Cecil Taylor is Overrated
pat_frisco
Anyone who knows me realizes that this is not my opinion, but IS the opinion of
one Jaz Expert, Stanley Dance. Check out (but please don't buy) the latest
issue of Jaz Times for the complete expert rundown of who is underrated and who
is overrated in the neat little world of jazz. I'm not sure what to do now.
This blows my entire conception of who the improvising greats are, knowing now
that Cecil is overrated, then his contemporaries like William Parker, Matt
Shipp, etc.. must be as well. Oh, by the way, a couple of other experts of the
Jaz Police have declared Ornette to be overrated as well. Pat Frisco
zel...@earthlink.net
I don't think so. Technique (and talent) on that level (Cecil's) is
not easy to come by... but you already knew that.
Zelwel
Jazz Dr
Having not yet read the article, I'll put my foot in it and guess this
means that Marilyn Crispell, Myra Melford, Lisle Ellis, Paul Plimley,
Andrew Cyrille, Sunny Murray, Don Pullen, Henry Grimes, John Coltrane,
John Zorn, The AEC and on and on are all overrated hacks but it probably
also means that Wynton and his clones are not regarded highly enough.
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <5qtbag$e...@drn.zippo.com>, Pat Frisco wrote:
> Anyone who knows me realizes that this is not my opinion, but IS the
opinion of
> one Jaz Expert, Stanley Dance. Check out (but please don't buy) the latest
> issue of Jaz Times for the complete expert rundown of who is underrated
and who
> is overrated in the neat little world of jazz. I'm not sure what to do now.
> This blows my entire conception of who the improvising greats are, knowing now
> that Cecil is overrated, then his contemporaries like William Parker, Matt
> Shipp, etc.. must be as well. Oh, by the way, a couple of other experts of the
> Jaz Police have declared Ornette to be overrated as well. Pat Frisco
like the old saying goes:
those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
pcl
Michael Fitzgerald
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 01:17:12 -0600, rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E.
Dinkus) wrote:
>like the old saying goes:
>those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
As a teacher, I take offense at the second part of that statement. As
for the third part....
Mike
David Tenner
In article <5qtbag$e...@drn.zippo.com>, Pat Frisco wrote:
>Anyone who knows me realizes that this is not my opinion, but IS the opinion of
>one Jaz Expert, Stanley Dance. Check out (but please don't buy) the latest
>issue of Jaz Times for the complete expert rundown of who is underrated and who
>is overrated in the neat little world of jazz. I'm not sure what to do now.
>This blows my entire conception of who the improvising greats are, knowing now
>that Cecil is overrated, then his contemporaries like William Parker, Matt
>Shipp, etc.. must be as well. Oh, by the way, a couple of other experts of the
>Jaz Police have declared Ornette to be overrated as well. Pat Frisco
Wow, Stanley Dance thinks Cecil Taylor is overrated? What a surprise! I had
always thought he preferred Taylor to the late Earl Hines. Next thing you'll
be telling me he prefers Benny Carter to Ornette.
David Tenner
ten...@m3.sprynet.com
Dr. Don Koldon
In article
<rinkedinkus-21...@ip141.saint-louis.mo.pub-ip.psi.net>,
rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E. Dinkus) wrote:
>those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
... and those who can't do, teach, or criticize become music industry
executives.
Okay, who wants to tackle the next step down the food chain?
--
DK
Dale Smoak
I can't see why anyone cares what Stanley Dance thinks of Cecil Taylor.
--
Dale Smoak | da...@shore.net
| http://www.shore.net/~dales/
Hillary Brown
In article <koldon-2107...@ip197.schiller-park3.pub-ip.psi.net>,
Those who can't do, teach, criticize, or be music industry executives
become label owners.
