Jobim!
KSun28
Hi all!
Phew! I just figured out the chords to "Desafinado" and "Samba de
Una Nota So" on guitar. My wrist is sore from playing that 2nd chord in
"Desafinado" which crunches my fingers into this weird bar-chord while
stretching my feeble pinkie out to the 5th fret- must be easier on the piano!
Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this song, over
and over. One thing I'm noticing while playing these songs, which may be a
Jobim-ism, is how he loves to use different chords that fit harmonically with
the same melody, for the same verse the 2nd time around(or 3rd). For example,
if you listen to the opening four chords to "Samba de Una Nota So", you'll
hear him trade the last 2 chords in the 2nd verse for 2 different, but
harmonically fitting ones(Fmaj7,then B-flat-maj7). This is a tiny example but
many more exist. The odd thing to me is, these songs are so well-adapted to
guitar(in spite of that tortuous 2nd chord of "Desafinado"), they seem to have
been written on guitar... or is this due to the changes JG made in translating
the music to guitar? (Were these songs writtten in the same key, did they have
the same exact chord changes, or did JG alter them?) Anyone know?
Kristi
Gerry
<ksu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Phew! I just figured out the chords to "Desafinado" and "Samba de
> Una Nota So" on guitar. My wrist is sore from playing that 2nd chord in
> "Desafinado" which crunches my fingers into this weird bar-chord while
> stretching my feeble pinkie out to the 5th fret- must be easier on the piano!
You may have figured out a difficult version of a chord for which there
is an easier version.
> Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this song, over
> and over.
That's the noble attitude that has provided some people with permanent
muscle/ligament damage and/or such maladies as carpal tunnel syndrome.
Me, I got a ganglion cyst from such efforts. This has effectively
ended musical careers. Be careful. And no matter else might play a
chord this way, if it hurts you're doing it wrong!
> One thing I'm noticing while playing these songs, which may be a
> Jobim-ism, is how he loves to use different chords that fit harmonically with
> the same melody, for the same verse the 2nd time around(or 3rd). For example,
> if you listen to the opening four chords to "Samba de Una Nota So", you'll
> hear him trade the last 2 chords in the 2nd verse for 2 different, but
> harmonically fitting ones(Fmaj7,then B-flat-maj7). This is a tiny example but
> many more exist. The odd thing to me is, these songs are so well-adapted to
> guitar(in spite of that tortuous 2nd chord of "Desafinado"), they seem to have
> been written on guitar... or is this due to the changes JG made in translating
> the music to guitar?
I am pretty well assured that Jobim did most of his writing at the
piano, but think that early in his career he did some writing on the
guitar. I've been given to believe it wasn't much of his output.
> (Were these songs writtten in the same key, did they have
> the same exact chord changes, or did JG alter them?) Anyone know?
Without the original manuscripts that would be tough to know. Any one
version of either song has been transcribed to myriad keys to
accomodate the range the person singing it.
--
\\\--- Gerry
---------------------------------------------------
American Democracy -- the best that money can buy!
Daniella Thompson
> I am pretty well assured that Jobim did most of his writing at the
> piano
I think you could safely say 'all of his writing.' That's why, when Lumiar was
editing the Jobim Songbooks, guitarist Ricardo Gilly (who works at Lumiar) spent a
great deal of time with Tom to work out the harmonies.
Daniella
KSun28
>You may have figured out a difficult version of a chord for which there
>is an easier version.
Heh. Heh. Probably. :-)
>> Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this song,
>over
>> and over.
>
>That's the noble attitude that has provided some people with permanent
>muscle/ligament damage and/or such maladies as carpal tunnel syndrome.
>Me, I got a ganglion cyst from such efforts.
Ouch! Sounds painful. Hope you're still able to play.
This has effectively
>ended musical careers. Be careful. And no matter else might play a
>chord this way, if it hurts you're doing it wrong!
Thanks for the warning. I'm more of a binge player now, which gets me into
trouble- you know, 2 months off, 1 week on. This is because I consider my
playing a hobby, although at times I get obsessed with it. When I was at
Berklee, I used to hole myself up in the practice rooms for 8 hours straight,
because it seemed like all the other guitarists who were better than me did
that(typical guitarist's-ego)! What I ended up accomplishing in that time was
making myself so sick of guitar that I didn't touch it for a whole year after
leaving Berklee.
Kristi
Gerry
<ksu...@aol.com> wrote:
> >You may have figured out a difficult version of a chord for which there
> >is an easier version.
>
> Heh. Heh. Probably. :-)
So what is that chord and voicing?
> Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this song,
> over and over.
I do the same thing from time to time. I blew myself silly on, of all
things, "My Shining Hour" this week. I must have played it for an
hour. This on my newly acquired soprano sax. So not only did i play
it at nauseum but managed to lose brain cells form oxygen deprivation
rather than blow out hand muscles...
Pick your poison.
Dan Fineberg
KSun28 <ksu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19990821165749...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
> Gerry:
>
> >You may have figured out a difficult version of a chord for which there
> >is an easier version.
>
> Heh. Heh. Probably. :-)
>
> >> Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this
song,
> >over
> >> and over.
> >
> >That's the noble attitude that has provided some people with permanent
> >muscle/ligament damage and/or such maladies as carpal tunnel syndrome.
> >Me, I got a ganglion cyst from such efforts.
>
> Ouch! Sounds painful. Hope you're still able to play.
>
> This has effectively
> >ended musical careers. Be careful. And no matter else might play a
> >chord this way, if it hurts you're doing it wrong!
>
> Thanks for the warning. I'm more of a binge player now, which gets me
into
> trouble- you know, 2 months off, 1 week on. This is because I consider my
> playing a hobby, although at times I get obsessed with it. When I was at
> Berklee, I used to hole myself up in the practice rooms for 8 hours
straight,
> because it seemed like all the other guitarists who were better than me
did
> that(typical guitarist's-ego)! What I ended up accomplishing in that time
was
> making myself so sick of guitar that I didn't touch it for a whole year
after
> leaving Berklee.
>
> Kristi
>
>
>
>
Where'd you get your hands on the music for One Note Samba, by the way?
I've found a couple of transcriptions on the net but not very good ones.
DF
e...@club-internet.fr
> My wrist is sore from playing that 2nd chord in
> "Desafinado" which crunches my fingers into this weird bar-chord while
> stretching my feeble pinkie out to the 5th fret- must be easier on the piano!
Assuming the first chord is Fmaj7, sounds like that second chord you're struggling
with is a G13. You don't necessarily have to play it like a bar chord and might
find it easier to play a G7b5 without the G on the high E string ... In any case,
that's the official second chord in Lumiar's Jobim Songbook.
>
> The odd thing to me is, these songs are so well-adapted to
> guitar(in spite of that tortuous 2nd chord of "Desafinado"), they seem to have
> been written on guitar...
