Question about Coltrane's "Impressions" and Ravel's "Pavane"
Zerex71
In doing some research for program notes for tonight's gig, I ran
across one of the possible cited sources for Coltrane's "Impressions":
Maurice Ravel's "Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte". I ran this phrase
through a couple of online translators (it appeared to be French to me
at first but then I tried Italian). The translator sites cannot make
complete sense of the phrase, but from my limited Latin vocabulary,
the best I can decipher the title is "Pavane For a Dead Baby". I'm
serious. If you can provide some other explanation of what the title
might actually, I would be very interested to hear it. Thanks very
much!
Mike
Mark Bushaw
Infante comes up as Spanish Prince.
Mark Bushaw
Jack Campin - bogus address
> across one of the possible cited sources for Coltrane's "Impressions":
> Maurice Ravel's "Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte". I ran this phrase
> through a couple of online translators (it appeared to be French to me
> at first but then I tried Italian). The translator sites cannot make
> complete sense of the phrase, but from my limited Latin vocabulary,
> the best I can decipher the title is "Pavane For a Dead Baby".
Princess, not baby.
============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ==============
Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975
stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557
Mark Bushaw
Mark Bushaw
Jack Campin - bogus address
>>> across one of the possible cited sources for Coltrane's "Impressions":
>>> Maurice Ravel's "Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte". I ran this phrase
>>> through a couple of online translators (it appeared to be French to me
>>> at first but then I tried Italian). The translator sites cannot make
>>> complete sense of the phrase, but from my limited Latin vocabulary,
>>> the best I can decipher the title is "Pavane For a Dead Baby".
>> Princess, not baby.
It's in French, not Spanish.
Steve Cooper
When in doubt, check Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavane_pour_une_infante_d%C3%A9funte
They translate it as: Pavane for a Dead Princess
"Ravel dedicated the Pavane to his patron, the Princesse de Polignac."
Steve
Afoklala
> In a lecture I attended a few years ago, Lewis Porter said that the A
> section of "Impressions" is based on a melody from "Pavane for a Dead
> Princess", and the B section is based on a melody from Morton Gould's
> "Pavanne".
Sounds like an urban myth to me. Sure, there is some resemblance between
the two melodies, but why not consider the possibility that this is pure
coincidence? It's known to have happened before, two melodies being
somewhat alike...
Also, if there's anything quintessential about Ravel's pavane, it's its
slowness - and for Impressions one might argue the opposite is true.
Of course, it might be true, but unless someone can give me a direct quote
by Coltrane himself, I very much doubt it.
Oh, and by the way, as a professional translator, I might add that the
original message once again proves how far off translation programs are
still from being at all useful....
--
Jan Willem from Odijk, Netherlands
e-mail in From-field is wrong, real e-mail is:
jw point van point dormolen on xs4all point nl
(change point into dot, on into at)
And then there's this:
I can resist anything but temptation.
Sightreading
> In doing some research for program notes for tonight's gig, I ran
> across one of the possible cited sources for Coltrane's "Impressions":
> Maurice Ravel's "Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte".
I know for sure that Coltrane's tune is related to another Pavane
completely, Morton Gould's.
Anyway,
> through a couple of online translators
beware those traps!
> (it appeared to be French to me
> at first but then I tried Italian).
It is French indeed, meaning "Pavane for a dead child".
Zerex71
So you mean I was actually "right" in a sense (re: dead child)? I did
not think to check Wikipedia because it didn't come up in a Google
search, and I was in a bit of a hurry. A friend of mine told me she
saw it as "princess". I was also aware of the Gould reference as
well. I cited Ravel, Gould, and Miles Davis in the introductory
remarks last night, and the audience seemed to enjoy it.
Thanks for all of your help.
Mike
Marc Sabatella
> between
> the two melodies, but why not consider the possibility that this is
> pure
> coincidence?
Consider the fact that the resemblance is actually to two entirely
*different* pieces both with the word "Pavane" in the title (the "A"
section corresponding to the one by Gould, and "B" section to the one by
Ravel), and the facts that the title of Coltrane's tune is "Impressions"
and that most common word used to characterize the music of Ravel is
"impressionism". Also consider that we certainly we aren't talking an
obscure classical piece - both Pavanes had been turned into pop tunes
that Coltrane would likely have known, and Coltrane is also known to
have performed an arrangement of the Ravel Pavane in the late 40's.
