, how it might
be subdivided, etc. You may want to go into Deja News and look
up some some of the articles to have appeared here over the past
couple of weeks under the subject lines: "Celtic/rock fusion" and
"Traditional celtic/rock fusion". (And, no it's not fusion
as in Weather Report, Miles Davis, Return to Forever.... it's
talking about music that fuses both rock and Celtic traditional
music). Some of the posts are just lists of names of bands
followed by exclamation points, some are more theoretical/analytical
discussions of the problematics of Celtic rock as a whole,
some is just personal snipping and sniping, some are more
detailed description... there should be *something* in there
that you'd find interesting.
Of course, what you're looking for is not just 'Celtic rock'
but rather 'Celtic prog-rock'. That really adds another level
of complexity, confusion, and combining of already debatable
lables to the whole equation.... I'll try to give you some thoughts
and suggestions based on what I as a fellow prog fan who also
knows a bit about Celtic music (and Celtic rock in particular)
think you're asking for.
First the thoughts... then the suggestions.
Thought #1.... Not particularly relevant to the issue of
"Celtic prog", but since you mentioned musicianship as one
of the reasons why you preferred Tempest to Black 47, I feel
obliged to point out that performers of traditional Celtic
music are usually very accomplished players in terms
of sheer technical ability, of individual expressivity,
and terms of listening and tightness in ensemble playing.
This is largely due to the nature of the music itself...
a reel is not an easy thing to play, nor is a slow air
interesting unless the musician really can make his/her
instrument or voice convey distinctive and powerful emotion
and not just deliver the notes in the right sequence.
(Now, all this is not to say that the musicians are constantly
showing off, mind you or that it always sounds flashy... which
*is* part of the prog aesthetic IMHO. However, keep in
might what Robert Fripp himself said about the importance
of technique: "The reason you need to learn how to play difficult
music is so that the music doesn't sound difficult when you play
it.")
These musicianly skills, unsurprisingly, find their
way over into a lot of Celtic rock... a reel is no less
difficult to play properly with distortion than it is
without. For this reason, almost any Celtic rock
that endeavors to take on traditional tunes-- and/or to create
new tunes in traditional styles (reels, jigs, hornpipes,
slip-jigs, Breton dances, etc.)-- usually has a degree of musicianly
skill behind it much greater than you'll find in most Top-40
or AOR rock.. and oftenat least as much as you can find in other
kinds of prog. Add to this the fact that much Celtic traditional
music is instrumental, and you'll find that most musicians
who do the 'rock-n-reel' thing, will probably have enough
skill with their instruments to pass the scrutiny of most
prog fans' standards of musicianship. :-)
Thought #2.... Hmmm. though #2 is that if I take as much
time to outline my thoughts #2 and #3 as I did my Thought #1,
I won't get around to the suggestions before I start falling
asleep.... so let's postpone those for now.
The suggestions..... Keep in mind that these are suggestions
that I am making to you with the understanding that you're
coming at this stuff primarily from the perspective of a prog
rock fan... not necessarily someone who's seeking to understand
the finer nuances of traditional styles or get reccomendations
for the best traditional artists (at least, not yet). I make
this point so that the 'Tradition Purity Police' don't jump
all over me for mentioning some of the artists I do rather than,
say, telling you to ignore all this Celtic rock crap and
instead go buy a bunch of CDs by Kevin Burke, or Tri Yann,
or Mary Black, or _insert your favorite trad artist here_.
(Not that buying disks by any of the above would necessarily
be a bad idea, mind you...)
Anyway, here are a few artists who fall into the Celtic rock category
who might be of especial interest to a prog fan (note: many of
the entries below are edited comments of mine that have been
posted before):
Alan Stivell
Stivell is one of the pioneers of Celtic rock and
is credited with coining the very term. He's also been extremely
prolific, having released albums on a regular basis since 1970
or so to the present day. There's a lot of variety in his ouvre,
ranging from slightly psychedlic Celtic rock in the early years,
to fairly traditional folk, to dreamy 'new-agey' stuff, to elaborate
and experimental works (like Celtic Symphony) to a more '90's-sounding'
Celtic rock on recent albums (that includes explorations of techno
and even rap... well, sort of).. Personally, I think his early albums
are the best, although they're all kind of interesting in their
own right. A good place to start would probably be the 2-CD compilation
entitled "Zoom" that came out recently spanning his career. Also
the "Master Serie" compilation on Polygram France would give you an
*excellent* selection of his early material... including a few items
that were only on singles and aren't on any albums.
