Steely Dan borrowing from Horace Silver?
Richard Sperling
Steely Dan sounds exactly like the beginning of "Song For My Father"
by Horace Silver. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those
people who've heard both recordings.
Richard
GJuke
Becker and Fagin have both owned-up at one time or another to the
appropriation of this H.S. lick, "in tribute".
GJ
Joshua Parkhurst
well. Someone told me that Steely Dan just copied it, though I don't
know where he got this information from. Of course, it wouldn't be
the first time something like that happened.
Johnanning
record?
I thought Keith Jarrett sued them and won. Frankly, I don't see this as a
rip-off, any more than Dexter Gorden quoting song after song in his solos.
In other words, Fagen and Becker haven't kept anyone from buying the
corresponding jazz records, and did not need to use other people's stuff
just to get over. If anything, I think the Dan boys expanded the jazz
audience, while helping us jazz guys appreciate hipster pop more.
Elvin Mercx
John Sullivan
I think they settled out of court. The only time I saw Becker & Fagen
interviewed about it, they said they couldn't talk about it, but they agreed
the similarity was uncanny...
I'm a BIG Steely Dan fan, but it's a pretty specific lift. And to me it's a
little different from quoting in a solo, where the whole point is that it's a
quote, and thus attributed in spirit. In this case, Jarrett's material was
being misrepresented as Becker & Fagen's. (I still wonder what they were
thinking. They never seemed short on their own material to me.)
John Sullivan
jsul...@fhcrc.org
Thomas F Brown
>Didn't this also happen with "gaucho" the title tune from a Steely Dan
>record?
>I thought Keith Jarrett sued them and won.
Which Keith Jarrett tune?
Thomas F Brown
>It seems to me that the beginning of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" by
>Steely Dan sounds exactly like the beginning of "Song For My Father"
>by Horace Silver. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those
>people who've heard both recordings.
It's the same lick, and the Dan no doubt ripped it from Horace,
but it's such a rudimentary idea it hardly constitutes theft.
Bossa nova bass players feed their babies with that lick.
David Linn
>
>Didn't this also happen with "gaucho" the title tune from a Steely Dan
>record?
>I thought Keith Jarrett sued them and won.
Yes indeed. That is what happened. The tune in question was one of
Jarrett's called, 'As Long as Your Living Yours'. I believe , but am not
sure, its on the LP ' Belonging'. The head is very similar, but the B
section is different.
Dave
Richard Sperling
>In article <4gnsi6$c...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> sperl...@osu.edu (Richard Sperling) writes:
>>From: sperl...@osu.edu (Richard Sperling)
>>Subject: Steely Dan borrowing from Horace Silver?
>>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:30:04 GMT
>>It seems to me that the beginning of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" by
>>Steely Dan sounds exactly like the beginning of "Song For My Father"
>>by Horace Silver. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those
>>people who've heard both recordings.
>>Richard
>The intros to both tunes are a very standard and common rhythm intro used
>hundreds of times daily wherever straight 8th tunes are played. Nobody stole
>anything from anybody.
Where in my message does it say that Steely Dan "stole" the riff from
Horace? All I pointed out was that the intros to the 2 songs sounded
exactly alike.
In general it should go without saying that if you appropriate
another's work, then you should give proper credit.
Rich
Paul Baker
>From: sperl...@osu.edu (Richard Sperling)
>Subject: Steely Dan borrowing from Horace Silver?
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 20:30:04 GMT
>It seems to me that the beginning of "Rikki Don't Lose That Number" by
>Steely Dan sounds exactly like the beginning of "Song For My Father"
>by Horace Silver. I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of those
>people who've heard both recordings.
>Richard
The intros to both tunes are a very standard and common rhythm intro used
hundreds of times daily wherever straight 8th tunes are played. Nobody stole
anything from anybody. If anything, I'm disappointed that Becker/Fagen didn't
come up with anything more original for an intro.
Paul
Conrad V Frelichowski
>Same as how they got Snooky Young and Jerome Richardson to play on
>their FIRST album. And all the other great jazz players they've used
>(Wayne Shorter, Pete Christlieb, etc.).
