Walter Wanderley - Hero or Villain?
clan...@my-deja.com
Brazilian organ maestro Walter Wanderley. I have a couple of his Verve
releases and am still unsure of how I really feel about his work. The
kitsch appeal is strong, that is if kitsch appeals to you, and as a
newer convert to Brazilian music I was initially vulnerable to his
easily accessible Verve releases. I've since expanded my tastes and
moved beyond his staccato B-3 attacks. However, occaisionally I return
to Walter and his jazz-com-latin forays into Brazilian standards.
What do others think of this often-dismissed brazilian bossa veteran?
He played with Joao Gilberto on Joao's legendary 3rd LP
He covered some of the classic Bossa Nova compositions in the early days
He played with some notable back-up musicians (part of his trio)
He brought some sounds (many unique to brazilian music) to many american
ears, like (I forget the istrument names) traditional brazilian
percussion.
I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this enigmatic and often
lounge-corrupted musician.
Allen
I have included some text from Ruy Castro's "Chega de Saudade" referring
to Wanderley. I found this text on B.J. Major's site dedicated to
Wanderley: "http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html"
(translation from Brazilian to English courtesy of Jose Sanchez Perez):
"It took only five months for Walter Wanderley to become extremely
popular in America with a Marcos Valle song (Marcos and his brother
Paulo Sérgio are great Brazilian composers). Wanderley -
whose name had the advantage of being able to be pronounced won'-der-lee
[in America] - arrived at New York in 1966, contracted by Creed Taylor.
He recorded "Samba de Verão" (Summer Samba) in May and went directly to
the top. In Brazil, he had a great reputation among the musicians and
his records were popular, but not that much - his repertory was a
festival of "boleros" and cha cha, when everybody knew that the
incredible "balance" (swing) of his organ deseved much better material.
People who knew him from the São Paulo nights were sure about it since
1958, when Walter, at 26 years old, arrived from Pernambuco (A Brazilian
northwest state) to play at "Boate Oásis" and "Captain's Bar" of
Comodoro Hotel. At this time he was married to Isaurinha Garcia, for
whom he was companion and arranger. Around 1963, he started to accompany
and made arrangements for Claudette Soares (another famous Brazilian
female singer), using this opportunity to change his own repertory.
That satisfied everybody, except, maybe, Isaurinha, who then lost her
husband. Tony Bennett, who heard Wanderley in one of his trips to Brazil
and thought there was nothing to equal Walter's organ playing,
recommended him to Creed Taylor and everybody knows what happened next.
Or maybe not. His enourmous success in the USA would have passed as
nothing in Brazil if his American records weren't sometimes released in
Brazil, where they were received with the usual apathy. No Brazilian
businessmen ever had interest in bringing him to play in their own
country. The Americans compared his humour to Fats Waller, the best jazz
organist, and his technique to Jimmy Smith, the best of that time. At a
certain moment, Walter Wanderley had in his hands all of the jazz clubs
of Los Angeles and travelled a lot to Mexico, Europe and Japan."
And from Pages 295 and 296 of "Chega de Saudade":
"Be Patient, Waltinho", João Gilberto was imploring to Walter Wanderley,
who would like to be at any other place, than at that studio.
This dialogue was happening in March, 10th, 1961, when they both were
recording the third (and last) João Gilberto's LP for ODEON - which was
simply titled "João Gilberto". [This album is pictured and tracks listed
on Page 3.] João asked Walter Wanderley to make, using the organ, a
pecial kind of ship roaring to serve as an overture to "O Barquinho".
Wanderley wasn't able to find the correct tone; so, João showed him -
with his voice - the exact kind of sound he wanted. Wanderley musicians
(Papudinho, trumpet; Azeitona, bass; Toninho Pinheiro, drums) were
astonished: João Gilberto was able to produce any sound with his voice.
The day before (March, 9th, 1961), João had recorded "Bolinha de Papel",
a tune composed by Geraldo Pereira that had been successful in the year
of 1945 with the "Anjos do Inferno" group. João Gilberto - the most
modern musician of Brazil - was being influencied by the old-fashioned
music and only on that day he had recorded three old songs: Dorival
Caymmi's "Saudade da Bahia" and "O Samba da Minha Terra" and Lauro
Maia's "Trenzinho". He still pretended to include "A Primeira Vez",
Orlando Silva's great success of 1940.
Where were the new bossas? The relationship between João Gilberto and
Tom Jobim was very bad at that time. Tom "wasn't patient" and Aloysio de
Oliveira had left ODEON that September. This fact had complicated
everything. João didn't like Aloysio very much (he called him "That
American"); but, everytime work conflicts with Jobim began, Aloysio came
to help them.
Because Aloysio wasn't around anymore, Jobim didn't want to participate
in those recording sessions. That's why Walter Wanderley was working
with João Gilberto.
The two first albums "Chega de Saudade" and "O Amor, O Sorriso e a Flor"
were so successful, that the third one couldn't fail. But it was
failing. João, himself, made the arrangements - actually, it would
be better to say that he tried to tell Walter Wanderley what he wanted -
but his dissatisfaction with the recorded material was enormous. The
next day, March, 11th, 1961, he recorded "Presente de Natal" and stopped
the recordings. Only five months after, in August, he returned to the
studio. This time with Tom on command.
From August, 2th to September, 28th, Jobim and João recorded the other
songs with a repertory that was nicely Bossa Nova. Tom got that ship
roaring using the trombones for "O Barquinho" and simplified the work to
the other songs: "O Amor em Paz", "Insensatez", "Este seu Olhar", "Você
e Eu" and "Coisa Mais Linda".
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
clan...@my-deja.com
1965 Odeon album, "Ve"?
All the album says is "wanderley" and the picture is unclear?
Allen
bras...@my-deja.com
clance77 wrote:
>
> What do others think of this often-dismissed brazilian bossa veteran?
>
Hero, by all means. Walter Wanderley is a wonderful and unique
musician. He was fundamental in the shaping of BN at its inceptiopn.
Some say he "organized" it. Very little has been written about him in
Brazil and elsewhere. I think he has been ignored by Brazilians
(nothing new here) and mislabelled by US critics. But he was the most
(financially) successful Brazilian musician in the US ever. By the time
of his death in 1984, he was the one who had more recordings (and in
more recording companies as he kept switching to better deals) and
owned a small chain of restaurants in Los Angeles.
Born in Recife, from a family of Dutch descendants, "van der Ley"
(Brazilianized to Wanderley), he was instrumental in shaping BN at its
inception. Some say he "organized" it. He started playing triangle
(percussion instrument used in Catholic ceremonies and NE Brazillian
folk music) at a very early age and soon switched to the church organ.
The rest is history. I think this detail about his early involvement
with the triangle has been overlooked by critics all over. IMO that
would explain his unusual musical approach (as JG's early experience
with drums) and ability to develop and play counterpoint harmonies in
a fast and virtually unmatched sttacato stuttering. Listen to
his "Surfboard" rendition.
> He played with Joao Gilberto on Joao's legendary 3rd LP
He not only played with JG but arranged and conducted some of JG's
early recordings min Brazil. He also arranged and played in solo
recordings that were hits in Brazil prior to his move to the US circa
1965.
> He played with some notable back-up musicians (part of his trio)
>
> He brought some sounds (many unique to brazilian music) to many
american
> ears, like (I forget the istrument names) traditional brazilian
> percussion.
>
> I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on this enigmatic and often
> lounge-corrupted musician.
There we goagain :-)) The only bad thing I ever heardabout WW isthat
he used to beat his wife (female vocalist Isaurinha Garcia) whom he
later divorced prior to moving to the US. But nobody is perfect.
Andthere might have beenlots og exageration and bias from people who
envied his talent and financial success.
IMO Walter has been undully tagged by US critics as a fine "lounge"
organ player but they keep forgetting 2 key points: 1. where can one
find a lounge with a multiple keyboard organ, and 2. where can one find
someone playing just like Walter Wanderley?
Carlos
>
> Allen
>
> I have included some text from Ruy Castro's "Chega de Saudade"
referring
> to Wanderley. I found this text on B.J. Major's site dedicated to
> Wanderley: "http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html"
>
> (translation from Brazilian to English courtesy of Jose Sanchez
Perez):
>
> "It took only five months for Walter Wanderley to become extremely
> popular in America with a Marcos Valle song (Marcos and his brother
> Paulo Sérgio are great Brazilian composers). Wanderley -
> whose name had the advantage of being able to be pronounced won'-der-
lee
> [in America] - arrived at New York in 1966, contracted by Creed
Taylor.
> He recorded "Samba de Verão" (Summer Samba) in May and went directly
to
> the top. In Brazil, he had a great reputation among the musicians and
> his records were popular, but not that much - his repertory was a
> festival of "boleros" and cha cha, when> People who knew him from the
São Paulo everybody knew that the
> incredible "balance" (swing) of his organ deseved much better
material.
>
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> >Oh, and is this the same Wanderley that played with Milton Banana on his
> >1965 Odeon album, "Ve"?
> >
> >All the album says is "wanderley" and the picture is unclear?
>
> They are two different musicians even though Dustygroove makes this mistake
> when they list the Milton Banana trio dates.
>
> Joe Carter
I own the CD reissue entitled "The Milton Banana Trio" and in the
booklet in the jewel case, the original Odeon Brasil 1965 LP back cover
is reproduced. It says Wanderley's name on it as well.
Regards,
--bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> While killing time at work today I chanced upon a nice site dedicated to
> Brazilian organ maestro Walter Wanderley. I have a couple of his Verve
> releases and am still unsure of how I really feel about his work. The
> kitsch appeal is strong, that is if kitsch appeals to you, and as a
> newer convert to Brazilian music I was initially vulnerable to his
> easily accessible Verve releases. I've since expanded my tastes and
> moved beyond his staccato B-3 attacks. However, occaisionally I return
> to Walter and his jazz-com-latin forays into Brazilian standards.
I find it interesting that you say you've "moved beyond" his style, yet
you still return to listening to him on an "occasional" basis. That
tells me you're not quite done with listening to Walter. A musician
whose work is appreciated at one time doesn't necessarily stop being
appreciated when your listening area becomes larger.
In my own experience, quite the opposite has happened. After initially
being exposed to Walter's music in 1966 with his debut in the U.S. and
several years afterward, I made the transition from high school to
college (where I majored in music), then played as a semi-pro (trombone)
for several years in a local dinner-theatre circuit. After widening my
listening area to include other faces of jazz, adult pop, & contemporary
composers who enjoyed the public's attention (Bacharach, Jobim, Mancini,
Williams, et al.), I came back to Wanderley's music after all these
years and now that I've come back, I don't intend to leave it again.
It's not that I don't like the style or appreciate the talent of other
musicians I've explored; I definitely do--I just feel that Wanderley's
style perfectly fits what I am looking for in listening enjoyment. And
he has no equal that I've heard anywhere in the world.
You mention only the U.S. Verve recordings in your message, so I have to
presume that you've never heard any of his Brazilian recordings--which
are vastly different than the U.S. ones. The original Brazilian "Summer
Samba" is a good example. The original version has the melody played by
a sax section, the tempo is noticeably faster and more syncopated--and
doesn't sound like a "typical" Wanderley-style arrangement at all. In
fact, overall it sounds more like something Xavier Cougat would have
recorded. Ditto for the other Odeon Brasil recordings--of which he made
numerous LPs years before he came to the States. People in the U.S.
have no idea how wildly popular Walter was in his own country; he was a
contracted recording star at 18 yrs. old and was recording by day and
playing nightclubs in the evenings. He didn't "get discovered" by
coming to the U.S. That only produced a new facet of his career and
introduced him to a brand new audience that had never heard of him
before.
I don't go into this in detail on the Discography site, but I really
detested the organ before I became exposed to Walter's music. I'm from
a city where a native son had his own Sunday afternoon tv show for
something like 40 yrs. and was a fixture in the area. I absolutely
HATED the way he played organ; everything sounded the same, no
originality, no flair. His music would put you to sleep. I was also
exposed to other organ greats like Virgil Thompson (playing the world
famous John Wanamaker department store pipe organ), New York's Radio
City Music Hall organist, and others. It was only with Walter Wanderley
that I saw how if the right person is playing an instrument, you can
indeed fall in love with that instrument. I wouldn't have thought that
possible where the organ is concerned if it weren't for Walter.
Regards,
--B.J. Major, webmaster
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I only ever heard one album by Wanderly - I think it was a trio album with a
> woman singer and drummer. There were well known standards such as Summer Samba
> on it and also a very charming melody about a portuguese washerwoman.
This is the LP/CD reissue "A Certain Smile, A Certain Sadness" with
Astrud Gilberto and the Walter Wanderley Trio.
> He has to my ears something special. To dismiss his sound as cheesy is too
> superficial a comment. There is a tradition of restaurant/hotel playing which
> is very musical and part of perhaps a bygone culture in which the standard of
> musicianship was very high, and the restaurant audience were informed.
>
> It is a postive quality in my view that Walter Wanderley straddles the culture
> of this kind of restaurant playing and serious musical projects.
>
> Can you imagine what a pleasure it would be to walk into a restaurant and hear
> someone of this calibre playing... ? Also I bet he could make people on the
> dance floor enjoy themselves.
