What are jigs, reels etc??
Hugh S. Selsick
about the theory and history. What I was wondering is: what actually are
jigs, reels, hornpipes, strathspeys etc? Do they have a distinctive
structure or rythm? I've heard of the same tune being played in 2 different
formats - how does this work?
Any help would be appreciated.
Hugh
David Brown
> what actually are
> jigs, reels, hornpipes, strathspeys etc? Do they have a distinctive
> structure or rythm?>>
double jigs in 6/8, slip jigs in 9/8, reels, strathspeys and hornpipes
in duple meters and different tempos; some are easy to trace, like
the Scottish strathspey to a particular time and place, others,
like the jig, was once widespread across Europe and hence we are on
shaky ground assuming that since it has been so important as an Irish
dance that it originated there.
The structures of the tunes must match set dance formats.
Ever notice that airs, songs, planxties, etc.have such varying
structures? It's because they are not danced to and need not follow
the dance formats.
<<<I've heard of the same tune being played in 2 different
> formats - how does this work?>>
have at one point have deliberately played a jig as a reel, etc.
Perhaps an older melody became both a jig and a reel.....O'Neill speaks
a bit about this.Lark in the Morning has all the O'Neill books if you want
to read for yourself. Breathnach also addresses this.
David Brown
Kathryn Camfield
Hugh S. Selsick (127...@chiron.wits.ac.za) writes:
I just started taking Celtic flute lessons early on in the year, having
played classical for a long time.
In the reply to the original posting, someone mentioned a planxty but
didn't define it. Would you mind telling me what defines them?
Thanks in advance!
Kathryn
--
"In my mind, I see the land,
there's a footprint in the sand
and it's going to be mine!"
- the Muttonbirds
Philip Floyd
>Newsgroups: rec.music.celtic
>Path: newshost.uwo.ca!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ad353
>From: ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kathryn Camfield)
>Subject: Planxties (was Re: What are jigs, reels etc??)
>Message-ID: <D9yMv...@freenet.carleton.ca>
>Sender: ad...@freenet2.carleton.ca (Kathryn Camfield)
>Reply-To: ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Kathryn Camfield)
>Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
>References: <127hu...@chiron.wits.ac.za>
>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 13:59:41 GMT
>Lines: 17
>Thanks in advance!
I understand (with pretty good assurance) that a Planxty is an instrumental
piece, that is dedicated to a certain person, i.e. Planxty O'Connor, etc. The
Spanish (Flamenco) equivalent, I believe is "Homage De ........." Phil
Floyd/Tranby Croft. London, Ontario, Canada. See you at the Home County Folk
Festival.
arthur edelstein
1670-1738. The word has no actual meaning and may be made up by him. Only
a few of the more than 200 melodies he penned were actually called
Planxties but over the years more have been called planxties. They really
don't signify any specific type of melody or meter.
Art
Reel Lass
describing the different characteristics of jigs, reels, and hornpipe,
etc. It's directed at Scottish country dancers, but the content should
help you understand the differences between these music forms.
Lydia Hedges reviewed the material and this is a bit of what she said:
"THE MUSIC TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO"
That is what all of our teachers tell us. But how many of us actually
HEAR
what the music is telling us? Duncan Keppie has written this booklet and
recorded the accompanying tape to help DANCERS understand what they hear.
I read the booklet, then sat down to listen to the tape. It is
FANTASTIC!!!!!!! It describes the different types of strathspeys, reels
and
jigs - with musical examples on his accordion and claps and counts to help
you actually HEAR the beats.
1) You can contact Duncan Keppie directly by eMail :
dke...@fox.nstn.ns.ca
2) Or write to him by snail mail: D. Keppie, RR#3, Wolfville, N.S. Canada.
B0P 1X0
The price is $15 (Canadian) for the booklet and tape together.