Yeah, I know what you mean. Maybe the approach was originally developped on
guitar. I remember reading somewhere that Jobim played the guitar before the
piano (I think he had an uncle who was a guitarist ... not sure)
> Were these songs writtten in the same key, did they have
> the same exact chord changes, or did JG alter them?
That's a really good question. It's interesting to listen to Jobim's guitar
playing on The Composer of Desafinado Plays, for example, and compare it with
João's voicings and interpretations.
--
Erick Wolff Despujol
e...@club-internet.fr
Empcds
>> guitar(in spite of that tortuous 2nd chord of "Desafinado"), they seem to
>have
>> been written on guitar...
I've always understood that Tom's early compostions were composed on the
guitar. The keys of the original recordings seem to bear this out. Desafinado
in "E", for instance, and Triste in "A". Most of us North Americans learned
these tunes in keys that were transposed to by horn players --- Desafinado in
"F", Triste in "Bb", One Note Samba in "Bb". The original recorded keys of
Tom's middle and later period compositions seem to also point to the fact they
were composed on piano. Tunes like Ana Luiza and Bebel and Borzeguim are in
keys that don't fall easily on the guitar in the sense that they don't take
advantage of the open strings of the guitar.
This theory also goes along with the fact that Tom stopped playing the guitar
altogether at some point in his middle period and concentrated on performing
and recording exclusively on the piano.
Joe C.
Daniella Thompson
> I've always understood that Tom's early compostions were composed on the
> guitar.
Even before Tom began to compose, he worked as a nightclub pianist, and then as an
arranger at radio stations and record labels. His best friend and most frequent
early collaborator (until he died prematurely), Newton Mendonça, was also a
pianist. "Desafinado" was composed by both of them; it's impossible to say who
contributed what, as they both wrote music and lyrics, but it's well documented
that they composed at the piano.
Daniella
e...@club-internet.fr
> Even before Tom began to compose, he worked as a nightclub pianist, and then as an
> arranger at radio stations and record labels. His best friend and most frequent
> early collaborator (until he died prematurely), Newton Mendonça, was also a
> pianist. "Desafinado" was composed by both of them; it's impossible to say who
> contributed what, as they both wrote music and lyrics, but it's well documented
> that they composed at the piano.
>
>
Just read through the interview in Lumiar Editora's Jobim Songbook (volume 2).
When Chediak asked him how he started composing with Newton, Jobim answered: "We
hung out together on the beach playing the harmonica here and there, and somebody
always had a guitar" ...
Later in the interview, referring to the composition of well-known songs with
Newton,Tom said: "He'd hold the pencil and paper and I'd sit at the piano" ...
KSun28
Erick wrote:
>Assuming the first chord is Fmaj7, sounds like that second chord you're
>struggling
>with is a G13. You don't necessarily have to play it like a bar chord and
>might
>find it easier to play a G7b5 without the G on the high E string ... In any
>case,
>that's the official second chord in Lumiar's Jobim Songbook.
Herein lies part of the problem. I'm learned it in E because that's the key
my CD player plays it in- I'm using the "Legendary Joao Gilberto" CD. On my CD
player I have this neat pause button, and another that allows you to rewind
just a few seconds back so you can repeat a part till you get it right. It's
probably more practical to use sheet music but to me it's more fun to figure it
out by ear. I just transposed it to F(key) on my guitar, and you're right,
it's much more comfortable w/ the open strings on that G7b5. Now I think I'll
go back and try to figure out which voicing Joao uses on this. Minimalist that
he can be, I wouldn't be surprised if he just plays the G7, allowing his voice
to take care of the b5. Now, if only I could sing, I'd do that too!
Kristi
KSun28
Dan,
>Where'd you get your hands on the music for One Note Samba, by the way?
>I've found a couple of transcriptions on the net but not very good ones.
Music? Why, the master himself(Joao) is giving me a daily thrashing right
through my ears! :-) If I had a gig to play, maybe I'd buy sheet music, so
we'd all play in the same key. Meanwhile, I save money by hitting rewind a
zillion times until I find the right chord/voicing. Sometimes, when you have
heard a song several times, you can play it back in your head, but Joao is
tricky-sometimes you can't believe what you hear even when you really hear it.
Nevertheless, as songs go, "One Note" isn't too difficult to figure out. If
I knew how to transcribe how it's played onto sheet music, I'd send it to you
via e-mail. I've heard of this sort of thing being done through the computer
but I'm completely ignorant about how it works. If you give me some input on
how it's done than I can send you the chords/ voicings.
Kristi
KSun28
Gerry,
>So what is that chord and voicing?
Since I'm learned it in E, the chord is a F#7b5. There must be a more
efficient way of typing the voicing(help!), but I don't know it, so I'll go
string by string(sorry to those bored by guitar-talk):
1st (high e) string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (F#)
2nd string: 5th fret using pinkie finger(my fingers are short!) (E)
3rd string: 3rd fret, 3rd finger (A#)
4th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (E)
5th string: 3rd fret, 2nd finger (C)
6th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger-part of bar chord (E)
For a guitarist who plays regularly, this one probably isn't so bad, but
I'm out of shape.
Kristi
>> Anyhow, physical suffering can't stop me from wanting to play this song,
>> over and over.
>
>I do the same thing from time to time. I blew myself silly on, of all
>things, "My Shining Hour" this week. I must have played it for an
>hour. This on my newly acquired soprano sax. So not only did i play
>it at nauseum but managed to lose brain cells form oxygen deprivation
>rather than blow out hand muscles...
>
>Pick your poison.
>
>--
>\\\--- Gerry
>---------------------------------------------------
>American Democracy -- the best that money can buy!
></PRE></HTML>
Kimson Plaut
<< I've heard of this sort of thing being done through the computer but I'm
completely ignorant about how it works.>>
what you need to have is:
a) a MIDI keyboard (or perhaps a guitar synth?)
b) notation software (Encore, Finale)
- kimson
Reg Schwager
> Since I'm learned it in E, the chord is a F#7b5. There must be a more
> efficient way of typing the voicing(help!), but I don't know it, so I'll go
> string by string(sorry to those bored by guitar-talk):
> 1st (high e) string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (F#)
> 2nd string: 5th fret using pinkie finger(my fingers are short!) (E)
> 3rd string: 3rd fret, 3rd finger (A#)
> 4th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (E)
> 5th string: 3rd fret, 2nd finger (C)
> 6th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger-part of bar chord (F#)
PMFJI, but I'd probably go with the following voicing. It's easier to
play.