This is something that is brought out on Page 6 of the website in the
interview I did with Claudio Slon, the Trio drummer Walter brought to
the States. Claudio says that when they were still playing in Brazil,
"... for dancing purposes, as Walter's rhythm was always very contagious
and lent itself in those early recordings to make young people feel like
dancing."
Regards,
--bj
Jim Braun
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:2000020510...@pool-207-205-170-70.snfr.grid.net...
> <clan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I was also
> exposed to other organ greats like Virgil Thompson (playing the world
> famous John Wanamaker department store pipe organ),
Virgil Fox?
--
[ Jim Braun ( j...@teleport.com ) - Portland, Oregon, USA ]
Empcds
>booklet in the jewel case, the original Odeon Brasil 1965 LP back cover
>is reproduced. It says Wanderley's name on it as well.
Exactly, Wanderly the pianist not Walter Wanderly the organist. Two different
people.
Joe C.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:2000020510...@pool-207-205-170-70.snfr.grid.net... >
> <clan...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > I was also exposed to other organ greats like Virgil Thompson (playing
> > the world famous John Wanamaker department store pipe organ),
>
> Virgil Fox?
Sorry, yes. For some reason I always confuse his name with the other
Virgil....
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
I'm not aware that there is a pianist also named Wanderley who is not
the same person as Walter Wanderley, the organist. Walter Wanderley
does play piano on several recordings I own, along with organ.
What is this different pianist's first name?
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> >I own the CD reissue entitled "The Milton Banana Trio" and in the
> >booklet in the jewel case, the original Odeon Brasil 1965 LP back cover
> >is reproduced. It says Wanderley's name on it as well.
>
> Exactly, Wanderly the pianist not Walter Wanderly the organist. Two different
> people.
>
> Joe C.
I just did a search on www.allmusic.com; the only other pianist named
"Wanderly" (note the different spelling from Walter Wanderley's last
name) is not listed with a first name and is only credited on ONE album
from 1999 called "Roberto Carlos". I find it doubtful that this is the
same person who would have recorded with the Milton Banana Trio way back
in 1965 and didn't receive a credit for anything else until 1999.
Interestingly, this "Wanderly" pianist doesn't have any bio info
available or any other credits other than this 1999 release mention.
On the Milton Banana Odeon Brasil CD I own, it clearly gives the
spelling for the Walter "Wanderley" musician on the 1965 back cover of
the original LP photo. As I said in a previous message, Walter was not
just an organist, but in fact played harpsichord, piano, and (later on)
ARP Synthesizer in addition to organ.
I'd like to clear this up once and for all by knowing this other
"Wanderly"'s first name. When two musicians have the same (or similar)
last name and play the same instruments, it's best to refer to them with
their complete (first and last) names to avoid confusion like this!
Empcds
>"Wanderly"'s first name. When two musicians have the same (or similar)
>last name and play the same instruments, it's best to refer to them with
>their complete (first and last) names to avoid confusion like this!
According to Jose Domingos Raffaelli, Jazz critic for O Globo, Wanderly was a
pianist living and Rio, part of the scene in the 60s and a member of Milton
Banana's trio. He only went by the one name. Jose told me this information
months ago when I asked the question if this was the same Walter Wanderley (who
I know also played piano). I will email Jose and try to get more info.
Joe C.
JMKAUFFMAN
"Wanderley" on the Banana albums is with an "e" between the "l" and the "y,"
the same way Walter spelled it. Also, I could be mistaken, but I am fairly
certain I read a bio of Walter after his death which listed the Banana trio
among his credits, but I guess this, too, could have been a mistake.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> (B.J. (Barbara J.) Major) wrote:
>
> The original Brazilian "Summer Samba" is a good example. The original
> version has the melody played by a sax section, the tempo is noticeably
> faster and more syncopated--and doesn't sound like a "typical"
> Wanderley-style arrangement at all. In fact, overall it sounds more
> like something Xavier Cougat would have recorded.
>
> No flame war intended (I am for peace above all) but I find it really
> hard to understand and believe one could compare Walter Wanderley's
> offkey, offtempo syncopated counterpoint, his sophisticated
> harmonization and magic left hand with Xavier Cougat's "Mambo Jambo".
> Cougat is indeed an icon on his own, an absolutely wonderful band
> leader of brass orchestras with heavy percussion based on bongos and
> playing "Latin American" popular tunes in the 50's that IMO have
> nothing to do with WW repertoire and style.
If you listened to Wanderley's Brazilian-recorded "Summer Samba" track,
I think you would understand the reference I mean here. I say that
because in that track, Walter doesn't even play the melody at all--the
saxes do. The instrumentation and the arrangement put me in mind of the
*style* of some of Xavier's pieces (minus bongos, of course). It was
merely a reference point for describing the difference.
Above all, I was trying to illustrate that Walter's U.S. recordings
sound nothing like his original Brazilian ones in style, arrangement, or
instrumentation. Walter also made sure never to repeat himself; by that
I mean, his own later arrangement of "Summer Samba" on the Brazil's
Greatest Hits LP is totally different and sounds nothing like the one on
the Rain Forest LP, either. This is a *great* compliment to his
musicianship.
bras...@my-deja.com
The original Brazilian "Summer Samba" is a good example. The original
version has the melody played by a sax section, the tempo is noticeably
faster and more syncopated--and doesn't sound like a "typical"
Wanderley-style arrangement at all. In fact, overall it sounds more
like something Xavier Cougat would have recorded.
No flame war intended (I am for peace above all) but I find it really
hard to understand and believe one could compare Walter Wanderley's
offkey, offtempo syncopated counterpoint, his sophisticated
harmonization and magic left hand with Xavier Cougat's "Mambo Jambo".
Cougat is indeed an icon on his own, an absolutely wonderful band
leader of brass orchestras with heavy percussion based on bongos and
playing "Latin American" popular tunes in the 50's that IMO have
nothing to do with WW repertoire and style.
Carlos
bras...@my-deja.com
track,
> I think you would understand the reference I mean here. I say that
> because in that track, Walter doesn't even play the melody at all--the
> saxes do. The instrumentation and the arrangement put me in mind of
the
> *style* of some of Xavier's pieces (minus bongos, of course). It was
> merely a reference point for describing the difference.
>
> Above all, I was trying to illustrate that Walter's U.S. recordings
> sound nothing like his original Brazilian ones in style, arrangement,
or
> instrumentation. Walter also made sure never to repeat himself; by
that
> I mean, his own later arrangement of "Summer Samba" on the Brazil's
> Greatest Hits LP is totally different and sounds nothing like the one
on
> the Rain Forest LP, either. This is a *great* compliment to his
> musicianship.
>
heard them in a long, long time. But I can assure you that at the time
they were fiirst released,I had waited too long for and was one of the
first to listen quite intensively to each one of them. And my mind (oh,
my...) tells me that if you listen a bit mote closely you will
certainly find him playing in unison with the brass, usually in
dissonant sounds so as to reach those special effects and an absolute
unique sound. To my mind, Walter was one of the first to blend organ
with other instruments so as to provide that new musical chemistry. The
ship's whistle in JG's first recording of "O Barquinho" carried WW's
typical chemistry organ/brass in there, and it was his idea, although
Jobim finished that arrangement (after WW's nth argument with JG) and
took credit for it.
Although I have an utmost respect and admiration for the great Xavier
Cougat, and agree that his brass section was really fantastic, I
honestly can't see any similarity whatsoever between their sound and
styles. And if there were any, in fact, that wouldn't by any means
diminish any of them in any way. They are just different. That, of
course, is just my personal opinion, and I may be wrong as any mortal.
Regards,
Carlos
Like a few other Brazilian musicians (such as Sergio Mendes, and I am
not comparing them), he changed his style in US recordings so as to
achieve his marketing and sales objectives -- which both actually did
and won real fortunes.
Carlos
Carlos
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I don't have Walter's early Brazilian recordings anymore and haven't
> heard them in a long, long time. But I can assure you that at the time
> they were fiirst released,I had waited too long for and was one of the
> first to listen quite intensively to each one of them. And my mind (oh,
> my...) tells me that if you listen a bit mote closely you will
> certainly find him playing in unison with the brass, usually in
> dissonant sounds so as to reach those special effects and an absolute
> unique sound.
I have the Brazilian "Summer Samba" playing as I am writing this
message. Unlike some of Walter's other Brazilian recordings, this has
no brass (i.e., trumpet or trombone), only a large saxophone section.
This is what I am hearing:
1. It starts out with a four bar very long, slow intro played by both
Walter and the saxophone section in unison. It then changes
dramatically to the uptempo version of the song.
2. Eight bars of melody are played by the saxes alone with Walter
playing non-melody single notes underneath them, then eight bars of
melody are played by Walter alone with just percussion. These sixteen
bars then repeat again.
3. Then after a percussion and sax vamp, the saxes begin improvising,
again with Walter playing both single notes and chords and a bit of
improvising underneath them. This section goes on for thirty six bars.
4. Then the song returns to how it began with the saxophone playing the
melody with single notes by Walter underneath, but this time they are
followed by the solo guitar playing the melody for eight bars where
Walter had the melody before. Walter is still underneath, playing
mostly single notes and some chords.
5. The song ends in a unison vamp to fade played by the saxes and
Walter.
> Like a few other Brazilian musicians (such as Sergio Mendes, and I am
> not comparing them), he changed his style in US recordings so as to
> achieve his marketing and sales objectives -- which both actually did
> and won real fortunes.
That Walter's recording style was changed for the U.S. albums--yes.
That it was Walter's idea to do so--no. Creed Taylor, who was the
producer at Verve at that time, is responsible for that. Walter and his
Trio were not in favor of changing either their arrangements or style of
playing for the U.S. audience, but it was at Creed's insistance that
this be done. Creed felt that the big Brazilian band sound with the
full saxophone section, etc. would not sell well with the American
audience, & that this new audience would prefer a smaller, more intimate
sound with just the Trio and a few other instruments used sparingly in
the arrangements (i.e., the U.S. studio musicians who also played solos
on the albums). No doubt that Creed felt this way because of the huge
success of the U.S. "Jazz Samba" and "Getz/Gilberto" LPs which had very
limited instrumentation in them and were sales blockbusters.
Creed is also the one who insisted that "Summer Samba" be the released
single from the Rain Forest LP despite very vocal protest from Walter
and the Trio members (this is explained in detail in the liner notes to
the "Samba Swing!" CD compilation).
Sinistro
as a last name, which was unusual. So it is possible that the Wanderley
that Joe is talking was a Wanderley something.
Luiz
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:20000205122...@pool-207-205-170-70.snfr.grid.net...
> Empcds <emp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >I own the CD reissue entitled "The Milton Banana Trio" and in the
> > >booklet in the jewel case, the original Odeon Brasil 1965 LP back cover
> > >is reproduced. It says Wanderley's name on it as well.
> >
> > Exactly, Wanderly the pianist not Walter Wanderly the organist. Two
different
> > people.
> >
> > Joe C.
>
> I'm not aware that there is a pianist also named Wanderley who is not
> the same person as Walter Wanderley, the organist. Walter Wanderley
> does play piano on several recordings I own, along with organ.
>
> What is this different pianist's first name?
>
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Be aware that Wanderley is a common first name in Brasil. But W.W. had
> it as a last name, which was unusual. So it is possible that the
> Wanderley that Joe is talking was a Wanderley something.
Yes, I've read that it's a common first name in Brasil. I'm trying to
verify this "other Wanderly pianist" because the name on the back of at
least two (maybe more) Milton Banana Trio LPs has the name spelled "ley"
at the end instead of "ly".
Walter Wanderley used Wanderley as his last name, but it was actually a
middle name. His full name was Walter Jose Wanderley Mendoza.
bras...@my-deja.com
decades without hearing it further but I had a feeling that his right
hand played in unison with the brass section (sax, trombone, flute or
whatever blowing instruments). Maybe I just heard some other recording
with another arrangement or I may be just plain wrong.
Anyway, thanks for your information and personal homage to this
wonderful musician.
Carlos
Sinistro
to overcome the obstacles that prematurely destroyed many promising careers.
Listener of Jacob do Bandolim and Waldir Azevedo, he easily developed his
gift of improvisation. He entered in groups of jazz that appeared in
Recife, inpired by keyboardist Walter Wanderley, star of a nightclub in the
city. Ironically: the American dream of the people of his town were so
strong that for many times Heraldo had to hide his roots in popular music.
'I got a job on Radio Jornal do Comércio, at the station orchestra. We only
played American music, that style that makes people cry on the movies.'
After a invitation of Walter Wanderley, he adventured into the night life.
'Maybe I would stay there making jazz in the nighs of Pernanbuco, if haven't
appeared in my life an incredible accordionist, a little crazy, with blond,
almost white, hair.' The name? Hermeto Pascoal. They became friends. They
created a group where they could show what most excited them - the mixture
of Brazilian Northeastern music with jazz techniques.
'There was a problem, because Hermeto didn't want in any way, learn to play
piano. He had only the right hand, just playing the melody. I proposed
that I 'covered' his left hand, by playing the chords on the guitar'. He
learned it in three days and got rid of me'
Heraldo, didn't mind, he moved to Sao Paulo, got a job at the nightclub
Oasis, he started to participate in records of famous singers - after all he
could read music.
