Analysing Someday My Prince Will Come
Richard Rodseth
The first five chords are Bbmaj7 D7#5 Ebmaj7 G7#5 Cm7
I find that a whole tone scale is fine on the D7#5, but on the G7#5 I
really want to play a D natural rather than Db. G A B C D Eb F would be
fifth mode of C melodic minor, which I've seen described as Mixolydian b6,
though Mark Levine's book declines to give it a label, and says it is
rarely used.
Though I don't want the Db, the first (diminished) half of the altered
scale is fine. But what would G Ab A# B C D Eb F G be?
I suppose C harmonic minor (G Ab B C D Eb F G) would be fine too.
What's going on here harmonically? Other than the fact that I'm a square
:), why do I shy away from that Db? And what would you consider good scale
choices for improvising over those chords?
By the way, I'm enormously proud that my two-year-old daughter sings this
tune (someday I find a wuv)!
Thanks
Richard
Malte Rogacki
In article <rodseth-2107...@rodseth.apple.com>, Richard Rodseth
writes:
>
> I need a bit of help analysing Someday My Prince Will Come.
>
> The first five chords are Bbmaj7 D7#5 Ebmaj7 G7#5 Cm7
>
> I find that a whole tone scale is fine on the D7#5, but on the G7#5 I
> really want to play a D natural rather than Db. G A B C D Eb F would be
> fifth mode of C melodic minor, which I've seen described as Mixolydian
b6,
> though Mark Levine's book declines to give it a label, and says it is
> rarely used.
>
> Though I don't want the Db, the first (diminished) half of the altered
> scale is fine. But what would G Ab A# B C D Eb F G be?
That's the so called half-step/whole-step scale. Observe the spacing
between the notes, it is always half step - whole step and so on.
> I suppose C harmonic minor (G Ab B C D Eb F G) would be fine too.
That's what I would think of in the first place.
> What's going on here harmonically? Other than the fact that I'm a square
> :), why do I shy away from that Db? And what would you consider good
scale
> choices for improvising over those chords?
Harmonically spoken, the G7#5 (which is in my opinion a G7b13 actually)
forms a dominant chord to Cm7. I haven't thought why you would avoid the
Db
yet, but if it helps - I would avoid it, too.:-)
I think your choices so far are quite good.
> By the way, I'm enormously proud that my two-year-old daughter sings
this
> tune (someday I find a wuv)!
And how thrilling this moment will be...
--
Malte Rogacki ga...@sax.sax.de 10011...@compuserve.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't forget to TURN ON THE SYNTHESIZER. Often this is the reason why
you get no sound out of it." (ARP 2600 Owner's Manual)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Malte Rogacki
In article <95072220...@gacki.sax.de>, Malte Rogacki writes:
>
>
>
> In article <rodseth-2107...@rodseth.apple.com>, Richard Rodseth
> writes:
>
> >
> > I need a bit of help analysing Someday My Prince Will Come.
> >
> >
> > Though I don't want the Db, the first (diminished) half of the altered
> > scale is fine. But what would G Ab A# B C D Eb F G be?
>
> That's the so called half-step/whole-step scale. Observe the spacing
> between the notes, it is always half step - whole step and so on.
Ooops! Wrong, wrong, wrong. My typing fingers were faster than my brain.
I is *not* the half step/whole step scale.
So what is it? I'd like to think of it as the HM5 scale (harmonic minor
from the fifth step, G Ab B C D Eb F) with the added minor third Bb. And
that's a blue note anyway.
Sorry for the confusion.
Marc Sabatella
> I need a bit of help analysing Someday My Prince Will Come.
> The first five chords are Bbmaj7 D7#5 Ebmaj7 G7#5 Cm7
> I find that a whole tone scale is fine on the D7#5
I normally play this as a D7alt and use the dimininished whole tone scale; I
like the Eb in that scale. Then again, I also often substitute an E7alt in
this spot. Same whole tone scale basis, has the nice descending half step
thing in the bass going into the Ebmaj7.
> but on the G7#5 I
> really want to play a D natural rather than Db
Then go for it. No reason no to just use the G HW diminished scale, thinking
G7b9. Although the voicing I tend to use does have an Eb (common tone with
both the preceding and following chord) and Ab, which again suggests diminished
whole tone and doesn't include D. D isn't dissonant in that situation, though,
so you would certainly be free to use it over my voicing (Ab B Eb G).
