The problem with Scofield
wreeve
Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
Scofield.
Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
Comments anyone?
wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com
Digum smak
This jazz musican bashing is getting really out of hand. Scofield is an
acomplished player, who like Metheny has a voice that is his own. I have
played with many guitarists who do not have their own sound or are a
combination of several recognizable styles. Are these postings being
placed to create tension and interest or what? The problem with Scofield
is that he is much more musicial and successful than you. You can't fuck
with people who played with Miles, cause that's some bad ass shit. Now
give this a break it ain't Kenny G were talking about here.
Tim Hochman
Bassist/Composer/Instructor
Colorado Springs, Co.
719-634-8299
Marc Lensink
wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) wrote:
: Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
Wow, this could become an interesting thread...
I wonder how many people will actually agree with you,
I certainly don't.
I guess if you define jazz the same way Wynton Marsalis defines it,
you're right, but I wouldn't. Scofield has some very uninteresting
records, but most of it is simply genius.
Scofield fans, take a look at http://www.c-and-c.si/sco/index.html,
it's fairly new, but looks good.
Marc Lensink
--
Mike Stern : http://www.cecam.fr/stern/
Pat Metheny : http://www.cecam.fr/metheny/
DZ/015
wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) wrote:
> : Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
> : Scofield.
> : Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
> : any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
> : Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
> : Comments anyone?
wreeve needs some ear training. John Scofield is one of the most
harmonically and rhythmically advanced jazz musicians in the world.
His solos are complex, yes, and difficult to digest after just a few
listens. Sco has a very dark sense of melody and can swing his ass off,
abelit mostly in a complex polyrhythmic manner.
He is also an incredible composer: all of his Blue Note records consist
of 100% original material. Most will become tomorrow's jazz standards.
If you've only listened to his fusion experiments on Gammavision,
you've never heard John Scofield, jazz guitarist extraordinaire.
Pat Metheny and John Scofield are the Bird and Coltrane of the guitar.
Mark S Fraser
wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) writes:
> Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
> Scofield.
> Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
> any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
> Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
> Comments anyone?
Now I can actually relate to this one. I used to hate Scofield, except for
his work with Marc Johnson's Bass Desires, mostly because of what I used
to call "that incessant syrupy chorus". The tone of his guitar drove me
nuts. However like many other musicians I had to keep an open mind and
check him out and now I absolutely love his playing and his tone. His
album with Bill Frisell "Grace under Pressure" and "Flat Out" are two of
my favourites. His phrasing is so smooth and fluid. Incase some of you
hadn't noticed you don't have to play those rinky-dink "doo-dee doo-dee"
eighth-notes to swing. Sco's swing, as I hear it anyway, is accomplished
through accents while the eighth-notes are virtually straight. Not
completely but not that hackkneed triplet eighth feel. As for direction
what can I say... if you don't hear the phrasing (melodies) and you don't
hear the swing (rhythms) you ain't gonna hear the direction. Incidentally
I went to a Sco clinic last year and he said his music is perhaps closer
to R'n'B. Who really cares? I know Sco isn't goona get all weepy 'cause
the folks at RMB decided he can't call himself a jazz guitarist anymore.
And I definitely don't agree that playing with Miles makes you a jazz
untouchable. Mike Stern played with Miles and I personally don't really
consider his music jazz. If Miles made an album with Hendrix it wouldn't
make Jimi a jazz guitarist.
peace,
mark
--
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
Jebediah Springfield
Jaco87
Haven't found problem with Scofield's playing yet. Don't know why anyone
would bash him for such a thing? He and Mike Stern are my two favorite
guitarists - they can do it all!
----------------------------------------------------------
Mike
(Jac...@aol.com)
"Women, children and rhythm section first!"
----------------------------------------------------------
J. Gonzales
In article <321189...@cayman.vf.lmco.com>, wre...@cayman.vf.lmc.com wrote:
> Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John...
Everyone's ear for jazz is different. I happen to like a great amount of
Scofield's work. I encourage you to wait until you hear a new CD of his
that should be released soon. You may change your mind.
Also, check out some of his older stuff.
Regards,
JimmyGonzales
Don Gauthier
Mark S Fraser wrote:
>
> wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) writes:
> > Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
> > Scofield.
> > Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
> untouchable. Mike Stern played with Miles and I personally don't really
> consider his music jazz.
> mark
>
> --
> "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
> Jebediah Springfield
>
>
Q: What do you personally consider Mike Stern's music as?
Don
Geoff Gray
In article <321189...@cayman.vf.lmco.com>,
on Wed, 14 Aug 1996 08:08:28 +0000,
wreeve <wreeve> writes:
>Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
>Scofield.
>Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
>Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
Hmmm... for me, Scofield's "problem" is similar to Metheny's... his
chops and skills aren't the issue, but what he chooses to record and
with whom he chooses to work. I've always been partial to the two
records he did as part of the Marc Johnson (bass) group Bass Desires,
with Bill Frisell, Johnson and Peter Erskine -- especially the first
one. His soloing on Coltrane's "Resolution" is crisp, jazzy, and sets
up a fascinating contrast with Frisell's following solo on guitar
synthesizer. (The Bass Desires records are on ECM, by the way.) I'm
also fond of his quartet recordings with saxophonist Joe Lovano, on
Blue Note; they feature Charlie Haden on bass on at least 1 CD, and
drummers Jack DeJohnette (with Lovano/Haden) or Bill Stewart.
By comparison, I'm less impressed with his more R n' B-influenced
releases, such as the Gramavision discs. But you never know what Sco
can do next...!
Regards, Geoff Gray, c/o IBM Corporation * Standard disclaimers apply.
Mark S Fraser
Don Gauthier (do...@best.com) writes:
> Mark S Fraser wrote:
>>
>> wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) writes:
>> > Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
>> > Scofield.
>> > Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
>> And I definitely don't agree that playing with Miles makes you a jazz
>> untouchable. Mike Stern played with Miles and I personally don't really
>> consider his music jazz.
>> peace,
>> mark
>>
>> --
>> "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
>> Jebediah Springfield
>>
>>
>
> Q: What do you personally consider Mike Stern's music as?
>
> Don
Well I guess I can't really answer that. I guess I just hear alot more
blues and rock influence than jazz influence, even when he's playing
standards. Don't get me wrong, I love Stern, I just don't think it sounds
much like jazz to me but what do I know? As in my previous post I'm sure
I'm not breaking Stern's heart.
Alex Bunardzic
act...@lava.net (DZ/015) wrote:
>Pat Metheny and John Scofield are the Bird and Coltrane of the guitar.
While I agree that Scofield is one of the greatest living guitarists,
I would still hand the title "Coltrane of the guitar" to John
McLaughlin.
Alex
Marc Lensink
Mark S Fraser (cj...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: Don Gauthier (do...@best.com) writes:
: >
: > Q: What do you personally consider Mike Stern's music as?
: Well I guess I can't really answer that. I guess I just hear alot more
: blues and rock influence than jazz influence, even when he's playing
: standards. Don't get me wrong, I love Stern, I just don't think it sounds
: much like jazz to me but what do I know? As in my previous post I'm sure
: I'm not breaking Stern's heart.
Well, after all Mike started more or less as a rock guitarist for
Blood, Sweat & Tears. After that he went to play with Miles, who
was also venturing into rock music.
However, I would sooner qualify his music as jazz than rock.
BTW, I consider Scofield (after all, it's his thread) more 'jazz' than Stern.
Marc
--
The Mike Stern Homepage: http://www.cecam.fr/stern/
DZ/015
In article <4uvl9c$m...@news.bctel.net>
a_bun...@bcinfohealth.com (Alex Bunardzic) writes:
> While I agree that Scofield is one of the greatest living guitarists,
> I would still hand the title "Coltrane of the guitar" to John
> McLaughlin.
This may start another thread, but I find McLaughlin's solos much too
linear and scale-based for him to be considered "Coltrane" of the
guitar. Whereas Scofield is the most harmonically advanced guitar
player I've ever heard -- which is why I give him the title "Coltrane
of the guitar".
DZ/015
Jayson Tipp
Geez.....
So, the fact that Sco worked with Miles, Gary Burton, McCoy Tyner, John
Abercrombie, etc. gets no mention.
Sco is prominently featured on a number of duets on a recent McCoy Tyner
album "Things Ain't What They Used TO Be". I was surprised that he was
doing the work, I was impressed with the fact that his tone seemed in
contrast with the premise of the recording, but the playing was
outstanding jazz. Now, even though I'm not a McCoy fan (though I am a
keyboard player), I love the tunes which include Sco.
Have you ever heard the album (I think it might be a Japanese recording)
Sco did in the 70'2 called "East Meets West". It's another great
example of Sco as a player.
And, regardless of his past work for Grammavision, have you heard the
action on "Hand Jive"?
There's a webpage for Sco on the net..check it out.
.25X2
Gary Valentin
>>>>> "Tim" == Digum smak <digu...@aol.com> writes:
Tim> Are these postings being
Tim> placed to create tension and interest or what? The problem with Scofield
Tim> is that he is much more musicial and successful than you.
Oh - that's so deep.
Tim> You can't fuck
Tim> with people who played with Miles, cause that's some bad ass shit. Now
Tim> give this a break it ain't Kenny G were talking about here.