'People like me because I had the knowhow, the essential education. But I
wasn't a squared musician, like the ones that leave school with no
experience.'
Sad that this prestige was always limited to the universe of nightclubs,
orchestras and recording studios. Beyond this areas, Heraldo Dumont only
started to have a little fame, after 1966, with the Quarteto Novo, with him
and Theo de Barros (viola caipira, acoutic guitar, bass, etc.), Airto
Moreira (percussion) and Hermeto Pascoal (in several intruments).
The Quarteto Novo didn't have luck, if you compare its trajectory with many
other less competent groups more demagogic and well succeed. But the
Quarteto Novo, while alive, was brilliant. It gave color and form, for
example, to the song "Disparada", of Theo Barros and Geraldo Vandre. They
ransomed the Northeasthern "galope" from years of absolute silence, a live a
active rhythm, lost to the ignorance of the country. Better: the Quarteto
Novo utilized only acoustic instruments, despite the pressure of
tropicalism, a style that emphasized the utilization of amplifiers. Heraldo
remember:
'We want to revitalize the memories of our people that we assimilated
individually. But we were afraid that the thing would have and Americanized
look. For several times we just throw away ready and finished compositions
that we considered too much foreign. I suffer most, because I played with
Dick Farney's group - that made me the favorite aim of the other three
musicians. I confess that I felt ashamed of having lost my roots. At the
time, however, a musician like me didn't receive offers every day. The
critics, for example, cursed Luiz Gonzaga. Baiao was third class music. It
scared me the idea of abandoning the chance that jazz was giving to me and
to change it by the old viola caipira. I thought that a guitar player had
to follow the ways of Barney Kessel and Wes Montgomery. The rest was trash.
'
The work at the Quarteto Novo, however, liberated Heraldo from his fears.
In 1967, the group accompanied Edu Lobo and Maria Medalha in "Ponteio", from
Edu Lobo and Jose Carlos Capinam, the winner of the "Festival da Record"
that year. The style of the quartet, finally, would become well respected a
little later if Airto Moreira and Hermeto Pascoal haven't decided to try a
different way in the USA.
The Quarteto Novo, ended in 1968 and the only album recorded, with the seal
Odeon dated of 1967, is an admirable document of the experimentalism of
those four extremely talented musicians.
"Today I cannot play the guitar in a jazz fashion. When there is no choice,
I do, by request, demand or just to survive. But I feel like a caricature
of myself. I have nothing to do with blue notes. My business is in
recovering the sounds of my childhood, in the neighborhood of Mustardinha,
when the "repentists" (modern troubadours) of viola caipira and fiddle and
the pifaro (a type of flute) bands enchanted me' "
------------------------------------------------
From "Toque" magazine (Editora Tres). I made no revision, so forgive the
translation.
Luiz
bras...@my-deja.com
[...]
> He entered in groups of jazz that appeared in
> Recife, inpired by keyboardist Walter Wanderley, star of a nightclub
in the city, to follow the ways of Barney Kessel and Wes Montgomery.
The rest was trash. [...]
What year or period in time was that? That I know of, Walter was born
in Recife but left to SP when he was 15, and never returned for a
permanent assignmentin that city. I also never heard Walter playing NE
Brazilian music (frevo, xaxado, baião, forró, etc) with or without
jazz. Is there a way to get more info on this?
Carlos
Sinistro
So, I think what the text says is that, the groups he played were inspired
by Wanderley. At that time Heraldo was a Jazz guitarrist. Only after he met
Hermetto, and entered the Quarteto Novo he started to play the NE Music
(frevo, xaxado, baião, forró, etc).
What the text doens't make clear is what city Wanderley was a star. I think
there is a mistake here. Because it says that after he met Hermetto in
Recife he moved to Sao Paulo and we know that the albino Hermeto is
Paraibano. I think that the part about Wanderley, Hermeto and playing
American Music at Radio Jornal do comercio happened in Sao Paulo. Does
anyone have any information about it?
Luiz
<bras...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:87oia9$1i2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Carlos,
>
> So, I think what the text says is that, the groups he played were inspired
> by Wanderley. At that time Heraldo was a Jazz guitarrist. Only after he met
> Hermetto, and entered the Quarteto Novo he started to play the NE Music
> (frevo, xaxado, baião, forró, etc).
>
> What the text doens't make clear is what city Wanderley was a star. I think
> there is a mistake here. Because it says that after he met Hermetto in
> Recife he moved to Sao Paulo and we know that the albino Hermeto is
> Paraibano. I think that the part about Wanderley, Hermeto and playing
> American Music at Radio Jornal do comercio happened in Sao Paulo. Does
> anyone have any information about it?
In all the information I've read and been given so far, it does seem as
though Sao Paulo is the area where Walter worked the most--though he
also occasionally played in Rio, and other major cities.
Also, when Walter was still performing and recording in Brazil (before
his move to the U.S.), he did not restrict himself to playing only one
style of Brazilian music. In my interview, drummer Claudio Slon (who
worked with Dick Farney right before joining Walter's trio, btw)
specifically said :
"Walter was a very well known performer of Brazilian styles, so I never
considered playing with him, as I was a jazz drummer. But he thought
otherwise, and when my work with the jazz singer [Dick Farney] was over,
Walter invited me to join his trio."
[full interview can be read on Page 6 of my WW site]
Sinistro
correcting me.
Luiz
Sinistro <sinis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4yWn4.6901$RT4.1...@news3.mia...
Jeff Vorzimmer
in Recife but left to SP when he was 15, and never returned for a
permanent assignmentin that city. I also never heard Walter playing NE
Brazilian music (frevo, xaxado, baião, forró, etc) with or without
jazz. Is there a way to get more info on this?>>
Wanderley played forró-inspired melodies throughout his career. In fact the
opening cut of Moondreams (1969) is Asa Branca. You can't get any more
Northeastern than that, my friend!
Jeff Vorzimmer
bras...@my-deja.com
"Jeff Vorzimmer" wrote:
Sure. The wonderful Luiz Gonzaga's "Asa Branca" certainly is an anthem
on Brazilian Northeastern folklore. I've never heard him playing it and
will be looking forward to. I also never heard him talking -- though I
am pretty sure he would carry a heavy Brazilian Northeastern accent as
his music certainly did. His syncopated stacatto is typical of that
region. But Walter was absolutely unique.
bras...@my-deja.com
> I wonder if Jose Augusto Rafaelli could point out any other recording
ever done by this "Wanderly" pianist -- just too good to diasppear
after a first record. As far as I know -- and I was living in Rio at
that time -- that was Walter Wanderley who recorded with Milton Banana
in 1965, prior to moving to the US. The mispelling might have been on
purpose so as to protect him from law suits from another recording
company he had an exclusive contract with.
Empcds
>- that was Walter Wanderley who recorded with Milton Banana
One last time --- they are two different musicians. And the final proof is by
listening to the recordings. They sound VERY different which made me question
it in the first place.
Joe C.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> > I wonder if Jose Augusto Rafaelli could point out any other recording
> ever done by this "Wanderly" pianist -- just too good to diasppear
> after a first record. As far as I know -- and I was living in Rio at
> that time -- that was Walter Wanderley who recorded with Milton Banana
> in 1965, prior to moving to the US. The mispelling might have been on
> purpose so as to protect him from law suits from another recording
> company he had an exclusive contract with.
Carlos: The pianist "Wanderley" [single name] didn't disappear after a
single record. I know of at least two recordings he made with the
Banana Trio, and he probably made others. Also, on the Banana albums
themselves, it has the name spelled "Wanderley" right on the back of the
LP (across the top of the back cover), so it is not misspelled; it is
spelled exactly like Walter Wanderley's name, except there is no 2nd
name.
I confirmed the information about the two Wanderleys and who was on what
recordings through the Sombras music website in Brazil. They did the
checking right there and said that there really are two separate
musicians, they are not one and the same person--and that Walter never
played with the Banana Trio. This was important information for me to
have for the discography on the website as I certainly don't want to
display the wrong information or credits that belong to someone else!
Also, when Walter Wanderley appeared on other albums at the same time he
was contracted with Philips Brasil, he either didn't appear listed by
name on the album at all, or--in another case, used the name "Wa-Wa".
This is shown in example on Page 2 of my WW site where the listing for
the Brazilian "Samba Só" Fermata LP is:
"Samba Só, Wa-Wa E O Seu Conjunto" Fermata FB-86 (1965).
There are many examples of Brazilian albums that Walter actually played
on, but is not named/credited on because of the contract at the time
with Philips Brasil.
Regards,
--bj
The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html
bras...@my-deja.com
proof is by
> listening to the recordings. They sound VERY different which made me
question
> it in the first place.
>
a good attitude on a discussion group. It's not surprising at all to me
that WW sounded different with Milton Banana from his own recordings in
Brazil and later in the US. Other Brazilian musicians changed their
styles dramatically so as to get into the mainstream of the US market,
among them Sergio Mendes, Eumir Deodato, and even the early "one-
finger" piano playing by Jobim.
bras...@my-deja.com
(B.J. (Barbara J.) Major) wrote:
> <>
> Barbara, I remember quite well that it was a very common practice
among Brazilian musicians back in the 60's -- don't know if it still
is. Frustrated with their regular recording companies that insisted in
limiting their exposures, several musicians recorded under fictitious
names on independent lables. One of them, as I recall quite well, was
the late US sax player Booker Pittman (father of Rio-born vocalist
Eliana Pittman) who lived in Brazil until his death in the 80's.
preto7051
> > Barbara, I remember quite well that it was a very common practice
> among Brazilian musicians back in the 60's -- don't know if it still
> is. Frustrated with their regular recording companies that insisted in
> limiting their exposures, several musicians recorded under fictitious
> names on independent lables. One of them, as I recall quite well, was
> the late US sax player Booker Pittman (father of Rio-born vocalist
> Eliana Pittman) who lived in Brazil until his death in the 80's.
>
> Carlos
>
I'm brazilian, a bossa nova lover and I can affirm for you that was 2
different players. One was the great WW and the other one is a
underrated pianist named only Wanderley. Underrated, in my opinion,
because he was the better in the Milton Banana Trio. Please, Mr Banana
drives the drums as a soldier in a machine gun, Guara, on the bass,
best not to comment on him, then remains the wonderful piano played by
Wanderley. He recorded some solo records, one was issued by the
Imperial label, and, as well as great Luiz Carlos Vinhas, it just
issued records with music of successes to survive. For speaking in this
subject, one friend of mine, who lives in Rio, commented that Meirelles
is going by financial difficulties for health problems and he is
broken, selling your own records for collectors, that cost very
expensive, to buy medicines. This only happens in Brasil !!!
Good luck for everybody, I really love this forum.
ps for Ms Barbara: Sergio Ximenes stay here in my home and we had
talking about Walter Wanderley. A big hug from Brasil for you.
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
P7051
bras...@my-deja.com
>
> Hi there,
> I'm brazilian, a bossa nova lover and I can affirm for you that was 2
> different players. One was the great WW and the other one is a
> underrated pianist named only Wanderley. Underrated, in my opinion,
> because he was the better in the Milton Banana Trio. Please, Mr Banana
> drives the drums as a soldier in a machine gun, Guara, on the bass,
> best not to comment on him, then remains the wonderful piano played by
> Wanderley. He recorded some solo records, one was issued by the
> Imperial label, and, as well as great Luiz Carlos Vinhas, it just
> issued records with music of successes to survive.
I kind of pushed a bit this Wanderley versus WW issue as I know that
some great Brazilian musicians that were developing top quality work in
Rio in the 60's later on gave up their pursuit of excellence and bowed
to please the masses in Brazil, the US and elsewhere. Sergio Mendes is
just one of them. A great pianist, Sergio lowered his standards,
developed a hibrid whatever in his "Brazil 60 whatever" ensemble and is
now probably laughing all the way to the bank, from his castles in LA
and Barra-Rio, his collection of Rolls-Royces and Mercedes limos.
For speaking in this
> subject, one friend of mine, who lives in Rio, commented that
Meirelles
> is going by financial difficulties for health problems and he is
> broken, selling your own records for collectors, that cost very
> expensive, to buy medicines. This only happens in Brasil !!!
That's unfortunately true and was my original point in some other
thread ("Is there a market for the best?"). Because Meireles was one of
the best, an outstanding musician who pursued artistic excellence all
the way and is now paying a high price for it. Paulo Moura is another
one. How is he doing? And Juarez Araujo? What happened to Bebeto? And
L. Carlos Vinhas? Can you tell us about Eli Joori?
Carlos
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> For speaking in this
> subject, one friend of mine, who lives in Rio, commented that Meirelles
> is going by financial difficulties for health problems and he is
> broken, selling your own records for collectors, that cost very
> expensive, to buy medicines. This only happens in Brasil !!!
No, unfortunately--it doesn't happen only in Brasil. There are a lot of
us here in the U.S. who don't currently have health insurance because we
are either self-employed and cannot afford it--or we work for small
companies who don't offer coverage as a work benefit and can't afford to
purchase it on our own. Very depressing. But that is a whole 'nother
subject for another newsgroup!
> ps for Ms Barbara: Sergio Ximenes stay here in my home and we had
> talking about Walter Wanderley. A big hug from Brasil for you.