> G A B C D Eb F would be
> fifth mode of C melodic minor
That works too. I prefer the Ab, which would actually make this fifth mode of
C harmonic minor. If I'm going to use the A, I would be more likely to just
use the whole tone scale. But of course this gives you the Db that you don't
want.
> Though I don't want the Db, the first (diminished) half of the altered
> scale is fine. But what would G Ab A# B C D Eb F G be?
Nothing with any name I've heard of, but don't let that stop you! Note the
C is probably an "avoid" note, but leaving it out doesn't yiled anything
common, either.
> why do I shy away from that Db?
I'm not sure. Perhaps because the D has figured prominently in all the
previous chords, and has a place in the next one as well.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Marc Sabatella
> > Though I don't want the Db, the first (diminished) half of the altered
> > scale is fine. But what would G Ab A# B C D Eb F G be?
> That's the so called half-step/whole-step scale. Observe the spacing
> between the notes, it is always half step - whole step and so on.
No it isn't; see the A# B C. Remember, this is American "B", not German :-)
Also, the Eb F G.
> Harmonically spoken, the G7#5 (which is in my opinion a G7b13 actually)
> forms a dominant chord to Cm7. I haven't thought why you would avoid the
> Db
> yet, but if it helps - I would avoid it, too.:-)
One thing the Db has in its favor melodically is half-step downward resolution
to the C that is the root of the following chord.
RMiller73
like the major third or dom 7th in a 7th chord
so you cant just find a way not to use it.
if you want to play another sound just change the chord
the #5 sound is just one variation of the dominant sound
and any person comping may choose to not include that #5
and sometimes you may even decide on another variation.
the half-step/whole step thing is called "symetrical dominant"
where i went to school.
it can be used when a nat13 and #11 are implied, which
is not implied by a #5 chord,
my advice, your only option is to change the chord character
(by the way all of this im typing is simply the way i learned it...
i have a way of coming across as preaching , im not)
josh
MARK LOPES
like that and saying on a piece of paper that you do or don't want notes
like that. if it works musically and in the line or phrase, It works,
If it doesn't , It doesn't no matter what note it is. As a player, all
this theoretical discaussion of chord scale relationships makes me forget
about the music. Do you guys play? let me know, are you burning? Did
this anylyzing help you to hear things in a new way or help your playing.
I am curious to hear Thanks.
Please mail me directly at
Mark Lo...@aol.com
or 75017...@compuserve.com
Thomas F Brown
>So, how do you guys think this way. How can you talk about avoiding notes
>like that and saying on a piece of paper that you do or don't want notes
>like that. if it works musically and in the line or phrase, It works,
>If it doesn't , It doesn't no matter what note it is. As a player, all
>this theoretical discaussion of chord scale relationships makes me forget
>about the music. Do you guys play? let me know, are you burning? Did
>this anylyzing help you to hear things in a new way or help your playing.
>I am curious to hear Thanks.
Theoretical analysis helps me organize practice routines and find
new ways to use an idea. When I come up with an idea I like, I use
theoretical understanding to exploit it completely by trying it in
various places theoretical knowledge tells me it might work in.
I don't think of theory very much while improvising unless I get
lost or run out of inspiration. In that case, it gives me something
to fall back on until I get going again. Mostly, theory helps
me to practice more effectively.
gsm
: So, how do you guys think this way. How can you talk about avoiding notes
: like that and saying on a piece of paper that you do or don't want notes
: like that. if it works musically and in the line or phrase, It works,
: If it doesn't , It doesn't no matter what note it is.
Maybe so. But what won't work on a Saturday or a Sunday nor on Tune A
or Tune B suddently begins to work on a Monday on Tune C. So working
with a concept and manifesting it in a line may not work at all--but that
doesn't discount it's utility. "If it works musically" doesn't
necessarily mean "if it sounds good". Something have worked for me that
sounded bad--since they furthered my understanding of a piece or a line
or a chord.
There's the old line of Edison's when quizzed about the invention of the
lightbulb. He said he tried 10 thousand elements that didn't work before
he found the right one. The interviewer asked how he must have felt
after so much failure. Edison was stunned. "What do you mean,
'failure'," he asked. "I found out 10 thousand things that wouldn't work!"
: As a player, all
: this theoretical discaussion of chord scale relationships makes me forget
: about the music.
