Good voice for bossa nova?
nono
nova.
wondering what they mean by that.
what qualifies for a good voice? is it a certain range or quality in
their voice?
as one who sings bossa nova, im interested in finding out.
thanks in advance
n
Daniella Thompson
of João Gilberto.
--
Daniella
_______
Daniella Thompson on Brazil:
The Magazine of
Brazilian Music & Culture
http://daniv.blogspot.com
Musica Brasiliensis
http://daniellathompson.com.
Gerry
[ It occurs to me that I assume the original poser was female, but
don't really know. Anyway, that's the approach I took and it works
relative to topic anyway. ]
> I've heard people say they or so-and-so has a good voice for bossa
> nova.
> wondering what they mean by that.
Ask them.
> what qualifies for a good voice? is it a certain range or quality in
> their voice?
It means what you like. Various styles and settings demand various
qualities. Bossa melodies can be quite complex, with significant and
quick interval skips. So the ability to easily nail a note rather than
endlessly singing a note and then sliding up or down to where the note
actual lives: that's important. Think Cher: she never hits a note but
slides endlessly up to the note. A useful technique especially for jazz
and blues, but also a ubiquitous cloak for inability.
Other important considerations: A clear tone, not a raspy damaged
gargle. Alcione's "damage" doesn't count, because her phrasing,
precision and "sell" dominate all.
As Daniella points out with Joao, an "intimate caressing tone" is
certainly good and *because* of Joao's historic location and his very
long shadow, it has become stylistically iconic. Incidentally he is no
stranger to this "sliding" approach, and that is one of the things that
makes his singing intimate. On the other hand he doesn't always do it,
and you'll find on fast pieces that he abandons it where lesser
vocalists cannot.
Joao provides no real diaphragm support. He is a "throat singer",
making no significant use of chest-resonance or his diaphragm to "push"
the tone through with even dynamics. Many females must use diagragm
support and chest resonance however, because throat-singing by women
has much less inherent tonal quality, I assume because of their
physical structure and size. A man can more easily sound "intimate and
personal"; think of a quiet Sinatra performance for example.
But most women lose their color and tone if slumped over singing this
way. Peggy Lee is someone who sings with no support, and little
accuracy and so she sounds like shit 95% of the time. When doesn't she
sound like shit? When the tune is all drama and is about delivery and
phrasing. Like a real tear-jerking piece about a booze-hound in the
gutter, for instance: That's a real Peggy Lee "vehicle". Julie London
did most of her material with scant support, but then, for whatever
reason, she manages to have a fair amount of tone and she has very good
pitch control, where this too is one of Ms Lee's many failings.
Some people think that Asturd Gilberto is a singer, too. She is
certainly as cute as Julie London and Peggy Lee before Ms. Lee was
embalmed at age 40 or something. I don't have kind things to say about
Asturd, but have difficulties knowing where my own personal, cultural
and musical markers are in my analysis so won't touch on that.
As to who is a "good" female bossa vocalist, it becomes a matter of
personal choice. Early in Bossa's history we had vocalists from the
Samba-Cancao styles, with heavy influence from Latin American styles,
like Cuban bolero ballads. They were doubtless influenced by such as
Piaf I'd imagine. These singers have not only a great deal of support
and projection, but some might argue they are overly dramatic and
downright bombastic. Me; I Iove them for their dynamics and range.
"Stylistically appropriate"? Tough to say they are; bossa was very
young, and this was not the style that would survive long. But in
someone like Leny Andrade some of this lives on. Admittedly Leny can't
be considered ground-zero of bossa singing.
Rossa Passos I think hits very close to the sweet spot. But I weary of
her voice after only a few songs. She has a certain predictability, or
lack of distinction in her delivery from piece to piece. But she is
truly endearing. I'm always surprised when I hear Marina Lima, she has
her failings but she has a great deal of interpretive ability.
Elizeth Cardoso, Joyce, Nara Leao, Leila Pinheiro, Zizi Possi: Al lthe
earlier and later women vocalists of Brazil have had occasion to take
their shot at straight-up-the-middle bossa. And they all have their own
approaches. The best ones do it their own way and separate themselves
from others. Within certain tolerances, it can be better to have
personality than precision.