OH!!! Sergio has been just wonderful and I wish I could meet him in
person to thank him for ALL the tremendous help he has been with my WW
site and for all the support he's given me. Please give him my best!!
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I kind of pushed a bit this Wanderley versus WW issue as I know that
> some great Brazilian musicians that were developing top quality work in
> Rio in the 60's later on gave up their pursuit of excellence and bowed
> to please the masses in Brazil, the US and elsewhere. Sergio Mendes is
> just one of them. A great pianist, Sergio lowered his standards,
> developed a hibrid whatever in his "Brazil 60 whatever" ensemble and is
> now probably laughing all the way to the bank, from his castles in LA
> and Barra-Rio, his collection of Rolls-Royces and Mercedes limos.
That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it--but there are
many Sergio Mendez fans in the U.S. who liked what he did here with the
Brazil '66 and later '77 groups. I have never followed SM's work only
because I was too busy following the work of other artists.
I have mixed feelings about whether an artist should change their style
(or not) to "please the masses" and make money in another country. I
guess I am just fortunate that when it comes to WW, I love what he did
in Brazil AND in the U.S., both. For over thirty years I never heard
any of his Brazilian recordings and now that I own some of them, I can
honestly say that I have developed a great love for how they sound and
that I enjoy hearing them every bit as much as his U.S. recordings. I
can understand why Creed Taylor wanted his arrangements different for
the U.S. audience, but at the same time I think that it's wrong to ask
an artist to "adapt" to a different audience (with all due respect to
Mr. Taylor who is without a doubt, a fantastic producer of jazz albums).
Carlos, I sent you email at your posted address about something you
mentioned a few weeks ago. Did you receive the email? Please let me
know.
Sinistro
disconnected from real Brazilian music and sounded very fake for most of us.
It is a price one pay when put money above art. I think Mendes will allways
be remembered not for the good things, but for the cheesy music he did with
those groups. Despite the fact that he got really rich, he will never have
the respect that a guy like Jobim had.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it--but there are
Sinistro
bad things are a priviledge of the "Tupiniquins". When I say something like
you just did, people accuse me of being "Anti-American". Well, I am not. But
I have to say that the US have many problems and many people, although
employed have no work benefits. I am fortunate to have at this moment
excelent benefits, but three years ago I was left with a hospital bill of
$10.000 because of a bleeding ulcer that almost kill me. In Brazil, at
least, I could be treated in a public hospital for free.
Sorry for keeping the "off-topic" thread.
Luiz
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> No, unfortunately--it doesn't happen only in Brasil. There are a lot of
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Brazilians think that their country is the worst thing in the world and
> that bad things are a priviledge of the "Tupiniquins". When I say
> something like you just did, people accuse me of being "Anti-American".
I don't know why they would; it's the truth. I feel very free to talk
about it because I am an American and right now I have no health
insurance provided by any employer for whom I do any work. It's the
first time in my life I've been in this situation and it's very scary,
but right now there is nothing I can do about it.
> I am fortunate to
> have at this moment excelent benefits, but three years ago I was left
> with a hospital bill of $10.000 because of a bleeding ulcer that almost
> kill me. In Brazil, at least, I could be treated in a public hospital
> for free.
I am hoping that someday we have the same thing here. But I am afraid
it will be a long time coming because there are those in the U.S. that
have a very negative view of socialized medicine and I'm sure the powers
that be will try to keep it from becoming a reality.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I kind of pushed a bit this Wanderley versus WW issue as I know that
> some great Brazilian musicians that were developing top quality work in
> Rio in the 60's later on gave up their pursuit of excellence and bowed
> to please the masses in Brazil, the US and elsewhere.
But those are two entirely different subjects; I'm still trying to
figure out how you can justify denying that there are two musicians with
the name "Wanderley" in the name of speaking out against those who "gave
up their pursuit of excellence and bowed to please the masses". . .
Kevin Martin
>The problem with the American work of Sergio Mendes is that it was quite
>disconnected from real Brazilian music and sounded very fake for most of us.
>It is a price one pay when put money above art. I think Mendes will allways
>be remembered not for the good things
Like saving a few of his fellow musicians' lives? I don't think that will
be forgotten.
>, but for the cheesy music he did with
>those groups.
I wouldn't know a blessed thing about brasilian music if Mendes hadn't
"popularized" the likes of Edu Lobo and Dory Caymmi. I can forgive him for
using the A&M studio orchestra string section. I can even forgive him for
the Lani Hall lyrics on some of them.
> Despite the fact that he got really rich, he will never have
>the respect that a guy like Jobim had.
He'll never have the respect that Jesus Christ had, either. That hardly
makes him a failure by any HUMAN standard. :-)
Believe it or not, I'm sort of agreeing with you; perhaps he could have done
better. But I don't think he has done anything to be ashamed of, except
perhaps that damnable infatuation with Stevie Wonder. Ick!
bras...@my-deja.com
>
>
> figure out how you can justify denying that there are two musicians
with
> the name "Wanderley" in the name of speaking out against those
who "gave
> up their pursuit of excellence and bowed to please the masses". . .
>
1. Milton Banana never had a standard combo of his own for too long.
Like other Brazilian drummers (Dom Um Romão, Robertinho Silva), he
assembled some top musicians in recording sessions and shared his
copywrights with them
2. IMHO this Wanderley was too good to be ignored after just a couple
records in Rio at that time.
3. It's true that WW and Wanderley play in different styles. But so
does Sergio Mendes before and after Brazil 66.
IMHO Walter Wanderely downgraded his immense musical talent and
artistic potential so as to satisfy US market demands. I know this
pressure is too strong, too powerful and is out there all the time. And
it is so obvious that one does not need any inside information to feel
it.
The same has affected the works of nother great pianist/keyboardist,
Cesar Camargo Mariano. But Cesar at least does some of his best on the
side and apparently doesn't care if it sells or not. This is just my
humble and honest opinion and I may be wrong as usual.
JMKAUFFMAN
though I understand their basic point. As a professional musician who has a
deep and abiding love for Brazilian music, I must echo Kevin's assertion that
for those of us in a certain age group (and we know who we are!!) it was
Sergio's work more than any of the other "popular" Brazilians which opened the
door to explore the incredible variety of Brasil. Like him or hate him, call
him inauthentic if you will (and, believe me, I cringe at some of his post-66
work), there was simply nothing like him on US radio during his halcyon period
of 66-69. There, I've vented, thank you! P.S. I just scored the Warner
Caymmi/Girls from Bahia LP--God forbid, it has STRINGS (that's a joke for you
humor-impaired!).
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> 1. Milton Banana never had a standard combo of his own for too long.
> Like other Brazilian drummers (Dom Um Romão, Robertinho Silva), he
> assembled some top musicians in recording sessions and shared his
> copywrights with them
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything discussed before...
> 2. IMHO this Wanderley was too good to be ignored after just a couple
> records in Rio at that time.
No one said he was ignored after that. But there is so little
documented about him that most people don't know what else he's done.
Maybe he made a decision not to record any longer and just play live
concerts or do something else in his life. Wouldn't be the first time
someone made a career 'about face'.
> IMHO Walter Wanderely downgraded his immense musical talent and
> artistic potential so as to satisfy US market demands. I know this
> pressure is too strong, too powerful and is out there all the time. And
> it is so obvious that one does not need any inside information to feel
> it.
Just know that WW himself isn't responsible for that happening (and
didn't look for that to happen, by the way), although he obviously had
to agree to it in order to record in the U.S. Unlike many other
artists, Walter didn't come to the U.S. on his own, seeking fame and
fortune--he came at the invitation of Creed Taylor (who was pursuaded to
send for him at Tony Benett's suggestion). You can say what you like
about Walter's arrangements being 'watered down' or whatever for the
U.S. market, but know this--that it gave him exposure to a brand new
audience that he would have *never* received otherwise.
Also know that most people in the U.S. (still) have no idea that
Walter's arrangements sounded any differently while recording in Brazil
than in the U.S. Why? Because there have been so few of his Brazil LPs
ever released in the U.S., compared to the total number of albums he
recorded in Brazil. Personally, I believe that the U.S. audience would
have embraced the Brazilian material, too--given enough time and enough
exposure to it. Remember, I was "one of those people" who thought for
years that the entire scope of Walter's playing could be found within
the U.S. albums. And I was perfectly satisfied with that because that's
all I knew. Obviously I would not have thought that if I had access to
his Brazilian LPs years ago.
bras...@my-deja.com
> many Sergio Mendez fans in the U.S. who liked what he did here with
the
> Brazil '66 and later '77 groups. I have never followed SM's work only
> because I was too busy following the work of other artists.
>
> I have mixed feelings about whether an artist should change their
style
> (or not) to "please the masses" and make money in another country. I
> guess I am just fortunate that when it comes to WW, I love what he did
> in Brazil AND in the U.S., both. For over thirty years I never heard
> any of his Brazilian recordings and now that I own some of them, I can
> honestly say that I have developed a great love for how they sound and
> that I enjoy hearing them every bit as much as his U.S. recordings. I
> can understand why Creed Taylor wanted his arrangements different for
> the U.S. audience, but at the same time I think that it's wrong to ask
> an artist to "adapt" to a different audience (with all due respect to
> Mr. Taylor who is without a doubt, a fantastic producer of jazz
albums).
>
> Carlos, I sent you email at your posted address about something you
> mentioned a few weeks ago. Did you receive the email? Please let me
> know.
> No, Barbara, I haven't got your e-mail. I know it is very hard for
anyone not closely attached to the Brazilian culture in general to have
a good grasp of some issues such as this one. I can't resist now to
share with you guys a true story (or folk tale with all legal
disclaimers, please) I heard in the late 60's from reputable sources
from Rio (I was in NYC at that time).
A group of musicians was in a party late at night when Vinicius
approached Sergio, finger-pointed him and started criticizing: "You
sold your soul..." upon which Sergio punched him down on the floor.
Vinicius was, well... drunk as he used to be all nights after 11PM, up
until he collapsed and was carried home and put in bed by his buddy,
Toquinho. Sergio had to be protected by his security guards (always
with him) from the rage of other guests who were revolted at his coward
act of beating an old and drunk man, the peaceful and lovable Vinicius,
incapable of killing a fly. The party ended abruptly with that incident
and Sergio was put on a blacklist as his music would never again be
played on Brazilian radios.
A few days later, Vinicius emerged with a gorgeous poem with music
written by Carlos Lyra, and it became a hit in Brazil, "Sabe Você" (Do
you know), although very few people ever heard the true (or tale) story
behind those lyrics. Here is a transcription of these lyrics and a
quick translation below:
Sabe você (Vinicius de Moraes - Carlos Lyra)
Você é muito mais que eu sou
Está bem mais rico do que estou
Mas o que eu sei, você não sabe
E antes que o seu poder acabe
Eu vou contar como e por quê
Eu sei, eu sei mais que você
Sabe você o que é o amor?
Não sabe, eu sei
Sabe o que é um trovador?
Não sabe, eu sei
Sabe andar de madrugada
Tendo a amada pela mão
Sabe gostar, qual sabe nada
Sabe não
Você sabe o que é uma flor?
Não sabe, eu sei
Você já chorou de dor?
Pois eu chorei
Já chorei de mal de amor
Já chorei de compaixão
Quanto a você, meu camarada
Qual o que, não sabe não
E é por isso que eu lhe digo
E com razão
Que mais vale ser mendigo
Que ladrão
Sei que um dia há de chegar
E isso seja quando for
Em que você pra mendigar
Só mesmo amor
Você pode ser ladrão
Quanto quizer
Mas não rouba o coração
De uma mulher
Você não tem alegria
Nunca fez uma canção
Por isso, a minha poesia
Ah-Ah... Você não rouba, não
Do you Know
You are more than I am
You are richer than I am
But what I know you don't
And before your power fades
I am going to show how and why
I know, I know better than you do
Do you know what love is?
You don't. I do.
Do you know what a troubadour is?
You don't. I do.
Do you know how to walk at dawn
Taking your love by her hands?
Do you what is to care for?
I bet you don't
Do you know what a flower is?
You don't. I do
Have you ever weeped from pain?
For I have
I've weeped from pain of love
I've weeped from compassion
As to you, my comrade
I bet you haven't
And that's why I tell you
And with good reason
That's better be a beggar
Than a thief
I know that there will come a day
And whenever that may happen
When you will be begging
Just for sake of love
You can be a thief
As much as you want
But you will never steal
The heart of a woman
You have no joy
Never wrote a song
That's why my poetry...
Ah-Ah... you won't steal it, you won't
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I know it is very hard for
> anyone not closely attached to the Brazilian culture in general to have
> a good grasp of some issues such as this one.
I know you are not trying to be mean-spirited, but I *really do*
understand what you have been saying on this subject. I don't believe I
have to be Brazilian to understand your feelings on it.
WW could have made the decision to remain in Brazil, remain very famous
there, and not change a thing. He chose, instead, to come to the U.S.
I'm glad he did, because I simply wouldn't have known about him
otherwise. I don't hold the fact that he made a lot of money while in
the U.S. against him; (more power to him!). Money does not have to
diminish talent or corrupt one's value system. He wasn't the first one
to leave home and take a chance on something else waiting elsewhere, and
certainly won't be the last to do so.