Reel Lass ~~~ & :o)
DA Eger
the tunes from my own observations:
A jig is in 6/8 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 1 2 3 )
A reel is in 4/4 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 4)
or more often (1+ 2+ 3+ 4+)
A slip jig is a jig in 9/8 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3)
A slide is in 12/8 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3)
A hornpipe is in 4/4 time, but differs from a reel in several ways
which are not very clear to me. They seem to make frequent use of
triplets and dotted notes, sometimes giving the effect of 12/8 time.
You've probably already got a fair intuitive idea about waltzes and
marches. Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
Craig Cockburn
u3...@cc.keele.ac.uk "DA Eger" writes:
> You've probably already got a fair intuitive idea about waltzes and
> marches. Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
Strathspeys have a rhythm which fits "Liverpool Liverpool"
(two short syllables, one long)_
Reels fit a rhythm like "tum-te tum-te ta ta", like "Edinburgh is best"
(note to Americans: Edinburgh has 4 syllables)
--
Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
George Keith
In article <3sonqb$g...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> u3...@cc.keele.ac.uk (DA Eger) writes:
From: u3...@cc.keele.ac.uk (DA Eger)
Newsgroups: rec.music.celtic
Date: 27 Jun 1995 10:50:51 GMT
I don't know anything about the dances, but I can tell you what I know about
the tunes from my own observations:
[. . .]
A reel is in 4/4 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 4)
or more often (1+ 2+ 3+ 4+)
A hornpipe is in 4/4 time, but differs from a reel in several ways
which are not very clear to me. They seem to make frequent use of
triplets and dotted notes, sometimes giving the effect of 12/8 time.
A better way to explain it would be to think of reels as being in cut
(2/2) time, and hornpipes being in normal 4/4 time. Reels are
typically played pretty straight (not too much swing), whereas
hornpipes tend to be played as if each pair of notes was somewhere
between a dotted-eighth/sixteenth pair and a triplet eighth/sixteenth
pair, giving the tune a sense of "swing".
You've probably already got a fair intuitive idea about waltzes and
marches. Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
I started out thinging of strathspeys as hornpipes with the
occaisional dotted-eighth/sixteenth pair reversed (so it become
sixteenth/dotted-eighth instead). This is not really accurate in
reality, but it should be close enough for practical purposes.
A good way to recognize a strathspey is by the "scottish snap". Sort
of like this: "Dum-de dum-de DA-dum-de-da dum". (It'll be a miracle if
that is understood, but I can't think of a better way to type it).
--Georgi
--
---------------------------------------------------
George Keith Brown University
George...@brown.edu g...@cs.brown.edu
http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/gwk/
Colin Matheson
> A reel is in 4/4 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 4)
> or more often (1+ 2+ 3+ 4+)
I think it's true that reels (and hornpipes) are more commonly written
in 2/4.
> Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
The tend to be in (slow) 2/4, I guess, but there's a marked emphasis -
certainly the way the pipe bands approach them - on stressing the
beats as "strong-weak-medium-weak". The beat following the initial
strong stress is usually stretched, too.
Colin
--
Colin Matheson | Human Communication Research Centre
Phone: +44 131 650 4632 | University of Edinburgh
Fax: +44 131 650 4587 | 2 Buccleuch Place
Email: Colin.M...@ed.ac.uk | Edinburgh EH8 9LW Scotland
Jack Crowley
: I don't know anything about the dances, but I can tell you what I know about
: the tunes from my own observations:
Probably the most succinct answer I ever got for this question was "A jig
tune is a tune you play for dancing the jig, ... and so on."
The point being, the dances tend to dictate the tune structure. If you
watch dancers hop and twist through a hornpipe, you begin to see a reason
for the rhythm (especially for the little pause at 16 bars).
If you get a chance to play for dancers, or to observe good dance
musicians, you'll see the truth in this circular logic.
On the other hand, you'll see some fine soloists breaking all the rules,
playing hornpipes in reel time, even playing reels in jig time. Not a
good idea for session players or dance musicians, however.