In reviewing a bunch of them just now I realize that my dictum
involving sliding into pitch can be a weapon with which I might assult
my own statements. Brazilians are noteworthy, singular really, in the
way they treat pitch. I've heard endlessly from Unitedstatesian
musicians that Brazilians sing flat. I think they do tend in that
direction during moments of speed or exuberance, but there is something
decidely Brazilian about this that doesn't necessarily detract from the
music. In the way a musician or vocalists can play just a little
"behind" the beat and in the process give an interpretation a certain
intimacy, "naturalness", or "conversational quality"--this too can be
applied to pitch, though with much more refined delicacy. A rigid
adherence to pitch and timing will make one sound operatic and
mechanical. Normally we don't harp about the time (in the US) the way
we do about pitch. I think Brazilians put them both in the same kettle
for pesonal application or disregard.
So in reviewing some of the names above I realize they have varying
levels of ability in this regard. To grab myself, again, by my hair for
a good drubbing I could argue with me about my unending loathing for
Asturd and my forgiving nature with Nara. Exactly why do I apply
different rules to similar singers? Well, um... er...
Ah... I'm weak.
> as one who sings bossa nova, im interested in finding out.
Listen to many many more recordings of different artists. Even the
ones you don't like will be educational.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
patskywriter
singing. you know your stuff. although i understand your loathing of
asTRUD gilberto, i certainly don't share it. i read that she was
"just" a housewife who happened to know some english, so she got to
participate in (and get undue credit for) the historic "girl from
ipanema" recording. (to this day, i still wonder if she speaks german,
b/c to me her accent sounds german, not brasilian, at least in her
early recordings.) she's definitely not a "real" singer, but that has
never stopped me from enjoying her music. (it always helps to be
surrounded by superior musicians.) my 2 favorite albums by her are
"beach samba" (hubert laws flute solos! gershwinesque arrangements by
deodato!) and gilberto with turrentine, which has got to be one of the
most bizarre musical pairings in recent history.
if you're of student of bossa nova singing, i'm guessing that it would
be a good idea to learn what audiences like about it -- from what i
gather, they like the "simplicity" and "honesty" of certain singers'
presentations. that's true for me too, although one thing that i
really enjoy is how good singers play with time. i love listening to
joao gilberto and chaka khan back to back. i know chaka khan is loud
as all get-out, but what she shares with gilberto is her playfulness
with time. both will dart ahead of the song, then hang back, then
tiptoe ahead -- try singing along and you'll see what i mean. gilberto
is a bit more predictable, but when he's in playful mode, he's a real
delight.
DJ piddipat
mark dinan
Joao & Astrud Gilberto, maybe Nara Leao being the exceptions -- who
would fall into the purely "Bossa" genre. Most of the great singers
from Brazil sing samba, MPB, choro, and bossa. When I think of Bossa,
I think of Joao Gilberto - a haunting, vibrato-less tone reminiscent
of Miles Davis' trumpet playing and Chet Baker's singing. Elis Regina,
perhaps the best known MPB/Bossa vocalist, is completely different and
has a passionate, dynamic voice. Were I to list my favorite Brazilian
singers who have sang bossa nova at some point in their career (in no
particular order, but Joao Gilberto would always be first):
1) Joao Gilberto
2) Elis Regina
2a) Nara Leao
3) Antonio Carlos Jobim (He sang! Played piano! Wrote tunes!)
3) Rosa Passos
4) Maria Bethania
5) Elizeth Cardosa
6) Gal Costa
7) Leny Andrade (Great duet album w/ Romero Lubambo)
8) Luciana Souza
9) Paula Morelenbaum
10) Wanda Sa
11) Emilio Santiago
12) Joyce
Lots of radically different types of voices, all of them good in their
own way.
Mark
Wei Wei
nono
I really like replies that aren't just wishy-washy but are technical
as well.
I have read the replies and have been thinking and applying them.
still haven't made any final conclusions.
> It means what you like. Various styles and settings demand various
> qualities. Bossa melodies can be quite complex, with significant and
> quick interval skips. So the ability to easily nail a note rather than
> endlessly singing a note and then sliding up or down to where the note
> actual lives: that's important. Think Cher: she never hits a note but
> slides endlessly up to the note. A useful technique especially for jazz
> and blues, but also a ubiquitous cloak for inability.
i think some bossa melodies CAN be complex. i think its the same for
any jazz standards, some go up scalarly and some are quite complex in
that they have intervallic leaps. On those, i definitely have to
practice with my 'lalalala's' before i attach any lyrics to them when
i sing. A good ear is invaluable.
i agree when you slide, its a form of cheating when you do it not for
effect but for incompetence.