I don't know why. Maybe you need to spend more time with theory and
analysis till you get more comfortable. I never forget how good a meal
tastes when I'm trying to figure out what the chef used for spicing and
how long he cooked it. I don't think music is a delicate, spiritual art
form that is somehow shattered by intellect and analysis. Of course
there are always technicians that are waylaid by the process rather than
the result. And there are always the 'primitives' who have as much
chance to sound crummy as fantastic.
: Do you guys play? let me know, are you burning? Did
: this anylyzing help you to hear things in a new way or help your playing.
Yes. Sometimes. Always.
: Please mail me directly at
: Mark Lo...@aol.com
: or 75017...@compuserve.com
--
///--- Gerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are two kinds of people in this world: those that divide |
| people into two groups of people, and those that don't. |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Benjamin
>
>
>Theoretical analysis helps me organize practice routines and find
>new ways to use an idea. When I come up with an idea I like, I use
>theoretical understanding to exploit it completely by trying it in
>various places theoretical knowledge tells me it might work in.
>
>I don't think of theory very much while improvising unless I get
>lost or run out of inspiration. In that case, it gives me something
>to fall back on until I get going again. Mostly, theory helps
>me to practice more effectively.
>
>
creation. It is really up to the musician *how* and *what* he or she
creates. The most effective musicians have these tools and draw upon them
when they create. Other musicians are limited by not having as many tools
in their "tool box". It actually becomes intuitive once it is
internalized.
Ben
Hal Cooper
>If it doesn't , It doesn't no matter what note it is. As a player, all
>this theoretical discaussion of chord scale relationships makes me forget
>about the music. Do you guys play? let me know, are you burning? Did
>this anylyzing help you to hear things in a new way or help your playing.
>I am curious to hear Thanks.
Yes it helps me to be analytical; however it is a crutch which would
hopefully lead to the subconcios nervana of burning? Yes, I play. If by
burning you mean "Can I play a lot of notes over Cherokee" Yes I can do
that but I don't really enjoy that my dick is bigger than yours type of
playing. I would rather search for something lyrical and new.
--
Hal Cooper - h...@teleport.com| The opinions and statements contained in this
MIS Manager | posting are the sole responsibility of the
Paper Products Marketing | author and have not in any way been reviewed
_____________________________| or approved by my employer.
Larry Lewicki
<:>So, how do you guys think this way.
It's the way I'm built. ;-} Seriously - I like to analyze things.
When I first started playing rock & roll piano years ago (we're
talking 1968 or '69) I found a set of notes that I liked over
blues progressions (though I didn't know that that was the type of progression).
Later when I would play a Yardbirds blues thing in D, I could steal a piece
of an Allman Brothers thing in G and apply it. This was my first "ah-ha"
experience with practical theory. I haven't let go since.
I don't find it that much of leap to use "my" blues scale - that I found
on my own - to using a scale that someone else has labeled.
Sometimes these scales don't work for me - but that's the same
as for most ideas. At least it gives a common vocabulary that people
can use to trade ideas and experiences. For example in the 21st bar
of Mahna de Carnival there is a dominant chord (if in Am - this is
a A7 with a Bb in the melody.) None of the Mark Levine scales do
it for me - the diminished scale has an F# which detracts from the
modulation to Dm - the altered scale has no natural 5th. I use
kind of a 5th mode of D harmonic minor with an added #9 (A Bb C C# D E F G).
I haven't read any theory about how this works but I can synthesize
pieces and feel comfortable with these scale choices.
<:>How can you talk about avoiding notes
<:>like that and saying on a piece of paper that you do or don't want notes
<:>like that. if it works musically and in the line or phrase, It works,
<:>If it doesn't , It doesn't no matter what note it is.
A lot of the avoid note stuff to me is not that useful. I don't think
about this stuff when I play single lines - I do think about it
when I voice chords. From your question I wonder what you have read
about this. The basic concept is that the 4th in a major scale is
an avoid note over a major 7th - e.g. don't play an F over a Cmaj7
because it forms a tritone with the B (maj 7th interval) and creates
a dissonance that robs from the feeling of resolution of the major 7th.
Additionally the F can form a b9 interval to E which is also pretty disonnant.
This rule is loose in that you can use the F as a passing tone, just
don't sit on it as if it were a whole note. The demarcation between passing
tones and intentional destinations in a line is pretty loose and open
to interpretation. Theoretically, the F is often modified and
converted to an F# - the lydian scale. Do I think about this stuff
when I am playing? I suppose if I am aware of it I may be thinking
about it at some level.