Steve Pope
>> A reel is in 4/4 time, i.e 1 bar = (1 2 3 4)
>> or more often (1+ 2+ 3+ 4+)
>
> I think it's true that reels (and hornpipes) are more commonly written
> in 2/4.
>> Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
Near as I can tell, a strathspey is identical to a jig,
in terms of rhythm and meter, but is accented
differently.
Both are a fast 3-tempo, with a jig being evenly
accented and flowing, and a strathspey accenting
a group of three measures, with the accents being more
stacatto:
Jig: X x x X x x X x x X x x
Strathspey: X x x X x x X x x x x x
A similar accenting difference distinguishes reels, which
are evenly accented, from hornpipes. Both can be thought
of as being written in 2/4.
Reels: X x x x x x x x
X x x x X x x x
X x X x X x X x
Hornpipe: X x X x X x x x
None of these definitions are cast in stone however.
Steve
Cliff Moses
my comprehension, I'm afraid....I started out thinging of strathspeys
>occaisional dotted-eighth/sixteenth pair reversed (so it become
>sixteenth/dotted-eighth instead).
I've heard it said that a hornpipe is a reel with a broken leg.
And a Strathspey is a reel with two broken legs.
DA Eger
: In article <3sonqb$g...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>
: u3...@cc.keele.ac.uk "DA Eger" writes:
: > You've probably already got a fair intuitive idea about waltzes and
: > marches. Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
: Strathspeys have a rhythm which fits "Liverpool Liverpool"
: (two short syllables, one long)_
: Reels fit a rhythm like "tum-te tum-te ta ta", like "Edinburgh is best"
: (note to Americans: Edinburgh has 4 syllables)
It's a bloody shame we can't post musical notation here - for those who
understand it, anyway. Hey, wait a minute...
_____
| | | | |\
* * * * *
Well, it's all right if you know what it's supposed to be.
Marcus Turner-TVNZ
On Tue, 27 Jun 1995, Craig Cockburn wrote:
> In article <3sonqb$g...@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>
> u3...@cc.keele.ac.uk "DA Eger" writes:
>
> > You've probably already got a fair intuitive idea about waltzes and
> > marches. Strathspeys are beyond my comprehension, I'm afraid.
>
> Strathspeys have a rhythm which fits "Liverpool Liverpool"
> (two short syllables, one long)_
There may be something differing in the Caledonian speech rhythm, but I'd
pick "Liverpool Liverpool" as the rhythm of a jig. (In NZ we use "Wanaka
Wanaka".)
Perhaps a strathspey might be something like "WHO'S got it? HE'S got it.
No. Is it YOURS?"
>
> Reels fit a rhythm like "tum-te tum-te ta ta", like "Edinburgh is best"
> (note to Americans: Edinburgh has 4 syllables)
In NZ "Invercargill Invercargill"
>
>
> --
> Craig Cockburn (pronounced "coburn"), Edinburgh, Scotland
> Sgri\obh thugam 'sa Gha\idhlig ma 'se do thoil e.
>
>
Kia ora.
_...._
" " .__ . " . Marcus Turner mar...@earthlight.co.nz
" *.__ . ) o
" ~* . ~ o o o | P.O. Box 474
|@@\-------:--------=========================|* * * * ` . Dunedin
|@@/-------:------===========================|* * * * .' New Zealand
" __.* . " o o o |
". *~ .- . o
",. .____. " Phone +64 3 4799878 Fax +64 3 4799916
Paul M. Gifford
>In article <3ss6c3$j...@agate.berkeley.edu>
In U.S. tradition, the types of tunes you mention have changed. Some people
call square dance tunes in 6/8 time jigs, but are usually played slower than
Irish jigs. In New York & Michigan, "jig" used to be used to describe the
tune used for the third (and final) change in a square dance set, usually a
tune in 2/4 time. This same change in Ontario is usually called a
"breakdown." "Reel" and "hornpipe" are interchangeable, tunes in 2/4 time.