>
> Other important considerations: A clear tone, not a raspy damaged
> gargle. Alcione's "damage" doesn't count, because her phrasing,
> precision and "sell" dominate all.
i heard gilberto's voice is kinda of harsh. i dont agree with it.
> Joao provides no real diaphragm support. He is a "throat singer",
> making no significant use of chest-resonance or his diaphragm to "push"
> the tone through with even dynamics. Many females must use diagragm
> support and chest resonance however, because throat-singing by women
> has much less inherent tonal quality, I assume because of their
> physical structure and size. A man can more easily sound "intimate and
> personal"; think of a quiet Sinatra performance for example.
To me bossa is joao gilberto's voice, vinicius's poetry, and jobim's
melodies and harmony. i know there are other musicians with their
styles like baden powell, caymmi, etc but for me bossa are these three
guys.
i have heard that Joao's voice isn't the greatest. i didn't know he is
a throat singer. this is new and interesting. everytime i have seen
him sing it's with a microphone so maybe he doesn't really need to
project his voice. i know when i play its really soft and low without
any mic support.
as for dynamics, i havent really notice gilberto use dynamics, it
seems he stays clear from wide dynamic shifts. maybe this is a reason
he doesn't need any diaphragm support.
ofcourse he has inflections in his singing, its impossible not to
otherwise you will sound like a monotonous drone.
> In reviewing a bunch of them just now I realize that my dictum
> involving sliding into pitch can be a weapon with which I might assult
> my own statements. Brazilians are noteworthy, singular really, in the
> way they treat pitch. I've heard endlessly from Unitedstatesian
> musicians that Brazilians sing flat. I think they do tend in that
> direction during moments of speed or exuberance, but there is something
> decidely Brazilian about this that doesn't necessarily detract from the
> music. In the way a musician or vocalists can play just a little
> "behind" the beat and in the process give an interpretation a certain
> intimacy, "naturalness", or "conversational quality"--this too can be
> applied to pitch, though with much more refined delicacy. A rigid
> adherence to pitch and timing will make one sound operatic and
> mechanical. Normally we don't harp about the time (in the US) the way
> we do about pitch. I think Brazilians put them both in the same kettle
> for pesonal application or disregard.
interesting. i still can't picture this in my head without an audible
example. anyone?
Mark's comment:
Joao Gilberto - a haunting, vibrato-less tone reminiscent
of Miles Davis' trumpet playing and Chet Baker's singing
this too is interesting. i never noted gilberto's lack of vibrato. i
myself sing most bossa standards with vibrato on sustained notes by
choice. i think it adds interest. i'll try singing without vibrato
next time(this too is hard to do as well) .
and thanks also mark for commenting that there are different voices
and different ways of singing bossa. i think, like me, people have one
type in mind or one in preference but its true bossa can be sung in
many ways like everything else. my preference would definitely for the
hush-speakeasy softness of joao gilberto.
and i disagree with the comments on Astrud. her voice is pretty and
perhaps she's not a great singer, but then again neither is joao. then
again neither is louis armstrong, or fred astaire or tom waits, but
their voice suit what they sing and they have a particularity with
their voice. and on strength of that, they have made an indelible
mark.
After all, I can't think of anyone else singing girl from ipanema but
astrud gilberto.
i think as long as you sing the notes in pitch, with a good rhythm and
add something special to the sauce, you're ok in my book. Good
technique such as dynamics, vibrato, scatting, is great flavor but the
basics is whats essential.
Gerry
Mark Dinan's quote of it in his response:
On Aug 27, 8:24 am, patskywriter <patskywri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> gerry, i got a huge kick out of reading your comments about bossa nova
> singing. you know your stuff. although i understand your loathing of
> asTRUD gilberto, i certainly don't share it.
I know how her name is spelled. My misspelling is an adolescent snipe.
> i read that she was "just" a housewife who happened to know some
> english, so she got to
> participate in (and get undue credit for) the historic "girl from
> ipanema" recording. (to this day, i still wonder if she speaks german,
> b/c to me her accent sounds german, not brasilian, at least in her
> early recordings.)
I don't know about that, but believe that she's spent most of her adult
life post "Girl from Ipanema" in Germany. I can only guess why she has
no Brazilian releases, and so many Unitedstatesian recordings, bit my
guess would be another opportunity to be unkind.