Hillary
--
You say Carmina, and I say Carmine-a
You say Burah-na, and I say Burana
Carmina, Carmine-a
Burah-na, Burana
Let's Carl the whole thing Orff
Leon Harris
In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz times, 13
critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated and 5 most underrated jazz
men. As you might imagine, it's an excellent chance for settling scores,
but I'm usually interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
Leon Harris
Leon Harris
In the overrated category, the winner (with 4 votes) was Keith
Jarrett. with Betty Carter, Stanley Clarke, Ornette Coleman, and Stan
Kenton with 3 votes each. Other multiple vote-getters included Ron Carter,
Miles Davis, David Murray, Joshua Redman, and John Zorn.
As far as the underrated list was concerned, there were some nice,
fairly obscure players (Rodney Jones, Paula Owen, Michael Weiss) but
not much in the way of consensus with only Kenny Dorham and Hank Mobley
garnering as many as two votes.
Leon Harris
Chuck Nessa
Hillary Brown wrote:
>
> In article <koldon-2107...@ip197.schiller-park3.pub-ip.psi.net>,
> kol...@mindspring.com (Dr. Don Koldon) wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <rinkedinkus-21...@ip141.saint-louis.mo.pub-ip.psi.net>,
> > rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E. Dinkus) wrote:
> >
> > >those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
> >
> > ... and those who can't do, teach, or criticize become music industry
> > executives.
> >
> > Okay, who wants to tackle the next step down the food chain?
>
> Those who can't do, teach, criticize, or be music industry executives
> become label owners.
>
> Hillary
Chuck Nessa
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <5qtbag$e...@drn.zippo.com> Pat Frisco writes:
>Anyone who knows me realizes that this is not my opinion, but IS the opinion of
>one Jaz Expert, Stanley Dance. Check out (but please don't buy) the latest
>issue of Jaz Times for the complete expert rundown of who is underrated and who
>is overrated in the neat little world of jazz.
Here's my own definitive list:
OVER-RATED
-----------
Wynton Marsalis--puts the anal in banal
Sarah Vaughan--couldn't belch without running a three-octave arpeggio
Chick Corea--Elron cleared his taste out along with his engrams
Jackie MacLean--why bother practicing when you've got tenure?
George Shearing--muzak without the violins
Donald Byrd--deserves his career about as much as David Copperfield
deserves Claudia Schiffer
Ahmad Jamal--if Miles didn't like him he'd be a footnote
George Benson--he didn't sell out; he's always been tasteless
Branford Marsalis--not being as tight-assed as Wynton isn't enough
Pat Metheny--John Tesh with chops
Marian McPartland--everyone on her show has to pass the couch audition
Lennie Tristano--missed the lesson on rests
Miles Davis--Surrey With A Fringe On Top? Hell, why not cut The Hoky Poky?
Charles Mingus--what's with the attitude, Charlie? Smile!
Charlie Parker--nothing Sonny Stitt hasn't done better
Duke Ellington--"Bring me the left side of the menu for starters..."
Louis Armstrong--get your sweat glands checked out, man
NOT UNDER-RATED
Dave Frischberg--sings almost as good as he looks
Ben Sidran--caught the Devil on a slow day, apparently
Mose Allison--someone should tell him blackface died out already
Michael Franks--popsicle this, Mike
Marc Sabatella
Dr. Don Koldon (kol...@mindspring.com) wrote:
> rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E. Dinkus) wrote:
> >those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
> ... and those who can't do, teach, or criticize become music industry
> executives.
> Okay, who wants to tackle the next step down the food chain?
Easy enough: those who can't do any of the above, post to RMB :-)
--
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Ralph Geiger
Beautiful! Allow me to add one more:
Steve Lacy--Hey, I hear he's coming out with a Monk tribute!
--
Ralph Geiger
<gei...@email.unc.edu>
David Tenner
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
> Here's my own definitive list:
>
> OVER-RATED
> -----------
>
> Charlie Parker--nothing Sonny Stitt hasn't done better
>
Lester Young--nothing Paul Quinichette hasn't done better (or was it
Brew Moore?)
Bix Beiderbecke--nothing Andy Secrest hasn't done better (or was it
Jimmy McPartland?)