Well, yes, I'll give you that. And I don't understand hoe Scofield
got to play with miles. It's very strange. I don't think he deserves
to be put in the same category as John McLaughlin. But the way John's
been playing nowadays...
--
____________________________________________________________________
garyValentin IBM DB2 Optimizer, Run-Time, and Performance
rud...@vnet.ibm.com | And the sand, and the sea
(416)-448-3467 | it grows - I close my eyes.
(TL)-778-3467 | Move slowly through the drowning waves (the cure)
scottst.itg.a...@ohsu.edu
len...@tonka.bu.edu (Marc Lensink) writes:
>wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) wrote:
>: Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
>: Scofield.
>Wow, this could become an interesting thread...
>I wonder how many people will actually agree with you,
>I certainly don't.
>I guess if you define jazz the same way Wynton Marsalis defines it,
>you're right, but I wouldn't. Scofield has some very uninteresting
>records, but most of it is simply genius.
>Scofield fans, take a look at http://www.c-and-c.si/sco/index.html,
>it's fairly new, but looks good.
The problem with Scofield is that he has heard funk and rock and incorporates
it into his style. Like it or not, it has to be marketed as "jazz" since
there are no vocals on it.
It may not be up your alley, but I like it just fine. I was sure disappointed
when he cancelled his Seattle dates earlier this year. I hope he returns to
the Northwest US sometime soon. - S.
scottst.itg.a...@ohsu.edu
Don Gauthier <do...@best.com> writes:
>Mark S Fraser wrote:
>> wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) writes:
>> > Scofield.
>> untouchable.
was in his band?
What defines jazz? If it is based on improvisation, isn't it jazz? - S.
Gary Valentin
>>>>> "DZ/015" == DZ/015 <act...@lava.net> writes:
DZ/015> wreeve (wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com) wrote:
>> : Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
>> : Scofield.
>> : Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
>> : any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
>> : Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
>> : Comments anyone?
DZ/015> wreeve needs some ear training. John Scofield is one of the most
DZ/015> harmonically and rhythmically advanced jazz musicians in the world.
Oh. That's probably why he's so boring.
DZ/015> Pat Metheny and John Scofield are the Bird and Coltrane of the guitar.
I don't think so. I really don't think so.
Gary Valentin
>>>>> "wreeve" == wreeve <wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com> writes:
wreeve> Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
wreeve> Scofield.
wreeve> Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
wreeve> any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
wreeve> Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
wreeve> Comments anyone?
wreeve> wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com
I think you're absolutely right.
He leaves me cold. I saw his show - and the only reason I enjoyed it
was because Larry Goldings was on the organ and he was doing some
interesting things.
Thorleif Hoff
a_bun...@bcinfohealth.com (Alex Bunardzic) wrote:
>act...@lava.net (DZ/015) wrote:
>>Pat Metheny and John Scofield are the Bird and Coltrane of the guitar.
>While I agree that Scofield is one of the greatest living guitarists,
>I would still hand the title "Coltrane of the guitar" to John
>McLaughlin.
>Alex
RIGHT ON!!! Alex - you're the man!
I think Scofield is a great player, original and with a voice of his
own. And he can swing, allright! What more can you ask for? However,
he is nowhere near being on the same plane as McLaughlin, IMHO.
Thorleif
JFR
Can you name some "jazz" guitarists you like? That might make it
easier to understand why you think this way about Scofield. Then we
can discuss.
In <321189...@cayman.vf.lmco.com> wreeve
<wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com> writes:
>
>Another so called Jazz guitarist that is!! overated is King John
>Scofield.
>Everything I have heard has; No direction, melodic flow, swing or
>any signs of bop & straight ahead jazz. Isn't that jazz.
>Am I the only one who thinks he should move over to the Rock World?
>Comments anyone?
>wre...@cayman.vf.lmco.com
Doug Wamble
scottst.itg.a...@ohsu.edu wrote:
> What defines jazz? If it is based on improvisation, isn't it jazz? - S.
I don't think so. Eddie Van Halen improvises. Bach improvised.
Modern rock bands like Dave Matthews, Blues Traveler, Phish,
Widespread Panic, etc., all improvise a great deal.
Yet none of this would be considered Jazz, would it?
Doug
Aws ortho
I think I can empathize with the first poster. Scofield is certainly
harmonically advanced and has some good melodic ideas (especially on the
Joe Henderson album, So Near So Far), but sometimes he comes off sounding
like a guitarist in a surf band or something. There always seems to be an
element of cheese in his music. Like on his album "Meant To Be", the band
is fantastic, Joe Lovano plays wonderfully, but Scofield's tunes and his
solos (for the most part), IMO, tend to sound corny.
I much prefer Frisell...some Abercrombie...and maybe Metheny on
"Rejoicing"
Walter Davis
In article <321603...@nwu.edu>,
look at the "what is jazz?" question (although I don't really consider
that a question that can ever be answered). I think he thought of his
idea as a rather "off the top of his head" response, but nevertheless I
kinda dug it but never followed up on it. My memory is that he listed 5
aspects of music - I think swing, blues, improvisation, maybe
innovation, and maybe something to do with structures - and proposed
that none of these was necessary nor sufficient to make something jazz.
Some jazz might have a lot of swing and blues but not much improv.
Similarly it might be high on improv, have some swing and blues but not
much, etc.
It's as if we could assign a 10 point scale to each of the elements,
give a tune a score for each of those elements, add them up (perhaps
weighting some elements more than others) and saying something like:
scores under 10 aren't jazz, 10-30 are borderline, 30+ is jazz. Of
course, such a thing would be impossible. But I much prefer the idea
that if music has a sufficient amount of all the elements which
constitute jazz, in whatever combination, we'll call it jazz to the idea
that one or two elements must be present and perhaps even dominant.
Kinda too bad it's not possible because it might solve a lot of our
problems. Highly improvisational music that truly does ignore all the
other jazz elements would, at best, be considered borderline jazz.
Music with a strong emphasis on swing and blues would at least be around
the middle of the borderline group and, assuming they had some
improvisation in there, would probably top 30. Highly improvisational
and innovative music which makes at least some use of swing and blues
would also be almost assured of topping 30.
Yes, I know it would still be problematic and no I'm not offering this
as a serious definition of jazz.
-walt
Walter Davis walter...@unc.edu or
Department of Sociology and wdavi...@mhs.unc.edu
Health Data Analyst at the ph: (919) 962-1019
Institute for Research in Social Science fax: (919) 962-4777
UNC - Chapel Hill
H. Loess
Doug Wamble <c-sch...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>> What defines jazz? If it is based on improvisation, isn't it jazz?
>I don't think so. Eddie Van Halen improvises. Bach improvised.
>Modern rock bands like Dave Matthews, Blues Traveler, Phish,
>Widespread Panic, etc., all improvise a great deal.
>Yet none of this would be considered Jazz, would it?
I still wonder about Bach . . . unfortunately, the present technology
does not allow us to hear any of his improvisations, particularly
multiple improvisations from different occasions based on the same
material. Until this is possible, I am reluctant to definitively
exclude him from my notion of so-called 'jazz'. :-)
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
CHill3644
Jesus!!!!!!! Have none of you guys actually listened to Time on My Hands?
Sco is one of the few musicians in these times, on ANY instrument, that's
really carrying on the jazz ethos. He's writing beautiful music,
improvising (not just playing licks, but singing through his instrument),
and playing like it's his last day on this earth.........IMHO
CHil...@aol.com (Carl Hillman)
DZ/015
In article <4v6fg6$c...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
chil...@aol.com (CHill3644) writes:
Right on! I rarely (these days at least) ever hear Scofield play
anything that doesn't strike me as fresh, harmonically-inventive, and
down-right hip jazz lines... I would kill for his ears :^)
Ashley Capps
In article <4v5vd6$5...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, awso...@aol.com (Aws
ortho) wrote:
> I think I can empathize with the first poster. Scofield is certainly
> harmonically advanced and has some good melodic ideas (especially on the
> Joe Henderson album, So Near So Far), but sometimes he comes off sounding
> like a guitarist in a surf band or something. There always seems to be an
> element of cheese in his music. Like on his album "Meant To Be", the band
> is fantastic, Joe Lovano plays wonderfully, but Scofield's tunes and his
> solos (for the most part), IMO, tend to sound corny.
Amusingly enough, these are some of the qualities that I enjoy in
Scofield's work. What you hear as cheese and corn, I hear as very humorous
and clever. I love the way his guitar tone can conjure up memories of
surf music and sixties garage bands. And in addition to his harmonically
advanced and good melodic ideas, he also has an impeccable sense of
timing. Very witty stuff. I can't help but wonder if Sco's music isn't
just a little too much fun for those who like their jazz SERIOUS, SERIOUS,
SERIOUS?
Ashley
Mark S Fraser
A good example of Sco's sense of humor is the tune, which I think is on
Meant To Be and sounds very, very reminicent of "Tequila". It's called "SO
Sue Me". I also wonder how many people get the "I can see your house from
here" joke. It's the punch line of a joke that relates to the cover art.