> she's definitely not a "real" singer, but that has
> never stopped me from enjoying her music.
That's it--In a nutshell, that's what keeps me from enjoying her. The
fact that she isn't a "real" singer. From my few personal experiences
with her live, I find that she isn't a "real" performer either. With so
many excellent and hard-working singers and performers around I really
have no patience for those who happened, at one time, to be cute.
> (it always helps to be
> surrounded by superior musicians.) my 2 favorite albums by her are
> "beach samba" (hubert laws flute solos! gershwinesque arrangements by
> deodato!) and gilberto with turrentine, which has got to be one of the
> most bizarre musical pairings in recent history.
I own, or have owned both. Having bought almost anything that related
to Brazil until about 1982, I have owned almost all the material she
ever squatted down and provided her fans. At one time, I would buy
almost anything with Turrentine's name on it, he has such incredible
interpretive skill. Not all of his albums are successes, mostly due to
selection of material and occasionally to ancillary artists (I weary of
Shirley Scott's organ very quickly, for example) but the one with
Astrud is like walking with a rock in your shoe.
Astrud's album with Wanderly is a delicious horror, he's mixed almost
loud enought to drown her pallid whimper completely out--but when he
does I'm listening to that irritating organ sound! Which anguish is the
preferred! It's a difficult aesthetic question.
> if you're of student of bossa nova singing, i'm guessing that it would
> be a good idea to learn what audiences like about it -- from what i
> gather, they like the "simplicity" and "honesty" of certain singers'
> presentations. that's true for me too,
What a convenience; the things you like coincidentally are the things
you project others like too! :-)
My wife asked me why I didn't list Gal among those to consider in
listening to bossa. I adore much of Gal's work, but she simply didn't
come to mind though I know there is some bossa in her vast output. As
Mr. Dinan points out, there are few artists that are dedicated to the
bossa alone, but almost all vocalists have taken a swing at the style
at some point. I still recommend listening to all and deciding which of
the singers--or "not-real" singers if need be--one enjoys the most.
On the other hand, I would never irecommend flawed, amateurish "not
real" singers to others to use in fashioning their own style.
> ...although one thing that i
> really enjoy is how good singers play with time. i love listening to
> joao gilberto and chaka khan back to back. i know chaka khan is loud
> as all get-out, but what she shares with gilberto is her playfulness
> with time. both will dart ahead of the song, then hang back, then
> tiptoe ahead -- try singing along and you'll see what i mean.
As a jazz musician, I know that quite well. A characteristic aspect of
Brazilian style is a decided "hanging-back" on meter. More often than
not it is actually written into the line. This is one of the
difficulties some Latin-American musicians (Cubans, Mexicans,
Puerto-Ricans) tend to encounter in playing Brazilian music, in my
personal experience. They are so use to hitting directly on the notes,
leaving the relationship of clave to guide the metric flow, that they
can tend to sound mechanical in Brazilian music where there is no clave.
> ...gilberto is a bit more predictable, but when he's in playful mode,
> he's a real
> delight.
Joao Gilberto's worst day still has enough to provide endless interest for me.
Gerry
> To me bossa is joao gilberto's voice, vinicius's poetry, and jobim's
> melodies and harmony. i know there are other musicians with their
> styles like baden powell, caymmi, etc but for me bossa are these three
> guys. i have heard that Joao's voice isn't the greatest. i didn't know he is
> a throat singer. this is new and interesting. everytime i have seen
> him sing it's with a microphone so maybe he doesn't really need to
> project his voice. i know when i play its really soft and low without
> any mic support.
>
> as for dynamics, i havent really notice gilberto use dynamics, it
> seems he stays clear from wide dynamic shifts. maybe this is a reason
> he doesn't need any diaphragm support.
I think that's a chicken v. egg question. I can't know whether he
didn't develop any more dynamics or diaphragm approach because he
didn't have to, or because he didn't know any better. I assume the
latter. The majority of American vocalists have very little real
control, haven't studied voice, or great voices. That's okay, it's
thought, they have a good mic and pa system. And they remain
stylistically true to their preferred styles. But if asked to belt a
rafter-rumbling blues, they simply can't do it. Is that good or bad?
Are they limited by the choices they've made in a lack of development
of their voices? Who knows? Joao is Joao.