As for albums that would be of especial appeal to a proghead,
I'd have to single out _Before Landing_. I'd actually say that
some the material on it could easily be considered prog even
by prog-rock purists (like "Rouantelezh Breizh"). Not all of
the songs necessarily are 'proggish', nor are all of them 'Celtic'
(at least not in a purely musical way). The only real caveat
I have about this album is it's a concept album about the history
of Brittany and some of the romanticized visions of the past (say, o "The
Ancient Celts") and the nationalist politics (as on the song "Plinn-Slogan",
whose lyrics essentially consist of the words "Free Brittany" sung over
and over again in English, French, and Breton) can be a bit tough
to take. If you're looking for a more fanciful, quirky, and
elaboroate composition, you might give a listen to _Celtic Symphony_
That said, I still wouldn't say that either of those are among
his best albums. Any of his three live albums (_A l'Olympia_ (aka
_The Olympia Concert_, _E Dulenn_ (aka _Live in Dublin_), and
Tro Ar Bed: 3rd International Tour_ are terrific and definitely
show his more rocking side in a way that I think ought to appeal
greatly to a progger. The studio album, _Chemins de Terre_ is
also excellent. (And hell, Stivell even plays mellotron on it... and
you know the rules: If there's mellotron, it must be prog!) :-)
Wolfstone:
A Scottish folk-rock combo... with an emphasis on precise
playing and lush arrangments. Someone once described them
as Kansas meets Scottish folk. I don't know that I agree
with that comparison, but I can understand why someone would
make it (particularly if you listen to a song like "The Howl"
from _Unleashed_) or even "The Sea King" from _Year of the
Dog". They definitely strike me as Celtic rock that's
more likely to appeal to a progger than say, the Pogues,
or even early Boiled in Lead. They have a compilation disk out, which
might be a good place to start... and _Unchained_ and _Year
of the Dog_ are excellent studio albums. (Of course, nothing
recorded in the studio can possibly top this band's live
performances...)
Davey Spillane:
A great piper who used to be in Moving Hearts with Bill Whelan
(or Riverdance fame), but don't hold that against him. :-) (Actually,
Moving Hearts did some neat stuff...) Spillane's got a number of
terrific solo albums out, which include pieces which could arguably
be called "Celtic rock", "Celtic jazz-fusion", and occasionally
even "Celtic country/rock". Great, all-instrumental playing and creative
and innovative combinations of sounds... I'd definitely reccomend _Out of
the Sun_ or _Shadow Hunter_ to a prog fan interested in exploring
this stuff.
Dan Ar Braz:
Know best as being the guitarist for Alan Stivell and for
the French folk-rock ensemble Malicorne in the 70's (which,
incidentally was really led by Gabriel Yacoub who had also
played with Stivell). Ar Braz has a number of solo albums out. Some are
just plain singer-songwriter fol or instrumental guitar compositions,
without a particularly Celtic or rock sound. But a couple of his early
solo releases, most notably _Douar Nevez_ and _Allez Dire a la Ville_,
have a very neat and experimental comination of Celtic and rock styles
thatmight suit a proggers taste, should you be able to dig them up.
(Thank you, btw, Ken Josenhans for pointing me to Rockinworld
(http://www.rockinworld.com) as a source of these two.
Boiled in Lead:
Their album, _From the Ladle to the Grave_ was self described as
"Celtodelic world beat rock-n-reel". A poster I saw for one of their
concerts described them as "Irish folk punk metal with at twist".
