Old Gaelic Song
Craig Cockburn
> Yestre'en I saw a terruble TV programme called "Highlanders" narrated
> by Sean Connery.
> What a lot of old tripe it was.
>
Yes. The sort of stuff designed for the export market which they really
have a cheek showing here! The gap between Scottish export culture and
Scottish living culture grows wider.
> However, one of the interviewees mentioned "the oldest recorded song in
> Gaelic which is still sung"
>
> He didnae sing it, nor recite the Gaelic words, but translated it as:
>
>
> "This day, this day, this day has gone against us,
> This day and every day has gone against us"
>
>
Never heard of it!. Although there were many notables from the School
of Scottish Studies on the programme so I would assume that the facts
were right even if the presentation was rather shortbread-tin.
There was some good singing by Karen Matheson in the programme,
including "Mo run geal og" ( a song lamenting the death of a soldier at
Culloden) and "O mo dhuthaich" (An emigration song)
I always thought that the oldest Gaelic song still sung is Seathan
which we did at the Sabhal Mor Ostaig singing course last summer with
Christine Primrose. It is also in Carmina Gaedelica and on a Cathy-Anne
MacPhee album. I think it's 12-13th C or thereabouts (Seathan was the
son of the King of Ireland if this helps to put a maximum age on the
song).
--
Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
Morna.Findlay
by Sean Connery.
What a lot of old tripe it was.
However, one of the interviewees mentioned "the oldest recorded song in
Gaelic which is still sung"
He didnae sing it, nor recite the Gaelic words, but translated it as:
"This day, this day, this day has gone against us,
This day and every day has gone against us"
Now this is very romantic, IMHO.
Can anyone recognise this song and tell me more?
Thanks
M
--
Morna Findlay MAIL:mo...@dcs.ed.ac.uk
Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
Morna.Findlay
>In article <DCL5D...@dcs.ed.ac.uk> mo...@dcs.ed.ac.uk "Morna.Findlay" writes:
>
>>
>> This day and every day has gone against us"
>>
>>
>
>of Scottish Studies on the programme so I would assume that the facts
>were right even if the presentation was rather shortbread-tin.
Hmm - did you recognise the man who recited the lines? Was he from the
SoSS?
cheers
Craig Cockburn
> Hmm - did you recognise the man who recited the lines? Was he from the
> SoSS?
>
Yes, that was John MacInnes, an great expert on Gaelic culture. He's also
credited on a few Runrig albums, I believe he's the one who checks
their Gaelic. I'm fairly sure he's still at the school, if not then
he may be recently retired but will certainly be contactable through
the SoSS. I recognised the tune Karen was singing when he recited the
lines, it's "An t-Eilean mu thuath" on the Finlay MacNeill album "Fonn
is fuaran". She was singing:
An t-eilean mu thuath, an iomull a' chuain
An t-eilean 's an d'fhuair mi m'a\rach;
Far an d'fhuair mi 's mi o\g bainne fi\orghlan ri o\l,
'S bha m'anam tigh'nn beo\ 's a' fa\s leis.
This is certainly not the oldest Gaelic song in existence as the author,
John Macleod of North Tolsta died in 1911. It would have been nice if
she'd been singing the song John MacInnes was talking about!!
I'll ask on Gaelic-L about the song you mentioned.
Derick Thompson in his book "The Companion to Gaelic Scotland" (P78-79)
mentions about 40 non-classical songs date to pre 1601, including the
well known "Griogal Chridhe" (1570, on the Mac-talla album) and "Seathan"
(Cathy-Anne MacPhee has recorded this), Braighe Loch Eil, Is daor a
cheannaich mi 'n t-iasgach and Braighe Loch Eil (all on Isbhel MacAskill's
Sioda album) but none of these have words which fit.
Ewan Innes
the Hebrides on Market Street, Sandy Bells on Forest Road or
occassionally in the Royal Oak on Infirmary Street. If he's not there,
he'll be in the West End Hotel with the rest of Edinburgh's Gaelic
speaking population. Buy him a drink for me, he's a great man!!!
Ewan
Alba Saor no na Fasach
David Librik
>In article <DCMxv...@dcs.ed.ac.uk> mo...@dcs.ed.ac.uk "Morna.Findlay" writes:
>> Hmm - did you recognise the man who recited the lines? Was he from the
>> SoSS?
>Yes, that was John MacInnes, an great expert on Gaelic culture. He's also
>credited on a few Runrig albums, I believe he's the one who checks
>their Gaelic.
Checks their Gaelic?
What is the story on Runrig, anyway? I would assume they are native
speakers, but how fluent are they? Did they grow up in a strong Gaelic
environment or did they learn a lot of it later?