> ofcourse he has inflections in his singing, its impossible not to
> otherwise you will sound like a monotonous drone.
Consider the inflections, the interpretive skills of Astrud Gilberto if
and when you have a chance.
>> In reviewing a bunch of them just now I realize that my dictum
>> involving sliding into pitch can be a weapon with which I might assult
>> my own statements. Brazilians are noteworthy, singular really, in the
>> way they treat pitch. I've heard endlessly from Unitedstatesian
>> musicians that Brazilians sing flat. I think they do tend in that
>> direction during moments of speed or exuberance, but there is something
>> decidely Brazilian about this that doesn't necessarily detract from the
>> music. In the way a musician or vocalists can play just a little
>> "behind" the beat and in the process give an interpretation a certain
>> intimacy, "naturalness", or "conversational quality"--this too can be
>> applied to pitch, though with much more refined delicacy. A rigid
>> adherence to pitch and timing will make one sound operatic and
>> mechanical. Normally we don't harp about the time (in the US) the way
>> we do about pitch. I think Brazilians put them both in the same kettle
>> for pesonal application or disregard.
>
> interesting. i still can't picture this in my head without an audible
> example. anyone?
Do you mean a mechanical singer? It might take a while for me to put my
finger on one. Perhaps Dick Haymes and many of those pallid gutless
male singers of American pop music through the late 40's and 50's. But
it's kinda difficult to say they are singing mechanically when the
music they are singing is so dull. There is scads of this stuff to be
heard among white singers from the 20's and 30's. But to what end?
Anyone arguing for mechanical as an aesthetic choice are free to do so.
Most of the classical singers and musicians I have known have these
kinds of problems.
If you mean Brazilian singers that sing flat, certainly Gal Costa
qualifies--and I adore her singing for the most part. I fine more
amnong post-1963 artists, primarily MPB and I think they are more
obvious in this respect. All learned to sing on the fly. I think Jorge
Ben, if memory serves, does his duty in this regard. Djavan, Milton
Nascimento, Jobim, early Caetano, Edu Lobo, Dori Caymmi, and Ivan Lins
all qualify to great or lesser extent. Chico Buarque may well take the
grand prize in this regard--another of my short list of all-time
favorite MPB artists. The earlier in the artists career the more
obvious it is, I think.
This is not limited to more recent artists either. Even the grand ol'
man, Dorival, heads south of pitch with great frequency especially in
his later years. Listen to Monarco or Cartola, or the great late
recordings Rafael Rabello did with Elizeth and Nelson Goncalves. It may
well be argued that age is more the function of this aspect rather than
some inherent Brazilian quality.
I can't tell you how many times I tried to introduce musician friends
to Brazilian artists in the 70's and 80's and frequently their first
reponse was, "Hey that guy is singing flat!"
> Mark's comment:
> Joao Gilberto - a haunting, vibrato-less tone reminiscent
> of Miles Davis' trumpet playing and Chet Baker's singing
>
> this too is interesting. i never noted gilberto's lack of vibrato. i
> myself sing most bossa standards with vibrato on sustained notes by
> choice. i think it adds interest. i'll try singing without vibrato
> next time(this too is hard to do as well) .
Do it till it's not hard. Many times you'll find singers do very
little in the way of supporting a note for it's full measure anyway. I
think it's a very important skill to acquire. Because then you can put
vibrato in when you like, not because you have no conrol.
> and i disagree with the comments on Astrud. her voice is pretty and
> perhaps she's not a great singer, but then again neither is joao. then
> again neither is louis armstrong, or fred astaire or tom waits, but
> their voice suit what they sing and they have a particularity with
> their voice.
I think you're talking about tonal quality with Louis and Waits, for
example. But their artistry is obvious. With Astrud, if there is
obvious artistry of any kind, I'd have to have it point out to me.
Astaire had what's called "sell" in his limited-capacity singing,
because he's an unqualified entertainer. Again I find none of this in
Astrud and I've seen here live. After 40+ years with her whining, I'm
done with fans explaining her "qualities": She's cute, or they have a
personal relationship with her, they are a fan because they are a fan.
That's fine but it doesn't rub off easily.
> ...and on strength of that, they have made an indelible mark.
> After all, I can't think of anyone else singing girl from ipanema but
> astrud gilberto.