<:>As a player, all
<:>this theoretical discaussion of chord scale relationships makes me forget
<:>about the music.
It's a delicate balance for me. If I think *too* much I don't concentrate
on "singing" (for lack of a better metaphor) through my instrument. When
I am tired or off I tend to play the scale tones and not the emotional
thing - then it's a struggle to turn off the analytical side of my brain.
On the other hand - playing scales has made me hear certain things differently.
I'll hear an b9 #9 b9 triplet now and *know* what it is. This is because
I have analyzed Bird solos and cataloged the sound. Doesn't matter
what it's called - I have personally cataloged it. When I hear pianists do
minor third diminished chord runs - I hear precisely what they do because
it's a natural thing to practice from a theoretical standpoint. Etc.
As with most things, a balanced approach is probably the best - intuitive
only is limiting, analytical only is limited - a combination is greater
than the sum of the parts. The downside that I have with this personally
is that I tend to lean to the analytical. Because it's "for me at least"
easier. I work to control that and develop my other skills more.
This becomes a practice techique in and of itself - to control my approach.
Analyses as a means of turning on my intuition. (Also practicing to my
weaknesses.) It's a large question. Bird said something to the effect
that you learn a bunch of stuff then "forget" it and just play the
pretty notes. I am more in the learning to forget mode.
I would be the first one to admit that learning more theory has
affected my playing and not completely in a positive way. I think
that to some extent reading theory and then trying to apply it in
a situation has made my playing less lively. I do believe that
this is a delicate balance.
IMO the best players have the theory down but have enough confidence
(and skill) to let it go.........
<:>Do you guys play? let me know,
I make attempts at piano playing. Well enough that some people call me
for jobs. Not as well as I would like to play.
<:> are you burning?
Again not as much as I would like to be - but that is the human condition.
<:>Did
<:>this anylyzing help you to hear things in a new way or help your playing.
<:>I am curious to hear Thanks.
I think so.
Can you interpret a chart of something you haven't heard without a
theoretical understanding? How do you play Giant Steps without
knowing the chords?
<:>
<:>Please mail me directly at
<:>Mark Lo...@aol.com
<:>or 75017...@compuserve.com
---
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Larry Lewicki | National Semiconductor |Opinions are mine and in *NO* |
*l...@galaxy.nsc.com | Santa Clara, CA |way represent National Semi. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hal Cooper
>In article 7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com, mark...@aol.com (MARK LOPES) writes:
><:>So, how do you guys think this way.
>kind of a 5th mode of D harmonic minor with an added #9 (A Bb C C# D E F G).
I would call this D harmonic minor. The C is a passing tone. In a way
the C takes the harmonicness out of the sound. I don't like to do that.
I the harmonic sound isn't wanted then you might as well play Bb melodic
minor. I see this as a personal thing. This is what makes people sound
different.
>converted to an F# - the lydian scale. Do I think about this stuff
>when I am playing? I suppose if I am aware of it I may be thinking
>about it at some level.
When I play lydian, it is thought about. I think that is true of most folks.
For some reason that #11 just doesn't like to come out on its own. And,
it souds so nice - just like a cream cheese frosting!
>minor third diminished chord runs - I hear precisely what they do because
>it's a natural thing to practice from a theoretical standpoint. Etc.
Scales build ears - no doubt about it.
>As with most things, a balanced approach is probably the best - intuitive
>only is limiting, analytical only is limited - a combination is greater
>than the sum of the parts. The downside that I have with this personally
>is that I tend to lean to the analytical. Because it's "for me at least"
>easier. I work to control that and develop my other skills more.
I have trouble with this too. (I'm a Virgo)
>This becomes a practice techique in and of itself - to control my approach.
>Analyses as a means of turning on my intuition. (Also practicing to my
>weaknesses.) It's a large question. Bird said something to the effect
>that you learn a bunch of stuff then "forget" it and just play the
>pretty notes. I am more in the learning to forget mode.
>I would be the first one to admit that learning more theory has
>affected my playing and not completely in a positive way. I think
>that to some extent reading theory and then trying to apply it in
>a situation has made my playing less lively. I do believe that
>this is a delicate balance.
>IMO the best players have the theory down but have enough confidence
>(and skill) to let it go.........