I don't happen to look at things from just a financial perspective where
music is concerned. It's the music that is important, above all. WW
could have come to the U.S. and been a big flop with the audience here
and not made a dime. I'm just glad that was not the case.
People have to be free to decide what is best FOR THEM. No one can make
that decision for them. And no one should hold it against them,
whatever they decide.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I never said one has to be Brazilian. I said (and you can check
> above) "one has to be attached to Brazilian culture in general" whether
> you are American, Russian or even an ET. Sorry, but it seems you still
> didn't get my point.
Then it depends what you mean by "being attached to the Brazilian
culture". I've been following/enjoying/appreciating Brazilian music for
quite a few years now, so I think that I am "attached" to the culture.
But that may differ greatly from what YOU think "being attached" means.
I got your point, and it is still coming through that you
think/believe/whatever that if you are not a Brazilian, you can't be
expected to appreciate the points you are making. I don't happen to
think that is true.
> He could have come to the US and done his best as Jobim did, being
> faithful to his art. I think he could have made even more money than he
> made. Unfortunately, he didn't have Jobim's ntellectual stature and
> personality to argue with, and get his points across with US producers.
> I think everybody lost with that.
Jobim recorded with *lots* of Americans while he was here. Under the
same producer, too as WW (Creed Taylor) for both his "Wave", "Tide" and
"Stone Flower" albums. Also with people like Nelson Riddle, Stan Getz,
Frank Sinatra, etc.--with American arrangers too, most of the time
(except for the few albums w/Claus Ogerman). I'm sure Jobim's U.S. LPs
sound nothing like the earlier ones he recorded in Brazil, but that's
still no reason to criticize them! Things need to be judged on their
own merits or failures, not in comparison to things done before or
after.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> >You can say what you like
> > about Walter's arrangements being 'watered down' or whatever for the
> > U.S. market, but know this--that it gave him exposure to a brand new
> > audience that he would have *never* received otherwise.
>
> That's the crux of our disagreement. I don't think US audiences should
> be downgraded.
I think you should read the liner notes to "Samba Swing!" which are
printed in their entirety on Page 6 of my WW site. It tells the whole
story of why Creed Taylor had the WW Trio record what they did in the
style that they did for that first U.S. album, why the Summer Samba tune
was picked for the first single, etc. etc. And what happened afterward
when the Trio insisted that they do things their own way when the album
Cheganca was recorded. It's all very relevant to what you are saying.
> I had many friends in NYC who heard my Brazilian collection in the late
> 60's. I remember very well that 9 out of 10 preferred the original
> Brazilian recordings not only of WW but many other performers. And the
> reason for such "an adaptation to the US audience" has been a big
> mystery for me since then.
I think one of the reasons is that the general public in the U.S. is not
equal in taste or appreciation to people who have studied music or know
music better than the average person. True musicians and people who
have studied music don't have a problem with hearing new styles from
other countries. They have more of an open mind. But the same can't be
said for the average public which is MUCH more conservative in what they
will accept in the way of what is looked at as non-traditional music.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Barbara, I guess "being attached" to Brazilian culture is knowing enough not
> to try to reason with Brazilians on certain issues such as politics,
> football and Sergio Mendes.
But I didn't talk about (nor did I even mention) *any* of those three
issues...!
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Well, how do you explain the huge success of Girl From Ipanema during the
> 60's?
Because it was presented to the American public in a way that was
"acceptable" to their ears. It was a very quiet, intimate arrangement
of only a few instruments accompanying the vocal. Plus, it had on it
U.S. musicians who were already familiar to Americans, such as Stan
Getz.
> B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > I think one of the reasons is that the general public in the U.S. is not
> > equal in taste or appreciation to people who have studied music or know
> > music better than the average person. True musicians and people who
> > have studied music don't have a problem with hearing new styles from
> > other countries. They have more of an open mind. But the same can't be
> > said for the average public which is MUCH more conservative in what they
> > will accept in the way of what is looked at as non-traditional music.
> >
> > Regards,
> > --bj
> > The Walter Wanderley Pictorial Discography:
> > http://members.xoom.com/bjbear71/Wanderley/main.html
> > http://bjbear3.freeservers.com/Wanderley/main.html
--
bj
--Come visit the Home of the Classic TV Photo Galleries!
<http://bjbear.freeservers.com>
bras...@my-deja.com
> <bras...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > I know it is very hard for
> > anyone not closely attached to the Brazilian culture in general to
have
> > a good grasp of some issues such as this one.
>
> I know you are not trying to be mean-spirited, but I *really do*
> understand what you have been saying on this subject. I don't
believe I
> have to be Brazilian to understand your feelings on it.
I never said one has to be Brazilian. I said (and you can check
above) "one has to be attached to Brazilian culture in general" whether
you are American, Russian or even an ET. Sorry, but it seems you still
didn't get my point.
>
> WW could have made the decision to remain in Brazil, remain very
famous
> there, and not change a thing. He chose, instead, to come to the U.S.
> I'm glad he did, because I simply wouldn't have known about him
> otherwise. I don't hold the fact that he made a lot of money while in
> the U.S. against him; (more power to him!). Money does not have to
> diminish talent or corrupt one's value system. He wasn't the first
one
> to leave home and take a chance on something else waiting elsewhere,
and
> certainly won't be the last to do so.
He could have come to the US and done his best as Jobim did, being
faithful to his art. I think he could have made even more money than he
made. Unfortunately, he didn't have Jobim's ntellectual stature and
personality to argue with, and get his points across with US producers.
I think everybody lost with that.
>
> I don't happen to look at things from just a financial perspective
where
> music is concerned. It's the music that is important, above all. WW
> could have come to the U.S. and been a big flop with the audience here
> and not made a dime. I'm just glad that was not the case.
>
> People have to be free to decide what is best FOR THEM. No one can
make
> that decision for them. And no one should hold it against them,
> whatever they decide.
I have nothing against money or financial success. Actually, the other
way around.
bras...@my-deja.com
> documented about him that most people don't know what else he's done.
> Maybe he made a decision not to record any longer and just play live
> concerts or do something else in his life. Wouldn't be the first time
> someone made a career 'about face'.
That could happen. I lived in Rio up to 1965 and although I was never
in the music business, knew virtually everybody who was professionally
engaged in Bossa Nova, many of them personally. Never heard of any
Wanderley pianist.
>
> > IMHO Walter Wanderely downgraded his immense musical talent and
> > artistic potential so as to satisfy US market demands. I know this
> > pressure is too strong, too powerful and is out there all the time.
And
> > it is so obvious that one does not need any inside information to
feel
> > it.
>
> Just know that WW himself isn't responsible for that happening (and
> didn't look for that to happen, by the way), although he obviously had
> to agree to it in order to record in the U.S. Unlike many other
> artists, Walter didn't come to the U.S. on his own, seeking fame and
> fortune--he came at the invitation of Creed Taylor (who was pursuaded
to
> send for him at Tony Benett's suggestion). You can say what you like
> about Walter's arrangements being 'watered down' or whatever for the
> U.S. market, but know this--that it gave him exposure to a brand new
> audience that he would have *never* received otherwise.
That's the crux of our disagreement. I don't think US audiences should
be downgraded.
>
> Also know that most people in the U.S. (still) have no idea that
> Walter's arrangements sounded any differently while recording in
Brazil
> than in the U.S. Why? Because there have been so few of his Brazil
LPs
> ever released in the U.S., compared to the total number of albums he
> recorded in Brazil. Personally, I believe that the U.S. audience
would
> have embraced the Brazilian material, too--given enough time and
enough
> exposure to it. Remember, I was "one of those people" who thought for
> years that the entire scope of Walter's playing could be found within
> the U.S. albums. And I was perfectly satisfied with that because
that's
> all I knew. Obviously I would not have thought that if I had access
to
> his Brazilian LPs years ago.
I had many friends in NYC who heard my Brazilian collection in the late
60's. I remember very well that 9 out of 10 preferred the original
Brazilian recordings not only of WW but many other performers. And the
reason for such "an adaptation to the US audience" has been a big
mystery for me since then.
Regards.
Sinistro
"mark" in everything he did. I am sorry, but to compare ACJ with W.W. or
Sergio Mendes is a sacrilege.
I think what Carlos is saying is that making easy, cheap and chesy music in
order to make money faster shows how much integrity and love for his work a
musician have. To make such concessions sometimes is like selling ones soul.
I don't hear W.W. for the last 20 years and what I've heard from him is his
old Brazilian work. So I cannot say much. However, as for Sergio Mendes
music, I think it is disgusting! Something between Kenny G. and Christopher
Chanderlain.
Everybody is entitled to an oppinion and people are free to enjoy tacky
music as much as they want. But I think we should use this space wisely and
start discussing about serious music. Why waste time in pointless
discussions about guys such as Sergio Mendes, that sold their souls and
contributed so much for the empoverishment and deterioration of Brazilian
music, while we can talk about Hermeto Pascoal, Toninho Horta, Joao
Pernanbuco, Jobim, Gismonty, Luiz Eca, Villa-Lobos, Ary Barroso, Helio
Delmiro, Baden, Canhoto and many other great artists that made personal
sacrifices in order to make contributions for the enrichment and improvement
of our music.
Luiz
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> Jobim recorded with *lots* of Americans while he was here. Under the
> same producer, too as WW (Creed Taylor) for both his "Wave", "Tide" and
> "Stone Flower" albums. Also with people like Nelson Riddle, Stan Getz,
> Frank Sinatra, etc.--with American arrangers too, most of the time
> (except for the few albums w/Claus Ogerman). I'm sure Jobim's U.S. LPs
> sound nothing like the earlier ones he recorded in Brazil, but that's
> still no reason to criticize them! Things need to be judged on their
> own merits or failures, not in comparison to things done before or
> after.
>
Sinistro
60's?
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> I think one of the reasons is that the general public in the U.S. is not
> equal in taste or appreciation to people who have studied music or know
> music better than the average person. True musicians and people who
> have studied music don't have a problem with hearing new styles from
> other countries. They have more of an open mind. But the same can't be
> said for the average public which is MUCH more conservative in what they
> will accept in the way of what is looked at as non-traditional music.
>
Jeff Vorzimmer
to try to reason with Brazilians on certain issues such as politics,
anecdote that Carlos shared with us seem very plausible. But some of the
lesser-known works of Mendes here in the States and in Europe are small
masterpieces. Both the Brasil 65 albums for example. I think the live album
is one of the greatest performances of the bossa nova.
Jeff
bras...@my-deja.com
(B.J. (Barbara J.) Major) wrote:
>
>
> Jobim recorded with *lots* of Americans while he was here. Under the
> same producer, too as WW (Creed Taylor) for both his "Wave", "Tide"
and
> "Stone Flower" albums. Also with people like Nelson Riddle, Stan
Getz,
> Frank Sinatra, etc.--with American arrangers too, most of the time
> (except for the few albums w/Claus Ogerman).
Jobim was authentic all the way and NEVER changed his style in Brazil
or in the US. I am sure you will be hearing from Jobim fans as this has
been discussed before and there is extensive data readily available on
the net and primarily on his site. Ogerman is one he recorded the most
in the US, and they had lots of things in common. Tide, Stone Flower
and Sinatra were arranged by Eumir Deodato.
I'm sure Jobim's U.S. LPs
> sound nothing like the earlier ones he recorded in Brazil, but that's
> still no reason to criticize them! Things need to be judged on their
> own merits or failures, not in comparison to things done before or
> after.
I was talking about authenticity and character. And that was just my
opinion based on some real facts.
Jeff Vorzimmer
not
>> to try to reason with Brazilians on certain issues such as politics,
>> football and Sergio Mendes.
>But I didn't talk about (nor did I even mention) *any* of those three
>issues...!
But ya did Blanche . . . You took the bait the when you said:
<<That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it--but there are
many Sergio Mendez fans in the U.S. who liked what he did here with the
Brazil '66 and later '77 groups. I have never followed SM's work only
because I was too busy following the work of other artists.>>
But getting back to the subject--Walter Wanderley's work in the U.S. should
not be discredited by Americans or Brasilians, particularly his two CTI/A&M
albums, which were the best work of his career. And, as I said in a previous
post to this thread, I think Sergio Mendes' Brasil 65 work was some of the
best of his career, before he went what I call "Pop Tropicalia" with Brasil
66.
Jeff
Sinistro
and because it had elements of American Music? Geez! And I was stupid
enough to think that we ended this discussion many posts ago.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:2000030322...@pool-207-205-170-48.snfr.grid.net...
> Sinistro <sinis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, how do you explain the huge success of Girl From Ipanema during
the
> > 60's?
>
> Because it was presented to the American public in a way that was
> "acceptable" to their ears. It was a very quiet, intimate arrangement
> of only a few instruments accompanying the vocal. Plus, it had on it
> U.S. musicians who were already familiar to Americans, such as Stan
> Getz.
>
>
Sinistro
Jeff Vorzimmer <jvorz...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VG1w4.4176$w81.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> Barbara, I guess "being attached" to Brazilian culture is knowing enough
not
> to try to reason with Brazilians on certain issues such as politics,
> football and Sergio Mendes.
Yeah, and a good advice for Brazilians is to avoid discussing Brazilian
music with Americans who are "cheesy music" lovers.