I'd prefer to hear any singer--a singer, mind you--do the song, and
have no problems listening to their efforts. The question of whether
Astrud is a hack by any logical consideration (my view), or whether as
a cultural bookmark she has some ineffable value that is just so right
(as in your reference to the fact that inexplicably you can't imagine
another singer singing so great a song), is just the way life is.
Incidentally, Jobim is some kind of personal god to me. I have no
problems accepting the fact that he's lame as a singer. It's a fact.
Still I'm moved by his vastly limited singing. He's a much larger
construct to me though, and an amalgam of my knowledge of him, his
life, his compositions, etc. Others are certainly free to feel the same
thing about Astrud or Rudy Vallee, or Bobby Sherman. None have any
vocal abilities whatever, but that doesn't mean they don't have people
sleeping with their pictures under the pillows.
I understand your view. My favorite comparison is my own mother: you
may not think she is a good cook or a pretty lady, but you would of
course be vastly wrong if you discussed her with her progeny. It's not
about facts, it's about matters of the heart, of memory, of cultural
icons, of personal projection. I use none of these in considering
Astrud's inabilities, and that's why she fails my tests--they are
musical tests alone, not considerations of whether the mystery erection
gripped me when I saw her in hip boots in 1966.
> i think as long as you sing the notes in pitch, with a good rhythm and
> add something special to the sauce, you're ok in my book. Good
> technique such as dynamics, vibrato, scatting, is great flavor but the
> basics is whats essential.
That's true. "Something special", is vastly different to different people.
That's all I intend to say on Astrud for the next year or so. It's the
definition of a waste of my time, and likely all others.
Gerry
> I don't know about that, but believe that she's spent most of her adult
> life post "Girl from Ipanema" in Germany. I can only guess why she has
> no Brazilian releases, and so many Unitedstatesian recordings, bit my
> guess would be another opportunity to be unkind.
Correcting myself:
The Astrud Gilberto Album (1965) was an Elenco release. bit it seems
directed to a Unitedstatesian market in that she sings "Once I Loved"
and "How Insensitive" instead of the Brazilian counterparts.
Beach Samba (1967) was apparently a Verve/Copacabana release. I assume
Copacabana was involved in its release in Brazil but it too seems to be
essentially a Unitedstatesian recording: She's singing songs by the
Lovin' Spoonful and limp American ballads.
Incidentally the startling abilities evidenced on the Turrentine album
were followed by a 15-year lay-off from recording. The next album was
followed by another 7 years on the dole.
patskywriter
> Astrud's album with Wanderly is a delicious horror, he's mixed almost
> loud enought to drown her pallid whimper completely out--but when he
> does I'm listening to that irritating organ sound! Which anguish is the
> preferred! It's a difficult aesthetic question.
hilarious! i still don't know what to think of walter wanderley. i
usually get tired of the organ sound real fast, but listening to
wanderley is a goofy indulgence. his two A&M releases ("when it was
done" and "moondreams") are baffling. his version of "soulful strut"
is a disgrace, but i love it anyway. for the life of me i can't tell
whether or not he's serious. (he's not playing a regular organ;
instead he's playing some strange bach-sounding thing.)
(one of my unfulfilled dreams has always been to be the first in line
for a Christmas album recorded by the duo walter wanderley and
thelonious monk.)
there's one more singer i wanted to mention. remember the tamba trio/
tamba 4? the bassist, bebeto, sometimes takes the lead vocal role. i
think that his style is very similar to joao gilberto's -- unaffected,
vibratoless, intimate. he might be another one you'd like to check
out.
DJ piddipat
Ken Mathieson
Let's not forget 2 of the great early bossa singers:
Sylvia Telles and Maria Toledo
Just my two-pence worth
Ken
"mark dinan" <mark....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:017f493e-095b-4ac2...@a18g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
nono
gave technical explanations.
So, I thought i'd keep it going, here are some youtube videos of
singers that Mark mentioned.
the videos are recordings and live videos so there will be some
difference in sound.
some of these are new to me so i don't know the particular nuances of
their voices. perhaps people can fill in the blanks as they want.
also, most of these are female. anyone want to list their favorite
male singers?
Were I to list my favorite Brazilian
> singers who have sang bossa nova at some point in their career (in no
> particular order, but Joao Gilberto would always be first):
>
> 1) Joao Gilberto
> 2) Elis Regina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRqI5R6L7ow
> 2a) Nara Leao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TueDBUv3h4
> 3) Antonio Carlos Jobim (He sang! Played piano! Wrote tunes!)