Even without a direct quote from Coltrane regarding the original of
"Impressions", it would still seem to me that the possibility that the
resemblance is coincidental is negligible.
---------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Music, art, & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Zerex71
> > Sounds like an urban myth to me. Sure, there is some resemblance
> > between
> > the two melodies, but why not consider the possibility that this is
> > pure
> > coincidence?
>
> Consider the fact that the resemblance is actually to two entirely
> *different* pieces both with the word "Pavane" in the title (the "A"
> section corresponding to the one by Gould, and "B" section to the one by
> Ravel), and the facts that the title of Coltrane's tune is "Impressions"
> and that most common word used to characterize the music of Ravel is
> "impressionism". Also consider that we certainly we aren't talking an
> obscure classical piece - both Pavanes had been turned into pop tunes
> that Coltrane would likely have known, and Coltrane is also known to
> have performed an arrangement of the Ravel Pavane in the late 40's.
> Even without a direct quote from Coltrane regarding the original of
> "Impressions", it would still seem to me that the possibility that the
> resemblance is coincidental is negligible.
>
> ---------------
> Marc Sabatella
>
> Music, art, & educational materials
> Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"http://www.outsideshore.com/
Ahh, hello Marc! It's great to see you here again. I am in the
middle of skimming through your online primer again (it's great
reading, and now, after a while of letting it sit after the first
reading, it seems a lot more familiar and easy to understand in the
interim that I have learned so much more about theory). Thanks for
your insights, I was unaware of the further facts concerning
"Impressions".
I am writing a small treatise for myself on how to play over blues
progressions (specifically, the "science" behind what you can play
over V7 chords) and was wondering if I could send you a copy for a
quick review. It's just notes for myself to make sense of things.
Mike
lesterama
"Marc Sabatella" <m...@outsideshore.com> wrote:
>
> > Sounds like an urban myth to me. Sure, there is some resemblance
> > between
> > the two melodies, but why not consider the possibility that this is
> > pure
> > coincidence?
>
> Consider the fact that the resemblance is actually to two entirely
> *different* pieces both with the word "Pavane" in the title (the "A"
> section corresponding to the one by Gould, and "B" section to the one by
> Ravel), and the facts that the title of Coltrane's tune is "Impressions"
> and that most common word used to characterize the music of Ravel is
> "impressionism". Also consider that we certainly we aren't talking an
> obscure classical piece - both Pavanes had been turned into pop tunes
> that Coltrane would likely have known, and Coltrane is also known to
> have performed an arrangement of the Ravel Pavane in the late 40's.
> Even without a direct quote from Coltrane regarding the original of
> "Impressions", it would still seem to me that the possibility that the
> resemblance is coincidental is negligible.
Not to mention the fact that I just listened to Glenn Miller's version
of Gould's "Pavanne" and the orchestral portion after the sax solo
has a counter melody that's almost exactly like the "Impressions"
"A" section.
LA
lesterama
>Not to mention the fact that I just listened to Glenn Miller's version
>of Gould's "Pavanne" and the orchestral portion after the sax solo
>has a counter melody that's almost exactly like the "Impressions"
>"A" section.
Actually, that woodwind countermelody sounds like the entirety
of "Impressions", because when it repeats it goes up in key.
LA
patmp...@gmail.com
I also heard that Mahavishnu's "Dance Of Maya" came from "Green
Dolphin Street"....
Alan Mills
"Pavane"
Alan Mills (in Devon, England)
Robert
usual translation), or "Pavane for a Dead Child" (the literal translation).
The title has no real meaning and refers to nothing. Ravel made it up
simply because he liked the sound of the words.
Zerex71
Is that so? That is an interesting anecdote. It's kind of morbid
actually.
Mike
Jack Campin - bogus address
>> (the usual translation), or "Pavane for a Dead Child" (the literal
>> translation). The title has no real meaning and refers to nothing.
>> Ravel made it up simply because he liked the sound of the words.
> actually.
It's also nothing remotely like a pavane. Slow as it is, Ravel
didn't want it to drag too much - he said of one performance "it's
the princess that's dead, not the pavane".
Zerex71
Even more interesting...so now I have to ask, Where is all the story
of this particular piece of music documented? Is there a story behind
the piece, i.e. what was Ravel's intent?
foad
"Zerex71" <Zer...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1187011445.5...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> Even more interesting...so now I have to ask, Where is all the story
> of this particular piece of music documented? Is there a story behind
> the piece, i.e. what was Ravel's intent?