A "hornpipe" is affixed to one of a few long-standing tunes, such as "Durang's
Hornpipe" and "Fisher's Hornpipe." I have heard "Wilson's Clog" played by a
local traditional fiddler (in the Flint, MI area), but this is unusual.
So, even though there are standard "dictionary" descriptions of these terms,
the exact meaning and usage of these terms depends on the particular tradition
in question.
Paul Gifford
Dennis J. Gormley
->Steve Pope (s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu) wrote:
->
->: Near as I can tell, a strathspey is identical to a jig,
->: in terms of rhythm and meter, but is accented
->: differently.
->
->: Both are a fast 3-tempo, with a jig being evenly
->: accented and flowing, and a strathspey accenting
->: a group of three measures, with the accents being more
->: stacatto:
->
->: Jig: X x x X x x X x x X x x
->
->: Strathspey: X x x X x x X x x x x x
->
->[snip]
->: None of these definitions are cast in stone however.
->
->I should hope not. I would be interested in seeing someone
->dancing a strathspey or a fling to a triple meter.
->Strathspeys are in 4/4 time. A lot of the time there are
->some parts with sections of fancy triplets that I suppose
->could remind you of a jig, sort of. And the accents are very
->pronounced. Anyway, a strathspey is unique to Scottish
->music, or just plain weird, if you want to look at it that
->way. The best way to understand it, as with so many things,
->is to listen to a master (which I am not...yet! :-).
It alway seemed to me that the "triplets" in strathspeys (or in reels for tath
matter) consist of a three note pattern made up of two sixteenth notes and an
eight note. In the slide/jigs/hornpipes all three notes recieve equal time.
Dennis
Jay Cummings
: Near as I can tell, a strathspey is identical to a jig,
: in terms of rhythm and meter, but is accented
: differently.
: Both are a fast 3-tempo, with a jig being evenly
: accented and flowing, and a strathspey accenting
: a group of three measures, with the accents being more
: stacatto:
: Jig: X x x X x x X x x X x x
: Strathspey: X x x X x x X x x x x x
[snip]
: None of these definitions are cast in stone however.
I should hope not. I would be interested in seeing someone
dancing a strathspey or a fling to a triple meter.
Strathspeys are in 4/4 time. A lot of the time there are
some parts with sections of fancy triplets that I suppose
could remind you of a jig, sort of. And the accents are very
pronounced. Anyway, a strathspey is unique to Scottish
music, or just plain weird, if you want to look at it that
way. The best way to understand it, as with so many things,
Steve Pope
> Steve Pope (s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu) wrote:
>: Near as I can tell, a strathspey is identical to a jig,
>: in terms of rhythm and meter, but is accented
>: differently.
>
>: Both are a fast 3-tempo, with a jig being evenly
>: accented and flowing, and a strathspey accenting
>: a group of three measures, with the accents being more
>: stacatto:
>
>: Jig: X x x X x x X x x X x x
>
>: Strathspey: X x x X x x X x x x x x
> I would be interested in seeing someone
> dancing a strathspey or a fling to a triple meter.
> Strathspeys are in 4/4 time.
The Strathspey "Bog An Lochain" as performed and
recorded by Altan is definitely in 12/8 as I described above.
I am told by Those Experienced this is typical
for a Strathspey.
Please give me an example of a Strathspey that is
not in a 3-meter.
Steve
Craig Cockburn
s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu "Steve Pope" writes:
>
> A similar accenting difference distinguishes reels, which
> are evenly accented, from hornpipes. Both can be thought
> of as being written in 2/4.
>
My strathspeys seem to all be 4/4 with the reels mostly being 2/4. One
reel was marked as 4/4 though.
Robert Taggart
>Please give me an example of a Strathspey that is
>not in a 3-meter.