1st (high e) string: muted (using 1st finger)
2nd string: 1st fret, 1st finger (C)
3rd string: 3rd fret, 4th finger (A#)
4th string: 2nd fret, 3rd finger (E)
5th string: muted (using 2nd finger)
6th string: 2nd fret, 2nd finger (F#)
-Reg
Empcds
>as an
>arranger at radio stations and record labels.
>it's well documented
>that they composed at the piano.
Daniella:
I forgot about Tom's main activities in those early days. I defer to you, as
my theory was all conjecture on my part.
Joe C.
NuBossa
>> Since I'm learned it in E, the chord is a F#7b5. There must be a more
>> efficient way of typing the voicing(help!), but I don't know it, so I'll go
>> string by string(sorry to those bored by guitar-talk):
>> 1st (high e) string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (F#)
>> 2nd string: 5th fret using pinkie finger(my fingers are short!) (E)
>> 3rd string: 3rd fret, 3rd finger (A#)
>> 4th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger- part of bar chord (E)
>> 5th string: 3rd fret, 2nd finger (C)
>> 6th string: 2nd fret, 1st finger-part of bar chord (F#)
Kristi,
Your desire to copy the music right of the cd is commendable but here are a few
things you may want to know about Joao's chords. First, as he plucks (not
strums) chords, he doesn't use six note voicing, but almost always uses only
four notes. If you are using a pick (and it sounds like you are from the chord
you wrote above) you will have trouble with trying to mute strings, you'll be
playing too many notes (Joao as you know is a minimalist) and you'll never get
the bossa rhythm correct as you need to have the thumb hitting the bass on the
beat all the time with the 1,2, and 3 (i, m, a) fingers pucking the rest of
the chord and syncopating.
For the F#b5, Reg's voicing is the one I'd use, especially since you don't need
the F# on top, but do need the C (which is the flat 5 melody note).
If you want a short cut to learning Joao's voicings, and I highly recommend it,
check out Jason Brasile's site.
About your hand, please don't do what I did. I played a lot in my twenties,
hardly at all in my 30's, but then fell in love with Jobim and bossa nova in my
40's, and started playing like mad. I developed a problem with right hand
swelling and sorness that has eluded two doctors' diagoases, but finally found
a therapist who believes it is from ulnar nerve compression. So do yourself a
favor and don't play through pain, or even to the point of pain. It's not
worth risking permanent hand damage.
Tom
Carlos P. Falcão
da...@jps.net wrote:
> Joe,
>
> > I've always understood that Tom's early compostions were composed
on the
> > guitar.
>
and then as an
most frequent
> early collaborator (until he died prematurely), Newton Mendonça, was
also a
> pianist. "Desafinado" was composed by both of them; it's impossible
to say who
documented
> that they composed at the piano.
>
> Daniella
As a professional jazz piano player, Newton used and invented lots of
dissonant keys and tunes but not with the BN beat that would be later
introduced by João. Chega de Saudade was originally a chorinho. Stories
that I heard by word of mouth from young musicians in the 60's in Rio
-- fabricated or not -- is that in a late night, Newton was skunk drunk
and started fooling around at the piano, making fun of what would be an
impossible and silly love song from a loser off the gutter... As he
sung and played "Se você disser que eu desafino, amor..." Jobim took it
very seriously and they both finished harmony and lyrics while Newton
was sober a few days later. Newton died at 28, from cirrhosis and
complications from his extremely heavy drinking and little rest from
his bohemian life style.
Carlos
>
>
--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Daniella Thompson
> As a professional jazz piano player, Newton used and invented lots of
> dissonant keys and tunes but not with the BN beat that would be later
> introduced by João. Chega de Saudade was originally a chorinho.
"Chega de Saudade" was composed by Tom, not Newton, and Tom composed it on the
guitar while he was in his country house. It was composed as a 2-part choro,
and Vinicius later had a lot of trouble writing lyrics for it.
> Newton died at 28, from cirrhosis and complications from his extremely heavy
> drinking and little rest from
> his bohemian life style.
Newton died at 33, from a heart attack. Heart disease was congenital in his
family.
Daniella
Carlos P. Falcão
da...@jps.net wrote:
> "Carlos P. Falcão" wrote:
>
> > As a professional jazz piano player, Newton used and invented lots
of
> > dissonant keys and tunes but not with the BN beat that would be
later
> > introduced by João. Chega de Saudade was originally a chorinho.
>
> "Chega de Saudade" was composed by Tom, not Newton, and Tom composed
it on the
> guitar while he was in his country house. It was composed as a 2-
part choro,
> and Vinicius later had a lot of trouble writing lyrics for it.
Chega de Saudade is not Newton's. I didn't mean that. I meant the
difference in beat from the standard samba-cancao Jobim used to write
before he met Joao. Jobim had no country house in the 50's when he
composed Chega de Saudade. He lived in a rather small, rented
apartment house at Rua Nascimento Silva, Ipanema, Rio. In the early
70s, he built a country house on the hills of Petropolis/Teresopolis,
a one-hour drive from downtown Rio, where he wrote Waters of March,
during a raining season and while it was still under construction.
> > Newton died at 28, from cirrhosis and complications from his
extremely heavy
> > drinking and little rest from
> > his bohemian life style.
>
> Newton died at 33, from a heart attack. Heart disease was congenital
in his
> family.
> Daniella
>
> Newton died in 1959, and the heart condition was just one of the
complications I referred to.
Daniella Thompson
> Jobim had no country house in the 50's when he
> composed Chega de Saudade. He lived in a rather small, rented
> apartment house at Rua Nascimento Silva, Ipanema, Rio. In the early
> 70s, he built a country house on the hills of Petropolis/Teresopolis,
From Sérgio Cabral's 'Antônio Carlos Jobim: Uma Biografia,' p. 123:
<<Logo depois a apresentação da peça 'Orfeu da Conceição,' Antônio Carlos Jobim
foi para o sítio comprado pelo seu padrasto, no povoado de Poço Fundo, em São
José do Rio Preto, então distrito de Petrópolis. Descansado e respirando o ar
puro da montanha, compôs no violão o que pretendia ser choro de duas partes.
Retornando ao Rio, tratou de telefonar au parceiro Vinicius de Moraes...>>
> Newton died in 1959, and the heart condition was just one of the
> complications I referred to.
You know, it would be really nice if just once you got your facts right. Newton
died on 11 November 1960. He was not 28 as you said but 33. And congenital
heart disease -- one that affected his father and sister as well -- can't be
dismissed as a complication of drinking by any stretch of the imagination.
Newton certainly didn't contribute to his own health by drinking heavily, but
the fact remains that regardless of his drinking habits, he would never have
made it to Carlos Cachaça's age for the simple reason that his cardiac system
was defective. Nowhere in print have I ever seen any reference to cirrhosis of
the liver in Newton's case.
Daniella
KSun28
Reg,
>PMFJI, but I'd probably go with the following voicing. It's easier to
>play.
