Rudy Van Gelder background?
Peter Imbres
Van Gelder and his recording techniques/studio? I know he is secretive
about how he got those amazing sounds but I've been unable to turn up any
good resources. I'm especially interested in Blakey's drum sound.
Feel free to e-mail me directly with your responses if this is off-topic for
this group.
Thanks!
sjm...@sprint.ca
make grand pianos sound so consistently small and 'boxy'. Compare 60's
Blue Note piano sounds with Bill Evans late 50's Riverside sound. No
comparison.
As with Blakey's sound, to me it sounds like he pushed the levels
a bit over the edge so tape saturation and distortion was a part of
Blakeys' powerfull 'exploding' sound. An interesting choice, seemed
to work with Blakey's style.
St...
Jazzcorner
Probably DOWN BEAT had a feature in the past?
Willie
Faizal Ali
RVG, where he discusses some of the equipment he used. It might not be as
detailed as what you are looking for, but it is still fascinating stuff.
Luke Kaven
for clues. The mics are generally of recognizable make and model, although
reports have suggested that he did mic modifications.
That kind of drum sound is typically accomplished with three (sometimes two
or four) microphones. Depending upon the situation, there are one or two
overhead mics. I believe he did not originally use a coincident pair when
he used a pair. He uses small-diaphragm condensers for overheads, which
have the instantaneous response necessary to pick up cymbal hits (the
tik-tik part of the sound). You can hear this. Likely choices for him were
either the Schoeps M221B, or the Neumann KM53/KM54. The tube and
transformer-coupled characteristics of these mics did come into play.
Likely, one is placed over the hi-hat/crash/snare, and the other is placed
over the ride/tom. Keep the cymbals on-axis, or else they will sound
colored; or use a single omnidirecitonal mic. The third mic is placed out
from the kit anywhere from 3'out-3'up to 5'out-5'up. This mic is used to
capture the ambient kit sound, and it picks up the wood (listen to the
rimshots to get an idea), and doubles on the kick drum. This would be a
large-diaphragm condenser mic such as the Neumann U47.
For piano, try miking over sound holes 2 and 4 on the Steinway. Point one
mic towards the hammers in the upper octave, and point the other across the
mid-bass strings. Van Gelder appears to have used a Neumann U47 over sound
hole 2, and an RCA 44BX ribbon mic over sound hole 4 on the Herbie Nichols
sessions. By the way, on these sessions, Van Gelder is having slight
troubles with the drum sound. Two drums overheads are picking up hits on
the ride cymbal at slightly different times, resulting in two
just-discernible hits for each strike of the cymbal. Analysis with a wave
editor confirms that there are double-hits a few milliseconds apart. [Those
of you who haven't heard this before, forget that I said any of this, or
else it will drive you crazy when you hear it.]
Then of course there was the electronics he used, specifically the mic
preamps, which we don't know very much about. Possibly they were modified
RCA vacuum tube designs.
In addition, let us not forget that this was Van Gelder's famous living room
with the vaulted ceiling. He used the ambient character of the room
reflections to enhance the sound, apparently using room mics, and possibly a
ceiling mic by one report. He also made use of everything from plates to
springs. Also, there are obvious artifacts of compression.
It is a great sound, isn't it?
I don't know if you were thinking of doing recordings yourself. Modern mics
that can be used for similar effect would be:
1) KM84 (2) and, well, better a U47, but any of a number of modern U47-type
mics would be nice as well, such as the Neumann M147.
2) on a super budget: a pair of Oktava MK012 and a BPM TB95 will sound great
on a lot of things.
Best wishes, Luke
Peter Imbres <pim...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:gyxA5.188$4i5....@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
TheOtherOne
Josiah Gluck
<DE-LURK>
In article <8qvro1$bs3$1...@newsmonger.rutgers.edu>, "Luke Kaven"
<ka...@rci.rutgers.edu> wrote:
Many, many good things...
I wont' "quote" most of what was said in the interest of bandwidth but---
I think one of the things you/I/we hear when discussing the RGV sound
vs. today's sound is the change in gear over the years as well as the
shift in the prevailing aural aesthetic. No-- RGV did not record
(e.g.) the Dave Brubeck Qt, but that stereo spread of :
drums<----bass/sax---->piano
would be looked at somewhat askance today.
And before we proceeed-- and MOST importantly-- if the instrument
produces a mediocre sound, it will be recorded that way. With drums--
nothing beats (no pun intended) a good drum, properly tuned, and played
(I hesitate to say "hit") well and in the correct spot. Not many qatz
can do that...
While I still use many older tube mics, I'm using mostly modern solid
state pre-amps on either a Never VR or SSL console. That makes a big
difference in the sound. Older Neve Class-A pre-amps (and EQ ) modules
can readily be found in many studios that are not blesssed with an
older Neve console. RGV has had on old Neve for decades and he does
have that big room.
I, too, prefer small-diaphragm condensers for drum overheads. I've
usually set them up in a coincident fashion and while it does give a
pleasing overall image of the kit, lately I'm moving away from that
configuration as I tend to get a build-up of snare in the overall center
image. Placing the mics further apart and directly over the cymbals
provides me with more control of the individually mic'd elements of the
kit. I also sometimes use another pair close together and as high up
as I can get (and panned hard left/right) to get a sense of the
room--especially if it's a smaller booth. It sounds contradictory, but
I'm trying to get more of a sense of the kit as a whole in space--and
you get a lot of kick drum energy. Those overheads and room mics are my
main pick-up. I then back-fill with the closer mics to get the amount
of presence I want. Using just two mics for overheads, plus a third on
the kick can work well; I'd keep the third mic closer to the kick as
opposed to out front as that third mic will collapse the stereo image
somewhat. Ultimately, it comes down to your drummer treating the
*entire* kit as an instrument and if he or she can balance the sound of
the kit, it will make your job that much easier.