>Steve
Here is an excerpt from "The Clark Tinwhistle Handbook" by Bill Ochs,
concerning strathspeys:
"The strathspey is the type of tune that the Highland fling is danced to. It
is named for the district around the valley of the river Spey in Scotland. The
strathspey's distinct and spirited rhythm makes great use of the sixteenth
note followed by the dotted eighth, a figure sometimes called the "Scotch
snap". The feeling of this is best captured by the syllables duh-DEE."
Every strathspey in the handbook is written in 4/4 time. "Brochan Lom",
"Will you go to Sheriff Muir?", "Cutty's Wedding", and "Balmoral Castle", just
to name a few. A strathspey is always written in 4/4 time, but sounds as if it
were a triple meter because of the unique rhythm.
Rob
Steve Pope
> Every strathspey in the handbook is written in 4/4 time.
> "Brochan Lom", "Will you go to Sheriff Muir?", "Cutty's Wedding",
> and "Balmoral Castle", just to name a few. A strathspey is always
> written in 4/4 time, but sounds as if it were a triple meter
> because of the unique rhythm.
Gee... could this mean that they're in 12/8 like I suggested ?
Steve
John Ward
Sorry, the're not in 12/8. There is a tendency in traditional music to
play written dotted 8th - 16th notes as more like 8th - 16, so that it
sounds as if it is a triple pattern. Hornpipes, played slowly, share
this with strathspeys, as would slow reels, if the player plays 8th note
pairs in a lilting dotted rhythm. (The same tendency exists among
classical players also, but conductors will usually call them on it).
A strathspey is actually a type of reel which developed in the
valley (strath) of the river Spey area in Northeast Scotland. There are
several ways to play strathspeys. For the more formal Royal Scottish
Country Dance Society dances, the strathspey is played essentially in
two, but with a strong afterbeat on the second beat to lead into the next
measure. Since the music is written in 4/4, the basic rhythm for RSCDS
dancing would be ONE two THREE Four, with emphasis at least every other
measure on the Four. For Highland dancing, the playing is done in a
vigouorous four, and somewhat faster than the RSCDS tempo of
approximately 60 for the half-note. Highland would be somewhat faster
than 120 for the quarter-note. Cape Breton strathspeys are sometimes
slower and sometimes faster, but are usually in four beats to the bar. A
common pattern is to have a slow strathspey lead into a faster
strathspey, which gets faster until the players and dancers break into
reels, which are actually slower than the strathspey (in four) is at that
point.
Strathspeys can often be identified by the Scottish Snap rhythm,
usually notated as a 16th - dotten 8th, but played more like a 32nd -
double dotted 8th, which occurs at various times in the piece.
While strathspeys are in 4/4, not 12/8, I understand that
Scottish pipe band drummers often treat them as if they were in 12/8
because of the tendency to make dotted (dotten 8th - 16th) rhythms sound
as if they were some form of triplets. However, they are notated either
as regular dotted rhythms or as equal notes. Strathspeys often do have
triplets notated in them, and they are notated as triplets. They also
often have runs of 4 16th notes, and the two features are often found in
the same strathspeys. The feel of a strathspey is quite different from
that of a slide (an form of jig in 12/8) or of jigs, and the music should
be thought of as 4/4 or 2/2 which may have triple or quadriple rhythms,
not as a firm triplet rhythm as in a jig.
Hope this helps.
John, a Scottish fiddler in Maryland
lvm...@primenet.com
>From: John Ward <fid...@access2.digex.net>
>Subject: Re: What are jigs, reels etc??
>Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:38:08 -0400
This is probably the best practical explanation on how to play a strathspey
I've seen so far. My approach to the "Scottish Snap Rhythm" is to snap it as
much as humanly possible (ie, treat it like a grace note leading into the main
note). Too often people play it just like a triplet.
My $.02.
Joe Root
Robert Taggart
>> "Brochan Lom", "Will you go to Sheriff Muir?", "Cutty's Wedding",
>> and "Balmoral Castle", just to name a few. A strathspey is always
>> written in 4/4 time, but sounds as if it were a triple meter
>> because of the unique rhythm.