>
>1st (high e) string: muted (using 1st finger)
>2nd string: 1st fret, 1st finger (C)
>3rd string: 3rd fret, 4th finger (A#)
>4th string: 2nd fret, 3rd finger (E)
>5th string: muted (using 2nd finger)
>6th string: 2nd fret, 2nd finger (F#)
>
>-Reg
>
Urf! Why didn't I think of that!!!! :-) Thanks much! BTW, what does
PMFJI stand for?
Kristi
KSun28
Tom wrote:
(snipped)<< lots of good, true stuff>>
You'll be glad to know that I haven't touched a pick in years...not just
because of Bossa Nova, but because I'm forever missplacing them! Seriously,
though, once you give up the pick, it feels ackward to use one again, and I
don't mean just physically, either. It's like the difference between kissing
someone on the cheek and kissing them on the lips...another level of
intimacy... and my guitar and I have known each other for a verrry long time!
:-)
About the 4-note chords: Yeah, I know but I'm not completely minimalist-yet!
Occasionally, I play 5 strings for certain chords by hitting the 6th string
with my thumb(bass), while using my other fingers for the 5th, 4th, 3rd, and
2nd string(I really don't make much use of the 1st string). For example, if I
play a Ab min. 7 chord, depending on the situation, I might want to play it as
a 1st-finger bar chord with the Gb on the 7th fret of the 2nd string, using my
pinkie finger, instead of using the 2-finger(3rd finger bar) version. Why do I
do this? I think I prefer the fullness of sound because my voice isn't so
great. Helps to disguise my hideous yelping! :-)
Sorry to hear about your injury. Teachers at all levels would do a great
service to their students by warning them of the dangers...let's hope people
are becoming more aware of this problem.
Kristi
KSun28
Kimsom,
></PRE></HTML>
That's all?!!!! ;-)
Kristi
NuBossa
liver, congenital, heart disease, country homes, notation software and on and
on.
Can someone straighen me out on "Waters of March"? Carlos mentioned that it
was composed in Brazil during heavy rains in March. I'd heard another theory
that it must have been written in the US to coincide with our northern
hemisphere rainy spring season. Is March typically rainy in Brazil? (If not,
I wonder how this song struck Brazilians since it seems to me to be about
spring, life, rebirth, etc.) Does anyone know for sure when and where it was
written?
And to Kristi:
You've got to start using that high E string! What do you do when you put the
bass note on the A string? About your Min7 fingering, I have a Romero Lubambo
instructional video where he scrunches all four fingers into the same fret to
play it!
Tom
Gerry
Gee alot has transpired since I last posted. The voicing that others
have recomended is my first choice as well: R73b5.
Your voicing, if I recall the post correctly, had a root in the bass
followed by a flat-5. This is WAY too low sonically for a flatted
fifth. It causes some nasty natural vibrations. To place a dominant
7th above it and a 3rd above that just makes it even muddier. Raise
the entire thing an octave and it's usable.
You mentioned Tom (or Joao) playing a G7 and singing the flat-5. That
would sound god-awful if the G7 had a perfect fifth in the voicing.
The conflict would be in-your-face obvious.
Good luck in your musical travels. Feel free to bounce voicings and
such off of us. Many of us really enjoy this minutae.
Daniella Thompson
> What an interesting thread! Flat 5 voicings, hand injuries, cirrhosis of the
> liver, congenital heart disease, country homes, notation software and on and
> on.
Amazing, isn't it? At least four threads in one.
> Can someone straighen me out on "Waters of March"? Carlos mentioned that it
> was composed in Brazil during heavy rains in March.
According to Sérgio Cabral, in March 1972 Jobim went to the same sítio in Poço
Fundo where he composed "Chega de Saudade" and wrote the music and the lyrics of
"Águas de Março" while he was there. Cabral states that, like all the other
songs created at this country place, "Águas de Março" was composed on the guitar,
because only after the completion of his new house would Tom have a piano in that
location.
When he returned to Rio, Jobim stopped at Antonio's restaurant and invited all
his friends who were sitting there on the terrace to hear the song at his house.
He told them:
<<Vocês sabem, eu estava com Teresa lá no sítio, vendo uma aguinha passar pelo
regato e a coisa começou a brotar. Incrível, mas Teresa tinha lápis e papel.
Fui dizendo: 'É pau, é pedra, é o fim do caminho.' O pouco que faltava saiu
agora de tarde.>>
In short, he was inspired by the movement of water in the creek. No heavy rains
-- or any rains, for that matter -- were mentioned.
Daniella
Carlos P. Falcão
> It is very tough to argue with a book I don't have and am not
familiar with. I said what was talked about locally at the time. You
can't say it is wrong just because it is not in print. Besides, I have
never been too much concerned with such small details and there is very
little one can find written about Newton, anyway. But since you are
concerned about such minutiae, I think you should tell Tom's family
that they should correct the unforgivable mistake of reporting Newton's
death in 1959 when the right date is, as you say, 11/10/1960. Check
Chronology at Clube do Tom:
http://www.nortemag.com/tom/cronologia/chronology.html.
Best,
Carlos P. Falcão
"São as águas de março/Fechando o verão/É promessa de vida/No meu
coração".
Translation: (Those) are the waters of March/Closing the Summer/It's a
promise of life/Within my heart. He is not talking about simple rain,
he is talking about heavy pours that are common in Rio in that time of
the year. Have you heard of any streams closing the summer?
Note: Summer in Brazil coincides with winter in the US.
Got it?
Carlos P. Falcão
Daniella Thompson
"I was with Teresa at the country place, looking at some water passing in the
creek, and the thing began to take shape. Incredible, but Teresa had pencil and
paper. I wrote 'É pau, é pedra, é o fim do caminho.'
However, Carlos Falcão knows better:
> The original lyrics in Brazilian Portuguese say, literally:
> "São as águas de março/Fechando o verão/É promessa de vida/No meu
> coração".
>
> Translation: (Those) are the waters of March/Closing the Summer/It's a
> promise of life/Within my heart. He is not talking about simple rain,
> he is talking about heavy pours that are common in Rio in that time of
> the year. Have you heard of any streams closing the summer?
>
> Note: Summer in Brazil coincides with winter in the US.
>
> Got it?
Yes Sir!
Your word over Jobim's any time.
Thank you for enlightening us about the seasons -- we had no idea that in the
southern hemisphere they're reversed. Apprarently it hasn't occurred to you
that the lyrics of a song don't have to have anything to do with the
circumstances of the song's creation. I doubt very much that Jobim (and his
wife) would have been sitting by a creek in a torrential rain, pencil and paper
in hand, creating new verses. But you probably have an excellent explanation
for that, too.