>Vinicius could be an ass when he drank so the
> anecdote that Carlos shared with us seem very plausible. But some of the
> lesser-known works of Mendes here in the States and in Europe are small
> masterpieces. Both the Brasil 65 albums for example. I think the live
album
> is one of the greatest performances of the bossa nova.
Vinicios was a God. So, "DO NOT USE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN".
"Masterpieces" of Sergio Mendes? Oh my! I've heard the same about Kenny G.
> Jeff
>
>
bras...@my-deja.com
"Jeff Vorzimmer" wrote:
> Barbara, I guess "being attached" to Brazilian culture is knowing
enough not
> to try to reason with Brazilians on certain issues such as politics,
> football and Sergio Mendes. Vinicius could be an ass when he drank so
the
> anecdote that Carlos shared with us seem very plausible. But some of
the
> lesser-known works of Mendes here in the States and in Europe are
small
> masterpieces. Both the Brasil 65 albums for example. I think the live
album
> is one of the greatest performances of the bossa nova.
>
Jeff, if you like Sergio Mendes and want to check what I meant you
should relisten to his pre-66 works such as:
Sergio Mendes & Bossa Rio, 1962
Sergio Mendes The Swinger From Rio, 1963
Cannonball Aderley with Bossa Rio "Quiet Nights", 1964
Live at El Matador, 1965
After that he apparently met Herp Albert and turned on a $multimillion
making machine with a hybrid that had very little to do with Brazilian
music. This was interpreted by many well-informed Brazilians, including
the humble your truly, as deceiving to both Brazilians and Americans.
WW never went that far. IMHO he just took it a bit more easily. Jobim
never changed: he just grew up doing his best.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> But getting back to the subject--Walter Wanderley's work in the U.S. should
> not be discredited by Americans or Brasilians, particularly his two CTI/A&M
> albums, which were the best work of his career.
(FYI, my SM remark specifically addressed how *others* liked his U.S.
work; I've already mentioned that I never followed him because I was too
busy following other people. So that ends what I have to say about Mr.
Mendes.)
OK, now that we've got that cleared up, you should be aware that not
everyone is in love with those two A&M/CTI WW albums. While the tracks
that are on them are beautiful orchestrations in and of themselves, they
do precious little to show off WW's playing. In fact, the only REAL
solo he has is "Surfboard" on "When It Was Done". I am not trashing
these two LPs, but if someone tells me that they want to hear definitive
WW playing, I don't point them to the A&M albums. If they have access
to only U.S. albums, I point them to "Cheganca" (Verve) instead. For
me, the essence of WW is the Original WW Trio sound.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Ogerman is one he recorded the most
> in the US, and they had lots of things in common. Tide, Stone Flower
> and Sinatra were arranged by Eumir Deodato.
I *didn't* associate Ogerman with Tide and Stone Flower; I associated
Creed Taylor, the producer--with all three albums. It's the link to
Taylor that is the important one here as it relates to Walter Wanderley,
that is what you seem to not understand. If Taylor was influential in
creating differing arrangements for the Wanderley Trio than they were
used to playing in Brazil, I'm sure he also had influences over Jobim's
recordings as well. You can deny that all you want, but it simply would
not make sense for him to influence the style of Wanderley's
arrangements and not Jobim's, too.
Ogerman arranged Jobim's "Urubu", some of the Warner Bros. LPs that
Jobim did, "The Composer of Desafinado Plays" (Verve) for Jobim, as well
as arranged and conducted the first Jobim/Sinatra LP (Francis Albert
Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim) - only the *second* one (Sinatra and
Company) was partly arranged by Deodato (the other part was arranged by
Don Costa).
Now, all this aside--do the Jobim albums that Taylor influenced/was the
producer of--make them less valid or less musical than any other albums
that Jobim recorded? For me, absolutely not. And the same is true with
all the Taylor-produced albums that WW did. Because you don't like how
WW had his style changed/influenced/altered in the U.S. doesn't make
them less musical or invalidate him as an artist in some way. It's just
a different style of arrangements that were used. According to Claudio
Slon, the "Cheganca" album was very authentic in the way of getting back
to the true "heavier" Brazilian sound after "Rain Forest" was recorded.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> There we go again. So, Bossa Nova became what it is because of Stan Getz
> and because it had elements of American Music?
I never said that (though many experts have debated on exactly what the
influence of jazz was on bossa nova, I won't comment on that).
Americans like Stan Getz (and Charlie Byrd) *helped to popularize* bossa
nova music within the U.S. There simply is no denying that. The
success and popularity of the "Jazz Samba" and "Getz/Gilberto" LPs
illustrated that.
bras...@my-deja.com
I frankly don't see any producer influence on Jobim's work in Brazil
versus US as I can see in Walter's. I remember Jobim and Ogerman works
have been discussed in this NG a few months ago and there was more than
one close connection to Jobim in Brazil that pointed out that several
of the songs that Ogerman took credit for in Jobim's US recordings had
been previously recorded by Jobim in Brazil with exactly the same
score. Nothing against Ogerman, mind you, he is really a great arranger
and conductor. My point is that I don't see any downgrading on Jobim's
work in the US as I see it, to some extent, in Walter's. Actually, the
other way around: his sophistication increased. I am sure you will hear
many further specific details from Jobim's crowd. Just wait and see.
bras...@my-deja.com
>
> No need to radicalize, my friend. Taste is taste. You probably didn't
have a chance -- as you were not even born at the time -- to hear
Sergio jamming at the Beco das Garrafas, as I did when I was very
young. But you can hear his early work that has been shown on the air
by Dennis Miller. That dreamy piano with Cannonball Aderley that has
been playing steadly throughout the past several in many tracks, is
Sergio Mendes'. Hard to believe, uh?
Sinistro
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>You can deny that all you want, but it simply would
> not make sense for him to influence the style of Wanderley's
> arrangements and not Jobim's, too.
The difference is that Jobim was a maestro and his music influenced the
world. The producers here have little or no importance at all.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I frankly don't see any producer influence on Jobim's work in Brazil
> versus US as I can see in Walter's. I remember Jobim and Ogerman works
> have been discussed in this NG a few months ago and there was more than
> one close connection to Jobim in Brazil that pointed out that several
> of the songs that Ogerman took credit for in Jobim's US recordings had
> been previously recorded by Jobim in Brazil with exactly the same
> score. Nothing against Ogerman, mind you, he is really a great arranger
> and conductor. My point is that I don't see any downgrading on Jobim's
> work in the US as I see it, to some extent, in Walter's. Actually, the
> other way around: his sophistication increased. I am sure you will hear
> many further specific details from Jobim's crowd. Just wait and see.
Many people would also say that WW's "sophistication" increased with the
additional exposure and additional audience he gained when coming to and
recording in the U.S. And remember that we are referencing *Creed
Taylor* here, not Ogerman--as far as producer is concerned.
Jeff Vorzimmer
>music with Americans who are "cheesy music" lovers.
Being neither American nor Brasilian myself may give me a little objectivity
and I would say you shouldn't dismiss Mendes' American work (or Wanderley's)
out of hand. You might want to actually listen to the Brasil 65 allbums
(Capitol & Atlantic).
>Vinicios was a God. So, "DO NOT USE THE LORD'S NAME IN VAIN".
The last time I was in Brazil (a few months ago), Vincius had not yet been
elevated to the status of God (or maybe you mean an orixá). They just named
a street after him in Rio. Diplomat, poet, musician . . . yes. A great man .
. . possibly. A drunk--definitely.
Jeff
Jeff Vorzimmer
>Sergio Mendes The Swinger From Rio, 1963
>Cannonball Aderley with Bossa Rio "Quiet Nights", 1964
>Live at El Matador, 1965
Yes, I have these albums and these are exactly the work I'm speaking of when
I say people should not dismiss all of his American work! You can add the
Brasil 65 Capitol album to this list as well.
Jeff
Sinistro
How about all the trash that he did after that? Sorry, It cause me shame
when people think that his work is representative of Brazilian music. But
as I said before, let not waste our time. We have better people and music to
discuss about.
Jeff Vorzimmer <jvorz...@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:O3vw4.4359$w81.4...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
JMKAUFFMAN
is great. I think the whole argument of Sergio as "inauthentic" is a
non-issue, as Sergio's pop sound was a "hybrid" (I don't want to even go into
"fusion" land on this subject) of American and Brazilian styles. So the
Brazilians hated him for not being "really" Brazilian, and the Americans ate
him up for three or four years then moved on to the next fad. I find it
somewhat hilarious that all of these people decrying Sergio in the same breath
venerate the many artists that Sergio not only promoted, but who continue to
work with him to this day--Dori Caymmi, Edu Lobo, Hermeto Pascoal, et al. I
find it incredibly odd that Brazilians, who as a people have possibly the
"widest" ears I've ever experienced, write off the very person who introduced
so many of us to the wonders of their country's music.
Sinistro
the seventies his work was nothing but a joke.
Well, I hear that Sergio Mendes was responsible for introducing Brazilian
music to America and then people say the same thing about Charlie Byrd and
Stan Getz. Why they don't say the same about Coleman Hawkins, Zoot Sims and
Herbie Man that back in 61 were also recording bossa nova songs.
Nobody ever mention the great Aloisio de Oliveira. People just forget about
Laurindo de Almeida, Luis Bonfa and Ary Barroso. Carmen Miranda was huge
success back in the 40's but people just try to ignore her. Those are the
Brazilians that truly brought the Brazilian music to the US and that
happened many years before.
Brazilian music was already well known in America. As for bossa nova, people
try to ignore that Black Orfeus was internationally acclaimed back in 1959
and that It was a Jobim's song, Girl from Ipanema, with the sweet voices of
husband and wife Astrud and Joao Gilberto (him, with his marvelous guitar)
that made bossa nova popular in the US, beating even the Beatles on the
Billboard parade. The sax of Stan Getz was merely a complement. As for
saxophone players of that period, I definitely prefer Wayne Shorter,
Cannonball Aderley or John Coltrane.
It is very easy to overlook the albums that Jobim recorded with Frank
Sinatra. Being the only composer that received this honor by Ol'Blue Eyes.
So I don't understand how people think such absurd as Stan Getz or Charlie
Byrd as the people who brought Brazilian Music to the world. Getz was
nothing but an opportunist that made fortune and gain credit over the
creation of other. Did he help to popularize Bossa Nova? Somehow, but how
much credit and money he got for that. Jobim had huge problems to receive
the rights and it is just funny that Getz album with Jobim and Gilberto is
titled "Getz and Gilberto, with Antonio Carlos Jobim", but people here love
to say that it was Getz album. Bossa Nova became popular because of the
huge talent of two guys that happened to be the fathers of the style:
Antonio Carlos Jobim and Joao Gilberto. They would be famous all over the
world, no matter what!
It is the same thing I hear about Latin Music. People say that America is
discovering Latin music with Rick Martin. Hello! America is discovering
Latin music for the past fifty years!
Luiz
JMKAUFFMAN <jmkau...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000305185052...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
Sinistro
>If you're trying to shame the ignorant masses, go ahead; they deserve it!
>But you should realize you're not telling your friends here anything new
>when you talk about Orfeu Negro.
Well that was because I am tired to hear people saying those things about
Getz, Byrd, etc. I wasn't really trying to sound like a professor. I know
people here are well informed and educated and sometimes know about
Brazilian music better than this part-time musician. I was just using
examples in order to make a point.
>It shames me to have to mention this, but do you have any idea what sort of
>personal effort it takes for a USAmerican to learn Portuguese? People
>hought I was a _nut_ because I wanted to understand what these people were
>singing. That doesn't make me some kind of hero, but you should realize
>that when one of us expresses an opinion or asks a seemingly-stupid
>question, just what depths of feeling it took to keep that little spark of
>Brasil glowing up here in the windy darkness that is the USA.
You hit a great point here. Maybe it is exactly what I am trying to say,
because Brazilian music never needed to be sang in English to be atractive
for Americans. Sergio Mendes or Wanderley didn't need to adapt their music
for the American taste. Jobim didn't and he is the most respected musician
of all. Congratulations for your efforts in Portuguese. Beside my love for
Brazilian music, I come to this NG because I respect and like the people
that I find here.
Luiz
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Well, I hear that Sergio Mendes was responsible for introducing Brazilian
> music to America and then people say the same thing about Charlie Byrd and
> Stan Getz. Why they don't say the same about Coleman Hawkins, Zoot Sims and
> Herbie Man that back in 61 were also recording bossa nova songs.
Just a guess, but probably because Herbie Mann and the others you
mention didn't have a smash hit single like "The Girl from Ipanema" that
Getz/Gilberto/Jobim recorded which went to the top of the charts and
stayed there. None of this is about which musician is a better
musician. It's about what caught the ears of the U.S. public back in
the time when the bossa nova was still looked at as a "new thing".
> Nobody ever mention the great Aloisio de Oliveira. People just forget about
> Laurindo de Almeida, Luis Bonfa and Ary Barroso.
I haven't forgotten about any of them. I have LPs and CDs by Bonfa and
Almeida, both. But we were talking about people who by some stroke of
luck/fortune (and probably a combination of both)--plus a good dose of
good musical arrangement, produced something that just caught on with
the public, went big, and almost took on a life of its own with its
ensuing success. There is also something you are not recognizing, and
that is--sucesses like "Girl from Ipanema" helped pave the way for
everything else bossa nova and Brazilian that was to be successful in
the U.S. That Almeida & Bonfa and others were already here in the U.S.
before "Girl from Ipanema", yes. But people like Mendes, Marcos Valle,
Wanderley and his Trio were not here yet.