Based out of Minneapolis, they started out playing kind of punky
versions of traditional Irish tunes-- their version of "Gypsy Rover"
from their second album really has to be heard to be believed... although
even then, they were capable of more delicate touches as well. Since
their origins, they've had numerous personnel changes and new
influences, expanding their repetoire to include American and
eastern European folk traditions-- although the Celtic tradition
has been their primary touchstone throughout. The band has
also refined itself quite a bit musically from the early albums
and its players are now quite accomplished musicians--
although they've never lost their grittiness or sense of humor
(as songs like "Puking in the Heather" or their almost metallish
version of "Newry Highwayman" show). Their recent compilation
_Alloy_ might be a good introduction to the band's many faces
and styles... but if you can't find it, I'd say pick up
_From the Ladle to the Grave_ or _Orb_ for an example of their
'middle period', and _Antler Dance_ as an example of their more
recent stuff after Adam Stempel joined the band. _Old Lead_ has
some great early stuff and tends more heavily to the Celtic
side of things than their later stuff (and is less impressive
in terms of musicianship), but I personally still find it very
enjoyable. (However, be sure to avoid _Songs from the Gypsy_
like the plague!)
Horslips:
Ireland's answer to Alan Stivell? Maybe, maybe not, but regardless,
these guys were certainly big-name pioneers of Celtic rock back
in the 70's. Not always as experimental or progressive as Stivell
could get (and not even always all that Celtic), but some of their
stuff like _To Drive the Cold Winter Away_, _The Belfast Gigs_,
and _The Tain_ are excellent rock-n-reel of the sort that you
should definintely give a listen to if you enjoy Tempest.
Loreena McKennitt:
Yeah, yeah, some folks claim she's more new-age than rock... other
folks lament she's becoming less and less Celtic w/ each
album. You'd be wise to ignore them all and give a listen yourself:
particularly to _The Visit_ and _The Mask and Mirror_... and even
to her new one, _The Book of Secrets_. (Don't let the fact that
a god-awful TV show has taken one of her tunes as its theme
music discourage you either.) She does some really neat and
exciting things on these albums, fusing Celtic (and yes,
a few other folk raditions, now and then) with both new-agey and
rock sounds. (Her early material, like _Elemental_, is
also very good, and may even be a bit more Celticky in a traditional
sense, but it's a bit less rocking.) Don't expect a great deal
in the way of flashy instrumental lines... the emphasis here is
more on atmosphere and lushness, but I'd still say it definitely
is worth a listen to a progger. As I've said on r.m.p. before,
"If Loreena McKennitt isn't prog-folk for the 90's, then I don't
know what is!"
Glaz:
A very nice contemp. Breton band, featuring a female vocalist.
I'm vaguely reminded of early Stivell, but with a bit more of
a 90's instrumentation. I strongly reccomend their one
album, _Holen Ar Bed/La sel de la Terre_
Kadwaladyr/Kad
A contemporary band on the Musea label (or at least their
first one, _The Last Hero_ was). To my ears, Kadwaladyr sounds
like, um, well, a lot like some of the less impressive French
neosymphonic 90's bands that have wound up on the Musea (Now, Cafeine,
Galaad, Versailles, etc.), but with some Celtic melodic 'seasonings'
(pipes, bombard, etc.) in the background. Not bad per se (although
the slap-bass gets a bit grating to my ears by the end of the first
song), but I had much higher hopes for this... particularly after
having heard that Dan Ar Braz played on the first album.
Camel:
Now, before you start scratching your head, let me say that Camel
is and always has been primarily a progressive rock band. However,
the most recent studio album, _Harbour of Tears_ is about Irish
immigration to America in the late 19th and early 20th centuries
and displays some appropriate influences, instruments and
melodies here and there. It's not rock-n-reel like Tempest
or Horslips by *any* means, and I'm not so sure I'd even call go so
far as to call it "Celtic rock," but for a prog fan, it might
be worth a listen.
Fairport Convention & Steeleye Span & Pentangle:
OK, so they draw they're musical influences from all over the
British isles (including England) and not just the Celtic regions--
and they're not always all that rockish.... but they are nonethless
sometimes labelled as pioneers of 'electrified folk' or 'prog folk'
or what have you. Neat stuff and definitely worth a listen,
particularly if you want to start working your way towards more
somewhat more traditional material and stylings. I think they all
have excellent compilation disks out which would be good intros,
although if you want an actual studio album I'd reccomend (from
Fairport): _Liege and Lief_ and _Unhaltbrickung_, (from Steeleye)
_A Parcel of Rogues_ and _Please to See the King_. Note: these
bands saw some of the *biggest* names in late 60's and 70's UK
folk and folk-rock, whatever: Burt Jansch, Dave Pegg, Sandy Denny,
Richard Thompson, Maddy Prior, John Renbourn, etc
Ack, I could go on, I'm sure, but it's getting late, and
I think that should give you enough to get started....