The rules are somewhat different for more fusion-y (some would say
"fuzak") sessions when the drums are tightly mic'd and processed.
First and foremost, the front head of the kick drum is almost always
removed, or there's a hole in it to facilitate getting the mic close to
the back side of the beater. The whole nature of the bottom end
changes, too, as it's most likely electric bass, and not acoustic bass
on those sessions.
Piano sound/micing is one of the more tricky and highly subjective
beasts out there. For starters, each one is different from the next.
I almost always use a coincident stereo mic (AKGC24) above the hammers
with two other "outrigger" mics spaced apart; one over the lower strings
and one nearer the high strings. It's then a matter of balancing the
tight vs. spaced sound until it sounds decent. (Again-- highly
subjective). I've done two sessions in one day on the same piano with
different players, and I always need to move the mics and re-balance.
Bass is another big area of debate. Unless it's demanded of me, I never
record the pick-up. It's always mics. I will use the pick-up if it's
a large session (like an 18-piece big band) and the pick-up is easier to
hear in the headphones for time and pitch, but it's oly for the
headphones. Well-- 99.99% of the time.
...ok. I'll get off the soapbox now.
JNG
Chuck Nessa
in front of the kit. You can get an idea of the top mikes in the photos
included with the Impulse date by the Messengers.
There seems to be a confusion of the 2 RVG studios. The first was indeed
a living room (his parents') in Hackensack. This was used from 1953
until July 1959. At that point he opened a "dedicated" studio, built to
his specs, in Englewood Cliffs - this is the one with the "vaulted
ceiling".
CN
Luke Kaven wrote:
>
> That kind of drum sound is typically accomplished with three (sometimes two
> or four) microphones. Depending upon the situation, there are one or two
> overhead mics. I believe he did not originally use a coincident pair when
> he used a pair. He uses small-diaphragm condensers for overheads, which
> have the instantaneous response necessary to pick up cymbal hits (the
> tik-tik part of the sound). You can hear this. Likely choices for him were
> either the Schoeps M221B, or the Neumann KM53/KM54. The tube and
> transformer-coupled characteristics of these mics did come into play.
> Likely, one is placed over the hi-hat/crash/snare, and the other is placed
> over the ride/tom. Keep the cymbals on-axis, or else they will sound
> colored; or use a single omnidirecitonal mic. The third mic is placed out
> from the kit anywhere from 3'out-3'up to 5'out-5'up. This mic is used to
> capture the ambient kit sound, and it picks up the wood (listen to the
> rimshots to get an idea), and doubles on the kick drum. This would be a
> large-diaphragm condenser mic such as the Neumann U47.
Liisa Mccloy-Kelley
pim...@bellatlantic.net wrote on 9/27/00 9:55 PM:
> Does anyone know of any books or Web sites that gives a good background of
> Van Gelder and his recording techniques/studio? I know he is secretive
> about how he got those amazing sounds but I've been unable to turn up any
> good resources. I'm especially interested in Blakey's drum sound.
The real mystery of RVG's recording technique came from his background as a
dentist...
TheOtherOne
Lincoln
>Anyone care to comment on why Van Gelder chose to
>make grand pianos sound so consistently small and 'boxy'. Compare 60's
>Blue Note piano sounds with Bill Evans late 50's Riverside sound. No
>comparison.
>As with Blakey's sound, to me it sounds like he pushed the levels
>a bit over the edge so tape saturation and distortion was a part of
>Blakeys' powerfull 'exploding' sound. An interesting choice, seemed
>to work with Blakey's style.
>
About the piano.
I had a discussion years ago about this and I still believe it to be
true. Before about 1960, Jazz was thought of and was predominantly
music for small clubs. Most of the best bands still played engagements
in clubs even if they did concerts. However in the 60's, you started
to see more live concert hall performances. The concept of the piano
was a "smaller" one. The sound of the entire band was more of a small
stage type sound. The more appropriate sound was that of a smaller
grand to create intimacy. Later in the 60's, the sound of a larger
grand became more standart.
RE: Blakey, I think it was just the sound they were going for. Listen
to Free For All. Man of Man, THAT'S some powerful drumming.
The concept was taken further with rock bands. Even back with Sam
Phillips recording Elvis and all of those, they used those old Radio
compressers and limiters and pumped the levels through tube equipment.
It sounded great. Listen to early Hendrix's recordings, and early
Beatles, and early Led Zeppelin. It was all about riding everything to
the point where the board was just pumping and starting to break up
and it created an edge to all the instruments.
It always seemed to me like that was the same thing they were doing
with Blakey.
Lincoln
Bruce LeClaire
Lincoln wrote, in part:
>
> Before about 1960, Jazz was thought of and was predominantly
> music for small clubs. [...]
If you ask me, jazz (or is it Jazz?!) still is music for small clubs. I
want to be sitting right up close, watching the musician connect with
their instruments, close enough to watch the beads of sweat rolling off
their forehead, seeing the looks of pain and joy as they create their
music.
That's what it's all about for Jazz!
--Bruce
Blue Lake
"Lincoln" <linc...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:39d4c77d....@news.tm.net...
>
> >Anyone care to comment on why Van Gelder chose to
> >make grand pianos sound so consistently small and 'boxy'. Compare 60's
> >Blue Note piano sounds with Bill Evans late 50's Riverside sound. No
> >comparison.
I'd been told and thought it made sense that the VanGelder piano sound was
to limited the over tone series so you'd better hear the front-line horns.
To "make room" for the front-line. Lazaro Vega, Blue Lake Public Radio
Lincoln
probably how he created such a great silence for the backdrop and the
horns sounded so good.
Got anymore secrets like that?
Lincoln