>Gee... could this mean that they're in 12/8 like I suggested ?
No. It means what it says. 4/4 time sounding like 12/8 time.
Rob
Steve Pope
>> Gee... could this mean that they're in 12/8 like I suggested ?
> No. It means what it says. 4/4 time sounding like 12/8 time.
Well Robert,
I'm now convinced that Strathspeys are (a) always in 4/4 and
(b) traditionally notated in 4/4, 8/8, or 16/16. However,
if the tune itself contains more triples than anything else,
it is still correct to say it's in 12/8 regardless of how
it might be notated.
I can notate a perfect waltz in 4/4 ... doesn't make it
not a waltz, and it doesn't make it not in 3/4 as far as both players
and listeners could discern.
I think John's explanation, and also Elton's, on this
thread are very useful. The implication is that some
(most?) of the triple figures are degenerate forms of more
complicated rhythms, and that these original rhythms are
closer to a 4-meter. This would explain the discrepancy.
Steve
Pgmulvaney
bits, for the nerdy among us...)
Jigs: go "buffalo, buffalo". Slip jigs are in groups of three buffaloes
before
a breath or bowstroke (or the eqivalent, generally) Slides are uptempo
Kerry
jigs--often with snapped rythms (see below)
Reels: go "logarithm, logarithm" (which is probably the best use many of
us
have for that particularly interesting mathematical concept--but come to
think, when was the last time I used a buffalo?!)
Hornpipes: Choc-o-late chips and Mint milanos! Choc-o-late chips and Mint
milanos! (This reference will make the most sense to chocoholic Yanks.
Happy Fourth and pass the Godivas...) Hornpipes should swing (even) more
than reels (though at least once a generation, the usual preferred tempo
seems to change from bluesy slow to quick and ragtimelike. There are
dance forms for both tempos, but the session culture seems to have its own
mind...)
Polkas--quick punk reels:
Shave-and-a-haircut-Shave-and-a-haircut-Shave-and-a-haircut-(gasp)twobits.
Can you say "adreneline"?
Strathpeys (a Scots form from the Spey valley)--similar to hornpipes but
for the "snap"--in which one note "steals" half the time value from the
next.
Instead of dum-dum-dum-dum you get dummmm-dih dummmmm-dih (and sometimes
the other way dih-dummmmmm). Sort of like "Dragnet", but not necessarily
in and for the county of Los Angeles.
Airs--pure magic, if that term means anything. Airs may be expressed in
waltzlike 3/4 but that won't do them justice, despite the hisorical
reasons
for waltzifying them. Airs are more like free jazz, slow (but not too
slow, as that windhamizes them!) and abstract (to my poor anglophonic
ears) and
mindstoppingly beautiful. Pure melody, pure heart, pure music. Your feet
cannot dance to an air, but your flying soul must. They are the most
difficult
form to master.
Anyway, I'm not an expert (experts abound, but this is the music of
farmers and not of musicoligists or critics. I'm not a farmer or an
academic, but that
is the way it sounds to me. As I enjoy both eating and thinking, I am
glad of
a world which includes all the above...<grn>). Just my H.O.
Dennis J. Gormley
It is a hallmark of the Irish and Scottish fiddle repetoire that any group of
three notes played in one beat are called a triplet. This means that
* * *
| | |
------
as played in a jig or a hornpipe is called a triplet. At the same time this
* * *
|_| |
------
as played in a reel or strathspay is also called a triplet.
Those with classical training have a different definition of a triplet. They
say that a triplet is three notes, played evenly in the time it takes to play
two notes of the same time value. So in a 4/4 tune, an eighth note triplet
would consist of three notes, each receiving the same amount of time, and
played in the same time as two eighth notes.
The folk nomenclature does not allow for the differentiation between three
notes of equal value (i.e., the three eighth notes in a jig or hornpipe) and
three notes of unequal value (i.e., the two sixteenth and eighth note figures
in a reel or strathspey.) This is one of the reasons that oftimes classical
players "don't get it"; they read the notes on the page, not realizing that the
printed material means different things in the folk "dialect". It's also one
of the reasons that learning a tune from printed music is always a distant
second choice behind learning it by ear from a tape, recording, or another
player.