Daniella
Kimson Plaut
<< I doubt very much that Jobim (and his wife) would have been sitting by a
creek in a torrential rain, pencil and paper in hand, creating new verses. But
you probably have an excellent explanation for that, too.>>
okay okay, break it up, you guys! someone should point out that creeks,
waterfalls, etc, *do* contain a much greater volume of water during the rainy
seasons...
- kimson
Daniella Thompson
> someone should point out that creeks,
> waterfalls, etc, *do* contain a much greater volume of water during the rainy
> seasons...
That's perfect common sense.
But I have an innocent (really) question: Jobim's words were, "eu estava com
Teresa lá no sítio, vendo uma aguinha passar pelo regato." Do you think that
"aguinha" qualifies as a large volume of water?
Daniella
NuBossa
Thanks very much for this story. So it was written in Brazil and not the US as
others have speculated (though not in this thread, thank goodness, we have
enough trouble here already!). Damn, why are all the really good books written
in Portugese??!!
Question: Is everything reversed in the southern hemisphere? Is up, down;
good, evil; happy, sad? What an exotic land Brazil must be!
Tom
>According to Sérgio Cabral, in March 1972 Jobim went to the same sítio in
>Poço
>Fundo where he composed "Chega de Saudade" and wrote the music and the lyrics
>of
>"Águas de Março" while he was there. Cabral states that, like all the other
>songs created at this country place, "Águas de Março" was composed on the
>guitar,
>because only after the completion of his new house would Tom have a piano in
>that
>location.
>
>When he returned to Rio, Jobim stopped at Antonio's restaurant and invited
>all
>his friends who were sitting there on the terrace to hear the song at his
>house.
>He told them:
><<Vocês sabem, eu estava com Teresa lá no sítio, vendo uma aguinha passar
>pelo
Carlos P. Falcão
(and his
> wife) would have been sitting by a creek in a torrential rain, pencil
and paper
> in hand, creating new verses. But you probably have an excellent
explanation
> for that, too.
>
>
>
Do you have an audio record of him telling you that? Who said he and
his wife were sitting by a creek? I said what I read in an interview he
gave to some Brazilian magazine (Manchette or Fatos & Fotos, don't know
for sure)in the 70's and they photographed him at the window of his
studio there and other places at that site with a stunning landscape.
The mud, pieces of wood, blocks of stone, etc. (don't know the English
version) he referred to in his song were just part of the construction
material that was being carried away by the flood of water.
Carlos
Carlos P. Falcão
--
Brazilian Portuguese<>American English
Translator
Miami - USA
Carlos P. Falcão
Another section of the original lyrics says (and he sang it with Elis
Regina in the memorable Elis&Tom):
É o projeto da casa
É o corpo na cama
É o carro enguiçado
É a lama, é a lama
Which in English roughly means:
It's the house project
It's the body in bed
It's the car stuck
It's the mud, it's the mud
Does it make sense to you? Now, if you say he told you personally that
he wrote it while riding the A train in New York City, that's all right
with me.
Daniella Thompson
> So it was written in Brazil and not the US as
> others have speculated (though not in this thread, thank goodness, we have
> enough trouble here already!).
:-)
Tom may very well have written the English lyrics in the US. I'm not going to run
to Cabral to check right at this moment, but if I come across any reference to
that later, I'll let you know.
Daniella
Daniella Thompson
> Do you have an audio record of him telling you that? Who said he and
> his wife were sitting by a creek?
I've already stated more than once in this thread that the quotation came from
Sérgio Cabral's biography of Jobim, published by Lumiar Editora in 1997. Cabral
may not be the most scintillating prose stylist, but he is a highly respected
music historian whose word can be taken without hesitation -- something I can't
say for you.
> I said what I read in an interview he gave to some Brazilian magazine
> (Manchette or Fatos & Fotos, don't know
> for sure)
Apparently you don't have an audio record of Jobim either. And since you're
never too sure of your sources, you'll forgive me if I continue to give credence
to mine over yours. If you take the trouble to read more carefully, you'll
notice that I never said it doesn't rain heavily in March, or that the song
doesn't make allusion to heavy rains in March. Tom's question was about where
the song was composed, and in my reply I addressed myself to the circumstances
surrounding the act of creation and to nothing else.
Is the horse sufficiently dead now?
Daniella
Daniella Thompson
> Does it make sense to you? Now, if you say he told you personally that
> he wrote it while riding the A train in New York City, that's all right
> with me.
Wake up and smell the coffee. As usual, you're talking to yourself and out of
context. Scroll back to the previous message and read it carefully, and you'll
see that you've barged into an open door.
For the last time: I never said that "Águas de Março" isn't about rain, so what
are you trying to prove?
There's nothing I'd love to do more than ignore all your messages from now on.
But you're pernicious, a loose cannon who carelessly spreads untrue stories that
might actually do harm to someone. As you've demonstrated time and again,
you're too busy hearing yourself talk to pay attention to what anyone else is
saying, so it's no surprise that you get so many details wrong.
Daniella
Daniella Thompson
> I remember reading somewhere (and I'm almost afraid to mention it because I
> don't remember where) that this was the first song that Tom wrote in English
> (first) and he was very proud of this fact.
I read this too (perhaps here?), but I believe you can safely discount that
theory. Maybe it was the first song in English he wrote (not the same as wrote
in English first).
Daniella
Carlos P. Falcão
da...@jps.net wrote:
> "Carlos P. Falcão" wrote:
>
> > Do you have an audio record of him telling you that? Who said he and
> > his wife were sitting by a creek?
>
> I've already stated more than once in this thread that the quotation
came from
> Sérgio Cabral's biography of Jobim, published by Lumiar Editora in
1997. Cabral
> may not be the most scintillating prose stylist, but he is a highly
respected
> music historian whose word can be taken without hesitation --
something I can't say for you.
You said before and I quote (actually, cut & paste):
"Tom Jobim said about composing 'Águas de Março'... However, Carlos
Falcão knows better:... Yes Sir! Your word over Jobim's any time."
I believe such a misguided confrontation was unwarranted and uncalled
for. I also believe that the fact of being born, raised and graduated
in Rio at that time, an amateur musician and early bossa buff,a US
citizen by choice, should command a bit more of respect as I really
know what I am talking about and it is not because I read one book in a
foreign language I can barely command. This was then, is now and will
be forever part of my life.
No matter how competent and sincere a writer is, it is just impossible
to condense in a single book all the facts, relevant or not, about the
Bossa Nova movement and all the songs, composers, singers and musicians
in a complex environment such as Brazil. I read Ruy Castro and believe
he left this very clear. I bet neither he nor Cabral would ever imagine
that their works would be used as as a sort of Bible in a foreign land,
to the extent that if any information is not there, then it didn't
exist.