This is fun...anyone want to continue?
--
David Tenner
ten...@m3.sprynet.com
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <koldon-2107...@ip197.schiller-park3.pub-ip.psi.net>,
kol...@mindspring.com (Dr. Don Koldon) wrote:
> In article
> <rinkedinkus-21...@ip141.saint-louis.mo.pub-ip.psi.net>,
> rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E. Dinkus) wrote:
>
> >those who can, do. those who can't, teach. those who can't teach, criticize.
>
> ... and those who can't do, teach, or criticize become music industry
> executives.
>
> Okay, who wants to tackle the next step down the food chain?
>
> --
> DK
then they become manfred eicher echo-clones!
JFR
In <33d29453...@news.earthlink.net> zel...@earthlink.net writes:
>
>On 20 Jul 1997 08:36:48 -0700, Pat Frisco wrote:
>
opinion of
>>one Jaz Expert, Stanley Dance. Check out (but please don't buy) the
latest
>>issue of Jaz Times for the complete expert rundown of who is
underrated and who
do now.
>>This blows my entire conception of who the improvising greats are,
knowing now
>>that Cecil is overrated, then his contemporaries like William Parker,
Matt
>>Shipp, etc.. must be as well. Oh, by the way, a couple of other
experts of the
>>Jaz Police have declared Ornette to be overrated as well. Pat Frisco
>
>not easy to come by... but you already knew that.
> Zelwel
>
Stanley Dance - he sounds like Stanley Crouch - are they brothers?
Seriously, does this other Stanley have opinions like the more famous
ones (I get all the critics mixed up and try to not pay too much
attention to them anyways)?
John
Wolfram Knauer / Jazz-Institut Darmstadt
ten...@m3.sprynet.com (David Tenner) wrote:
>Wow, Stanley Dance thinks Cecil Taylor is overrated? What a surprise! I had
>always thought he preferred Taylor to the late Earl Hines. Next thing you'll
>be telling me he prefers Benny Carter to Ornette.
>David Tenner
>ten...@m3.sprynet.com
HaHaHa!!!
***
Jazz-Institut Darmstadt, Kasinostrasse 3, D-64293 Darmstadt
ph. ++49 (6151) 13-2877, fax ++49 (6151) 13-3418
e-mail: ja...@stadt.darmstadt.de
homepage: http://www.darmstadt.de/kultur/musik/jazz.html
new address after August 11:
Jazz-Institut Darmstadt, Bessunger Strasse 88d, 64285 Darmstadt
phone: ++49 (6151) 96 37 00, Fax ++49 (6151) 96 37 44
jb...@in219b.iit.edu
In article <5ra71l$2...@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>,
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>
>
> Stanley Dance - he sounds like Stanley Crouch - are they brothers?
> Seriously, does this other Stanley have opinions like the more famous
> ones (I get all the critics mixed up and try to not pay too much
> attention to them anyways)?
Stanley Dance has written a lot of liner notes for
Duke Ellington, I believe he even has a bio on him.
So it was kind of surprising to even see Stanley
know who Cecil is.
Another surprise was in Downbeat, the normally
reactionary John McDonough gave Cecil's Nefertiti
The Beautiful a high mark. Normally anything
out is an automatic low star rating.
Jeff
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
JFR
In <33D71BAA...@email.unc.edu> Ralph Geiger
<gei...@email.unc.edu> writes:
>
>tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu wrote:
>
>> Here's my own definitive list:
>
>
>Steve Lacy--Hey, I hear he's coming out with a Monk tribute!
>
>--
>Ralph Geiger
><gei...@email.unc.edu>
Gosh, Lacy into Monk stuff, how novel? Yet, I would welcome more!!!!
John
Chris Hazell
.. and those who can't do, teach, or criticize and aren't music industry
executives post fatuous replies on newsgroups...
Chris H.
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <5r1hvk$29j0$2...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
MXW...@prodigy.com (Leon Harris) wrote:
> In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz times, 13
> critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated and 5 most underrated jazz
> men. As you might imagine, it's an excellent chance for settling scores,
> but I'm usually interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
> a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
a further list of the overrated:
keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
tolerate.