In a previous article, s...@bob.eecs.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) wrote:
->rtag...@sadira.nrao.edu (Robert Taggart) writes:
->
->>> Gee... could this mean that they're in 12/8 like I suggested ?
->
->> No. It means what it says. 4/4 time sounding like 12/8 time.
->
->Well Robert,
->
->I'm now convinced that Strathspeys are (a) always in 4/4 and
->(b) traditionally notated in 4/4, 8/8, or 16/16. However,
->if the tune itself contains more triples than anything else,
->it is still correct to say it's in 12/8 regardless of how
->it might be notated.
->
->I can notate a perfect waltz in 4/4 ... doesn't make it
->not a waltz, and it doesn't make it not in 3/4 as far as both players
->and listeners could discern.
->
->I think John's explanation, and also Elton's, on this
->thread are very useful. The implication is that some
->(most?) of the triple figures are degenerate forms of more
->complicated rhythms, and that these original rhythms are
->closer to a 4-meter. This would explain the discrepancy.
->
->Steve
ghost
In article <3t6epa$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> pgmul...@aol.com (Pgmulvaney) writes:
>Jigs: go "buffalo, buffalo" . Slip jigs are in groups of three buffaloes
>before a breath or bowstroke (or the eqivalent, generally)
Slides are uptempo Kerry jigs--often with snapped rythms (see below)
>Reels: go "logarithm, logarithm"
>Hornpipes: Choc-o-late chips and Mint milanos! Choc-o-late chips and Mint
>milanos! (This reference will make the most sense to chocoholic Yanks.
>Happy Fourth and pass the Godivas...) Hornpipes should swing (even) more
>Polkas--quick punk reels:
>Shave-and-a-haircut-Shave-and-a-haircut-Shave-and-a-haircut-(gasp)twobits.
>Strathpeys
>Instead of dum-dum-dum-dum you get dummmm-dih dummmmm-dih (and sometimes
>the other way dih-dummmmmm). Sort of like "Dragnet", but not necessarily
>in and for the county of Los Angeles.
>Airs--pure magic, if that term means anything. Airs may be expressed in
>waltzlike 3/4 but that won't do them justice, despite the hisorical
>reasons
>for waltzifying them. Airs are more like free jazz, slow (but not too
>slow, as that windhamizes them!) and abstract (to my poor anglophonic
>ears) and
And have in common with with blues singing & cantorial chanting
that tendency to repeat a particularly heartbreaking segment
(with airs, as opposed to the other 2, its usually a long segment)
over & over in immediate succession until the player is through with it;
this is the one characteristic that gets lost in translation when people
try to play them as structurally tight tunes instead of keeping them
airs. I've done it myself trying to hum the damn things; I turn them
into tunes. If words have been put to something there's the tendency *not*
to want to do those long, long repeats.
Shocko68
than have a set way of playing it. It comes-off more natural. Besides
not all jigs, reels, hornpipe, polka ect. are played alike(and not all
musicians play the same tune the same way, they may pause here or there at
times.) PLAY WITH FEELING!
Thats the bodhran players advice.
Joe Shelby
>The Strathspey "Bog An Lochain" as performed and
>recorded by Altan is definitely in 12/8 as I described above.
>I am told by Those Experienced this is typical
>for a Strathspey.
>
>not in a 3-meter.
the song "Isla Waters" from Silly Wizard's "Caledonia's Hardy Sons"
is in Strathspey form, but the grace notes fit more like a leading
16th than a leading triplet-8th. I've danced to others, but i
don't know most of their names, for example the tune selection for
"Seann Truibas Willichan" on the Terpischore disk of "Scottish
Country Dance Music" contains tunes that don't fit the triplet
pattern as well (but i don't have the liner notes with me so
i can't give their individual names)...
joe
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Richard Robinson
> >> Every strathspey in the handbook is written in 4/4 time.