> > I said what I read in an interview he gave to some Brazilian
magazine
> > (Manchette or Fatos & Fotos, don't know
> > for sure)
>
> Apparently you don't have an audio record of Jobim either. And since
you're
> never too sure of your sources, you'll forgive me if I continue to
give credence
> to mine over yours. If you take the trouble to read more carefully,
you'll
> notice that I never said it doesn't rain heavily in March, or that
the song
> doesn't make allusion to heavy rains in March. Tom's question was
about where
> the song was composed, and in my reply I addressed myself to the
circumstances
> surrounding the act of creation and to nothing else.
It just does not make any sense with the original lyrics, thats all.
And I prefer his earlier version that I read in a magazine and saw in
photos, as I mentioned earlier, whether you believe it or not.
>
> Is the horse sufficiently dead now?
May I quote Jobim in "Águas de Março": "É o fim da canseira". (I hope)
>
> Daniella
Best regards,
KSun28
Tom,
>And to Kristi:
>
>You've got to start using that high E string! What do you do when you put the
>bass note on the A string?
Change the key to a lower one? Use a capo? ;-)
Seriously, though, it depends again on the voicing. For example, in "Chega de
Saudade", in the section where JG sings "Mas se ela voltar..."(you know, the
hopeful, optimistic part), I play the Dmaj7 on the 5th fret(using strings
2,3,4,5), then the diminished chord, then the E9, then Emin9(don't know if
that's the proper name for it, I always forgot the names for these things I
play),etc.all using strings 2,3,4,5. The only place where I make use of the
high E-string(in this song) is when I transition from this G-bassed chord with
G,E, Bb, & D in it (what do you call this? I call it "that Corcovado chord"!)
to an A13 on the 2nd fret- when I play the A13, I do actually play the
1st-string F# !!! Do I get any credit for that? ;-)
Of course, I've only attempted 3 JG songs so far, so now you're telling me I
have to learn to play yet another string to play along with my hero? Yikes!!!!
Time to switch to ukelele!
Kristi
Kristi
KSun28
Gerry,
>Kristi:
>
>Gee alot has transpired since I last posted. The voicing that others
>have recomended is my first choice as well: R73b5.
Yep- it also has the perfect advantage of allowing one to play along easily
with the vocal melody with the high-e on the open string and c on the 2nd
string. This is just the sort of happy 'coincidence' that makes it seem that it
was tailor-made by a guitar-player. I'm so glad you guys brought this to my
attention! It sounds soooooo much better! :-)
>Your voicing, if I recall the post correctly, had a root in the bass
>followed by a flat-5. This is WAY too low sonically for a flatted
>fifth. It causes some nasty natural vibrations.
I hear what you mean.
To place a dominant
>7th above it and a 3rd above that just makes it even muddier. Raise
>the entire thing an octave and it's usable.
Interesting. Muddy is the exact word for it, too!
>You mentioned Tom (or Joao) playing a G7 and singing the flat-5. That
>would sound god-awful if the G7 had a perfect fifth in the voicing.
>The conflict would be in-your-face obvious.
Yes! Perfectly "Desafinado"!! :-0
>Good luck in your musical travels. Feel free to bounce voicings and
>such off of us. Many of us really enjoy this minutae.
Thanks, Gerry. I'm sure I will do this, as I got a lot out this exercise.
Unfortunately, school's just started-up again(pre-pharmacy), so I may not have
as much time in the near future to play. But I hope others will continue to
discuss the guitar-stuff whether I'm asking or just lurking. Next stop for me
is "Luz do Sol" by Caetano. I've always wanted to learn to play this- think
I'll try to figure it out this weekend.
Kristi
Empcds
I remember reading somewhere (and I'm almost afraid to mention it because I
don't remember where) that this was the first song that Tom wrote in English
(first) and he was very proud of this fact. He was proud of his imagery and
wordplay in this new (to him) language. Am I right or wrong on this?
Joe C.
NuBossa
>The only place where I make use of the
>high E-string(in this song) is when I transition from this G-bassed chord
>with G,E, Bb, & D in it (what do you call this? I call it "that Corcovado
chord"!)...>
It's technically a Gmin6 but I like your name better. Jobim sure made great
use of that chord, and often moved from a Mag7 to a min6 -- it's all over his
compositions.
>...to an A13 on the 2nd fret- when I play the A13, I do actually play the
>1st-string F# !!! Do I get any credit for that? ;-)
Oh, alright. Hey, that's a nice voicing, two open string, thanks for showing
me.
>Time to switch to ukelele!
No way, you are having to much success figuring out tunes on the guitar. I
wish I had your patience. Keep it up!
Tom
Egídio Leitão
> Question: Is everything reversed in the southern hemisphere? Is up, down;
> good, evil; happy, sad? What an exotic land Brazil must be!
NuBossa,
It doesn't stop there, believe me (though I can't quote my sources).
The water goes down a drain in the reverse way as it does in the
northern hemisphere. Axe music is now Brazilian popular music. Joao
Gilberto -- say who? Reginaldo Rossi is the name nowadays -- though
he's having a tough competitor in Padre Rossi. There's a lot more, but
I'm afraid it'd be too controversial for this forum. It might even
start some flames.
---
;-{) Egídio
Brazilian music reviews:
o Simone's Discography: http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~egidio/Simone/
o Terra Brasilis: http://www.caravanmusic.com/TerraBrasilis.html
o Luna Kafé: http://www.fuzzlogic.com/lunakafe/
Gerry
<ksu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Of course, I've only attempted 3 JG songs so far, so now you're telling me I
> have to learn to play yet another string to play along with my hero?
> Yikes!!!!
> Time to switch to ukelele!
Ummm.... Surely you meant to say cavaquinho...?
Gerry
<ksu...@aol.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Gerry. I'm sure I will do this, as I got a lot out this exercise.
> Unfortunately, school's just started-up again(pre-pharmacy), so I may not have
> as much time in the near future to play. But I hope others will continue to
> discuss the guitar-stuff whether I'm asking or just lurking. Next stop for me
> is "Luz do Sol" by Caetano. I've always wanted to learn to play this- think
> I'll try to figure it out this weekend.
Which albun/CD is this on? I don't have but a few by Caetano, but I'll
take a listen if I do have it.
KSun28
Gerry,
>Which albun/CD is this on? I don't have but a few by Caetano, but I'll
>take a listen if I do have it.
This is going to sound strange, but I don't know! The version I have is
sung by Gal Costa on her "Meu Nome E' Gal" Compilation. To make matters more
difficult, she is accompanied by keyboard only! Nevertheless, I just love the
song, it reminds me of a perfect spring day. Maybe Daniella or someone else
will know if Caetano recorded it himself. (Maybe on that self-titled acoustic
guitar album?)