Dave Sieber
Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
>a further list of the overrated:
>keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
>terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
>his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
>nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
>tolerate.
It's because his head is stuck up his ass -- that sound you hear is him
trying to breath.
--
Dave Sieber
dsi...@terminal-impact.com
http://www.terminal-impact.com
Robert Schuh
Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
>
> In article <5r1hvk$29j0$2...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> MXW...@prodigy.com (Leon Harris) wrote:
>
> > In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz times, 13
> > critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated and 5 most underrated jazz
> > men. As you might imagine, it's an excellent chance for settling scores,
> > but I'm usually interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
> > a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
> keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> tolerate.
It is just like an asshole like yourself to criticize Jarrett for his
vocalizations. Why can't you chicken shits use your real names anyway?
Jarrett's trio settings with DeJohnette and Peacock will go down in
history as some of the best. It is only your loss if you don't listen.
Go back to masterbating with a Coke bottle up your ass while listening
to your Kenny G collection, OK?
--
Robert Schuh
"There can be only one!"
Trane, Jimi, Bird and Jaco were gods!!
Please remove * from name when remailing back
Robert Schuh
Dave Sieber wrote:
>
> Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
>
> >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> >terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> >his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> >nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> >tolerate.
>
> trying to breath.
>
> --
> Dave Sieber
> dsi...@terminal-impact.com
> http://www.terminal-impact.com
What is with all the anti Jarett crap here?
Liberty Ellman
Dave Sieber wrote:
>
> Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
>
> >a further list of the overrated:
> >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> >terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> >his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> >nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> >tolerate.
>
> It's because his head is stuck up his ass -- that sound you hear is him
> trying to breath.
I just want to know why people feel it necessary to belittle the careers
of musicians who have contributed so strongly to the jazz art form.
Weather or not a musician suits any peticular person's taste does not
diminish the value of their lives work. All this anti-hype serves no
purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to succeed.
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <33E185...@ix.netcom.com>, Robert Schuh
<rsc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
> >
> > In article <5r1hvk$29j0$2...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> > MXW...@prodigy.com (Leon Harris) wrote:
> >
> > > In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz times, 13
> > > critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated and 5 most underrated jazz
> > > men. As you might imagine, it's an excellent chance for settling scores,
> > > but I'm usually interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
> > > a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
> > a further list of the overrated:
> > keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> > his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> > nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> > tolerate.
>
> It is just like an asshole like yourself to criticize Jarrett for his
> vocalizations. Why can't you chicken shits use your real names anyway?
> Jarrett's trio settings with DeJohnette and Peacock will go down in
> history as some of the best. It is only your loss if you don't listen.
> Go back to masterbating with a Coke bottle up your ass while listening
> to your Kenny G collection, OK?
why don't you take a remedial spelling course? you also might want to
start reading other people's posts more carefully before responding.
pcl
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <33E0FF...@redgiantrecords.com>, Liberty Ellman
<lib...@redgiantrecords.com> wrote:
> Dave Sieber wrote:
> >
> > Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
> >
> > >a further list of the overrated:
> > >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > >terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> > >his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> > >nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> > >tolerate.
> >
> > It's because his head is stuck up his ass -- that sound you hear is him
> > trying to breath.
> > I recently read the critics choice "over-rated" article in Jazz Times.
> I just want to know why people feel it necessary to belittle the careers
> of musicians who have contributed so strongly to the jazz art form.