Alex Bunardzic
act...@lava.net (DZ/015) wrote:
>> While I agree that Scofield is one of the greatest living guitarists,
>> I would still hand the title "Coltrane of the guitar" to John
>> McLaughlin.
>This may start another thread, but I find McLaughlin's solos much too
>linear and scale-based for him to be considered "Coltrane" of the
>guitar. Whereas Scofield is the most harmonically advanced guitar
>player I've ever heard -- which is why I give him the title "Coltrane
>of the guitar".
Interesting, but my "gestalt" of Coltrane is not harmonical
sophistication. The first thing that comes to mind when I think about
Coltrane is emotional intensity and maddening virtuosity -- and the
most emotionally intense and maddeningly virtuosic guitarist I've
heard is McLaughlin.
Alex
DZ/015
In article <4va62o$p...@news.bctel.net>
a_bun...@bcinfohealth.com (Alex Bunardzic) writes:
> Interesting, but my "gestalt" of Coltrane is not harmonical
> sophistication. The first thing that comes to mind when I think about
> Coltrane is emotional intensity and maddening virtuosity -- and the
> most emotionally intense and maddeningly virtuosic guitarist I've
> heard is McLaughlin.
You've obviously never studied Coltrane. I studied breifly with David
Leibman, perhaps the world's foremost Coltrane expert. Harmony IS the
major element in Coltrane's playing...AS in Scofield's, NOT
McLaughlin's.
> Coltrane is emotional intensity and maddening virtuosity
While I agree with this statement, it is entirely subjective; whereas
the harmonic analysis of Coltrane's playing in entirely objective and
scholastic.
You probably believe in Jesus, too. That'd be your right, of
course...but then you'd be completely wrong about that too.
christopher john smith
In article <4va62o$p...@news.bctel.net>,
Alex Bunardzic <a_bun...@bcinfohealth.com> wrote:
[snip]
>Interesting, but my "gestalt" of Coltrane is not harmonical
>sophistication. The first thing that comes to mind when I think about
>Coltrane is emotional intensity and maddening virtuosity -- and the
>most emotionally intense and maddeningly virtuosic guitarist I've
>heard is McLaughlin.
there's a guy who lives in milwaukee wisconsin named jack grassel, and teaches
at an area music college. he doesn't tour, because, to quote him directly
"it gets in the way of my practice regimen" (!!), but he does record and play
in the local clubs there. he is certainly among the most "harmonically-advanced
guitarists" i can think of, and has done, to my ears, an especially impressive
job of translating the dissonant, substitution-heavy, "maddeningly virtuosic",
angular idiom of eric dolphy, if not coltrane. this is NOT to call grassel
the "coltrane of the guitar," but he's done an amazing job of translating
eric dolphy et al. certainly one of the most "modern" players i know.
also a plug here for the harmonic sophistication of mick goodrick. don't
forget that metheny, mike stern, and scofield ALL studied with this guy, and
while he's not interested in blinding 16th notes at MM 300, he's certainly
one of the more harmonically-sophisticated players i can think of.
cjs
--
Chris Smith - Lecturer in World Music; Producer: "One World" WFIU 103.7FM
Musician: Altramar medieval music ensemble; Amandla (African jazz);
The B.O.M.B. Ensemble (Baroque music). Martial Artist: Shaolin Kung Fu.
(WWW) http://www.indiana.edu/~smithcj (p) 812/855-2664; (f) 812/855-0729
Jayson Tipp
I saw it written once in an article on Sco (perhaps the 'King John'
article in Downbeat?) that Sco is sais to have done on guitar
harmonically what had been done only on keyboard before. I don't know,
but I'd love lay keys behind him sometime.
.25X2
JFR
I don't think either of them qualify for this title. While I agree
that one is too scalar and the other is harmonically more advanced, I
don't think either one of their actual lines are much like some of
Coltrane's periods.
My vote would be Pat Martino especially comparing his Consciousness
recording with Black Pearls and Soultrane.
In <4v129d$p...@mochi.lava.net> act...@lava.net (DZ/015) writes:
>
>In article <4uvl9c$m...@news.bctel.net>
>a_bun...@bcinfohealth.com (Alex Bunardzic) writes:
>
>> While I agree that Scofield is one of the greatest living
guitarists,
>> I would still hand the title "Coltrane of the guitar" to John
>> McLaughlin.
>
>This may start another thread, but I find McLaughlin's solos much too
>linear and scale-based for him to be considered "Coltrane" of the
>guitar. Whereas Scofield is the most harmonically advanced guitar
>player I've ever heard -- which is why I give him the title "Coltrane
>of the guitar".
>
>DZ/015
Doug Wamble
DZ/015 wrote:
> You've obviously never studied Coltrane. I studied breifly with David
> Leibman, perhaps the world's foremost Coltrane expert. Harmony IS the
> major element in Coltrane's playing...AS in Scofield's, NOT
> McLaughlin's.
Oooh...we're all sooo impressed...
> You probably believe in Jesus, too. That'd be your right, of
> course...but then you'd be completely wrong about that too.
You are being a total prick, man. No one's religious orientation
needs to be discussed, much less bashed on RMB, you loser.
Get a clue or go the fuck away.
Doug
Alex Bunardzic
act...@lava.net (DZ/015) wrote:
>You've obviously never studied Coltrane. I studied breifly with David
>Leibman, perhaps the world's foremost Coltrane expert.
You've obviously studied Coltrane briefly.
>You probably believe in Jesus, too. That'd be your right, of
>course...but then you'd be completely wrong about that too.
Oh, my God! What'll I do now? OK, teach me -- how about Buddha? Would
I be completelly wrong about him too? All right, all right, let me try
again... how about Mohammed? Close, but no cigar?
Sheesh... can anyone help? We need a legit religious leader to be
approved by scholastic people here on rec.music.bluenote!
Gary Milliken
>A good example of Sco's sense of humor is the tune, which I think is on
>Meant To Be and sounds very, very reminicent of "Tequila". It's called "SO
>Sue Me". I also wonder how many people get the "I can see your house from
>here" joke. It's the punch line of a joke that relates to the cover art.
It hadn't occurred to me before I heard that album, but Pat Metheny does
not indulge in musical humor at all! I deeply love his music, but it
wasn't until I heard him playing alongside Scofield that I realized how
serious his playing always is -- he actually cut a couple of "jokes" on
the album with Sco, like playing a line on adjacent strings in slightly
out-of-tune minor 2nds in the middle of one solo.
(I posted this anecdote some months ago...) The last time I saw Sco
live, early in the evening he threw a brief quote from, of all things,
Stravinsky's "Ebony Concerto". Being a clarinet player, I guessed that
I might be the only person in the room to recognize this little joke.
GM
DZ/015
In article <3218FE...@nwu.edu>
Doug Wamble <c-sch...@nwu.edu> writes:
> You are being a total prick, man. No one's religious orientation
> needs to be discussed, much less bashed on RMB, you loser.
Hey Dougy,
We all, you included, use analogy and metaphore to support our
positions. If you don't like it, too fucking bad!
DZ/015
Matthew C Weiner
DZ/015 (act...@lava.net) wrote:
: In article <3218FE...@nwu.edu>
: Doug Wamble <c-sch...@nwu.edu> writes:
: Hey Dougy,
: DZ/015
"You probably believe in Jesus, but you're wrong about that, too,"
isn't an analogy. It is an entirely uncalled-for personal attack
that could not conceivably shed light on the issue. The person
you were responding to disagreed with what you said, or rather
said that his personal impression of Coltrane was different than
yours, and you came out of the blue with this. An analogy
involves comparing two things that are alike in several respects.
You did not demonstrate any analogy here.
I'd also wonder whether Coltrane would have said spirituality or
harmony was more important to him. I know he said "I want to be
a force for good." I am not aware of him ever having said "I want
to be a force for greater harmonic sophistication." Of course,
you probably have a better idea of what it means to be Coltrane,
objectively, than he did, since you appear to have a line to God
about the rest of the fundamental truths of the universe.
Matt
Marc Sabatella
DZ/015 wrote:
> Harmony IS the
> major element in Coltrane's playing
What makes one element more important than another? It may be the element you
or David Liebman choose to focus on, and indeed there is evidence that for some
time at least (late 50's, early 60's) it was what Coltrane himself was most
concerned with. I would say probably was not as big a factor for Coltrane
himself in the early/mid 1950's or in the mid/late 1960's.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
D Royko
In article <01bb8ee5$cf749680$975f7dc7@Pbresnahan>, "Kevin Bresnahan"
<ke...@bresnahan.mv.com> writes:
>Oh well, another release I won't be picking up anytime soon. Keep
>coming out with those "great" digipaks, Jon. I know you read this
>page but do you really listen??
I think we've been through all this before. But FWIW, after hearing all
the anti-digipak arguments, I still like them just fine, and frankly, it
doesn't matter much to me what a disc comes in, especially between digipak
vs jewel boxes, both of which fit on my shelves. If the packaging of
something really bugs me (like those hard longboxes that don't fit well
anywhere, and that have the discs in little 'wells'), then I just buy some
jewelboxes, stick the discs in them, and stash the packaging elsewhere.