Between the language barrier and the enthusastic propaganda of
revivalists, it's hard to get a sense of just how Gaelic a native
Gaelic-speaker's world really is.
In comparison, I'd be surprised to find a Welsh pop band who
consulted anyone to check their Welsh.
- David Librik
lib...@cs.Berkeley.edu
Craig Cockburn
Sounds like a few of Hamish Henderson's haunts!
Craig Cockburn
> Checks their Gaelic?
>
> What is the story on Runrig, anyway? I would assume they are native
> speakers, but how fluent are they? Did they grow up in a strong Gaelic
> environment or did they learn a lot of it later?
>
The MacDonalds are the most fluent in the band I believe and Donnie (whom
I have talked with in Gaelic) is also "fluent", more fluent than me. However,
I am also "fluent" as I have a green card for the Mod. Defining fluency is
hard. The band grew up in the early 50s when many parents were fluent native
speakers but the environment was such that they didn't speak it much in
front of the children and it wasn't encouraged at school (to put it mildly!).
I suspect that it is a language which they could converse fluently in, but
when you are writing material which will be broadcast worldwide and used
by many learners I guess it pays to have someone check it over, even though
it's unlikely there will be errors. I think they have the biggest trouble
with idiom and images - I have heard one fluent native speaker say that
some of their early material (about the time they entered the Pan-Celtic
festival) had images which were simply English translated into Gaelic and
which sounded odd in Gaelic. Perhaps it is their search for good true
Gaelic rather than just fluent Gaelic which leads them to consult the
School. In my printed arrangement of Cearcall a' chuain for instance there
is a couple of minor modifications to what the band have written.
Karen Matheson is in a similar situation - conversationally fluent, but
perhaps uncomfortable speaking Gaelic extensively. I have seen her
talking Gaelic on the TV though and she did a pretty good job, but TV and
Radio and judicision use of editing can make even me seem fluent :-)
You're right about the Welsh pop band! Oh that Gaelic were in such a
position.
Colin Campbell
>However, one of the interviewees mentioned "the oldest recorded song in
>Gaelic which is still sung"
>
>He didnae sing it, nor recite the Gaelic words, but translated it as:
>
>
> "This day, this day, this day has gone against us,
> This day and every day has gone against us"
>
>
>Now this is very romantic, IMHO.
>
>Can anyone recognise this song and tell me more?
>
The song is a piobroch song called Piobaireachd Dhomhnaill Dhuibh
or the piobroch of Donald Dhu. Lyrics are,
The march of Black Donald, the march of Black donald,
Pipe and banner in the field of Inverlochy
To-day, to-day, the day went against us
To-day yesterday, every day went against us
The macIntoshes ran away, and didn't they run
The MacVuirichs ran away, but clan Donald remained.
The story behind it is that two parts of Clan Chattan, the
MacIntoshes and the MacPhersons (MacVurichs) had a quarrwl with
the MacDonalds of Keppoch but on the way to meet them in battle
they fell out attacked the MacDonalds separately and "retired
hurt". I don't think the song is very old (Donald was early 16th
century) but the tune probably is, possibly reaching back to the
middle ages, one of the "gathering" piobaireachd urlars that were
probably used to gather men in battle. Although the lyrics refer to
Clan Donald, the tune was associated with the Cameron pipers.
- In all not the romantic interpretation the TV program gave it
(surprise surprise), I think that as Craig suggested songs like
Seathan are older, and some of the Ossianic ballads if not of great
age suggest a long tradition.
Colin
Sua...@yahoo.com
> In article <DCL5D...@dcs.ed.ac.uk> mo...@dcs.ed.ac.uk "Morna.Findlay" writes:
>
> > by Sean Connery.
> > What a lot of old tripe it was.
> >
> have a cheek showing here! The gap between Scottish export culture and
> Scottish living culture grows wider.
>
> > Gaelic which is still sung"
> >
> > He didnae sing it, nor recite the Gaelic words, but translated it as:
> >
> >
> > "This day, this day, this day has gone against us,
> > This day and every day has gone against us"
> >
> >
>
> of Scottish Studies on the programme so I would assume that the facts
> were right even if the presentation was rather shortbread-tin.
>
> including "Mo run geal og" ( a song lamenting the death of a soldier at
> Culloden) and "O mo dhuthaich" (An emigration song)
>
> I always thought that the oldest Gaelic song still sung is Seathan
> which we did at the Sabhal Mor Ostaig singing course last summer with
> Christine Primrose. It is also in Carmina Gaedelica and on a Cathy-Anne
> MacPhee album. I think it's 12-13th C or thereabouts (Seathan was the
> son of the King of Ireland if this helps to put a maximum age on the
> song).
>
> Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
> Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.