> Weather or not a musician suits any peticular person's taste does not
> diminish the value of their lives work. All this anti-hype serves no
> purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to succeed.
i HAVE TO think youve never heard him (jarrett) do his, ah, TING, or you'd
understand. these NOISES' he makes have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with
creativity! sounds like they got more to do with nasal polyps!! and if you
must know, it really FRIES MY POTATO when i hear a FELLOW MUSICIAN JUNK UP
his work with meaningless noise that COULD BE avoided!! sure-kj HAS
contributed to jazz in a big way. this contribution DOES NOT give him
carte-blanche to do his version of ALVIN AND THE GODDAMN CHIPMUNKS on
practically everything he plays!!
pcl
Robert Schuh
Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
>
> In article <33E185...@ix.netcom.com>, Robert Schuh
> <rsc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <5r1hvk$29j0$2...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> > > MXW...@prodigy.com (Leon Harris) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz times, 13
> > > > critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated and 5 most underrated jazz
> > > > men. As you might imagine, it's an excellent chance for settling scores,
> > > > but I'm usually interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
> > > > a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
> > > keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > > terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> > > his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> > > nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> > > tolerate.
> >
> > vocalizations. Why can't you chicken shits use your real names anyway?
> > Jarrett's trio settings with DeJohnette and Peacock will go down in
> > history as some of the best. It is only your loss if you don't listen.
> > Go back to masterbating with a Coke bottle up your ass while listening
> > to your Kenny G collection, OK?
> why don't you take a remedial spelling course? you also might want to
> start reading other people's posts more carefully before responding.
> pcl
Remedial spelling? My god, your butchering of the English language is a
far cry from someone having a typo!
Robert Schuh
Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
>
> In article <33E0FF...@redgiantrecords.com>, Liberty Ellman
> <lib...@redgiantrecords.com> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
> > >
> > > >a further list of the overrated:
> > > >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > > >terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for destroying
> > > >his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle. his
> > > >nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
> > > >tolerate.
> > >
> > > trying to breath.
> > > I recently read the critics choice "over-rated" article in Jazz Times.
> > I just want to know why people feel it necessary to belittle the careers
> > of musicians who have contributed so strongly to the jazz art form.
> > Weather or not a musician suits any peticular person's taste does not
> > diminish the value of their lives work. All this anti-hype serves no
> > purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to succeed.
> i HAVE TO think youve never heard him (jarrett) do his, ah, TING, or you'd
> understand. these NOISES' he makes have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with
> creativity! sounds like they got more to do with nasal polyps!! and if you
> must know, it really FRIES MY POTATO when i hear a FELLOW MUSICIAN JUNK UP
> his work with meaningless noise that COULD BE avoided!! sure-kj HAS
> contributed to jazz in a big way. this contribution DOES NOT give him
> carte-blanche to do his version of ALVIN AND THE GODDAMN CHIPMUNKS on
> practically everything he plays!!
> pcl
I don't even know where to start with this motherfucker. I am at a loss
as to your anger regarding Jarrett's vocalizations while playing.
Jarrett is a motherfucker, simple as that. How well do YOU play Mr. I
Hide Behind My Pathetic Screen Name? You then attempt to flame ME for my
spelling for having a typo of "Jarett" yet YOU completely butcher the
English language! When I read your attempt at a post I have to believe
that you dropped out of school after the 4th grade. I suggest that you
get some writing lessons and figure out that it is music that is
important, not the noises that someone makes. Rink E Dinkus, is that
code for I have a small penis?
Nils G. Jacobson
Rink E. Dinkus (rinke...@earthlink.net) wrote:
: i HAVE TO think youve never heard him (jarrett) do his, ah, TING, or you'd
: understand. these NOISES' he makes have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with
: creativity! sounds like they got more to do with nasal polyps!! and if you
: must know, it really FRIES MY POTATO when i hear a FELLOW MUSICIAN JUNK UP
: his work with meaningless noise that COULD BE avoided!! sure-kj HAS
: contributed to jazz in a big way. this contribution DOES NOT give him
: carte-blanche to do his version of ALVIN AND THE GODDAMN CHIPMUNKS on
: practically everything he plays!!
This is clearly trolling and it seems to be catching some live ones. But
the situation is this: if you can tolerate the noises, you listen to
Jarrett; if you can't, then don't. It doesn't serve anyone to rag on him
endlessly for what I see as a bad habit.