But while I can understand 'bluffing' that I won't buy something packaged
a certain way (in hopes that my bluff might change policy), I really can't
imagine not buying music that I want just because of the packaging. It
ain't a perfect world, but music is one of the few things that can give me
momentary illusions that it is, and when I've got the disc playing and I'm
in that little imaginary, illusionary bubble, I'm happy to be there, and
the packaging has no relevance at that moment. And those are the moments I
collect music for.
Dave Royko
roland kalus
>The problem with Scofield is that he has heard funk and rock and incorporates
>it into his style. Like it or not, it has to be marketed as "jazz" since
>there are no vocals on it.
W H A T ?????
Music with vocals not Jazz????
Funny idea, ask my girlfriend.. she is also a jazzsinger
ROLF
Roland
Giri Iyengar
Ashley,
You hit the nail bang on its little head. Scofield is an extremely witty
player with an remarkable grasp of the elasticity of time. I have actually
laughed out loud while listening to some of his stuff the first time. Not
too many people can do that. He may be harmonically advanced, but the facet
of his playing that always grabs me is his humor and unerring sense of
space.
Pity he doesn't play an archtop, eh? He would have made a fine jazz
guitarist.
..Giri
CLAY MOORE
No, no! He shoulda played the banjo. Now there's a REAL jazz instrument. Why, back in my
day.....
Boerge Soleng
>It hadn't occurred to me before I heard that album, but Pat Metheny does
>not indulge in musical humor at all! I deeply love his music, but it
>wasn't until I heard him playing alongside Scofield that I realized how
>serious his playing always is -- he actually cut a couple of "jokes" on
>the album with Sco, like playing a line on adjacent strings in slightly
>out-of-tune minor 2nds in the middle of one solo.
Haven't you heard the PMG album "First Circle"???? How many artists dare to
open an album with a piece ("Forward March") that can't be considered nothing
but a big joke???
Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
__________________________________________________________________
"Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
Tom Kelley
How about Sonny Sharrock as the "Coltrane of the guitar". Sharrock was
deeply moved by Coltrane's playing, and took up the guitar with the
intention of playing 'Coltrane' on that instrument. If you listen to "Ask
The Ages" (one of the greatest energy and guitar records imho) it will be
apparent that he IS Coltrane's heir on the guitar. (Of course it helps to
have Elvin Jones and Pharoah Sanders in the band!)
Unfortunately, Sharrock died in 1994.
--
Tom Kelley
datap...@earthlink.net
CLAY MOORE
I usually don't slam people, but since he is dead I'll make an exception. I've never
understood the hoopla about Sharrock. I first heard him 20 years ago and I thought he
sounded horrible. I've tried to give him a fair listen several times since but it always
reminds me of a music store on a Saturday afternoon- tons of really bad guitar playing
with a distortion pedal on. I'm not a purist- I like lots of rock and blues players as
well as jazz and fusion guys- but this guy was a poser, IMO.
Clay in Austin
Walter Davis
HEY!! C'mon now, can we please stay on topic without wandering into
idiotic personal attacks (at least I haven't seen any Hitler "analogies"
yet).
I believe the topics had become whether Coltrane's harmonics were a
major distinguishing element and whether Scofield was more harmonically
advanced that Metheny (or was it McLaughlin). Discuss.
Giri Iyengar
In article <321A50...@ix.netcom.com>, CLAY MOORE <cmo...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Giri Iyengar wrote:
> > Pity he doesn't play an archtop, eh? He would have made a fine jazz
> > guitarist.
> back in my day.....
Uh oh. How about a smaller can of worms here.
Who wants to rave and rant abour Bela Fleck? Come on, folks. I know you're
out there.
..Giri
P.S. Some of you folks should listen to U.Srinivas playing Carnatic (South
Indian classical) music on a mandolin. It would make you forget all about
instrument-genre relationships.
Gary Milliken
>Haven't you heard the PMG album "First Circle"???? How many artists dare to
>open an album with a piece ("Forward March") that can't be considered nothing
>but a big joke???
Oh yeah.... I had forgotten that one, probably not by accident. It's by
far my least favorite Metheny track, and I think that Lyle Mays may be more
responsible for it than Metheny. It was kinda fun to see them do it live
to open their concerts, but it got old fast.
What I was trying to address was inherent good humor in the music -- witty
and clever musical lines or concepts. "Forward March" strikes me more like
a Mel Brooks joke about farting.
GM
LAURIE POLLOCK
In article <4vbf1g$f...@mochi.lava.net>, InterNews 1...@ohia041.lava.net writes:
> In article <3218FE...@nwu.edu>
> Doug Wamble <c-sch...@nwu.edu> writes:
>
> > You are being a total prick, man. No one's religious orientation
> > needs to be discussed, much less bashed on RMB, you loser.
>
> Hey Dougy,
>
> We all, you included, use analogy and metaphore to support our
> positions. If you don't like it, too fucking bad!
>
> DZ/015
Please discontinue your g*^ d#$! f$%^&*@ personal attacks in public and voice
your @%^&#)(*& disagreements with each other in email.
Boerge Soleng
OK, I see.... But what about a lot of the stuff he did with Ornette on
"Song X"? I find a lot of humour on this one, though it's maybe not as
obvious as, let's say the typical Rollins kind of quotes from corny musicals
or something like that. Though the record itself could be considered dead
serious, there are definitely funny moments in there. Even on Rejoicing and
Q&A, there are funny moments.
I'll agree that Scofield is a player that uses humour as a more direct
tool in more of his music, but I'll not conclude that Metheny is a player
without humour.
TRAVIS
CLAY MOORE wrote:
>
> I usually don't slam people, but since he is dead I'll make an exception. I've never
> understood the hoopla about Sharrock. I first heard him 20 years ago and I thought he
> sounded horrible. I've tried to give him a fair listen several times since but it always
> reminds me of a music store on a Saturday afternoon- tons of really bad guitar playing
> with a distortion pedal on. I'm not a purist- I like lots of rock and blues players as
> well as jazz and fusion guys- but this guy was a poser, IMO.
>
> Clay in Austin
Clay, while I found your analogy to the Saturday music store very funny,
I never heard Sonny Sharrock "Stairway to Heaven". Otherwise I agree
with your sentiments.
Good picking,
Travis in DFW
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <borges.25...@fiskforsk.norut.no> bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no (Boerge Soleng) writes:
>
>Haven't you heard the PMG album "First Circle"???? How many artists dare to
>open an album with a piece ("Forward March") that can't be considered nothing
>but a big joke???
I have always assumed that cut was mostly Lyle Mays' work. His own
albums contain some pretty funny writing, much more than Pat's.
CLAY MOORE
Travis,
If he did make a recording of "Stairway" we could call his version "Page(s) of Sound",
rather than "Sheets of Sound". For a hearty laugh at his expense, go back and read his
"Secrets of Improvisation" article in Guitar Player mag from several years ago. If you
need the specific issue I'll be glad to look it up.
Clay in Austin
James Pritchett
Funny where the modern state of "jazz" guitar travels these days. Many
here consider Scofield some type of harmonic demon, next in line to
Paganini (I know, but you get the point) or something. I don't hear it
at all. His work with Miles, I really liked a lot, but his solo work
suffers from the same problems many of today's axemen seem to suffer from:
lack of focus and direction (Larry Carlton, John McLaughlin, Kevin
Eubanks etc). His work with Frisell (who seems to bring the best out in
other guitarists) is pretty good, but I just hated that Metheny
collaboration. Too much of the same style for me ( and they were not
really listening to each other to my ears). Perhaps the reason
I've always enjoyed Pat much more than most is because of his strong
melodic sense. Even in his "out" playing, his sense of romance is so
strong and tuneful (excepting Zero Tolerance, a waste of time).
As a guitarist, I appreciate some of Scofield's chops, but his original
or new material just sounds like another notesmith fooling around with
various forms to see what happens. And the funny thing, aside from
Frisell & Metheny, I can't think of any current guitarists I would pay to
see just for themselves. Eubanks can play with the best of them, but
which Kevin with show up. McLaughlin is the Alvin Lee of jazz: too many
notes, but damn, can he play when he slows down. How can someone
construct such monster solos on other people's albums like Larry Carlton
(Steely Dan, of course) and come up so empty on his own? That Birelli
Lagrene has all the chops, but has gone off to be an electric warrior too.
By the way, that digital reverb haze that so many of today's players use
must have some postive attributes...but I have yet to hear them.
Horrible tones all around!
Would love to hear other's fave "jazz" guitar players listed.
Thanks for listening...
--
/ l l l \
Doug Wamble
Matthew C Weiner wrote:
> Obviously there are different aspects to Coltrane's playing,
> Coltrane played different ways at different times, and who
> you think is 'Trane of the guitar will depend on what you
> find most important. Sharrock used sustain and distortion-
> purely electric as opposed to acoustic guitar sounds-to
> come up with a version of Coltrane's multiphonic playing.
> He may not have been as harmonically complex as Coltrane,
> but I think he deserves some credit as the Coltrane of
> the guitar for being the *first* one to try to attain
> Coltrane-like effects. He played his way in 1966, on
> Pharoah's "Tauhid"-before Hendrix or McLaughlin recorded
> their Coltrane-influenced guitar stuff.