> Carmen Miranda was huge
> success back in the 40's but people just try to ignore her. Those are the
> Brazilians that truly brought the Brazilian music to the US and that
> happened many years before.
They brought Brazilian music to the U.S., yes. But Carmen Miranda did
not bring the bossa nova to the U.S., she was way before its debut even
in Brazil.
> So I don't understand how people think such absurd as Stan Getz or Charlie
> Byrd as the people who brought Brazilian Music to the world.
"To the world?" No one said that. I said in a previous post that both
those folks with their initial "Jazz Samba" LP "helped to popularize"
the music within the U.S. And, "Jazz Samba" came out before the
"Getz/Gilberto" album did.
As to your beef in why Getz' name is plastered all over the
"Getz/Gilberto" album--relatively unknown persons headlining an album
(such as Jobim and Gilberto were within the U.S. at the time) do not
usually sell records here. Creed Taylor, producer at work, again. But,
to his credit--he had the smarts to realize that the U.S. public would
not buy an album that was entitled "Gilberto/Jobim" since those two
folks were brand new to the American record-buying public. And I am
sure you will agree that after that album, both Gilberto and Jobim
didn't have any problem getting known or selling their own albums within
the U.S. The "Getz/Gilberto" LP merely served as their introduction
here.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >
>
> "To the world?" No one said that. I said in a previous post that both
> > those folks with their initial "Jazz Samba" LP "helped to popularize"
> > the music within the U.S. And, "Jazz Samba" came out before the
> > "Getz/Gilberto" album did.
>
> Jazz Samba was anything but bossa nova.
If that's your opinion, fine. But a whole bunch of people who know
music would disagree with you, noteably Ruy Castro who even has the U.S.
"Jazz Samba" LP pictured (in color!) in his book "Chega De Saudade"
(History of Bossa Nova). It's one thing to say you don't like
something; it's quite another to deny it its place in the history of how
bossa nova unfolded in the U.S.
> Barbara, did you know Rick Martin a year ago? He was suposed to appear at
> the Nickelodeon Kids Choice Awards last year to receive an award from the
> Latin American version of the channel. His only condition was that he would
> have to sing a song. They production said:
>
> "Oh, this guy may be known for the Spanish people in Miami, but he is
> irrelevant for the American audiences".
>
> Guess what. A week later R.M. was at the top of the parade. Try to get him
> for a free show again.
And this has has to do with what, exactly....? My taste/choices in
music don't include pop stars like Ricky Martin, so I know nothing about
his career. If you are trying to connect him with what I said about
"Getz/Gilberto", it's not related, as bossa nova was not a style that
was aimed at or heavily promoted to the teen audience by the media,
anyway.
bras...@my-deja.com
bras...@my-deja.com
Kevin Martin
>I agree that the earlier work of Sergio Mendes was good, though. But during
>the seventies his work was nothing but a joke.
Sinistro, meu bem, you are preaching to the choir. I agree with everything
you are saying -- except for the part about "nobody ever mentions" all of
those people that we talk about here. WE talk about them.
>Well, I hear that Sergio Mendes was responsible for introducing Brazilian
>music to America
Yes, some of it, to a lot of people. I was just listening to someone doing
Edu Lobo's "Casa Forte" on the Bossa Brazil internet radio. I played the
Brasil '66 version over and over. I always liked the Brasil '66 tracks like
that one, the ones by Caymmi & Motta, or Edu Lobo, much more than the ones
that were obviously aimed at the USAmerican audience.
>and then people say the same thing about Charlie Byrd and
>Stan Getz.
Yes, a different selection, a different interpretation, and perhaps they
reached a different set of people.
> Why they don't say the same about Coleman Hawkins, Zoot Sims and
>Herbie Man that back in 61 were also recording bossa nova songs.
A different set of the music, and perhaps not to quite so many people, but
yes, give them credit for trying. Stan Getz could get played on the radio
in Indiana in '65; you just didn't hear songs by people with names like
"Zoot" in that place and time.
>Nobody ever mention the great Aloisio de Oliveira. People just forget about
>Laurindo de Almeida, Luis Bonfa and Ary Barroso.
I had a book of arrangments by Almeida -- couldn't play them, but wanted to
have them nonetheless, because of what they represented.
When I was a child, NBC announced that Luis Bonfa was going to be on The
Tonight Show, and I stayed up until 1 in the morning to see him. Johnny
Carson or Jack Parr or whoever the hell it was ran overtime talking to some
washed-up actor and they never got to Bonfa. Didn't mean anything to the
host; it happened all the time on his show. (I could spit on him for so
casually mistreating artists.)
> Carmen Miranda was huge
>success back in the 40's but people just try to ignore her.
Before my time, but people have posted here to say we should give her the
recognition she deserves. You don't have to take away from one person to
respect another.
>Brazilian music was already well known in America. As for bossa nova, people
>try to ignore that Black Orfeus was internationally acclaimed back in 1959
If you're trying to shame the ignorant masses, go ahead; they deserve it!
But you should realize you're not telling your friends here anything new
when you talk about Orfeu Negro.
>It is very easy to overlook the albums that Jobim recorded with Frank
>Sinatra. Being the only composer that received this honor by Ol'Blue Eyes.
Easy to overlook mostly because Frankie wouldn't shut up and let Jobim play.
That was one of Sinatra's "comeback" albums. Some people were figuring his
career was over -- not for the first or last time. (Perhaps he should have
kissed Jobim's feet too, the way a certain singer is reported to have done
at their first meeting.)
It shames me to have to mention this, but do you have any idea what sort of
personal effort it takes for a USAmerican to learn Portuguese? People
thought I was a _nut_ because I wanted to understand what these people were
Ashok
>
>He could have come to the US and done his best as Jobim did, being
>faithful to his art. I think he could have made even more money than he
>made. Unfortunately, he didn't have Jobim's ntellectual stature and
>personality to argue with, and get his points across with US producers.
>I think everybody lost with that.
>Carlos
How do you explain the willingness of artists like Jobim, Joao Gilberto,
and Milton Nascimento to accept second billing with the likes of Sinatra,
Mann, Getz, Shorter, all artists of lesser calibre--and some of them of
far lesser calibre?
Ashok
Sinistro
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message >
"To the world?" No one said that. I said in a previous post that both
> those folks with their initial "Jazz Samba" LP "helped to popularize"
> the music within the U.S. And, "Jazz Samba" came out before the
> "Getz/Gilberto" album did.
Jazz Samba was anything but bossa nova.
> As to your beef in why Getz' name is plastered all over the
> "Getz/Gilberto" album--relatively unknown persons headlining an album
> (such as Jobim and Gilberto were within the U.S. at the time) do not
> usually sell records here.
>Creed Taylor, producer at work, again. But,
> to his credit--he had the smarts to realize that the U.S. public would
> not buy an album that was entitled "Gilberto/Jobim" since those two
> folks were brand new to the American record-buying public. And I am
> sure you will agree that after that album, both Gilberto and Jobim
> didn't have any problem getting known or selling their own albums within
> the U.S. The "Getz/Gilberto" LP merely served as their introduction
> here.
Barbara, did you know Rick Martin a year ago? He was suposed to appear at
Sinistro
> > Jazz Samba was anything but bossa nova.
> If that's your opinion, fine. But a whole bunch of people who know
> music would disagree with you, noteably Ruy Castro who even has the U.S.
> "Jazz Samba" LP pictured (in color!) in his book "Chega De Saudade"
> (History of Bossa Nova). It's one thing to say you don't like
> something; it's quite another to deny it its place in the history of how
> bossa nova unfolded in the U.S.
I am not talking about taste or opinions and I don't need to read Ruy Castro
to understand the music I hear since I was born and play since I was a kid.
The History of Bossa Nova happened in Rio de Janeiro, Brasil, not in the US
and even if Getz and Byrd have some role in that history, it does not
change the fact that he Getz wasn't fluent in the bossa phrasing and that
Byrd couldn't play the bossa beat correctly. Forgive me, but I will not
start another discussion in this place about Charlie Byrd and how he was
unable to perform Bossa Nova. Please, not again! Lets change the subject
and talk about the great artists Brazil has. If you want to discuss about
american jazz players I will be glad to do it at the alt.music.jazz.
> And this has has to do with what, exactly....? My taste/choices in
> music don't include pop stars like Ricky Martin, so I know nothing about
> his career. If you are trying to connect him with what I said about
> "Getz/Gilberto", it's not related, as bossa nova was not a style that
> was aimed at or heavily promoted to the teen audience by the media,
> anyway.
What I was saying is that no one need to be famous to became a star. Neither
did Jobim or Gilberto. They were talented enough for that and if Getz
recorded with them, it wasn't any favor he was doing for those musicians. It
happened because HE had interest in being related with such wonderful music.
Believe me, he received extra credit for that. Maybe more than what he
deserved.
BTW, you say that you don't like pop music, but you accept that artists make
concessions in that direction. Because that is exactly what artists such as
W.W. and Sergio Mendes did. It just happened that pop music changed a
little since then.
I honestly would fell more confortable in a thread like... "Ion Muniz, Hero
or Villain?" What do you think?
Rgs,
Luiz
Ken Mathieson
Ashok wrote in message <89v3b...@news1.newsguy.com>...
>and Milton Nascimento to accept second billing with the likes of Sinatra,
>Mann, Getz, Shorter, all artists of lesser calibre--and some of them of
>far lesser calibre?
>
>
>Ashok
>
in front of the public etc?
I'm new to the group, and not trying to be sarcastic, but musicians are like
any other professional group: Most have an inner compulsion to do what they
do, but everyone has different ambitions and values in life: Some must
remain true to their ideals and express themselves the only way they know
regardless of whether they make money or not (it may not be a driving factor
in their lives as long as they have enough). Others are perhaps more
versatile and can express themselves in a variety of styles, and if this is
coupled with personal financial ambition (or external persuasion by
managers, A&R men etc), could lead them to indulge in what others may
perceive as dilution or prostitution of their talents. Maybe they've also
got kids to put through college or whatever, and the cash sure comes in
handy for that!
I think some people are a bit over-critical of Getz's playing on the bossa
records: He came to the music with a fully-formed, highly-personal
improvisational style and it would be unreasonable to expect him to change
that style unduly, or to imitate, say, Paulo Moura for instance. However
there is no question that he altered his rhythmic approach to fit the genre,
and there can be no doubt that one of the principal reasons he was drawn to
the music was that he recognised the quality of the material, and its
potential for his kind of improvisation, probably before he heard the sound
of cash registers.
Personally I prefer the Cannonball Adderley-Sergio Mendes album, because of
its energy and fire, even though Cannonball makes less effort to alter his
rhythmic approach. In any case, I am a great believer that beyond a certain
standard of artistic and technical competence, there's no such thing as
better or worse: only different, and vive la difference!
Can I also start another thread her now that I have come out and stopped
lurking? Does anyone know what happened to Maria Toledo? Some fine output in
the 60s, then silence.
regards to all,
Ken in rainy Scotland
JMKAUFFMAN
>music to America
Well, since you're "quoting" me at the bottom--as BJ said, I never said Sergio
was responsible for "introducing Brazilian music to America." I said that for
those of us of a certain age, Sergio's music was OUR introduction to Brazilian
music. A very large difference.
Sinistro
Believe me, I survived as a musician for 15 years until I realize that I
needed a alternative job to support my art. It was better for me than
playing something that I didn't like. Many artists do that, including Jacob
do Bandolin and Helio Delmiro. I understand that some artists want to use
their art as a form of satisfying their personal financial ambition, to put
kids in college etc. However, there is a price to pay, be remembered as
someone who "sold" his art. How much would worth a Van Gogh today, if he had
as his only ambition in life to profit from his art? Probably nothing.
The problem is not with the artists that play popular music. Some artists
can be popular, still make masterpieces and there is nothing wrong with
that. I wouldn't expect Steve Wonder to play bebop and I respect his music
and consider him authentic, but when George Benson completely changed his
style, from a exquisite jazz player in the 60's to a cheesy pop singer in
the 70's, I believe it was only in order to profit and "that" is what I
consider as "selling the soul".
rgs,
Luiz
Ken Mathieson <k...@kenmath.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xUNw4.37144$O5.259050@stones...
bras...@my-deja.com
Whatever the wording, the bottomline is: that was a fake. And the
question is: WHY it had to be that way if the REAL THING is much
better. In the past 35 years I have been curiously watching this I had
entertained the thought that the US audience wasn't prepared to
appreciate the real thing. Later evidence and further considerations,
however, have proved I was wrong.
I think it is just a question of exposure as Barbara noticed, since US
audiences assimilate quickly. But the US marketing media would rather
spend $ millions promoting "la vida loca"...
Carlos
bras...@my-deja.com
> "Jeff Vorzimmer" wrote:
> > >Sergio Mendes & Bossa Rio, 1962
> > >Sergio Mendes The Swinger From Rio, 1963
> > >Cannonball Aderley with Bossa Rio "Quiet Nights", 1964
> > >Live at El Matador, 1965
> >
> > Yes, I have these albums and these are exactly the work I'm speaking
> of when
> > I say people should not dismiss all of his American work! You can
add
> the
> > Brasil 65 Capitol album to this list as well.