As you probably know, lots of musicians sing while they play. It's a tool
for coherent vocalization. Jarrett just does it louder and more annoying
than most. If you can hear through this and get to the music, then great.
Otherwise, please throw away your Jarrett discs and shut up.
-Nils
stephen
> > > > >a further list of the overrated:
> > > > >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > > purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to
succeed.
you'd
> > understand. these NOISES' he makes have NOTHING WHATSOEVER
Dear Children,
This is all so silly and lame. Mr. Jarrett is a great pianist and his
vocalizing IS distracting. That's life.
I see no cause for such childish rancor from all concerned. Good music
of any sort requires a certain sensitivity of perception which I find sadly
lacking in this discussion. We in the group should try to communicate when
we speak... Just as a good musician attempts to communicate when he/she
plays.
Mother Theresa
Chuck Nessa
The only quarrel I have with this post is the use of the word great
related to Mr Jarret.
Chuck
Dave Sieber
Liberty Ellman wrote in article <33E0FF...@redgiantrecords.com>...
>I just want to know why people feel it necessary to belittle the careers
>of musicians who have contributed so strongly to the jazz art form.
>Weather or not a musician suits any peticular person's taste does not
>diminish the value of their lives work. All this anti-hype serves no
>purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to succeed.
Good advice -- unless you're Keith Jarrett, in which case it doesn't apply.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>stephen wrote:
>>
>> > > > > >a further list of the overrated:
>> > > > > >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
>> > > > purpose except to make it even harder for creative musicians to
>> succeed.
>> you'd
>> > > understand. these NOISES' he makes have NOTHING WHATSOEVER
>>
>> Dear Children,
>>
>> This is all so silly and lame. Mr. Jarrett is a great pianist and his
>> vocalizing IS distracting. That's life.
>> I see no cause for such childish rancor from all concerned. Good music
>> of any sort requires a certain sensitivity of perception which I find sadly
>> lacking in this discussion. We in the group should try to communicate when
>> we speak... Just as a good musician attempts to communicate when he/she
>> plays.
>>
>> Mother Theresa
You guys seem to have forgotten that this is a joke thread.
>The only quarrel I have with this post is the use of the word great
>related to Mr Jarret.
>
>Chuck
See what I mean?
Michel
JFR wrote:
> Stanley Dance - he sounds like Stanley Crouch - are they brothers?
> Seriously, does this other Stanley have opinions like the more famous
> ones (I get all the critics mixed up and try to not pay too much
> attention to them anyways)?
All I knew is that Stanley Dance has written some pretty pathetic
statements in that issue of JazzTimes. Calling Miles' career "aberrant",
blasting Ornette Coleman...
And, even more pathetic, he has Johnny Hodges in his list of underrated
musicians. Now, I LOVE Hodges, I admire him as much as I admire Charlie
Parker. And I know a lot of critics and fans who will tell you more or
less the same. His cd's are widely distributed, he's recognized as one
of the greatest sax player who ever lived, so why call him underrated?
Larry Koenigsberg
I've grown sick of seeing articles at RMB about whatever subject with a
title denigrating Taylor. He is _not_ overrated. I've been listening to
his records, old and new, for years, as well as seen him at the Village
Vanguard and on film, and it's clear that he is a very unusual and
compelling musician even for jazz, which sometimes seems chock-full of
unique individuals.
Far from being overrated, he gets very little airplay and at least in the
past most of his gigs were in Europe. Why anyone would think that public
opinion on this difficult and uncompromising artist evaluates him as
superior to his actual performance is beyond me.
Maybe if a lot of people start responding to this thread with writing about
Keith Jarrett, Wynton Marsalis, and each other, then we will see "Cecil
Taylor is great!" like a billboard (false advertising the contents, as is so
often the case here) throughout RMB. Just a thought...