>
> Matt
I don't think there's been a guitarist who even came close to Trane.
I love "Ask The Ages", but let's face it, Sonny didn't exhibit any clue
about harmony in his music. This is _NOT_ detrimental to it in the
least.
He might have been able to play changes, but he never showed this. I
think
he had a lot of energy and fire, and I like those tunes on that record.
But Coltrane was a master of melody, harmony, rhythm, and tone. Sonny
sounds closer to rock than Jazz music, although I still like him.
Peter Mulderry
In article <321A50...@ix.netcom.com>,
CLAY MOORE <cmo...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> No, no! He shoulda played the banjo. Now there's a REAL jazz instrument...
Which brings us to Frisell. What's the problem with him?
I like Frisell (and Scofield and McLaughlin and Metheny), but not to the
same degree, and I never judge a musician by whether their music is
"jazz" or not.)
Doug Wamble
You people are too uptight!!!
Here's what you do...
Go to your local hardware store and get 1/2 inch diameter dowel rods.
They cost about a quarter. You can mount them by jamming them into
the wall, gluing them to the floor, or suspending them rotisserie style.
Then go home and take all your CD's out of their jewel boxws, digipacks,
jackets(like my old copy of Prince's "Around the World in a Day", just
like a little bitty LP!), shoeboxes, and liquid-nitrogen enviro-packs.
Then discard all of the casings in a politically and environmentally
correct manner.
Proceed to place all of the actual discs on the dowel rods.
Problem solved!
Doug Wamble
James Pritchett wrote:
A whole pile of stuff I agree with, but I snipped to avoid controversy!
:-)
> Would love to hear other's fave "jazz" guitar players listed.
>
> Thanks for listening...
Hmmm...well...I like Russell Malone a lot. His first CD had some
acoustic
playing on it that was unbelievably soulful to my ears. Mark Whitfield
tends to overplay a lot, especially live, but I still respect him a
bunch.
He has a really fresh way of playing burnout on the guitar without using
effects. He has a consistent lilt to his lines that really keep things
moving forward, and I dig that a lot.
Both of these men are coming out of the same set of influences for the
most
part, but they sound a lot different. Russell's rhythmic concept sounds
a
lot like Charlie Rouse to me. Anyone else hear this?
Dennis Whelan
On Aug 20, 1996 20:32:20 in article <Digipak debates again?>,
'dro...@aol.com (D Royko)' wrote:
>I think we've been through all this before. But FWIW, after hearing all
>the anti-digipak arguments, I still like them just fine, and frankly, it
>doesn't matter much to me what a disc comes in, especially between digipak
>vs jewel boxes, both of which fit on my shelves. If the packaging of
>something really bugs me (like those hard longboxes that don't fit well
>anywhere, and that have the discs in little 'wells'), then I just buy some
>jewelboxes, stick the discs in them, and stash the packaging elsewhere.
BTW, has anyone found a source for mini poly bags? Y'know, like the ones
we vinyl junkies use on our LPs? I think that would be a good solution to
the problem since digipaks are virtually the same as a cardboard LP jacket.
I know they're out there cause I've seen them in some stores that carry
used CDs. Anyone???
Best,
Dennis Whelan
bum...@usa.pipeline.com
Matthew C Weiner
Tom Kelley (datap...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: How about Sonny Sharrock as the "Coltrane of the guitar".
: Sharrock was
: deeply moved by Coltrane's playing, and took up the
: guitar with the
: intention of playing 'Coltrane' on that instrument.
: If you listen to "Ask
: The Ages" (one of the greatest energy
: and guitar records imho) it will be
: apparent that he IS Coltrane's heir
: on the guitar. (Of course it helps to
: have Elvin Jones and Pharoah Sanders in the band!)
: Unfortunately, Sharrock died in 1994.
: --
: Tom Kelley
: datap...@earthlink.net
Obviously there are different aspects to Coltrane's playing,
Geoff Gray
Sorry guys - I have to defend the late Sonny Sharrock's playing...
Tom Kelley wrote:
>
> How about Sonny Sharrock as the "Coltrane of the guitar". Sharrock was
> deeply moved by Coltrane's playing, and took up the guitar with the
> intention of playing 'Coltrane' on that instrument. If you listen to "Ask
> The Ages" (one of the greatest energy and guitar records imho) it will be
> apparent that he IS Coltrane's heir on the guitar. (Of course it helps to
> have Elvin Jones and Pharoah Sanders in the band!)
>
> Unfortunately, Sharrock died in 1994.
In article <321B0C...@ix.netcom.com>,
on Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:17:17 -0500,
CLAY MOORE <CLAY> writes:
>I usually don't slam people, but since he is dead I'll make an exception. I've
>understood the hoopla about Sharrock. I first heard him 20 years ago and I
>thought he
>sounded horrible. I've tried to give him a fair listen several times since but
>reminds me of a music store on a Saturday afternoon- tons of really bad guitar
>with a distortion pedal on. I'm not a purist- I like lots of rock and blues
>players as
>well as jazz and fusion guys- but this guy was a poser, IMO.
Well, perhaps Sharrock wasn't a 'traditionalist' player a la Freddie
Green, or a melodist like Wes Montgomery, but he was a fine, high-energy
guitarist who brought spirit and intensity to a number of sessions. In
addition to Tom Kelley's recommendation of "Ask The Ages", there was
also his work as part of the jazz/punk/funk/free improvising group
Last Exit, with Peter Brotzmann, Bill Laswell and Ronald Shannon Jackson,
in addition to his solo and group recordings for Enemy Records.
While I can't speak about his early, late-60s/early 70s work, such as
"Monkie-Pockie-Boo" with his then-wife Linda Sharrock, the first Sharrock
I heard in the early 80s ("Memory Serves" by Material, on Celluloid/
Island Records) certainly reflects a far more creative and interesting
player than the strawman that Clay attacks, IMO. Even coarseness can be
another means of expression, when intelligently applied in context!
Regards, Geoff Gray, c/o IBMM Corporation * Standard disclaimers apply.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
I can't help but wonder where Doug stuck the dowel rod.
--
"Yes, isn't it pretty to think so." --Ernest Hemingway
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <4vkr81$4...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Pritchett) writes:
>Funny where the modern state of "jazz" guitar travels these days. Many
>here consider Scofield some type of harmonic demon, next in line to
>Paganini (I know, but you get the point) or something. I don't hear it
>at all. His work with Miles, I really liked a lot, but his solo work
>suffers from the same problems many of today's axemen seem to suffer from:
>lack of focus and direction (Larry Carlton, John McLaughlin, Kevin
>Eubanks etc). His work with Frisell (who seems to bring the best out in
>other guitarists) is pretty good, but I just hated that Metheny
>collaboration. Too much of the same style for me ( and they were not
>really listening to each other to my ears). Perhaps the reason
>I've always enjoyed Pat much more than most is because of his strong
>melodic sense. Even in his "out" playing, his sense of romance is so
>strong and tuneful (excepting Zero Tolerance, a waste of time).
>As a guitarist, I appreciate some of Scofield's chops, but his original
>or new material just sounds like another notesmith fooling around with
>various forms to see what happens.
I find him a very strong composer at his best, one of the few writers
whose tunes you can hum after hearing the album once. I don't understand
what you mean by "lack of focus and direction". Could you elaborate?
Peter Watkins
Sonny Greenwich should not be overlooked in this discussion. Some of
the stuff he did in the mid-late 80's was gorgeous - inspired,
spiritual, sax-like lines,etc. (Bird of Paradise, Live at Sweet Basil
are among 2 that come to mind)
Doug Wamble <c-sch...@nwu.edu> wrote:
>Matthew C Weiner wrote:
>> Obviously there are different aspects to Coltrane's playing,
>> Coltrane played different ways at different times, and who
>> you think is 'Trane of the guitar will depend on what you
>> find most important. Sharrock used sustain and distortion-
>> purely electric as opposed to acoustic guitar sounds-to
>> come up with a version of Coltrane's multiphonic playing.
>> He may not have been as harmonically complex as Coltrane,
>> but I think he deserves some credit as the Coltrane of
>> the guitar for being the *first* one to try to attain
>> Coltrane-like effects. He played his way in 1966, on
>> Pharoah's "Tauhid"-before Hendrix or McLaughlin recorded
>> their Coltrane-influenced guitar stuff.
>>
>> Matt
>I don't think there's been a guitarist who even came close to Trane.
Thorleif Hoff
I really like the Digipak packaging - gives the album more of a vinyl
flavour. Obviously they can't put up with much tossing around, but the
solution is very simple - buy some Case Logic CD managers, take the
CDs out of the Digipaks and store them in the Case Logic managers.
They're avilable in many different sizes, handling from 12 to 96 CDs
each. Then put the Digipaks on the shelf just for display. Best and
most convenient way to store all CDs, if you ask me.
Thorleif
BENJAMIN M B. WOOD
On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, TRAVIS wrote:
> CLAY MOORE wrote:
> >
> > I usually don't slam people, but since he is dead I'll make an exception. I've never
> > understood the hoopla about Sharrock. I first heard him 20 years ago and I thought he
> > sounded horrible. I've tried to give him a fair listen several times since but it always
> > reminds me of a music store on a Saturday afternoon- tons of really bad guitar playing
> > with a distortion pedal on. I'm not a purist- I like lots of rock and blues players as
> > well as jazz and fusion guys- but this guy was a poser, IMO.