> >> "Brochan Lom", "Will you go to Sheriff Muir?", "Cutty's Wedding",
> >> and "Balmoral Castle", just to name a few. A strathspey is always
> >> written in 4/4 time, but sounds as if it were a triple meter
> >> because of the unique rhythm.
>
>
To get pedantic, this isn't a discussion of what time they "are in",
it's a discussion of how best to *represent* that time on paper, and
think of it.
Many strathspeys contain both duple and triple rhythms ... one common
pattern seems to be that, of an 8-bar section, the first 6 will have a
"dotted quaver + semiquaver" pattern, where the beat is divided into 4,
and the long notes are 3 times the length of the short notes.
The ending 2 bars then uses triplets, in the sense of dividing each main
beat into 3.
Most people find it easier to read crotchet triplets in 4/4 than ...
umm.. whatever you'd have to write to put the 3+1 groups into 12/8.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK ric...@beulah.demon.co.uk
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
John Ward
On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Richard Robinson wrote:
(snip)
>
> To get pedantic, this isn't a discussion of what time they "are in",
> it's a discussion of how best to *represent* that time on paper, and
> think of it.
>
> Many strathspeys contain both duple and triple rhythms ... one common
> pattern seems to be that, of an 8-bar section, the first 6 will have a
> "dotted quaver + semiquaver" pattern, where the beat is divided into 4,
> and the long notes are 3 times the length of the short notes.
> The ending 2 bars then uses triplets, in the sense of dividing each main
> beat into 3.
>
> Most people find it easier to read crotchet triplets in 4/4 than ...
> umm.. whatever you'd have to write to put the 3+1 groups into 12/8.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard Robinson, Leeds, UK ric...@beulah.demon.co.uk
> "The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem
>
>
Strathspeys are vary varied in their patterns, having as their most
common characteristic feature the use of the "scottish snap", usually
notated as a 16th-dotted 8th, but played more like a 32nd-double dotted
8th.
I'm looking at a typical strathspey, the "Lime Hill" by Dar R.
MacDonald of Cape Breton Island. The rhythmic plot of this strathspey,
by measure and beat is as follows (where ss = scottish snap, dt = normal
dotted rhythm of dotted 8th-16th; 1/4 = quarter note; 1/8 = 8th note; 3 =
triplet, and 4 = four 16th notes):
Pickup measure to part A - 1/8;
Measure 1 - ss; dt; ss; dt.
Measure 2 - ss; dt; 1/4; dt.
Measure 3 - dt; ss; dt; ss.
Measure 4 - ss; dt; 1/4; ss.
Measure 5 - ss; dt; ss; dt.
Measure 6 - ss; dt; 1/4; dt.
Measure 7 - dt; ss; dt; ss.
Measure 8 - ss; dt; 1/4; 1/8.
Pickup measure to B part - 1/8.
Measure 9 - ss; dt; dt; dt.
Measure 10 - ss; dt; 1/4; ss.
Measure 10 - ss; dt; dt; 4.
Measure 11 - ss; dt; 1/4; ss.
Measure 12 - ss; dt; 1/4; ss.
Measure 13 - ss; dt; ss; dt.
Measure 14 - ss; dt; 1/4; dt.
Measure 15 - 3; 3; 3; 3.
Measure 16 - ss; dt; 1/4; 1/8.
Of the 16 measures, only measure 9 and measure 15 might really sound as
if played in 12/8. The basic sound of a strathspey is a lilting 4.
Pipe band drummers will use a basic 12/8 rhythm simply because it fits
the lilting 4 of the strathspey.
John, a Scottish fiddler from Maryland.
Strathspey - it's a Scottish thing, you wouldn't understand.
TomColeman
upon and to refer to youself as "a fiddler from Maryland" is extremely
modest. TJC