Larry Koenigsberg (lar...@efn.org)
JFR
In <33E0FF...@redgiantrecords.com> Liberty Ellman
<lib...@redgiantrecords.com> writes:
>
>Dave Sieber wrote:
>>
>> Rink E. Dinkus wrote in article ...
>>
>> >keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
destroying
>> >his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right" strip or a muzzle.
his
>> >nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK it is makes him impossible for me to
>> >tolerate.
>>
>> It's because his head is stuck up his ass -- that sound you hear is
him
>> trying to breath.
>> I recently read the critics choice "over-rated" article in Jazz
Times.
careers
>of musicians who have contributed so strongly to the jazz art form.
>Weather or not a musician suits any peticular person's taste does not
succeed.
>
>
Agreed. This may be a little too harsh. But, I share the frustration
of this listener with trying to appreciate K.J.'s - the artist -
creativity in the middle of whining and other bizarre noises. We have
already discussed this ad nauseum, so that's probably enough said......
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <33E4BF...@amita.montrealnet.ca>,
for...@amita.montrealnet.ca wrote:
first, an apology to the regulars. i didnt mean to give the pot such a
vigorous stir.
now back to the subject. the comic thing here is that, in order for ct to
be "overrated" he first had to achieve a level of notoriety that most
musicians spend their lives chasing after. considering the type of music
he plays, and that as far as i know he's never really done much
compromising, achieving this degree of notoriety is nothing short of
miraculous. the concept of an "overrated" free-improv musician is an
oxymoron that may well be without peer.
pcl
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <5s3kro$ho$1...@haus.efn.org>, nojun...@nospam.com (Larry
Koenigsberg) wrote:
agreed! ct has taken me-and my playing-to places i wouldnt have dared to
even dream of! it's the underlying quality and intensity of his work that
really does it for me. i hope to see him live soon. gotta wait till he
gets back from yoo-rope. regardless-CECIL TAYLOR IS GREAT!!
pcl
Dave Wayne
Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
> the concept of an "overrated" free-improv musician is an
> oxymoron that may well be without peer.
> pcl
I dunno about that... the other day, someone on NPR used the term
"conservative think-tank" and managed somehow not to burst out laughing!
DW
Rink E. Dinkus
yass, yass-yass. that's rich, alright. another favorite is the term, "road
car".outside of the painfully obvious, somebody wanna tell me where ELSE
you'd drive the thing?
pcl
Adam Good
Man, i just saw Cecil Taylor trio last night at the village vanguard.
had never seen him before. it was THE heaviest thing i've ever seen in
my life. no question. i heard nothing but brilliant improvisation, pure
grace. And not a single cliche. i could really go on but i'm too tired.
--
Adam Good, guitar NYC
http://www.tiac.net/users/goodadam
Robert Schuh
Kevin Bresnahan wrote:
>
> Robert Schuh <rsc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
> <33E185...@ix.netcom.com>...
> > Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <5r1hvk$29j0$2...@newsxfs02-int.news.prodigy.com>,
> > > MXW...@prodigy.com (Leon Harris) wrote:
> > >
> > > > In the recent "...Overrated/Underrated..." article in Jazz
> > > > times, 13 critics are asked to name the 5 most overrated
> > > > and 5 most underrated jazz men. As you might imagine,
> > > > it's an excellent chance for settling scores, but I'm usually
> > > > interested in the underrated part, since there's at least
> > > > a chance of being put on to a heretifore unknown player.
> > >
> > > keith jarrett, the george benson of the piano. he sounds like he's
> > > terminally constipated and is singlehandedly responsible for
> > > destroying his own music. maybe he needs a "breath-right"
> > > strip or a muzzle. his nasal off-key WHATEVERTHE FUCK
> > > it is makes him impossible for me to
> > > tolerate.
> >
> > vocalizations. Why can't you chicken shits use your real names anyway?
> > Jarrett's trio settings with DeJohnette and Peacock will go down in
> > history as some of the best. It is only your loss if you don't listen.
> > Go back to masterbating with a Coke bottle up your ass while listening
> > to your Kenny G collection, OK?