> 3) Rosa Passos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSFIWnd7_p8
> 4) Maria Bethania
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqr5c6-lapo&feature=related
> 5) Elizeth Cardosa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyXW2pyS6Ww - these one in particular
sounds very 60s to me
> 6) Gal Costa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLjVC-7ewJw&feature=related
nono
I also like Joao's technique form of scatting like in the intro of
this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9deMsQTx-4&feature=related
where he uses his voice to mimic percussive instruments.
i do this as well when i sing, usually on the second chorus where im
just mimicing different percussive instruments along with my guitar.
its a nice rest from the words. usually on the third chorus, i'll
return to the lyrics.
its a very simple thing but i think it adds alot to the quality of
playing.
also this is a pet theory, but i think sometimes singers will stress
the "ch" and "dj" of words. for e.g. de is pronounced as "dj", te as
"ch", and they will actually push it or stress it a bit more to make
it sound like a shaker or rasp.
also the dipthongs like a'o or au, like in berimbau = is very nasal
and when pushed in pronounciation can make the same effect as a
bermibau.
i don't think this is far fetched since many other vocal traditions
are like this, flamenco, indian music where much of the pronounciation
mimics an instrument.
thomas
>
> Do you mean a mechanical singer? It might take a while for me to put my
> finger on one. Perhaps Dick Haymes and many of those pallid gutless
> male singers of American pop music through the late 40's and 50's. But
> it's kinda difficult to say they are singing mechanically when the
> music they are singing is so dull.
Dick Haymes had loads of chops and sang all the great standards. He
did a lot of pop crapola, but some right good stuff too. I can't find
any of his best work on the 'tube, but this one is not bad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coh_bJW8stw&feature=related
It's not his fault his mom was a voice teacher.
Gerry
> On Aug 28, 4:56 pm, Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote:
>>
>> Do you mean a mechanical singer? It might take a while for me to put my
>> finger on one. Perhaps Dick Haymes and many of those pallid gutless
>> male singers of American pop music through the late 40's and 50's. But
>> it's kinda difficult to say they are singing mechanically when the
>> music they are singing is so dull.
>
> Dick Haymes had loads of chops and sang all the great standards.
I didn't say he was devoid of technical ability, in fact implying the
obvious. I didn't address his repertoire either.
> He did a lot of pop crapola, but some right good stuff too. I can't find
> any of his best work on the 'tube, but this one is not bad:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Coh_bJW8stw&feature=related
>
> It's not his fault his mom was a voice teacher.
That's good information, maybe that's why he was so accurate--which is
what I was talking about in using the work "mechanical". He hit smack
in the middle of the note, smack in the middle of the time, and had
very little "give", periodic "flatness", pushed or pulled the time,
etc. I've heard a fair amount of Haymes and found him without much
identifying personality, but admit a significant part of my disinterest
was dull orchestras and arrangements. But whether he was "good" or "bad
by anyone's observation was not my point.
My point: Every opera singer with a steady working job has chops out
the wazoo. And in popular repertoire many/most of them are mechanical
as hell--relative to accuracy in time and pitch. They excite people by
their power, dynamics and operatic gymnastics--not their swing,
intimacy or immediacy of personality.
The same is true of some eastern European "jazz" musicians. They are
accurate and precise and vastly cabable, and fail to produce any
meaningful response in me because of their mechanics. They are too
accurate, they have no grit, slop or apparent "lack of precision"
implying passion or excitement over-riding their technical ability.
Hope I said it better this time.
By the way, what is Haymes best work by your estimation?
thomas
I know what you mean about perfect chops. They can be thrilling, but
it's the human imperfections that make things interesting. Otherwise,
everyone would be listening to MIDI and Cher-bots.
> By the way, what is Haymes best work by your estimation?
Haymes made a couple of good albums in the 50s, but I cannot recall
any titles from memory, and much of my collection is still packed away
in moving boxes.
Here's a real nice cut of the kind I was thinking about. Lester Young
was reportedly listening to a lot of Sinatra and Haymes during his
last years, and I'll bet this was one of the tracks he dug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIHm2rprM2Q
Haymes is a little more mature and disheveled here than he was in his
1940s bobby-soxer period. I cannot abide that stuff either, even
though I like Sinatra from that time.