I don't understand why you call it his "American work" since that was
the standard Bossa Nova he was doing in Rio, prior to moving to the US.
Carlos
(sorry for my 2 previous posting failures)
bras...@my-deja.com
> >
> How do you explain the willingness of artists like Jobim, Joao
Gilberto,
> and Milton Nascimento to accept second billing with the likes of
Sinatra,
> Mann, Getz, Shorter, all artists of lesser calibre--and some of them
of
> far lesser calibre?
>
throughout tha last century. Jobim did 2 (or 1 1/2) records with him
and was the only composer who ever had such a distinction, probably
because no one else in the world had his score of assets: a vast
repertoire with great jazz themes, a multi-instrument musician, a fully
bilingual singer with lots of charm and good looks. Incidentally,
Cannonvball Aderley recorded Bossa Nova with Sergio Mendes long before
Stan Getz learned about it. Any person with some common sense will
easily perceive that Cannonball's rendition is much superior to Getz --
but that record went by nearly unnoticed... because there was no
marketing machine attached to it as apparently there was on Getz.
All of them probably had no better choice to market their art: either
play second to some of the local best or be ignored by the world's
largest music market. What can you do?
My point is: there was not the so-called "artistic prositution"
involved. They did "their thing" and presented their art as it has
always been, without changes or concessions. They did not play
Caribbean samba nor wore bananas on top of their heads -- something
Mendes did, metaphorically speaking.
Carlos
bras...@my-deja.com
"Sinistro" wrote:
> [...]
However, there is a price to pay, be remembered as
> someone who "sold" his art. How much would worth a Van Gogh today, if
he had
> as his only ambition in life to profit from his art? Probably nothing.
>
> Can you imagine how much money he could have made if he did
billboards for McDonald's?
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> Sinistro wrote..
> > > Jazz Samba was anything but bossa nova.
>
> > If that's your opinion, fine. But a whole bunch of people who know
> > music would disagree with you, noteably Ruy Castro who even has the U.S.
> > "Jazz Samba" LP pictured (in color!) in his book "Chega De Saudade"
> > (History of Bossa Nova). It's one thing to say you don't like
> > something; it's quite another to deny it its place in the history of how
> > bossa nova unfolded in the U.S.
>
> I am not talking about taste or opinions
But you are. When you make a statement as you did above that "Jazz
Samba was anything but bossa nova". That's an opinion, not fact. Jazz
Samba was the first widely accepted bossa nova LP in the U.S.
> BTW, you say that you don't like pop music, but you accept that artists make
> concessions in that direction.
No. I only made the statement that I don't follow what is currently
viewed as "pop" music (as in music made for a young audience). The
music of Mendes & WW was never "teen" music the way Ricky Martin and
other present day artists who are marketed *solely* to the teenage
audience, are.
Sinistro
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > B.J. (Barbara J.) Major <bjbe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> > I am not talking about taste or opinions
>
> But you are. When you make a statement as you did above that "Jazz
> Samba was anything but bossa nova". That's an opinion, not fact. Jazz
> Samba was the first widely accepted bossa nova LP in the U.S.
You gave your opinion, I know that people here in the Us THINK that the
album was Bossa Nova. But I will give you facts.
Chalie Byrd guitar was anything but samba, bossa nova or any other Brazilian
style. He use the accents in the wrong places and the way he construct the
chords are completely incoerent with what is known as Bossa Nova. He and
Getz play it with a quaternary tempo, while bossa (as samba and choro), is
played with a binary tempo. Diferently from later artists -- such as our
friend Joe Carter that did a lot research to learn Brazilian Music -- Getz
and Byrd never tryed to learn anything. They just played what they tought to
be Brazilian music and used the talents of Brazilian musicians in order to
create a "characteristic" sound. For me, It sounds more like Cuba rumba.
Jobim mentioned once that "those americans didn't know how to play Brazilian
music and after all this time they still haven't learn it".
By that time the only person who knew the beat was Joao Gilberto. Even
Roberto Menescal and Carlos Lyra admited that they didn't know the Bossa
beat and tryed to get as close as possible to Gilberto in order to learn it.
They tryied hard and absorbed it. But as it was impossible to copy, since
it is not a consistent beat -- it is played differently, with syncopes and
counter-tempos. All they could do was to create their own way of playing it.
Extremely close to the original but original as well. This is not the case
of Byrd, he never tried to understand the beat and consequently, his way of
playing it was completely swingless. His right-hand fingering is absolutely
imcompatible with any Brazilian style.
> No. I only made the statement that I don't follow what is currently
> viewed as "pop" music (as in music made for a young audience). The
> music of Mendes & WW was never "teen" music the way Ricky Martin and
> other present day artists who are marketed *solely* to the teenage
> audience, are.
I don't like pop music as well, but I have to admit that Rick Martin does
what he trully like to do. Differently from those guys you mentioned, that
(as many other creators of elevator music today) were trying to make their
music profitable by corrupting jazz and bossa nova. Now you want to give
them recognition for being masters of great music? Oh no, they made their
choice, I am sorry!
Luiz
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> I don't like pop music as well, but I have to admit that Rick Martin does
> what he trully like to do. Differently from those guys you mentioned, that
> (as many other creators of elevator music today) were trying to make their
> music profitable by corrupting jazz and bossa nova. Now you want to give
> them recognition for being masters of great music? Oh no, they made their
> choice, I am sorry!
Byrd and Getz *never* corrupted jazz. They both were masters of jazz.
You want to feel/think/believe that Getz, Byrd and the others
"corrupted" bossa nova, though, go right ahead. Just don't expect
others to agree with you. When it comes right down to it, I think you
resent the fact that even though they were not Brazilian, they did a
great job in recording a music form that was so brand new to them.
Sinistro
> Sinistro <sinis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Byrd and Getz *never* corrupted jazz. They both were masters of jazz.
Well I was talking about Sergio Mendes and not Getz and Byrd. The last two
didn't corrupted jazz, maybe bossa nova, more because of incompetence than
for of any financial reason.
As for masters of Jazz I have Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, Dizzie
Gilespie, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Thelonious Monk, Bud Powell, Lester
Young, Wes Montgomery, Elvin Jones, Bill Evans and a few other guys. Getz
and Byrd played on the second or third division. Sorry.
Luiz
mislav
Sinistro wrote:
> What I was saying is that no one need to be famous to became a star. Neither
> did Jobim or Gilberto. They were talented enough for that and if Getz
> recorded with them, it wasn't any favor he was doing for those musicians. It
> happened because HE had interest in being related with such wonderful music.
> Believe me, he received extra credit for that. Maybe more than what he
> deserved.
I would rather say that they (Jobim/Gilberto) did a great favor to Getz by #1
supplying this wonderful music and #2 playing with him, which gave Getz the
credibility that he might not deserve and enable him to become planetary
popular. Still I wouldn't be so rigorous about Getz, disregarding Jazz Samba
that was in my opinion just an experiment. I see it this way: if Jobim and
Gilberto who were the real authors, well if they chose or accepted Getz to play
with them, then they must have been satisfied with the man and his playing,
otherwise I don't expect that such a great musicians and purists as they
are/were, that they would perform and especially not record with him. To know
the truth, the one should ask Joăo.
Just an opinion.
Mislav
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Brazilian music chords & lyrics web site at: http://brasil.somewhere.net
mislav
Sinistro wrote:
>
> There we go again. So, Bossa Nova became what it is because of Stan Getz
> and because it had elements of American Music? Geez! And I was stupid
> enough to think that we ended this discussion many posts ago.
Luiz, I would put it this way: Bossa Nova became popular in US (and through US
in the rest of the world) because of Jobim and Gilberto, wihtout their help Getz
would probably never have been able to produce these wonderful records.
Sinistro
discussion, we exaggerate a bit. I actually like Getz and although what he
plays is not really samba, he has a beautiful style I just don't agree when
people make comments like he did a great favor for Bossa Nova. I think it
was exactly the opposite.
rgs
Luiz
mislav <mat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38C4F3B7...@yahoo.com...
> the truth, the one should ask João.
> Just an opinion.
> Mislav
JMKAUFFMAN
>question is: WHY it had to be that way if the REAL THING is much
>better.
I think we're going to simply agree we disagree. Sergio never claimed nor
attempted to be "just" Brazilian--he was attempting a multi-cultural
experiment. However, thank you for pointing out that my childhood experience
did not meet your criterion for being "REAL". Perhaps I could send you a
complete list of the thousands of CDs and LPs I have by Brazilian artists so
that you could categorize them for me according to your obviously completely
objective perceptions.
mislav
Sinistro wrote:
>
> I completely agree Mislav. Sometimes, because of the heat of the
> discussion, we exaggerate a bit. I actually like Getz and although what he
> plays is not really samba, he has a beautiful style I just don't agree when
> people make comments like he did a great favor for Bossa Nova. I think it
> was exactly the opposite.
>
> rgs
>
> Luiz
Someone said that the most common reason for dissagreement between people is
language. Very often people are not able to express their exact thoughts with
words. I believe what most people think about the subject is that Getz
contributed to the popularity of this music and that's the fact. What would have
happened if he hadn't taken this role, if some other musician had taken it, or
none at all, it would be impossible to tell.
jsierra
Ashok wrote in message
>How do you explain the willingness of artists like Jobim, Joao Gilberto,
>and Milton Nascimento to accept second billing with the likes of Sinatra,
>Mann, Getz, Shorter, all artists of lesser calibre--and some of them of
>far lesser calibre?
Now wait just a minute, Ashok! Speaking from the standpoint of someone who
has loved, researched and played both jazz and Brazilian music I assert
that, despite the greatness of Tom, Joao and Milton, that Getz, Sinatra and
Shorter are -NOT- artists of lesser calibre, certainly not of "--far--
lesser calibre!" Many who acknowledge the depth and beauty of Brazilian
music --without being blindly Brazil-o-centric-- would rate Sinatra as
Joao's equal in vocal subtlety, Getz as one of the most immediately
recongizable and eloquent instrumentalists in recorded music history and
Shorter as a jazz composer and player of major importance. Mann, though he
may have made some recordings of questionable value, has to be given his due
as one of the major figures in the development of jazz flute and an early
catalyst in the trend of cross-cultural musical encounters.
I'm still shaking my head over your comments. Sinatra was a master and Getz
was a wonderful storyteller with a tone of unearthly beauty. Milton himself
has said in print how much he loves and respects Wayne, hasn't he?
The U.S. artists you mentioned are not/were not perfect, but Jobim and
Milton have released some less-than- stellar recordings, too, haven't they?
What prolific recording artist hasn't? Step away from Brazil for a second,
look at the entire world of music and be objective. Let's give these great
North American artists their due!
Jose
Sinistro
> Ashok wrote in message
>
> >How do you explain the willingness of artists like Jobim, Joao Gilberto,
> >and Milton Nascimento to accept second billing with the likes of Sinatra,
> >Mann, Getz, Shorter, all artists of lesser calibre--and some of them of
> >far lesser calibre?
> Now wait just a minute, Ashok! Speaking from the standpoint of someone
who
> has loved, researched and played both jazz and Brazilian music I assert
> that, despite the greatness of Tom, Joao and Milton, that Getz, Sinatra
and
> Shorter are -NOT- artists of lesser calibre, certainly not of "--far--
> lesser calibre!"
Ashok is just using acid sarcasm as usual.
> I'm still shaking my head over your comments. Sinatra was a master <>
Sinatra is the most important singer in the US, perhaps the most important
in the world. My favorite american singer along with Bing Crosby and Nat
King Cole)
>and Getz
> was a wonderful storyteller with a tone of unearthly beauty.
Nobody can deny his talent. In spite the fact that I don't have him among
my favorites, which are Parker, Coltrane, Dolphy and Brecker. I respect his
contribution and style. I just don't like some of his comments and the idea
that many Americans have of Getz having some kind of fatherhood over bossa
nova.
>Milton himself
> has said in print how much he loves and respects Wayne, hasn't he?
Shorter is an incredible musician. But what he did to Elis Regina makes me
question his character. I think the same about Miles Davis, for me the
biggest opportunist of all times. Miles had a beautiful style but never
create a thing as many people believe. He was only with the right people at
the right time.
> The U.S. artists you mentioned are not/were not perfect, but Jobim and
> Milton have released some less-than- stellar recordings, too, haven't
they?
Milton did. Jobim, IMHO never release anything that one couldn't call a
masterpiece.
>Let's give these great
> North American artists their due!
Again, he does. He was just trying to be funny.
B.J. (Barbara J.) Major
> Sinatra is the most important singer in the US, perhaps the most important
> in the world. My favorite american singer along with Bing Crosby and Nat
> King Cole)
Sinatra, like so many other vocalists, had terrific arrangers to work
with (Nelson Riddle, Billy May, Neal Hefti, etc.) In his later years
when it was obvious to anyone that he really had no singing voice left,
he continued to have success after success because of the terrific
arrangements of his songs. It may surprise you to learn that not
everyone in America loves Sinatra the best or thinks he's the "most
important singer" in the U.S.