> >
> > Clay in Austin
>
> Clay, while I found your analogy to the Saturday music store very funny,
> I never heard Sonny Sharrock "Stairway to Heaven". Otherwise I agree
> with your sentiments.
>
> Good picking,
> Travis in DFW
>
>
Clay and Travis,
you know, poeple always slam artists that challenge the mainstream thought
patterns. This has been proven over and over, however, I would like two
point out that many of our favorite jazz icons (Monk, Bird, Coltrane, and
Colman) have been repeatedly slamed for sounding like the "could not
play". Sonny Sharock was one of those players who's ideas challenged
people, and this made him unique. I understand if you do not like his
style, sure, but to say the man could not play?? come on, he made music
his life; and was succesful- so if nothing else respect his work ethic and
marketing skills!
Good Picking,
Septime Performer
Ben Wood
CLAY MOORE
> >
> Clay and Travis,
> you know, poeple always slam artists that challenge the mainstream thought
> patterns. This has been proven over and over, however, I would like two
> point out that many of our favorite jazz icons (Monk, Bird, Coltrane, and
> Colman) have been repeatedly slamed for sounding like the "could not
> play". Sonny Sharock was one of those players who's ideas challenged
> people, and this made him unique. I understand if you do not like his
> style, sure, but to say the man could not play?? come on, he made music
> his life; and was succesful- so if nothing else respect his work ethic and
> marketing skills!
>
> Good Picking,
> Septime Performer
> Ben Wood
Sorry Ben, but I stand on my convictions. When someone attepts to foist off the level of
musical bullshit that Sharrock did, it isn't marketing, it's conning. I would have given
him a break except for that holier-than-thou improvisation theory that I read in
magazines such as the aforementioned Guitar Player and in Down Beat. I can give any
angry 15 year old a guitar and they can sound like Sharrock in a matter of a couple of
weeks. Like I said, I tried, but I didn't hear anthing in his guitar playing that
suggested skill or musicality. If you like it, fine, I'll take Hendrix, David Torn,
Adrian Belew or Steve Vai any day of the week for unorthodox sounds and techniques,
because these guys can do the weird stuff AND make music.
Clay in Austin
TRAVIS
BENJAMIN M B. WOOD wrote:
>
> On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, TRAVIS wrote:
>
> > CLAY MOORE wrote:
> > >
> > > I usually don't slam people, but since he is dead I'll make an exception. I've never
> > > understood the hoopla about Sharrock. I first heard him 20 years ago and I thought he
> > > sounded horrible. I've tried to give him a fair listen several times since but it always
> > > reminds me of a music store on a Saturday afternoon- tons of really bad guitar playing
> > > with a distortion pedal on. I'm not a purist- I like lots of rock and blues players as
> > > well as jazz and fusion guys- but this guy was a poser, IMO.
> > >
> > > Clay in Austin
> >
> > Clay, while I found your analogy to the Saturday music store very funny,
> > I never heard Sonny Sharrock "Stairway to Heaven". Otherwise I agree
> > with your sentiments.
> >
> > Good picking,
> > Travis in DFW
> >
> >
> you know, poeple always slam artists that challenge the mainstream thought
> patterns. This has been proven over and over, however, I would like two
> point out that many of our favorite jazz icons (Monk, Bird, Coltrane, and
> Colman) have been repeatedly slamed for sounding like the "could not
> play". Sonny Sharock was one of those players who's ideas challenged
> people, and this made him unique. I understand if you do not like his
> style, sure, but to say the man could not play?? come on, he made music
> his life; and was succesful- so if nothing else respect his work ethic and
> marketing skills!
>
> Good Picking,
> Septime Performer
> Ben Wood
Ben,
I can only speak for myself, but the discussion wasn't S. Sharrock's
work ethic or marketing skills, it was his playing and his art. I have
not heard his entire body of work, but so far I've found nothing that
impresses me. At best I'm curious as to what I'm missing that inspires
a small following to sing his praises. Could this be just the latest
revival of the emperor's new clothes?
Your point about the masses missing the latest artistic evolution has
some truth. I don't think however that because something is different
it is an evolution, it could be simply undeveloped, unformed, or worse.
S. Sharrock certainly expressed himself differently.
The real issue between us, I suspect, is that Clay's analogy and my
response smacked of ridicule. Certainly my response was tainted, but
because I heard the hyperbole and, after suffering the substance, walked
away with serious doubts about Sharrock's credentials I felt compelled
to be a little snide. Sorry, but not very.
By the way, what's a Septime Performer?
Good picking (as long as its not too far out :-) ),
Travis in DFW
Walter Davis
In article <4vn53b$i...@o.online.no>,
thor...@online.no (Thorleif Hoff) wrote:
>I really like the Digipak packaging - gives the album more of a vinyl
>flavour.
Y'know, I've never understood this. They're not vinyl. They give more
of a vinyl feel??? by being 1/4 the size? and carboard's just thrilling
to the touch? Still, digipacks can't compare to those cheesy, true
lp-feel, covers that you find on some stuff. Maybe it's just me, but
the only thing I ever found attractive about lp packaging was its size -
you knew you were holding something of substance and the cover art was
more impressive. But the digipack is still just a teeny piece of
cardboard with teeny cover art (though slightly bigger than a cd
booklet). I get about as much "lp-feel" out of a digipack as I do
"Ferrari feel" out of a Hot Wheels.
I suppose that when somebody puts out Shakespeare on cd rom, we'll all
prefer the leather-bound, book-style case because it will look more like
a real book.
It seems to me that if everyone who's pining for that vinyl feel had
bought the first Impulse reissues on vinyl, they would have kept
reissuing the stuff on vinyl.
BENJAMIN M B. WOOD
Sptime is a parry in fencing, and is my nickname in the local fencing
club, it is latin (i think) for seven, and parries the lower right side,
with the hand in supination. I think that you are very stong in your
convictions, and I have also not heard all of sharrocks work, however,
what I have heard interested me because he has a very different sound, and
because it seems to me he only plays from his heart (of course, one of my
professors says the same about ornette colman, and then says, "what a sick
and twisted man he must be!"
anyways, this has been an interesting debate, and some great pionts were
made. Perhaps Sharrock is not the "coltrane" of the guitar, however there
is no reason to discount his influnce or art as junk
Septime Performer
Ben Wood
JFR
Interesting idea, I will have to relisten to the Sharrock stuff I have.
I have been thinking about the whole concept of comparing guitar
players to horn players. Maybe "Coltrane of the Guitar" is an
impossible concept. It seems that the guitar is a very difficult
instrument to play "horn-like" lines on. I think some of it has to do
with the fact that horn players can "sing" through their instrument and
sort-of vocalize what they hear in their heads much easier. The guitar
is more "mechanical", even if you try to sing what you hear in your
head at the same time. I still hear horn players doing some real cool
stuff that I don't hear any guitar players really doing. Even my
"heroes". Oh well, I still love the guitar. Its like any
relationship.
In
<dataplanet-20...@pool027.max5.new-york.ny.dynip.alter.net>
datap...@earthlink.net (Tom Kelley) writes:
>
>How about Sonny Sharrock as the "Coltrane of the guitar". Sharrock
was
>deeply moved by Coltrane's playing, and took up the guitar with the
>intention of playing 'Coltrane' on that instrument. If you listen to
"Ask
>The Ages" (one of the greatest energy and guitar records imho) it will
be
>apparent that he IS Coltrane's heir on the guitar. (Of course it
helps to
>have Elvin Jones and Pharoah Sanders in the band!)
>
>Unfortunately, Sharrock died in 1994.
>
>--
>Tom Kelley
>datap...@earthlink.net
Matthew C Weiner
James Pritchett (pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu) wrote:
[complaints about a lot of people that seemed to mostly
be about great chops, not enough applied musical intelligence]
: Would love to hear other's fave "jazz" guitar players listed.
: Thanks for listening...
Well, Derek Bailey certainly doesn't have the problems you had
with all those other people-I've never heard anyone say he plays
too many notes. How you feel about his stuff will depend on how
you feel about "plink"-style free improv, for the most part, but
he's definitely a guitarist who's coming from a different direction.
And James Blood Ulmer, of course. Tremendous free guitarist.
Matt
Matthew C Weiner
Doug Wamble (c-sch...@nwu.edu) wrote:
[snip my comment on Sonny Sharrock]
: I don't think there's been a guitarist who even came close to Trane.
: I love "Ask The Ages", but let's face it, Sonny didn't exhibit any clue
: about harmony in his music. This is _NOT_ detrimental to it in the
: least.
: He might have been able to play changes, but he never showed this. I
: think
: he had a lot of energy and fire, and I like those tunes on that record.
: But Coltrane was a master of melody, harmony, rhythm, and tone. Sonny
: sounds closer to rock than Jazz music, although I still like him.