> >
>
> an opinion that he is big-time against Jarrett's grunts, That's all.
> He's not the only one who I've read complain about these vocal
> excursions BTW. I definitely find it more difficult to enjoy his
> recordings with the vocalizations goin' on. Same goes for Erroll
> Garner (sp?). Got a thing for Coke bottles? Whew.... nasty!!
>
> Later,
> Kevin
I was hoping the Coke Bottle thing would get a laugh. I used a similar
quote some time back in another newsgroup and got big laughs! :-)
Walter Davis
In article <33EA2A...@po.cwru.edu>,
Steve Cox <s...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>What does this album title mean? Is it from some poem or is it Cecil's
>assertion that everything boils down to just making great beer?
>
I don't know if this is what Cecil meant, but Joe McPhee recently
interpreted this title in a way that made perfect sense to me. The idea
is that it is the act of creating music (i.e the brewing), especially
with others, that is the real joy and beauty, rather than a focus on the
end-product. So, it is in the brewing, not so much the drinking,
luminous. He quoted this as advice to musicians learning to play
improv, along with "just do it, make mistakes, there are no bad notes."
But I'm perfectly content with "everything boils down to just making
great beer".
If you want to see the rest of my interview with Joe, go to
www.irss.unc.edu/wdavis/aim . I don't think I'm a particularly good
interviewer, but Joe has interesting things to say.
-walt
Walter Davis walter...@unc.edu or
Department of Sociology and wda...@irss.unc.edu
Health Data Analyst at the ph: (919) 962-1019
Institute for Research in Social Science fax: (919) 962-4777
UNC - Chapel Hill
Rink E. Dinkus
you got my envy, bubbah! i'm just gonna haveta buy a goddamn planey-tikket
and git over there sos' i can see the maestro do de ting. hial-ah cood
probly float home!! was any other show info given out/mentioned?
pcl
Adam Good
Krall on drums and dominick duvall on bass.
hey, here's a really stoopid question....so is diana krall related to
jackson krall? there was this woman in the front row sitting by herself
right behind cecil but she seemed to be more in cohoots with duvall.
Rink E. Dinkus
beats me! i was just wantin a little advance notice about his next couple
shows-i'd rather not buy my ticket thru the Ben Dover travel agency, dig.
anudder phrendomine sed the sho was great too.
pcl
Adam Good
Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
>
> beats me! i was just wantin a little advance notice about his next couple
> shows-i'd rather not buy my ticket thru the Ben Dover travel agency, dig.
> anudder phrendomine sed the sho was great too.
i see what you're saying...i din't know what you meant. no idea where
he's playing...somtimes people post itineraries online. must be a cecil
website or two.
where does cecil taylor live...NYC??
Karen Molloy
> Rink E. Dinkus wrote:
> >
> > beats me! i was just wantin a little advance notice about his next couple
> > shows-i'd rather not buy my ticket thru the Ben Dover travel agency, dig.
> > anudder phrendomine sed the sho was great too.
>
> i see what you're saying...i din't know what you meant. no idea where
> he's playing...somtimes people post itineraries online. must be a cecil
> website or two.
He's playing in Cambridge, MA on 4-6 September at the Regattabar.
Karen Molloy
--
RS
In article
<rinkedinkus-16...@ip243.saint-louis3.mo.pub-ip.psi.net>,
rinke...@earthlink.net (Rink E. Dinkus) wrote:
>thanks karen!!anybody know if there is such a thing as a ct website? if
>there is, its eluded me!
Several, but try
<http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/ps/efi/mtaylor.html> and
<http://www.acns.nwu.edu/jazz/artists/taylor.cecil/>
as starting points. Confession: both of these will point you at my CT
discography...
rshapiro
bbn
com
Rink E. Dinkus
In article <kmolloy-1408...@p5.ts19.metro.ma.tiac.com>,
kmo...@tiac.net (Karen Molloy) wrote:
thanks karen!!anybody know if there is such a thing as a ct website? if
there is, its eluded me!
pcl