>Mike
>fitz...@eclipse.net
Can anyone give a rundown of what jazz notables played with Steely Dan
and on which albums, especially Wayne Shorter?
David Linn
as your Living Yours' serving (found by the court) as a basis for
'Gaucho'
Dave
Jack Woker
Watkins ) writes:
>
>In <313a84f4....@news.eclipse.net> fitz...@eclipse.net (Michael
>Fitzgerald) writes:
>>
>>On Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:10:00 -0700, B Russell
<brus...@ag.arizona.edu>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, Richard Sperling wrote:
>>>I just recently got Song for My Father on CD. After listening to
>'Rikki,'
>>>for years, I was surprised to hear that familiar phrase. Sounds too
>>>simular to be a fluke. While they are/were quite creative, it could
>be
>>>that Becker and Fagan lifted that intro. I would like to think that
>they
>>>are above such blatent plagiarism, so I'll assume they did it
>unconsciously.
>>
>>This has got to be the silliest thread I've seen in a LONG time.....
>>I can't believe that people are debating this.
>>
>>OF COURSE THEY KNEW IT WAS THE HORACE INTRO!!!!!
>>
>>These are the guys who did a tune called "Parker's Band" on the SAME
>>ALBUM!!!! They know jazz. And they want to drop hints.
>>
>>It was just their way of paying tribute to Horace.
>>
>>Same as when they recorded the tune "Gaucho," they did it in the
style
>>of "Long As You Know You're Living Yours" by Keith Jarrett and Jan
>>Garbarek.
>>
>>Same as the line "Thelonious, my old friend..." in one of their
tunes.
>>
>>Same as how they hired Woods to play on "Doctor Wu."
>>
>>Same as how they got Snooky Young and Jerome Richardson to play on
>>their FIRST album. And all the other great jazz players they've used
>>(Wayne Shorter, Pete Christlieb, etc.).
>>
>>Mike
>>fitz...@eclipse.net
>
My first reaction to the opening phrase of PRETZEL LOGIC (which was
played to me by a fellow jazz fan back in 1973 or whenever the album
was released) was "That's Horace!"). It became obvious that this was
intentional. Song For My Father was a big jazz hit in the 1960's. To
assert that Becker/Fagan were unaware of what they were doing is to be
ignorant of their consistent jazz references throughout their career.
By the way, is anyone familiar with the excellent LP they produced on
Warner Brothers by Warne Marsh and Pete Christlieb (Apogee)? Word at
the time was that the release of this record was part of their signing
with WB. Of course, they disbanded before making any records for WB,
but Apogee did escape, and is still quite easy to find in used record
stores. My guess is that WB released the album to appease B&F and
dumped it as a cutout not long after. Anyway, it included the beautiful
Rapunzel, based on the chord changes (in the Marsh tradition) of Burt
Bacharach's In the Land of Make Believe.
Jack Woker
Jack Woker
writes:
>ste...@ix.netcom.com(Jack Woker) wrote:
>
>>My first reaction to the opening phrase of PRETZEL LOGIC (which was
>>played to me by a fellow jazz fan back in 1973 or whenever the album
>>was released) was "That's Horace!"). It became obvious that this was
>>intentional. Song For My Father was a big jazz hit in the 1960's. To
>>assert that Becker/Fagan were unaware of what they were doing is to
be
>>ignorant of their consistent jazz references throughout their career.
>>By the way, is anyone familiar with the excellent LP they produced on
>>Warner Brothers by Warne Marsh and Pete Christlieb (Apogee)? Word at
>>the time was that the release of this record was part of their
signing
>>with WB. Of course, they disbanded before making any records for WB,
>>but Apogee did escape, and is still quite easy to find in used record
>>stores. My guess is that WB released the album to appease B&F and
>>dumped it as a cutout not long after. Anyway, it included the
beautiful
>>Rapunzel, based on the chord changes (in the Marsh tradition) of Burt
>>Bacharach's In the Land of Make Believe.