Which is the reason the "Coltrane of the Guitar" discussion is kind
of pointless. Everyone's an individual, blah blah, and the only way
to capture every element of Coltrane's approach on the guitar
would be to play sax while physically standing on a guitar-and only
Coltrane could have done it. I wouldn't be able to tell, really,
but it always has sounded to me like Sharrock wanted to play melodic
lines--with a Coltrane-influenced multiphonic approach, though of
course he had to use different means to get anything like the same
effect--more than explore harmony, so he certainly was missing at
least one aspect of Coltrane's work, at a certain period. (I'd also
say most of his stuff I've heard sounds more like jazz than rock
to *me*, but big deal-we've got different definitions.)
So I don't know why I stuck my oar into this discussion. The only
thing left to say is, from what I hear, the Bird of the guitar
was Charlie Christian. :-)
Matt
Dr. Don Koldon
In article <4vkr81$4...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
(James Pritchett) wrote:
>
> Would love to hear other's fave "jazz" guitar players listed.
Unless I've been asleep at the wheel, I haven't seen Tony Purrone
mentioned. He played on lots of Heath Bros. recordings in the late 70's
through mid-80's (for both Columbia & Antilles) .. a tasteful
straight-ahead player.
His best (relatively) recent recordings are "Mr. Taste" by Ed Thigpen (on
the Justin Time label, recorded in '91), where he is featured in a trio
format, and two by Jimmy Heath on SteepleChase: "You've Changed" (rec in
'91) and "You Or Me" (rec. in 95). Both are quartet dates, and for those
who are interested, are among Jimmy Heath's finest work IMHO.
Purrone did a record under his own name for (?) B&W (I think it was an
audiophile label off-shoot of the British loudspeaker company). I didn't
like it ... very fusion-ish, but that's not why I didn't like it. It just
didn't seem anywhere near as cohesive as his straight jazz efforts.
Anybody else heard of him and/or seen him lately?
--
DK
James Pritchett
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
[on John Scofield]
: I find him a very strong composer at his best, one of the few writers
: whose tunes you can hum after hearing the album once. I don't understand
: what you mean by "lack of focus and direction". Could you elaborate?
I don't find his solo work to be tuneful at all. Maybe I'm hearing the
wrong stuff. I've listened to most of his Grammavision stuff as well as
some of his earlier work on Inner City (can't recall exact titles). He
seems so disconnected from the musical mise en scene projected in his
compositions. Compare his solo material to his work either with Miles
(Decoy, You're Under Arrest and half of Star People) or Joe Henderson.
He seemed locked into their groove, while on his own material, he seems
oblivious (save for his many collaborations with Frisell, which seem to
bring out the best in him).
Recommend some stuff you like of his and I'll give it a whirl. Perhaps
I've missed something...
Thanks!
James Pritchett
Doug Wamble (c-sch...@nwu.edu) wrote:
: James Pritchett wrote:
: A whole pile of stuff I agree with, but I snipped to avoid controversy!
: :-)
: > Would love to hear other's fave "jazz" guitar players listed.
: >
: > Thanks for listening...
: Hmmm...well...I like Russell Malone a lot. His first CD had some
: acoustic
: playing on it that was unbelievably soulful to my ears.
I heard him on that Branford Marsalis Tour (Heard You Twice...) and he
was incredible! I bought his (2nd?) cd, with the floating guitar, and
didn't like it very much.
Mark Whitfield
: tends to overplay a lot, especially live, but I still respect him a
: bunch.
: He has a really fresh way of playing burnout on the guitar without using
: effects. He has a consistent lilt to his lines that really keep things
: moving forward, and I dig that a lot.
My feeling exactly! We have a school of note wankers that can really
play their instruments, but need to learn when to ease up. A torrent of
notes is fine periodically, but not all the time. Both Whitfield and Malone
are very good players. Now, if we can keep the pop police away ("C'mon
kid, we'll make you another Benson...!), though Whitfield has already
visited with them. It always galls me to hear Kevin
Eubanks rock out on the Tonight Show when I know what he can really do
(check out his work on James William's fine recording Progress Report if
you haven't heard the jazzy side of Kevin).
: Both of these men are coming out of the same set of influences for the
: most
: part, but they sound a lot different. Russell's rhythmic concept sounds
: a
: lot like Charlie Rouse to me. Anyone else hear this?
Hmmm, I'll have to dig out some Rouse for a comparison. Do you mean
Rouse with Monk, with Sphere or solo? Thanks for the response!
Doug Wamble
Dr. Don Koldon wrote:
> Unless I've been asleep at the wheel, I haven't seen Tony Purrone
> mentioned. He played on lots of Heath Bros. recordings in the late 70's
> through mid-80's (for both Columbia & Antilles) .. a tasteful
> straight-ahead player.
He;s about the last guy I would call tasteful. He plays about a billion
notes per bar, and rarely leaves any space whatsoever. Not my cup of
espresso...
Michael Fitzgerald
On Sat, 24 Aug 1996 14:57:09 GMT, thor...@online.no (Thorleif Hoff)
wrote:
>I really like the Digipak packaging - gives the album more of a vinyl
>flavour. Obviously they can't put up with much tossing around, but the
>solution is very simple - buy some Case Logic CD managers, take the
>CDs out of the Digipaks and store them in the Case Logic managers.
>They're avilable in many different sizes, handling from 12 to 96 CDs
>each. Then put the Digipaks on the shelf just for display. Best and
>most convenient way to store all CDs, if you ask me.
Yeah, most convenient to have the cd in one place and everthing else
someplace else....
Look, Verve reissues have the best of both worlds: jewel boxes AND the
old lp issue stuff - most times they give you the old liner notes AND
the new ones, they give you additional photos, plenty of alternate
takes, sometimes even two albums on one cd. If only every reissue
series were run as well....
BTW, I still haven't bought an Impulse digipack release, true to my
word. And I've spent hundreds of dollars on albums in the past month
or so. Just not to Impulse. Had they been available in jewel boxes, I
would probably own nearly all of them by now.
I wonder if there are people out there who would take the same stand
FOR digipacks - "I won't buy an Impulse reissue UNLESS it's in a
digipack." Of course, to me, it seems pretty stupid.
Mike
27B/6
In article <4vsmp1$b...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>
pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Pritchett) writes:
>
> I don't find his solo work to be tuneful at all. Maybe I'm hearing the
> wrong stuff. I've listened to most of his Grammavision stuff as well as
> some of his earlier work on Inner City (can't recall exact titles). He
> seems so disconnected from the musical mise en scene projected in his
> compositions. Compare his solo material to his work either with Miles
> (Decoy, You're Under Arrest and half of Star People) or Joe Henderson.
> He seemed locked into their groove, while on his own material, he seems
> oblivious (save for his many collaborations with Frisell, which seem to
> bring out the best in him).
>
> Recommend some stuff you like of his and I'll give it a whirl. Perhaps
> I've missed something...
Check out his blue note stuff: "Hand Jive", "Time On My Hands", "Meant
To Be", "GroovElation", etc.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <4vsmp1$b...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Pritchett) writes:
>
>I don't find his solo work to be tuneful at all. Maybe I'm hearing the
>wrong stuff. I've listened to most of his Grammavision stuff as well as
>some of his earlier work on Inner City (can't recall exact titles).
Okay, I see the problem. He has improved immensely since the Inner City
days. The Gramavision stuff is electric, very rock-influenced, so maybe
you're not into that style. And he improved continuously at that too.
He
>seems so disconnected from the musical mise en scene projected in his
>compositions. Compare his solo material to his work either with Miles
>(Decoy, You're Under Arrest and half of Star People) or Joe Henderson.
>He seemed locked into their groove, while on his own material, he seems
>oblivious (save for his many collaborations with Frisell, which seem to
>bring out the best in him).
>
>Recommend some stuff you like of his and I'll give it a whirl. Perhaps
>I've missed something...
I think you should run out immediately and buy "Time On My Hands", Blue
Note, with Jack DeJohnette, Charlie Haden, and Joe Lovano. This is all
a modern take on mainstream jazz (except for the last cut, a "CD bonus"
which should have been left off). It's easily comparable to the Joe
Henderson album both in quality and style. I actually prefer this one
to Joe's album. And the band--of course--is incredible.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
I'm with Doug on this one. Lots of stock licks, speed moves, etc.
He is capable of playing some nice chordal stuff, but he seems
more intent on impressing everybody.
Boerge Soleng
>Mark Whitfield
>: tends to overplay a lot, especially live, but I still respect him a
>: bunch.
>: He has a really fresh way of playing burnout on the guitar without using
>: effects. He has a consistent lilt to his lines that really keep things
>: moving forward, and I dig that a lot.
In my opinion Whitfield must be the most overrated guitarplayer on the planet.
I've got his "7.th ave stroll" and I heard him live at the Kongsberg jazz
festival in Norway this summer, and I'm no way impressed.
The guy obviously has the chops, but after one tune on the live set, he
started to repeat himself with the same boring and not very intricate licks.
He also tends to take every tune in the same direction improvisationally,
and makes extended use of flashy "burnoutes" in close to every single tune
he's performing. I was expecting something more, and was really disapointed
about him.
I think Whitfield is another proof of what extended PR, can do for an artist.
There are a lot of players around delivering a lot more interesting goods than
Whitfield, who don't have the support of a big label, but deserves peoples
attention a lot more.