Kristi
e...@dnai.com
>Maybe Daniella or someone
else
> will know if Caetano recorded it himself. (Maybe on that self-titled
acoustic
> guitar album?)
Yes, it's on the "Caetano Veloso" album on Nonesuch. And a collection
called "Caetanear". Maybe another one, too?
Ashok
>
>NuBossa wrote:
>
>> Question: Is everything reversed in the southern hemisphere? Is up, down;
>> good, evil; happy, sad? What an exotic land Brazil must be!
>
>NuBossa,
>
>It doesn't stop there, believe me (though I can't quote my sources).
>The water goes down a drain in the reverse way as it does in the
>northern hemisphere.
>;-{) Egídio
Yes. That is due to the so-called Coriolis effect in physics, related
to the rotation of the earth. It is an apparent (or non-inertial or
frame-of-motion-dependent) force like centrifugal force, but the effects
are real enough. Some other interesting phenomena where the U.S. and
Brazil (North and South) differ are due to the same effect:
. U.S. has hurricanes (counter-clockwise air flow around a cyclone)
while Brazil has typhoons (clockwise air flow)
. River beds are dug deeper on the right in the U.S. while they
are dug deeper on the left in Brazil.
. Similarly, railroad tracks wear out faster on the right in
the U.S. and on the left in Brazil.
. Ringlets in women's hair curl in the opposite direction in
Brazil, relative to the U.S. (Anyone seen the Clark Gable
flick of 1945, "Adventure"?)
. Brazilian dogs turn right before lying down, while in the
U.S., dogs turn left in prepraration for lying down.
. England nearly lost the Malvinas-Falklands battle with
Argentina. For a while, while aiming missiles, they
used to make the Coriolis correction in the wrong direction,
as they were used to doing it in the North!0
. Finally, here is why the Corialis effect is highly relevant
for the group: CDs made in Brazil (meant to be played on
CD players meant to be used in Brazil) will play at wrong
speeds in the US (Likewise, US-bought CDs in Brazil.) It
was first noticed on LPs by fans of the Australlian rock
group Air Supply. I think the disagreement between Daniella
and Carlos on how fast the water appears to run in the
composition "Aguas do Marco" is explained by the Coriolis
effect. If Daniella is playing a Brazilian recording on
her Northern CD player, the water flow would appear just a
trickle to her, while Carlos would remember the water flow
being really forceful when he heard the recording in Brazil.
Those who want to bring Brazilian CDs to the US should
make sure that the CDs are produced in Manaus. There is
help for those of you already loaded with CDs spinning
at the wrong speed. A company in Sao Paulo makes a
Coriolis N. attachment that you can put on your CD players
to adjust the speed. The URL of the company is
Ashok
Carlos P. Falcão
be a Republican here ;-}). The dispute with my friend Daniella (and her
blood seems a bit more Latin than mine, probably due to a Coriollis
effect) refers to the very essence of that song. She quotes Cabral's
saying that Jobim told him that he and his wife (with a pencil) were
contemplating a stream on that site and he dictated: "É páu, é pedra, é
o fim do caminho..."
My version is based on an interiview with photos he gave to a Brazilian
magazine long ago in which he mentioned the tough times they went
through building that dreamed-of paradisiacal nest on top of a
wonderland hill surrounded by wilderness, with terrible access by
unpaved roads that get muddy throughout the monsoon. Jobim supervised
the whole project personally from its inception, as he was himself a
would be architect if he had chosen to pursue a career out of the music
world. This song portrays his struggle with mother nature to build his
dream, and all his drive to overcome the pain and suffering,
disappointments and frustrations he went through to reach his goal
(which he did). The references are all over the original lyrics in
Portuguese: "É o projeto da casa/É o corpo na cama/É o carro
enguiçado/É a lama, é a lama...É espinho na mão/é o corte no pé
(wilderness)...É João/É José (reference to construction workers). É o
fundo do poço/É o fim do caminho (bottom of water well, deep
frustration). No rosto o desgosto/É um pouco sozinho (ditto). Festa da
cumeeira... the optimistic part (Braz. folklore: party with lots of
music and booze local workers held whenever they finish the roof on a
construction project). Of course, there are many other feelings and
associated delusions in this song, expressed or implied.
I understand that for anyone to truly feel a song, no matter in in what
language, one should understand the real feeling the author meant to
express originally in each single note, so as to be able to really
appreciate all its depth and dimension. Unless, maybe, we talk about
cha-cha-cha or ukelele (may I hear from the mambo-jambo crowd).
Carlos
--
Eduardo
Brazilian rock Tităs.
Exclusive photos, the history of the band, music in RealAudio... Check!!
Thank you!
Eduardo
Ashok
>>
>>........................................ I guess Lula would
>be a Republican here ;-}).
Sure. A 19th century one! After all, the party of Lincoln.
In article <37C6C59B...@jps.net>, da...@jps.net says...
>
>Excellent post! Congratulations.
>
>The rich mixture of associations you mentioned certainly contributes to the
>artistic value of "Águas de Março,"
I second that. Had always wondered about those first names used in
the song.
but it would still be a great song based
>solely on the music and the sound of the lyrics --
The "sound" of lyrics?
and that's as it should be.
>A work of art should stand independently of the personal life of its author.
>
>Daniella
Still an early modernist, are you? :)
A question: What caused Elis to laugh at the recording?
Ashok
Daniella Thompson
> The "sound" of lyrics?
Of course. Poetry is as important for its sound as for the meaning of its
words.
Jobim wrote the English lyrics at the Adams Hotel in New York. First he tried a
translation, but both the meaning of the words and the sounds didn't work.
Finally he abandoned the idea of translating from the Portuguese and wrote
English lyrics from scratch based on their sounds. In both languages, the words
have short, hard, powerful sounds.
As for the meaning of the words, here's something that Carlos didn't tell us but
that he should like all the same.
In the liner notes accompanying the disc, Jobim transcribed part of the poem "O
Caçador de Esmeraldas" by Olavio Bilac:
Foi em março, ao findar das chuvas, quase á entrada
Do autono, quando a terra, em sede requeimada,
Bebera longamente as águas da estação
Que, em bandeira, buscando esmeraldas e prata
Á frente doe peões filhos da rude mata
Fernão Dias Paes Leme entrou pelo sertão
And Jobim observed: "Daí, creio, vêm as minhas Águas de Março."
Cabral adds that Otavio Bilac was a lifelong influence on Jobim. At the time of
"Águas de Março" Jobim also had a passion for the writings of Carlos Castaneda,
and Cabral speculates that some of Castaneda has found its way into the lyrics
as well. He concludes that it's apparent that "Águas de Março" was structured
in verses that alternate pessimism and optimism, although this wasn't done with
mathematical precision.
> >A work of art should stand independently of the personal life of its author.