>
>Murray/Branford Marsalis take on Dave Burrell's "Crucificado" [Fast
>Life - Columbia/DIW] always reminds me of the aforementioned
>"Rapunzel", and I've been meaning since I heard it to go back and see
>what sort of trick (or treat) my mind is playing. The glossy
>Becker/Fagan production on "Apogee" was not what I was used to hearing
>on Warne's records, and it took me a little while to really hear the
>album (I solved this as I often did with new Warne Marsh albums at
>that time - taped only Warne's solos and listened to that for a couple
>of weeks - given a familiar context, I soon realized what a delightful
>album this was). Now, of course, it stands out as a unique item in the
>Marsh catalogue because of that.
>The intervening release of Christlieb's "Conversations with Warne" (on
>Criss Cross) clarifies the genesis of the album. Christlieb was a
>guest of bassist/producer Jim Hughart at a session for "Warne Out" (on
>Interplay; Nick Ceroli rounded out the trio on drums); having crossed
>paths with Warne earlier in Clare Fischer's big band, he asked after
>the session whether they would record a quartet date with him. Becker
>and Fagan heard the tape (presumably while Christlieb was doing
>session work with them), and set up the "Apogee" date - the same group
>plus Lou Levy on piano. [Criss Cross finally issued the quartet
>session in 1991.]
>Questions:
> - Christlieb recalls doing the quartet record about a month after
>the trio session, which was recorded in May and June of 1977. The
>quartet album is dated September 15, 1978. "Apogee" carries no
>recording date, but is coprighted 1978. Can someone sort out the
>dates? (It seems most likely that the "Conversations" record is
>mis-dated; the Interplay is copyright 1977, and while Chrislieb's
>memory could be faulty after more than a decade, a year and a half
>seems hard to reconcile with his recollection of events. Might the
>correct date for "Conversations with Warne" be September 15, 1977?)
> - Christlieb asked Marsh at the "Warne Out" session whether he
>planned to add piano to the group, and remembers an answer which made
>him sorry he asked. So who came up with adding Levy for "Apogee" ?
>Steely Dan? Warner Brothers? Christlieb? Marsh? (Warne of course
>worked with Lou Levy (for whom I have no use, not even enough to
>re-phrase that as a humble, open-to-question opinion :-) in Supersax,
>and used him on the "All Music" (Nessa; 1976) and "A Ballad Album"
>(Criss Cross; 1983) recordings (the Nessa was the album for which
>excerpting Warne's solos was most useful to me; when I first heard it
>through it was totally ruined by Levy's work - just my opinion, but a
>strong one), but again, something does not quite jibe with Pete
>Christlieb's recollection.
> - "Conversations with Warne", released five years ago, is subtitled
>"Volume 1". Is Criss Cross still intending to release another set?
>
>--
>Henry L.
>hlo...@pipeline.com
>
"Conversations With Warne, Vol.2" is out (CRISS CROSS 1103). The date
given is 9/15/78. Erik Raben's Jazz Records 1942-80 Vol. 3 is vague
about the date of "Apogee". He says 1977/78. Am intrigued by your
vehement dislike of Lou Levy! I suspect Warne preferred to have a piano
in the group - most of his records have one! Every time I saw him, he
had a pianist (never saw him with Levy though!)
jack
Christopher Callahan
Dan--let's get people who wouldn't know about this stuff involved---
Vinnie Tieto
Don't know the recording date, but I purchased it in September or October
of '78, as soon as it came out. I bought it because I was (and am) a
huge Christlieb fan. I have to say, though, that I wasn't that impressed
with Warne Marsh's playing (I haven't heard much earlier stuff by him).
His tone seemed kind of weak and he sort of stumbled through some of the
faster tempos. The liner notes tried to attribute it to his "unique
style" but it just sounded like plain old sloppiness to me. Am I missing
something?
Also, if you like Christlieb, a good recent example of his playing is on
the Lou Levy CD "Lunarcy" (Verve). Totally acoustic and straight-ahead,
lots of good improv. Lou sounds okay, but Christlieb steals the show (of
course).
- vinnie