No question about it.
><:> are you burning?
Help! I'm burning and I can't put out the fire. I had a friend like
that. He would burn double time for the whole tune on up tempo be-bop.
It is something I can't do; but I'm not sure I would want to either.
What does the audience want to hear? They want stories and a good "pull
together feeling"
>theoretical understanding? How do you play Giant Steps without
>knowing the chords?
Play it on drums.
Play it very slowly.
Take it out to Saturn.
Take a break and come back when the music starts.
Marc Sabatella
> For example in the 21st bar
> of Mahna de Carnival there is a dominant chord (if in Am - this is
> a A7 with a Bb in the melody.) None of the Mark Levine scales do
> it for me - the diminished scale has an F# which detracts from the
> modulation to Dm - the altered scale has no natural 5th. I use
> kind of a 5th mode of D harmonic minor with an added #9 (A Bb C C# D E F G).
> I haven't read any theory about how this works but I can synthesize
> pieces and feel comfortable with these scale choices.
Looks like Spanish phrygian to me.
I might have also thought about "A Bb C C# D# E F G" (ie, same as above but D#
instead of D) which I am pretty sure isn't anything "official".
To the original poster:
I had to think about all this at one time; playing a line that sounded remotely
"super locrian" would never have occurred to me had I not encountered the scale
in a theory book. Now, I don't have to think about it, I just do it. It might
not even be exactly that scale - who knows, I might through in a natural
seventh or ninth in there - but learning the scale made me aware of the sound.
Kind of like how, had you never heard jazz before, it might not have occurred
to a bassist to play walking bass lines, or drummers to play "ding ding-a ding
ding-a ding"; but for subtleties of harmony, usually just hearing it once or
twice isn't enough to get the hang of it; you have to "study" it in some sense.
Larry Lewicki
<:>In <DCyvq...@voder.nsc.com> l...@galaxy.nsc.com (Larry Lewicki) writes:
<:>
<:>>In article 7...@newsbf02.news.aol.com, mark...@aol.com (MARK LOPES) writes:
<:>><:>So, how do you guys think this way.
<:>>kind of a 5th mode of D harmonic minor with an added #9 (A Bb C C# D E F G).
<:>I would call this D harmonic minor. The C is a passing tone. In a way
<:>I the harmonic sound isn't wanted then you might as well play Bb melodic
<:>minor. I see this as a personal thing. This is what makes people sound
<:>different.
Hmmm - yeah I see what you are saying - the Bb to C# m3rd interval is
equivalent to harmonic minor because there is no other scale with this
jump. I guess I like the b9 #9 scale tone options. Maybe I should
describe this as a H-W diminished scale with a b13. I find that this
scale also works well over the second chord in "How Insensitive" (Dm
followed by A7/C# or A7b9/C#). Jobim used this type of progression
extensively (O Grande Amor is another example). You are definitely
correct - this is what makes people sound differently.
<:>
<:>>converted to an F# - the lydian scale. Do I think about this stuff
<:>>when I am playing? I suppose if I am aware of it I may be thinking
<:>>about it at some level.
<:>
<:>When I play lydian, it is thought about. I think that is true of most folks.
<:>For some reason that #11 just doesn't like to come out on its own. And,
<:>it souds so nice - just like a cream cheese frosting!
I think I started hearing this more because of endings in songs - like
Wes Montgomery's West Coast Blues or the Ebmaj7(#11) at the end of
bar 8 in Lucky Southern. It becomes a vocabulary issue. The #11
in dominant chords (4th mode of melodic minor) really strikes me
for II dominant chords - say bars 13 and 14 of "There Will Never Be
Another Ewe".
<:>>As with most things, a balanced approach is probably the best - intuitive
<:>>only is limiting, analytical only is limited - a combination is greater
<:>>than the sum of the parts. The downside that I have with this personally
<:>>is that I tend to lean to the analytical. Because it's "for me at least"
<:>>easier. I work to control that and develop my other skills more.
<:>I have trouble with this too. (I'm a Virgo)
I'm a Gemini - maybe it isn't astrologically specific.... ;-)
<:>
<:>>theoretical understanding? How do you play Giant Steps without
<:>>knowing the chords?
<:>Play it on drums.
<:>Play it very slowly.
<:>Take it out to Saturn.
<:>Take a break and come back when the music starts.
Hee hee.... Now how do you play Satellite???
L^2