>
> Still an early modernist, are you? :)
You consider that early modernism? I think it's a universal yardstick.
> A question: What caused Elis to laugh at the recording?
Cabral says that everything in that recording, although spontaneous-sounding,
was carefully rehearsed. Even Elis' laugh was suggested by Aloysio de Oliveira.
Daniella
NuBossa
>Cabral says that everything in that recording, although spontaneous-sounding,
>was carefully rehearsed. Even Elis' laugh was suggested by Aloysio de
>Oliveira.
And here I thought she was just laughing at Tom's singing. That's how it looks
anyway from the video clip of the recording that is included in Red, Hot and
Rio which is shown occasionally on Bravo. I suppose her smoking a cigarette at
the same time was also scripted. Oh well.
There are also some crazy outtakes from the recording of this song included on
"The Man From Ipanema" collection. I don't understand Portuguese, but at one
point you hear Tom saying, in English, "sexual delusions, alcoholic delusions".
Anyone know what the heck he was talking about here?
Tom
Carlos P. Falcão
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <7q6dln$ou2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bras...@aol.com says...
> >>
> >be a Republican here ;-}).
>
>
> In article <37C6C59B...@jps.net>, da...@jps.net says...
> >
> >Excellent post! Congratulations.
> >
> >The rich mixture of associations you mentioned certainly contributes
to the
> >artistic value of "Águas de Março,"
>
> I second that. Had always wondered about those first names used in
> the song.
>
> but it would still be a great song based
> >solely on the music and the sound of the lyrics --
>
> The "sound" of lyrics?
>
> and that's as it should be.
author.
> >
Thanks, Daniella and Ashok,
You made me feel real happy and proud to see my point went through the
cultural barrier to reach your full understanding. I am sure it will
help to add further dimensions and shades to your hearing palettes so
as to feel the depth of João's splutters, Mariano's and Deodato's
arrangements, etc.
Besides a great musician, Jobim was a sensitive poet and lyricist, at
times probably (my speculation) with some anonymous help from his close
friend, the master Carlos Drummond de Andrade, besides his partners, of
course. And all his poignant lyricism can be heard throughout his music
("the sound of lyrics", that is just perfect, as João does ALL the
time) that is closely intertwined to the verses, no matter whether he
wrote them or not.
I think such a sublime synergy characterizes all truly great musicians
no matter where they come from. For some strange phenomenon, Brazil has
produced a wide and growing number of such "geniuses" and "virtuosos"
during this century -- some will say in the past 150 years.
In closing, may I quote my childhood neighbor and first idol -- though
not a contemporary -- Noel Rosa: "Modéstia à parte/Meus senhores/Eu sou
da Vila" ;-{).
Um abraço,
Carlos
>
> Still an early modernist, are you? :)
>
> A question: What caused Elis to laugh at the recording?
>
> Ashok
Carlos P. Falcão
ADhar...@WorldBank.Org (Ashok) wrote:
> In article <7q6dln$ou2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, bras...@aol.com says...
> >>
> >be a Republican here ;-}).
>
>
> In article <37C6C59B...@jps.net>, da...@jps.net says...
> >
> >Excellent post! Congratulations.
> >
> >The rich mixture of associations you mentioned certainly contributes
to the
> >artistic value of "Águas de Março,"
>
> I second that. Had always wondered about those first names used in
> the song.
>
> but it would still be a great song based
> >solely on the music and the sound of the lyrics --
>
> The "sound" of lyrics?
>
> and that's as it should be.
> >A work of art should stand independently of the personal life of its
author.
> >
> >Daniella
>
>
> A question: What caused Elis to laugh at the recording?
>
> Ashok
Rehearsed or not, it sounds as a typical Ellis' final relief from the
extreme emotional tension she went through on a fast and passionate
counterpoint staccato bebop improvisation dueto with Jobim at the end
of which, nearly breathless, she just broke up in a nervous laughter
(typical Ellis) and probably got all wet as she was high. They probably
thought that was an added charm and left it on the final cut. Or
whatever Cabral said they told him it was.
Carlos
A Vila não quer abafar ninguém
Só quer mostrar que faz samba também
Noel Rosa
Daniella Thompson
> There are also some crazy outtakes from the recording of this song included on
> "The Man From Ipanema" collection. I don't understand Portuguese, but at one
> point you hear Tom saying, in English, "sexual delusions, alcoholic delusions".
> Anyone know what the heck he was talking about here?
Cabral again (he has a whole chapter called "Águas de Março"):
Several attempts were made to record the song (and he goes on to transcribe the
entire dialog between Tom and Elis during one of those takes). I'll skip to the
part you asked about.
Elis (searching for the best interpretation) - É uma cobra, é o pau. Tudo,
então. É difícil pegar isso no meio.
Aloysio - Mas esta está tão boa!
Tom - Mas não dá. É ilusão de sexo. É ilusão alcoólica. Sex illusion.
Aloysio - Então, vamos fazer toda.
Elis - Tudo de novo.
Tom - Alcoholic illusion.
Elis - Então vamos prestar atenção nesta bosta aqui.
After a little more bate-papo, they recorded the final version.
Daniella
Gerry
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <7q9hvk$p8o$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Carlos P. Falcão
<bras...@aol.com> wrote:
> You made me feel real happy and proud to see my point went through the
> cultural barrier to reach your full understanding. I am sure it will
> help to add further dimensions and shades to your hearing palettes so
> as to feel the depth of João's splutters, Mariano's and Deodato's
> arrangements, etc.
I printed your post out and stuck in the jacket of the LP. It's
required reading.
Gerry
<da...@jps.net> wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> Elis (searching for the best interpretation) - É uma cobra, é o pau. Tudo,
> então. É difícil pegar isso no meio.
> Aloysio - Mas esta está tão boa!
> Tom - Mas não dá. É ilusão de sexo. É ilusão alcoólica. Sex illusion.
> Aloysio - Então, vamos fazer toda.
> Elis - Tudo de novo.
> Tom - Alcoholic illusion.
> Elis - Então vamos prestar atenção nesta bosta aqui.
Am I the only one that thinks this could be "allusion" instead of
"illusion"? At least the sexual one. I don't know what the alcoholic
reference is...
And I think Cabral is full of shit when he says Elis' laugh is
scripted. This is not negotiable.
WALACE
NuBossa
>Am I the only one that thinks this could be "allusion" instead of
>"illusion"? At least the sexual one.
If you're referring to the snake reference, perhaps it's "delusion".
Tom
Gerry
<nub...@aol.com> wrote:
The line is: Tom - "Mas não dá. É ilusão de sexo. É ilusão alcoólica.
Sex illusion."
I assume the snake/stick reference is an allusion to sex. The alcholic
reference I suppose is the the DT's wherein one has hallucinations of
bugs and snakes and such.