Joshua Redman is another player that has gotten star reputation in a very
short time because of extended marketing, but at least he's able to blow
close to everyone off stage these days.
Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
__________________________________________________________________
"Nice touch!" (Miles Davis about Herbie Hancock)
Boerge Soleng
>I have been thinking about the whole concept of comparing guitar
>players to horn players. Maybe "Coltrane of the Guitar" is an
>impossible concept. It seems that the guitar is a very difficult
>instrument to play "horn-like" lines on. I think some of it has to do
>with the fact that horn players can "sing" through their instrument and
>sort-of vocalize what they hear in their heads much easier. The guitar
>is more "mechanical", even if you try to sing what you hear in your
>head at the same time. I still hear horn players doing some real cool
>stuff that I don't hear any guitar players really doing. Even my
>"heroes". Oh well, I still love the guitar. Its like any
>relationship.
I don't know if I would say that the guitar is a difficult instrument to play
hornlike lines on, but as a guitar player I very much agree that it's seems
more difficult to form interesting lines on the guitar because of the more
"mechanical" approach. It's very easy to let the fingers do the work, and not
let the lines pass through the brain first.
But remember that the leading players creating new stuff has almost always
been saxophonists or piano players. I don't know any example that
guitarplayers have created the oppsoite influence on players of those
instruments.
Thorleif Hoff
>But remember that the leading players creating new stuff has almost always
>been saxophonists or piano players. I don't know any example that
>guitarplayers have created the oppsoite influence on players of those
>instruments.
>Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
Miles Davis said that he was influenced by the guitar in the late
'60s. You'll see in his autobiography that he said he was "moving into
a guitar-like sound" around the time of "Filles de Kilimanjaro". The
players that inspired him were Jimi Hendrix and probably James Brown's
guitarist, James Nolan (sp?). I think it's true, though, that no
guitarist has created a unique style that has influenced and changed
the concepts of horn players in general.
Thorleif S. Hoff
Mark S Fraser
>
> Check out his blue note stuff: "Hand Jive", "Time On My Hands", "Meant
> To Be", "GroovElation", etc.
incidentally, when asked in a workshop which albums were his own personal
favorites he said he didn't have any but that "Time On My Hands" and "Meant
to Be" are the albums most frequently cited as his best.
--
"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man"
Jebediah Springfield
James Pritchett
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
: In article <4vsmp1$b...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> pja...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (James Pritchett) writes:
: >
: >I don't find his solo work to be tuneful at all. Maybe I'm hearing the
: >wrong stuff. I've listened to most of his Grammavision stuff as well as
: >some of his earlier work on Inner City (can't recall exact titles).
: Okay, I see the problem. He has improved immensely since the Inner City
: days. The Gramavision stuff is electric, very rock-influenced, so maybe
: you're not into that style. And he improved continuously at that too.
: I think you should run out immediately and buy "Time On My Hands", Blue
: Note, with Jack DeJohnette, Charlie Haden, and Joe Lovano. This is all
: a modern take on mainstream jazz (except for the last cut, a "CD bonus"
: which should have been left off). It's easily comparable to the Joe
: Henderson album both in quality and style. I actually prefer this one
: to Joe's album. And the band--of course--is incredible.
Time on My Hands it is! Thanks for the tip and I'll report back after a
listen.
Matthew C Weiner
Thorleif Hoff (thor...@online.no) wrote:
: >But remember that the leading players creating new stuff has almost always
: >been saxophonists or piano players. I don't know any example that
: >guitarplayers have created the oppsoite influence on players of those
: >instruments.
: >Boerge Soleng, bor...@fiskforsk.norut.no
[snip]
: I think it's true, though, that no
: guitarist has created a unique style that has influenced and changed
: the concepts of horn players in general.
: Thorleif S. Hoff
Isn't Charlie Christian generally credited as one of the founders
of bebop?
Matt
Doug Wamble
Matthew C Weiner wrote:
> Isn't Charlie Christian generally credited as one of the founders
> of bebop?
Well, no. He didn't really play bebop. He was influential to Bird,
Diz, and Miles, but he was more of the transitional player sort of
like Lester Young.
Doug
Giri Iyengar
I highly recommend Sharrock's album with Nicky Skopelitis. I can't remember
what it's called. I can see why a lot of "jazz listeners" wouldn't like him.
He's very hard-edged and raucous. I remember reading an interview with some
guitar player who was talking about the first time he heard Sharrock. He said
he couldn't tell if the guy was incredibly good or incredibly bad.
..Giri
Giri Iyengar
James,
Try "Time On My Hands," "What We Do," "Meant To Be" and "Grace Under Pressure,"
more or less in that order. Perhaps the two "Bass Desires" albums by Marc
Johnson? I love his last two albums a lot as well, but they're not in the
same vein as the others.
On the other hand, perhaps you just don't like his playing? Possible.
I, personally, think he's one of the few people capable of improvising in a
truly melodic fashion, i.e. extending the *tune*, not "jamming over changes."
The heads he writes are invariably interesting, intelligent and yet "hummable."
Frisell is another guitar player who fits the above description. I would
hesitate to include many "greats" in that group, regardless of how much I
enjoy listening to them. These two seem to be the only ones around today who
are carrying on the Jim Hall tradition, if I may be allowed to assume the
existence of such a tradition.
Seeing Scofield live (recently, in a very small club) was a great experience.
Later..
..Giri
JohnRStark
I don't have the time to read all 64 messages in this thread as of this
date, but having read through a dozen of them, none of Scofield's
defenders have yet mentioned "So Near, So Far," the Joe Henderson release
with Scofield. That session gives me goosebumps. People will be playing it
100 years from now, if western civilization is still standing.
Marc Sabatella
For another perspective (I also repeat the recommendation for "Time On My
Hands", a truly great album), check out the live "At Montmarte" recording he
did sitting in with Don Pullen and George Adams and their quartet. I have no
idea how much rehearsal went into that performance, but he fits like a glove.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Steve Cox
Matthew C Weiner wrote:
>
>
> Obviously there are different aspects to Coltrane's playing,
> Coltrane played different ways at different times, and who
> you think is 'Trane of the guitar will depend on what you
> find most important. Sharrock used sustain and distortion-
> purely electric as opposed to acoustic guitar sounds-to
> come up with a version of Coltrane's multiphonic playing.
> He may not have been as harmonically complex as Coltrane,
> but I think he deserves some credit as the Coltrane of
> the guitar for being the *first* one to try to attain
> Coltrane-like effects. He played his way in 1966, on
> Pharoah's "Tauhid"-before Hendrix or McLaughlin recorded
> their Coltrane-influenced guitar stuff.
>
> Matt
Right on about "Tauhid"! I also believe that some of the most arresting music of
the 1980s was by Sharrock's band, "Last Exit", with Peter Brotzmann on reeds, Bill
Laswell on electric bass, and Ronald Shannon Jackson on drums. I find this music
much more adventurous and hard driving than either "Ask the Ages" or his other
group and solo efforts during the 80s and 90s. But I believe liking this stuff
requires some appreciation of the avant garde thing, particularly horn players
like Sanders, Brotzmann, and late period Coltrane. Brotzmann was at least half of
what made the group so compelling, but I don't believe that any other professional
guitarist has ever sounded quite like Sharrock in Last Exit, let alone a 15 year
old novice.
Steve Cox
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>: I think it's true, though, that no
>: guitarist has created a unique style that has influenced and changed
>: the concepts of horn players in general.
>
>: Thorleif S. Hoff
>
>Isn't Charlie Christian generally credited as one of the founders
>of bebop?
He sure is. I think Thor's observation isn't terribly trenchant, however.
Horn players are technically limited from imitating many guitaristic
innovations. The things that guitars do better than horns are impossible
for horns, while the things that horns do better than guitars are still
somewhat obtainable for guitarists.
Rick Stone
> My vote would be Pat Martino especially comparing his Consciousness
> recording with Black Pearls and Soultrane.
> I'd have to agree. At one point I was transcribing a bunch of early and
middle period Trane, and then started working on Pat Martino. It became
readily apparent that they were speaking not only the same harmonic
language, but even using many of the same (or very similar) phrases.
--
Rick Stone
Email: jaz...@inch.com
Web Site: http://www.inch.com/~jazzand
Rick Stone
> >The problem with Scofield is that he has heard funk and rock and incorporates
> >it into his style. Like it or not, it has to be marketed as "jazz" since
> >there are no vocals on it.
> W H A T ?????
> Music with vocals not Jazz????
> Funny idea, ask my girlfriend.. she is also a jazzsinger
Yeah it does seem to be a weird idea (just consider Sarah, Ella, Nat
Cole .... ). But when I asked one of my Jazz History students to write
a paper explaining to me my Kenny G was marketed as a jazz musician,
that was exactly the answer she got FROM THE PUBLICITY DEPARTMENT AT HIS
RECORD LABEL!!
Ignorance begets ignorance it seems.
CLAY MOORE
No professional guitarist *wants* to sound like Sharrock.
Clay in Austin
Jeff Beer
In article <4vvkrr$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Yes, that is a good one. Scofield has the right attack in playing
with Joe.
Jeff