P.S. I've also heard excellent things about French bands
Gwerz and Gwendal in this regard (and I understand their
music has just been re-release on CD), although not having
heard it, I can't personally vouch for either its "Celticness"
or its "progressivity".
-- Jim C.
Now Playing: Steeleye Span, _A Parcel of Rogues_
==========================================================================
| James A. Chokey jch...@leland.stanford.edu |
| |
| 'Do you think that the sciences would ever have arisen and become |
| great if there had not been magicians, alchemists, astrologers, |
| and wizards who thirsted and hungered after hidden, forbidden |
| powers?' |
| -- Nietzsche |
==========================================================================
Nic Caciappo
> Any other prog-Celtic types groups around other than Tempest?
Iona (Of Ireland & UK). In James Chockey's reply I didn't see that he
even mentioned them. They are my favorite and probably more truely
"prog" than any Celtic group. You might also want to try Mike Oldfield's
Voyager CD as well as Jeff Johnson's Music of Celtic Legends: The Bard
and the Warrior (though this one is very mellow).
I have found some traditional music which reminds me of "progressive"
ideas, such as Galacian music, especially Milladoiro who are awesome! I
also recommend Norwegian fiddler Annbjorg Lien's "Prisme" CD on
Shanachie in the USA. Her boyfriend/keyboard player is a huge
Wakeman/Emerson fan too.
Good luck,
Nic
James Chokey
> Linda Dachtyl wrote:
>
> > Any other prog-Celtic types groups around other than Tempest?
>
> Iona (Of Ireland & UK). In James Chockey's reply I didn't see that he
> even mentioned them. They are my favorite and probably more truely
> "prog" than any Celtic group.
You know, right before I clicked the send button, I kept thinking
to myself, "Why do I get the feeling that I'm leaving something out
that I really ought to be mentioning." Well, Iona is a band I
defintely ought to have mentioned.
Now, they're definitely *not* a rock-n-reel style band that
that does traditional (or imitative) tunes in a rocked-up-style,
like Tempest or Boiled in Lead, or Stivell, or Horslips. They
fall more into the category of what I'd call "Celtic-seasoned
rock", where there are some traditional instruments, styings, and
flavors used to add a Celtic seasoning a dominantly rock dish.
But Nic is dead on in saying that they are more truly 'prog'
than any of the other bands I mentioned-- very much in the symphonic
style of prog a la Renaissance, but with with more of a 90's
sound on the instruments and the aforementioned Celtic seasonings.
Robert Fripp actually joins them on one of the tunes on _Journey
into the Morn_, btw.
Two small caveats though: (1) *Some* of their stuff isn't
all that proggish... the first 3-4 or songs on _JitM_ for example,
sound like very melodic and well done pop-rock tunes... although later
songs, like "Encircling" arequite clearly in the symphonic prog
camp. (2) Their lyrics are overtly Christian in their nature-- not
preachy, mind you, but rather psalm/hymnlike. which could, depending on
your own sensibilities be a plus, a minus, or completely irrelevant.
> I have found some traditional music which reminds me of "progressive"
> ideas, such as Galacian music, especially Milladoiro who are awesome!
Agreed... Milladoiro had some quite lush and elaborate arrangements,
and I've actually heard them referred to as 'chamber folk'... I don't
think it's an accident that they've been mentioned on r.m.p. before
or that a couple of prog mail-order dealers (Greg Walker, I think...,
and maybe Doug Larson_) have started including some of their older
stuff (that hasn't yet been released in the US) in their catalog.
No, it's not progressive rock by any means, but its an arrangment
of trad. Galician music that I think is likely to appeal to proggers.
-- Jim C.
Now Playing: Arcana, _Cantar de Procella_
Royce Lerwick
Chokey) wrote:
>In article <36EB5A...@earthlink.net>, nic...@earthlink.net wrote:
>
>> Linda Dachtyl wrote:
>>
>> > Any other prog-Celtic types groups around other than Tempest?
Odd, nobody's mentioned Talitha MacKenzie.
Royce